WHY DO PEOPLE STILL BELIEVE IN THIS HOMEOPATHY CRAP?
Do you think homeopathy can help in the current swine flu pandemic?
Yes (71.4 %) 1484 votes
No (13.3 %) 276 votes
Can’t say (2.3 %) 47 votes
Yes, but won’t be allowed to! (13.0 %) 271 votes
The only way homeopathy could possibly help is by preventing dehydration…but why pay for an imaginary medicine when you can get that benefit from your water tap?
And by means of the placebo effect of course. Of course that only goes for the believers…
I must be one of the first PZ fans to hit the poll; it’s still lopsided in favor of the nonsense. I suppose it is still early in the day…
I did my part, along with a comment on the poll that “Homeopathy is quackery”, which I see the prior 3 or 4 voters also said. However, there was a long diatribe about 5 or 6 votes down about how “wonderful” and “effective” it was, and the vote is still lopsided the wrong way.
Did my part. It is early yet. The tide should change in a few hours.
JC
Voted No and said why, in civil terms.
Poll is still heavily slanted toward the crackpot end, though.
It’s early days yet, but I’m heartened by the messages folks are leaving behind. Keep it clean and factual, folks, or the homeopaths will be riding the waaaaaaaaahbulance complaining at us meany sciencey types!
I’m having trouble “voting” at all. I keep getting the response:
Neither diagnosis is correct. I get the above even if I delete all turd droppings, er sorry, cookies, spewed by that silly hpathy.com site.
WTF?
How much research has been done in developing homeopathic remedies for this viral infection?
We need answers to this question before we can answer their poll … oh, wait … magic is constrained by such petty concerns.
shoulda been “magic isn’t constrained”
Some personal experience here. A few years ago, I developed a persistent, dry cough that sometimes gets so severe it makes my head hurt, and sometimes fades entirely for months. I visited pneumologists, gastric specialists, allergists and other doctors, getting a different diagnosis each time and never getting it fixed. I’,m uninsured, so the whole journey cost me money I didn’t really have.
Finally, after much weepy insistence from my family, I went to see a homeopathy doctor. He asked more questions, sent me away with some cheap water-alcohol solution to drink every few hours.
Over the following weeks, the situation improved a little bit, though not much. Placebo effect, in all likelihood.
So I think the quality of service offered by the real doctors, who often don’t even bother to look at you before asking for 37 different exams and still leave you sick, is a major factor in why the alternative trends retain their appeal.
It’s on a quack site. They’ll probably pull the poll the moment it goes against them, or immediately delete the votes.
Urgh, homoeopathy. Consider this poll Pharyngulaised.
Still very lopsided, but is slowly changing. “No” has doubled compared to the numbers posted above.
What I find dodgy is that the default option when loading the page is “Yes”…
G
I’ve done my part. Since the above numbers were posted it’s now at 1493 – 615. So 330 more no votes than yes in about 45 minutes by my count. I’m dismayed that the ‘yes, but it won’t be allowed to’ category is as high as it is. It seems as if some readers there feel pre-persecuted.
It will be interesting to check back in a couple of hours as the east coast US wakes up.
I voted. The poll is looking better by the minute.
Responding to #10, it was either placebo or you just reverting to the mean. The quality of service (or rather, lack of it) offered by doctors has no bearing on wether homeopathy works. It doesn’t.
“Yes, but won’t be allowed to?”
Poor, persecuted homeopaths!
Back when Harry Potter was at its height, there was a vocal group of people who were absolutely convinced that Harry and Hermione would get together, and called themselves “Harmonians”.
They were the lit-crit equivalent of Dana Ullman, Michael Behe, or Deepak Chopra. For instance, when the author said that Harry and Hermione had a platonic relationship, they read Plato, and found that in one book, Aristophanes describes the myth of when everyone had two pairs of genitals, but then were split into two, and they spend their lives looking for their soulmates. So they claimed that clearly, “platonic” here meant that Hermione was Harry’s perfect soulmate.
Yes, seriously. And that was just one incident among many. They also claimed they were the only moral choice, that people who thought Ron and Hermione would get together were emotionally stunted, immature, and, in their more strident moments, brain-damaged.
They had a complete meltdown after Half-Blood Prince came out, which was absolutely *hilarious* to follow. Basically, total denialist idiots being faced with proof they were wrong, and getting really, really upset about it. Most of the sites that the nutters set up have disappeared from the internet, but some information can be found at http://www.journalfen.net/community/hp_cornfield/ and a few other places.
Anyway, at around the height of their batshittery, one site did a poll about one of their crank essays, asking whether it was a convincing explanation of how Harry and Ginny getting together in Half Blood Prince. As huge numbers of people were monitoring them in order to laugh, the poll came down overwhelmingly “no”.
So the text for the “no” option suddenly became something like “Yes, it’s the best essay I ever read, and incredibly convincing”.
Done it. Of course, the problem with ambushing this poll is the way homeopathy is supposed to “work”. The higher the proportion of no to yes in the vote, the more positive the website will claim the outcome.
#7, the cookies set by hpathy.com may not be visible to you, but your browser retains a memory that they used to be there. You just need to be more open-minded.
Well, that was FUN. Pharyngulites — your votes and comments might not change any homeopath’s minds, but I enjoyed reading them all. It’s bedtime in New Zealand, but I expect to find the poll fixed in the morning.
This is not even true with most of the liquid preparations as the ethanol percentage is too high.
This is the untold secret of efficacy.
burp
I was going to say the only thing that homeopathy really does help is a hang over. Be we all know that a Bacon Sandwich is the real cure for that.
I was thinking that myself!
BTW the poll is still lop-sided at 37% no to 51% yes – keep at it ilk!
Voted NO
Lack of CREDIBLE evidence of effect + no SOUND theoretical reason to expect an effect –> No effect (within bounds of reasonable doubt.)
Alternative medicine has either not been demonstrated to work or has been demonstrated not to work.
You know what alternative medicine which works is called? – MEDICINE!
There is no conspiracy of scientists.
Outsiders are sometimes right, but you’ve had a few hundred years now and many chances and still nothing more than anecdote.
Bacon sandwich? Funny name for a ferret, innit?
I voted! Can anyone truly doubt the power of homeopathy?
I just voted, and ‘shared my opinion’. As the Irish (and doubtless others) say – vote early, vote often. :-)
Homeopathy: a cruel fraud perpetrated on the sick by themselves.
The first poll I’ve seen with a suggested response already filled in. Just goes to show the dishonesty of the “hpaths”.
humm Ferret sandwich…
1512 Yes
1478 No
Summon the squid horde!
Told that “Homeopathy was rubbish and to get a real job”
Poll nicely diluted. Still a little bit of work to go before we overtake the yeses, but:
Yes (45.3 %) 1512 votes
No (44.9 %) 1499 votes
Can’t say (1.5 %) 49 votes
Yes, but won’t be allowed to! (8.3 %) 277 votes
Total votes #: 3337
Only need another 13 of you to get over there…
I would never give plain water
To my wife, or son, or daughter
Any more than I would bleed them, or would chant some silly spell.
If their symptoms verge on flu-ish
I want medicine that’s true-ish
Give me proven (double-blind) effective drugs, or go to hell.
Yay Cuttlefish!
GO GO GO VOTE.
helpless as a good friend wasted time and much money after a cancer diagnosis with these fracking frauds. Sense (patience and an oncologist with great people skills) prevailed, but there is no circle of hell deep enough for these bastards.
and, yea, it’s an utterly meaningless and empty gesture. But according to their idea nothing is effective, so VOTE OFTEN. (A Chicago voting rights tradition where everyone votes: the living, the dead, and the empty space in between)
I’m sure that magic proponents will see the result (slight majority for ‘no’ now) as evidence that there’s some kind of scientific controversy about homeopathy, that only about half of scientists think it’s bullshit. Those eight percent of course are always the conspiracy theorists who will keep on saying the same stuff in decades. Heck, fairy tales persist for millenia if the propaganda machine works properly.
ANYONE who believes this deserves to die!
If the Bacon Sandwich/ferret reference made no sense to anyone, go here to have it explained.
A lot of people who take homeopathic nostrums don’t really understand what homeopathy is. They think it has something to do with herbs, or that it works like vaccines. It’s on the shelf in the pharmacy in a nice, glossy package, and there’s a mistaken belief that it couldn’t be there if it wasn’t real medicine — there’s some kind of consumer protection working for them, either the government or the medical profession. No. There’s not. Not for homeopathy there isn’t. It’s biggest defense is that it “does no harm.” Because it’s inert.
Those people who do understand what homeopathy is — and yet take it anyway — tend to live conspiracy theories in their heads, and believe in magic. They also think very small, in that personal experience and evaluation is, to them, the strongest kind of evidence there is. “I tried it, and it worked. So it must work, and mainstream science will one day follow along. Some day. Real soon, now. Everyone will accept it.”
They say the same thing about religion.
Voted.
Love the “Yes, but won’t be allowed to!” option: “The Man’s always keepin’ the memory water down!”
“Howls of derisive laughter, Bruce!”
No kings,
Robert
bacon + bread = unnecessary dilution of bacon.
Moggie #19
They must be based off of IP because I tried to use another browser and that didn’t work either.
Last night I was at a party and was naturally discussing the swine flu with another party guest. She told me about how her room mate has been making “thieves’ oil” and leaving it all over the house in an effort to ward off the swine flu. Apparently thieves’ oil was used by body-robbers during the Black Plague to protect them from the disease.
I asked my friend whether she believed her room mate’s efforts would be successful. She said, “I don’t know. I mean, it was used a long time ago so there might be something to it. And she knows a lot about homeopathy, so maybe she’s onto something.”
I took the opportunity to gently educate her about what homeopathy is and how it “works.” My friend seemed surprised, having been told for months by her friend that homeopathy was some kind of natural miracle cure. Happily, my friend is smart enough to know that atoms don’t have memory and that it’s retarded to think that diluting something that causes an ailment is an effective way to treat it. But she still wasn’t sure the thieves’ oil wouldn’t ward off the dread swine flu. She told me that her room mate, who is a kindergarten teacher at a public school, plans to bring the thieves’ oil to her classroom to protect the kids.
I hope parents find out and flip their shit. This is, after all, Salt Lake City, where such magical concoctions are frowned upon. Prayer works much better. ;)
In this morning’s New York Times, public health officials suggested that reliance on homeopathy was a contributing factor in the high death rate from this flu in Mexico. Evidently homeopathy and other “alternative” treatments are very popular and people tend not to seek actual medical care until things are very serious indeed. This means that the people showing up in hospitals are much farther along and harder to treat.
FWIW
That’s the first thing that I noticed. I noticed that even before I saw that the poll is on a homeopathy site.
But there’s a more serious issue here: Phayngulated this poll is futile! Even if we dilute the YES votes down to less than 1%, that will only make them stronger and more effective. Pharyngulating that poll ensures a YES victory.
humm. I’m wondering is we should start a baconeopothy movement
Let’s not go over board people, if we dilute this poll to a 6X (one yes per million nos?) or 24X dilution, then it might start convincing these people EVEN MORE!
My word, it gives us the opportunity to explain our vote, and we all do. They’re popping up there at a rate of knots.
The homeopath’s mindset is a fascinating one. They believe that water retains a memory of the solutes it once contained. But they don’t seem to take into account the memory of all the poo and sewage it must then surely retain.
Just remind anyone who brings up water memory, that if water has memory, homeopathy is essentially treating anything with shitwater.
No, ‘guv, that’s all wrong. I call my bacon sandwiches Roast Ferret. You can get ’em either -on-a-Stick or -in-a-Bun. So fresh they contain parts the ferret hasn’t even noticed yet is missing. Mustard’s extra.
I left the following comment: “My vote started out as “yes” and after diluting it repeatedly I assumed it would become a much more powerful “yes,” but somehow it became a “no” instead.”
Fun times.
if
and Baconeopathy
I see my typos are going strong today
Cuttlefish is winning the thread, with the Rev. BDC coming up fast.
I voted with Firefox, but then the sight wouldn’t let me vote with Safari. I think it records the IP address.
Amazing. They actually allow unmoderated comments. Already its full of scorn – Lovely to see! I’m guessing someone’s gonna freak soon, so I’d better get back to keep an eye on it.
Speaking of poor medicine choices – all Aussies should keep an eye on ‘Sunday Tonight’ on 7 on Sunday. They’re having a ‘debate’ about vaccinations, and I’m sure they’ll cock it up again and give the pro-disease crowd far too much ‘benefit-of-the-doubt’. I expect to be writing disgusted emails to the station on Monday. *sigh*
Doh, #53, sight => site. *headdesk*
You’re wondering?
*Typos were corrected to ease reading, not to point out a Rev. failing. The good Master of Bacon already identified them.
Evil Bender wins Best Comment if you ask me:
“My vote started out as “yes” and after diluting it repeatedly I assumed it would become a much more powerful “yes,” but somehow it became a “no” instead.”
The No votes just broke the 50% mark too!
It’s sad. Even with the Pharyngulites weighing in on the poll, 39% have voted “Yes”.
Well, duh, that’s obvious. If you take tap water, you’ll overdose!
Just in case they start deleting votes, here’s the current tallies.
Yes (38.6 %) 1526 votes
No (53.0 %) 2097 votes
Can’t say (1.3 %) 50 votes
Yes, but won’t be allowed to! (7.1 %) 281 votes
Baconeopathy.
Bacon can cure anything that ails you, and there is no need to dilute it. In truth, more bacon is better.
(Correction. Actually, that show is called ‘Sunday Night’.)
And the No vote is up to 53.3%, and the comments are full of inconvenient truths :)
Baconopathy. I am SO there already. And you know what?
IT WORKS!! Living proof right here!!
I am stuffed with bacon, and *I* don’t have ANY flu – swine or otherwise! It’s because the flu-bug is trying to ESCAPE the pig, not go back to it! Scientifically PROVEN!
EAT BACON! The Reverend has blessed us!
JC
Even the “curing dehydration” claim doesnt work when the homepathic remedy comes in the form of those ridiculous sugar nodules.
Seokso @ the ultimate answer to the question of life, the universe, and everything suggests:
Yes, that’s my suspicion as well. I tried four(!) different browsers, including one text-based one (w3m), and they all got the same bogus “error”. So either the quacks don’t like me (the feeling is mutual!), or France (weird, this brand of quackery seems popular), or…
Even so, I was allowed to post a comment, which did show up. So my guess is besides not having a clew what is and isn’t silly (they probably don’t even like bacon?), they are as incompetent at pointless poll rigging/restricting as they are at evidence.
Yup, there it is:
Sounds a bit snarky to me :)
Voted! However, I just can’t shake the habit of making and eating chicken soup when sick. It’s nutrients and fluids! Two important things to have when you’re sick! And even though I don’t have the flu (yet: I’m paranoid) I did make a big pot for my friends who are sick and just had a bowl for breakfast.
awwww they sussed us out. i will never become a better human being!! Never!
SCIENCE!
I decided to take the Homeopathy course they offer for free. The discalimer makes for interesting reading and I’m sure the course will convert me to a true believer.
Once I’m done I will be happy to send anyone medicine guaranteed to cure any disease – coughs, colds, bumps, bruises, sores on the ass, and pimples on the penis.
My response:
Joel: Thanks! ;) Making fun of homeopaths is an extremely satisfying way to start my day.
My comment: Homeopathy is snake oil for the 21st century.
Hmmmmmm… there’s a “Suggest a Poll” link…*click*
iiiiiiinteresting….
So what do you want? A third arm? A second brain? An infinite capacity for alcohol?
Except, perhaps, for the later, there could be a plentiful supply of slightly used parts should the “advice” favoured by these quacks be widely followed. However, I’d recommend against adding a brain from someone stupid enough to think diluted-out-of-existence anything is an effective preventative or cure.
I did my part with some poorly done wordplay.
“You people are diluted if you think the reality-based world will aqueous to your absurd notions. Water you lake it or not, the body of evidence grants zero validity to your claims. Double blind studies are your friends. Use them to eliminate your b(ice).”
My friends couldn’t vote (we’re all using the same computer) but at least they got to comment. Any bets on how long before comments are closed?
I’ve noticed recently that many people confuse homeopathy with natural medicine (another pile of crap imho) for some reason. that could be the reason why this poll is as bad as it is.
Looks like they added a snarky “Thank you to all the skeptics” response after the poll. Looks like the criticism was getting to them. A poll is only valid if your own members are the only voters. Now, if they could only find some already brainwashed and easily suggestible to the placebo effect patients for a study, they might have something.
I think I’ll go drink some homeopathic whiskey. One drop in a gallon of water. It’s cheap! Great way to beat the economic crisis.
I also love the “Yes, but won’t be allowed to!” answer – They pre-include their wining in anticipation of being shot down.
Often available with the common adjuvants known as “lettuce” and “tomato”. (and if Jenny McCarthy doesn’t see you you can add trace amounts of mayo).
And now that I click the link….I see that it’s a homeopathy site….no wonder the numbers were skewed (at first).
A NYTimes article today cites homeopathy use among possible reasons for the high mortality of flu victims in Mexico. See http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/01/health/01oaxaca.html?hp
Homeopathic whisky:
Take a drop of homeopathic remedy. Add it to a shot of whisky. I recommend 18 year MacAllan if you’ve got the $145 for a bottle. Less than most medicine, eh? By diluting your drop in the whisky, you are actually potentiating the remedy. Drink lots of it if you are really sick.
#79
Don’t worry, they’ll endeavor to make us better people.
And natural medicine is a misnomer as well.
If it works it is medicine. If it doesn’t it’s not. Calling it natural doesn’t change any of that.
That’s why I hate the term “Alternative Medicine”. There is no alternative medicine, its either medicine and has a demonstrateable efficacy or its not.
But I’m a nit picking asshole.
@Charlie Foxtrot, just a bit snarky? I’d say! They pretty much point out that we’re helping them just by showing up to criticize them, plus it reinforces their claims that they are being persecuted for trying to “help people” so our attempts to show that many, many people don’t think homopathy’s any better for you than toilet water allow them to just scream “conspiracy!” and the true believers lap it up.
perhaps we need to rethink what polls we crash, if these quacks are making money off of them. I dunno much about how that works? do they get a buck for every 10 hits or something?
Did you notice the message after voting in this poll?:
“Thank you to all the skeptics for coming to our website, reading the articles and voting in our poll. The links of http://www.Hpathy.com that you post on your websites and the traffic that you bring, all help us increase our back-links, search engine positions and advertisement revenue.”
So, why are you helping these people?
I have to ask, does McCarthy have a problem with mayo too?
Is she claiming it causes autism as well?
Well, at least it has the placebo effect. Which is pretty powerful in some areas, like pain.
Not so good against viruses though…
I initially read this as “bacon is more better,” which would have been just as cool*.
*not that I’m advocating cool bacon. I prefer it warm**.
**of course I’m not against cool bacon, either. I mean, there’s the whole bloody mary thing to consider***.
***and open faced club sandwiches****.
****mmmmmmmmmmmm….
Re @15:
Blockquote>Responding to #10, it was either placebo or you just reverting to the mean. The quality of service (or rather, lack of it) offered by doctors has no bearing on wether homeopathy works. It doesn’t.
I think you misunderstood, he said, “So I think the quality of service offered by the real doctors, … is a major factor in why the alternative trends retain their appeal.” [emphasis added]
He is not saying that the treatment is effective, just that people find it appealing. This is pretty much the conclusion Richard Dawkins came to in one of his recent films about homeopathy. That people like it because the “doctors” give them so much more attention than mainstream doctors and not so much that it really cures anything other than by placebo effect.
Totally off topic but this is just too stupid to not pass along.
Ray “I wouldn’t know a fact if it blackened my eye” Comfort has this to say about the swine flu
How much fail can one person fit in their life?
I just registered for the online free course and was e-mailed this:
Unfortunately, I skimmed through the first three chapters only to collide with the “only 3 chapters in a day” restriction. So I haven’t seen the exam yet, which is what I was really aiming for. I presume it’s a load of giggles. And I’m so looking forward to that “beautiful certificate” for Iam Idiot…
here’s how 91 was supposed to be formatted:
Re Cronan @15:
I think you misunderstood, he said, “So I think the quality of service offered by the real doctors, … is a major factor in why the alternative trends retain their appeal.” [emphasis added]
He is not saying that the treatment is effective, just that people find it appealing. This is pretty much the conclusion Richard Dawkins came to in one of his recent films about homeopathy. That people like it because the “doctors” give them so much more attention than mainstream doctors and not so much that it really cures anything other than by placebo effect.
I’m finally getting a chance to test the bacon remedy this weekend. First we’ll hit First Friday in Old Town Philadelphia. I will oversee the operations from a brewpub or at least somewhere I can get microbrews*. My operatives will check out the art. I will go beyond “the feeling” I get that usually stops me from getting (much of) a hangover. Then, in the morning, bacon-like substance for breakfast (I actually favor sausage links – bangers essentially – which are kind of like a bacon preparation, sort of).
*with lots of that Humulus lupulus (family Cannabinaceae, don’t cha know).
And there are people out there who think that less education is what the world needs.
Awesome.
The site won’t load for me, for some reason. Is it being overwhelmed by Pharynguloid hordes or something?
Anyone else having this problem?
#92
I’m not sure what he’s trying to say. Is he saying that evolutionists are evil because they support the theory of mutations?
If so, does that mean if evolutionists didn’t exist, neither would mutations?
CP24 (local credulous news station) had their in house douchebag homeopath giving naturalistic advice on how to deal with swine flu. Apparently wash your hands and cover your mouth when you cough isn’t natural enough for the people in the ‘don’t even suspect nothin’ community.
My comment, verbatim (they’re obviously onto us – there’s a paragraph on the post-poll page which contains one or two things to which I took great exception):
—
From the website: “We respect your skepticism and we will continue our effort to enlighten you and bring you out of your ignorance. This is no battle. It is our duty to help you become better human beings!”
Don’t make me laugh. You don’t respect our skepticism at all – you call it “ignorance” in the very same fucking sentence and, two sentences later, imply that you are “better human beings” than us, with your enlightened knowledge. Such smug, smarmy & superior arrogance will not win you any “converts”. And I thought preachy evangelicals were fucking annoying!
And as to that fourth option on the poll: “Yes but we won’t be allowed to!” Laughable, pitiful & paranoid. “You” aren’t “allowed to” help with a flu pandemic for the same reason shamans don’t perform brain surgery – you’re not qualified and what you do has no more effect than wishful thinking and could actually harm people if they’re denying themselves effective treatment in favour of this pseudo-medicine. But please, feel free to infect yourselves with swine flu, test your remedies and publish your findings. I’ll be back when a homeopath wins a Nobel for curing something. Anything.
—
ahh, the site is Indian. Land of woo and counterfeit meds.
Looks like Dr. Manish Bhatia’s regular readers are mostly Indian woosters as well.
Naturally (pun intended!). In the tradition of all tasty snake oil, through all time … But this stuff probably doesn’t even have the old-time advantage of alcoholic beverages (besides the obvious intoxicating effects): Being free of enteric pathogens!
No what he’s doing is being a total fucking moron about evolution (shocker).
He is thinking that because the mutation of the virus isn’t beneficial for humans that it shows that mutations are deadly and therefor evolution is not true.
Totally ignoring that the mutation is benificial for the virus.
I still snicker at the homeopathy jokes here. Is it at all possible that the whole of homeopathy is just one big set-up? I mean, these guys just walk right into these jokes.
here is the last paragraphs of an article on the saint paul KSTP.com website about homeopathy:
“5 EYEWITNESS NEWS’ medical expert Dr. Shannon Klingman says up to 30 percent of homeopathic success stories coming from alternative medicine are more of a placebo effect—people simply convincing themselves they feel better, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
However, Klingman noted she doesn’t buy a lot of what alternative medicine is promoting.”
not bad. not bad. but i wish the Dr. had said homeopathy does not work. period.
Tim, what else should we do? Those quacks win either way, only in the long term rationality will prevail. If we vote and comment they get traffic, but at least the poll & comments reflect reality. Otherwise it’s the other way round. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
If they sell their “remedies” to the sick, they’re fucked up criminals either way. What else did you expect from them?
#103
Ah, I see now. thanks. I think I need some practice on thinking like a moron.
no offense intended.
Because they don’t understand homeopathy, the immune system, and the scientific method.
SciBorg comments use the rel=”nofollow” attribute on hyperlinks, which means search engines do not follow (or at least do not count) the hyperlink. The only link in Pee Zed’s article which would be followed is Pee Zed’s own in the article.
In other words, they are lying. To be expected. They are quacks. Liars.
“No” is already at 63.6%. Keep going!
It’s amusing that they put in a polling option for conspiracy theorists; ie, “Yes, but won’t be allowed to!”.
None taken.
I’m proud of my moron thinking abilities.
um
wait
The links that you post on your websites and the traffic that you bring, all help us increase our back links, search engine positions and advertisement revenue.
I don’t think they realize this is all coming from a *single* website, which will do zip for their search engine positioning…
mandrellian@#100:
–“You” aren’t “allowed to” help with a flu pandemic for the same reason shamans don’t perform brain surgery–
Brilliant! I’m still laughing at that one.
Oh, and the orginal reason I was going to post was to say, Aaaaaahhhhhhhh! What the hell, people! It’s water; water with the memory of molecules it encountered in the past before it got agitated to the nth degree. Stop and think about that, please. If you Neo-New Age tossers what to heal yourselves with Kool Aid, be my guest. Just do the rest of the species a favour and sequester yourselves on an island somewhere where your disease-ridden bodies can’t infect the rest of us
speaking of polls to crash theres one over at http://pandasthumb.org/
Will PZ crash this poll?
Yes
No
Maybe
I think we all know the answer to that one.
Cannabinaceae:
The Dead are playing Philly this weekend, so if you were looking for something else from that Family the old Spectrum would be a good place. To look.
(p.s. it’s my impression that botanists use Cannabaceae mostly)
Apparently I’m an ignorant, indecent human being for not believing in magic.
“We respect your skepticism and we will continue our effort to enlighten you and bring you out of your ignorance. This is no battle. It is our duty to help you become better human beings! Thank you once again!”
Ah, I’m soooo thirsty.
My comment on the poll:
A not very nice part of me thinks it will help…
…us be rid of a few more idiots who believe in homeopathy.
Here’s what I wrote:
“NO.
I cannot believe that anyone who has studied homeopathy can take it seriously: it requires tremendous self-delusion and/or hopes of making lots of money at the expense of those who haven’t studied its premises.”
oh, and I’m pretty sure ads don’t generate revenue unless you actually click on them.
Did it thank anyone else? It gave me a little blurb about how happy it was skeptics were visiting the site. Then it tried to get me to sign up for a course to convert me. :|
Give me water or give me death!
I just noticed something made of win…
On the site, near the bottom, the advert I got? The death test!
My comment was something to the effect that they believe in homeopathy because they’re full of the homeopathic molecular memory of crap retained by the water they’ve been swilling.
As for preferring natural remedies, supernatural remedies don’t exist; if it’s a remedy, I’d prefer the synthetic option because there’s no telling how much, if any, remedy is contained in your bottled plant substance.
Well, according to homeopathic principles, the more we vote ‘yes’, the more it means ‘no’, doesn’t it?
Offer a comment about what and why you voted. If enough people mention the dishonest and shameful actions of offering homeopathy as an “alternative” or “complementary” treatment for flu (or anything else), maybe someone will wonder what we’re all talking about and start checking….
Subversion from within!
To equal a, “pandemic,” wouldn’t a whole lot of people have to be, you know, dying? 331 cases WORLDWIDE does not even come close. 1 22-month-old illegal Mexican immigrant has died in America. Textbook–babies under 2 and the elderly die easily. Still does not make this anything important.
Current counts (1-May, 09:34 CDT (Zulu -5)):
Yes (27.4 %) 1568 votes
No (66.6 %) 3814 votes
Can’t say (0.9 %) 54 votes
Yes, but won’t be allowed to! (5.0 %) 289 votes
F.Jardim #10,
Was it cheaper than, say, beer?
#61:
In that case, can I interest you in a course of baconupuncture?
It must record the IP address because I can’t vote, and I’ve never been to the site. However, I work for a large corporation with a proxy. I’m sure one of the 9K people here has voted already.
I’d be curious to see their site’s referred hits stat right now.
blf @93–
You’ve got it wrong–upon successful completion of the course “you can buy a very beautiful certificate”. Surprised???
To equal a, “pandemic,” wouldn’t a whole lot of people have to be, you know, dying? 331 cases WORLDWIDE does not even come close. 1 22-month-old illegal Mexican immigrant has died in America. Textbook–babies under 2 and the elderly die easily. Still does not make this anything important.
Looks like the jig is up. When I tried to go vote at the poll I got a page instead warning that us crashing the poll is just upping their hits and ad revenue.
And also offering to allow me to take a free introductory homeopathy course.
If it was anything more than a text primer or, maybe, Flash primer, and I got to interact with a human being, I’d be tempted just so I could rip apart their claims and studies.
K
Nope. Actually all that it has to do is spread over a wide area and infect a lot of people, making them seriously ill.
When first introduced, Homeopathy was a great improvement over the practice of ‘heroic’ dosing with mercury. antimony, purgatives, etc. “Let the patent rest and let nature take its course. ” plus placebo effect.
@AlgaeGirl
However, I just can’t shake the habit of making and eating chicken soup when sick. It’s nutrients and fluids! Two important things to have when you’re sick! And even though I don’t have the flu (yet: I’m paranoid) I did make a big pot for my friends who are sick and just had a bowl for breakfast.
Actually, there are some good things from chicken soup. If I remember a story on NPR, it boils down to some basics: The steam has the humidifying aspect to help clear nasal passages. The heat increases blood circulation in the mouth and throat area, allowing more antibodies to get to the affected area, and help relieve some of the infection, etc. The liquid is good because people tend to become dehydrated when they have a cold or the flu.
In other words, minor, but actually measurable symptom relief.
Is it as good as an antiviral? No. Is there something magic about it being “chicken soup” rather than “beef barley”? No. Is it better than homeopathy? Youbetcha!
Wow…and I thought geeks were snarky. This is up on the results page:
What a bunch of tools.
Sometimes even astronomers can be funny and clever
/ducks thrown physics book
Check out the flyer he has posted there
bungton @70
I decided to take the free “course” too, and went through the whole registration bit and was welcomed, but the chapter links are not active…what have you found?
They don’t understand why we WANT them to have increased advertising revenue. Their revenue comes from the woo peddlers, so by making the woo peddlers pay them, we hurt the right people. And it’s not like the adds have an effect on the average pharangulite.
We have them on the run. They are now saying this:
Just showed the poll and general idea to one of my HS students… his response? “That’s just stupid.”
The redirect is exactly the kind I’d expect from a creationist site. What a bunch of sneering nah nah nah nah poo poo. Would ANYONE with a legit idea stoop to this kind of shit?
No
For a real hoot, check out the books in the ‘Mall’ on that site. Urine Therapy?
I can’t wait to read ‘The Trials of Homeopathy’ and be converted into believing water and sugar pills can cure all ailments…probably will have to look under fiction to find it.
K @ 134
“A 23-month-old boy from Mexico City became the first person to die of swine flu in the United States after being airlifted two weeks ago to a Houston hospital from the border town of Brownsville, where he had been visiting relatives, officials said.” NY Times, April 29. So the child was neither illegal nor by definition an immigrant.
Not true. Evidence is pointing otherwise for “swine flu” and the 1918 pandemic had more of a “W” pattern.
Back before I was even an atheist, my mother was into woo medicine. Partly in order to be able to defend myself and protect her from unscrupulous practitioners, I took a correspondence degree in naturopathy and actually managed to graduate, despite my insistence on “does it work”. Therefore, I’m a little more able to strike from the “inside” than most skeptics.
I posted the following to their forum:
I have a degree in naturopathy, but I can’t agree with or recommend homeopathy. There is no proven or even plausible mechanism for it to work, and no properly conducted study has ever shown effectiveness for it. As a natural health professional, I prefer to confine myself to treatments that work better than placebos. My responsibility to my clients requires that I give them the most effective natural treatments, not “maybe” methods.
Of course, I don’t have “clients” in the true professional sense of the word; most of the people who consult me informally get my stern talk about placebos, things that are shown to work and not work, and how they harm themselves and others by delaying effective treatment. And they get their noses pointed to a mainstream physician, not a health food store.
Sastra: there’s a mistaken belief that … there’s some kind of consumer protection working for them, either the government or the medical profession.
Not so sure about that, Sastra. The last time the government tried to regulate faith-based medicine, there was a hue and cry over the government and corrupt corporations controlling people’s ability to lead healthy lives. Remember the ad where a SWAT team arrests Mel Gibson in his pajamas for having vitamins in his pantry? Still, it would be interesting to see if people think this stuff is regulated.
link to Gibson’s ad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV2olDA0w8U
And any desire to see regulation would evaporate as soon as they realized any decent scheme would ban their favorite placebos. And, by Cthulhu’s tentacles, I’d at least like to see government regulate the market so that the outside of the bottle matches the inside.
Sandi:Evidently homeopathy and other “alternative” treatments are very popular and people tend not to seek actual medical care until things are very serious indeed. This means that the people showing up in hospitals are much farther along and harder to treat.
And then when people die at the hospital, it’s just more proof that medicine does not work.
.
Doctors have their own “folk wisdom,” too. They prescribe off-label without rigorous FDA studies. Which at least shows they are not completely driven by medical company directives and are willing to see what works. I also find it really insulting that alternative medicine people think doctors would rather swear allegiance to a corrupt system than save the lives of their patients. When a homeopath works in a hospital for 60 hours a week dealing with life-threatening conditions all night long, they will be in a better position to judge medicine.
I just now finished my delicious breakfast of bacon and eggs, and I’m feeling peachy-keen.
It works!
Mu: They don’t understand why we WANT them to have increased advertising revenue. Their revenue comes from the woo peddlers, so by making the woo peddlers pay them, we hurt the right people.
Right. And whether their stupid homeopathic site does better than another stupid homeopathic site makes no difference to me.
Incidentally, skeptics are well represented in a google search of “homeopathy.” #5 and #7. Not bad.
it told me i’ve already voted (I hadn’t) so I’d imagine they’re not letting anyone referred from here vote.
not that it matters, just a head’s up.
Too late to contribute well to this thread, and haven’t read all comments.
But, looking at commentary in various forums of the uninformed,
HOMEOPATHIC is used to label UNDILUTED HERBAL treatments as often as it is used for dilutions. HOMEOPATHIC has become just a marketing label for any number of alt meds, even some that have actual active agents in reasonable doses.
HOMEOPATHIC is steadily morphing to mean “natural, non-invasive, friendly” as well as “a way to beat the ‘system'”.
My contribution, and of course a ‘No’ vote:
Oh, you crazy whacky water weasels, flogging your woo.
It only helps to empty the gullible’s wallets.
http://quackwatch.com
http://quackcast.com
http://sciencebasedmedicine.org
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/
http://scienceblogs.com/whitecoatunderground/
The NIH has a Complementary and Alternative research center. Buried within its long ball-massaging blowjob to homeopathy is this:
-Captain Obvious
This is not even true with most of the liquid preparations as the ethanol percentage is too high.
That’s to keep the potency of the alcohol from being increased by the succussions(whatever) and dilution. So the alcohol is undiluted and the water is diluted with more water. Glad I could clear up this important bit of science for you.
K @ 128/134:
No. Pandemic means an epidemic which is worldwide (oe at least geographically widespread). There could be many deaths, but it needn’t be from the virus. Any excess (more than the norm) deaths could be from causes such as malfunctioning (overwhelmed) medical and other services, including (e.g.) food delivery and shopkeeping.
The issue is not the lethality (or lack thereof) of A(H1N1). Instead, it’s that this flu virus is novel (so few humans are immune), and is easily transmitted from one person to another. That’s why (in part) WHO has raised its alert level to 5 (out of a possible 6).
Also, to the best of my knowledge, the 23-month-old child who died in Texas was not an illegal immigrant. He(?) was both in Texas and, as I understand it, has never been to Mexico.
They won’t let me vote either. Says I already did, but I didn’t.
Over 70% No at this post. What fun!
I cannot help but laugh that you have so many people who are lividly antagonistic to homeopathy…and yet, no one (!) acknowledges that the Cochrane Library notes that the use of homeopathic Oscillococcinum 200C has had “PROMISING” results in the treatment (not prevention) of the flu.
Vickers AJ, Smith C, Homoeopathic Oscillococcinum for preventing and treating influenza and influenza-like syndromes (Cochrane Review) The Cochrane Library, Issue 4, 2005.
I also find it very interesting that the H1N1 swine flu virus has been found to be almost 100% resistant to TAMIFLU…and yet, you skeptics and the media are totally ignoring this fact. Hmmm.
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/
Had a nasssty stye in my eye, and prior to having my doc look at it and get me some real medicine I went to the local CVS to see if there was something OTC I could use in the mean time to take the edge off. I found some homeopathic bloody thing right there on the shelf next to the CVS brand “Stye away” which was glycerin and other inert stuff. Kinda soothing, but that’s about it. The ingredients for the homeopathic thing were exactly the same – with some woo-woo explanatory prose regarding the lotion’s mystical, magical, wholesome, ancient, yippidie doo dah, healing powers… The CVS brand was $3.95. The woo-woo brand was $12.95.
Guess which one I bought?
Very amusing… being called a skeptic like its a bad thing. While there, I tried to take a look at their older, just as stupid polls but once found out as a skeptic I was denied access.
@Dana Uhllman:
Look at that Cochrane Review with a bit more detail:
“Authors’ conclusions
Though promising, the data were not strong enough to make a general recommendation to use Oscillococcinum for first-line treatment of influenza and influenza-like syndromes. Further research is warranted but the required sample sizes are large. Current evidence does not support a preventative effect of Oscillococcinum-like homeopathic medicines in influenza and influenza-like syndromes.”
Also, read that CDC link again. Its sensitive to Tamiflu.
Do you object to homeopathy on theoretical grounds or have you tried it?
From http://www.biomedexperts.com/Abstract.bme/14973976/Homoeopathic_Oscillococcinum_for_preventing_and_treating_influenza_and_influenza-like_syndromes:
“The rationale for its use in influenza comes from the homoeopathic principle of ‘let like be cured by like’. The medicine is manufactured from wild duck heart and liver, which are said to be reservoirs for influenza viruses.”
Where are the scientific studies that support the assertion that wild duck hearts and livers are indeed reservoirs for influenza viruses? Which influenza viruses? Where are the double-blind studies supporting the contention that the product Oscillococcinum is effective in treating flu symptoms?
Regarding your CDC link–it’s clearly stated that “The viruses from all seven cases are closely related genetically and contain a unique combination of gene segments that have not been reported in the United States or elsewhere. Viruses from 6 cases are all resistant to amantadine and rimantidine and sensitive to zanamivir and oseltamivir, and sensitivity testing is underway for the remaining virus.”
Oseltamivir is Tamiflu, by the way.
Are you stupid, or just a pathological liar?
On scientific grounds in the fact that it has been shown to have no efficacy past a placebo effect.
Trying it means shit
The plural of anecdote is not data.
There is no reason is should work and countless studies showing that it indeed does not.
I believe that wearing a tin foil hat will prevent brain cancer. Do you object to this on theoretical grounds or have you tried it?
And be careful how you answer, because I don’t have brain cancer.
Depends on the bread. If it’s bread that you can buy in North America or the UK, you’re probably right… B-)
Scroll to the bottom, and you’ll find the poll. It’s still there.
Marcus Ranum @156
That is word salad.
*smacks David*
Of course, sadly, you’re right.
I bet it was sarcasm instead… :-)
Oh there are good bakeries here, they’re just really hard to find if you aren’t in a big city.
The link is the weekly report on seasonal flu as-of c.18th April. That predates the identification of the new strain on 24th April. So the A(H1N1) mentioned is not the swine flu.
See http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/antiviral.htm for information on antivirals and swine flu:
You are the stupid dork who is both ignoring reality and proposing a course of action which would increase the death rate should there be a pandemic. Fuck off, evil areshole.
Hi PZ and all,
When I saw the paragraph “Thank you to all the skeptics…” on the homeopathy site, I think I know what to do now. Instead of clicking directly from PZ’s site, I copied and pasted the hpathy.com link into a new tab. This, I think, obliterates the “referral site” data that the various “poll” sites get when clicking from PZ’s site. Maybe some geek can correct me if I am wrong.
Could have been; should have asked the question if it was sarcasm. No bets though, as my little brain is still working on it…
understatement of the century. I think the nearest bakery is 1 1/2 hours away, in Bismarck :-p
Nods his head as he munches on some French bread bought in a small(-ish) coastal village.
Richard Knapp @ #164:
There’s an AIDS epidemic in Africa, and many people there have gotten it into their heads that raping a small child will cure AIDS. Do you object to this on theoretical grounds or have you tried it?
Some people think there’s a hidden platform in King’s Cross Station in London with a train that leads to a magical school for young wizards, and that this platform (9 3/4) can be found by walking into the wall between platforms 9 and 10. Do you object to this on theoretical grounds or have you tried it?
Do you object to the idea that repeatedly whacking oneself upside the head with a frozen sea bass will grant the ability to breathe underwater on theoretical grounds or have you tried it?
Do you object to the idea that drinking the blood of a unicorn grants immortality on theoretical grounds or have you tried it?
Do you object to the idea that eating large amounts of nuclear waste cures all illness on theoretical grounds or have you tried it?
I think this thread would be a lot more entertaining if you set your own hair on fire. Do you object to this on theoretical grounds or have you tried it?
Richard Knapp @ #164:
There’s an AIDS epidemic in Africa, and many people there have gotten it into their heads that raping a small child will cure AIDS. Do you object to this on theoretical grounds or have you tried it?
Some people think there’s a hidden platform in King’s Cross Station in London with a train that leads to a magical school for young wizards, and that this platform (9 3/4) can be found by walking into the wall between platforms 9 and 10. Do you object to this on theoretical grounds or have you tried it?
Do you object to the idea that repeatedly whacking oneself upside the head with a frozen sea bass will grant the ability to breathe underwater on theoretical grounds or have you tried it?
Do you object to the idea that drinking the blood of a unicorn grants immortality on theoretical grounds or have you tried it?
Do you object to the idea that eating large amounts of nuclear waste cures all illness on theoretical grounds or have you tried it?
I think this thread would be a lot more entertaining if you set your own hair on fire. Do you object to this on theoretical grounds or have you tried it?
I just clicked through and didn’t have any problem responding to the poll though I was a little appalled by their snarky comments to skeptics. Here’s my comment:
“I voted no because homeopathy is not capable of treating, curing or preventing a viral infection. To imply otherwise is dangerous to people’s health and to the ability of our population to respond to pandemics.
Though your message states that if I take your elementary course I will probably become a convert, that is clearly untrue. I rely on science and research to guide my health care decisions and until there is ample evidence that homeopathy has anything other than a placebo effect I will not be using it to treat any health problems I have.”
Here is my comment to the quacks. ‘Me engrish are teh bads’, but I think they can understand it:
“””
Please, stop selling homeopathy. You may have the best of the intentions, but you are playing with other peoples lives. It is a great responsibility to provide medical help, and that’s why real medicinal drugs are tested so intensively. Giving water and sugar to people with the H1N1 will not help, they need real medicine. Again, *please* stop.
“””
Dana Ullman, I thought you were busy getting intellectually spanked at the Science-Based Medicine blog? Are you branching out? If so, you probably chose poorly. People here seem to like science, evidence, and logic.
Thanks PZ, I had a lot of fun with that. The great Homer Simpson once said “Smashing things up is fun”:
http://www.snpp.com/episodes/1F03.html
“correcting” polls like this is actually a pretty civilised and constructive way of smashing things up.
@17
Way OT but fascinating. If a childrens’ book can do this to adults… It shows you how religions exert the power they do…
A few days ago there was a programme on TV in the UK questioning various kinds of medicine. They concluded there was no evidence for homeopathy. There was an interview with a homeopath who claimed that:
“Science hasn’t caught up with homeopathy yet.”
Er, no, it’s the other way round.
L O L , Gotcha…………another 1/2 wit pissed off.
Good work fellow pharyngulados. : )
For those of us who don’t get sick a lot, you might assume that a few of us might confuse homeopathy with naturopathy. This is what I did before I looked up the exact definition of homeopathy. Sure, I think that eating oranges and drinking tea might help fight the flu. I don’t know about this dilution thing though.
So if you had asked me 10 minutes ago whether homeopathy might help flu victims, I might’ve said yes.
Naturopathy isn’t much better in some respects.
Poll utterly stomped.
Poll utterly stomped. We are a highly organized team of nigglers.
By the time I got to the poll, there was a gloating message for those who vote no, basically saying hello to all the skeptics and pointing out that we’re bumping their ad revenue. (Briefly, I guess.)
I love how they assume that none of us have experienced homeopathy. Gosh, we don’t believe, so obviously we must never have tried it. Sigh. When I was a kid, my mother subjected me to a number of faddish medical things that she felt tied in with her religious belief in the “laying on of hands”. As a result, I’ve been a guinea pig for homeopathy, reiki, iridology, body cleanses, chiropractry, just to name a few. (The chiropractry I’m divided on. I’ve had a few chiropracters that worked hand in hand with my physicians and physical therapists and didn’t do the whacky c-spine yanky thing. And I’ve had some quacks. These days, I’d rather not chance getting one of the many many awful chiros, and now just go with my doc and PT.)
“WHY DO PEOPLE STILL BELIEVE IN THIS HOMEOPATHY CRAP?”
THAT is a very good question!
Here’s my particular answer:
Because people LOVE to think that they can arrive at answers with a minimum of thought or effort…just like in the movies…or in religion. Either way, the media has been very quick to exploit it – much MUCH quicker than rational people like most scientists can.
People are being systematically indoctrinated towards the idea that if it isn’t cut-and-dried and “absolute”, it cannot be “right”. As if a worldview MUST ABSOLUTELY BE INFORMED BY COMPLETE INFORMATION if it is ever to be considered “correct”.
And if it isn’t “right” because it doesn’t correspond to whatever preconceptions, then by golly, it MUST be “wrong”: these are the folks who become suspicious of it, and declare far and wide, that it must not be “true”…
AFTER people have been thus thoroughly indoctrinated, suitably concerned people and a fair bunch of scientists wonder what the hell is going on. Then a pathetic few of them (like PZ) determine to speak out and say so in lots of articles on the web and in print, where the vast majority never gives a damn to apply their attention, except whenever it happens to impinge on their particular belief system.
Yet contrary views will inevitably draw flies. The subject they consider their very own is under attack. Their fallacy must be defended.
They WHINE and MOAN and GROAN over it.
So along come the assholes who tell everyone the “GOOD NEWS”, as if they actually HAVE any. You know what it is?
Basically it is this: UNLESS you accept the Absolute into your heart, you can’t ever actually KNOW anything. NOTHING WHATSOEVER AT ALL. And, once having passed under the magic wand influence of ABSOLUTE THINKING, you just might believe any bullshit that anybody ever tells you…as long as there is more money in it.
People who really care know, don’t they? Even the most wealthy. In fact the most wealthy often make it a special point that if they are wealthy, it must be so because it equates with competence in logical reasoning. They really know what it’s all about.
In the meantime, innocent people are hoodwinked and KILLED by this SCAM.
I’ll see President Obama addressing this issue in due course, and in suitably manageable bite-sized chunks. Never think for a moment he won’t. Just watch. (In politics, timing often IS everything).
Heh heh heh – fear us skeptics :)
Their snark-mongering when we hit the No button is so funny. Look at them, trying to be witty, the dears. *pats them*
quoth comment #10:
So you treated your whatever-it-was with vodka?
I think, being the stingy bastard that I am, that I would have dropped by the liquor store to do some comparison shopping first.
why
— It’s respectable woo. They’re very careful not to appear nuttier than they need to. There’s a “Royal London Homeopathic Hospital,” for Christ’s sake. I know more than one credentialed, publishing scientist who has a soft spot for homeopathy.
— Lotsa people love the idea that they can choose among multiple doctrines/practices of health care. The area where I live in Seattle is lousy with quackery, and it’s as secular and educated as any place in the world.
Do you object to homeopathy on theoretical grounds or have you tried it?
Not that it constitutes *evidence*, but yes I tried it. Once I bought a homeopathic cold remedy, because at the time I didn’t know what the word meant. I thought it would do what cold remedies usually do, that is, provide some relief from the symptoms. Needless to say, the pills didn’t do a damn thing. Now I know why.
#102- “Naturally (pun intended!). In the tradition of all tasty snake oil, through all time … But this stuff probably doesn’t even have the old-time advantage of alcoholic beverages (besides the obvious intoxicating effects): Being free of enteric pathogens!”
VITAMEATAVEGIMIN!!111!!!!eleven!!
*burp*
I won’t be convinced that homeopathy works until a double blind randomized control trial in cattle is performed.
Unnecessary, since every properly done study shows it to be no more effective than any other placebo. By the definition of homeopathic “medicine” it is in fact just a placebo. Your insistence on personal trials though, shows a lack of understanding on the placebo effect and why it must be accounted for in a proper medical trial.
Why don’t you try to answer the following questions Robert…
1)Homeopathy assumes that if you expose someone to an agent that produces the same symptoms, that it will cure their condition. Why would this be true, and can you cite credible evidence to support it?
2) Homeopathy then assumes that if you dilute the solution it then becomes more potent, especially when it gets diluted to the point that there is almost no chance of a single molecule of the “cure” remaining. How do you explain this, and can you cite other chemicals that also produce a stronger effect even when diluted to the point where they don’t exist anymore in the solution?
3) Can you explain why water (or lactose, etc.) retains the “memory” of the intended “medicine”, but not from all of the other substances that it encountered?
4) Can you describe any credible way to distinguish between a homeopathic treatment, and a placebo treatment that are both using the same base ingredient?
—Quacks are the greatest liars in the world, except their patients. (attributed to Benjamin Franklin)
WHO and UNICEF attended Govt of India Workshop on Homeopathy in 2007.
” The Department of AYUSH, Ministry of Health and Family Welfare, Government of India has decided to launch a National Campaign on Homoeopathy in Mother and Child Care to create greater awareness among Policy makers, Health Providers and the Common Man and create avenues for coordination on promotion of Homoeopathy in Mother and Child Care. (Year 2007)
(http://indianmedicine.nic.in/homeopathy-campaign.asp)
The Government of India has over the years taken a number of initiatives to improve the health status of women and children. In order to effectively improve the health status of women and children and fulfill the unmet need for Family Welfare services in the country, especially the poor and under served by reducing infant, child and maternal mortality and morbidity, Government of India during 1997-98 launched the Reproductive and Child Health (RCH) Programme.
The National Health Policy of India envisages the use of the AYUSH systems of medicine in the provision of adequate health care under the overarching umbrella of the national health framework. The national campaign on Homoeopathy for Mother and Child Care is one of these campaigns.
There is limited awareness among policy makers and modern medicine health professionals about the potential which Homoeopathy has for improving the health status of Women and Children. The proposed national campaign aims at sensitizing policy makers and modern medicine health professionals about the strengths of Homoeopathy in mother and child health care.
Homoeopathy is tailor made for individualized treatment. Homoeopathic medicines stimulate the body’s own defense system and allow the body to heal itself. Such medicines are very safe, gentle and do not have toxic side effects. This system which was first introduced in Germany and came to India in the early nineteenth century has taken root in the country and has gained mass acceptance as well as official recognition.
STRENGTHS OF HOMOEOPATHY IN MOTHER AND CHILD CARE:-
Highly beneficial for many diseases related to women and children.
Medicines can be safely administered for various ailments throughout pregnancy without any adverse reaction.
Can be used during childbirth to contain problems associated with labor.
Effective for post delivery and lactational complaints.
The sweet pills are palatable and thus, child friendly.
Method of administration of medicine is very simple.
STRATEGY FOR NATIONAL CAMPAIGN
The National Campaign would involve:
Three Tier Workshop at National, State and District levels
The National Workshop would be held on November 5 and 6, 2007 at New Delhi.
Theme of Workshop: Homoeopathy for Healthy Mother and Happy Child
CORE GROUP
Chief Patrons
Hon’ble Union Minister of Health and Family Welfare
Hon’ble Minister of State and Family Welfare.
Participants:
Participation in the Workshop would be through invitation, only. 300 participants would be invited for the National Workshop from:
1. Department of AYUSH
2. Related Ministries and Departments of Govt. of India (Health and Family Welfare, Women and Child Development, Panchayati Raj, Rural Development, Telecom etc.),
3. Public Accounts Committee and Parliamentary Standing Committee on H andFW
4. Planning Commission of India
5. Director General Health Services of India
6. National Institute of Health and Family Welfare
7. WHO and UNICEF
8. Doordarshan and A.I.R
Procedural techniques:
The workshop would be primarily based on practical application of Homoeopathic principles. A two-day intensive workshop on the model program will be conducted. The Primary resource persons would further identify participants who can be involved in conducting state and district level workshops, utilizing continuation of learning mechanism.
This model program would involve lectures and presentations, group discussions, break away sessions for different participants, exhibitions, resolutions, etc.
Capacity Building:
Development and implementation activities throughout the workshop will be structured in such a way as to maximize the exposure of the Workshop participants to the strengths of Homoeopathy, with respect to Mother and Child health care and sensitize them for better policy and program coordination and implementation in order to integrate the use of Homoeopathy for better Mother and Child Care at all levels. The Workshop would assist the participants in acquisition of new skills and knowledge that will lend themselves to the future capacity to replicate this Workshop at State and District levels and become active participants in the development and evaluation of Mother and Child Health programs in India, through Homoeopathy.”
The site is from India. It’s a bit sad that now a days you tend to find more homeopathic practitioners than science-based medicine practitioners over here. It’s generally accepted to be efficacious without any questioning. I try to educate whenever i get a chance but find it difficult to change people’s perception.
Wow, this place is as full of shit as I’ve been told! Yup, more egghead atheists behind it all. Typical arrogant nerd prejudice against homeopathy and having never really bothered to look at the evidence for it. “Statistical evidence that religion leads to immorality”? Hah! Oh yeah, it’s a real intellectual and un-biased, God-hating bunch in here. Fuckhead commies!!! This is the place where all the angry, little men of the world hang out, now isn’t it?
@203, “Quack Doc”
And the duck came down with the secret woid…
Who says there is no truth in advertising among homeopaths?
Why, yes, brother. Sit yourself down. You’ll fit right in.
Of course homeopathy can help… it can help weed out those too stupid to go to a doctor when they’re sick.
@ Doc Quack:
If it walks like a poe, and Quacks like a poe…. its a poe.
@ Vijay Kishore:
Agreed, it’s very sad. Unfortunately there will always be those that push for quackery (even when they know better) because it’s cheaper. Many people in power can rationalize anything.
Quackster showing the egghead atheists how to make a rational well reasoned argument @ 203 :
The Doc Quack link@203 goes to a site which is a bit hard to read (TimeCube-ish, albeit not as extreme, not even reaching 0.2Tc’s?), but which also has a whiff of Poe. For instance, the Continental Quack Command (except for minor style adjustments, all as in the original):
There are other hints of Poe-try. For instance, “We try to heal sickly livestock with aggressive, experimental tactics – sometimes killing them. What we learn there, we apply to tending to pets and humans with much greater precision.” (Does that mean “they” aim to always kill the pets and humans?)
I’m pleased to say that the balance has now been tipped:
Yes (16.2 %) 1779 votes
No (80.0 %) 8782 votes
Can’t say (0.8 %) 83 votes
Yes, but won’t be allowed to! (3.0 %) 327 votes
With such a wide readership I’m sure Pharyngula’s influence was significant here! Nice work all ;o)
To Richard Knapp @ 164 – “Do you object to homeopathy on theoretical grounds or have you tried it?”
Both, but the theoretical objection came after the personal trial. Many years ago my (now ex) wife bought a homeopathic remedy kit which she used to “treat” our children’s various ailments. I was skeptical, but agreed to try it once when I had a cough that wouldn’t go away – after trying the Nyquil, Vicks, cough drops, and all the other usual stuff. Guess what? After taking the remedy, the cough went away! Seems like a classic case of “I tried it, and then I got better, so it must work.”
So I tried using it on other occasions with little or no effect, and I had to resort to conventional treatments, which usually worked. Over time it became absolutely clear that the remedy had no effect whatsoever.
I ultimately concluded that my cough happened to go away after taking the remedy, but that it would have gone away at the same time, whether I had taken it or not. And that’s where the fraud comes in – because the occasional positive results (which are pure coincidence) are reported and the overwhelming number of negative results are ignored.
Later, when I learned about the “theory” behind homeopathy, I fully understood why it didn’t work. Because it can’t.
So yes, Richard, I tried it, and it didn’t work.
WE’VE BEEN RUMBLED!
This poll has been attacked by trolls. If you are not one of them, we apologise for the message below.
Thank you to all the skeptics for coming to our website, reading the articles and voting in our poll. The links of http://www.Hpathy.com that you post on your websites and the traffic that you bring, all help us increase our back-links, search engine positions and advertisement revenue. Please keep coming back and while you are here do take our elementary course. It’s absolutely free! Once you have completed the course, you will still keep coming back to Hpathy.com but most likely as a convert.
And here is the link to the ‘Homeopathy treatment for swine flu’ article:
http://www.hpathy.com/diseases/Swine-flu-symptoms-treatment.asp
Just in case you need it!
Oh! And have you read ‘The Trials of Homeopathy’ by Michael Emmans Dean, published by KVC Verlag? Read it and you will find answers to many of your ‘Show me the proof’ and ‘Where is the research?’ queries! It contains a very objective review of all the research trials and metaanalysis ever done on homeopathy. Help yourself!
So now, voting “No” counts as being a troll? Heh. Ironic since they seem to be the trolls in regards to modern medicine, and life in general.
Random biological ejaculations from godless liberals?! I love it! Says it all about this Sodomite atheist commie blog. So, basically, you’re all a bunch of sheep fuckers and atheist cocksuckers!!! Makes no difference to you. Goats. Dogs. Cats. Horses. Men. You go through life with God-hating tears of the damned and pseudo-intellectual egos based in insecurity just like that Perez Hilton fairy boy. You’re all about attacking the gorgeous women of the world among your temper tantrums as misfits. Nothing but the snot-nosed, angry, little freaks and jackoffs you were back in high school. They all laughed at you back then and we laugh at you now! Ooooh, but now you’re egghead professors and naked bloggers with the power to put monsters like me in “The Dungeon”. What are you gonna do? S&M whip me, you commie creme puffs?! Dance around me in your panty hose? Why hell! Put on a wig, get some lipstick, hand me a bottle of Jack and I may just like it. So fuck you all!!! Goddamn neo-communist shitfuckers. Rot in hell!!!!
Now when you vote, they say, effectively, “Ha ha, we suckered you into giving our site more traffic, giving us more money and attention!” Oops.
@Trent:
That’s been up for a while now if you vote “No”. Of course no one here is likely to click on their ads, so meh.
@ Dr. Quack:
Try peddling your poe elsewhere, or at least try to make it more amusing. OK? Thanks.
Hey #218 Ztetic, lighten up a bit. This nutter is really much funnier than most of the Poe’s we get here. I actually L’ed O L at his latest effort, though not quite as much as I did at the “Young Ones” clip sombody referenced earlier in the thread.
I love it when a guy cries out: “Whip me, beat me, make me feel cheap and used!”
Sorry, Duck, but pharyngula may not be as appropriate a venue for your one-handed typing as this one, unless you can work out a way to incorporate some hot, inky Cephalopod action in with the rest of your fever-dream fantasy life. Not our particular taste in beak, either; the feathers are a nice touch, but on you they go better with tar, and a rail.
Commies? Where
I sir or madam have never sucked a cock.
Now you’ve gone to far, I would never fuck a cat.
My tears, Sir or Madam, do not hate god. They hate The Easter Bunny.
Lego my ego
Now you’re just being silly. Ego’s based in insecurity?
Humm strange that you even know who he is. You love him don’t you? Admit it.
I’ve never attacked a gorgeous woman, but I bet you’ve beaten a few.
I’ll have you know I was not little in highschool. I was 6 foot tall when I graduated.
They? We?
My head is not egged and I’m not a professor. I’m guessing neither are you.
NOW we’re talking
Oh you’re not a monster, you’re more of a gnat.
Tonight? We’ll I’m going to start off the night with a few beers and some baseball. Then i’m probably going to get some thai food and take the dogs for a walk. When i’m done i plan on finding a bar that’s showing the Manny Pacquiao and Ricky Hatton fight and consume a few Makers on the rocks getting sufficiently lubricated finally culminating in coming home and rolling around naked with the wife.
You Sir or Madam are NOT invited to the rolling around naked with my wife. The nerve of some people
Again you make so many assumptions. If I was to dance around you it would be in my Pig-Man constume.
And you claim you don’t like Perez Hilton.
I thought I told you YOU ARE NOT INVITED!!
Taking the lords name in vain. For shame.
neo-communists? I thought we were communists? And shit fuckers? Is that a proposition? Again. YOU ARE NOT INVITED!
Are you a Necromantix fan?
Who would have guessed.
Are you a Necromantix fan?
Perhaps Cradle of Filth?
@ John M:
The poe is not bothering me, just boring me.
I mean really…where is the creativity in just throwing out a bunch of insults? Where is the attempt to rationalize the irrational? Where is the wacky attempt to make an absurd argument? I can appreciate a good poe, but IMO a good poe puts some more effort into it.
Oh well, I guess at least Rev. BigDumbChimp is having some fun with it.
Google ad on the results page:
Pretty much says all that needs to be said, yes? But where have I heard that “one weekend a month” line before . . . ?
OK, poll is currently 80.2% NO – obviously even the pollsters don’t look at their own poll; seems strange they hadn’t closed it down yet or just altered the results.
If you now vote “no”, it appears to tell you that you’ve already voted in the poll. In my case, this is impossible, given that I’m on a computer whose owners neither read Pharyngula nor the homeopathy site in question.
I feel so sorry for each and every one of you. Snarky comment with the poll, you don’t read what you all have written, snarky is mild compared to the venom pouring out of this site. Pathetic homeopaths ? No really pathetic skeptics. May you never get really sick and have Western scientific medicine fail you. Blessed be
Blessed be what? Lessee if I can decode this… BB? That can only mean Betty Boop! And as Betty sez, “If you’re feeling wealthy, and want to feel healthy, now’s the time to buy Jippo!” It’s homeopathic, you can tell starting around 5:10 in.
May you never get sick and actually need real medicine because homeopathy will 100% fail you.
Blessed be the cheesemakers
I’m sorry sue be being as gullible as you have to be to believe homeopathy works, you are the one people should be feeling sorry for.
@Sue (#228):
OK then… Would you care to try and answer the questions I posted at #202 for Richard Knapp(he seems to have disappeared w/o defending his position), or are you just going to make a cowardly “drive-by” post too?
Please note, that if you want to defend your position here, that credible evidence and logic w/o resorting to fallacies will be expected. Not everyone is as gullible as believers in homeopathy after all.
bebutBlessed
bebut the cheesemakers?“What’s so special about the cheesemakers?” Is there molecular memory involved?
Maybe the Rev is lactose intolerant? ;)
Oh good grief, I voted and ended up commenting and … I think, having read what homeopathy has to offer, it’s even less reality-based than creationism.
There’s someone on there calling herself an MD and when I guessed she wasn’t, she said she would be except for ‘a bureaucratic mix up’ and so she called herself ‘Dr … MD’ … and then, without blinking, went on to say that NASA only use homeopathy, not any other form of medicine.
http://www.hpathy.com/poll/index.asp
I think the most compelling form of argument against both homeopathy and gods is that their advocates are so transparently dishonest. I don’t know or care whether this ‘doctor’ understands that she’s lying or not, but the ease with which she does … it’s really not much of a character reference for what she’s peddling.
Just found this
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25427280-5001021,00.html
THE parents of a baby girl suffering from eczema ignored the advice of doctors and persisted with homeopathic treatment for their daughter until she died from infection, a court has heard.
@Steve Jeffers:
NASA using homeopathic treatments!?!?!
Thanks for bringing up they are saying that, it’s hysterical! Here I thought NASA wants to make water from fuel cells for drinking and hygiene, silly me!
@spainguy:
Damn that pisses me off! It makes the NASA remark suddenly seem much less amusing. The parents probably won’t be charged with much, due to sympathy. In the USA there are several states that will excuse such a death of a child, if the parents were using prayer instead of homeopathy. I’m not sure how those states would treat a death by negligence because of using homeopathic treatments instead of prayer.
I don’t know a lot about the laws in Australia regarding such acts of negligence, hopefully they’ll be more sensible. Maybe the parents should be ordered to make PSA’s warning people about homeopathic treatments. What I’d really like to see would be the homeopathic pushers get dragged into court and put on trial for contributing to the death of a baby through fraud.
—Quacks are the greatest liars in the world, except their patients. (attributed to Benjamin Franklin)
@221
Oh that was rather fun! Been awhile since dipshit skeptics gave me such laughs. So, I’m too much manly duck for your dungeon, eh? Oh damn!
You know, there’s a bloodyfanged, cat woman, dog-hater, homeopath nemesis of mine who won’t like hearing this, Rev. Chimpfucker, but you keep your animals and that Darwinian monkey wife, and this duck will take the cat, indeed! Meeeeeooooow!!!!
As for my “poe”, just what the hell is that?! More poe-packing, candy ass, commie talk from this Twinkle Toes gaggle?! What?! You have some sort of liberal, elitist, codespeak for making shit sound pretty and dainty-tasty to you?! I see. Where it is most vile, call it “poe” with a little pinky lifted to your tea cup, eh? “Oh, dear me! The rabid duck has flown down and poed on us all again!”
Well, thank you for the fun, you atheist commie poe fuckers! I shall drop poe on you no more. Hanging out with this bunch is about as quick a knockdown as your Hatton. Hope you didn’t have money on him, Chimpfucker! I bid you farewell now and thank you for the cat. She’s a real screamer!
Oh, not to leave you shitheads without something to learn:
Re: NASA quacks. Yup.
Mother Teresa….quack.
QEII & family….quacks.
General Rommel…quack. Loved hpathy for his wounded troops.
Elements of SAS, SEAL’s, and other SF’s….many versed in homeopathy and fond of it, too. Various defense agencies and departments all well understand it these days — better even than most homeopaths — but it is mostly from assholes like you that they just call it by different, less taboo names, and move right along. Because it is real and does work, history will record you all as forgotten fools and half-assed, pseudo-scientific hacks. There is no point entertaining your long outdated arguments. No need for your pseudo-intelligent opinions and commentary on anything. And the greater fun is to just poe on you all, fuckheads! Cry about it all you like, but homeopathy WILL continue to grow and spread. Not a thing you can do to stop it, so you random ejaculates might want to spend your future energies on more productive endeavors.
Adios Twinkle Toes!
That’s twice you’ve said good-bye, fuckwit.
You do know the word usually indicates someone’s leaving, right? Or is truth just that hard for you, dipshit?
Now leave like you said you were going to, you fucking little pansy.
fixed
Yawn… just like I thought.
No attempts at logic or trying to justify the position, just a few cowardly drive-by attempts.
Even the poes are boring.
At least the web site was a little funny and took some effort. I’ll have to give a few points for that.
Perhaps I might find it more amusing if babies (and others) weren’t dying from this idiocy.
Precisely because there are plenty of gullible morons like you waiting to lap it up.
If I had decided to bring the irony meter with me, it would be decimated.
Homeopathy cures even when Conventional Allopathic Medicine (CAM) fails
Citation to the peer reviewed medical literature please.
No it does not.
And there is no “CAM”, there is medicine and there is woo. If something can show efficacy in treatment, it is medicine. If it can not then it is not medicine, it is woo or worse.
Homeopathy is not medicine. It is woo and therefore garbage.
Homeopathy: Micro Doses Mega Results
Wrong, delusion caused Placebo effect.
Let me see if I have homeopathy straight. If I have a skin rash then it’s similar to being exposed to poison ivy. So I take some poison ivy juice and dilute it with 100 times as much distilled water. I shake this dilution ten times (or thirty times, depending on which particular flavor of homeopathy I’m using) and then dilute the dilution again. I do this sixty times (remembering to do the 10 or 30 shakes for each dilution). The end result is a dilution so weak that if I take a 250 milliliter sample of the dilution it’s quite likely that not a single molecule of the original poison ivy juice is in my sample. Drinking the sample will cure my skin rash.
That’s not only stupid, it’s obviously stupid.