Hey! You took advantage of my prolonged absence trapped in a metal tube hurtling at 37,000 feet above the Atlantic to fill up the last endless thread. Sneaky. You’re making it hard to keep up.
Go ahead. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I’m in Ireland and you’re not, so I don’t care.
Bill, there is no need to lose your long post. Just go back to the screen where you composed it, save your work, sign back in and paste your work.
well yes, you’re right with that… but it’s not like lawmakers can think of every possibly cruelty a person can think of and specifically forbid it (that would only be for very specific and common things). that’s why we have this catch-all term of animal cruelty, after all.
As for wildlife tags… I always wondered if those things don’t make life harder on the critters they’re attached to. especially true for smallish critters (those tags are pretty big usually), and I’ve also wondered about this when I was watching a show about tundra critters, when they were attaching black tags to white snow hens (i think). doesn’t that make them a wee bit too visible?
Can’t agree. It’s just not that big a deal (to the cat, as far as I can tell from direct observation of at least 6 cats–not mine–that I have known before, during and after), and if it means that more people will keep their cats indoors then I’m all for it.
Flame away.
Indeed, as well as infringing upon the rights of those whose religion mandates human sacrifice.
It’s not a trivial concern. There are informal limits on the weight of a tag (usually 5% or less of body mass), and people in general try hard not to kill or harm their study animals! But shit happens. It’s not widely known that the first experimental release of captive-bred black-footed ferrets failed because several animals were killed when dirt compacted under their radio collars as they burrowed and were strangled.
Yeah, that’s just stupid (on the part of the taggers, I mean).
Most farmers where I grew up switched from branding livestock to eartags to show ownership. If millions of livestock are pierced through the ears how can it be a crime for pets?
I can’t be bothered with another animal cruelty argument. declawing isn’t necessary (I’ve seen cats with claw covers, for those who can’t handle their precious furniture scratched), and I just can’t support pointless animal mutilation. But then, like I said, attitudes towards pets are vastly different between the U.S. and Germany, and most of the common practices about pets in the U.S. would never fly in Germany, because it would be considered animal cruelty (or more precisely, it would violate the concept I mentioned earlier. I really need to come up with a good translation for it; after more coffee maybe)
I’ve not known any cows to ever scratch themselves behind their ears with their claws; nor have I ever seen one tear through shrubbery and/or narrow gaps in furniture.
Walton, Walton, Walton! Are you not supposed to be keeping your nose pressed to the grindstone?
;)
Janine (@500):
Yah, I know; I’ve done that before. In this case, though, I got distracted and copied something else before I’d pasted my previous comment, wiping it out of the buffer. C’est la guerre, eh?
Sven (@502):
Sorry, no flame from me. I’ve never had a cat declawed (and mine is a strictly indoor kitty), but I’ve known cats who were, and as you say they didn’t seem any the worse for it. OTOH, the procedure itself, if described, seems pretty awful. On balance, I’d probably support a ban (and one on the other things I mentioned)… but it’s a fairly close call for me, and not something I’d really fight for.
I clicked on the goth kittens link this morning because I thought it would be a cute/funny story that might give the crowd here a chuckle, and then when I read that the groomer involved was being criminally charged, I thought that was a bit harsh. All in all, though, I mostly just thought it was a News of the Weird sort of item.
Interesting; thanks :-) (and I’m glad to hear that I wasn’t just being stupid about worrying about black tags on white birds)
Some suggested themes and names for future thread incarnations follow.
Literary: Where Angels Fear to Thread
Princess Bride: The Thread Pirate Roberts
Shaolin Monk: The Thread-itation Chamber
Kitsch 90’s pop: Right Said Threadactually fuck this it’s crapRobocop: Thread or Alive, You’re Coming With Me
and my personal favorite:
Lord’s Prayer: Give Us This Day Our Daily Thread
We look to be on track for 1000 comments sometime Thursday. Carry on…
Jadehawk:
Not meaning to perpetuate a conversation you’re not really up for (per #506), I nevertheless wanted to clarify my earlier point:
I wasn’t making a whatever-isn’t-explicitly-forbidden-is-permitted argument: Of course, we have to be able to punish unanticipated innovations in evil behavior. But given the context of what’s currently considered acceptable — including cutting off parts of the ears and tails of dogs and cats just so they’ll look “right” in shows — I think this groomer could make the argument that a reasonable person could conclude what she was doing was no less acceptable than unambiguously legal practices.
Punishing her, personally, does nothing to change the context.
And that, as Forrest Gump might put it, is all I have to say about that! (Didn’t mean to start anything unpleasant.)
Terry Pratchett is willing to be an assisted suicide test case.
A tribunal of mercy
As I face Alzheimer’s, I want to die at a time of my choosing. We need a better way of assisting loved ones who wish the same
Terry Pratchett
As a pallid and nervous young journalist, I got to know about suicide. It was part of my regular tasks to sit in at the coroner’s court, where I learned the manifold ways the disturbed human brain can devise to die. Coroners never used the word “insanity”. They preferred the more compassionate verdict that the subject had “taken his life while the balance of his mind was disturbed”. There was ambivalence to the phrase, a suggestion of the winds of fate and overwhelming circumstance. In fact, by now, I have reached the conclusion that a person may make a decision to die because the balance of their mind is level, realistic, pragmatic, stoic and sharp.
And that is why I dislike the term “assisted suicide” applied to the carefully thought-out and weighed-up process of having one’s life ended by gentle medical means.
The people who thus far have made the harrowing trip to Dignitas in Switzerland to die seemed to me to be very firm and methodical of purpose, with a clear prima-face case for wanting their death to be on their own terms. In short, their mind may well be in better balance than the world around them.
I got involved in the debate surrounding “assisted death” by accident, after taking a long and informed look at my future as someone with Alzheimer’s. As a result of my “coming out” about the disease, I now have contacts in medical research industries all over the world, and I have no reason to believe that a “cure” is imminent.
And so I have vowed that rather than let Alzheimer’s take me, I would take it. I would live my life as ever to the full and die, before the disease mounted its last attack, in my own home, in a chair on the lawn, with a brandy in my hand to wash down whatever modern version of the Brompton Cocktail some helpful medic could supply. And with Thomas Tallis on my iPod, I would shake hands with Death.
This seems to me quite a reasonable and sensible decision for someone with a serious, incurable and debilitating disease to elect for a medically assisted death by appointment.
The Care not Killing Alliance assures us that no one need consider a voluntary death of any sort since care is always available. This is questionable. Medicine is keeping more and more people alive, all requiring more and more care. Alzheimer’s and other dementias place a huge care burden on the country. A burden that falls initially on the next of kin who may even be elderly and, indeed, be in need of some sort of care themselves.
A major objection frequently flourished by opponents of “assisted dying” is that elderly people might be illegally persuaded into “asking” for assisted death. Could be, but the Journal of Medical Ethics reported in 2007 that there was no evidence of the abuse of vulnerable patients in Oregon where assisted dying is currently legal. I don’t see why things should be any different here.
Last year, the government finally published guidelines on dealing with assisted death. They did not appear to satisfy anybody. It seems that those wishing to assist a friend or relative to die would have to meet a large number of criteria in order to escape the chance of prosecution for murder. As laid out, the best anyone can do is keep within the rules and hope for the best.
That’s why I and others have suggested some kind of strictly non-aggressive tribunal that would establish the facts of the case well before the assisted death takes place. The members of the tribunal would be acting for the good of society, as well as that of applicants, to ensure they are of sound and informed mind, firm in their purpose, suffering from a life-threatening and incurable disease and not under the influence of a third party. I would suggest there should be a lawyer, one with expertise in dynastic family affairs who has become good at recognising whether there is outside pressure. And a medical practitioner experienced in dealing with the complexities of serious long-term illnesses.
I would also suggest that all those on the tribunal are over 45, by which time they may have acquired the gift of wisdom, because wisdom and compassion should in this tribunal stand side-by-side with the law. The tribunal would also have to be a check on those seeking death for reasons that reasonable people may consider trivial or transient distress. If we are to live in a world where a socially acceptable “early death” can be allowed, it must be allowed as a result of careful consideration.
I would like to die peacefully before the disease takes me over. I hope that will not be for some time, because if I knew that I could die at any time I wanted, then suddenly every day would be as precious as a million pounds. If I knew that I could die, I would live. My life, my death, my choice.
• This is an edited excerpt from Terry Pratchett’s Richard Dimbleby lecture for 2010, delivered on Monday 1 February 2010. Read an extended version of the lecture in G2
Apologies if this has already been pointed out (I’ve kept up with about 90% of this thread, but I might have missed a relevant post here or there), but remember that absolutely horrible and thoroughly discredited article published by the Lancet in 1998 that attempted to link vaccines to autism?
Well, it should come to no-one’s surprise that the Lancet has retracted the study.
This is long overdue, but if nothing else it is at least very public and publicly damning to the anti-vax movement, and I say “huzzah!”
The total stupidity and complete incompetence of the clewless fools who run Sciborg continues:
From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Feb 2 21:33:26 2010 [redacted] Received: from mail-pz0-f107.google.com ([209.85.222.107]) by [redacted] with ESMTP; 02 Feb 2010 20:33:03 +0000 Received: by pzk5 with SMTP id 5so76075pzk.26 for <blf@[redacted]>; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 12:33:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.60.14 with SMTP id i14mr4285336wfa.261.1265142781790; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 12:33:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.60.14 with SMTP id i14mr5524268wfa.261; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 12:33:01 -0800 (PST) From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <[email protected]> To: blf@[redacted] X-Failed-Recipients: [email protected] Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure) Message-ID: <[email protected]> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:33:01 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printableFor fucks sake, you fucking brainless twits, get a fucking clew!
Yet they waited until there was a General Medical Council finding of misconduct against Wakefield to do so. Seeing as the report was thoroughly discredited long before then, this is no credit to a “respected medical journal”. It appears to be little more than saving face, as opposed to caring about the accuracy and authenticity of their studies.
No argument… The Lancet should have done this years ago… their actions (or, more accurately, failure to act) are reprehensible.
Nonetheless, the facts and the headline are getting some real press and that’s a good thing, in my opinion.
Completely OT:
Nerd of RedHead! Help!
IIRC you are a chemist, right? Would you be willing to kindly help me with a problem? A protocol I am using calls for using a 120% KOH solution. I warmed up the water slightly when I was making it because I found that it assisted solution. But now I can’t pipette it out (using a plastic pipette or a micro-pipette tip). If it’s warm, the pipette is bending. If the temperature drops even by a couple of degrees, the KOH is falling out of solution. When I pipette it out, it is crystalizing and solidifying inside the pipette. Can you offer any insight?
Celtic_Evolution (@516):
It has! Neener, neener, neener!!
That said, my mention of it got lost in a gyre of jabberwocks and kittens; you, they pay attention to!
;^)
I was just pointed to this on another blog, and it seems like an appropriate coda to some of the discussions of the last week. I have no interest in starting that particular discussion back up again; it’s just a nice dissection of the issue by someone who writes well if anyone is interested in reading about it further. (the post is titled “Since when is being criticized like having your limbs blown off by a landmine?”)
we just had to have several of my cat’s teeth pulled, because their decay was affecting her ability to eat – Bill Dauphin, OM
Well, commiserations from my dog to your cat! Said dog just had four teeth taken out, because of tartar build-up. The vet said this is due to diet: most dogs, including ours, don’t get the raw meat and bones they are adapted to eat. Still, given that the average lifespan of a wild wolf is estimated at 8 years, and our dog is 10 and looks good for a few years yet, I think she’s getting a reasonable deal. She seemed completely over the extraction after 24 hours, anyway – shovelling her grub down at maximum speed as usual.
Carlie, that reminds me of why I use the word bash in a very specific case, when a person is physically assaulted. It drives me up when a speech is called a bashing. While words help to create a hostile environment,it is still not the same as a boot to the ribs.
It has always annoyed me when I see a person preface their comment with, “I know I will be attacked for saying this…” It struck be as being a dishonest form of arguing.
Kausik Datta
Well, first of all, you can’t make a 120% solution. This would require 120 g KOH per 100 g of solution (g KOH plus g water). Probably a typo, where 12.0% solution is used (that should be 2-3 M). If you used 120 g KOH and 100 g water, you would end up with a very viscous 55% solution. The commercial stuff we use here is only 50%. If you can give me some more information, I might be able to determine what happened.
Dammit.
‘Tis the peril of posting in the maelstrom of the never-ending thread… I myself posted a link to what I thought was a fairly interesting study on the Evolution of Adaptive Behaviour in Robots by Means of Darwinian Selection in the last incarnation of “the thread” that I thought might provoke some interesting conversation… but alas, I was mistaken.
I don’t take it too personally… lots of topics flying by in the endless thread… ;^)
Thank you, NoR, for responding. Can I get a PDF across to you in some way? This has the protocol that I am following. The assay I am doing is for chitin; the KOH (the protocol asks for dissolving 120g of KOH in 100ml of water) is used to deacetylate chitin into insoluble chitosan. My email address is kdatta1 at jhmi dot edu. May I request you to send a blank email so that I can attach a PDF and send it to you?
That’s about the upper limit for solubility of KOH at 25 deg C – 21M!!!!!!
Nerd’s answers will no doubt be more helpful than mine, but since I’m around:
1. I would avoid using a pipette – your solution is pretty saturated and putting it in a thin capillary with a lot of surface area will pretty much guarantee crystallisation. Use a measuring cylinder if you can, and keep the solution at 40 deg C or so. Or weigh it.
2. Is it absolutely necessary to be 120% (I assume weight for weight)? If you go to 100%, it becomes more workable.
3. Safety – I presume you know this, but just in case, KOH going into water is quite exothermic, so watch out for large amounts of heat generation.
What experiment are you doing?
We can always try…
Animal keeping [ad]just[ed] to the species…
…species-specific petkeeping & animal husbandry…
…species-fitting…
…according to the requirements of each species…
:-)
The funny thing is that, when we did molecular dating, it turned out that dates conforming rather closely to the fossil record come out of it as soon as enough calibration points are used and some of them have maximum and not just minimum ages. There’s nothing wrong with the method, it merely needs to be calibrated properly, and usually it isn’t.
(In case anyone else is reading this, molecular dating would only give relative dates on its own, and even that would only work under the demonstrably wrong assumption of a current rate of evolution. Therefore, calibration points are required – several branching points in the tree need to be assigned a minimum and/or maximum age* a priori, and the program then tries to work out the ages of the other nodes. Calibration points tend to come from the fossil record… and the gene jockeys tend to be poorly acquainted with it, often taking their information from way outdated compendia that don’t explain any context and hardly any uncertainties.)
* Or a normal distribution of ages, or a lognormal one, and so on and so forth. A lot of things have become possible that hadn’t yet been invented when we wrote that paper.
Uh…
You tried to contact the webmaster, and you were told “the group you tried to contact doesn’t exist”???
Mr. Fire:
That’s my question, too. Unfortunately, the source papers for this assay don’t mention any of that. I am extracting chitin from fungi as well as infected lung, and the KOH step is to deacetylate the chitin into an insoluble chitosan. If 100% KOH would work, I would be so there.
Kausik:
To corroborate what Nerd said, I found this patent application in which only 40-55% NaOH is used.
Hope that’s of some use.
Mr. Fire, thank you for that link to the patent. Unfortunately, I am not enough a chemist to know how this method would differ from the published method that I was using – particularly since getting the chitosan is but the primary step to further reactions downstream prior to quantification. Let me copy-paste from the method that I have:
If this means 120 g KOH per 100 ml solution, it… most likely still wouldn’t work, so I guess it’s a typo. I mean, trying to suspend anything in such a concentrated solution would make the KOH crystallize out, if the solution can exist in the first place.
KOH has a molar mass of 56. 112 g KOH are therefore 2 mol… that dissolved in 100 ml water would be a 20 M solution… or pretty much what comment 528 says. It’s possible in principle, but write to the authors and ask if it’s a typo for 12.0 or something.
I wish it were, David. I have 6 different papers with the exact same protocol, and the earliest one dates back to 1975. So it would appear that people have been using this method, but how they get by the difficulties in this particular step – I haven’t a clue. Five of my precious samples were ruined today. I am currently deep in the doldrums.
No, in much less if 100 ml of solution are supposed to result. What is the volume of 120 g dry KOH? …Oh, wait… the density of KOH is a bit over 2 g per ml, so 120 g would be 60 ml. Dissolving that in somewhat but not much more than 40 ml of water might be just possible if you keep it hot.
This could explain why the water didn’t simply boil away when they heated it to 130 °C. They say they still had an “alkaline solution” afterwards.
#520 Kausik Datta
KOH solution
To state a blinding glimpse of the obvious:
You have a powerful chemical there. It will attack human skin and muscle and cause permanent damage to sight. It reacts vigorously with a number of materials. Just dissolving it in water will generate a lot of heat. Serious accidents have taken place handling KOH and its solutions.
You will have a SAFETY DATA SHEET (or whatever it is called locally).
READ IT, BELIEVE IT, ACT ON IT.
Hopefully, you will have a risk assessment for the work you are doing. If you don’t, insist a suitably qualified and experienced person prepares one to cover the work you are doing. Not an all-purpose, MSDS. What you will do, how you will do it. You personally should discuss the hazards and risks with this person. Make sure you understand what you are doing, why you are doing it and how to be sure that you are doing it safely.
In the UK this is required by law under Health and Safety etc. at Work Act, and in particular, the Control of Substances Hazardous to Health (COSHH) Regulations.
Unless you are in a third world country, you will have comparable laws.
It seems to me (from the questions you are asking) that you do not understand what you are doing (please take that as being no more than a statement of fact).
PLEASE stop and find out.
I’m sorry guys, good-meaning advice on a website does not fit the bill.
THIS COULD BE DOUBLE PLUS UNGOOD.
Ok, completely OT but this is the place for that and I feel a need to rant.
I am a lawyer. In Australia, you have two options for signing affidavits – you can swear them (by god) or you can affirm them (not by god).
Probably more than half of my colleagues just automatically delete the affirm option without even asking the witness which they’d rather do.
I’ve handed draft affidavits to supervisors to check (I’m pretty junior) where I have asked the witness and they’ve elected to affirm and had them returned to me with “affirm” corrected to “swear”.
I’ve also noticed that one of the partners feels it necessary to make a big song and dance about the fact that he affirms affidavits (partners have to do a lot of them). So I’m not the only one that this assumption annoys.
Anyway… that’s my rant for the day.
#536
While I was prepaeing this, several posts have come up. It seems you are using limited quantities of solution. This is part of the process of reducing risk.
However, after several failures, I believe it is time you stopped, had a good think, and got formal advice that someone will stand by in court and for which the person has adequate insurance.
That does seem like an insanely large amount of KOH. Given that a 5% wt/vol solution gives a pH of close to 12, saying it’s “still alkaline” is a bit of an understatement. Honestly, my guess is that if several papers say the exact same thing, they’ve just copied off of each other and perpetuated a potential typo, while mentally inserting a decimal without realizing it. I’d also suggest stopping for now and contacting one of the prior authors.
Yes, dissolving it has not been so much of a problem as has been keeping it in solution! It falls out of solution at the slightest pretext, even when I am trying to pick up 3 ml to put into my tubes!
Only if NoR or someone could give me an idea if the same reaction would work with a less concentrated KOH solution.
Alan B:
Thank you for giving me a much needed laughter at the end of a what turned out to be unproductive day. But I appreciate your concern, and yes, I am aware of the potential safety issues. I have been in this business for quite some time, and my present predicament is of a different, very specific nature.
Carlie:
Absolutely my next step. Though 12% (in place of 120%) would not work. From the patent link Mr. Fire provided me, they use NaOH (instead of KOH) at 55-70% (wt/vol) for extracting chitosan from chitin.
But you certainly don’t need a more concentrated solution of KOH than of NaOH – KOH is a slightly stronger base, not weaker. Perhaps try 40 % wt/vol? If that doesn’t work, 50?
And now for something completely different. In the general category of the b******g obvious:
“Blood dripping through office ceiling sparks police murder hunt.”
I guess it might, at that!!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1248014/Blood-dripping-office-ceiling-sparks-police-murder-hunt.html?ITO=1708&referrer=yahoo
I think I got Kausik straightened out (after taking the Redhead to the train station). He should be adding the 120 g KOH to 100 mL of water. He should end up with about 160 mL or so of solution. It is a 55% solution (120 g KOH/ (120 g KOH + 100 g water)
In the general category of just plain STUPID:
Tesco shopper, 24, forced to show ID… because she was ‘too young to buy slice of QUICHE’
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1247925/Girl-told-ID-buy-QUICHE-Tesco-looked-21.html?ITO=1708&referrer=yahoo#ixzz0eQVep8vw
(Background: stores are running scared because the
StasiBritish Government imposes swingeing penalties on shops that sell hazardous goods such as knives; plastic knives, fork and spoons; tobacco products; alcohol; boxes of eggs and bags of flour on Saturdays (where they might be used to throw at police or at other football supporters) etc. etc. The law is that you must be over 18 (although I do not know the law which makes it illegal to sell plastic spoons, eggs or flour). The Governement has threatened shopkeepers and cashiers so badly that they are demanding proof of age if they think you might be under 25. I can only assume that a slice of quiche is such a risk to health that the public must be protected from themselves.)Another example from the same article:
Beware: The idiots are running the assylum over here!
Alan B (#545)
Well, if she un-baked the quiche, she might have gotten her hands on both flour and eggs. Did you ever think of that?!
X-D
<headdesk>
#546 A. Noyd
You may have cracked it!
routine update
It looks like there is no longer any immediate danger of asymptote. So that’s good.
22038
bah! munged the link and didn;t preview
#544 Nerd of Redhead, OM
It seems to me (and has done for many years) that we have a fundametal problem with quoting solution strengths as “%”, especially for strong solutions. There are better (i.e. clearly defined and hence repeatable) ways of expressing solution strengths such as:
g per kg (or litre) of water
g per litre of solution
Molar or Molal (although this will lead to total confusion)
mole fraction – possibly the best for strong solutions.
(In a nuclear power plant we were more used to ppm and ppb i.e. mg/kg and µg/kg, respectively.)
On a different but related sunject, do you know what the strength is of concentrated HCl? IIRC it is quoted almost universally as 30% (or thereabouts). 30% of what?
Also, when using HCl for checking for carbonates we are told to use 5% HCl. Again, anyone know what this means? (It matters because we are told that dolomite hardly fizzes unless finely divided or stronger acid is used. If the original “5%” was incorrectly made up then we may be sowing confusion).
With that I must awa’ to my warm bed.
In the end, this is probably the best advice we could give you. You’re basically handling Drano here.
But if you really have to do it and you’re working with only 3mL solution, consider combining the chitin, KOH, and water at the same time, using only enough KOH and water so as to make that 3mL, 120% solution in situ when you heat it. I’m pretty sure it won’t make much of a difference.
Have you tried swizzling it vigorously with a swizzlestick?
That works sometimes. Or, bang it with a butterknife.
Alan B, I taught general chemistry for many years. Percent solution is defined as grams solute per 100 g of solution. So, for 30 hydrochloric acid, this means 30 g of HCl (hydrogen chloride) per 100 g solution. The unspoken solvent is always water unless specified. For example, I could have a 10% solution of DMF in toluene.
It is useful, in that I don’t have to think much to make a 5% solution, from a 30% solution. 15 g of the 30% solution (4.5 g solute) and dilute to 90 g total with 75 g of water.
Sven DiMilo | February 2, 2010 7:42 PM:
Sven, your link is b0rk3n. It should go here.
On the other hand, nothin from nothin leaves nothin.
Sadly, this hysteria has been common practice in the US for 20 years. When I was a teen working as a cashier at a supermarket, I was required to ask for ID from every single person in the party, if any of them looked underage. Yes, even if it was obvious that it was a mother with her children (they could be teens, you know, putting her up to buying them booze).
Apparently it never occurs to the shopkeepers that people who really are trying to buy booze for kiddies aren’t going to drag the kiddies into the store with them .
In most every grocery store I shop at now, there are signs proclaiming that I should be prepared to give identification if I look under 40.
What’s worse, some of the stores have cash registers obviously programmed to “catch out” any clerks that just make up a birthdate, because the young workers are obsessed with entering one’s real birth date. They think nothing of saying – in a loud voice audible to everyone – “Date of birth?” – to women obviously in their 60s and 70s who feel quite indignant about having to announce their birth date publicly.
[b]Thank you, thank you, thank you![/b]
*bows to all
[b]Thank you especially to Nerd of Redhead, Mr. Fire and David M.[/b] The patent that Mr. Fire provided, a remark from David and the discussion with NoR – everything contributed to an epiphany which made me go back to the original 1975 paper. There they wrote “120g KOH in 100ml of water”, NOT 120% ([i]that[/i] was the interpretation of a more recent French paper that I was following).
From what David pointed out upthread, adding 120g of KOH in 100ml of water makes for a 75% (w/v) solution (120g of KOH/approx. 60ml of volume occupied by the 120g of KOH + 100ml of water) (*nods to David M).
Using simple wt. calculations that NoR indicated (Sorry I usually don’t do calculations based on the wt. of the solvent), it is a 55% (w/w) solution (*nods to NoR).
Either way, this concentration is more believable, particularly since the patent that Mr. Fire provided mentions using 55-70% NaOH for making chitosan from chitin.
My problem is, therefore, resolved, and what’s more, I may not have lost the samples that I thought I did. [b]Yay!![/b]
And Alan B. Thank you, too. I absolutely agree about not using % as a concentration estimator; much less ambiguous to quote the actual amounts in the paper.
I almost wondered if they meant 120 in 100 as “120%”, and then thought no, couldn’t be. I guess it could! Glad Nerd figured it out.
I have noticed that older papers tend to give more information about procedures; I think it’s that space is so dear now that methods get abbreviated to the point of being almost incomprehensible. Or in some cases, totally incomprehensible.
Damn BBcode! Damn my inability to check that the text-formatting toolbar (awesome BTW) had BBcode selected instead of HTML! Damn my laziness in not putting the HTML codes by hand! Damn! Damn! Damn!
*Whew!! That’s out then.
Now, properly, Thank you NoR, David M and Mr. Fire, not to forget Alan B.
Chemical Abstracts prior to WWII would often provide a terse summary of experimental procedures. That was very useful, as we didn’t always need the original paper (which might be in a foreign language) to make a little of something. After WWII, there were so many papers being abstracted per year, they stopped doing that. Then we had to obtain the original paper. At the moment, the abstracts are just copied from the papers themselves. I think last year they abstracted 1.5 million plus papers, so I can understand the need for simplification.
@Janine MOFMA, OM #515, Re: A tribunal of mercy
This part
left me in tears. Powerful stuff. Thank you for bringing it to our attention.
Lynna, sent a little gift your way. Your instructions made it easy.
Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | February 2, 2010 12:13 AM
For the record (and I believe I’ve noted this before), the person who brought up book sales and whom Gee instructed not to be “so fucking impertinent” was not Ichthyic.
not only that, but everything Gee said about me in that link Owlmirror provided was utter hyperbole.
It’s easy enough to see what I actually said in the original thread, and most will realize he was merely deflecting having to defend anything he said about Dawkins or religion.
again, I found this weaseling very unbecoming someone who is a senior editor of Nature, of all things.
As someone else mentioned, I’d hate to have a paper reviewed for publication by that guy.
Actually it should be The Malazan Book of the Fallen.
@Janine MOFMA, OM #515, Re: A tribunal of mercy
My grandmother always insisted that she’d go on her own terms if she thought her mind was slipping or if her body stopped being useful. She had my father make up a very strongly worded “do not do anything to keep me alive” card that she wore on a chain around her neck for years once she considered her self frail.
Unfortunately, she (and we) didn’t notice her mind was going until it was already gone.
Sadly, the problem with Alzheimers and dementia is that the final assault tends to sneak up on you. And then it’s too late.
You first ;) (“bigot” was a joke too)
I know that’s what you meant. But the point was that that lady is also considered an artist of the latter kind so that’s kind of her slumming on the polka shit, if you want to see it that way. Maybe I’m just imagining it but IMO there’s a certain “jay nay sez quay” compared to the regular polka shit. But whatever, keep on hating the polka shit.
No problem Kausik. Good luck with that witches’ brew.
Aw. Ain’t hatin’.
Please understand; it’s a cultural divide.
I was brainwashed as a child and youth to associate the word “polka” with this guy:
OK?
Josh @557,
The poor clerks are just trying not to go to jail. When the cops sent an underage kid through my line at Wal-mart I would have sworn he was at least 30, but when I carded him he turned out to be 16. If I had sold him the beer he was trying to buy, they would have taken me out of the store in handcuffs and I would personally have to pay a very large fine in addition to the punishment Wal-mart would have been subjected to. Two cashiers were arrested while I worked at Wal-mart. Both failed to card kids sent in by the police.
Pygmy Loris,
I understand that. Did you think I was disagreeing? Notice that in my post, I talked about clerks refusing to sell to someone who *was* of the appropriate age. The example I gave was of when I, too, was a cashier, having to refuse to sell to a mother who was over 21, but whose kids were not. That’s a different story.
I’m not disputing that clerks need to card people. I’m disputing that it makes sense to have to card everyone in the party, no matter how ridiculous the circumstances. And though I can’t be sure, I don’t know of any state law that bars selling alcohol to a legal adult simply because there are others in the party who may not be (I’m willing to be wrong, of course!).
Again, you don’t have to talk me into it – I know what your job was like because I’ve done it to:)
For the record, this is the “obnoxious” email I sent to Greg Laden (in response to one about a technical issue) after he implied that I was an antisemite:
What you implied was horrible. Why the hell do you think I reacted so strongly to what Henry Gee said? It’s probably the worst accusation I can think of. I can’t believe you said that. We don’t have a nascent friendship. I want nothing to do with you right now.
I would make some joke about how some people might justifiably come to believe that Laden likes to rape ducklings…I mean I personally don’t think so, though the evidence does appear to suggest it… But I’m far too upset at the moment.
Please carry on.
Josh,
Honestly, I’m not sure what I thought. I just had a moment where I remembered irate customers who didn’t have ID on them yelling at me about how they’re in their 30s or what have you and I got all defensive. We also weren’t supposed to sell to people who were visibly drunk, and when I refused one guy he tried to grab me over the register. Sometimes I would card someone who was underage and they’d beg me to let them have cigarettes or alcohol. Even some of them became physically aggressive. Luckily, every incident I had was witnessed by other customers or other cashiers, and I witnessed incidents between other cashiers and customers.
Pygmy, I know what you’re talking about. The clerk always has to take shit from the customer, and shit from management. Thank frak my days as a cashier are behind me (I hope yours, too!). Ever waited tables? We could trade some real war stories!
If the police are concerned about shoulder-tapping (i.e., underage drinkers getting legal adults to procure alcohol for them), they should set up stings to target the purchasers, not the clerks. If the clerks card, that ought to be enough to protect them.
Josh,
Never worked as a server; the only food service I did was fast food for a couple of years and I hated every freaking minute!
Miki Z,
I can’t speak for anyone else, but we weren’t liable for this “shoulder-tapping,” just selling to actual minors. The only place I’ve worked where I sold cigarettes and liquor was Wal-mart, so I had the advantage that every time I asked for ID it was on camera (like everything else I did)!
Thank you, Nerd! It only me took three days to post instructions.
I think I didn’t want to think about it long enough to figure it out. I’m having trouble facing the whole problem head-on. If I avert my gaze, maybe it’ll go away? Nope, probably doesn’t work that way.
For the record, this is the “obnoxious” email I sent to Greg Laden (in response to one about a technical issue) after he implied that I was an antisemite:
wth?
I must have missed that whole exchange.
when did Greg imply you were an antisemite?
was it simply because you were focusing on Gee?
Lynna,
Do you have any idea whether you lost your memory after the fact or just didn’t form the memories at all? (retrograde vs. anterograde)
As comfortable as averting the gaze may be, sadly it doesn’t work — you eventually forget you’re averting your gaze at all, and this just causes more trouble. Sounds like you already know, of course.
Ichthyic @578, Greg didn’t, as such, in this comment:
Honestly, I can’t know. He hasn’t explained it.
End of this comment:
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/01/should_just_anyone_be_allowed_1.php#comment-2246278
What? What do you think he was suggesting there, John?
That Brutus is an honorable man?
holy crap, that thread sure got juicy after I left it!
for those unawares…
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/01/should_just_anyone_be_allowed_1.php
SC, I’m suggesting Greg insinuated it (as in that he claimed that the evidence pointed that way), but simultaneously ostensibly repudiated that he sees it that way himself.
I gotta go with SC here John.
to me that says:
“Not that I’M calling you an anti-semite, mind you, but the things you say and do sure make it seem like you are one.”
yes, he called her antisemitic, based on her approach and writing, and I rather think the reason he did that was simply because he was tired of the discussion, and was probably hoping SC would leave in a huff.
boy, did that backfire, and rightly so.
Deep Rifts.
Well, John, I’d like to be able to take your interpretation seriously, but unfortunately much of your commentary together with this statement could lead some people to assume that you have some serious mental problems to deal with. I’m not saying that, but I just want you to know that it could look this way. (I don’t happen to think it is the case.)
It’s not worth it, IMO. Can Laden actually clearly argue for a case as opposed to stringing together non-sequiturs?
This isn’t funny, John.
Yep! For months now…
The original problem has long since been sorted out (thanks, I suspect, to Pee Zed).
I’ve been periodically sending test e-mails to try and check whether or the clowns every actually do anything or just suck up the Sciborg’s money. During that time, the nature of the failure (bounce-back) may have changed, but for at least the last month, it’s been this insane dribble about being unable to post to a Generalissimo Google™ Group.
Keep in mind <[email protected]> is a publicly-listed contact e-mail address at http://scienceblogs.com/channel/about.php#contact albeit the COMPLETE FUCKING INCOMPETENT CLEWLESS IDIOTS have even managed to screw that up—the links on that page are of the form:
It’s blatantly obvious these jerks don’t know what they are doing, DON’T BOTHER TO TEST, and are incapable of finding their way out of wet paper bag.
Much of his commentary together with this recent statement could lead some people to assume that he has some serious logical issues to deal with. I’m not saying that, but I just want him to know that it could look this way. (I don’t happen to think it is the case.)
[Sorry. I’m furious. I’ll stop now.]
SC,
No, it’s not funny, and I guess I fail at sardonicism.
I get that you’re furious, and I think with good reason.
Sorry, John. I really appreciate your comments over there, btw.
Did Laden just Banhammer you SC???
I understand you’re rightly angry, and I did make some commentary there to attack greg’s antisemitic remark, but I find it utterly amusing that the man, after jumping in with both feet but forgetting to bring his brain along, frackin banhammers you!
wow.
I think I would light up a ciggy at this point, if I smoked.
And Ichthyic, in reference to your comments on the other thread here: Awwwwww. Made me smile.
SC,
I haven’t followed the conversation at Laden’s blog, but I am really angry that he would call you an anti-semite, however obliquely. Your commentary has always made me admire you for standing up against misogyny and bigotry. Laden is wrong here and he needs to apologize.
I guess so, prompted by my “obnoxious” email, apparently. The sad thing is that he still doesn’t seem to recognize the seriousness of what he (or Gee, more plainly but more generally) implied.
Damn. I have not followed what happened at that blog. Tomorrow, I will have to pick through the wreckage.
Oh, those lovable Baptists. Why do people pick on them so when they are out gathering young fruit for their child garden:
I have decidedly mixed feelings (is that an internally consistent phrase?) about adoptions of kids with living parents, particularly foreign adoptions, but under no meaning of the word ‘orphan’ in English does this work, and the baptists have been bleating “We were saving orphans!” loudly.
I guess so, prompted by my “obnoxious” email, apparently. The sad thing is that he still doesn’t seem to recognize the seriousness of what he (or Gee, more plainly but more generally) implied.
I hadn’t even realized that Gee had called me an antisemite on his blog after that pharyngula thread months and months ago, or I would have been just as indignant about it as you are having greg imply it now.
I think Gee’s. then, was even a more blatant attempt at poisoning the well than Greg’s was though.
i just goes to show that no matter what your position of responsibility, no matter how much experience you have in communicating your ideas, we can all be entire asshats at times.
I’m sure Greg will offer some kind of notpology, much like Henry’s, in the next day or so.
I’m tired of arguing with the likes of them, frankly.
I think Greg has a pattern of making unnecessarily cryptic remarks, and then refusing to follow up on them. Much of his commentary together with his recent statement could lead some people to assume that he’s doing it to make other people feel stupid and/or to make himself look smarter. I’m not saying that he is, just that it could look this way, mind you. Normally it’s just annoying, not full-blown offensive.
Sorry if this seems concern-trollish, but I’m actually a bit concerned that you’re letting his comment get to you so much. You have every right to be furious, but not worth it, imo, for something so lame and oblivious.
And even if that part of it wasn’t funny, this was pretty funny:
*that would be Paul W. WTF?
Seen this one yet ?
http://scienceblogs.com/grrlscientist/2010/01/newly_described_bird-like_dino.php?utm_source=readerspicks&utm_medium=link
Off to work…
Excellent interview with Jerry Coyne on the latest episode of Freethought radio (Starting at about 19:45). Strangely, I cannot find any reference to this interview on whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com .
This episode of Freethought Radio also contains an excellent reading of James Wood’s excellent NYT op-ed Between God And A Hard Place, starting at about 6:40
Annie Laurie also reports on this awful case of a rape victim receiving 101 lashes for becoming pregnant, and discusses the role of religion in such horrible parodies of justice.
Next week Freethought radio will have an interview with Richard Dawkins.
But though you may avert your gaze, we shall still smother you with love! and concern! and any remotely related tips we can find! and other stuff like that!
Oh, wait, we’re supposed to be an uncivil evil godless horde around here. Um, fuck off, ya soddy git! (*psst* – we’ll drop by with the casseroles later)
windy | February 3, 2010 4:19 AM:
(Links added by me. Paul’s comment is a worthwhile description of how Pharyngula works – or, at least, how it should work.)
The natural conclusion: Sometimes, it does not actually matter whether you are as aggressive as Salty Current(0) or as nice as Paul W. Sometimes, people find your words offensive because of the content, not the form. Some people are offended by facts, not by the way they are presented.
(Denial of this reality is one of the more infuriating aspects of framesters like Chris Mooney.)
(0) Apropos of nothing, SC’s blog is the top google link for “Salty Current”.
I don’t read Greg Laden’s blog very often. His post are occasionally interesting, but generally I leave them feeling that I’ve wasted time and learned nothing. I agree that he’s often very cryptic, which is not the best quality for a blogger.
Anyway, it didn’t take long to give up reading the comments on his recent rug-pissing post, so perhaps I’m out out of my element here, like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie… but I digress.
And whomever? Could he be more vague? He forgot to mention “etc., &c., and others, and so on, and so forth….” For that matter, it’s also not clear whose “voices are being silenced”. He may think that he’s saying something here — perhaps even something important — but as far as I can tell he’s not.
This from the beginning of the same comment also strikes me as laughable:
So, he declares the metaphor is “perfect”, and is not a perfect match to reality, because then it would be a “description”. To me, that speaks volumes. He could’ve tried to improve or expand on the metaphor. He could’ve opted for a “description” instead, one which does correspond to reality to at least some extent. Perhaps he did later, but I don’t know because I simply gave up. The point is that when the opportunity to do so presented itself, he flatly rejected it and continued the obfuscation. If he wants his scribblings to be taken seriously (by me at least), he’ll have to do much better than that.
So, based on that thread and the highlights of llewelly’s links: Greg thinks that it’s important to moderate a blog for civility so that it doesn’t turn into a cesspool like Pharyngula, but when informed that Pharyngula does have civility moderation (via commenters), says that their enforcement of civility stifles comment and pushes people away. So moderating for civility is good, except that it’s bad. This is why I almost never understand a fucking thing he says.
Ring-Tailed Lemurian,
I’m glad you survived your ordeal up there. Yikes.
*awakens after a few hours’ fitful sleep*
I guess what’s most upsetting about it is that it insinuates that I really hate actual people whom I love. But you’re right, it isn’t worth it.
I remember once reading a discussion (over at Zuska’s?) in which Physioprof said that he was leaving himself open to certain charges because of the opaqueness of his writing. (I’m paraphrasing; you have to imagine it in his colorful style.) This in general is one of those times, though I thought he expressed himself clearly in the comments of Gee’s blog and that I basically agreed with him. At this point, I have no idea what he and Stephanie are talking about. (I don’t understand this distinction he seems to be trying to make between saying “You run your blog like an asshole and it excludes people” and “You shouldn’t run your blog the way you do, asshole – it excludes people.” They’re both critical, expressing disagreement with someone’s viewpoint or behavior. In neither case is there any possibility that the person criticizing could control anyone’s behavior even if (s)he wanted to. And I don’t understand Stephanie’s claims about “telling people how to feel.” Of course I’m trying to change how people think when I’m arguing with them. That’s what arguing is.)
Yeah, the thing about Paul W. was…odd. I probably should moderate my aggression sometimes. I try to recognize if I’ve been excessively belligerent – as with Leigh recently – and apologize. The thing is that I wanted to talk about the implications of certain specific standards or environments, but no one there seems interested in that. And when Paul writes long, cogent posts about the environment here and why it “works,” they’re ignored.
w00t! (I just discovered I got a donation from a very thoughtful person; I hope to start posting again today or tomorrow.)
I think I just didn’t form memories for a brief period of time. But I don’t know for sure, and AFAIK there’s no way to tell. In addition to the period of lost or “offline” time, I also have hazy memories of a period of only partially offline time, perhaps half an hour? All of this guessing is based on gathering clues from email, cell phone and internet activity, none of it is certain.
Good to hear, SC! Lines of conga rats, dancing and arguing gleefully, are celebrating for you.
As for the arguing and aggression and accusations of anti-semitude, I would think that there’s so much difference between what persons are comfortable with, what they expect, and how well their intellects work under pressure that you can’t avoid at least a few clashes on the internet.
The option of not commenting and blogging in order to avoid conflict is not appropriate in your case, since most of the time you present very cogent arguments.
Mistakes will be made … and not always by you. /joke
Laden:
This was the exchange:
What could he possibly be reading into my comment? I don’t find it tricky in the same way ethnically-Jewish atheists don’t find it tricky not to hate themselves.
***
Paul,
Your example is not an apt comparison to what I was saying. The context was a discussion in which Gee was attaking Dawkins for not writing a theology-level book. It was being pointed out to him (not by me) that most people are not theologians and that this is the reality of religion, especially Christianity. In this context, though I can’t remember precisely in response to what, he made some remark about not being concerned about what Christians do in their churches. I was saying that this is dangerously complacent, given the long history and present of Christianity. It wasn’t even Godwinning anything, as I made no comparison to the Nazis or the Holocaust. I was directly referring to this 2000-year history. I consider some forms of Christianity (and, of course, Islam) to be real and present threats to Jewish people (though not only), and presented some evidence. Gee can’t seem to appreciate this because he’s fixated on atheists and, as I learned later, his caricature of “the Left.” His apparent complacency in the face of real threats (to him and to me) is something I felt it necessary to comment on. That’s it. I don’t understand the point Stephanie was trying to make by bringing it up.
That was worth a laugh, Carlie.
I think what he’s trying to say is that any/all moderation for civility should be done to suit his sensibility. If you’re not him, you’re wrong.
PZ is a rarity in letting much of what he may dislike personally appear in the comments, all in order to foster the greater good of a freewheeling atmosphere. That atmosphere is conducive to occasionally brilliant contributions to social discourse. You can’t have the sniny stuff without the stuff that makes you inwardly groan. Still, of all the blogs I’ve read, Pharyngula has the highest percentage of enlightenment over dumbitude.
Lynna,
It sounded from your description like you weren’t forming memories for a short time, but I was just wondering how it seemed to you. I get anterograde amnesia following attacks — I’ve seen video of myself saying “I’m not going to remember this, but…” and indeed I don’t. I try to make myself notes and lists and then put them somewhere that I’ll see I made one. :)
Miki Z, I find it fascinating that you know you’re not going to remember something, so you take notes. How odd can the human brain be?
llewelly @604: That was a great link. Thanks. That was my “eating breakfast and watching the sunrise” entertainment this morning.
This may have already been mentioned, but if so, I will add my voice to say that I was really heartened when I heard that the Pentagon had a spokesperson saying that gays should be able to serve in the military without hiding their sexual orientation.
http://www.freep.com/article/20100203/NEWS07/2030313/1001/NEWS/Repeal-of-Dont-Ask-Dont-Tell-gets-
This morning I am experiencing acute but probably benign idiopathic blepharospasms. I imagine I resemble Clouseau’s archnemesis. Should probably lay off the caffeine a little.
*shrug* Laden.
I agree with PhysioProf that Laden is a crappy writer even when he is apparently trying to be clear. His thought processes always seem strangely muddled, but it’s not discernable whether it’s his thinking or his writing that gives that appearance.
But often it seems he’s not even trying to be clear–he posts these cryptic opaque statements on purpose and then sort of sits back feeding the infant or whatever and laughing at how everybody is so stupid as to get him wrong. It’s a fucked-up game that he plays and I for one refuse to be puppeted about by his stupid whims. He strikes me as a dick who actually enjoys being a dick but with a lot invested in not appearing to be a dick.
And what is the deal with his nitpicking schoolmarm thread-cop Stephanie Z? I mean, they’re friends and have each other’s backs and everything, fine, but wow. She is over the top every time I look over there.
Which isn’t often, and is likely to be even less frequent from here on.
<headdesk>
ARGN!
I want my rock hammer.
That one was so long that I bet most readers treated it as tl;dr!
But it’s a good reminder of why I don’t bother reading Laden’s unnamed blog much.
Okay, this is from Moments of Mormon Madness circa 1976:
That old time religious racism has since been dropped or at least modified, right? It’s still in the Choosing an Eternal Companion lesson for the Aaronic Priesthood (young men). They are slightly sneakier as to how they get the point across, but they do harp on it from several angles.
Ah – this is what he was responding to:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/06/dr_who_dr_dawkins.php#comment-957259
It’s interesting to note that I was just one of many who were trying to get him to appreciate this.* He did eventually express some minor acknowledgement, but this was unconnected to his discussion of immediate threats to Jewish people, despite several posts explaining this connection. Then he went completely off the rails.
*This is aside from the matter that Ichthyic argued that his characterization of TGD was wrong.
***
Stephanie Z:
So the person going on and on about respecting people’s feelings laughs her head off when someone calls her a hateful, murdering fascist. I suppose she would also mock the ADL. I submit that Stephanie is either lying or stupid and a bit crazy.
OK, stupid for sure.
This is pretty much a description of earning a degree. :) But, mostly, my wife lets me know I’m going to forget, since this is brought on by seizures. If I realize I’m giggling or my face hurts from smiling or I feel drunk, I try to take notes. It’s become enough of a pattern that I tend to do so even when I feel perfectly fine, since it doesn’t do any harm to take unnecessary notes on the computer.
Carlie @605
I object to “soddy git!” I think I’m supposed to be a “soddy cow” — or perhaps a “sodding atheist cow”.
I like all the love, and am embarrassed to the point of blushing.
To conform to the traditions in my neighborhood, you have to bring a jello salad (green), a jello dessert (preferably with the sweetness index raised to the pain level by miniature marshmallows), and a casserole that features tuna or macaroni or both.
The Ebil Atheists, godless fucking hordes, and uncivil wielders of dramatic facepalms will not be able to mend their reputations after this. I have seen the face of true kindness, and no amount of swearing far better than a sailor will dissuade me from loving you back.
Well, DUH SC…
The problem is not that someone implied that you might be an antisemite, the problem is your reaction to it, of course.
“Well, sure, I implied that some might think of her as a shit-eating child rapist… but it was for her own good, cause I care, and I certainly don’t think she eats shit… but whatever, look at how she reacted to it! There’s clearly something wrong with her.”
I thought casseroles were an entirely Protestant phenomenon. Mormons too? I was raised Catholic and the only casserole I experienced was the ubiquitous string-bean mess* on the back of the Durkee can.
*Which is delectable.
David, do you still think you need to upgrade your OS on the G5? I backed up my volume with the 10.5 OS, and could send you the install disk if needed. Not sure how to get it past customs though.
Then why is the word French? :-)
(But there it designates the pot, not what’s in it.)
No, thanks. I mean, it wouldn’t hurt, but I don’t think I need it.
Indeed! I pretty much only make it / have it served during Thanksgiving, but it’s my second favorite dish on the table after the turkey itself. Rarely does something that looks so unappealing taste so positively yummy.
As for other casseroles, I was also raised in a catholic household and casseroles were a staple (although it may have had more to do with the fact that we were a very low income family than the fact that we were catholic). Tuna-Noodle casserole was a weekly event, and scalloped corn casserole was a fairly regular “dish-to-pass” item. We also used to have a tex-mex style chicken and rice casserole, and on occasion we’d have a ham, cheese and hashbrown casserole for breakfast.
You probably already saw the quotes from the Baptists saying that they were going to bring the joy of Christ into the children’s lives. My brother (the geologist brother), says it strikes him as being sort of like buying a pet and then taking the pet to obedience school. The Baptists arrogantly override the individual humanity of each Haitian child.
I’m still pissed about the Baptists carting the kids to the border, with plenty of time to feed and water them on the way, but no, some of the children arrived so dehydrated that it required immediate care. No doubt, the clean water shortage caused them to be dehydrated in the first place, but poor planning and a focus on souls-for-Jesus played a part in the Baptists prolonging the dehydration.
Sources with more info:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100201/ap_on_re_us/us_haiti_idaho_church (This source details the recent incorporation of a non-profit organization by a Baptist woman who was in considerable financial difficulty. It’s hard to ignore the judgement against her for more than $4,000 — and then the non-profit being poorly run and poorly organized.)
http://hosted2.ap.org/APDEFAULT/8ef5320729ce4298abefc1903704c7d5/Article_2010-01-31-CB-Haiti-Americans-Detained/id-p6097a288af624b5da31c41ad416de14f
Lunchtime!!
The more that comes out about them the more bizarre they seem. From the same story, you get this gem:
In case he had to pull any children out of burning buildings? This was weeks after the earthquake. You’d also think that an EMT would be able to recognize the signs of dehydration. One claim of the group is that they were rushing the children to medical care… 100 miles or so into the DR.
Hope they rot in some haitian prison for a while.Weirdos.
Heard on the radio they had planned on renting some Hotel in the DomRep and to use it as orphanage to “bring Christ” to those kids.Turns out most of them still had living parents or relatives.
Well, the properly moral thing to do would have been to kidnap Lynna and drag her across the border to Canada, and then decide what to do. But noooo, the people here just had to do SENSIBLE things like try to get ‘EVIDENCE’. Can atheists truly be moral if they are not willing to do CRAZY SHIT without thinking?
windy wins the subthread.
*giggle*
Bit like John Wilkins and Susan Silberstein, but on a lower intellectual level :P
Hey now! That’s my fantasy, dammit…
Oh. Wait. We were talking about the MRI thing, were we?
Well… Then… Umm… Never mind.
(/Shuffles off red-faced…)
Yeah. I must confess this was one of the (rare) occasions on which I also found myself briefly thinking mebbe the principle behind the writ of habeas corpus is a mite overrated.
I find the Baptists response to be extremely loaded.
First, most Haitians are already Christians. They “have” Christ already.
Secondly, the idea that they need Christ rather than, you know, life essentials like food and medical care just boils my broccoli. Idjit bastards.
Thirdly, perhaps I’m reading into this, but the idea that they need to save these children from themselves, from their culture, makes me think about the white man’s burden. These people feel the need to save them children as though it’s an obligation as they’re primitive and backward. Actually the whole idea of missionary work is degrading and dehumanizing. It takes the premise that the lives of the people sucks and the “civilized” people need to save them. That’s why whenever a missionary asks me if I am happy, I insist that I am (even though they insist I’m not.)
Oh btw, a radical Rabbi says gays caused the earthquake in Haiti among other things.
Can’t argue with that.
Lynna (@617):
Not just a “Pentagon spokesperson”; as Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Adm. Mullen is the chief uniformed military advisor to both the President and the SecDef. Further, per the interview Rachel Maddow had last night with a gay military person who’s facing discharge under DADT, Mullen’s testimony (which I didn’t see) came across as heartfelt and sincere, and not at all a matter of simply saluting his boss.
I actually think change is about to happen on this front.
@Sven DiMilo, for your tortoise expertise — If you could maybe take a look at the picture in this comment @ TetZoo.
WTF is going with that poor testudinid’s nethers?
Bill, thanks for the correction about Adm. Mullen. I’m with you on this — it’s damned good news.
As for those who are fantasizing about kidnapping me and taking me to Canada, let’s stop on the way at one my favorite places for local color, the Good Grief Cafe, a last node of what passes for civilization in Idaho before one crosses the border. You might want to kidnap me using a pickup truck for transportation — camouflage yourself as a local.
BTW, most first world nations charge half what facilities in the US charge for the same tests, so Canada had already crossed my mind. I think I need a Canadian husband, but Jadehawk had only Germans on offer.
Canada has same-sex marriage. The pool of potential spouses is double what you might at first think, unless you’re opposed to it personally for some reason.
Re Adm. Mullen:
Anyone listen to NPR’s interview of Rep Duncan Hunter (R CA) in response to Mullen?
Did he just call Canada and Great Britain’s militaries inferior because they let gays serve openly?
You’re assuming that Greg has some sort of point in mind, and that he’s trying to express it, and that it’s directly related to what you said. It may be a mistake to assume that.
GHP #638,
link not working.
But I found this :
1000 Rabbis Warn: Open Homosexuality in the Military is a Disaster and May Cause Further Natural Disasters
There’s even a fun video of the crazy Rabbi !
I wonder how he explains that Israel, where gays serve openly in the military, has seen no earthquakes. And what about The Netherlands, Spain, etc… still no Katrina, no Tsunamis, no earthquakes.
negentropyeater
That’s the same story that my failed link was suppose to go. Except my source was from Truth Wins Out.
I wish I could vote for Paul W. for a Molly a second time. :)
Stephanie Z, Thread-Cop on Duty:
I do not understand this business about people’s “place.” It’s creeping me the hell out. Of course it’s his place, or mine, or anyone else’s. In this case – as with AGW – there’s a moral responsibility to tell people they need to be concerned. And it’s Gee’s place to tell us to stuff it, or to make and support a countercase, or to change his mind. Just as it was Gee’s place to criticize Dawkins, and Ichthyic’s place to tell him was full of shit. Welcome to democracy.
windy:
Yes, I’m increasingly coming to realize this.
This was one of my favorite comments ever:
http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201001130024#689186
http://epicwinftw.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/129090484261187061.jpg
Oh, I am a poopyhead for not thinking of that! Hmmm. I doubt that the boyfriend would object.
rationality + dry humor = Epic Win
@646
I should send that link of the crazy rabbi to Christopher Hitchens. He wrote about the sodomy/earthquake link as if it were history to everyone but Pat Robertson. Rabbis too, huh? Isn’t that just dandy.
SC, which comment was it?
With one exception, of course… it’s no-one’s place to tell anyone else what their place is.
Not really. I think he meant “we’re God’s Own Country, so God asks higher standards of us than of mere secular countries out there“.
winny, uh, windy wins again.
Welcome to the club! <clenched-tentacle salute>
Who is RuPaul?
Perfectly designed ad :-)
ew!!! I don’t know! IANAV, but the word “hernia” leaps immediately to mind.
SC, don’t let the bastards wear you down.
It didn’t take you to the comment? Huh.
“The moral of the story is, stay away from fault lines and coasts and you can pretty much be RuPaul.”
Well, naturally. We can’t have that, now, can We?
;)
[An anecdotal rant concerning fundie diminuition of the Haiti tragedy follows.]
Some days ago while on the train home, a woman sat next to me with a Jesus pamphlet. A self-help/salvation piece, slick and glossy, and a little longer than the usual tract. She began to read it intently, and I, to my discredit, began to rubberneck.
After some comparatively innocuous blather (‘How to Pray for Success’, or some such) she moved on to my absolute pet peeve: ‘Why Good Works are Not Enough’. This argument never fails to enrage me, because it so smugly, cynically, and consciously tries to undercut our basic faith in human nature. So what was so special about this time? Well, this time, it came with an especially mean sting in the tail:
My first question was: Why? Why bother saying that? Why bother going out of your way to show that you’re not just turning out boilerplate nonsense: you are actively keeping track of which tragedies can be callously dismissed? Did you rush to the presses, thinking: “This is great! A real-world example of just how little we think of human suffering, and how the agony in Haiti can serve as a stagelight for the importance of our own souls!”?
My only conclusion is that the producers of this booklet are so scared of people realizing they don’t need God to be good, they are prepared to poison the very notion of being good in the minds of their followers.
Yeah by all means, more crazy fundies please do speak up. That oughta make some real convincing testimony for congress and stuff like that. Please do speak up, crazy fundie bedfellows.
I don’t understand the point Stephanie was trying to make by bringing it up.
frankly, i can’t recall a single cogent point that StephanieZ brought up in that entire thread.
I kept picture a tiny, terrorizing, terrier, barking loudly at nothing in particular.
SC, are you getting any e-mails from me besides that one to which you responded in puzzlement?
I’m paranoid that maybe nobody is getting my e-mails (following a recent institutional switch of e-mail platforms).
Please do speak up, crazy fundie bedfellows.
Maybe “constituents” is a better word. By all means, please bring in the crazy fundie anti-gay constituents and have them testify about all the earthquakes it’s gonna cause.
Sorry, I don’t get it. What’s a RuPaul?
Wikipedia says there is some performer who goes by that name who, apparently, is a cross-dresser and doesn’t care whether she is addressed as she or he. Assuming that is whatwho is meant, I totally don’t get the relationship between this performer, herhis antics/performance, and Robertson’s odious Haiti “swore a pact to the devil” insanity.
And what the feck does “fault lines” (I presume the baffling commentator means (earthquake) faults) and (ocean?) coasts have to do with Robertson’s insanity? He’d be insane if you stuck him in the middle of the desert or down a deep cave; and he’d be insane if the disaster happened in a cave or a desert or to my dessert.
Total fail (possibly on my part).
:D
Thanks, love.
(The first minute is part of why the show I saw at Saratoga like 20 years ago was tedious. Still.)
The drag-queen that most straight folks in America know of.
Nice rant, MrFire, @659:
In the mix of eye-widening Jesus excuses from the Baptists who were shopping for bargain Haitian children, there was a quote from a pastor who reminded his congregation that God was not surprised by the earthquake in Haiti, that they should pray for the incarcerated
Christian rescuersbungling idiots, but not to worry too much because it was all part of god’s plan. This diminishment of the tragedy is lamentable, as you noted, and the odor of self-righteous self-congratulation rises to the heavens.I would like to thank Alan B for “double plus ungood”, a phrase I tend to steal and use.
In other news, the kidnapper of Elizabeth Smart had a complicit wife that aided and abetted. Now the wife’s kids have spoken out:
http://www.oprah.com/oprahshow/Wanda-Barzees-Children-Speak-Out
Lynna: Of course, Alan stole it himself (from another Englishman).
No no, Pee Zed’s the poopyhead. A professional one even. You’ve just got something wrong in the head. (Meant in the nicest possible way.)
Please get better. Then you too can be a poopyhead.
Yeah. I hate explaining humor – it kills it. Could you maybe try one more time?
*gasp* Ichthyic! Know your place!
Double plus ungood is not even English. It is duckspeak.
i know jokes die when they’re explained, but the point is that “god” seems to “punish” only the gays who live on fault lines. so as long as you in the netherlands, sweden, and even north dakota, you can be as queer as possible, and god won’t send an earthquake to punish you. funny that.
I noticed that when you click through to the crazy Rabbi video from negentroyeater via Gyeong Hwa Pak, the top clip in the “related videos” sidebar is Bill Hicks doing his hunk on gays in the military.
Serendipity rules!
I used to read Greg Laden, and there might be a few reasonable posts I still have bookmarked.
I stopped last year when he was asked, in a comment thread, to provide citations for some assertion. His response was, paraphrased, “I have degrees and field experience in this. This is my area of expertise. You can take my word for it. Besides, this is just a blog post.” Thanks, Greg. We probably can take your word for it, but you learned it somehow, and it would be nice if we could see where you learned it, if for no other reason than to study it in more detail.
So I realized I was wasting my time over there. Also, Sven’s summary of him @619. The games are tedious.
And apparently she can’t imagine anything like “it hurts just that someone would think that about me.”
Oh, yes, 1984. Newspeak. Apparently it’s been too long since I delved into George Orwell. We really don’t have that much time before Oldspeak is obliterated, obsolete. Newspeak is supposed to be ascendent by 2050. If so, that will definitely be double plus ungood.
But I note that, even with a restricted vocabulary, novel combinations can still be generated — though I’m sure that counts as rebellion.
Aspiring to Poopyheaddom, over and out.
blf,
The comment was more in response to Robertson’s and the Rabbi Levin’s claim that homosexuality caused natural disasters :
[sarcasm on] you can be as open as you want about your homosexuality, as long as you live outside of disaster prone areas [sarcasm off]
Thank you for that.
Thank you, David, but I’m starting to suspect you’re just letting me win ;) (I wasn’t being snarky in #645, btw: does it still count?)
#622: I don’t think she’s stupid. Last year when people were piling on ERV for criticizing the Intersectionists, she wrote this incredibly patient explanation/defense which I thought was really outstanding. And ironically reminds me of Paul W.’s comments a lot. But on Laden’s blog, I don’t know what’s going on, maybe it’s something in the water over there.
But Robertson’s arse farting about the people of Haiti having “sworn a pact to the devil” over two hundred years ago has got bugger-all to do with Teh Gay. (I know the kook blamed Hurricane Katrina on New Orleans’s gays.) If the commentator had said “Stay away from the ocean so Robertson can nuke a baby whale for Jesbozo” or “… practise his fish-slapping dance” or “… so you can’t hear him” it would have at least made a tiny bit of sense.
Sorry for being extremely dense here, but I don’t see the humour, albeit I may get the point.
Well… Israel does get earthquakes, but no major ones recently.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Transform
And there are quakes in nearby Anatolia and Greece.
But if the earth shakes at all, clearly God must be fuming mad !!
If you think the earthquake thing is nuts, I recall reading about some exegesis involving eclipses… I can’t find the exact text, but a citation of the work says that it says that eclipses of the sun are caused by one (or, I suppose, more) of the following:
1) A great sage not being buried according to his rank.
2) A virgin who has been raped and her cries unheard.
3) Homosexual activity.
4) Two brothers simultaneously murdering each other.
Naughty homosexuals!! You are changing the moon’s orbit (or the sun’s — did I mention that this same exegesis also takes geocentrism for granted?) with your antics!! Aren’t you ashamed of yourselves?!
RIP RuPaul Joke
2010 – 2010
I’m waiting for the explosion. Laden tends to freak out when people “tell him what to do with his blog”.
Double plus ungood is not even duckspeak, it’s Newspeak.
eh? none of those would make any sense to me
*confused*
and btw, SC’s correction makes even more sense… it’s not about Teh Gay specifically, it’s just the example the commenter picked. would have worked the same for something blatantly voodoo-ish/pagan-ish/satan-worshippy: you can do that too without having to worry about god punishing you, as long as you do it away from disaster-prone areas.
Ah! Thanks, I get it. I had assumed it was a comment about Robertson’s specific nonsense about the Haiti earthquake, rather than about a generalisation of Robertson et al.’s inhumanity.
Ok, I’ll crawl back into my
holecavetavern now…Gays are too valuable of a resource to risk having them go into the military1:
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/gays_too_precious_to_risk_in
1Okay, it’s not the funniest of Onion videos. Fine. But it is a funny concept.
Yes, to analyze and kill the joke even further: Robertson (or one of his clones) also blamed Hurricane Katrina on “teh geys” also, hence the comment about coastlines and faultlines being dangerous for “teh gays” (so San Francisco must be “double ungood” for teh geys).
Duckspeak is a more specific subset.
Duckspeak — one of my semi-retired insults for Walton — refers to the ability to recite propaganda from the pre-conscious areas of the brain.
Zombie Joke!!!!!!
Catching up with a few posts:
#554 Nerd of Redhead OM
Thanks for your clarification. Unfortunately, not everyone is as consistent as that. I have seen other %s used. Having seen the results of confusion here (no critcism of anyone on this thread) I will be even more careful with my use of units.
#557 Josh, Official SpokesGay
Currently, it is legal over here for a parent to give their children alcoholic drinks provided they are over 5years old. There are many who would want to raise the age (often to 15) to prevent them starting on the downhill track to binge drinking. My view? Unprintable but can be boiled down to somewhere between, “Mind your own business” and “Go forth and multiply”.
http://www.drinkingandyou.com/site/uk/child.htm
(towards the bottom of the page, “The Law”)
#558 Kausik Datta
Glad it got resolved! But have you got the process to actually work and give you believable results? Is there any way you can use non-important samples to confirm it?
I don’t apologise for taking a strong stand on chemical safety – it was only urgent action by my mother when she was at University that saved her sight when something “went wrong”. Everyone else ran around like headless chickens. I used to be the COSHH Nominated Officer responsible for chemical safety for a site with several hundred people. We had no incidents because the management took it seriously and gave me full support.
#573 #576 Pigmy Loris
In the UK it is an offense to sell alcohol to anyone who appears to be drunk. A publican could loose his/her license. It is also an offense to threaten someone so a drunk would be at risk of being dealt with by the boys in blue.
The problem in the UK is, as I said, the (understandable) over-reaction of stores to threats of oppressive action by the Government. They are fighting what they say is a war against what they claim is a major escalation in binge drinking. In reality, alcohol consumption has been decreasing over several years but when did facts ever stop a government from imposing its will on the people? Thousands of new laws in the UK since the current government came in. We are changing from English Common Law – you can do anything that is not banned – to what some describe as European Law – Everything is banned unless it is specifically allowed.
:D Thanks, Lynna – and I hope we’re helping edge you toward your diagnosis.
My condolences on your loss.
Pivotal in my deconversion. Probably a cliche, but my understanding of The Party exactly reflected my conception of God.
You know, because I’ve never even set (virtual) foot on Greg Laden’s little patch of cyberreal estate, about 2/3 of this thread has been utterly lost on me.
Jus’ sayin’….
Note to self: improve dry humor.
Absolutely. I interpreted it as being meant literally.
Too cool.
I’ve no flaming clue what that shit is about either, and I do occasionally read his blog. I just don’t bother with threads like that, and I very much doubt I’ll start caring now.
Ah, but Duckspeak isn’t a subset of the language! It’s a particular way of using it. Saying “double plus ungood” would only be Duckspeak in the occasion that it is used in toeing the Party Line without conscious thought.
I often see now where further clarification is made with using percent composition of solutions. Clarification is added in the form of w/w, w/v, or v/v. (v/w is possible, but IIRC, I have never seen it.) So, I might see a SOP that describes the HPLC solvent as methanol with 0.1% TFA (v/v). Or 1 mL TFA into a liter of methanol.
I don’t know either. I thought maybe the fate of the entire universe hinged upon it or something. Seems really important I guess. Hopefully everything will be okay.
Sven – nothing since 5:20 PM yesterday (to which I responded).
Erm, no. Common Law – which no country has ever introduced of its own free will, not even Louisiana – is “judges can make law by establishing a precedent”, while code law is “the written law is the law, judges only interpret it; precedents are interesting, but they are not law”. Over here, too, everything that’s not explicitly banned is allowed.
Code law ultimately comes from Emperor Justinian’s Codex Iuris Civilis, it starts from written law; common law goes back to ancient Germanic unwritten law.
I used to visit from time to time… even liked a few of his entries… but I stopped after reading one too many posts filled with confusing, almost self-contradictory babble and his propensity for “saying, but not really saying”… could never really figure out where the guy really stood on a given topic. It was frustrating, so I stopped going.
I have no such difficulty understanding PZ’s position on most things, agree with them or not.
Oh, and by the way, I will now only refer to Stephanie Z as “Smithers”.
Amazingly enough, Krystl says there’s about $600 in the diagnose Lynna fund, so I can schedule at least one of the tests next week. I’ll go for the least expensive of the two tests for now, and will continue to save money for the other test. I’m still shaking my head over everyone’s generosity.
That’s a film!
High Pressure/Performance/Price Liquid Chromatography.
Don’t. That’s how we roll… and you’d do the same. ;^)
Someone please remind me of this at Molly time next month.
yay us! :-)
hope this test actually gets you some results. I’ve found that there’s little that’s more frustrating than throwing hundreds of dollars at a doctor, and then find out that the tests didn’t explain anything at all. (“well, we know it’s not X” only feels worth it if X was really dangerous :-p )
?
This is weird and now I’m worried that I need to troubleshoot my new e-mail connection and also re-send a whole bunch of shit to a whole bunch of people.
SC, please help me out (with apologies to everyone else):
I received an e-mail from you stamped Tue 2/2/2010 12:05 AM with your original request.
I have records of sending you e-mails in reply at:
Tue 2/2/2010 1:46 PM
Tue 2/2/2010 1:48 PM (a duplicate oops)
Tue 2/2/2010 1:49 PM (apologizing for the dupe)
[this is the one to which you responded with the sent stamp: Tue 2/2/2010 4:42 PM]
[…to which I responded at:]
Tue 2/2/2010 5:19 PM
[and]
Tue 2/2/2010 5:21 PM (which was a forward of my original reply for what to me was the third time]
All in all I have received 2 emails from you and sent you five.
How does this square with your records, if you wouldn’t mind checking? Thanks
#659 MrFire
I suspect, MrFire, that you may have missed the point the author was trying to get across. Alternatively, the author may have missed it as well!
It is a fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity that Islam believes in salvation by works while Christianity believes in salvation by grace.
To be a good Moslem you have to pray 5 times a day, take part in the Haj at least once in your lifetime, fast in the month of Ramadan, give alms, fear Allah, love fellow Moslems but hate everybody else, avoid contact with unclean things such as dogs (unless they are working dogs. You must not enjoy life. Enjoyment is for the future that you have earned and when you can take pleasure in 72 virgins (or raisins). [Hard luck women. You seem to get to live forever with your Moslem husband – assuming you ever get out of hell which is populated mainly with women according to Mohamed.] If your good works outweigh your bad works and if Mohamed speaks for you on Judgment Day, you will get your heart’s desire.
For a Christian, good works cannot earn salvation. You do not gain merit or eternal life, “go to Heaven” or however else it is expressed by what you do because humans will always fail to reach perfection. Even giving to help those in Haiti will not gain salvation. Hence the quote:
What is required by God is perfection and we will always fall short of that.
I suspect that the tract would have gone on to talk about how accepting the sacrifice of Jesus on the stake/cross cleanses us from sin and we are then given the righteousness of Jesus Christ by Him living in us.
Jesus helped the sick, fed the hungry, forgave the adulterous woman (where was the man? It generally takes 2 to commit adultery …). He spoke to women and to Samaritans. He held up as an example the Good Samaritan who helped someone who was injured.
A Christian with Jesus living His life in them will go and do likewise. But he/she should know that they will not earn salvation as a result. Good works will (or should) naturally follow as a result of a person being a Christian – they will not earn merit.
It may be that the tract was playing down the goodness of others but I doubt it. If that was the aim then it was NOT in line with Christian understanding.
Heh, “Smithers”, very funny. That character has one of those smiles that give one the willies.
Jadehawk @708: Yes, I know just what you mean. This is not one of those clear-cut cases where a combination of engineering and medical expertise fixes my torn shoulder, for example.
There is a chance that the tests will rule certain things out, but still not provide a definitive diagnosis. In this case “X” could be dangerous, but “X” could also be an undetectable ghost in the machine who made one haunting visit, didn’t like the environment, and left without a trace.
Most people would just get the frigging tests done because the odds are the tests should be done … and they would have the money or insurance to do so. But tossing money at Ifs and Maybes is not my style, so I’m having to force myself to follow through on the basis on intellectual reasoning alone. Well, there’s also a level of trust in my doctor. He has proven to be a clear-headed, honest, straight-forward man in the past, which puts his cover-my-ass quotient at the low end for medical professionals.
I wish I could just go in there and check things out myself, you know, look around, see if anything is out of place, turn down the orange-craving dial, vacuum, dust, make sure the laundry is done, and send any orphan socks I find lying around to David M.
#668, 669
Feel free! I make not pretence at originality! I merely used it to emphasise a point.
#667 Lynna OM
I understand the angels have been issued with super-effective gas masks to save them from the stench!
@Canadians: 31 days of action
Please get involved and show that you don’t support a government that is not accountable to Canadians.
http://tinyurl.com/31daysofaction
For more information:
http://www.noprorogation-nonprorogation.ca/ (letter from professors expressing their opposition)
http://www.thesudburystar.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?—
“the inherent flexibility of our parliamentary traditions require, indeed demand, that the politicians of the day act as committed custodians, not cynical performers. ”
@non-Canadians: Not sure what you can do to help, but if you can think of something, please do. In case you’re not aware, Stephen Harper is of the Bush school of ideology, but he’s a hell of a lot smarter. Not only has he suspended our parliament for the second time in a year (this time to avoid uncomfortable questions about transferring of Afghan detainees, while at the same time allowing him to stack the Senate so as to push through legislation without amendment), but he’s quietly cut funding to women’s groups, science and research (his Min. of State for Science & Tech is a creationist minister who’s also a chiropractor), and brazenly dropped even the pretense of an environmental plan. All this and he doesn’t even have a majority in parliament (only about 25% of eligible Canadians voted for his party in the last election).
#701
OK. Terminology incorrect.
Oh, FFS – just went through a whole explanation that could be concisely summarized (*rolls eyes at self*): I received four from you (the other was a duplicate, it seems, so nothing missing). I sent you three, the last at 9:02 PM yesterday. Should I resend?
Alan B.@692,
Thanks! I was unaware that UK alcohol consumption had been falling, no doubt because it’s not an issue I’ve taken any interest in, so I’ve found myself a victim of propaganda. Here’s a particularly amusing example, from Summary of “Drinking in the UK: An exploration of trends” by Lesley Smith and David Foxcroft, published by
the Joseph Rowntree Foundation.
Here’s the headline:
“Rising alcohol consumption is a cause for concern. This evidence review summarises interesting trends in drinking in the UK and discusses possible causes.”
Here’s the first “key point”:
“There has been a slight overall decline in weekly drinking by men and women in Great Britain in recent years, especially amongst adults aged 16-24. But there has been a notable increase in weekly drinking in Northern Ireland since 1986.”
My guess is that the reason for the NI increase is that money has been poured into the place in a largely successful attempt to bribe the nationalist and unionist communities to stop supporting violence against each other, so most people there are a lot better off.
speaking of drinking, paranoia, and really misguided attempts at “fixing” a problem:
when I was in Germany last time, I saw a TV report about increased teenage drinking and increases in binge-drinking. The solution touted by the program and apparently also by officials was to ban sales of alcohol during late-night hours.
It made me laugh out loud, since this is the “solution” that many places in the U.S. have implemented, and it doesn’t work even a little bit. teens are not idiots; they they’re perfectly capable of planning ahead and going to the store earlier and stocking up.
you want to keep kids from drinking themselves into a coma, you have to give them something better to do with themselves, not ban them from drinking or buying liquor (or you could implement the method favored by my favorite club when I was a teen: selling what was basically beer-flavored water :-p )
Mal Adapted, which thread are you referring to?
***
Laden (echoing private email response), 2-3-10, 12:04 AM:
Laden, 2-3-10, 5:38 PM:
I…
*Let’s be clear on what preceded this, btw – my telling you I wanted nothing to do with you right now.
Totally unrelated to current sub-threads.
I went to the local lending Library on Monday (you remember, those big buildings with lots of dusty shleves with sheaves of paper bound into helpful packages – pity someone typed all over them. Libraries were what we used BCE – before computer era. We are now in CE times – computer era).
Came across a new book by Darren Naish who also has a scienceblog:
http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/
“The Great Dinosaur Discoveries”
ISBN978-1-4081-1906-8
Published 2009.
Picks key events/finds from the history of dinosaur discovery rather than going through every species in an encyclopedic way. Obviously, I am not an expert on dinosaurs although I did spend much of my youth in the Natural History Museum, S Kensignton and could take you to just about any public display but I liked it.
Very much in the modern style of displaying dinosaur reconstructions with feathers, bright colours etc.
Well worth a look IMO.
Any comments about it David Marjanović?
What are friends for? Besides supplying fresh babies to barbeque.
Mal Adapted:
Would have? Say it, and explain wtf you’re talking about.
Laden:
Go to hell.
#720
RBDC syndrome strikes again:
S. Kensington (of course)
I occasionally dropped into Laden’s blog but I was never particularly impressed. He was a poor writer and struck me as a sloppy thinker. I stopped reading the blog because it wasn’t really discussing much I was interested in.
What an asshole. Bans someone and is too cowardly to admit it!
Haven’t seen the book myself, but, uh, Darren knows what he’s talking about…
Thread about the book here.
Irishmen in America singing about Australia:
500 comments later, but…
Carlie @ 229: Howdy neighbor, it’s good to know that I’m not the only pharyngulite ’round these parts (depending on what you mean by “upstate” of course; but up here in the frozen north I suspect there are more than a few atheists hidden away in the nooks and crannies)
In other news, the GOP wants to reach out to women:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2010_02/022223.php
Somehow, I don’t see this being terribly successful.
Alan B:
The step in question, the KOH deacetylation reaction, is one of the end steps, and as NoR and another chemist friend remarked, the relative quantities in the protocol were grossly overkill. So it did not make much of a difference, and today I did get the chitosan pellets from my samples. I also set up a small control experiment to assay the chitin from another source, and it tallies to earlier results. Which is good.
No apologies necessary, Alan B. Thank you for driving an important point home.
I don’t think SC confirmed that she could not, in fact, post there due to technological restraints (she said “I guess so” with regards to being banned”). However, Laden did straight out tell her to leave the blog for awhile, and the next day claim that she simply chose to leave instead of being told to. It was amusing to see Mal Adapted agreeing with his general point while still calling him out on being less than honest. At least some of his commenters are willing to discuss things honestly.
Just wanted to point out that it’s not obvious SC is actually banned, but with the way Laden requested she leave any person with a sense of self-respect and decorum would treat it as a ban.
Holy crap, and SC was polite (or should I say civil) to leave right when Greg said to, not arguing or saying he was being unfair, and then he turns around and claims he didn’t have anything to do with it? Sheesh. What a dope.
Nah, it’s just like Bill said: if I can’t make the government take money out of my paycheck to pay for universal health care, I’ll just have to do it my own damned self.
Kyorosuke – I was surprised to learn when I moved here that everything north of Poughkeepsie is “upstate”. :)
This is a massive over-simplification, and is entirely wrong on many levels (though this is not the first time I’ve heard it asserted).
I will not tackle the task of explaining this now, however, as I have a ton of work to do tomorrow and need to get some sleep.
Go to hell.
seconded from my end.
Greg’s off the deep end, far as I can tell.
He actually threatened me.
fucking ridiculous.
Why is everyone on this thread getting so worked up about events on someone else’s blog? I’ve only vaguely even heard of Greg Laden (mainly through links in the sidebars on ScienceBlogs) and I don’t see what this has to do with Pharyngula, or why all this acrimony needs to fill up the endless thread. (I preferred it when the endless thread was mainly devoted to pictures of bread, snow and bacon.)
…I can only think of one word to describe Greg on that thread:
disingenuous
As this thread draws to a close, I want to say that, though I love much about Ireland and the Irish (their lilt!, their mythology!, their character!), they did piss me off by creating that abominable fad that was Riverdance.
1. We have seen that the deadliest earthquakes in recorded history have stricken in the following countries.
2. We have seen that the same counries with the deadliest earthquakes are only amongst those that still ban Teh Gays from the military.
3. The only notable exception being Italy, but that’s the place where Palpatine Homophobe the XVIth resides.
All this is in sync with a seven thousand year old teaching in the Negentropyetarmud that the practice of homosexuality in the military is a spiritual deterent of earthquakes. Except when the imposteur who falsely pretends to be the representant on earth of the one true God and is an evil homophobe resides within less than 200 km away of the potential area. Then it’s not protected because that imposteur helps the True Satan to exert his negative influence in that area too.
For those who do net yet know, the Negentropyeatermud is a very recently discovered spiritual text that is considered by the experts in Negentropyeaterlogy as being the most ancient authentic spiritual text discovered todate.
It was found last week at a fake antique dealer in KowLoon, by a snake oil salesman.
Oh that comment. Yeah I didn’t get it.
I was in lab and I forgot to wear my goggles while working with some halogens. Now I’m paranoid for my eyes.
The GOP thinks women are children?
Why is everyone on this thread getting so worked up about events on someone else’s blog?
Walton, if you don’t know, and are too lazy too follow the thread chains yourself, why not do the right thing, and STFU?
Partly because he keeps holding Pharyngula up as a shining example of how terrible and awful things can get without heavy moderation, and completely mischaracterizing it in the process. We must defend our honor!
Kyorosuke (#728)
Ahh, much better.
~*~*~*~*~*~
Walton (#734)
Know what I do when The Thread strays into an area I don’t particularly care about? I skip those posts. Try it.
It got better. He claimed that nobody would say the things you say to him in person unless they are drunk. I thought you were rather civil, really. I don’t get where his head is at.
Laden is wrong.
On the Internet.
:-)
(And I have about 1/3 of my bread left. Might have to buy another loaf soon.)
:-D
Walton,
We’re held as an exemplar of incivility, where pissing on others is expected, and comment threads are akin to a cage match.
The relevant thread is linked above; if you want to see for yourself, feel free.
At my work, all that PPE is supposed to protect the product from us. The reverse is also true…
Bloody hellfire, I’ve just been over to Greg Laden’s blog, which I can’t recall having visited before. What a self-satisfied dunderhead!
see, comments like this are why I am now labelling Greg a disingenuous asshat:
It was an idle threat. The statement says “you can come back when you calm down” but in reality she can come back any time even if she is not calmed down. She would be welcomed.
In reality?
LOL
when blog owners start laying down idle threats repeatedly, there is a problem.
Off topic (on an open thread?) Titanoboa strikes again. This time at crocks.
Someone should tell the “Oh noes! Gays in teh military meanz they wont fite!” crowd about the Theban “Sacred Band” – an elite troop of 300, made up entirely of pairs of male lovers. Admittedly, the Band did in the end get slaughtered to a man at the battle of Chaeronea by the Macedonians under Philip VI and his son Alexander (later “The Great”); reportedly because, when called upon to yield when the battle was lost, they shouted that they did not know the word, and supposed it must be Macedonian. Come to think of it, they could also take a lesson from Philip and Alexander themselves, both well known for their sexual relationships with other men as well as their military prowess.
The point is a potentially interesting meta-level question on proper modes of interaction online and in meatspace, and what exactly constitutes violations of those norms and why, and potential inconsistency and double-standards in applying those norms.
As someone interested in politics and law, there may be analogies to the subjects you’re studying and interactions you yourself have had online and/or in meatspace.
Or not.
=====
I’m pretty sure that should be “have struck“. Possibly because it’s being used actively rather than passively, but if I’m wrong about that detail, I’m sure that the real grammar Nazis will launch a strike into Usageland.
“A disaster strikes” / “A disaster has struck.”
“The country was {struck/stricken} by the disaster.”
“Strike that from the records” / “It was {struck/stricken} from the record.”
“{He|She} looked stricken.”
Kausik Datta: A 729: I couldn’t add to the chemistry discussion, but was interested anyway. I was glad to hear that there were no disasters, that you survived, and that chitin is where and how it’s supposed to be. Alan B resorting to all caps was pretty exciting. :-)
@728, That was hilarious. Women need the help of Republican Men to make a decision? They need hand-holding? That dude, and his ilk, have no clue.
Nerd: From your linked article: “Today’s anacondas, for example, are known to gulp down caimans in the Amazon. Titanoboa could’ve swallowed such toothy prey as though it were an appetizer.”
This reminds me of the post where a pet boa attemtped to eat a child.
My lasting impression of Riverdance is this thought, “Holy Bosoms! What kind of bras to those women wear?” There was an awful lot of vigorous hoping about and very little bosom bounce. It was impressive.
I think what happened was that Greg (and Henry) got a bit confused because everyone keeps mentioning the Jews.
retreat: “the order or disposition in which a fleet of French men of war decline engagement, or fly from a pursuing enemy. […] As it is not properly a term of the British marine, any fuller account would be entirely out of place.”
(William Falconer’s Dictionary of the Marine)
(Submitted purely as an example of classical snark in a similar mode, with apologies to the French.)
Lynna:
What C_E said! Squared!
Plus which, it hit me out of the blue this evening how staggeringly calm you’ve been in the face of what must be an utterly terrifying experience. I am, my dear friend, in fucking awe of you. When I need it (FSM forfend that day should come!), can I borrow some of your zen?
I don’t know what it is with our local “classical music” radio station, but when they get tired of opera, symphonies, and the like, they put on Celtic folk music.
Re: Titanoboa and crocs,
The Laelaps posting on the study also has a link to an art process blog, which has a painting of such an encounter:
http://gurneyjourney.blogspot.com/2009/09/titanoboa-part-1.html
http://gurneyjourney.blogspot.com/2009/09/titanoboa-part-2.html
GHP (@738):
This comes as a surprise to you??
;^)
Jerry Coyne sneaks into PZ’s territory:
Giant squid, sort of.
He mentions the invasion of Humboldt squid into California waters, and that the media are misidentifying Humboldt squid as “giant squid”.
In regards to this whole civility issue, it might be appropriate if it were actually helpful for debate. But so often here I see even those who try to offer a substantive argument initially end up just complaining about the tone instead of actually addressing the objections. When there are several who focus purely on argument, there’s no excuse to just ignore them and complain about tone.
Complaints about civility are nothing more than an excuse for people who can’t argue their position. It’s never that they can’t argue, it’s always that people here are mean and cruel and poopeyheads. Just look at the bullshit that Kevin offered up in the Wheels Within Wheels thread. Several posts playing the persecution card, until finally we’re able to drag a pseudo-argument from him (that turns out to be a standard set of creationist talking points) and from there all he can do is preach, appeal to emotion and talk about how angry we all are. He had the chance to engage his position but chose not to.
If that were a one-off thing, then maybe there would be something to a point. But time and time again this pattern is followed. Civility doesn’t stop morons saying moronic things, it just means they go about being morons without being called one.
Erm… Is someone going to call me an anti-semite if I confess I actually rather liked Riverdance?
Nerd (@759):
A Feature, Not a Bug®, if you ask me!
No, but…Patricia, load up the trebuchet… ;)
I do believe this is one of our faster fill-ups on the Thread. Closing in on 800 already!
otrame (@764):
No, but you might be an anti-dentite!
lol. Snark married to understatement. And I’ll bet he wrote it without even cracking a smile.
The denizens of Professional Poopyhead’s salon and uncivil cesspool do indeed know how to roll.
Bill, I’ve had my moments. I just don’t parade most of them here, since this is my happy place. Pharyngula is one secret to whatever zen I enjoy — odd that we have a reputation as the roughest bar. Someone is missing the point of Pharyngula.
You can borrow zen anytime you need it. I attribute the ability to keep going, in part, to having been in positions where I had to keep going, like hiking the more remote parts of the Continental Divide Trail. If Josh were here, he’d recognize the syndrome immediately. No cell phone coverage, no signs of man, just that long, sinuous Divide and one step after another to get where you’re going.
‘Tis Himself recently put up some links to tear-jerking videos, and I thought, “Well, at least the subject of the song died quickly.” [inappropriate smile]
I find myself oddly fascinated (when I’m not being horrified) by the drama in my brain.
Read the thread (there’s even a reference to you in there), but basically it was about how uncivil this place is which intimidates people and stops others from commenting. The way it’s made out is that this place is nothing but a free-for-all with no convention whatsoever. Which is wrong, utterly wrong and severely misleading.
The difference between this place and others is that this place is intimidating not because of tone, but because anyone saying something stupid will be ripped apart. If you can’t hold an argument, then you probably shouldn’t be here.
Trebuchet at the ready…my aim may bad I’m starting a new lace shawl tonight, can’t take my eyes off it.
Actually, I wouldn’t quibble with that analysis much, but then I have to listen to the Redheads tirade about the practice.
And for some reason, “civility” as defined by the people most concerned with it doesn’t preclude being a condescending asshole so long as you avoid calling someone a dumbass outright.
~*~*~*~*~*~
And speaking of trebuchets, people at my volunteer job today were wondering what the difference is between a catapult and a trebuchet and didn’t believe me when I told them. What’s the point of having a vast store of trivial knowledge if the one time you get to use a particular fact, people think you’re wrong? *cry*
Oh, A. Noyd, don’t cry, just get Blind Squirrel to come to your place of employment and give a demo. Blind Squirrel could use the doubters as loads for the trebuchet.
Yeah, that’s pretty much it. The standard for civility is that it’s okay to steal someone’s wallet just as long as you have a smile on your face while you do it. Call them out on stealing your wallet however… “How could you yell at me? Did you not see the smile on my face?”
Kel (@770):
Not even that, really: I’ve said plenty of stupid things here, and lived to tell the tale. What is true is that if you’re unremittingly stubborn about your Stupid Things™, you’ll get keelhauled… but in my experience, this is a really wonderful place to be stupid-but-educable.
Lynna (@769):
I envy you that, at least. I’ve never been more than a very occasional day-hiker, but I yearn for a life that would accommodate a long-distance walk. I’m not the meditative type by nature, and the closest I ever get is when I’m doing some mindlessly repetitive physical task. The notion of being on a long trail, with nothing to do or think about but putting one foot in front of the other, and nothing to look at but beauty, sounds like heaven.
It’s one of those questions where I already knew the answer but just wanted to reiterated it.
:D
In other news, wingnut’s anti-immigrant rant inadvertently supports gay marriage
In other other news, Japan to tackle monster Jellyfish threat.
A. Noyd #773
Many tone trolls will show their utter disdain and disgust at associating with us godless evilutionists in a condescending, pompous manner. If it weren’t for the necessity to show us the error of our ways and bring us to The Light™, they wouldn’t come within shouting distance of us.
Bill Dauphin wrote:
Really? Sounds like heaven’s polar opposite to me; I loathe walking. But a similar trail begun while astride a mountain bike might be a different story…
GHP:
Forgive me for asking a couple potentially nosey questions?
I know you’ve said you don’t speak Korean, but your name looks (sounds) Korean to me; where are you from (by which I mean to ask what your national heritage is, not necessarily where you were born)?
Also, from my time in Korea (or maybe just from watching women’s golf!), I’m familiar with Pak (aka Park) as a family name, but I also know that the custom in many East Asian cultures is to put the family name first, preceding the given name… so, is Pak your family name and Gyeong Hwa your given name (i.e, a Westernized rendering)? Or vice versa? Or is the whole thing a pseudonym in any case? (I’m stupid about these things: For the longest time, I thought the aratina in aratina cage was just a pretty, if somewhat exotic, girl’s name; you wouldn’t like to see the shade I turned when I read that it was really a rat in a cage!)
Finally, I note the recent addition of another name, Lao Daung Duen, to your handle. Have you been joined by a partner in posting? Or is that just the way you write Pikachu in your mother tongue? ;^)
If any of these questions are too personal, or might compromise your identity in RL, feel free to ignore me altogether; I’m just a curious cat.
Lynna,
Sports bras, I guess. :)
That said, I guess the degree of endowment is significant: I saw the women’s final of the Australian Open and, ahem, Serena Williams’ bosom was rather mobile, though she presumably wears the best.
(BTW, she is truly magnificent! A true champion, and a most impressive specimen.)
Kel,
Heh. I just used him specifically as an example of civility in that thread.
—
Bill, I seem to recall Gyeong Hwa Pak is of Cambodian (nee Kampuchea) descent.
Just an anti-Semite?
I mean, as if we’d stop there…
(Clears throat…)
Ahem.
Sure. She just likes Riverdance. This is always how it starts. But this kind of vitriol, we know where it ends…
I mean, I figure with a few more years of this loose talk, this unbridled rhetoric, and people who don’t like Riverdance, they’re not going to be able to get tenure anywhere…
And then they’ll be driving us anti-Riverdance types out of our homes, into the ghetto…
And then will come the gas ovens…
Yeah, yeah, sure, you say that’s not what you’re thinking. But then, why aren’t you? If you’re consistent, if you really like Riverdance, the way you say you do, that’s where you should be driving this. To the gas chambers. You genocidal bastards.
(/Alternately, I was thinking mebbe I coulda just gone with ‘And you know who else liked Riverdance? Hitler. That’s who.’ But it seemed a little too obvious.)
Actually… I think it’s way more complicated than that. There is not a single Christianity; there are (and have been) many Christianities.
But a discussion of the different theological concepts of soteriology strikes me as being less than entirely interesting at this point in time.
Well, if your aim might be off, forget about the trebuchet, and concentrate on the important stuff (the Redhead is out at a knitting meeting tonight). Better get to bed early anyway…
Lynna (#774)
To make that even more sadistic, the topic was brought up as a suggestion on how to get midday snack into the far end of the gorilla exhibit when the weather’s bad and they won’t come into reasonable yam- and apple-chucking distance.
John:
Thanks for the clue-in. Now that you mention it, it dawns on me that I’m utterly clueless about how Cambodian (or Laotian, for that matter) names look or sound. I suppose if forced to guess I would’ve imagined they were similar to Vietnamese names, just based on proximity.
I’m another Ugly American who doesn’t know anything about geography, I guess… 8^(
Also, re Serena Williams1: She is definitely a magnificent champion, but every time I watch her play, the second thing I think (after wow, can she play!) is always Jebus, that must hurt!
The old joke about Ginger Rogers was that she did everything Fred did, but backwards and in heals. It strikes me that well-endowed female athletes face an even bigger extra burden compared to their male counterparts! Oww, oww, oww!!!
1 As an aside, a former coworker and his mother were state-ranked amateur tennis players in Florida, and they knew the Williams sisters slightly, back in the day. My little brush with fame, once removed!
Unfortunately I hear my pillow calling me, so I’ll bid good night* to all you Riverdance and super-support bra enthusiasts.
*Or good morning to those in Oz.
Firefox and Pharyngula mock me by leaving my errors fully visible while they’re in the process of being posted!
…in he
aels…Wouldn’t be the first time Firefox has spread evil upon the universe.
That happened when I upgraded to 3.6. Too many things broke. Happily back at 3.5.7.
It’s afternoon here.
John, I think the reading failure that Val referred to over there was that Greg was asking for an example of a ‘Pharyngulista’ conceding a point in that thread.
(As for why it hasn’t happened, is it possible that it’s because Greg doesn’t have a fucking point that anyone can discern?)
Sorry to comment from the sidelines here, but I would rather not enter that botched abortion of a thread at all. And just IMHO, it’s counterproductive to enter into these long debates with people who have their cherished fantasies about ‘Pharyngulistas’ and any attempt to argue is simply taken as a confirmation of the stereotype.
I have road ratings in my Backcountry Roads – Idaho book, and I rated one road “jogging bra required” — it was more like driving in a rocky stream bed than on a road.
It’s my considered opinion that anyone using the term ‘Pharyngulistas’ to describe us (except, obviously, when quoting) should be showered with bucketsfull of moist (and preferably warm) pig excrement.
James Arthur Ray has been arrested for manslaughter over the sweat lodge deaths.
Allegedly, he is such a great motivational speaker that he can motivate people into pushing past life-
threatendingending obstacles. His “Spiritual Warrior” series is being rebranded as “Spiritual Criminal Defendant” and targeted at the wealthy and accused.Pharyngulatrix?
Sports bras are largely ineffective in preventing bounce when you’re actually bouncing. I think full coverage, structured bras are the most effective in preventing bounce, but they’re not very comfortable and usually only come in sizes for well-endowed women.
My message to any bra designers reading these comments: small breasts bounce too!
Alan B – a late response to your post@710:
Don’t get me wrong: I’m sure the authors fully appreciate the value of good works, and believe that God enjoys seeing them. My objection is that they deliberately posit a good act against what I consider to be the selfish, esoteric, and frankly banal act of ‘accepting Jesus’, and then conclude that the latter is infinitely more important. I cannot but imagine that this requires a certain willed suppression of their own humanity, and that their outlook on the world is worse for it.
I suppose it’s my interpretation, but this need to highlight that ‘good works are not enough’ betrays a certain suspicion, or even jealousy, of those who live for good works alone (as in, those who don’t do it to please God). It may be hyperbolic of me to suggest that they are trying to poison the concept of good works, however – I concede that.
Sure. At the very best, they’ve explained themselves badly. I come away with the impression that, on some level, they think that a focus on good works will take you away from what you should really be focussing on.
I grew up in a somewhat liberal Catholic environment, where there was an emphasis on ‘good works’ and a general avoidance of discussing the technicalities of salvation. Even the Catechism is annoyingly vague on this point:
So whether I was true to the actual Catholic tradition or not, I always grew up with the understanding that the path to heavenTM was more about doing the right thing (a woolly concept, to be sure, and certainly not how one generally perceives the rigid, inflexible orthodoxy). At any rate, I’m pretty sure this idea would not fly with the tract writers, and this is what I can neither accept nor understand.
But a grovelling mea culpa will? Even if you mean it with all your heart, what does God seek to gain from that, as opposed to seeing his creation striving to interact with each other more justly and harmoniously? (By the way, please forgive me, I don’t know if you’re advocating or just explaining it here…)
What’s so godly about setting impossible goals, then holding us responsible for our failure to meet them? The interweaving comments about 1984 seem appropriate in this context…
It probably did, but how does that help?
I’d say there’s a pretty high failure rate in that operation. :D
Once again, sorry if you were just offering exposition. And if, on the other hand, you are offering some kind of justification for the tract writers, I hope you find my questions engaging.
John Morales
Indeed I am 75% Cambodian. Khmer to be exact, because Cambodian can be any various ethnic group in Cambodia. The other percentage consist of Chinese, Korean, French.
Bill Dauphin
The name is Korean. I messed it up and didn’t bother to change it. It’s suppose to be Pak Gyeong Hwa. Of course most Korean and Vietnamese names are derived from Chinese. Pak Gyeong Hwa (Korean) = Po Jing Hua (Mandarin) = Pok Ging Fa (Cantonese) = Phác Kinh Hoa (Vietnamese) = Boku Kei Ka (Japanese). It’s all variations of 朴勁花.
If this were a Khmer name, it would be translated to Pali or into pure Khmer. The Former is reserved for special people (nowadays “cool” people). Usually the surname would be the same but the given name would be translated. So it would be B’ka Klang Pak or B’ka Thom Pak which sounds like a lousy Muy Thai boxer name. I don’t know how to translate this in to Pali but it would be long.
Lao Daung Duen is a name of a Lao song.
WowbaggerOM:
I don’t know–“Pharyngulistas” is kind of evocative of crossed bandoliers and armed insurrection. I like it.
Also to clarify, it isn’t my real* name.
*To be sure, my real** name in English isn’t my real name either.
** And that’s still not my real name according to officials in SEA.
‘Pharygulistas’ has been my collective epithet of choice for years. You Make Me Vomit.
When you put it that way it’s a bit less grating -most of the time the ‘-istas’ endings makes me think of ‘fashionistas’, which isn’t a comparison I particularly appreciate.
Oh, yeah. My referents are Sandanistas and .
and Zapatistas.
Is the lack of ‘n’ intentional? I don’t want to riff on a typo, especially given my propensity for them.
Ramen. Your concern is noted, Walton. But if you’re going to fill up threads with it, I can spare a little more acrimony for you:
See, your mistake there was assuming that anyone cares what you think about killfile. And that was at least the fourth time you’ve made that comment. Keep it up, and you may end up in one.
Gyeong Hwa Pak (@800):
Thank you so much for indulging my curiosity. And that’s a very pretty song.
I thought I would respond in kind with a video of one of the songs I recall from my long-ago sojourn in Seoul… but it turns out that 20 year old imperfect phonetic memories of lyrics in a language I never actually knew are strangely insufficient to get much Googling accomplished; go figure! The only snippet of a lyric I can recall is sarang hae, which is apparently Korean for “I love you,” and is thus part of the lyric for roughly 1.347×1024 Korean pop songs, none of which seems to be the one I recall.
Ah, well… yeogi maekju chuseyo!1
1 I’m sure I’ve hashed the transliteration, but that’s the one Korean phrase I’m sure I remember: “Beer here, please!” ;^)
Naw, typo (i.e. Chimp cooties).
Still, riff away.
I’ve always found the traditional ‘Pharyngulites’ to be a suitable collective term – but I’m old-fashioned that way. Admittedly, I do tend to take offence* at any variation that’s nothing more than a thinly-veiled attempt at an insult.
*What little I do take, which isn’t very much.
I usually call them “Phreepers”. (Due to the poll crashing phenomenon of which the Freepers are also famous.)
I thought I had something, but the funny boner is gone. Stupid short attention span.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Korean_beer_and_takju-01.jpg
pick one.
I remember hearing Palin’s followers described as Palinistas….seemed a pretty good fit.
Do Pharyngulites pack enough heat to be istas.?
windy @793, yeah, quite right, and I’ve said so there.
I guess I’m multi-tasking too much to pay that place full attention.
At this point, I’m pretty much on auto-pilot, and I probably should desist from responding there.
How accommodating of you! And what a selection!
When I was there it was pretty much just OB (my favorite) and Crown (reckoned as horse piss by those of us who drank OB). Oddly, I don’t recall seeing any American beer in the black market stalls, even though they seemed to have everything else.
Especially Spam… which was odd, because the local equivalent was arguably tastier than the real thing, at 1/10 the price. It’s a funny old world.
Anyway, because I was there for the purpose of teaching English, and thus
encouragedrequired to speak English with my students at all times, even outside of class, I learned almost no Korean: Pretty much just how to give directions to cabbies and order in restaurants (and that last only very minimally). I did learn the alphabet (Hangul), which my wife and I used to write “secret” notes to each other (English words spelled phonetically in Hangul)… but sadly, I’ve forgotten even that by now. It all sounds so exotic in retrospect; thinking of how normal it seemed at the time makes me feel a bit wistful.I regularly roll with botanistas.
We are not as badassy as we sound.
At this point, I’m pretty much on auto-pilot, and I probably should desist from responding there.
I’ve been thinking about posting random quotes from other posts here and there, just to watch attack-terrier stephie try to chew them up at random.
It took me a while to figure it out, but evidently the reason she feels so protective of greg and the blog there is that she works as an editor of Greg’s posts.
I have no idea if it goes further than that.
Overall, though, I’ve gotten bored of it, said all I wanted to say, and have nothing and nobody left there to defend myself.
I’ve always found the traditional ‘Pharyngulites’ to be a suitable collective term
There were a few tossing around “Pharynguloids” a while back, which I liked as it reminded me of a very old cartoon show I watched as a kid:
ah, better:
Herculoids
I used “Pharynguloids” in an email just this morning.
BS
I thought about wandering over and leaving a comment along the lines of “You know who else liked civility and not pissing on carpets? Adolf fucking Hitler.”
But I figured it might be misconstrued.
However, I post it here to rattle the cages of the Pharynguliteistaoids. I defy your cyberpistols!
+1
We need a TV show starring Paul W. and SC: The Silencers.
Bowler hats & leather catsuits optional.
Gyeong Hwa Pak, forgive me but my curiosity is piqued now. You mentioned Pali as a language in Cambodia… That wouldn’t be Pali, the middle Indo-Aryan language derived – but substantially different – from Sanskrit, supposedly the language of the people (‘Prakrit’) – one in which the Gautama Buddha chose to impart his teachings, would it? Is it still spoken in Cambodia? Amazing!
IIRC, Cambodia used to be Kamboj of yore, a first Hindu and then Buddhist empire that used to rule a substantial part of the Indochinese peninsula c.11th-14th century AD! Given that Gautama Buddha’s death is considered around 480 BC, the Pali language, then, has been around for more than 2500 years! Holy communications, Batman!!
Must go and find my old history text books…
Is the rate of autism really increasing, or just the rate of diagnosis, or is there no reasonable indication that would let us discern the two?
Pali is spoken in Cambodia, Thailand, Laos, Burma, and Sri Lanka. It is spoken only by scholars, monks, and the very religious. Outside of that it’s a dead language. It’s like Latin. However, there are many Pali words that are in use through out Southeast Asia. They’ve become so common that they actually replace native words. The pronounciation of Pali words differ from Regions to regions, and those adopted in to the native languages will relfect the rules of those languages.
E.g.
Satava (animal) becomes Sat or Sad in Khmer and Thai. Both words are used more often than the native words. (I can’t even recall what the native Khmer word for animal is.)
Pali is also used in creating names, especially in Thailand and Laos. Most of the names of Provinces in Thailand are from Pali (the southern provinces are corruptions of Malay names.)
fucking lol, that’s made my evening
SGBM, two recent large studies*, one from Western Australia and the other from California, looked at databases of autism cases over a fairly long period of time (>10 years) and found a good deal of increase in the autism cases (~6-42% IIRC). However, the authors in either study couldn’t reach a firm conclusion whether the rising figures represented a true rise in ASDs or were subject to various artefactual variables, such as consideration of younger ages at diagnosis, differential migration, changes in diagnostic criteria, inclusion of milder cases, and so forth. Therefore, the answer to your question is ‘not yet known’.
* Epidemiology. 2009; 20(1):84-90; Int J Epidemiol. 2009; 38(5):1245-54.
GHP, thank you for that clarification.
SGBM,
Orac knows.
As I understand it, your second option is the one. Advances in diagnostic criteria and technology have increased the apparent rate of incidence.
… and I’d not have posted if I’d seen Datta’s comment! :|
Thank you both, Kausik Datta and John Morales.
I thought as a collective we were the Pharynguhorde.
Strange gods, there may be a test of whether diagnoses really change rates coming soon. The recommendation for the DSM-V is to put all PDDs into ASD, but also t8o tighten down AS diagnoses (as I understand it), and no one is sure how agencies will use that data to determine treatment eligibility. So if diagnoses are the cause of the rise, one would think those numbers would change once the new rules are in place; if it’s an organic rise, the trend shouldn’t be affected much.
*I just wanted to put as many acronyms into one sentence as I could.
DSM-V – the “bible” of psych diagnoses, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. If it’s not in the book, you ain’t getting funding or accommodation for it. Currently on revision iv, next up is v.
PDD – Pervasive Developmental Disorder, also includes cagetory NOS (not otherwise specified), a catch-all bin for people with variant symptoms that cause daily living problems but don’t fit neatly into the other diagnoses.
ASD – autism spectrum disorders
AS – Asperger’s Syndrome (sometime written without the ‘s, but I don’t know why either is better than the other, like with the Down’s/Down thing)
Anyone seen this?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/feb/04/religion-cherieblair
When someone who holds religious beliefs about an issue does something believing that an omnipotent being will punish them for doing it, I take them at their presumed word that they really, really wanted to do it. For Miah, he wanted so badly to bash this other guy in the face that he was willing to put his immortal soul in jeopardy.
And being religious is evidence of what, allegedly?
Hitler might have been against pissing on carpets, but I heard he was all in favour of pooping on glass coffee tables.
SteveV, do not link to Brown this early in the day! Think of my blood pressure!
Did he post the wrong quotation, and leave out the one where Sanderson was saying anything like that?
*What’s up with this? Is her name Cherie Booth or isn’t it? Does she go by both?
SC, So it woke you up huh? – what do you think it did for my lunch?
SteveV, I ranted elsewhere yesterday about this.
Cherie Blair is a minion of Ratzi, as is her husband who converted after leaving office. Not surprised by this, disappointed but not surprised.
My opinion of the English legal system has gone downhill this week.
SC, Its both, her maiden name is Booth and is the one she uses professionaly, her married name is Blair. The other names used to describe this couple(Mr and Mrs Blair) will be left out as I do not want to wash our dirty laundry on PZ’s site
Taychrenn
FYI Booth is her maiden(?) name which she uses when practising as a QC (Queens Council ie senior barrister)
Oh crap, the Metro link you need to look at the 1st page of the spread, middle column, bottom of page.
OK, I really, truly am not trying to hijack the discussion here with this side question, especially as his is an important issue, but I’m still unclear on this. So she does go by “Mrs. Blair” in her private life? Or is it something that people just call her despite the fact that she hasn’t taken his name? Also, since she’s being discussed in the context of her profession, why can’t she just be referred to by her professional name [Cherie Booth, QC/Barrister/Judge-or-Whatever Booth, or just Booth (well, that’s probably too casual for y’all :))]?
My mother went by her maiden name professionally, as that’s the name she got her qualifications under, and my father’s surname privately. I think Cherie uses the same approach.
I think it’s a transitional thing. My wife and I each use our own names.
SC, In older English practice to use her maiden name in relation to Tony Blair would indicate that they wern’t married which is untrue. She would have gained here qualifications as Ms Booth and like many people in her situation continued to use here own name to avoid confusion (and to distingish her professional life from her political life, this was important given her political role as wife of the PM and profession as a Lawyer).
You might consider the first point old fashioned and wrong-I wouldn’t disagree with you
[Gee:] “I’m Jewish. What goes on inside Norfolk churches is not mine to judge. Neither is the way that other people practice their religion,”
Paul W.:
Stephanie Z, Thread Cop:
Oh, come now, Stephanie. It’s quick and easy if you’re not bound by intellectual honesty.
Stephanie Z, soon after:
See? There you go!
What whole argument of that? [The funniest aspect is that my response to Gee began “If you mean by this to imply…,” and he commented several times after this with every opportunity to clarify. He even acknowledged (though not fully), as I noted, that religion is highly dangerous, but then didn’t connect this to his earlier statements. Nor did he reply to the examples of contemporary Christian antisemitism and scary developments in the RCC with potential implications for Jewish people. If he had, Paul wouldn’t have had to ask about it now.]
Of course! How silly of us. It’s not his to judge. Unless it is. Then it is. But it still isn’t. Zing! Take that, Paul!
Check out “Jim” in this thread.
One Of Us!
So she does go by “Mrs. Blair” in her private life? – SC,OM
Don’t know – I guess only people who know her in private life (as opposed to the “private life” most public figures now parade for the media) would know that. I’ve also heard her called “Cherie Booth-Blair”, among other less polite epithets.
When I answer the phone, it’s quite common for me to be asked “Is that Mr. F*****” (well, not quite, I’ve blanked out most of my wife’s name). I then have to make a split-second decision whether this sounds like a cold call – in which case the answer is either “No-one of that name lives there”, or “I’ll see if he’s in”, followed by putting the phone down, off the hook, and leaving them to decide when to give up; or a professional contact of my wife, in which case I say “Yes”. Some of her relatives, bizarrely, insist on addressing envelopes to “Mr. and Mrs. Knockgoats” (well you get the idea, and in one case, they do indeed always get my name wrong). A now deceased relative of hers always addressed them to “Mr. and Mrs. Knockgoats-F*****”! I admit she makes things even more complicated by using three different forms of her personal name in different contexts.
If you ever team up with anyone on a long-term basis, SC (I’m assuming you haven’t, since you asked the question about C. Booth, QC), you’ll have all this fun too – even if you don’t actually marry (it was just the same before we did).
BTW, thanks for following the request I emailed you!
Yeah, I had a friend in grad school who complained about that with their relatives, which is part of the reason I was struck by this. If she goes by Blair in private life, then I think it’s of course fine to call her that, or to do the thing with the slash that Sanderson did. If not, then I don’t think it’s proper. In this context, I don’t see why it’s necessary to refer to her by anything other than her professional name, so it seemed kind of gratuitous.
At work on it. Thank you so much!
It’s fucking spring! The fucking pansies are blossoming!
<jumps into Jadehawk’s dream car, speeds off, and perforates three walls>
Also, Opera just crashed while trying to open the Leakegate thread at Deltoid. The second time it worked without problems.
That’s the scientist attitude. :-)
There are several documented cases of scientists who got bitten by deadly snakes, took a notepad and a pencil, and protocolled the details of their pain all the way to ending in AAAAAAAARGH like that inscription in Monty Python And The Holy Grail.
Full of win.
Didn’t guess that either. I didn’t think aratina was an actual name, but I still assumed femininity because it ends in -a…
Which reminds me… I have long wondered how the ancient Greek athletes managed to run naked. Can you just learn to ignore the side-to-side bouncing…? ~:-| Using a hand to hold everything in place would have defeated the entire alleged purpose, so that’s probably not what they did.
That’s very easy to understand. Remember that epic list of contradictions in the New Testament about which conditions are necessary or sufficient for salvation that I had compiled from two such lists at http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com? At home I’ve bookmarked it, so I’ll post the link later…
Luther just cherry-picked the most common claim on what is both necessary and sufficient for salvation – faith –, ran with it, and just ignored all the others.
Who is our Subcomandante Marcos? PZ looks too mild-mannered for it. But at least we’ve already got the “Viva la evolución” T-shirts.
My head spins.
ROTFL!
That’s the one PZ uses.
Priceless.
I’ve never seen anyone defend $cientology before, so that’s a rather sickening experience…
Which reminds me… French gravestones from up to a few decades ago give the impression that all women lost their given name at marriage (it’s listed as part of the maiden name!) and then replaced it by “Madame” (plus optionally the husband’s given name). When the husband died, they became “Madame Veuve*” followed by the surname…
* Widow.
In contrast, in China, it’s normal for both spouses to keep their entire names, though the children do get the father’s surname.
Ooh. My comment over on the scientologist blog is awaiting moderation. I’ll check back tomorrow.
In this context, I don’t see why it’s necessary to refer to her by anything other than her professional name, so it seemed kind of gratuitous. – SC, OM
Yes, I agree; there’s not even the excuse that people wouldn’t recognise her as “Cherie Booth” – there are no other public figures called “Cherie” that I can think of, and she has always been referred to at least sometimes as “Booth”.
I like to call them “Pharyngulators” because it is reminiscent of some of the older Arnold Schwarzenegger films of the post-Conan the Barbarian era.
Ever had one of those days where it felt like your major accomplishment of the day was reading your email and complaining about lack of productivity on Pharyngula?
Interesting, I didn’t know that. In Japan, both members of the couple must agree on a single surname in order to be on the same family register (it’s difficult for me to explain exactly what this is, someone else may have a link). The vast majority of Japanese couples, but not 100%, choose the man’s surname.
In marriages between a Japanese citizen and a non-asian foreigner, the surname of the Japanese citizen is adopted. It’s required that the name have a writing in Chinese characters in order to be listed on a register.
@ Dianne:
Yup. My thoughts exactly. Today is looking more like that all the time.
It’s quite simple David M. My birth/official name in the USA is an Anglicized corruption of a name that my parents intended to give me. However, when I first traveled to my parents’ homeland, they recognized only my middle name as a legitimate name (for a reason that I don’t understand.)
IIRC, people with Chinese or Korean surnames can keep their surnames because it consists of Chinese characters anyway, right?
The Japanese are older than the YEC’s age of the universe.
HIV Researchers Solve Key Puzzle after 20 Years. Excerpt:
#629 Celtic Evolution
We had a period when money was extremely tight and more or less existed on “bean stew” which was a mixture of pulses along with pearl barley and anything else (a variety of vegetables) that was cheap and could be made cheaper by buying in bulk. Throw anything we had into a slow cooker (equivalent to a casserole) and it was ready in a few hours.
Did we enjoy it? Not much as I remember it but it at least kept us (2 adults, 3 children) fed and warm over a difficult period.
I seem to remember the Great British stand-by of HP sauce was used to help make it edible.
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01318/hp-sauce_1318716c.jpg
#748 Nerd of Redhead
Oh No!
Its déjà vu all over again.
Pharynguhordites? Pharynguhordistas?
Lynna @ 858,
I posted this at ERV a week or so ago…:-)
Knowing the structure of this integrase should help understand how drugs manage to block it.
Faith and Football. The Super Bowl ad featuring Florida quarterback Tim Tebow and his mother (Focus on the Family funded ad, said to be anti abortion, but no one’s seen the actual ad yet), has drawn more fire. Excerpt:
#860
I have just had this vision …
[Ed. Told him that fish was going off but did he listen no, he didn’t]
Shut up Ed. Nobody wants to listen to you.
[Ed. Oo Er, hark at him …]
As I was saying, this vision. The Everlasting thread is like a Mobius strip or, even better, like a Titanoboa that has swallowed its tale. Eventually, everything will come round again. We will have Alan Clarke pleading to come back so he can talk about the Morrison Formation – he has found the remaining 60% of the Flood Geology answer! RogerS will be there with his sincere attempts to set the atheistic world of Pharyngula back on the right track. I accept your sincerity, RogerS but you really have chosen some hard nuts to crack. You have come to the Brazil nuts of the atheist continuum.
Everything we have argued about will come back. And it will keep going round and round and round.
My vision has turned into a nightmare: Titanoboas wrapped in bacon flying at low level, scareing the horses. Can anyone bring some sanity to this benighted Universe?
[Ed. No. It’s too late]
How will it all end? Will Ed.’s prediction come true? Tune in again next revival of the endless thread. (If you can be bothered!!)
Yup… we were 2 adults and 5 children and not only would such meals feed us, they may do so for another day or two after…
We complained, of course… but never vociferously… deep down we understood.
i like to call them “phariggulas”, goin out to the homies out there. peace.
whaddup my phariggula homies. tight.
Alan B.,
Bean stew? Bean stew? You were lucky! We lived on reconstituted cardboard and rat droppings, and were grateful to get it! And that were in’t’ good years!
[Sorry, couldn’t resist it. In fact, as I like to tell the youngsters of today “Eh, we ‘ad it easy when I were a lad! Free school milk and orange juice, free medical care, student grants you could live on, affordable housing, full employment. And that were in’t’ bad years!”]
#754 Lynna OM
Upon careful inspection (don’t tell the Mrs) all the girls seemed skinny, as you would expect for women taking part in a highly energetic, athletic event.
IANAE,H (I am not an expert, honest), but my understanding is that serious exercise sufficient to take off a substantial amount of weight will start by removing it from the upper part of the body (euphemism) with the thighs coming off a long time later (if you’re lucky). So, if the legs are thin, the bosom will be reduced and the amount of reinforced concrete needed to hold the upper structures in place will be lessened.
Hitting the floor so fast reminds me of the shock waves produced by earthquakes. Perhaps the lingerie designers can learn from the geologists helping to re-build Haiti …
#868 Knockgoats
KG (@868):
Our dad used to slice us in half with a bread knife and dance about on our graves singing hallelujah!
#763 and the whole debate about civility on this thread.
The first time I contributed to this site were so long ago, the endless thread hadn’t even been thought about.
No, seriously, I did make some contributions under a different name and I was having a reasoned conversation with another contributor towards the end of a thread where most others had moved on. The discussion was continually being interupted by someone (I don’t intend to dig up the name) who was so offensive that I pulled out and did not contribute again until quite recently.
There is vigorous discussion but there is also nastiness and verbally violent, vitriolic vituperation (how’s that for alliteration?).
On that occasion IMO it went far beyond anything I believed to be acceptable for a total newby. I must add that I have not seen such unpleasant treatment of a newcomer recently.
I suspect others have had bad experiences in the past on this thread which may be why it has its reputation.
#784 Owlmirror
Agreed. There are many interpretations of a basically simple message: love God and love your neighbour. And many people don’t follow it.
Alan B. #872
I actually first started coming to Pharyngula via references I saw in Phil Plait’s Bad Astronomy blog some 5 years ago or more… I remember there being discussions about tone on that blog…
Phil has little tolerance for nastiness of any kind, and frankly his blog is geared somewhat towards a more generic crowd, you might even say family based, and Phil wants it to be accessible to schools, etc… so it’s just a different environment with different rules of engagement… which is fine.
Phil has a general “don’t be a jerk” rule of thumb which sounds nice, but to me is far too open to subjective interpretation and is hardly a consistent unit of measurement.
At any rate, while reading through comments there some of the regulars would make reference to Pharyngula and how if you wanted to comment in a foul-mouthed, anything goes, rabid environment, you might better go there. While I like Phil’s blog and still frequent there (although I rarely comment anymore), I find Pharyngula to be more to my liking… not simply because of the foul mouth abuse and troll-stomping (and the bacon and lesbians, for sure), but because it’s simply a more open and raw forum. There is no filter and ideas and streams of thought run freely, are challenged, and we all learn something.
It’s a no bullshit format that I find refreshing. I’m not worried about offending someone’s sensibilities (as long as I don’t make identity-based personal attacks or bigoted hate speech… we do have some standards), make your case, back it up, prepare to defend it, and be prepared to get honest, no-holds-barred feedback, both positive and negative.
From a perspective of personal growth, I wouldn’t want it any other way.
#799 MrFire
You are forgiven, my son. Just say five ‘Hail Marys’ and one ‘Our Father’.
Yes, that was the purpose of the reply.
Sorry to say I’m not an expert in Christian apologetics!
Nice link @858, Lynna. Also in the article:
Ah, to be a protein crystallographer…
This is where I start to be able to follow a little. The paper itself suggests that you can see these inhibitors sitting in the active site of the protein, displacing the viral DNA, and effectively shutting down the activity of the integrase. Crudely analogous to filling up a door’s keyhole with cement, so it will never open.
Agreed. There are many interpretations of a basically simple message: love God and love your neighbour.
Yeah, and I might point out one minor detail is that Jesus put qualifications on who your neighbor is. “… so he asked Jesus, ‘And who is my neighbor?'”, followed by the parable about who your neighbors are not. A minor caveat to a “basically simple message”, I’m sure.
Another minor caveat would be about how people can do miracles. A small point hardly worth thinking about.
Another one would be about how to heal people by casting out demons. A small minor detail compared with the other basically simple message.
That’s an awful big book for a basically simple message. You would think maybe just a basically simple message would suffice.
They should have just asked Mithrandir.
on football and faith from Lynna’s post…
Onward Christian Athletes chronicles the penetration
quotemine ftw!
Grrrr, I was about to leave a comment on Greg’s blog, but the self-congratulatory inbred atmosphere and the castle mentality really pisses me off, it’s Greg and his 2 stooges Steph and DuW defending the blogosphere’s virginity against the dirty tone rapists of Pharyngula.
It gets annoying.
Alan B., Bill Dauphin,
Thanks…. I think the version I was mostly remembering was one put on by some of the boys in my year at school, as part of an end-of-year show – I’d been sure that sketch was where “And that were in’t’ good years!” came from, but I didn’t hear it in either of the versions you point to! Next you’ll be showing me they never said “No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition!”.
Sorry Alan B, I guess I was trying to say it’s not a basically simple message. The “basically simple message” line is just Christian propaganda.
“Hey how’s come people don’t see it my way. It’s a basically simple message. Anybody can see that.”
Greg just banned DuW. So now it’s just Stephanie.
#843 SC OM
There are a great many cynical people in the UK following the “reign” of Tony and Cherie as joint heads of state.
(Jack Straw, a lawyer and Home Secretary at the time quite deliberately referred to her as the First Lady and Tony Blair as Head of state. Like it or not, HM Queen Elizabeth is Head of State – and he knows it. Many found this deeply offensive. I suspect the Queen was not amused.)
Those cycnics will suggest that Connie Blair nee Booth uses which ever term she thinks is most useful to her. Thus, she has given talks in the US on Human Rights Law (about which she is an expert) but advertising herself as “Blair” because nobody in the US would recognise her maiden/professional name and they wouldn’t come and buy exorbitantly priced tickets.
Her UK professional name, however, is “Booth”
I am old fashioned enough to prefer a married woman to take on her husband’s name when she marries. But I accept that I am a child of my era. It is becoming more common over here for the husband and wife to take on a common surname which is in some way a combination of the 2 names. For example by hyphening the 2 surnames. Our younger daughter did that when she remarried. She dropped her divorced husband’s surname, brought back our family name and hyphenated it with that of her new husband.
‘course, I’m a little scared David M. might decide to tear me a new one for writing that sloppy comment.
#884 Oh dear. For Connie read Cherie.
“Well, that’s odd … I’ve just robbed a man of his livelihood, and yet I feel strangely empty. Tell you what, Smithers – have him beaten to a pulp.”
[/M. Burns]
Ah, happy, happy days! We made our own amusements then, repeating all the Monty Python sketches to each other, and (in my case at least), lusting after Julie Felix in The Frost Report and Judy Carne in Laugh-in. The latter lust, I think I’ve mentioned here before – obviously quite deeply ingrained in my psyche… and as I’ve just realised, my wife had (and still has!) a similar face and figure, and the first time I noticed her (about 1/4 century after I’d lusted after Judy), had very similar hair, and was wearing a dress about the length (though not the colour) Judy is wearing in the parts of this clip where she isn’t in a bikini.
Which is just… strange… given the line he quoted for banning him… unless he was joking… dunno… that whole thread makes my eyes cross. I think I’ll stop reading it now.
Yeah, reading the context of DuW. last few posts, I’m certain Greg was kidding… no?
You guys do know that Greg and DuW Stephanie are, like, on the side of goodness and happiness and stuff, right? You do know they’re the good guys, I hope. Just a thought!
Those cycnics will suggest that Connie Blair nee Booth – Alan B.
You know where “Connie” came from, Alan? Connie Booth is one of John Cleese’s ex-wives, and co-starred with him (while already ex, I think) in Fawlty Towers
I am old fashioned enough to prefer a married woman to take on her husband’s name when she marries.
Why? To show she’s no longer a person, just an appendage?
That was a joke. DuWayne is a rather impolite person (in fact, if you read a sample of his posts, they are rather like how it seems Greg/Stephanie assume every Pharyngula poster posts). The joke was that he is being banned for being polite.
I can only assume, but I’m rather sure of my interpretation.
I don’t know. Given that there were no smileys or other mark of sarcasm and that Laden doesn’t have a dungeon, I can say what just happened. The whole thread degenerated into a bile of hot mess.
That doesn’t mean we can’t argue with them.
You guys do know that Greg and DuW Stephanie are, like, on the side of goodness and happiness and stuff, right? You do know they’re the good guys, I hope. Just a thought!
sorry, was too busy actually paying attention to the content of what was actually being said there to pay attention to whose side was whose.
I rather thought that was the point though.
Mooney is on the “side” of good too.
so is Miller.
hardly should prevent us from dissecting their commentary though, right?
KG (@881):
I think the Four Yorkshiremen is somewhat like kimchee: There are as many (if not more) different recipes as people who make it!
OTOH, Rick (i.e., Humphrey Bogart) really doesn’t ever exactly say “play it again, Sam.”
;^)
Oh FFS, Ichthyic, don’t you know how an echo chamber works???
hardly should prevent us from dissecting their commentary though, right?
Nah you’re right of course. Well at least everybody seems to be having fun with it I guess.
Laden doesn’t believe in cues. He just says ambigious things and them bitches at people who read them wrong. It’s his shtick.
But he and DuWayne Brayton are friends. It was a joke. But you need to be familiar with them to come to that conclusion unambiguously. Much like you can’t understand what Laden is actually saying in any given post unless you pay attention to the context of weeks’ worth of his posts. It’s why I don’t really follow the blog anymore. Too smug and vaguely self-referential.
OTOH, Rick (i.e., Humphrey Bogart) really doesn’t ever exactly say “play it again, Sam.” – Bill Dauphin,OM
IIRC, he doesn’t even say “Play it, Sam.” – more like: “Play it, Sham.”.
Of course he does, he posts here ;) *ducks*
Bah, I don’t get anything at Laden’s blog. To hell with it all.
And Bryan Fischer makes me want to puke.
I’ve encountered the terms “apple-shaped people” and “pear-shaped people”…
Personally, I have just about no experience in losing weight and almost none in gaining it :-þ
Sounds like truth machine.
Indeed not. It’s “Nnnnnnobody expex the Spanish Inquisition!”
It’s pretty good, actually.
Perhaps it would be better still to say a key is put in that gets stuck, cannot be turned, and cannot easily be removed; but the main point – the lock is blocked so that the right key cannot be inserted – is the same.
Ugh. Concentrated ’60s ugliness. My eyes! The goggles, they do nothing!!! And the same holds for my ears…
I don’t actually feel sick, but there is some kind of cramp in the oesophagus.
Re #892: I’ve done Connie Booth an injustice: she co-wrote as well as starred in Fawlty Towers. She and Cleese were married at the time, but separated between the two series. She’s now a psychotherapist, living and working in London.
I just sent this email to the person who sent an update on my firm’s Haiti fundraising activities:
Apparenly some partner here has “ties” to them. This firm raised over $40,000 from individual contributions, and to their credit, some of it is also going to Partners in Health. If I get my $20 back, I’ll give it ALL to PiH. (I may seem naive, but I don’t care – it’s the principle. A firm this big and diverse should know better, and I don’t care how much of a Big Willy the guy with “ties” is.)
Oh, and does anyone know where I’ll need to go to apply for unemployment benefits in NYC?
David Marjanović,
Indeed not. It’s “Nnnnnnobody expex the Spanish Inquisition!”
Well done! You splotted my deliberought musteek!
Ugh. Concentrated ’60s ugliness. My eyes! The goggles, they do nothing!!! And the same holds for my ears
*Sigh* You had to be 14 and brimming over with adolescent hormones! But I admit I watched it with the sound off.
The background. The patterns. The colours… <facepalm>
Re Greg & DuWayne & Stephanie…
Greg was definitely joking—he pretended to ban DuWayne for apologizing.
(And maybe for apologizing to me, specifically, but I don’t especially think so. I think he was partly parodying people like Isis and Comrade PP and Zuska who sometimes seem to fetishize incivility in a way that even PZ doesn’t.)
I think things are going okay over there at the moment; there’s some actual communication going on.
One of the things that’s weird about the whole thing over there is that Stephanie really likes my evisceration of accommodationist rhetoric when it’s aimed at the likes of Mooney & Kirshenbaum, and has made similar comments herself.
(She even asked me to guest blog about the errors and deceptiveness of accommodationist rhetoric over at Quiche Moraine; I dropped the ball on that because I couldn’t satisfy myself, then, that I knew just how to say what I wanted to say. I think I’ve got a better handle on it now, and maybe the opportunity will come up again.)
Stephanie seems to me oddly reluctant/unable to recognize that most of what Henry Gee did was just run-of-the-mill accommodationist BS, straight out of the Nisbet/Mooney playbook, with the very same fallacies and weaselry, woven together with some truly astonishing Godwinning.
She is fundamentally on our side in some very important basic ways, and I suspect we’ll get it straightened out eventually.
Don’t go jumping down her throat, please. (Or Greg’s.) They are basically allies, even if it doesn’t seem like it at the moment. We’re just having some communication problems, IMHO.
Part of the problem is that some of us took offense (understandably IMO) at some things that weren’t actually aimed at us, but at the aforementioned trio of incivility fetishizers. (I may not have the targets exactly right, but it’s not PZ, and not most of us. If they’d clarified that better and sooner, a lot of the flamage could have been avoided, but so it goes on the intertubes.)
The background. The patterns. The colours…
You think at 14, and in 1968, I would have noticed any of those??
the Sixties.
#881
The version I linked to was the original which pre-dated Monty Python.
Afficianados of English humour will recognize those on the 2 ends:
On my left (as viewed) Tim Brooke-Taylor, later of the Goodies and still going strong in comedy panel shows on the radio (such as, “I’m sorry, I haven’t a clue”).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/clue/article/tim.shtml
On my right Marty Feldman. Born in England but with a Ukranian Jewish background. Marty Feldman was an English writer, comedian and film and television actor, famous for his bulging eyes, which were the result of a thyroid condition.
http://www.comedy-zone.net/standup/comedian/f/feldman-marty.htm
most of what Henry Gee did was just run-of-the-mill accommodationist BS, straight out of the Nisbet/Mooney playbook, with the very same fallacies and weaselry, woven together with some truly astonishing Godwinning – Paul W.
It was a lot worse than anything I’ve seen from the accommodationists: accusing anyone who disagreed with him of wanting to gas him and burn down synagogues, but lacking the courage to do so.
Don’t go jumping down her throat, please. (Or Greg’s.) They are basically allies
I’m not particularly interested in having fuckwitted lying arseholes as allies. However, I’m not planning to comment any further on their blog, so I won’t get in the way of the raprochement you want to achieve.
#888 Knockgoats (Congrats on the Nelson)
Ah yes. Judy Carne.
My favourite was, “It may be rice wine to you but it’s saki to me!”
I have many fond memories (or quasi-memories!) of Marty Feldman, in particular his own sketch show, It’s Marty. In one episode, he appeared at either the beginning or the end, I can’t recall which, and talked seriously to the audience, reminding them that in the current hot weather, with a lot of people leaving their windows open, having the TV volume turned up too loud could be very annoying to one’s neighbours…
“Another good way of annoying your neighbours, is to set fire to their dustbins!”
I’ve been checking in, and I beg to differ with that assessment, at least as it concerns matters of substance. You’ve left some comments that could form the basis for a productive discussion of the central issue of civility and rules (something I also tried several times earlier in the thread), and no one has engaged you.
There’s nothing weird about this. In fact, there’s a word for it.
Paul, I realize and appreciate that you’re trying to be a peacemaker here, but please don’t tell me who my allies are or whom not to criticize. Greg said something truly terrible, and owes me an apology. It’s not a communcation problem. It’s a Greg problem.
Those missionaries in Haiti were charged with kidnapping:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123377399
P.S.: This is embarrassing, but how do I make a link appear as text? Like so “charged with kidnapping” above linked to the story? Thanks…
#888 Knockgoats (Congrats on the Nelson) – Alan B.
You’ve lost me there, and googling “Nelson 888” doesn’t help, unless I want a restaurant in Vancouver. A pun on “Horatio”? Something to do with having one arm, one eye, and Lady Hamilton? I know 888 is a very lucky number in Chinese numerology (and oddly enough, I was in Vancouver when I learned this). Enlighten me, please!
“allies” in which war, exactly?
#877 The 386sx Society said:
Sorry 386sx, I don’t understand the point you are making here. The original question was raised by someone who wanted to make it complicated:
“Love God and love your neighbour as yourself”
“But who is my neighbour?”
Jesus did not put qualifications on who your neighbour is – He widened the view of the Jews of His time from my neighbour being fellow Jews (and with the Jews being divided into groups, Jews of my own group such as Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes etc.). He pointed out the bad example set by 2 groups of Jews who ought to have known better. He then used a good example of the Samaritan who was looked down upon by the Jews. Your neighbour is not restricted by race, class, religion, sex etc. He mixed with Pharisees, the “common people”, Roman soldiers and officers, “sinners”, tax collectors who worked for the occupying power etc. etc. He would have mixed with Pharynguloids. I’ll bet the conversation with PZ would have been fascinating to listen to.
I still contend the basic message is simple.
It can be, and has been, made extremely complicated by those who want to use the simple message of love and service to gain wealth, power and control over people. That is complicated.
Gyeong Hwa Pak,
My first memory of Marty Feldman is in the oft-maligned Yellowbeard, a quasi-Python film in that Graham Chapman (who co-wrote it), John Cleese and Eric Idle were all in it.
Well, my own impression was that Greg didn’t mean to imply that you were an “antisemite,” (I know, dumb term) but what he said was irresponsibly stupid, because it sure did lend itself to that interpretation. I could be wrong.
Either way, I agree he owes you an apology and shouldn’t be blase about the whole deal. I don’t know what to do about that, and I understand if you’re seriously pissed.
Iris@905,
Afraid I can’t advise, being a Brit, but I can at least say “Well done!”.
So I will: well done! Hope your courageous gesture doesn’t have the result you fear – and sometimes courageous gestures are the pebbles that start the landslide.
Perserved Chameleon as art.
Kyorosuke,
Pretend the brackets are greater/lesser than signs.
[a href=”URL HERE”]Text or Picture here[/a]
Gyeong Hwa Pak @ 924:
Thank you so much! I can continue to strive towards competence.
#917 Knockgoats asked about 888 & “Nelson”
To understand, you have to be aware of some of the arcane corners of an obscure game:
CRICKET
A Nelson is when the score of a team is a multiple of 111 runs. Thus, a Nelson turns up at 111, 222, 333 etc. runs. You got a Nelson when you got the 888th comment on the thread.
It is supposed to be unlucky (although if your team has got to even 555, say, that’s pretty lucky in my book). It is commonly accepted* that it comes as follows:
One of the ways a batsman can be “out” in cricket is if the bowler knocks the horizontal bails off the top of the 3 vertical stumps which will leave your “wicket” that you failed to defend looking like the number 111.
If you think thats obscure then let’s go on to the link with Nelson. Nelson was wounded several times and lost 1 eye and 1 arm. Some have suggested** that the first 2 stumps 11 are the eye and the arm he lost. A few who know nothing*** about Nelson suggest the 3rd 1 is that he lost a leg too. Rubbish but people will believe anything!
The generally accepted theory**** is:
Nelson: 1 eye, 1 arm and 1 overwhelming desire to win and serve his country.
Footnotes:
* [Ed. this is what Alan B thinks it means and other people are wrong, wrong, wrong!]
** [Ed. those who agree with Alan B]
*** [Ed. those who disagree with Alan B]
**** [Ed. work it out for yourself!]
Charles Darwin may have written about the Origins of Species, but National Geographic writes about the origins of Charles Darwin.
Sven,
The “New Atheism” thing, and particularly debunking most of the Nisbet/Mooney/Scott type of accommodationist nonsense, with its NOMAish BS and its willful ignorance of Overton issues. (Most specificially the accommodationists’ systematic straw manning of both the science/religion conflict issue and the strategic issue.)
That’s what makes the recent dustup about Henry Gee so bizarre and (to me) morbidly fascinating.
Knockgoats:
Well, yeah. That’s what I meant by “truly astonishing Godwinning.” It was surreal.
One of the things I’m curious about is what the fuck is Henry’s major malfunction, such that he’d go there. I have several hypotheses.
#892 Knockgoats
So that’s what you think marriage is all about? Well I don’t so please don’t suggest I do. If you knew us, you would know that I do not look on my wife as “just an appendage”.
I’m curious as to your understanding of what he did mean to say or imply.
It can be, and has been, made extremely complicated by those who want to use the simple message of love and service to gain wealth, power and control over people. That is complicated.
The problem is that the only Jesus we have is a literary character, and the complications you note, and more besides, arise in the very literature from which we might hope to derive a simple message. The various authors of the NT texts were already putting poor Yeshua through his paces long before anybody with any actual wealth, power or control over people cared one bit about what he supposedly said and did.
The implication would be that that is what the old-fashioned reason for “a married woman…[taking] on her husband’s name” is, I think.
My wife took mine, but it’s something I put no pressure on her either way to do. Not that I think there’s anything wrong with it, in principle.
That’s exactly what I’m saying.
<a href=”http://www.asdf.com”>Like so.<a>
Like so.
I think it’s the one on cretinism.
you mustn’t… I repeat, you MUST NOT drive a $100000 car through anything thicker than paper
*hugs abused car*
there there, poor thing, I’ll protect you from the evil nerd
Pharynguhordite sounds like a type of rock
holy fuck! It turns out I have a split personality, and my alter ego is C_E! That’s exactly how I ended up here, and how I feel about those two blogs, word for word :-p
oh yeah, because The Nineties weren’t an assault on the senses. like, not at all :-p
what a stupid thing to say! it’s not marriage that’s being discussed, it’s the “taking on the husband’s name” aspect of it. which does, indeed, feel like your personality is being annihilated even when it’s not on purpose. I know what I’m talking about! It’s exactly how I felt when I got married; I took my then-husbands name because I liked it more than my maiden name (I even kept it after the divorce, and not ever planning on giving it back, either), and every time I was addressed as Mrs. L. (and especially as one half of Mr. and Mrs. S. L.), it felt like there wasn’t a me anymore, just my husband’s wife. Not fun, being identified as an appendage to your guy. Not fun at all. Made me want to switch back to my maiden name, even though I didn’t like it. In the end though, I kept the name and got rid of the husband, instead :-p
Let me re-ask Kg’s question without the leading addendum:
Why?
Is there a rational reason for your “preference”? Do you think that there is something intrinsically good about practices that are “old-fashioned”?
I assume you’d agree with me that it’s none of your business (unless it’s your marriage we’re discussing). So why express this general “preference” at all?
Jadehawk, you’ve been married? You’ve got layers, you have. Just like an onion.
I can see the practical advantages of a married couple having a single surname*, but why does it have to be the man’s?
* There are situations where the disadvantages of changing one’s surname outweigh that, but that’s another story.
Quite. And I’d expand beyond this to say: this is more or less my view of the whole of the text, old testament and new, now that you mention it.
I mean, from the time the first desert priests started putting this stuff in writing to the council of Nicaea and beyond, these are texts that have had the grubby paws upon them of any number of dodgy characters with various peculiar political axes to grind. What comes out the other end is naturally a mash, and there is no wonder there are contradictions. And even speaking of a central message is naturally subjective. You can roughly identify a sort of character in the centre of the new testament texts, a general flavour of his temperament, but what you’d really expect a disinterested observer to take as a lesson from all of the material is pretty hard to call. It’s just way too all over the place. Like so many religions, almost a sort of textual Rorschach blot. What people find therein tells you as much about them as it does about what was there in the first place.
Greencards don’t grow on trees, you know. ;-)
Anyway, I was gonna add that when I talked about this disappearance-of-self feeling with the then-husband’s grandmother, she said she felt the same way at the beginning, but then she got used to it. So it’s not just us evil, spoiled, feminazi young ‘uns that feel that way about the name-change.
Seems a bit weird to put Scott in the same camp as Nisbet and Mooney. You don’t see Scott telling Richard Dawkins to not write books explaining evolution.
I think I’ve caught up with the time zones and the rapidly expanding thread.
I’m exhausted!! New thread tomorrow.
Bed calls.
The only reason the Redhead took my name is that it didn’t change her initials. Not that I cared.
On the subject of taking on names, what if American society were to take on the old Indonesian custom of having no surname if you’re not upper class? How would that work out?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married_and_maiden_names#Spanish-speaking_world
David Marjanović,
My son suggested to my wife and me that he would consider changing his surname to his wife’s if it mattered to her. (He’s not even dating, so this is a future issue.)
My wife took my last name when we got married because she disliked her maiden name. It’s one of those Polish names with an overabundance of consonants and a scarcity of vowels, difficult for English speakers to spell or pronounce correctly. My surname is a quite unremarkable anglo-saxon name.
I knew a man named Pickelheimer who married a woman named Cunningham. He became Mr. Cunningham.
hmmm… would that render American Class officially hereditary, or would we be having naming ceremonies once someone hits an average yearly income of $1 million a year?
…OK. Looks like I’ll have have to use Donald Duck’s alternative next time I want a kind of angry headdesking. Problem is, few people have seen it… it’s in a comic by Carl Barks and shows Donald jumping against a wall in such a way that he impacts about horizontally, a bit above his own height, with both arms stretched out and fists clenched… a powerful picture, I’m telling you.
Both addressed with the husband’s first name? That still exists?!?
And that at an age where my history has been perfectly linear! As if planned out, save for a few bureaucratic delays!
May I ask why? Meaning-wise it’s nice… was it the spelling that is impossible to explain to an American bureaucrat? Or the r (some people care about such things… the one in my surname is among the reasons why I’m not called Dragan…)?
I knew a man named Pickelheimer who married a woman named Cunningham. He became Mr. Cunningham.
Man, that screams for hyphenation.
Pickelheimer-Cunningham is the awesomest name ever. For someone else.
that sounds oh so familiar, hehe. This is EXACTLY the reasoning that went with my name-change(Germans can’t spell those names either, btw. I once had three insurance cards from the same insurer, with my name spelled in three different, incorrect ways *sigh*), and why I’m keeping the new name. Except now I have to explain to people that no, I’m most definitely not from Scotland, and neither are any of my ancestors.
I am sure that there are society that actually have celebrations for new names. In fact, the former president of Indonesia, Megawati Sukarnoputri, took on her fathers name as her surname where her father did not have a surname.
This is an issue I’ve never really thought about (mainly because my chances of ever getting married, to anyone of any gender whatsoever, are comparable to Ray Comfort’s chances of winning the Nobel Prize for Medicine).
But if I ever were to get married to a woman, I personally really wouldn’t want her to adopt my surname. To me, it perpetuates the worst and most patriarchal aspects of “traditional” marriage; it’s a legacy from the days when a wife was essentially her husband’s property. It has no legitimate place in a gender-equal society.
Plus, I don’t like my surname that much. It’s not weird, but it’s a bit dull, and people often get the spelling wrong. (No, before anyone asks, “Walton” is not my surname. It’s a nom de internet that I’ve been using for several years now, for reasons that I can barely remember.)
Holy feckin’ Jaysus.