Texas now has a law that requires all public schools to offer an elective course in the Christian bible, thanks to a bill authored by Warren Chisum, who will for all eternity be remembered as the “Bible-thumping dwarf from Pampa,” a phrase by Molly Ivins. This is a tricky one; I’m not opposed to teaching the bible as an example of literature, since it is, and is a rather widely used source in addition, but there’s more here than a Texas hick acquiring a sudden and previously unexhibited appreciation for literature. He may have to be remembered for something else — a palpable knack for dimwitted irony.
You see, it has to be the Christian bible, not one of them upstarts like the Bhagavad Gita or the Torah or the Quran or the Book of Mormon, ’cause none of those have historical or literary value. Really. He said that.
And Chisum said the legislature specifically addressed the Bible, not the Quran or any other religious writing, because “the Bible as a text … has historical and literary value.”
“It can’t go off into other religious philosophies because then it would be teaching religion, when the course is meant to teach literature,” he said.
I am amused. So you must teach the bible because it’s literary, but if you teach any of those other books, why, you’re just trying to sneak religion into the classroom.
The Quran and Torah have more literary value than any translation of the Christian texts. Either teach them all as part of comparative religion or teach none of them…
Such irony…
Kind of like not having gas for a generator because the gas stations have no power to pump fuel; or like lines for fuel at a fuel station were blocking the road, so they closed down the fuel station.
*headdesk*
*headdesk*
*headdesk*
*headdesk*
At least that idiotic statement about the value of the text opens the law up to legal challenges to either strike it or make it inclusive.
Come to Austin. It really isn’t as bad here as the rest of the state (except when the legislature is in session). It’s like a liberal oasis surrounded by conservative desolation.
OMFNEG
My brain just fell out.
Actually years ago I read the Torah and first books of the OT (KJV) side by side out of curiosity. Now that was educational. Probably the most interesting semantic I recall now was the use of the word servant (KJV) instead of slave (Torah).
Just for fun, I would like to see how this guy would do on a bible quiz. I’m willing to bet he hasn’t even read the thing all the way through.
What really pisses me off is that they’ve said that all schools must offer the course whether they want to or not. I’m sure they also expect these same schools to foot their own legal bills as well.
HA. I would send my kid to that class for no other reason to drive the teacher nutso. Keep em honest. But to waste a whole semester in it, when he could be taking art or english lit or biology? nevermind.
Dude’s got a beam in his eye.
God bless the blatant stupidity of your followers…
This looks like a fairly easy establishment clause violation. I bet the ACLU is already sharpening its pencils.
Austin does rock. I used to live there but I’m stuck in Temple for the time being.
In Bell county you can’t throw a rock without breaking a stained glass window.
@Maynard, #3
Houston isn’t so bad either, the religious whack-jobs tend to keep to themselves, mostly. Except for a co-worker who tried to convince me that there is science proof the moon is only 5,000 years old (something about dust) after he saw a book on buddhism on my desk. I was very close to lodging a complaint – but he shut up in time.
though – I do admit Austin is WAY cooler than Houston.
Preaching to the choir here, I reckon, but the Bhagavad Gita not only has literary and historical merit in its own right, but was also an influence on Emerson, Thoreau, T.S. Eliot, and Martin Luther King Jr, and was famously on the mind of Robert Oppenheimer on the occasion of the first successful nuclear explosion (“I am become death, the destroyer of worlds”). So you could argue it has a legitimate connection even to Western literature and history.
here’s a question…
if god is so great and powerful and perfect
why does he have completely CRAPTACULAR PR representation????
For what it is worth, Mark Twain agreed with him on the literary value of the Book of Mormon: http://www.truthandgrace.com/twainbom.htm
There are 1,300 references to the Bible in the works of Shakespeare alone.
So are the kids are going to study Tyndale’s Bible, the Geneva Bible or the Bishop’s Bible? Because the KJV wasn’t published until after Shakespeare had retired.
Well at least they’re finally admitting that the Bible is fiction.
It could be a good things. I say let ’em teach it. If retards actually READ THE THING they might realize how crappy a book it is.
it would be nice to use Biblical allusions like “on the road to Damascus” without getting blank looks*, but somehow i doubt that’s the actual intent here
literature is open to contextual, historical, authorial, and editorial criticism. again, somehow i doubt they meant to bring Higher Criticism into the classroom
Which Bible? There are variations of the Bible due to different translations or different interpretations. The King James Bible is the one most used by Protestant religions. (It was authorized by James I of England who was notorious for his homosexuality.) The Douay Bible was the first English translation of the Bible acceptable to Cathlolics. Just Google “Bible versions” and you’ll see that there is a great variety of the Bible and its translations.
One wonders which version they’ll use in this class.
This could backfire in our favor. After all, the Bible is to be used to teach LITERATURE. So, it can be used to teach such concepts as plot, character motivation, character development, etc. So we can examine Yhwh as a character in the OT who is vindictive, petty, etc. Compare that with Jesus as the earthly embodiment of Yhwh in the NT who (at times) teaches love, compassion, and forgiveness.
Once we get to Revelation According to John when can look back to Genesis and ask, “Did Yhwh set this whole torment thing up from the start?” Is that more like the OT Yhwh or the NT Yhwh/Jesus?
Of course before we even get started we must ask what kind of literary approach is appropriate? We don’t use the same standards for fiction as we do nonfiction. Do we start with a literalistic assumption (of course the “Bible-thumping dwarf from Pampa” will assent) or do we use a methodology appropriate for myths? Do we treat it like the Enuma Elis or Epic of Gilgamesh (from which the Bible heavily “borrows”) or treat it like Hugh Hefner’s memoirs (especially in Song of Solomon)?
* yes, i’ve had self-proclaimed Bible believers be utterly clueless about the phrase, either its origin or its meaning
They should make teaching the Documentary Hypothesis a required part of the course.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis
With him around, freedom of religion goes out the door. Religious freedom for only Christians, no religious freedom for others. What kind of America is this when one gets rights while the others gets none? What he propose isn’t right at all.
Can we use the LOLCat bible?
>upstarts like the Bhagavad Gita or the Torah
Uh, these two predate the Bible.
And, y’know, the Torah is the source for the first five or so books of the Old Testament.
Personally, I’d like to see one of the kids in any of these classes fight to have Michael Moorcock’s Behold the Man taught as part of the class. Sure, it’s upstarty, but it’s also literary.
In my own experience i’ve noticed a trend, a significantly higher number of atheists have read the bible than christians.
Back when I was forcibly christian, I didn’t read any more of it than I had to in sunday school, it took becoming (or realizing i was) an atheist to finally read the bible. I don’t really know why I suddenly had an urge to read it, maybe to affirm my doubts or just to learn (i’ve also read most of the Koran).
I’ve met many atheists who also have read the bible cover to cover, many more atheists than christians. It’s amazing when bible thumpers attempt to debate religion, and it’s quite apparent they don’t even know a little bit about the bible, only rhetoric.
In high school (some twenty-odd years ago) I took a bible as literature course. It only focused on the old testament and the great thing was that we all had to do a presentation of some sort. Mine was about the connection between the bible and UFOs. How a piller of cloud during the day and a piller of fire at night could be a reference to a spaceship. That the advanced ages of OT characters proved that they were the spawn of ETs and humans. That was actually a pretty fun class. I’m guessing my presentation wouldn’t fly in a Texas classroom.
my own experience of these holy books is that i finished the koran in its entirety. the bible i gave up on partway through genesis (i tried very hard, but was totally uninterested in all the tedious and irrelevant “begats”). of course i’d like to finish the bible one day, but i’ll have to be in a really good mood to do it.
Re Road to Damascus: I guess they haven’t read the reviews for En attendant Godot.
My late mother was fond of the phrase “like Moses at the Red Sea”.
We should be wary of quotes taken out of context. I’m not saying that the quote suggesting that “the Bible” as historical and literary value, while other religious texts do not, was taken out of context. It’s just that I don’t know, and I recognize that it isn’t just creationists that take words out of context.
Had he been pointing out the “the Bible” (Xian version) has especial historical and literary value for our culture, for instance, he’d be right.
But anyway, it’s absurd to single out “the Bible” even for that reason, since education is hardly about merely teaching “our culture.” Sacred Hindu texts might be great eye openers for people who know too little about anything outside of Abrahamic religion and the cultures associated with, and partly formed by, those religions.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
My kid is still years away from high school, and I doubt that they will still be able to have the class then, but I think at least there should be some sort of permission slip I could refuse to sign.
Amused, disgusted – tomato, tomahto…
Miles:
It sounds to me like you’re making the error of comparing disparate translations there, and attributing it to the text. If there was a KJV of the Torah it would doubtless contain the word servant; an Old Testamant by the makers of your unspecified translation of the Torah would doubtlessly say slave.
You have to remember that the KJV bible is quite old. It contains a great deal of 1604 England in it.
Austin does rock but it still has its own overbearing religious reminders on almost every corner. I think with any large (is Austin really “large”)city you should be able to find some bastion of rationalism nearby.
#11 Darth: I made it to Temple from Austin in about an hour last weekend, so hang in there, you’re not that far. Plus I noticed that you now have a BJ’s brew pub. I have to say that their beer is pretty good for a chain restaurant.
#12 Petey: Where do I go for good beer in Houston? (Local brew pubs?)
This elective class has all the makings of “Underwater Basket Weaving.” It’s a blow-off course, an easy A. Who fails “Bible?” Other than those who believe it’s real I mean. The first “F” will bring the first lawsuit of religious bias.
Living in Amarillo (the ‘mit’ in the ‘Gott mit uns’ bible belt buckle) and only sixty miles from Pampa’s Warren Chisum, I wondered when this became law, why the ACLU hasn’t filed suit. Admittedly, a suit shouldn’t and wouldn’t win based against the historical or literary importance of the bible, but the COURSE approved for inclusion is clearly
exclusive of most peer reviewed non-sectarian biblical scholars acknowledgment of the most basic and important historic and literary facts, such as: gross redactionism in the old and new testament; political uses of the biblical passages in world history – the Inquisition, or American history – the justification for slavery, the KKK, abortion policy, etc.; the relegation of women to second class status; on and on and on. All of which, are accepted scholarship directly pertaining and basic to the purported principles and goals of the course being taught.
Essentially, what I am saying, is that it seems easy to beat Chisum at his own game. If he wants to teach a basic course on the historic and literary significance of the Xian bible, I absolutely applaud that. Let those of us who ‘believe’ in the academic process make sure that the course that is taught conforms to those goals and principles.
I can’t think of a better way to teach critical thinking to those people raised in a doctrinal, dogmatic and unacademic acceptance of religious ‘authorities’ parsing of what is, indisputeably, the most influential text of Western Civilization.
This could be a good thing indeed. I didn’t stop believing in that crap until I started really studying it critically. Then the really hard-to-answer questions came out and the book basically proved itself wrong. So let them teach it, though I agree they should just call it a religion class and toss in the rest of the world’s texts.
Alex @ 29
I’ve read KJV and the standard catlick bible (New American?), and the Koran. But if you want a difficult read, go for the book of
moronmormon. It’s frickin impenetrable.For this kind of thing it should be treated just as LDS seminary is here in Utah. The class is held in a different building off campus from the school, usually across the street or something, and the class is not counted as any kind of credit towards graduation, not even elective.
What an asshat.
I volunteer to teach the Texas kiddies bible class. I further promise to make my class heavy on hell fire, blasphemy, sexual perversion and genocide. Torches, rope and pitchforks required. Can I get an amen!
I’m willing to bet that our Patricia can outquote and mortify Chisum with that biblical crap. Nothing like quoting your enemy with his own petard.
But the bible as literature? In the same vein as the those abominable supermarket tabloids, trashy novels, and all others relegated to the not-worth reading? My views on the bible are well known, and of it considered as literature, I’ll spare you my own personal opinion in literature meant only to be sarcastic.
Uh, “sarcasm”, look it up, learn to recognize it.
The Christian bible has had a greater impact on English language literature than any other religious text. One would be hard pressed to argue otherwise.
Still, it’s not like other religious texts have had NO impact, and certainly, there’s no reason why they can’t be treated as literature just as much as Christian texts can be.
But these points are purely academic. A mandatory bible class has little to nothing to do with literature, and everything to do with cultural control. One is hard pressed to argue otherwise.
WHAT! NO BOOK OF MORMON?!?! There ought to be a class entitled “How Not to Write Fiction” with the BoM as a course requirement. Malaclypse, #15 above, is right on target.
Some odd choices for subjects (my emboldening, of course)
Among the subjects that must now be taught in Texas are English, math, science, social students, health, physical education, fine arts, economics, technology and “religious literature, including the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) and New Testament.”
If the schools can pick whatever version of the bible they want, I’d vote for the Skeptic’s Annotated Bible. The online version also has links to the Block Bible, which uses Legos to illustrate scenes from the bible. The part about Lot’s daughters will make you wet your pants.
That seems wide open to an establishment clause legal challenge, if somebody in Texas wants to take a punt at it.
#23: Teach the controversy!!
So you could argue it has a legitimate connection even to Western literature and history.
you could, but they’d hate you for it in Texas, and probably try to get you fired…and probably succeed
Honestly, the Koran and Bhagavad Gita are written way better than the Christian Bible. Frankly, it’s not a very good book.
I’m not sure the WingNutDaily’s description of the situation is entirely accurate.
So does the first class start with… “So what were the tribes thinking when the made up the stories of the bible? What was their inspiration? What were they trying to accomplish?”
You can teach the Bible in public schools in Texas, but a Creationist college can’t grant degrees in Texas. One of the more stranger things I have ever seen. I had to do a double take on this post…
There are two many different viewpoints about the Bible which will cause problems with presenting the correct viewpoint. I can understand why to a certain degree. When I went to public schools, many from the religious schools who transferred to my school were 2 years ahead in English, as well as other studies. Still, I don’t believe teaching the Bible in government schools is right. It should be left up to the private schools.
Don’t be silly. To most if not all Christians, the only correct viewpoint of the Bible is the one each of them currently holds.
~30,000 sects of Christianity, and not one of them is wrong except the other 29,999. It’s a Festivus miracle!
Well, we read parts of the Bhagavad Gita when I studied Sanskrit.
Its just so typically provincial. Life imitates Art.
Quote from the news Article:
Quote from the Blues Brothers:
Will they teach all the contradictions, absurdities, cruelties, inaccuracies, and dirty bits? Actually, I wouldn’t mind taking a course like that.
bartkid @26,
And, y’know, the Torah is the source for the first five or so books of the Old Testament
The Torah isn’t merely the source, it is the first five books of what Christians call the OT and Jews refer to as TaNaKh (an acronym, in Hebrew, for “Torah, Prophets, Writings”). The Hebrew bible is essentially the same as the Christian OT (protestant version; the catholics have added a few extra books that neither Jews nor protestants accept), though the order of the individual books is different.
Good, I hope they analyze the snot out of the story of Abraham and Isaac.
Every year I attend the High Holiday services, every year I hear the horror story of the (near) sacrifice, and every year it is sermonized or discussed. And in all that time, I’ve yet to hear anybody arrive at a satisfactory explanation for the whole mess; at worst, it’s a mentally abusive relationship between Abraham and God — at best, it’s a high-stakes game of Chicken.
How about. “What are John’s motives for showing Thomas in this way?”.
That’s a nice little bit of early internecine bullshitting
My class will include some ‘hands on’ work, ass riding, and field trips. Starting off in Africa, then Egypt… Rome, Spain, Salem, Jerusalem. Oh boy will we learn the bible!
For our christmas play we’ll crucify ol’ Big Bad Bill.
I’m still working on the list of guest speakers… ;)
Actually, I would have to give limited support to this guy’s point.
If the class is about ENGLISH literature then only the Bible( King James) is relevant. You don’t have to know Quran/Gita to understand most English-language allusions.
If you were studying Arabic/Sanskrit it would be a totally different case.
Who teaches these courses? Don’t teachers have to have, like, qualifications or something? Go to teacher college?
Study of the xtian bible as literature may have unintended consequences. In this context it becomes easier for teachers and students to ask about the original texts and their fate; about the copies and the reliability of those very early ‘copy machines’. How about the scribes, their training and motivations? And the re-formulations, re-packagings and translations of manuscripts?
What will studying the bible as literature do to reading the bible as divine revelation, when students are free to discuss, eg that there are “more differences among our manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament”?
(Quoting Bart Ehrman)
I have an uncle and a few cousins that live in Pampa, TX. It is the most horrific, desolate place on the face of the planet. It’s not surprising that this fundie would live there since it so resembles Afghanistan. Make no mistake, there is no real desire for a “literature” class on the bible. They know that in practice at the local level, most of these classes will be taught by a Christian in the same manner that a Sunday School bible class would be taught. I would be shocked if at least several schools don’t get served a semester or so in.
It’s time to kick Texas out of the Union.
Sarcastro (#16):
Besides that, when somebody tries to justify Bible study by using the works of a man who wrote poetry to seduce other men. . . I have to smile.
If it’s an elective, does the school get punished if no one takes the class? Will God smite the building? (I just wanted to use “smite” in a sentence.)
My high school Comparative Religion course was taught by an atheist. I wonder if any Pampans would mind if an atheist taught this course.
I have to agree that it silly to require that all schools be required to offer an elective course on the Bible. However, I am not sure why anyone here would be upset about that. Most Christians haven’t read the Bible and if they had they might have some doubts about how inspired it is. So it might work to your advantage.
Of course PZ wants them to teach the Koran, he *never* criticizes islam, noooooooooooo. No one wants to offend Islam, noooooooo.
they’re all lunatics (but their books have a lot of historical and literary merit). The Koran is, I understand, quite a beautiful poetic read in the original. In Hinglish it just sounds like any other crazy tract from the crazies.
This is just a layman’s interpretation, but from the AG’s statement:
Thus is is perfectly acceptable for a Texas school to fulfill the requirement by, for example, discussing biblical literary references in an English course. Say, a course on Shakespeare.
Just to beat this horse a little more, the AG’s statement goes on to say:
The “15 student” thing mentioned in the news is a requirement for when currently authorized courses must be offered. It does not require the invention of any new courses. Thus, if you teach literary references in a Shakespeare class, you have to offer that Shakespeare class in any semester where 15 or more students want to take it. You don’t have to create a new course just because 15 students want one.
AG’s statement is at: http://www.oag.state.tx.us/opinions/opinions/50abbott/op/2008/htm/ga-0657.htm
I would love to come to Austin, but, sadly, I can’t afford it. The cost of living is much lower here in East Texas; so, I stay here because I can live quite nicely on my pension. If I could get a 1250 square foot brick house in Austin for about $125,000 I’d really consider it.
The Texas Attorney General writes,
Also,
There are 1,300 references to the Bible in the works of Shakespeare alone.
Makes me wonder if any of the schools even have the kids reading Shakespeare. I never did in high school.
Raynfala #60
It’s because of bits like Abraham and Isaac that I realized the Torah/OT god has the maturity of a spoiled five year old. Omniscience, omnipotence, and various other omnis do not a stable deity make.
which version of the bible you ask?
the only one that’s valid. the one that god wrote personally in english for the white people….. because jesus was white…. and so is god.
Makes me wonder if any of the schools even have the kids reading Shakespeare. I never did in high school.
My god man, what kind of a butt-fuck of a high school did you go to?
I am a Hindu and I am glad that the Gita is not prescribed reading for anything at the grade/high school level. It is not possible to structure Hinduism using a Christian framework. So the Gita is not the Hindu counterpart of the Bible, Koran or Torah. The Gita whatever some may say is not a revealed text and there is already a plethora of fanciful “scholarly” interpretations of it (it is a response to Buddhism, it is the documentary basis of the caste system etc.) Schools don’t have the expertise to teach such a complex text, and following how Hindus like me were brought up, where I got to learn something about it only when I was in my 20s, I don’t want any child to have to study it. And the literary merit of the Gita can be appreciated only in Sanskrit and there isn’t an English version I would recommend. That makes it an even less suitable candidate for schools.
Why does it have to be Texas? Always?
The only time I made anything like a close study of parts of the Bible was when I took Ancient Greek in college. Our second quarter was spent on the Third Epistle of John, and it was in that study that I learned that the fundamental theological import of a particular passage could be radically changed depending on how one translated a particular, very small, word.
But, uh, obviously, every single translator of the Bible has been equally inspired divinely, so, uh, no problem, right?
Is anyone truly suprised? I’m not shocked in any sense of the word.
I think I have to go and find some sand to sink my head into in order to find some sanity.
On a side note, perhaps a course in religious literary reading may be enlightening and eye opening for many as long as it contained elements from all world religions. People may find some enlightenment that way and wake the F up.
That’s one of the things I took away from several religious studies classes in University. I took them because I’d heard they were interesting electives from a good friend and it fit my schedule. I ended up taking quite a few of them. The cross section of all the different views ended up affirming my agnostic/atheist/humanist point of view. The only think I hated was listening to all the bible thumpers constantly badgering the profs with stupid questions and arguing with everything they didn’t agree with. The positive thing for me was that they were in the vast minority. Most seemed to take some good away from the courses. The second year classes were mostly devoid of highly outspoken religious types. One of my muslim friends told me that they were told by family and clergy that they were not to take any religious study coursed specifically out of fear they would doubt their faith become agnostic.
The problem with the bible as I see it is that it isn’t a “book” but “books” with many authors. And these authors it seems didn’t like each other enough to sit down and discuss things in committee, and the editor was incompetent. . . .
On the other hand, the more stories I keep hearing from atheists about how they started losing the faith of their indoctrination after really seriously reading their holy texts, the more I’m convinced that the more children are encouraged to read their bibles, the more atheists there will be.
Warren Chisum of Pampa has a reputation here in Texas for being a right-wing extremist among right-wing extremists, notorious for his loud opposition to sex ed, homosexuality, and environmental legislation. Unfortunately, that makes him somewhat popular in his area of the state.
Make that the FIRST Epistle of John.
(Honk).
There are high schools in English speaking parts of the world where Shakespear isn’t taught? Really? Or did you just mean you didn’t bother to read it? I don’t blame you if that’s the case. Plays aren’t really meant for reading. That’s why they’re plays.
@ Amphiox #83,
There were at least 5 editors of the bible that we know, at different points in history, all of which makes it all the more skewed.
I agree with you completely, the more that really read it, the more doubt there will be.
I am appalled that only the Christian Bible will be taught as “literature.” What of the Poetic Edda? The tales of Odin, and Hunin and Mugin and Loki and the Twilight of the Gods are surely worthy of the respect of high school students, by Thor’s hammer.
And if we can’t have these then I agree we should go for Michael Moorcock at least.
#63, Steve, I don’t think you can count the KJV translation of the bible as English literature since it’s a translation from Greek.
Shakespeare, now, that counts.
What really irks me is the State Board of Education refusing to come up with any guidelines whatsoever for local districts to follow…which means even a school district seeking to do an evenhanded job could still screw up and run afoul of the Constitution…but more likely some coach, or a history teacher will end up preaching in a sectarian way, then someone’s going to sue, and more taxpayer $$ is going to be blown on a court fight that could’ve been avoided if the SBOE had done it’s frickin’ job.
The most radical religion nuts have always resented/hated public schools/universal education and always will.
Since they’ve got a class about the bible, why not have a class about The Gospel of The Flying Spaghetti Monster? It has cultural significance. Or the Cthulu mythos, that has cultural significance too.
Back when I was a good Catholic in High School, I read the NT. I started on the OT, but damn, was that boring. Reading it didn’t make me a non-believer, I think I just let it slide through my mind with little resistance. I actually remember very little of it.
I think the previous posters here are right, though. Most Christians that I have met haven’t really read the thing, and have no idea of the history of how it got collected and translated for them. They hear the snippets that their preachers give them to “think” about and go on their way. I’d love to take a poll of people one hour after service to see how many of them remember what the readings were.
Teaching the bible as literature may sound like a good way to get kids to think about what it says, but I’m sure there will be no critical thinking allowed in class.
I’m not entirely thankful we did read Shakespeare — I mean, high-school English classes are basically the systematic murder of literature — but read the Bard we did. Romeo and Juliet in ninth grade, Julius Caesar in tenth, Macbeth and Hamlet in eleventh, and King Lear in twelfth, IIRC. I was in the “advanced English” track, the one which ended with AP English in senior year, so I might’ve gotten one more play than the proletariat in regular English, but I don’t know for sure.
I also had a very slightly crazy Art and Literature teacher in fourth grade (I went to private school for that year and the two after). He had decided that metalpoint and Measure for Measure were just what elementary school students needed to complete their day. Come to think of it, reading about the shenanigans of the hyper-moralistic Angelo might have been my first encounter with the idea of an unjust law.
You can see how well I turned out. . . .
Umm – IceFarmer #87, there were at least five authors of the Torah (the first five books of the OT), alone. The “authors” probably exceed 100 when you consider:
authors of each of the root books
compilers
redactors
translators
@Biopunk #91,
I think that the Gospel of the FSM wouldn’t be allowed because of the references to pirates, strippers, midgets and bias towards Asian/Italian cuisine. Too many good Christians would be offended. I think they’d prefer to read about their own attrocities and lustful activites while thumbing their noses at others.
But wait! Don’t jump!
Turns out that the law doesn’t require Bible studies after all.
The State Board of Educatidon (led by Education Kommissar Don “all you Hispanic literature buffs drop dead” McLeroy), showing all the spine of one of the Flying Spaghetti Monster’s noodly appendages, bailed out of providing guidelines for districts on how to keep such a course within the bounds of the U.S. Constitution. Districts are on a “hope you looked before you leaped” program.
But the State Attorney General actually helped out. He decided that the law doesn’t mean there must be a class in the Bible — rigorous academic studies in history or literature, which make appropriate mention of Christian scripture, will suffice.
In short, if a school offers AP U.S. history or AP world history, or English IV or AP English, the ground is covered.
So a district isn’t required to offer a Bible course, but if it does, it’s on its own defending it in federal court.
Dover bait, anyone?
I wrote about the AG’s decision earlier, here:
http://timpanogos.wordpress.com/2008/08/29/texas-ag-rules-bible-classes-not-required/
Is Warren Chisum actually a dwarf? Or is it simply a general contemptuous insult the six-poot-tall Molly Ivins would use for any relatively shorter guy?
rimpal, #80: Why does it have to be Texas? Always?
Texas is our laboratory where we measure how awful are the consequences of select bad policies.
If you have any bad policy ideas and want to know just how bad they really are, tell us; we’ll send ’em to the Texas legislature where they will be prioritized by awfullness and enacted.
(I offer my apologies to my Texan comrades.)
(But not sincerely.)
Jaketoadie in #39,
What part of Utah do you live in?
Come on, Texas is the birthplace of some of my favorite examples of absolute derangement. Like these guys, and who can forget these guys. Texas is far too weird to be much effected by something so mundane as bible study.
How is the law worded? Must the courses offered be PRO-bible? Why not offer a course about the bible in the same vein as a course about pollution or STDs?
I just checked. Texas still has a “F” grade for their public school science standards from the Fordham Institute. Also, if I remember correctly, half of the high schools in Texas don’t teach evolution at all. Meanwhile, the Texas theocrats are making sure every student has the opportunity to learn about the breathtaking stupidity and insanity in the Bible.
#74 bigjohn756: bigjohn, I can find you that house. Unless you want a roof to go with it. That’s extra. :)
One of my English classes in high school covered the bible briefly. It was done in a very careful, non-preaching, literary-source-only way. I didn’t mind it then, but I was still floating in a state of flux between indoctrination and personal belief (or lack of).
I don’t think the teacher presented it so carefully on her own, though. I think she was afraid of the science teacher in the next room who was an advocate against religion in the classroom.
This is sort of a funny turn-around for me. At a public school in FL (the same one Mr. Campbell teaches at), two of the original planned texts for an English class had to be dropped by the teacher. One was Native Son, which was just too traumatizing for our tiny innocent brains,* and the other was the Book of Job, which she had initially included in our segment on western mythology (to be taught alongside Edith Hamilton). She emphasized at the beginning of the year that “your own feelings aside, we’ll be addressing it as a part of the western literary tradition, and nothing else.” Perhaps some parents didn’t like the idea of the bible getting “lowered” to the status of literature. Or maybe an atheist objected (though to my knowledge I was the only one in the class), who knows?
*This lead to a great moment: “Apparently you guys aren’t mature enough to read this novel. Its ISBN is…”
Why does it have to be Texas? Always?
Hey, at least Pennsylvania is off the hook this time. :-D
Many years ago I actually read the Bible and as a work of literature it is sadly lacking. Lacking a good editor at least. I mean the lead characters get killed off in the first chapter before it descends into centuries of begetting followed by far too many action sequences which do nothing to advance the plot, the pacing was all off. I lost it when it started to concentrate on a poor carpenter who wanted to reform human rights! Seriously, pick one story and stick to it. As for the whole Revelations thing, it made the matrix III look like a work of genius. I´m not looking forward to the sequel.
My sister went to a private Christian high school for one year (long story, believe me I didn’t like it). Anyway, I was helping her with her math homework one day and found out that part of the it involved memorizing bible verses. Yes, you read that right, that was part of the MATH homework. The verses didn’t even have anything to do with math. There was no analysis of the passages or anything, just pure rote memorization.
Gotta say that year was detrimental to her education. She then decided to spend the last 2 years of her high school career at a US public school (yes I know there are some good public schools in the US, but this one wasn’t one of them). I wasn’t happy about that either. Reading her essays now and hearing her thought process I can see how much she was deprived. She probably wouldn’t have ended up a genius if she had attended a good high school, but she might be able to more than just memorize bible verses.
Poor America.
Back here in Germany we do a critical analysis of the Bible’s origin in the normal course on catholic/protestant religion, we talk about the contradictions and historical origins. These are, however, later washed away by some fancy apologetic arguments, but at least we are exposed to the existing criticism and if you don’t fall for the apologetic, you’re on your way to become an atheist.
Cheers,
Clemens
Just for the record, my four years of US high school never included Shakespeare either.
Oh wow, that’s surprising. In Australia, I did a Shakespeare play in each of my last 4 years of high school (years 9-12)
Year 9: The Merchant of Venice
Year 10: Macbeth
Year 11: Othello
Year 12: King Lear
This is a clear violation of the separation of church and state. This is forcing all schools to have a course that specifically favours one religion over all others and non religion. It may well be literature, but that doesn’t stop it also being specific religious material.
Let me be clear. The KJV is a great work of literature, even before we get into its origins, versions, and its history. All fascinating stuff. Unfortunately much of it is rated R – as are the many purnanas I am familiar with in Hindu tradition. Bowdlerized versions can be found in Buddhist stories. There is no point in handing out picture books with pious looking people. These things are about life, messy, brutish and nasty lives that people led back in the day. There are great lessons for us to learn what to avoid and keep clear of all religion, ideology, doctrine, and revelation – everyone of which outside the context of phenomena and experience is simply bogus. I am not that familiar with the Koran, but that too is taught very unimaginatively. Boys are expected to memorise starting from the age of ~5 and parrot it all their lives. Hardly the way to learn such an important pieve of history – not as in historical record which it obviously is not but what it indicates about the history of the time it was written in.
Sigh. For literary studies, reading the Bible is absolutely necessary (especially if you’re going to focus on medieval lit). But for the same reason, other religious texts must be read if you’re honestly trying to teach literature. Which would include finding the common themes and the conclusion that the Bible isn’t 100% unique…
Loons like this make me angry enough when they try to interfere with natural sciences, now they’re trying to misuse the humanities for their crap too. And here I was thinking my subject was relatively safe from them.
We read Shakespeare in High School and I thought it was terribly boring. It wasn’t until I got involved with a Shakespeare production company in college that I learned to really appreciate him. He should not be read, only performed. I think it takes a talented direction and performance to really bring out the true genius of Shakespeare’s work. Just reading it is awful. And by that I mean just reading his plays. I think the best way to teach would be combined classroom reading as preparation for performance. The most important thing is learning how to speak the lines with a natural rhythm instead of the stilted sing-song the untrained usually fall into.
(sorry to have gone off topic so, but I am still amazed by how my appreciation of Shakespeare changed so radically between reading and performance and I wasn’t even doing the performing, I was just stage crew)
And on the floor of that laboratory is a drain where all the toxic waste from those bad policy ideas goes, and that drain leads to a sewer, and that sewer empties into a river, and that river is called California.
You know, I was mad about this one at first, but now I’m seeing some real potential for some good old hair-pulling catfights down here in the Lone Star State. These folks always blame the atheists for their own sectarian battles, like they did with the high school football prayers (Catholics and Mormons and some Protestants filed that suit).
Mark my words: When an American Baptist has to take a class taught by a Southern Baptist, or a Methodist has to take a class from a Baptist teacher, that’s when the fur–and the lawsuits–will fly. And in the meantime, the little darlings will either learn sectarian hatred of the most virulent source and turn on each other, or they’ll see their Hebrew Fairy Tale for the twisted, violent hatefest that it is.
Somebody pass the popcorn!
PZ, I hear you have a recently empty room?
Care to rent it, or just let someone hide in it?
I have a few useful skills.
Get me out of this state!
How is it there are bible-thumping pygmies + dwarfs?
Homer isn’t literary?
I think any and all folk and fairy tales should qualify for this class.
As a senior attending a Texas high school, let me just say I’m very glad I’m going to be getting out of here soon.
Two summers ago the Texas pledge of allegiance was amended to add “one state under god”. I didn’t think something could surpass that in sheer stupidity and ignorance, but this has proven me quite wrong.
At #107 Feynmaniac wrote:
Reading her essays now and hearing her thought process I can see how much she was deprived. She probably wouldn’t have ended up a genius if she had attended a good high school,
Don’t give up hope.
I went to Catholic school for 9 years, then to a not-so-great high school. My 11th grade English teacher was a minister, and most of the year he spent class time practicing his upcoming sermons on us–that is, when he bothered coming to class at all. Yet I’d like to think I turned out OK.
Going to a good school doesn’t make you more likely to be a genius. You might end up better educated, but unlikely to make a big gain in IQ points.
My kids’ public high school English classes have always included works of Shakespeare. And at least some of the teachers do a terrific job teaching them. My younger son, the very reluctant reader, came home from school all excited about Romeo and Juliet, raving about what a great play it was. I wrote his teacher a thank-you note.
In one of the grades, the English curriculum included a study of mythology–including The Bible. As a result, my son announced that “it’s all bullshit” and that he was an atheist. He really couldn’t understand how any rational person could believe that the Bible was historically accurate or true.
If I were feeling optimistic, I’d like to see this as a great opportunity for more public dialogue about Daniel Dennett’s modest proposal:
Sure, Texas’s doing it wrong. But the court hearing for the inevitable (slam-dunk) lawsuit by a believer from a different denomination of religulosity will be an excellent forum to make that point.
In my own studies of literature, nearly every class I have taken involved something from the Bible. They also included the Quran, the Mahabharata, the Torah, ect. (not the Book of Mormon, though. But my wife is a recovering Mormon, so I’ve heard the stories.).
The ironic part is, during undergrad work, as is almost always the case, a great deal of the class would skip the homework and try to fake their way through to a C. So it turned out that in class discussions, I knew more about the biblical stories as the outspoken and unashamed atheist than the devoted Christians that literally carried a Bible everywhere!
Can we use the LOLCat bible?
Now, that’s a book with literary merit. I LOL’d dozens of times reading through that.
-jcr
Donovan,
I can relate.. Back in my teens, when I made a habit of arguing with christians in my high school, I found that I knew their mythology quite a bit better than they did. My dad mentioned at the time that there’s an old saying: “nobody knows his bible like an atheist.”
Incidentally, I do recommend reading Ramayana and Mahabharata. They are great works of literature, equal to if not better than the Odyssey and the Illiad. I read a pretty good condensation/translation of Ramayana when I was a kid living in Indonesia, and wanted to understand the stories behind the dance performances I was seeing. I didn’t get around to reading Mahabharata until many years later.
-jcr
She’s referring to his moral stature as a person who cares about others’ welfare, good health, liberty and good life.
Here’s an explanation that will make it clear (perhaps not safe for work, if you laugh out loud):
http://www.pandagon.net/2006/10/04/its-illegal-for-a-prick-to-touch-an-asshole-in-this-state/
Oops. Well, try this one, then:
http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/10/04/its-illegal-for-a-prick-to-touch-an-asshole-in-this-state/
As Homer Simpson said, God is my favourite fictional character.
It seems Chisums expert is a Marshall Hall @fixedearth.com. Look at it for a few minutes( be sure to visit in noncache mode) if you can stand it. I swear it is now impossible to do a parody of these morons.
I don’t have a problem teaching the Bible as literature. Whether it is a good book (as opposed to The Good Book) or not, it has influenced and is alluded to in a great many works of literature and knowledge of the Bible helps a great deal in understanding a lot of it.
However, passing a state law requiring public schools to have a Christian Bible as Literature class (even if it is an elective) screams of religious motivation. That it is Texas where it is happening only makes it that much more obvious. While you may not ordinarily have a problem lending your car to someone, you’d think twice about lending it to the guy you caught trying to steal it three times already.
Very many Christians are under the impression that the only possible reason anyone could have for not believing in Christianity is that they haven’t heard it. This law is a fairly obvious attempt to get kids exposed to the Bible with the hope that it will convert them while trying to keep it, at least nominally, constitutional.
Christians can be sneaky bastards when it comes to proselytizing and don’t seem to see anything wrong with it.
That is a distinct possibility.
They DO expect the school districts to foot the bill on this one. The legislation did not include funding for this class. And the Texas Freedom Network has already found violations in schools where this class has already been taught in the state.
The Texas Attorney General recently made a ruling on this, supposedly to clarify the law for educators. Both sides are claiming victory.
All I know is that this legislation is just another sugar-coated attempt to ram Christianity down the throats of citizens. Doing this in schools, to impressionable young people, is just disgusting to me.
Since the course in question is ELECTIVE, it seems a great compromise with the Religious Right. However, the bias and ignorance of the one promoting this law makes the credibility of it highly questionable. Yes, let’s make it inclusive to teach ALL religious texts in the same course!
@ Gregor #91,
I wrote about 5 EDITORS, not authors. Contributing authors would be great in number but there are 5 known major editors and probably more minor editors as well as many others with multiple roles in the writing of the scriptures.
I tutored someone on the Bible for English class where it was treated as just a literary work (I now live in CA. Back in TX I didn’t know anyone who studied it in their English classes, infused as most classes were with religion).
A Muslim associate of mine was also tutoring him in another subject, and was shocked to see him casually toss his copy of the Bible on the ground while waiting for his mother to pick him up. She couldn’t believe that someone could treat a holy book with such disrespect. I probably shouldn’t send her to Razib’s blog.
Or this blog, for that matter.
If this teaches about any Shakespeare play, it’s “Much Ado About Nothing”. You should never expect WND to ever tell the truth. The actual AG letter says almost the exact opposite of the Wingnut story. A couple of posters mentioned this already.
http://www.oag.state.tx.us/opinions/opinions/50abbott/op/2008/htm/ga-0657.htm
“Section 28.025(a) does not, however, mandate Board rules requiring that high schools offer a specific course or courses in the required enrichment curriculum. See Tex. Educ. Code Ann. § 28.025(a) (Vernon Supp. 2008).”
“This section (28) does not prohibit the board of trustees of a school district from offering an elective course based on the books of a religion other than Christianity.”
“Thus, the Legislature understood that section 28.011 as amended by the House Committee on Public Education would authorize, but not require a school district to offer an elective course on the Hebrew Scriptures, the New Testament, or a combined course.”
The law still opens the door to a lot of Separation violations, but does not require any specific class.
Anon @ #25
According to the Non-Prophets (and they’re in Austin, TX, so I expect them to be better informed about this than some random non-Texan like me), students can use any Bible they like. So presumably you can bring your Jefferson or LOLCat Bible.