Here’s the VP debate exactly as I remember it: Palin was cheerful, folksy, always evading the questions and changing the subject she was prepped for, and completely devoid of substance. I especially liked the introductory ground rules, which the media have taken to heart: “Due to the historically low expectations for governor Palin, were she simply to do an adequate job tonight, and at no point cry, faint, run out of the building, or vomit, you should consider the debate a tie.”
The ‘folksiness’ grates, as Patricia Williams notes — it’s a misleading proxy for authenticity, and authenticity is too often regarded as a proxy for competence and knowledge. We need leadership that actually has some skill in managing, now that we’re deep in this crisis the last folksy boob we elected led us into, and instead we’re getting a beauty queen whose major qualification seems to be the ability to drop the ending “g” from words. That would be OK if she had some ability beyond that, but nope, it’s not there.
Another example of the contrast: Biden and Palin were asked to name the past vice presidents they admire most. Palin fumbled, mentioned first Geraldine Ferraro (who only ran for VP) because she “shattered part of that glass ceiling”, and then named Bush Sr., because she liked vice presidents who went on to become presidents. (Right. Chills run down the spine, don’t they?) Biden didn’t hesitate and said Johnson, because of his knowledge of politics.
Oh, but Palin does have one other talent: she’s a well-trained attack dog. I think we can expect much more of this kind of slander from the Republicans in the next few weeks. She has come right out and accused Obama of associating with terrorists now.
Mrs Palin described Mr Obama as someone who saw the US “as being so imperfect… he is palling around with terrorists who would target their own country”.
Mr Obama served on a charity board several years ago with Mr Ayers, who is now a professor at the University of Illinois.
The White House hopeful, who was a child when Weather Underground was active, has denounced Mr Ayers’ radical past.
I expect she’ll start talking about how Obama is a Muslim who will want to be sworn in on a Koran soon. It’s all going to be lies and innuendo from the Republican side from here on out, and it might just work — especially if she says it with a dimple and a smile and a few lazily formed gerunds.
Is it the debate or is it Tina Fey, during last nights opening sketch I could not tell which was which.
Tina Fey is brilliant! I might be in love.
The right-wing rag known as the Sacramento Union went bankrupt and folded back in the 1990s under the leadership of Joseph Farah, later the founder of WorldNetDaily. The Union is back as an on-line journal and a free weekly throwaway tabloid. Its standards are the same as those of the Farah era. In a recent Union column, the argument was made that Sarah Palin is just like Golda Meir. Yeah, right.
If the GOP pull this off by unleashing smears from the winking, vapid Caribou Barbie…if they steal this election by ginning up the racists, gun nuts, religious freaks and punching the fear button like a hopped up speed freak, I predict rioting in the streets.
Righteous, vicious rioting in the streets.
The Red States would do well to remember what happened to Germany when it found itself in a two front war.
Definitely a lack of gravitas. This is an important job, and it would be nice if she could just pretend to take it seriously. I can’t remember if it was Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert, or Bill Maher who mentioned that she was like the Romper Room lady, but I can see that.
cousinavi,
I think the Dems have more to fear in the way of a two-front war than the Theothuglicans. After all, the Dems would be facing raving religious fundamentalists at home as well as abroad – natural allies. The Dems, on recent form, would simply knuckle under, even if defeated by outright fraud, as in 2000 and possibly 2004.
NBC Universal claimed copyright apparently, are they a proxy for the McCain/Palin ticket now?
Ya…newkewler!
I don’t just predict rioting, I plan on it. It’s already on my Google calendar, just in case. I will be unimaginably outraged at this country if that happens.
That clip was awesome! Kudos to the writers for capturing the soul of the moment.
I would love to see how her folksy attitude will work on Putin and all the other scary foreigners.
No need to invoke “terrorist” -on the scale of human shit, Ayers is one full degree lower than O.J. Simpson. At least O.J. never bragged in public on getting away with murder. I hope Obama wins and appoints him Secretary of Defense – we can use that kind of tough-minded bloodthirsty attitude.
Agh! The video is “no longer available” here. I was able to get it from googling other sources, though. Hilarious!
Yeah, I got not available as well. Weird. My favourite part was when she threw in that extra ‘maverick’ at the end to acknowledge all of the drinking games that were going on. Hilarious!
“Lazily Formed Gerunds” is a great name for a band.
Who is Bill Ayers? If he is a terrorist why is he a professor at the U. Of Illinois?
There is a contradiction here. Bill Ayers should stand up, point out that he is employed as a prof and tell the stupid bitch to stop slandering him and shut up.
Palin pals around with two different groups of vicious, known terrorists.
1. The christofascist morons who have wrecked the USA in the last 8 years and want to send it back to the Dark Ages. Millions are scared silly of Death Cultist Nihilists and her. For good reasons.
2. She is associated the the Alaska Independence Party and her spouse was a member. A fascist organization that openly hates the USA and wants to seccede. The founder was murdered while attempting to acquire illegal explosives.
PZ,
I think the conclusion that someone is ill-fit because they are folksy is as flawed as the assumption that someone is fit because they are folksy (not that you were necessarily saying that). I suppose the question is: is there any value to have-a-beer-with politics, or is it simply shallow rubbish?
All the candidates have their own version of folksiness. Obama rides a bike (appealing to folks like me), talks like a preacher (not my thing), and enjoys family outings. McCain tells stories (I like a little story), is martial (not so much), and tells a good joke from time to time. It’s a matter of which folks one is appealing to, or rather, which thing appeals or doesn’t appeal to folks who happen to be listening.
Government administration is a complex apparatus which politicians are tasked to explain in a time-frame shorter than your average lecture – sometimes in the 30 seconds range. The “folksy factor” is a politician’s ability to translate that complexity into something everyone can hear, and want to hear. Aside from the fabrications, out-right lies, and the stupidity of his policies in general, George Bush can actually put things into simple unambiguous terms. I knew what he meant when he said “you’re with us, or you’re against us.” I didn’t like it. But I understood it. In spite of his linguistic blundering, he gets an A for communication.
What am I saying here? I don’t think folksiness is just a method of determining authenticity, but also a sort-of key to the front door. If your listeners don’t feel comfortable listening to you, don’t understand the language you’re using, or feel rejected by you, it doesn’t really matter what you say. There’s value to being able to speak as the Romans do while in Rome.
Of course, the whole phenomenon reminds me of that barrage of irrelevant interests scratched across the bottom of every resume. The disparaging thing about modern politics is that the resumes of politicians seem sometimes to be dominated by that section. I have to admit, politics in the U.S. (and more and more so up here too) sounds less and less like competing parties, and more and more like competing ethnicities.
This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by NBC Universal
Hulu is good for Americans (and those with American proxies):
http://www.hulu.com/watch/37730/saturday-night-live-vp-debate-open-palin–biden
@Jams nothing wrong with folksy, the problem is that it ends there!
Say about Bill Maher what you want,but when it comes to religion or Palin,the man is spot on and just fantastic.Im willing to compartmentalize in his case,I freely admit !
New Rules on Palin from this week,including the witchdoctor vid here:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=CIcnAt4fYTw
Oh,and its 2 am,I had a bad day at work and am off to the Casino lol
It’s not really that surprising that McCain/Palin are resorting to slander. Obama/Biden have a strong lead, and are polling much better than their opponents, including in places that in the past traditionally went to Republicans. The GOP are now so desperate as to having to resort to Rovian tactics after they failled to use the economic crisis to rally greater support for their candidate.
By the way, whoever wins will not be dealing with Vladimir Putin. The Russian presidency saw a changing of the guard in May. Whoever becomes president of the USA, will instead have to “look into the eyes and see the soul of” Dmitry Medvedev.
I call Godwin!
In fact, that might almost even be Hitler Zombie-worthy!
Gibbon@20,
Putin is no longer Russian President, true, but there’s little doubt he’s still in charge, as Prime Minister.
Um… Why has YouTube pulled this video? And why do they SUCK SO MUCH lately???
Here’s the video on NBC, where they probably won’t take it down — http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/vp-debate-open-palin-biden/727421/
I get “video no longer available, but this worked.
Orac: I reject your Godwin. I did not call anyone a Nazi (even though, insofar as Red State America is concerned, the tag is appropriate…and particularly so in the case of Frau Palin). Merely a matter of tactics should the GOP succeed in fragmenting the electorate – again – and stealing the election with appeals to divisive, fear-mongering, weak-minded, single-issue bullshit rather than anything resembling competence or a cogent plan for the future of the country.
Great Dino-Riding Jebus! If you need any further proof (besides the Ayers crap from Palin) check out Rahm Emanuel and Marsha Blackburn on CNN with Wolf (GASP) Blitz….Er….(GASP) having a little slap fight. One of them has facts, the other lies and slanders. I’ll leave it to you to decide which is which.
Jams: You miss the point, I think. It’s not the folksy speech, it’s the lack of content and the obvious lack of comprehension that the folksy speech is designed and employed to mask. Bill Clinton had a folksy way of speaking – so did Ronald Reagan. The former was a Rhodes scholar who left the country with a budget surplus, the later was a senile B-list actor who spent two terms napping in front of John Wayne movies while the kids played Iran-Contra in the basement. I don’t care HOW they speak, I care about what they SAY and what they DO. Everything we’ve seen from the GOP for the past eight years, and from the McCain campaign over the past few months, demonstrates nothing more than snake-oil wrapped up in buzz words…you betcha (WINK).
Well, they better investigate Senator Orrin Hatch. Some of the same people who consorted with Ayers also gave money to Hatch.
Obama served on a charity board with Ayers.
Sarah Palin sleeps with an America-hating traitor.
Yeah, GOP, let’s talk about contacts with terrorists. Sounds like fun.
this would explain soooo much: http://www.briancuban.com/tina-fey-arrested-in-vp-debate-bamboozle/
Biden and Palin were asked to name the past vice presidents they admire most.
Biden didn’t hesitate and said Johnson, because of his knowledge of politics.
Lyndon Johnson? Biden admires the man who sacrificed thousands in a lost war?
Some facts about Johnson’s war:
By 1968 there were 550,000 American soldiers inside Vietnam; in 1967 and 1968 they were being killed at the rate of over 1000 a month.
Johnson escalated the war effort continuously from 1964 to 1968 and the number of American deaths rose. In two weeks in May 1968 alone American deaths numbered 1,800 with total casualties at 18,000.
I think any sane person who lived during that time would call Johnson one of the worst presidents in history, but Biden admires him. That’s very strange.
Raven:
Bill Ayers was a member of the Weather Underground, a militant anti-war group (yeah, I know, that makes SO MUCH sense) from the 70s. They bombed a bunch of public buildings, though it’s unclear whether or not their bombs actually killed anyone – there was one bombing that killed a policeman and injured another one, but the WU disclaimed responsibility. They also were part of a raid on a Brinks van that killed three people. Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherman_(organization)
Someone made a documentary about them a few years ago. It was called “The Weather Underground” and it was pretty good.
Bill Ayers is now, of all things, a professor of education.
BobC, while Johnson’s handling of the Viet Nam war was questionable, his real impact was on civil rights and the welfare structure he put in place. He got major civil rights and voting rights legislation passed through a troublesome congress. The welfare legislation put a real safety net in place for poor people. While some of the welfare programs were later dropped and/or modified, some of those programs are still in place today.
I can understand how Biden could admire the man looking at domestic issues.
Bob: How do you know Biden wasn’t referring to ANDREW JOHNSON (succeeded Lincoln follolwing assassination)?
And even if he DID mean LBJ (who admittedly had his bad days…weeks…oh, ALRIGHT! Years), that’s rather a stronger response than naming Ferraro (who wasn’t)…not to mention being unable to cite a SINGLE USSC decision or a SINGLE newspaper or magazine she reads.
One would hope the Gov of Alaska might know something about the Exxon case, and read something with more relevance to the principles of peace, order and good government than rags generated by the John Birch Society…
…or My Little Goat read upside down ala Dubya – a man too stupid to realize the books upside even when there are brightly colored illustrations.
It’s time to send the phoney, destructive hucksters packing.
I want a f***ing LANDSLIDE.
“Heh heh…look at the goat. It can fly upside down. Heh heh.”
I am not certain who sends more chills down my spine, McCain or his clueless running mate. I am also much afraid that the Bradley effect may be very real, perhaps enough so to cost Obama the election. Nevertheless I console myself somewhat with the thought that if Palin should become president, even most republicans in congress, despite what they may say now, realize that she is both bat and owlshit crazy, so no matter who controls the legislative branch may restrain much of her lunacy.
Now that the Dems gave y’all your “bail-out” with the help of their evil twins in Congress, with Obama and McCain both stepping forward claiming “I called it!” while two years of video disputes those claims…
…and a thirty year veteran Joe Biden scratches his head and still can’t get a grip on what government and its monetary policy did to promote a debtor nation…
…and Obama still won’t admit to watching the system distort the markets from the inside, taking money from and promoting two failed enterprises…
…and a 26 year Congressional veteran claims that the economy “is fundamentally sound” like a couple of hours before a crises was announced…
…y’all want to jump on poor Sarah Palin, claiming she is not knowledgably fit to “understand” the current economic crises?
The mind boggles.
These are all people who are about to facilitate the destruction of the value of the dollar and y’all are discussing which one will do it with less “folksiness” in their voice during a single, vapid and unacceptably shallow debate?
Scott from Oregon again with more asinine commentary. Why aren’t we electing you?
Scott: Love the reasoning. “I find the experienced and educated candidates not to my liking. They have all made what I consider to be errors. Let’s give the vapid moron who hasn’t cocked anything up on a national scale a shot at the board.”
This despite the fact that she has tried to ban books and fire the wee municipal librarian who stood up to her; seems to have used her office to run a vendetta against the man who divorced her sister; cheated on her taxes; wants to ban abortion; is opposed to same sex unions in any form; would “choose” to force rape and incest victims to carry a pregnancy to term, and wants it taught in the science classroom that humans and dinosaurs co-existed.
All that, and stupid too. I can see why she appeals to you.
????
Pardon me, sir, but I think you may be a dolt.
Oregonian Scott
What’s your point? None of your bulleted points change the fact that Palin is a dangerous death cultist, horny for Armageddon and shouldn’t be anywhere near the presidency.
“I find the experienced and educated candidates not to my liking. ”
I find Biden a Washington habit, and Obama a slick professional politician, whose only real foray into the private sector was in working for an indicted criminal.
McCain is so distasteful I have no words, simply bile.
Palin is a McCain ruse that unfortunatly just might work.
How does anyone get behind any of these knuckleheads is beyond me?
What’s happened to this country?
Jams wrote:
True, but the problem is that it’s the Republican spin masters who are trumping the folksy style over substance argument when it comes to the debate.
I’ve got some Repug spin master hype samples on my blog, and I don’t even include Rich Lowry’s orgasmic “Little Starbursts” comments:
http://normdoering.blogspot.com/2008/10/vp-debate.html
So how long before someone finds evidence of Palin (and McBush) chumming it up with people who advocate firebombing abortion clinics?
Oh! Silly me. I forgot. That isn’t terrorism, is it?
I hope that the people that are falling for the folksy stuff are already stupid enough to have made their mind up to vote for mccain.
While completely ignoring his responsibility for thousands of deaths in a lost war. Sorry, but I can’t understand that at all. I lived during that time. My brother was shot at in Vietnam, and I got drafted because of it. People were getting slaughtered over there. Meanwhile Johnson made no effort to win that war or get out of it.
I doubt Biden admires Andrew Johnson who was a racist.
I’m voting for Obama, and I wouldn’t have a problem with Biden becoming president if Obama died in office. I’m just very surprised Biden would have anything nice to say about one of the worst presidents in American history.
You can download and own this clip (at least for now)at http://www.rightpundits.com/?p=2161
How does anyone get behind any of these knuckleheads is beyond me? – Scott from Oregon
Right. Everyone should have supported your hero Ron Paul, a man so crassly stupid he dismisses the scientific consensus on evolution and on global warming, because they don’t fit his two barmy religions.
As one of the army generals said about the Commander in chief, “we tried electing a moron and found out it didn’t work.”
The main reason people are appalled with Palin is that she is ignorant and basically not very bright. An airhead.
The USA can’t keep electing idiots and expect to end up as anything but the next banana republic.
McCain is a sick old man of 72 who is unlikely to survive even one term as president. He has been rumored for months to be showing alarming neurological symptons, including transient ischemic attacks. If it looks like Palin is running for president instead of McBush, this is because she probably is.
Scott from O,
Please, it’s painful to hear you say the same things again and again. It’s like listening to a three year old. I commented on this in another post.
Here’s some advice that might keep you out of the dungeon for a bit longer. Before making a comment on any of the threads here, ask yourself this question “Do I have anything new to add that I haven’t said dozens of times already? Is what I’m about to say relevant to the discussion? Will what I’m saying make me look like a complete ass-face?”
If you do these things, you’ll find you post much less frequently (perhaps not at all, in your case) but you may walk out of here with a modicum of respect.
YouTube pulled the video.
“Right. Everyone should have supported your hero Ron Paul, a man so crassly stupid he dismisses the scientific consensus on evolution and on global warming, because they don’t fit his two barmy religions.”
Say it enough times and it might make it true (at least in your mind).
“Crassly stupid” people don’t get through a 50 year medical career and then engage in politics on the national level for over 20.
That said, I’ve always maintained he’d make a lousy president, and I still maintain that. The guy is an ideologue, and not very “presidential”.
Which is why I am glad he is in Congress, promoting his simple ideas and trying to point out the fallacious nature of what Washington has been doing to this country.
He and Dennis Kucinich, who holds a completely different ideology, are heroic in my mind because they take strong and noble stances.
Paul, against the military and warring and empire maintaining and the Federal Reserve, and Dennis for going after Bush and the lies his administration told to sell a war.
Watching the “bailout” debacle, I have a few new heroes now.
DiFazio and Kaptur both come to mind…
I can see I’m not the only one who goes in for drinking games meta-humour.
“Please, it’s painful to hear you say the same things again and again. It’s like listening to a three year old. I commented on this in another post.”
And you think “Palin bad, McCain evil, Obama da man!” is something new and original?
The irony is so thick it clings like a booger when you flick it…
What’s with all the threats of censorship? What kind of liberals do we now have who think censorship of ideas is kosher?
What’s happening to America?
Scott,
What threats of censorship?
It has long been revealed that Johnson knew damn well the war against Vietnam was “unwinnable”, but persevered because he knew that the Republicans (who also knew the politico-military reality) would slice him to bits, with the active collaboration of the mass media, if he didn’t continue the annual sacrifice of thousands of Americans, hundreds of thousands of Asians and billions of dollars.
While by no means innocent, LBJ can be seen as a tragic victim of ruthless partisanship and public delusion.
Trying to answer Ifill’s question in my own mind, I had to go back to Henry Wallace (1941-45) to find a veep for whom my initial reaction was not “j’accuse!“
BobC: On the the grounds Biden cited, knowledge of politics, LBJ was undoubtedly outstanding. If you wanted to get a bill through Congress, he was the guy to go to. I lived through his presidency too and vividly remember hating his war, but let’s not forget the civil rights and social legislation he fought for. He did far more in those areas than Kennedy ever even considered. I have gradually come around to the view that despite all his faults, LBJ was a great president. But then I have also decided that we could do worse, have done in fact done far worse, than another Eisenhower.
Just do what we germans should have done when there was still time to prevent a global catastrophe.
Scott from O,
Please show any and all places on any thread where I have said that, much less repeatedly. You will find places where, on topic (which is more than you can say), I have commented on what an idiot Palin is, but that’s not really the same is it?
There’s been no threats made against you. However, if you look at the killfile rules, you are breaking several of them. First and foremost, Insipidity. This is followed closely by Slagging, and perhaps not finally, Trolling. I should probably put in Stupidity, but I’ll hold off for now.
Biden stated he admired Johnson for his knowledge of politics (as PZ stressed at the start). You and I may believe that Johnson was a very bad man for how he prolonged the war, but it is difficult to ignore the fact that he knew the profession of politics inside and out.
Final comment: even if I could overlook Ron Paul’s foolish notions about economy and international relations, his all too common relationships with the worst people around (racists and others, who were given free reign to publish in his newsletters) makes it impossible for me to view him with anything but disgust.
“However, if you look at the killfile rules, you are breaking several of them. First and foremost, Insipidity.”
Two entire posts about me? Am I that interesting? Or are you being insipid?
The irony is so obvious I’m now picking its teeth out of my ass…
Politics in America has become a two-legged stool. That’s why things are so fucking broken.
It’s like watching a mob standing at the foot of a cliff, everybody pointing to two caves and declaring that they know the right way to go. I look around and wonder what’s wrong with going back the way you came?
Or its like watching someone choose between an Ali jab or a right hand lead. I wonder why they don’t just climb out of the ring?
There is far too much power in Washington, completely disproportionate to the level of intelligence IN Washington.
I want to see the power deflated and government given back to the people who make up communities.
It’s all going to be lies and innuendo from the both sides from here on out, and it might just work
Fixed it for you. Always stunned how people still believe one political party is fundamentally more honest or ethical then the other.
Two sides, same dirty coin.
“Two sides, same dirty coin.”
Exactly.
It seems some take the exposure of the flaws of a candidate for one party as explicit acceptance of the practices of the other.
Link no longer works. Thanks PZ you broke the interwebs again.
‘Mrs Palin described Mr Obama as someone who saw the US “as being so imperfect […]”‘
…as opposed to Palin and McCain, who think everything is perfectly fine and dandy and who therefore plan to just sit in the White House for four years twiddling their thumbs?
You can’t solve problems if you don’t acknowledge they exist.
Scott from Oregon said: I look around and wonder what’s wrong with going back the way you came?
You have got to be kidding me.
If you mean in terms of society, you must really be a jerk – would it be enough to go back to before gays weren’t allowed to come out of the closet, or would you like to own slaves? Or perhaps to when only male property-owners could vote?
If you mean economically – back to what? The 90’s bubbles? The 80’s “trickle down”? The 70s inflation?
There’s no “golden age” here to go back to.
Scott,
Sigh.
Thanks for clearing that up for us Scott! We didn’t understand that’s how you felt, having only heard you state that one way or another some 300 times or so before.
I’m done feeding you, troll. You’re sad and pathetic. Annoying as well, for sure! However, you’re mainly just sad and pathetic.
“True, but the problem is that it’s the Republican spin masters who are trumping the folksy style over substance argument when it comes to the debate.” – Norman Doering
This is a a bit of a strawman. I haven’t heard any Republicans promoting style over substance. What I have heard, is Republican pundits claiming that a leader who can’t capture the ears of the people will never be heard – no matter what they have to say. In fact, Democrats argue this in favour of Obama. The point seems to be an excepted one across the board.
American politics in general right now is experiencing a significant trust gap between its people and its leadership. This is a bipartisan phenomenon most dramatically demonstrated by the competition between both parties for the position of “most opposed to government and George Bush”. That trust gap, claim Republicans, will be bridged by politicians to a degree proportionate to their authenticity. Like her or dislike her, Palin is authentic.
In the end, the reasoning is that without that, the rest just doesn’t matter. What good is a leadership noone cares to listen to? I think Republicans have a point there. The problems with Palin, I think, come after the folksy veneer.
As a point though, I think Biden has an authenticity to him too. His gaffes generally come off as imprudent rather than stupid – which points to honesty rather than idiocy.
Pfft. Scott is just a malcontent who considers himself clever for being so jaded and insightful as to see through and have contempt for all the flawed options on the table.
Unlike the true cynic, he’s just a cranky, petulant child without any serious analysis or reasoned alternatives.
He just sits around saying, over and over again, how everything sucks. It’s tiresome and pretty strong evidence of a weak mind that needs attention. While I wouldn’t want to be seen as stooping to ad hominem (even though I did call him a dolt earlier in the thread) it would seem the poor lad just didn’t get nearly enough hugs as a child.
Perhaps if we all just gathered round and showed him some love – the same sort of love that Sarah Palin has for the Lord…the same sort of love that all the gentle little creatures of the forest have for Obama…he’ll find that life isn’t so scary anymore.
Failing that, we could beat him with sticks.
On a lighter note: Voter intimidation is on in Philadelphia
http://cousinavi.wordpress.com/2008/10/06/voter-intimidation-philadelphia/
PZ, I really like your blog and I’m with you all the way, even regarding the crackers, but… Palin’s pronunciation of -ing in some words is not the result of “lazy gerunds.” It’s simply a dialectal variation of English, and in fact at certain points in the history of English it’s been the prestige pronunciation.
Palin’s got plenty of other baggage to mock, and plenty to be frightened about as well.
Ronald Kephart
Associate Professor, Anthropology and Linguistics
University of North Florida
But – so what? Authenticity per se is neutral; it says nothing about the quality of a thing or person. Margarine made with 100 percent vegetable oil – and that proclaims the fact loudly on its package – is Authentic Margarine (TM), but what does that say about whether margarine tastes better or worse than butter? Precisely nothing.
It seems to me you’re saying, “People are tired of Boastful Butter, prancing around in the dairy case like it was a shopper’s savior. I mean, sure, butter tastes better than margarine, but it just doesn’t present itself as authentic. Boy, if butter would just stick to the facts, I’d get behind it. At least margarine is authentic – it tells you just what it is, and doesn’t try to hide its shortcomings. That’s good enough for me. I mean, I don’t like the taste of margarine, but I’m gonna buy it. No more fancy-pants peacock butter for me!”
OK, I went on waaaay too long with that tortured metaphor. Maybe that’s not what you meant to get across, and I’m just being cranky:)
Ah, but it’s not now. Yes, yes, I know. Linguists are descriptive, not prescriptive. That doesn’t change the fact that many people react positively or negatively to various regional dialects. It doesn’t change the fact that politicians cynically heighten certain regional pronunciations to appeal to those who share them. As a linguist this must be obvious to you.
Those who don’t share them often detect this ploy and find it extremely irritating (I’m among them). Especially when the regional dialect being deployed is conspicuously the non-prestige one, and is being aimed at a fearful and parochial demographic threatened by high-falutin’ intallecshuls who talk all fancy.
There’s nothing inherently better or worse about one pronunciation compared to another (unless one is largely unintelligible). But I don’t think it’s useful or helpful to ignore the obvious and intentional manipulation of these pronunciation signifiers to stoke emotion and class associations among the audience.
Ahem,
the question was “Who do you admire as VicePresident.” If the question had been, who do you admire as President would Biden’s answer have been the same? I think there would be a good chance that it would not.
Jams wrote:
If you haven’t heard it’s because you’re not listening.
It’s worse than style over substance. This is Rich Lowry’s orgasmic “Little Starbursts” OpEd:
Now linked on my blog:
http://normdoering.blogspot.com/2008/10/vp-debate.html
Obama Muslim? I thought that the problem with Obama was simply miscegenation!? Perhaps our conservatives think that Blackness is not enough to discard Obama and they need to point an hypothetical Muslimness.
“If you mean in terms of society, you must really be a jerk – would it be enough to go back to before gays weren’t allowed to come out of the closet, or would you like to own slaves? “”
Oh brother. Society IS NOT GOVERNMENT.
Just as society is not religion, society runs and grows IN SPITE OF GOVERNMENT, not because of it.
The liberal fallacy is that government is the tool for leading societal change, when in fact, societal mores lead government.
Sure, you can point out legislation that aided in moving society forward, but you would be inaccurate if you assumed society hadn’t already changed the zeitgeist within its own members.
“If you mean economically – back to what? The 90’s bubbles? The 80’s “trickle down”? The 70s inflation?
There’s no “golden age” here to go back to.”
Of course there is no “golden age”, but there was once a time when the election of an idiot wasn’t quite the rock in the pond it is now.
If GW Bush and Dick Cheney could be said to have anything positive in their eight years in Washington, it is that they showed the world and the American people why it is dangerous to place so much power and control in one place.
I mean, WTF? Oregon didn’t deserve to have their forests ruled by a Bush administration. There was no need for that, when Oregonians are quite capable of arguing over the direction of forest management on their own.
This is one example in a thousand what I am talking about.
What does a Chicago Lawyer and his cronies know about Pacific salmon?
And why does anyone support the US burning huge amounts of oil cruising military ships around the globe? I thought y’all were the global warming types? Not to mention the money it costs to do so…
And why do y’all allow the Federal government to arrest those who use pot for pain med?
Why do you allow the Federal government to dictate what sexual orientation is allowed to marry and what is not?
Why do you allow the Federal government from taking your taxes to pay interests on loans they took out, because they all rushed into Iraq to…. uh… well, I’m not sure?
Why do y’all allow the Federal government to hand out huge sums of your money to foreign dictators?
Why do y’all want the US Federal Governemnt to be involved in South American politics? Does it bother you when people die in other lands because the US Federal government thinks it knows what is best for others?
Why do you want the US government to use your money and your young men and women to protect corporations doing business overseas? Are corporate profits worth the life of Americans?
Why do you allow the Federal governemnt to gloss over the fact that it really isn’t in control of much of anything, that the banksters (as has just been observed) really hold the strings?
Yep. I be one them malcontents, alright!
My only real irritation with her speech patterns is that they’ve become overemphasized and pronounced over the past few months. Looking back on statements she made just this past year, and I don’t hear any “cute” folksy phrases and her “g” dropping is a lot less pronounced.
After Palintology and Palinoscopies, all I really want to see now is a Palinectomy!
Shar, #75 – that was exactly the point I was trying to make in my post #70. I’m glad I’m not the only one who noticed it.
ROTFL! So true, so true. Here’s a Molly nomination for you if I don’t forget.
LOL! But wasn’t that photoshopped?
Here’s the quote:
“This is a dark chapter in our history. Whatever else happens, our country’s international standing has been frittered away by people who don’t have the foggiest understanding of how the hell the world works. America has been conducting an experiment for the past six years, trying to validate the proposition that it really doesn’t make any difference who you elect president. Now we know the result of that experiment [laughs]. If a guy is stupid, it makes a big difference.”
— General Tony McPeak (retired), member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during the Gulf War
Egnorant people, however, do.
And you wouldn’t perhaps like to read comment 24…? Why do you comment if you haven’t read the thread?
Hey PZ, just for shits and grins, why don’t you do a thread on all the lies Biden spewed during the debate?
No I didn’t think so.
Hey Eric Atkinson, just for shits and grins, why don’t you give us a post where you engage the problems Palin has as a candidate without falling back on “but he’s a douchebag too, so I don’t have to confront her problems.” Nope, didn’t think so.
Scott, your list of questions in comment 75 is a very good argument for voting for someone who is not a Bushevik. It is not an argument for turning the USA into some kind of loose confederation.
Chemist:
I guess a Palobotamy would be impossible. Can’t take a frontal lobe off something without a brain.
Maybe, if her name had been Paling, she would mispronounce fewer words… Just sayin.
Hey JoshS. Wonderful logic you have there. If I claim the other guy is a douchebag then that means my guy has no problems that need discussion.
Spoken like a true member of the MSN.
@ #83
Good one, David. It took me a few seconds to get it.
@ The clowns above ranting about LBJ. See Dust’s comment above. The question involved Vice President. If you “didn’t hear the question,” you’re doing this wrong.
And haven’t an awful lot of cities recently put bans of pit bulls? Just wonderin’ . . . .
Damn! Speaking of doing this wrong: “bans of pit bulls.” Stinkin’ prepositions. I saw the “of” as an “on.” Oops.
Um. .Eric Atkinson. . are you so addled you don’t recognize when someone’s criticizing your position? And “member of the MSN?” Huh? This coming from a member of Teh AOl!!11?
How Japan saw the debate
Palobotamy : An operation that those of the political left will need performed on themself’s if BHO blows this election.
Um. JoshS. are you so addled you don’t recognize when someone’s criticizing your position?
Nick Gotts @ 87,
You failed to mention Ron Paul’s desire to go back to the Gold Standard on your short list of his crazy. Yes, the Gold Standard. For those of you who are wondering what that would do, we can look to history:
“The current judgment of economic historians (see, for example, Barry J. Eichengreen, Golden Fetters) is that attachment to the gold standard played a major part in keeping governments from fighting the Great Depression, and was a major factor turning the recession of 1929-1931 into the Great Depression of 1931-1941.”
Hmmm, sounds like a great person to put in charge as we try to fend of another depression. Of course his followers claim this isn’t really true, although he’s written about it constantly and put bills out relentlessly to that point, saying there is the need for “America to return to the type of monetary system envisioned by our Nation’s founders: one where the value of money is consistent because it is tied to a commodity such as gold”
I know the list of things Ron Paul doesn’t get about reality is to large to list, but I think this relly should be noted.
Scott, unfortunately for every Oregon that knows how to manage their forests well, there’s Wyoming which wants to turn Yellowstone into a snowmobile-paradise, and an Alaska just itching to put another leaky pipeline through the tundra.
I agree with you that the government is completely overblown, but what it needs is not a turning back of the clock, but a solid housecleaning. Loose federalism was a necessity when information traveled on foot, so that every state was basically its own world unknown and un-understandable to its neighbors; when a visit to the doctor’s didn’t cost you one month of income, and no amount of money could save you from most diseases; when environmental damage was limited to your idiot neighbor into creek upstream from you; and when your wellbeing didn’t depend on the wellbeing of the next state over, much less some other country.
now we have instant communications, a global economy, a global environmental problem, and the knowledge that there’s a limit to a good percentage of the resources we use (not just oil, though that seems the most urgent one; metals etc. are finite resources, too); we have the potential to cure most people of most diseases (but it’s often too expensive for a single person to carry that cost)
what we also have, is a government with 200 years of history and accretion of things because of issues-of-the-moment that are long past. a massive overhaul is long overdue.
it’s also not likely, short of a major nationwide disaster/revolution
Oh, I get it, Eric. We’re playing “I know you are, but what am I?” Thanks for the laugh:)
I missed an O and an A in the last line of my last comment. Sorry.
Those who don’t share them often detect this ploy and find it extremely irritating (I’m among them). – Josh S.
Indeed. Many of us Brits found Tony Blair’s affectation of a working class southerner’s accent extremely annoying. It was most obvious in his substitution of the glotall stop for “t” in the middle of words. Blair had an upper-class upbringing, going to a very expensive private school, then to Oxford. Nothing wrong with that, but the attempt to suggest he was the son of a factory worker from Essex made me want to strangle him. Mind you, to be fair, I’d have wanted to strangle him however he spoke.
Thanks Nick, I knew I couldn’t be the only one who thought that way! I will confess that provincial accents of any sort are likely to annoy me, just on their own. No, that’s not nice, I admit, but I do have a reason for it. I’d be curious about what you think.
It seems to me that people who have strong regional accents are statistically more likely to have traveled away from home a little less, to be less likely to embrace cosmopolitan outlooks, and to be a little more likely to have “hometown pride,” just for the sake of it. Again, I stress this just appears to me to be statistically more likely, not absolute. And I could be dead wrong.
Example: I grew up in an economically and culturally backwater town in upstate New York. By good fortune, I got admitted to one of the top private colleges in the country. When my new colleagues (some in good humor, some unkindly) pointed out my regional accent, I became very self-conscious. The upstate New York accent is not unlike Palin’s. Lots of really sharp, nasal “A” sounds; the speaker sounds as if his mouth is puckered after sucking on a lemon.
It sounds like this: “Oh, Gaaaaad, that looks good. I’ll have that sey-lid with the rey-inch dressing!” (Oh God, that looks good. I’ll have that salad with the ranch dressing).
Once I heard it in my own voice, I worked hard to get rid of it. Why? Because it was an instant signal to anyone who didn’t come from my region showing exactly where I came from. No, that’s not bad in and of itself, but I learned that perception could override what I was saying because how I was saying it was so distracting. I knew this was true because I had that reaction to others who had regional dialects far different from mine. I still slip into it a little if I’ve had a few glasses of wine, but many people have commented that my diction and pronunciation is clear, easy to understand, and doesn’t sound distinctly regional.
I realize this sounds a bit judgmental. I don’t mean to at all to imply that people with regional accents of any sort are any less educated or capable than those without them, or those who have the “prestige” accent. But it is distracting to listen to for an outsider, no matter where you come from.
Thanks, St. Louis for leaving me to argue with an entire arena full of republican freaks all by myself. I’m refering to the post-debate rally at S.L.U. which Palin herself attended.
Josh S.
It wasn’t the accent itself that annoyed me, but the falseness of it. I admit the accent he affected (often called “estuary English”) isn’t my favourite, but it was the fact that this upper-class politician had carefully cultivated it that got to me.
Dahan@92,
I’ve no doubt SfO thinks returning to the gold standard would be a wonderful thing, because Ron Paul says so – I was looking for cases where he just might recognise the stupidity of his hero’s views.
Palin is a national embarrassment. (Surprise surprise! The GOP has made a mockery of Alaska yet again.) Her debate performance was all T&A and zero substance–just compare it to her gubernatorial debates to see the difference. I think Tina Fey got it exactly right in portraying Palin as prepped for a Miss America competition rather than a vice presidential debate. And maybe Palin can sell that Obama-zinger on eBay like she did with the governor’s jet… oops, she lied about that, too!
TinaFey is a dead ringer for HockeyMom, and a genius. Here’s another link if others fail, includes other bits from the program:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/04/tina-fey-as-sarah-palin-i_n_131964.html
_________________________________________
Hockeymom and scooter take phone calls: http://acksisofevil.org/audio/inner195.mp3
____________________________________________
Here’s a repost from the traffic link, just too good not to share:
Driving to work yesterday I noticed a Shaden Fraude Hurricane Ike Carrumba upside.
No steeples.
I pass at least 40 churches on the way to work, every one of them was de-steepled. They had undergone steeplectomies.
god took all his steeples back
“Scott, your list of questions in comment 75 is a very good argument for voting for someone who is not a Bushevik.”
That would be true if it were not for the complicity of the Democrats. see votes on FISA, The Patriot Act, The Iraq war, the DOD budget… etc…
“It is not an argument for turning the USA into some kind of loose confederation.”
I am not arguing for a loose confederation. I am arguing for a return to local communities the rights to govern themselves. I am arguing for the abolishment of the federal income tax, allowing states and counties more leeway to tax and implement those taxes whereby communities who object to where the money goes can actually talk to the people spending it.
I am asking for an open inquiry into the Federal Reserve and its members
“”now we have instant communications, a global economy, a global environmental problem, “”
All the more reason not to consolidate power in any one place. Look at who spends what in Washington to get legislation to favor themselves. The whole system is badly organized and needs to be rethunk by “we the people”…
“I’ve no doubt SfO thinks returning to the gold standard would be a wonderful thing, because Ron Paul says so…”
Money not based on the value of anything is subject to the perception of what that money is worth.
In an instant, fiat money could be worth nothing if confidence in its worth disappears.
We’ll see what happens next year, as the next wave of housing defaults hits the market again…
Top 10 Corporate PAC Contributors:
Obama:
Goldman Sachs $739,521
UBS AG $419,550
Lehman Brothers $391,774
Citigroup Inc $492,548
Morgan Stanley $341,380
Latham & Watkins $328,879
Google Inc $487,355
JPMorgan Chase & Co $475,112
Sidley Austin LLP $370,916
Skadden, Arps et al $360,409
Just in case y’all think Obama is a man of the little people…
oops, the last post ate the quote. #104 respond to this:
I’m late to the party and this may have been covered, but re: Comment #1 from Steve8282…I think you meant “…which is witch?”
@Scott,
I’m not pro-Ron Paul, for the record. At best he has some interesting ideas, but too many of them strike me as being over the top.
Still, I’m going to stick up for you, not really knowing what your previous history is on this blog, just that there is some.
Apparently, if you support anyone that is not one of the two major political candidates, it officially qualifies you as insane in front of the people who have been doing the same things expecting different results.
I’m voting Obama as the lesser of two evils in my blood red state in the hopes it will tip a balance with all the other newly registered voters, but I can’t fathom why people are so cum-in-their-pants happy about him. He’s extensively flawed, and it pisses me off that Bush and McCain have so extensively lowered the standards that we can have shit dumped on us and consider it an improvement.
Obama is pro-Afghanistan, despite the utter pointlessness our mission there, he’s pro-bailout despite an utter lack of EVIDENCE it will have any effect, he’s pro-FISA (and really any candidate not making a lot of noise about our constitutional rights is immediately suspect.), and quite frankly I think he’s too weak not to fall into the hands of his advisers (whom I hope are going to be good.)
Meanwhile, he’s more of the same in terms of corporate contributions to his campaign, as well as in terms of participating in the inexplicable American presidential love-fest with Israel’s right wing parties.
Like I said, I’m voting for the man, but it’s not in my job description as a citizen to refuse to hold his feet to the fire because of that.
Look, the fact that a third party candidate is rarely voted into office is a sign that something is wrong with our political system. Issues are rarely black and white (or red and blue) and we end up with candidates who agree more than they disagree because there’s no room for nuance in our political discourse, and we need nuance.
Ugh. This is the 4th time (count’em 4) that I’ve heard someone bring up the “drop the ‘g’ thing”. Talk about petty.
I’m no fan of McCain et al, but if this is the best we’ve got…
…and I’m going to concede that it would be nice if the world’s monetary systems weren’t just an exercise in mass psychology. (not only do currencies have a mostly symbolical value, we have an entire business sector dealing in nothing other than the meaningless pushing around of money)
If you like Tina Fey, you’ll enjoy this Palin pastiche from R. J. Eskow: “I can fly this plane just fine, darn it!“
I haven’t read through all the comments here, so I don’t know if this has been posted yet.
Sarah Palin attacked Obama’s patriotism today over his association with former Weatherman Bill Ayers — a move that makes it perfectly legitimate to raise questions about the Palins’ associations with a group founded by an Alaska secessionist who once professed his “hatred for the American government” and cursed our “damn flag.”
Video doesn’t work. :(
“”I agree with you that the government is completely overblown, but what it needs is not a turning back of the clock, but a solid housecleaning.””
That’s really all I am saying, open discussions into what roles are important to be Federal, and what roles are better left local. As it is, there is a mass migration of power up the ladder, leaving us common folk unable to have much control in simple things like when and how our streets get paved.
It’s absurd.
“I’m not pro-Ron Paul, for the record. At best he has some interesting ideas, but too many of them strike me as being over the top.”
He’s like a smart and kind of nerdy uncle who reminds you that what you think about is not all there is to think about.
He’s an ideologue but he actually just enjoys the intellectualness of governmental ideas.
I think his basic premises are worthy of exploration by the masses, if only to have conversations and add new vistas into how we all view government and its effect on the world.
We really need to have monetary policy debates and more debates on the function of US militarism throughout the world.
For those who think Sarah Palin is being “genuine”, you should know that’s NOT how she used to talk in political appearances. For instance, check out one of her debates during the gubernatorial race in Alaska/
She is an expert manipulator.
About the ‘g’-dropping. I do it. You do it. Everybody does it. It is a feature of every documented dialect of English and presumably goes back centuries. It is sociolinguistically interesting in that it occurs much more frequently among the lower classes and in informal speech, but unless a serious conscious effort is made it will slip into even the most high-class, formal locutions. If Biden did it less often, it is likely because of his long experience with public speaking.
Now, I hold a degree in linguistics, and I know that it is supposed to be descriptive rather than prescriptive. Nevertheless, I think that there *are* correct and incorrect pronunciations of certain words, when you take into account their history and spelling. “Nucular” is just plain WRONG. I don’t care if it’s popular. The word is clearly spelled “nu-cle-ar”, has been pronounced more or less the same since it entered the English language, and is pronounced as such by virtually everybody in the field of nuclear science, so it ought to be regarded as the correct pronunciation. Period. Just like you can’t call a “nucleus” a “nuculus”.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: anybody who cannot correctly pronounce the word “nuclear” should not be allowed anywhere near the nuclear codes. And if that sounds snobbish, I don’t care. I’m picky about who I want to have access to my nation’s nuclear arsenal.
Maria (#114), thanks for the link. That’s a remarkable difference. Incredibly, the national-scene Palin is revealed as even faker than I thought!! Wow!
Sven at 114
Yeah, it’s interesting because Alaskans are horrified that Palin is now representing herself as the opposite of herself, and they would know.
Her popularity has fallen by 30 points in some polls. If we are not cursed by a McCain victory, she’ll be lucky to get re-elected as governor. Career over.
oops I meant 116
The Joe Sixpacks would have gotten more bang for their buck if they had chosen “darn right” instead of “maverick” for their drinking game. God! I got sick of that *really* fast.
Great. Now I need to go and get me a Palinoscope. At least I’ll be occupied until my pornograph is repaired.
“Politics is the Art of the Possible” — Otto Von Bismarck.
Politics is the art of compromise.
when given the choice between two lipsticked pigs, pick the swine with the better lipstick. This country didn’t get into the hole it is in overnight, it was a matter of incremental change. Things won’t change for the better overnight either, but it will take change by small increments.
But can a society which has grown used to instant gratification actually wait for it ? can the be persistent enough to keep electing the right people ? I don’t know.
Both of the candidates for President claim they are an agent of change. I will not try to sway you as to which candidate is the best pick — I think most people here have already made up their minds, and I will leave the choice to your individual judgment.
I was offended by her self-description of “Energy Expert.” Someone really needs to take her to the mat on that one, and I was disappointed, given the number of times Palin changed the subject, that Biden did not once challenge that assertion.
She has a degree in Journalism, for gawd’s sake.
As a graduate of one of the west coast’s best science colleges, I want to know what classes, specifically, did she take to earn her lofty title. Math classes? Geology? Physics? Computer science? Map reading?
Because I believe she’s an energy expert like I’m a biology expert.
Looks like the video has been pulled by Big Brother.
Anyone know where there is another copy.
When Palin refers to Obama’s ‘palling around with terrorists’ – she doesn’t mean Ayers. That’s just the fig-leaf fact.
It’s dog-whistle politics. It re-enforces the fundie base’s myth that Obama’s a muslim. That’s why she says it. Nothing to do with Ayers at all.
And John McCain palls around with ministers who long for a nuclear war in the Middle East because they think it will coax Jesus into a return visit. And Palin palls with other ministers that think Alaska and Wisconsin will be refuges during Armageddon. She will try to insinuate Obama is the “Anti-Christ” before this is all over–just as that crazy “curious” minister did a week ago.
Johnnie and Sarah have a messiah complex (maverick messiahs, at that). I’m believe McCain is just starting to seriously lose his grasp on reality. I can see him refusing to concede come election night. First he’ll contest the election, then he go all prophetic and predict America’s downfall for rejecting him as savior.
You know, something strikes me:
In all this argument, either we forgot to ask a critical question or (and I concede that this is possible), I missed it.
So let me ask the question now.
Scott from Oregon, I wish to pose to you this question:
In the upcoming election, who are you going to vote FOR and why? We are not interested in who you are voting AGAINST; we want to know who you are voting FOR and how you intend to defend it. Perhaps if you answered this question unambiguously, you might get a bit more respect from people around here.
Of course, it does depend on your answer.
Perhaps if you answered this question unambiguously, you might get a bit more respect from people around here.
toooo late.
The McCain campaign is getting away with these kinds of lies for two reasons: 1) most Americans believe whatever they read and see on TV and 2) the media has abandoned it’s role as warchdog and truth teller: http://brainrageblog.blogspot.com/2008/09/blizzard-of-lies.html
Let a Canadian put straight what really this debate showed is the underlying problem in American decisionmaking in many things.
Biden said with punch that he had a passion for israel.
When a senator, would be president, says he has a passion for a foreign country/people and expects it to be received well by hos own party, the establishment, and even the people then you have motivation. If this passion is related to the events of the region where there is war and rumors of war then one must accept that this passion is a important motive and one can be suspicious a more important motive for all the troubles.
Palin also shows compliance with this passion of the establishment.
Indeed the passion for this third world people/country of 6 million Jews is the source of pre-9/11, 9/11, and post 9/11 loss of life, wealth, prestige, ideals, in America.
These troubles in the middle east have had nothing to do with the american peoples interests, values, or ideals. It has been all from Jewish influence in and agreement from the post WW11 American establishment.
The American people have been deceived about the true motivations in the region and are today led to war against nations with no beef with America except as a enabler of Israel.
As the singers sing ‘We’ve beennnnn brainnnnwashed”
As Mel Gibson said . All the wars are because of the Jews.
U.S senators should not be passionate about other countrys but about their own people or about mankinds claims to basic rights and love.
Passion for Israel has been the cause of much evil to america and that region. Passion for a foreign country is a unnatural affair of the heart. Therefore for a leader it is a traitorous act since it distorts the truth of decision making in trusted government.
Truly this time the word traitor is not wrongly used.
Bidens passion is the most important point that came out of the debate as it reveals the great silent motive behind Americas woes and lose of gods favour to some extent.
Passion for America, common mankind values, and sober international affairs judgement.
No passion for obscure peoples of no importance to America. Otherwise stop complaining about reaping what is sown.
Biden is in the passion and pocket of Jewish interests and not true American passion and interests for self protection first and wisdom abroad.
More of the same is the passion remain.
Byers,
As an anti-Zionist, I have just this to say to you:
fuck off and die you filthy antisemitic scumbag.
By all means let’s base our votes on who is closest to terrorism and pro-terrorism.
Sarah Palin is married to a member of a heavily-armed, militia-type organization which openly calls for armed rebellion against the Federal Government.
Unlike Obama she has never renounced this pro-terrorist connection.
There are two things wrong with this post.
1. Mentioning Palin’s winning a beauty contest is trotted out to insinuate that if Palin is attractive and conscious of her looks, she can’t be politically or intellectually adept. Bleh. Surely there is enough to go on without invoking the age-old ‘women are pretty and dumb, or smart and ugly’ meme.
2. Dropping ‘g’s is a dialect thing, not a ‘laziness’ thing. It is so annoying to see non-linguists play Linguist, or, more accurately, Authority On Perfect English, in order to mock anyone who doesn’t speak like they (think they) do. Language relies on context; maybe her linguistic mannerisms don’t appeal to you – neither did Bush’s – but she’s sure as hell speaking to someone, and it’s that connection that is significant rather than the particulars of her speech. (Ironically, one of the most dangerous ideas spouted by Christianity is that linguistic diversity is a bad thing, a divine punishment.)
SfO says:
Top 10 Corporate PAC Contributors:
Obama:
Goldman Sachs $739,521
UBS AG $419,550
Lehman Brothers $391,774
Citigroup Inc $492,548
Morgan Stanley $341,380
Latham & Watkins $328,879
Google Inc $487,355
JPMorgan Chase & Co $475,112
Sidley Austin LLP $370,916
Skadden, Arps et al $360,409
Good job SfO. Since Obama has had ~$450 million in donations, you just disclosed about 0.02% of Obama’s contributors. Actually, its from those companies who have thousands of employees. This indicates your level of critical thinking.
Catching up on my Pharyngureading after a busy weekend. Regarding all the talk up-thread about Ayers, Obama is not the only one who has had a political relationship with a former-radical-turned-mainstream-figure. I recall Al Franken telling the story of McCain’s reconciliation with Ifshin, as an example of McCain’s generosity of spirit… but that John McCain — the one who thought it was possible to talk with, and even potentially reconcile with, old adversaries — apparently no longer exists. My theory is that that John McCain was murdered by Karl Rove and George Bush.
Mind you, I still wouldn’t have supported that long-gone McCain against Obama… but I would’ve considered him a classier and more respectable opponent.
Levi (@115):
I’m not a linguist, but neither were the vast majority of those watching Thursday night.
Yes, we all do it every day. We also all hear it every day, and usually don’t notice it. The fact that we all did notice it in Palin’s case — the fact that it was so universally conspicuous — suggests that there’s something else going on. Either Palin’s dialect (or is the right term “idiolect” [which, BTW, isn’t the insult it sounds like!]?) is extreme, and outside the mainstream, or…
…perhaps the reason Palin did this so much more noticeably than Biden is that she was deliberately folksifying her accent. Bill Clinton had a distinctly southern/Arkansas accent, along with some folksy expressions and mannerisms… but he never seemed as forced and artificial as Palin always does.
For me, it’s not just the g’s but a whole constellation of speech mannerisms, facial expressions (winks? really?), and body language that makes her appear the polar opposite of presidential: The casualness and forced cheerfulness of her voice makes her seem inauthentic (ironically, since apparently the whole “folksy” thing was supposed to make her seem authentic to “regular people”) and is inappropriate to the gravity of the position she seeks… and the combination of pervasive smiliness (even when talking about the most serious issues) and a vaguely condescending tone seems more appropriate to a roomful of children — a kindergarten or Sunday-school class — than to an audience of adult voters gathering information to make a potentially world-changing decision.
jess (@132):
I agree that any comment implying good looks = intellectually or politically inept is out of bounds, but there is one aspect of Palin’s past as a pageant girl that’s relevant generally to her political career and specifically to Thursday’s debate: For the sake of the interview segment, pageant contestants master the skill of talking around any question so they can rely on canned, practiced answers. The infamous YouTube clip (of Miss South Carolina, IIRC) shows what happens when this process goes awry; Palin’s transparent blowing off of Ifill’s questions shows how it works when done right (though in the pageants I’ve seen, the contestant doesn’t usually “reveal the trick” the way Palin did). I heard more than one analyst predict precisely this pageant-like circumnavigation of the questions, and they were proven correct.
It’s absolutely wrong to suggest a pretty woman can’t be smart or politically tough… but “pageant girl” encompasses a whole lot more than just looks, and can tell you useful things about a person (just as other sorts of hobbies and avocations can).
BTW, here in Hartford, there’s a recent Miss Connecticut who has been a very effective political activist, and who is now (after completing her “reign”) working with the legislature on the same issues she advocated for in her “platform.”
Jus’ sayin’… ;^)
but if this is the best we’ve got…
Where in the world did you get the idea that it is? It’s a point used to emphasize Palin’s attempt to present herself as “folksy” in hopes that some people will misinterpret that as competence (or decide that folksy trumps competence; I don’t claim to understand it myself).
“Yes, we all do it every day. We also all hear it every day, and usually don’t notice it. The fact that we all did notice it in Palin’s case — the fact that it was so universally conspicuous — suggests that there’s something else going on. Either Palin’s dialect (or is the right term “idiolect” [which, BTW, isn’t the insult it sounds like!]?) is extreme, and outside the mainstream, or…”
I think the reason it’s so conspicuous is the context. You probably wouldn’t notice it if Palin was the person doing your dry cleanin’, but when she’s runnin’ for the Vice Presidency it seems a bit odd that she does it so frequently.
Palin’s dialect has a lot of features of Canadian English. The most obvious difference between her idiolect/dialect and most other English speakers is the way she pronounces her long O’s and A’s as monophthongs rather than diphthongs (that is to say, most people will pronounce the W and Y in words like “show” and “day”). Tina Fey does a good job of mimicking it. And then there’s the sheer shrillness of her voice, which as far as I can tell is just a unique property of Sarah Palin.
Well, matching one’s verbal register to the context is a nontrivial skill in a public leader, wouldn’t you say?
But I’m not sure I fully agree that we notice it because of context… at least not if by context you mean in a presidential race or debate. I’m guessing (and I really am guessing, because I haven’t done the experiment) that if we had phonetically correct transcriptions of Obama’s speeches and debates, he’d have a fair number of dropped g’s, too… but since he generally seems serious and presidential, they don’t stand out. In Palin’s case, the dropped g’s are part of a larger pattern of speech and mannerisms that make her seem generally goofy and unpresidential. Because the whole presentation seems calculated and false, the dropped g’s seem like a choice, rather than a natural habit of speech… and if they are a choice, it can only be either an ignorant one or a cynical one.
Either way, it annoys me.