Thomas Foley of Virginia is nuts. This is the delegate to the Republican National Convention who has called for increased security. Why? Because he has an irrational fear of us.
On Friday the Catholic League reported that Thomas E. Foley, a Virginia delegate to the Republican National Convention (RNC) in Minneapolis has asked that increased security be considered for the event in light of Myers’ threat to acquire and desecrate the Eucharist.
“I just felt security at the Republican National Convention ought to look at him and his followers,” Foley told CNA in a phone interview on Wednesday morning. He reported that he had not received an update about his request.
Voicing his concerns about Myers, Foley said: “What I think he has done, he’s loaded a cyberpistol and he’s cocked it and he’s left it on the table. He may have set something in motion that no one can stop. It was irresponsible, a hell of a thing to do.”
Foley explained that he thought Myers should not be able to incite such acts with “impunity,” saying that he was especially disturbed by the comments posted on Myers’ blog. He said it was “eye-opening” to read the people who supported Myers’ action. Even at his age of 63, Foley said, he had never “personally encountered such bigotry.”
He also objected to Myers’ recent description of Catholic League President Bill Donohue as “braying,” which Foley, a self-described Irish Catholic, claimed was “a great insult for the Irish.”
Foley said he believes Myers was telling his readers to acquire a consecrated Host at Mass, which Foley thought would result in disruptions.
“What’s he telling them to do? Consecrated Hosts are not just lying around,” he said to CNA, noting that the only other possible way to secure a Host would be to accost a priest, nun, or layman taking the Sacrament to the sick. Even E-bay, Foley emphasized, has prevented the sale of consecrated Hosts.
Wait, what? I’m armed with a cyberpistol? Is that what we atheist brigands use to rob trucks trundling down the tubes of the internet?
I had no idea that “braying” was especially insulting to the Irish. I’m sure it’s a word that is used with great frequency in reference to Bill Donohue, though. No ethnic slur was intended, since I was unaware of any association (and still am) — it’s really just intended to highlight Donohue’s personal attributes as an ass.
I’m baffled by the last paragraph, though. If the crackers aren’t just lying around, how come people are having such an easy time getting them? The people who’ve sent them to me haven’t mentioned having to disrupt anything. And if their availability is so limited, why is he calling for increased security at the RNC? Do Republicans get Christ Crackers on registration, or something?
This is precisely the kind of deranged hysteria we have to protest against, I’m afraid.
Wait, what? I’m armed with a cyberpistol?
You know, on the higher levels you can get an assault rifle, shotgun, grenade launcher, flamethrower, and BFG!
Reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNO6G4ApJQY
Guess you’re part of the internet hate machine now PZ.
Cyberpistol? Happiness is a warm gun.
OK i might be out of the loop so correct me if i am wrong,but isnt that particular convention going to have massive protests anyway?
“Even at his age of 63, Foley said, he had never personally encountered such bigotry.”
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you, a man who has lived in a cave for the past 63 years with his eyes closed and his fingers in his ears.
I already got my cyberpistol strapped to my cyberarm, bought a cyberbus cyberticket to Minneapolis, and got a Mohawk cyberhaircut. Watch out, cyberCatholic cyberRepublicans!
You’ve got followers?? Wowzers, Dr Myers!! Are all of ’em squids?
These Cathopublican folks are wacko…..
It’s true! Paul is the voice from the outer world! He is the Mahdi! Ya hya chouhada!
Lying for Jesus, yet again. They know their claims are disingenuously aggrandizing this situation but that’s the point! They can get away with it due to the flock swallowing all that is brayed.
So what is it about being insulted anyway? I mean they talk about it like it’s a deranged brutal crime. So your sensitivities have been insulted, get over it. The bigotry thing also cracks me up. An atheist thinks the religious world-view is whacko, therefore they’re bigots. A religionists world-view has “infidels” burn in hell forever and they’re not bigots?
A cyberpistol? That is about as likely to kill someone as cybersex is to getting me laid.
I, too, wonder what the hell all this has to do with the RNC.
But I hope they make a big stink about it. Fools.
PZ Myers: “This is precisely the kind of deranged hysteria we have to protest against, I’m afraid.”
This is known as projection.
So you’ve got some consecrated wafers, PZ. Did they come in bodybags?
My God, a cyberpistol. Spewing optically-encoded bits at hapless believers in magic.
Watch out Foley, you might be targeted with information. Which apparently is a good deal stronger than magic.
Fear the man with the information, Foley. Oh, that’s right, you already do.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Can you confirm that the communion wafers sent to you so far have been consecrated? My understanding is that the unconsecrated ones are pretty easy to get. You can order them over the web.
It would have been more impressive if he’d said something like “cybernuke”. “Cyberpistol” is just lame, like the default gun on Doom lame.
I think they have Jesits with the wine and cheese course.
Anyway, I’d like to point out what an excellent way this was to reveal how fucking insane everyone over there is.
Good luck at the convention, PZ’s Tentacular Army!
Why the hell is a catholic republican? evangelicals and catlicks used to hate each other! When did this union form?
YOu know the KKK from blazing saddles!
Ebay does not sell them?? What about Jesus on a Cheese Sandwich?
What about these????:
Ebay Wafers #1
Ebay Wafers #2
Ebay Wafers #3
Holy Cyberauctions Batman!
He’s an active “Republican” and therefore stupid, greedy, and consciouly dishonest. Metaphorically, fuck him until he drops dead of his own accord.
With all these big words flying back and forth, I wonder: Is it time to declare War on Rhetorics?
Needs more Cyberpope.
Even at his age of 63, Foley said, he had never “personally encountered such bigotry.”
He’s been in the Republican party for how long? Did he just stick his fingers in his ears every time Jesse Helms spoke?
Does anyone know of any Atheist groups organized or planning to protest (the legal sort, I promise to leave my cyberpistol at home) at the RNC? I’ve heard nothing yet from the Twin Cities or Minnesota atheists as yet.
I realize organizing atheists can be a bit like herding cats but there has gotta be someone with the gears already in motion. I’d rather spend time with like minded godless heathens then troll around with Greenpeace or those screechy PETA kids.
An atheist with a cracker is a powerful force.
This is getting way too craaaaazy. How come every almost freaking US American politician is crazy?
I read that and my first thought was “As if PZ would *want* to go”.
But then I realized that Foley was probably talking about protesters and not actual attendees and it made a little more sense.
… But then, after all the press about the Expelled screening, maybe he’s expecting you to be lurking in the shadows, waiting to pop out during a big speech raving about the cracker. Or perhaps (gasp) DESECRATING a cracker in the middle of the convention! Oh noes!
:)
Can you confirm that the communion wafers sent to you so far have been consecrated?
Please don’t start this one up again – I think there must have been at least 200 posts the last few days on the subject of how to tell (or not) a consecrated from a virgin cracker (is virgin the right term here?)
I have no idea why the term “braying” is especially insulting to the Irish, and I am, in fact, Irish.
Donohue however, is not Irish. To be Irish you need to have been born in Ireland. It’s sort of the rules. Donohue is overwhelmingly American, and in the worst possible way.
And it is still a freaking cracker.
I think Mr. Foley confused the word “bray” with “brogue”. The Irish of the world should be deeply offended by his comment.
“I just felt security at the Republican National Convention ought to look at him and his followers.”
Sounds like we just made the terrorist watch list. Terrorist Fist Jab(TM)!
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought most American Catholics polled Democrat? Why is he worried about the RNC, other than that it’s a three hour drive from Morris?
“I had no idea that “braying” was especially insulting to the Irish.”
The term “donkey” is used, mainly by Irish-Americans, as a derogatory term for recent immigrants from Ireland. An acquaintance of mine with a very Irish last name, once referred to a local tavern as a “donkey bar”. Of course, it had better beer and music than the “old man bar” he frequents. “Mick” is the term outsiders use to disparage Irish and Irish-Americans.
Foley’s fear-mongering gets at the heart of this whole rigmarole… It’s not an Atheist vs. Catholic controversy, but a Liberal vs. Conservative controversy. Donohue has never criticized Jack Chick, or the Evangelicals proselytizing to Catholic service academy cadets, his outrage at Hagee was tepid and short-lived. Donohue is more Republican than Catholic, and he’s fomenting a culture war in an attempt to dissuade Catholics from voting overwhelmingly Democratic this November.
And being a Repube, he is very concerned about the SIZE of your cyberpistol, whether you hold it to the left or right, whether it’s bigger than HIS cyberpistol, and of course where you holster it.
I know I said I wouldn’t comment futher, but…PZ you are just as nuts as he is. You are nuts for claiming that you are afraid of Catholic faux death threats or some kind of inquisition. Now that’s “deranged hysteria” and “irrational fear.” When you see the similar things from the other side you think they’re nuts. Pot calls kettle black. Frankly I think the GOP does have cause for concern.
What is really nuts is that you, and your allies, believe it’s okay to disrupt worship services to protest. This whole mess is the result of your ego, immaturity, and lack of professionalism. Nothing good has come of this and nothing will. It will only increase the hatred that bigots like you thrive on. Those who have stolen consecrated hosts have committed a federal offense, as I pointed out before. Also they may have violated the laws of their State. I hope they are prosecuted, but I doubt they will fess up to the authorities.
I suspect your university is quite displeased. Others will be later when your actions are used by some to justify harassing homosexuals, feminists, or other protected groups. Even atheist groups may find themselves on the receiving end. You are setting the precedent. Someone mentioned the KKK. PZ you are the atheist version of the KKK. I don’t see any difference between their ignorant bigotry and yours. Cheers, Fr. J
To be Irish you need to have been born in Ireland.
Brian … I can categorically state that that is not how it works in the U.S. and it seems odd to those of us from Europe.
Many U.S. born-and-bred citizens take pride (and rightly so, I guess) in telling you that they are Irish, or English, or German, Italian, Portuguese etc. and they really, honestly mean it. They are of course talking about their ancestry – so if Donahue has any recent Irish ancestry (likely with that surname) I have no doubt he (or others for him) would state that he is Irish. It just seems to work that way!
“Sounds like we just made the terrorist watch list. Terrorist Fist Jab(TM)!”
So I should take the “PZ is my co-pilot” and “My boss is an atheist biologist” stickers off my car before heading near any government buildings? :P
Can you confirm that the communion wafers sent to you so far have been consecrated?
Well, duh, it tastes like Jesus!
And we’re not “followers”, we’re “minions”. Jeez, can’t the press get anything straight?
I thought you referred to Donohue as “braying” because he is an ass. So why did Thomas E. Foley consider it a special ethnic slur aimed at the Irish? In all charity, we should consider the possibility that Foley was too drunk to think clearly.
“What I think he has done, he’s loaded a cyberpistol and he’s cocked it and he’s left it on the table.
Sounds like someone thinks with far too much phallic imagery to me.
BMcP, who is Irish.
Well, he is a Republican. You just know his definition of “bigotry” will be different from that of normal people.
Ah, Thomas Foley and Bill Donohue, a pair of undescended testicles on the groin of civilization.
–Traf E. Traf
Automotive Mastermind
Be aware you may be getting not just plain old unconsecrated crackers, but plain old unconsecrated _Episcopalian_ crackers (and they don’t ever transubstantiate, you know).
When I was an altar boy, the parish priest always ordered the Episcopalian church suppliers’ crackers because they were fresher and cheaper, we being in a Southern “missionary” church area.
No complaints about being brought up Catholic there, it was the only integrated school system in the state at the time; and to their credit, the Catholics went out and marched with robes and crucifix on the sidewalk each year as the annual city’s KKK parade marched down the main street past the church.
It was another country.
Just sayin’ there’s no difficulty at all getting those little round flatbreads, anybody can buy them who sends the payment to the church supplies place. It’s what’s done to them later that makes whatever difference you believe in.
You may just have crackers.
Come to think of it, it still is.
PZ, you should do something really horrible to a bunch of crackers, some “consecrated”, some not, (e.g., shoot ’em up with your cyberpistol…) and then demand that someone prove which are which.
Got a cyber-pistol in your computer? Or is it just glad to see me?
Correction here. Interesting nonetheless. Ebay stopped at some point selling consecrated wafers due to catholics complaining about it. However, Ebay didn’t believe there was anything wrong or offensive with it.
http://www.michnews.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/202/8083
However, there are 997 items for sale which come around with the search for “blessed” (240 of which most are catholic in nature). While shopping around I found that there are medals with representations of the eucharist and even antique religious books. Some really interesting objects of much higher value than a blessed eucharyst imo.
To be honest when I heard the word cyberpistol, my mind superimposed PZ’s head on Rambo’s and then it cut to a little montage of him shooting in the wild jungles of the internet.
Did this happen to anyone else?
CYBERPISTOL!
No more of merely clicking people in the eye, go for the gusto with the manly CYBERPISTOL!
Be the envy of every 11-year-old on your block, with the newest in cock-wagging inventions! CYBERPISTOL!
No home is safe with CYBERPISTOL!
No home is safe without CYBERPISTOL!
Your wife will love you again with CYBERPISTOL!
20% less bad things when you use CYBERPISTOL!
[zzz]
The dim bulbs have found solace in the internet, because it validates their existence: there are other people just as dumb as them.
“When did ignorance become a point of view?” may have to become my new national anthem.
“cock punch” just popped into my head, and I think it’s because that’s what this Thomas Foley needs- delivered by a bratty kid, maybe one of his own.
“If the crackers aren’t just lying around, how come people are having such an easy time getting them? The people who’ve sent them to me haven’t mentioned having to disrupt anything.”
As I’m sure PZ knows, to get a consecrated host, all you have to do is go to any Catholic Church during Mass, wait until communion, then walk up in the procession, and when the priest or eucharistic minister holds up the host and says “The Body of Christ” say “Amen” (that is — say “yes, that’s what it is”). Then the priest or minister puts it in your hand. In a large enough Church, with a lot of people receiving communion, if you don’t immediately put the wafer in your mouth you probably won’t be noticed and no disruption will take place. Of course in all this there is the understanding that you are a Catholic, have come to the Church with the intention of consuming the Host, and so on, and by processing in the line and saying “Amen” you are agreeing to this, implicitly. But yes, it’s easy to get consecrated hosts this way if you’re willing to be, shall we say, somewhat duplicitous, and a bad guest to boot. But never mind those niceties — it’s all fun between friends, isn’t it?
On the other hand, it is also possible to steal them outright:
http://www.caller.com/news/2008/jul/15/eucharist-taken-cathedral-tabernacle/
If you should receive any hosts from Corpus Christi, TX or environs (yes, that’s right, Corpus Christi) you might be receiving stolen goods.
Oh, for god’s sake, you can get those silly wafers anywhere. Do they get delivered by armored trucks now?
http://www.kaufers.com/productcart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=108
Take it, take the damn cake. That’s just…
I summon Truth Machine to deal with this stoopid…I can’t even make fun of it it’s so burningly stoopid.
Every time someone tried to claim that criticizing ideas is bigotry, we have to fight back and continually explain that it can never be bigotry to criticize ideas.
To claim that it is cheapens the experience of victims of true bigotry, and frankly I don’t think these people are doing this by accident. I think it’s a calculated move.
In order to receive a host, one must present oneself for Holy Communion. The only people who are supposed to do that are Catholics in a state of grace, i.e., not conscious of grave sin, and they are supposed to immediately consume the host, not keep it. These rules are well known. Those taking the host with the intention of desecrating it are engaged in fraud and theft.
You don’t have to “accost” anybody to get one of the crackers. Just go to mass and hold out your hand…
“Wait, what? I’m armed with a cyberpistol? Is that what we atheist brigands use to rob trucks trundling down the tubes of the internet?”
Hahhahahahahha,,
Oh, Yeah, my name is Paddy Sean and I have no idea how what you said was supposed to be insulting to the irish.
Because at this point, it seems to be a requirement for being elected as a Republican. You know they’re in trouble when the only ones who sound semi-connected to reality are Newt Gingrich and Pat Buchanan.
PZ, since you can’t really be sure if your crackers are consecrated or if they are stolen you should mix in some known unconsecrated crackers and then ask Bill Donohue to identify the consecrated crackers that may have been involved in any crimes. Show him the pictures here on your blog. If he can identify the consecrated crackers he can take them and return them to the churches they came from, but if he insists any of the known unconsecrated control crackers are consecrated and/or stolen he looses his cracker taking opportunity.
Also, when you do decide to abuse a consecrated cracker, it might be best to get the “minister of Life” church guy (see first video on my blog post here) to consecrate a cracker you bought so no crime is involved.
Be safe. You may have nothing to fear from crackers, but you might have a lot to fear from loonies with lawyers.
Project much, Mr. Foley?
A threat to do unspeakable things to a cracker: oh, noes, we gotta have increased security at the Godbots, Oilmen & Plutocrats convention.
Death threats against PZ Myers: yawn.
Sure got yer priorities straight there, fucknuts.
Braying:
merican Heritage Dictionary
bray 1 Audio Help (brā) Pronunciation Key
v. brayed, bray·ing, brays
v. intr.
1. To utter the loud, harsh cry of a donkey.
2. To sound loudly and harshly: The foghorn brayed all night.
v. tr.
To emit (an utterance or a sound) loudly and harshly.
n.
1. The loud, harsh cry of a donkey.
2. A sound resembling that of a donkey: “an endless bray of pointless jocosity” (Louis Auchincloss).
Is a cyberpistol a way to compensate for a small e-penis?
Sorry, I had to say it.
@ Fr.J #37 –
I hate to feed the trolls… but I do have a question for you.
How, exactly, does one tell the difference between “Catholic faux death threats” and real Catholic (or non Catholic) death threats? Are you saying that any death threat made by a Catholic is fake? REALLY? ‘Cause I’m pretty sure I can find more than a few instances of Catholics who followed through on death threats should I care to look.
A death threat is a death threat. Period. Unless these threats said at the end of them “Hey, just kidding! Im’ really just a big ass!” they are LEGITIMATE threats. A threat doesn’t have to be acted upon for it to be a threat – in fact once it is acted upon it’s called murder or attempted murder. Get it?
He also objected to Myers’ recent description of Catholic League President Bill Donohue as “braying,” which Foley, a self-described Irish Catholic, claimed was “a great insult for the Irish.”
A great insult for the Irish? Well, I’m glad you approve, Mr. Foley.
What’s he telling them to do? Consecrated Hosts are not just lying around
Yea, I mean… it’s not like they’re just handing them out to anyone who walks up or anything, right? Right?
Clearly, we’ll have no choice but to use our cyber pistols to demand them. What would that even entail? E-mailing the word “bang” to someone you don’t like?
He also objected to Myers’ recent description of Catholic League President Bill Donohue as “braying,” which Foley, a self-described Irish Catholic, claimed was “a great insult for the Irish.”
It was irresponsible
I object to his description of Myers as “irresponsible” because, as a self-described white male, I find it’s a great insult to Caucasians.
Wait… why can everyone else get away with that?
“Fraud and theft”? My goodness! Let’s check the law books. Oops! Not there. In the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Well, the conditions for receiving communion are there, but nothing about fraud and theft. You know, it looks like it’s a sin and not a crime. No need to call 9-1-1 after all.
Just for the sake of injecting irony into the discussion:
http://www.kobrascorner.com/didyoumean-cyberpistol.png
(I don’t feel like implementing the workaround right now.)
@5
Don’t leave out the essential running around in circles and shouting “la la la la la” at the top of this voice. If he doesn’t do these vital things there’s a tiny chance that something like outside information may leak in.
Baffling.
One would think that, as a Republican, Mr. Foley would be very supportive of a cybergun. After all, isn’t the NRA a major contributer to the Republican Party?
The whole thing reminds me of an old joke – If we get electricity from electrons, do we get morality from morons?
No, no, you misunderstand. Insulting the Catholic faith is especially insulting to the Irish, because that faith is part of the Irish ethnic identity (as opposed to the heretic Englishmen), as it is of the Polish (as opposed to the heretic Germans and Russians) and the Croat ethnic identities (as opposed to the heretic Serbians and Bosnian Muslims), as Orthodoxy is part of the Russian, Greek and Serbian ethnic identities (as opposed to heretic Croats and Poles, heathen Bosnian Muslims, Turks, Tatars, and so on), and as Islam is part of the Bosnian Muslim ethnic identity (created by the communist dictator Tito in the 1950s or thereabouts) (as opposed to Croats and Serbs).
Religion tends to lead to the most violence where it is regarded as one, or even the only, distinguishing quality of ethnic identity. In the absence of violence, you get ridiculous statements like the one you are replying to here.
Nobody did that, especially not Webster Cook, who is himself a devout Catholic and wanted to show the host to a friend who, in his words, “was curious about the Catholic faith”.
How many thousands of comments did you simply skip in the last few days?
Wake me up, moron, when PZ starts killing people.
“In order to receive a host, one must present oneself for Holy Communion. The only people who are supposed to do that are Catholics in a state of grace, i.e., not conscious of grave sin, and they are supposed to immediately consume the host, not keep it. These rules are well known. Those taking the host with the intention of desecrating it are engaged in fraud and theft.”
Those that consume the host also aren’t suppose to eat or drink for one hour afterwards. Also, words don’t mean whatever you want them to mean.
Fr. J
PLEASE tell my it is a FEDERAL offense to take a consecrated cracker? Pleasepleaseplease!!!!! That may be the funniest thing I’ve ever heard!!!
Also, as an aside, if I were to be Catholic and want to partake of these awful crackers but can’t since I have Celiac disease, how does the church let me stay in the club? Do they make gluten free jeebus crackers? mmmmmmmmm….federally offensive gluten free christ crackers……
I phoned his office a few days ago when I first read this and talked to Foley on the phone.
He is just as much a fool as you would expect telling me that he had reason to fear disruption from atheists. When I told him about posted threats to PZ and asked where were the threats from atheists, he hung up.
@37
Hey, when did PZ disrupt any service? It never happen. It makes no sense that just because someone disagrees, and decided to make his option public, makes them a bigot. We are all tolerant of you wackos out there. Just because you tolerate something doesn’t mean you have to like or agree with it. You can be tolerant of a crying baby on a plane but it can still piss you off (South Park line rip off).
It should say “Fr J PLEASE tell me why it is….”
PZ, you’re no better that Donahue if you carry out your desecration challenge.
re: Tom Piatak
Are these legal rules? Is it against the law to accept the host in Mass? Or is that just a Church rule that is enforceable by an eternity in Hell?
I’d hate to go to jail, you see.
Cyberpistol??? If you are going to possess imaginary weapons why not go in big? Cybernukes would be a good start.
Real cybers carry cyber rayguns anyway. Which will work well until you meet a Jedi Knight with a cyber lightsaber.
Not too familar with Foley. Is he always this stupid?
I want to state that I disagree with what PZ is doing with respect to the whole cracker business.
Requesting that consecrated hosts be taken out of churches (the only way to get them) by people who normally wouldn’t wipe manure of their shoes on a temple doormat, in order to discomfit Catholics, most of whom aren’t doctrinaire and find the whole business embarrasing, and show support for a student who seems to have misappropriated a host out of sheer daftness, looks to me like the sort of bloviating we accuse believers of daily.
Most times I’m totally with PZ. Not this time.
However, I need to point out to Mr. Foley that if they tighten security too much, the prostitutes may not make it in. Or perhaps the Republicans can just issue them badges this time?
I once read somewhere that hookers can’t be bothered with the DNC because “they just screw each other,” whereas Republicans wanted really dirty stuff, all on the down-really-low.
A “cyberpistol” on the “tubes” of “the internets”. Why do Republicans have absolutely no idea how the internet works?
Actually I recall another Republican named Foley who managed to his the internet quite effectively.
P.S. Cyberpistol would be a kick ass name for a band
Even at his age of 63, Foley said, he had never “personally encountered such bigotry.”
His lack of personal experience with bigotry would be because Mr. Foley is rich, white, male, and a christian. Well, his lack of experience of being on the receiving end, at any rate.
For him to be quailing in terror at the mere possibility of someone thinking him to be a kook is quite simply pathetic.
Don’t hold your breath on that.
Fr. J (#37), you are officially completely off your rocker.
The KKK? Really? You don’t see “ANY difference” between PZ and the Ku Klux Klan? Threatening a processed food product (and a nasty one at that, as I can attest from an earlier and unfortunate period in my life) is the functional equivalent of arson, rape and murder?
Only someone without even a pathetic excuse for a moral compass could contemplate comparing the two. Now I just wonder if you are a Catholic priest because you are deranged or deranged because you are a priest.
At this beginning of this whole thing, I thought PZ was, frankly, a jackass for making the threat, and said so. But the longer this goes on the more I see his point. The foul-minded Defenders of the Faith who have come crawling out of the woodwork are a disgrace to all people who attempt to be peaceful and reasonable, and their behavior leaves me with no ammunition left to argue that we should respect their inanities.
Fuck them, and fuck you, Fr. J.
Oh no, PZ is a Cyberman. Beware of curly haired men with long multicoloured scarves.
I really don’t care about any kind of apparent problem between you and this other person Mr. Foley, my only concern is the fact that you have something that is simply put the center and heart of the catholic church, and respectively hope you return them un-harmed to the closest Roman Catholic Church, these crackers as you put them mean so very much to allot of people and I would hate to see this kind of treatment be broadcasted onto the internet to prove some theory or point…Thank You
PZ Myers, the level 20 Cyberpunk. Maxed out intelligence, charisma and wisdom. Weapon: Cyberpistol
lol, this is getting quite funny. It just shows how much the church and it’s followers want to revert to the 14th century when it could mandate conformity through fear. I guess any institution that has lost it’s power and relevance occasionally wants to flex it’s muscle to see whether it still can.
“I thought you referred to Donohue as “braying” because he is an ass.”
Probably, but have you ever heard him speak? Ah, never mind, I guess the example I’m going on is that link someone made to his appearance on Hardball with Christopher Hitchens. I can’t fucking stand cable news because everyone seems to think they have to yell at me. I’m sitting right here, feet away from the TV with its amplified sound system. Hitch came off well in that interview simply because he was the only person in the room who was speaking in a normal voice.
I keep wondering if Donowhore and Foley are covertly being paid by evangelical protestants to do their level best to make Catholicism look ridiculous.
If so, uh, nice job?
Re: braying
The term “donkey” was historically used by the English to disparage the Irish I believe, as the Irish were/are perceived to have a streak of stubbornness, or so I was led to believe growing up (while I’m Canadian by birth, I have Irish ancestry and citizenship).
If you go to the racial slur database, there is an entry there. And no, I did not know there was such a thing as the racial slur database until I googled it.
And the connection to the slur never crossed my mind when I read PZ’s comments. Frankly, our high rate of theopathy is far more hurtful to me then any slur would be.
Instructions:
1) Go to mass one Sunday and observe. You want a Church that hands you the wafer, not one that places it on your tongue.
2) Stand in line and take the Eucharist when it is given to you. Go ahead and eat it. But remember what type it is.
3) Go to a handy online communion wafer dealer and buy a box of the exact same wafer. While waiting for delivery, brush up on your slight-of-hand skills.
4) Attend Mass again, with an unblessed wafer tucked away. When you accept the Eucharist, switch it with the unblessed wafer.
5) Eat the unblessed wafer and go back to your seat. Don’t create a stir. As you leave, tell the priest you enjoyed the sermon.
6) Take your blessed cracker home.
7) …
8) PROFIT!
Fr J wrote:
The KKK, as we all should know, is a proudly Christian organisation – and all their bigotry comes straight from the bible. So they’re far closer to your mindset than PZ’s, Fr. J.
Googling braying irish or bray irish brings up no enlightening results. The only connections I can see are that Bray is a town in County Wicklow, and that the word ‘bray’ apparently derives partly from the Old Irish word braigid, “he breaks wind”. Which possibly makes it an even more appropriate term for anything Donohue says.
Wonder if SuperCatholic Man was as upset by the boyrapist priests. Attended many services conducted by laypeople over the past 50 years as the priests had to be ‘transferred’. Since I lived in 42 addresses during this time, this was a LOT of buggering pervs. I would infer that SuperCatholic Man, along with the rest of the Good Catholic Flock, had more than an inkling of the problem.
But no, he is upset that an atheist dares to speak his mind. I think I’ll cut and paste a First Amendment to send over the tubes.
Cyberpistol. What a noob!
The use of the word “braying” is offensive to Irish Catholics? Excuse me, but WTF? Me thinks this doofus thought he was asked one thing and replied to that, instead of what he really was asked. “Never personally encountered such bigotry”? Talk about low standards. For someone who grew up in the 40s and 50s, and was in his 20s during the civil rights movement, he’s never encountered “such bigotry” as what he’s seen here. RIGHT. We’re the bigoted ones…sure.
You have to love the hair-trigger defensiveness of the modern republican. Everything is always and evermore a loaded weapon of some sort, and they are forever under constant fear of this vaporous contraption being used on them. Foley is another glory hound looking for limelight in the culture wars, another boy-who-cried-wolf that will concoct a tornado out of thin air.
And Fr. J, go get a job.
Use of the term “braying” when referring to Bill Donohue is indeed an insult and a slur…to mules, jackasses and donkeys. These are intelligent, strong and useful creatures; Donohue exhibits none of these qualities.
Mr Foley, I present to you a demonstration of the difference between bigotry and criticism:
Bigotry:
“I hate you because you’re catholic and believe in god!”
Criticism:
“Your belief in god causes you to try to make a cracker more important than the lives of people, but you have no evidence it’s anything more than a cracker. For this, I think you are ignorant and completely detached from reality”.
Hope that helps. A belief that your position is special and important does not, after all, make it special or important. Evidence that your cracker is more than a cracker might help your case. I suspect it is not forthcoming.
Fr. J is a fake Catholic and a fake priest. How nuts do you have to be to pretend to be a fake priest on a blog?
Is that more nuts than thinking anyone cares what a fake priest says?
Fr. J., it is ok, most of us probably did not believe you when you said you would comment anymore. I mean, why would you start telling the truth now? Why spoil your perfect record?
Oh, and atheists have been on the receiving end of catholic and xtian aggravation since, well, always.
Now, you are more than welcome to post, to comment. This is an open blog where even the most repulsive are allowed to post unless they cross clearly defined lines. You do not come up to most repulsive standards, but you are repulsive enough.
As for my personal feelings toward you, “scorn and defiance, slight regard, contempt”.
Pax Nabisco padre
Foley said he thinks Myers’ actions have ended his career. “Who can listen to him lecture on science without thinking ‘Polly wants a cracker’?” he asked.
Who can listen to Foley without thinking “Foley wanks a tracker?”?, I ask.
“Frankly I think the GOP does have cause for concern.”
Why?
“What is really nuts is that you, and your allies, believe it’s okay to disrupt worship services to protest.”
No services have been disrupted. PZ has several wafers in his possession now, and NOBODY knows where they came from. No one noticed. There’s no way of even knowing which ones are consecrated, and which ones aren’t. The wafers have no power, the priests have no power, you have no power. And this realization has you feeling a bit threatened, I see.
“I would hate to see this kind of treatment be broadcasted onto the internet to prove some theory or point…Thank You”
Proving points is a good thing. You might learn something.
But the longer this goes on the more I see his point.
at the risk of sounding condescending, thankyou.
I was getting entirely bored of all the concern trolls who refused to look past the surface and see what the point of all this really was.
He never saw such bigotry before? How is it bigorty to say that the Host is just a cracker? It is just a cracker; Right? If it isn’t, they should prove it. And I’m gonna keep saying it’s a cracker until they make at least a halfway convincing case it isn’t. Once they do I’ll back to a position of “While I personally think it’s a cracker, there’s a pretty good case it might not be; so I won’t get all up in their face about it because they’ve made a respectable attempt at proving their position.”
And what’s all this about third parties delivering the consacrated host? I’ve seen a Catholic communion a few times and it seems that part of the magic is that you see it happening in front of you. How could believing that a priest did it somewhere else at an earlier time be enough? Kinda like that Catholic funeral I went to a while back. They had one priest for three little towns in the Mich UP. He had to be at a funeral somewhere else, but performed the rite of unction before he left town. The chapel deacon performed the funeral service the service which was about the same as any other Catholic funeral except the deacon pulled out a sheet of paper written by the priest and read it to affirm the priest had performed unction. Why was this even necessary? Why did she need to read this? The kid had severe mental and physical disabilities, there was no way anyone could say that he had reached the “age of accountability” or that he was capable of any kind of sin-like actions at all. And why wasn’t the deacon a priest? Oh, she was a woman, and had done a little fucking too. That sort of thing didn’t matter to Jesus when he commanded Mary Magdaline to spread the word of his reseurrection.
And don’t think there isn’t a bunch of ritualistic mojo among Protestants. A check box at the end of a Chick Tract will save you? Come on now. To avoid the freaky juju you’ve gotta be UCC, DOC, ELCA, or Unitarian. But these demoninations are just fellow travelers protecting the more authentic Christian right which is attempting to drag our nation into oblivion. If these liberal Christians can’t hack that Phelps is right that God hates fags and that women are second rate humans, they should just become atheists as I am.
There’s a war in America, and the battlefields are our schools, our armed forces, and our very bodies. And don’t think for a second that our side is winning. I have seen my once progressive state of Texas; which desegragated in the most civilized way, became a leader in science education in the 60s-80s, and became a world center for medical research, slide into fundie depravity. I hope we will not slide all the way down. Many overseas corporations have their US headquarters in Houston. Maybe Shell, Lyondell, BP, and other companies will pull some strings so that we can go back the progressive educational system we had twenty years ago.
Has the Pope or the Vatican made comment about this or do they even know about it?
I just saw a trailer for the movie “First Sunday” about two black dudes (Ice Cube and Tracy Morgan) who need money fast and decide to rob a church. When they’re given the “cracker” they ask for Cheez Whiz.
Question: Are they going to be boycotted? Cybershot? DeathThreatted (is that a word?)
SG
You know, this is actually a contrived plot by the communion wafer makers to drive up sales. You are all falling for it quite nicely.
It’s not the only Party having a convention- PZ, focus on the one that’s nominating YOU!
http://adamant.typepad.com/seitz/2008/07/if-nominated-you-will-be-served.html
It’s hilariously easy to get a consecrated cracker, and no one would ever be the wiser for it. Just go to a Catholic service, try to stay awake until the cookies come, get in line, put out hands, and take one. I’ve never seen anyone denied. I’ve never seen anyone asked for Vatican ID. I’ve seen plenty of congregants not eat the awful thing right away. Some of them pray over it at the pew, for some reason I’ll never understand. I’ve been to services all over the country, and never, ever seen the Church deny anyone who went through the motions to get one.
Is it dishonest? Well, no more dishonest than a kid-diddling priest casting his magic spell on the crackers in the first place. Aren’t you Catholics the least bit concerned with where that guy’s hands have been?
[Correction]
Who can listen to Foley spout drivel without thinking, “Foley wanks his cracker”, I ask.
On the internets gay cyberguys set their cypberpistols on “stunning.”
No need to call Truth Machine to handle Friar J. That’s like calling out Rambo to deal with a particularly bratty cub scout.
Ignore the troll. He’s just an incarnation of Kenny or possibly his slow acolyte.
Foley has has penis envy so he tries to prove he has balls.
As someone who is actually Irish (I note from Wikipedia that Bill Donohue appears to be 100% American) I don’t find the term ‘braying’ particularly offensive or prejudicial.
On the other hand, actions on both sides of this latest incident have been a little out of order. PZ has every right to say what he did, but I wish he hadn’t. It just stirs the sh*t.
The KKK, as we all should know, is a proudly Christian organisation – and all their bigotry comes straight from the bible. So they’re far closer to your mindset than PZ’s, Fr. J.
religionauts, if anything, are always good examples of the utilization of projection as a defense mechanism.
I’ve always wondered why there aren’t any machine guns in the Star Wars universe. Probably because the Jedi would be… selected against in that case.
(Yes, the best Western is Django, thank you for asking.)
Why not? Are you afraid of something? Are you perhaps afraid of admitting something to yourself?
Corey Schlueter #104 : IMO, the pope, most of the catholics, and everyone else for that matter, don’t care. they probably don’t give a sh*t about the whole story, because it’s so ridiculous.
I find it hard to believe we live in the same world as those fundamentalists.
Cyberpistol? Yo PZ
I applaud you, PZ. You found a pretty effective avenue by which to flip the switch on their persecution complex. It’s freakin’ hilarious how unhinged these folks have gotten over a cracker, and it’s a sad commentary on how people are actually going to pay any attention the paranoid yelping of these clowns.
Then again, I may have missed the meeting where we planned to break into the RNC to kidnap all those wafery baby Jebuses. Just tell me that, aside from the cyberpistol, you’ve got some other cool toys like the ones used by Clooney and his gang in Ocean’s Eleven.
I just can’t understand why more people aren’t laughing themselves silly over these folks. Really. This isn’t outrage. It’s freakin’ comedy.
“No PZ you are the crackers!”
And then he was the crackers…
To be fair, a cyberpistol is more grounded in reality than a christ cracker.
Cyberpistol? Am I doing it wrong???
I suspect the quote was edited. What Foley said must have been something like:
“I have never personally encountered such bigotry since that Parks woman refused to give up her seat to a man only because he was white.”
. PZ has every right to say what he did, but I wish he hadn’t. It just stirs the sh*t.
You have to stir the shit if you want it to burn completely to ash.
Anyone who served in the military and had the fortune of doing latrine duty could tell you that.
http://www.commando.org/images/shit.jpg
Foley’s from Virginia so he knows a cracker when he see’s one.
Speaking of crackers, heard about Libby Dole’s wanting to name the new AIDS Relief Bill after Jesse Helms? Just when you think the irony can’t get any greater…
Oh no, PZ is a Cyberman. Beware of curly haired men with long multicoloured scarves.
Uh, Zarquon, the Doctor has regenerated since the Tom Baker days. He looks more like a young college professor these days.
But the Cybermen are back ar Xmas.
Ichthyic: Snappy comeback, but I think it may be stretching the metaphor beyond its limits.
Why not? Are you afraid of something? Are you perhaps afraid of admitting something to yourself?
I have nothing to be afraid of I believe this to be a sacrament to be apart of my life, and I have nothing to admit to myself iam not the one desecrating something that is special to someone else.
Is it the only way to get them? One could ask a Catholic priest who has turned agnostic or atheist but not yet left the church to consecrate some crackers you bought yourself. For $15 you can become a minister of life pastor and consecrate your own crackers.
Apostrophe catastrophe.
We interrupt your regularly scheduled programming for this urgent bulletin:
A wave of crackerjacking has struck US churches, leaving services disconnected for countless households and Homeland Security agents praying for clues…
Prof. Myers has the Vatican? He told us he had a big back yard – maybe it’s hidden behind Skatje’s old swing set next to the kraken pit?
If a ‘normal’ priest has the power to turn a wafer into Jesus, who did those convicted pedophile priests turn them into? Charles Manson?
Which includes never once looking in a mirror or listening to the words that come out of his own mouth.
Bio teacher:
On earlier threads, Fr. J was going on and on about 18 U.S.C. s. 247, which makes it illegal to intentionally “deface, damage, or destroy” “religious real property,” which is defined as “any church, synagogue, mosque, religious cemetery, or other religious real property, including fixtures or religious objects contained within a place of religious worship.”
Fr. J’s argument was that the wafers are “religious objects contained within a place of religious worship.” He cited no caselaw or other authority in support of that proposition.
As far as I can recall, he had no substantive response to the rather obvious objection that, even assuming that the wafer is a “religious object” within the meaning of the statute, and even assuming that PZ is going to “deface, damage, or destoy” it, by the time that happens the wafer will no longer be “contained within a place of religious worship.”
As for Fr. J’s claim on this thread that “[t]hose who have stolen consecrated hosts have committed a federal offense,” I have no idea what he’s talking about. I assume he’s just making shit up.
but I think it may be stretching the metaphor beyond its limits.
Oh? why?
I rather thought it a rather apt metaphor myself. However, I might be a bit biased, being an anti-theist.
And if so, do they really care that much about what a few crazy Americans think about it?
Universal Life is a vaguely Protestant sect, right? In any case they aren’t Catholics.
PZ
Are you sure it’s not psychological projection that you see Donahue and a braying ass?
Personally, I don’t see a whole lot of difference between him and you.
No it fucking isn’t.
What is intensely annoying, irritating, and cringe-making for many of us Irish (y’know, the ones who were actually born there) is having wackaloon wankstains like Bill Donahue calling themselves Irish when they’re not: we have plenty of our own genuine, home-grown assholes without having a goodly portion of American assholes associated with us too, thanks very much.
Personally, I don’t see a whole lot of difference between him and you.
That you decided to poke your eyes out because they offended you isn’t really relevant to the discussion, troll.
Prof. Myers has the Vatican? He told us he had a big back yard – maybe it’s hidden behind Skatje’s old swing set next to the kraken pit?
The Vatican is a place the Eucharist is the heart of the Church
It just occurs to me. What is the word for taking a host hostage?
Could it possibly be a “crackerjacking?”
“Even at his age of 63, Foley said, he had never personally encountered such bigotry.”
No, I can’t imagine he has. He probably has staff to turn away minorities and other undesirables before they have a chance to get near him – unless they’re carrying a campaign contribution.
Lets see what the damage has been so far:
1. The President of the U. of Minnesota has removed PZ’s blog reference from his university web site.
2. The President of the U. of Minnesota, Paul Brinkinks, has written a letter stating clearly that the University
disavows any association with Dr. Myers’ hate filled messages.
3. PZ and/or his minions have managed to get one hard working lady who was trying to help support her three children, and whose only fault was that she was married to a thoughless husband, fired from her job.
4. PZ has one RNC delegate calling for something just short of activation of the Minnesota National Guard for Convention security. I’m sure the good people of Minnesota
just love that kind of publicity. For them, It must bring back memories of the Chicago Convention in the ’60s.
And, I suspect that before its over Sherman’s march to the sea may look like a cake walk of destruction by comparison.
Nice going PZ, that’s not a bad week’s work. I can’t wait to see what next week brings
The defining aspect of human intelligence it seems, is the ability, possessed by no other organism on this planet, to, through a conscious act of will, render oneself dumber than an amoeba.
I give you Thomas Foley. . . .
PZ, I’m absolutely sure that you have the power to say magic gobbledygook and transform crackers (saltines, ritz, wheat thins whatever) into real life cyberpistols (which look and taste exactly like crackers but we’ll know the “truth”). Your minions can then use these “cyberpistols” use to attack the RNC. As one of your minions I await your command Oh! Great Cat Herder.
I think the leader-follower mindset of Mr. Foley and the Catholic League is interesting. Of course they can’t fathom the possibility that people can read PZ’s blog and think for themselves. No, they are sure those who agree with PZ will do whatever he says just like good Catholics.
(Actually I think it would be really great if there were a bunch of “followers” at the protest area of the RNC doing nothing but throwing crackers in the general direction of the Xcel Energy Center. No chanting, no yelling, no signs, just throwing crackers)
Wait, what? I’m armed with a cyberpistol? Is that what we atheist brigands use to rob trucks trundling down the tubes of the internet?
Yeah, now I’ve got an image akin to Mad Myers Tube Warrior… that one’s gonna keep me grinning all day.
What a sheltered life this guy has got to have lived if this is the greatest personal ‘bigotry’ he’s experienced First, he’s got serious issues if he’s unable to tell the difference between an act of protest/expression and actual bigotry. Offence is not sufficient, while malicious intent is required (Myers motivations strike me as mischevious, hardly malicious).
Semantics aside, I’m almost a third his age and I can think of at least two incidences of personally experienced anti-Catholic bigotry. They weren’t all that bad, but I could say that I detected malice. Funnily enough, the perpetrators in both cases were other christians… let him choke on the fact that while Myers dislikes what he stands for, that dislike pales in comparison to the contempt his own evangelical ‘allies’ hold Catholics of all persuasions in.
The only thing that really insults me as an actual Irishman born on the island of Ireland is the number of Irish-American conservative blowhards who bring the name of our fine island into disrepute.
Bill O’Reilly, Bill O’Donaghue, Thomas Foley and others like you – please do not use your ancestry to try to legitimise your authoritarian braying (there, I said it too – am I insulting myself?).
I feel nothing but contempt for your political, social and religious opinions. They are yours not mine. Leave Ireland out of it.
“Why not? Are you afraid of something? Are you perhaps afraid of admitting something to yourself?”
Afraid to admit that……the cracker is a lie?!
(I can’t be the first one to have said this.)
It’s a fucking cracker!!
I look at atheism the same way that you look at religion (Catholics especially apparently). The big difference being that if I met you on the street I would still treat you and your beliefs with basic human respect. Which you and a vast majority of your posters have failed to do. I’m a Catholic and proud of it. While that obviously repulses you it is my choice and right in this country. We deserve basic human respect whether you agree with us or not. What you (as well as those people who take the Eucharist) do is sacrilege to us. It’s hateful, disrespectful, and wrong. You don’t have to believe to show some basic respect.
And for the record, Donohue doesn’t bray. Stop saying that. He whispers.
He whispers things like:
“Those evil atheistses won’t desecrate you, my preciousss…”
James Goetz wrote:
Maybe when they do the inevitable South Park episode…
the Eucharist is the heart of the Church
“From hell’s heart, I stab at thee. For hate’s sake, I spit my last breath at thee.”
something tells me these “victimized” catholics got the wrong message from Melville.
Hey, In a society where Food Not Bombs can be considered a terrorist organization , anything is possible. (Food fight! Food fight! Food fight!)
#441 Posted by: Max Verret | July 16, 2008 7:24 PM
It would appear that Max aspires to be a kroll.
@#141
“3. PZ and/or his minions have managed to get one hard working lady who was trying to help support her three children, and whose only fault was that she was married to a thoughless husband, fired from her job.”
NO her husband did that. Don’t use a corporate email to send threats, actually you shouldn’t use a corporate email for anything other than work related communication – That’s a policy almost ALL companies use. That’s because they (1800flowers) are responsible for everything that is sent from their servers.
Max Verret
“3. PZ and/or his minions have managed to get one hard working lady who was trying to help support her three children, and whose only fault was that she was married to a thoughless husband, fired from her job.”
Dumbass, in what way did PZ and/or his minions manage to get M. Kroll fired? Her stupid troll of a husband managed to do that.
I wouldn’t underestimate the power of our cyberpistols guys:
http://aigbusted.blogspot.com/2008/07/did-i-get-woman-fired.html
Apparently this guy called 1-800-Flowers to inquire about the death threat the person sent from one of their e-mail addresses and they just informed him she’s been fired. Apparently businesses don’t take kindly to employees using their e-mail servers to send illegal death threats.
WTF? Braying is insulting to the Irish? Since when? I’ve lived in Ireland since I was seven and I can report with absolute certainty that that is a load of crap.
Hi Ronny, you little self-hating closet case.
You snipe like a chihuahua, but you don’t have the balls to be open about your lack of faith. If you really are an atheist.
I think you’re just a lying conservative poser trolling while he fondles his shriveled excuse for a prick. You probably long to suckle Kay Bailey Hitchison’s wizened tits while being buggered by Dick Army and Phil Graham.
Little Ronny, the sniveling petulant troll. Oh, what nasty things are you gonna call me now, widdle mewly mouthed Ron Ron?
That Corpus Christi story at #51 has to be a joke, right? Doesn’t Corpus Christi mean “body of christ” in latin?
Somebody stole the body of christ from body of christ?
-A Catholic, comparing PZ’s cracker call with the lynchings of the KKK.
The fact that you cannot see a difference is why I will fight tooth and nail to make sure you and your kind are safely sequestered where you can no longer infect children with your stupidity.
Why not? Are you afraid of something? Are you perhaps afraid of admitting something to yourself?”
Afraid to admit that……the cracker is a lie?!
(I can’t be the first one to have said this.)
Prove to me its a lie and I will prove to you that it is real and maybe sometime in the next century we will agree to disagree, that’s not the point the point is why do this, what benefit does it give, people will see this stunt and could care less but Catholics who believe in the sacrament will be hurt by it. What does it do, iam pretty sure we are not going to stop believing that the host you have is the body of Christ himself.
EV
And the attack of the hateful mindless sycophants begins….
Wait, he’s a 63-year-old catholic and he has never “personally encountered such bigotry”? Did he miss all the catholic rants against protestants and jews? gays? Did he miss out completely on the joy that was (and is) the fucking IRA? How about special dispensation requested by the churches to be allowed to discriminate against whomsoever they damn well please?
Let’s see:
1. bomb busload of schoolchildren…check A-OK with us catholics
2. prevent loving couple from adopting child in need of loving family because said couple have the same chromosome complement…check A-OK with the catholics
3. repressed sexual predator uses asymmetrical power relationship to facilitate molestation of young children…check A-OK with the catholics
4. But mess with the crackers and all hell breaks loose!
@152
“Hey, In a society where Food Not Bombs can be considered a terrorist organization , anything is possible. (Food fight! Food fight! Food fight!)”
Kind of scary isn’t it? Got a friend who was on the post 9/11 FBI ‘watch list’ for distributing food to the poor and homeless in Fresno. Maybe he was giving away jeebus crackers…
According to V.S. Ramachandran quoting lord Reith
“There are some people whom it is ones duty to offend”
Thank you Dr. Myers for doing your duty.
MZ wrote:
You deserve basic human respect. Your beliefs are open to criticism – as are PZ’s, mine and everyone else’s. Some of your co-religionists chose to place the belief above the well-being of an actual person; PZ strongly disagrees with that and chose to make an example of the belief in question (the eucharist) to bring it to the attention of as many people as possible.
The big difference being that if I met you on the street I would still treat you and your beliefs with basic human respect. Which you and a vast majority of your posters have failed to do.
This man speaks the truth! I was walking down the street today and saw him (I recongized he was Catholic by his halo) and thought “Hmmm that guy must be ‘MZ’ who trolls on Pharyngula.”
Then I totally disrespected his beliefs! It was great!
Friendo @ # 90 – Surely I wasn’t the only one dismayed to find that the URL you gave for the irreplaceable Racial Slur Database (“Helping make the world a better place.”) actually leads to a European enterprise whose slogan – “RSDB is an organisation of services providing companies that transform the communication expressions of their customers – with value added – into printed and multimedia productions.” – implies that slurs would cost significantly extra, though they’d be well-packaged.
I have a cyberpitchfork, and I’m not afraid to use it.
I’d say you could explain to them that, really, you were just being irreverent, but I don’t think they’d even understand that.
“3. PZ and/or his minions have managed to get one hard working lady who was trying to help support her three children, and whose only fault was that she was married to a thoughless husband, fired from her job.”
Maybe she shouldn’t have sent an illegal death threat using her employers property. Companies don’t take too kindly on that sort of thing.
FrJ,
You screwed up one of your sentences. I’ll assume it was just merely a typo, because surely no one could be dumb enough to make the statement you did…
Those who have stolen consecrated hosts
havehave not committed a federal offense…Actually, I’d be fooling myself if I thought you understood the legal system enough to determine what is and isn’t a crime, especially when you claim that there is a law – and a federal law at that! – that makes it a crime to steal consecrated wafers.
In the case of the recent theft from a Texas church’s tabernacle, I can guarantee you that the defendants in that case will be facing charges ranging from breaking and entering to petty larceny, but the theft they will be charged with will be limited to the container the wafers were in at the time. Communion wafers, consecrated or not, have absolutely NO monetary value at all.
Until you start putting substance behind your claims – which in this case would mean citing the statute that actually says that – you really should stay out of the grown-up conversations.
Another Catholic opines
Max– You can add a #5 to that. He managed to get a woman with three children fired from her stay-at-home job by releasing the details of a hateful email sent by her husband unbeknown to her. It was a typically thoughtless move in a week that has seen PZ right back to his brashest and most vulgar and offensive. As with the Expelled conference call it was simply a case of “act now – think later”.
Brian F wrote:
Wait, you really believe that PZ has “the body of Christ himself” in his basement?
Do you think you could tell which crackers are “the body of Christ himself” and which aren’t if PZ showed you some crackers?
“I will prove to you that it is real”
DO it, right now. Lets do DNA analysys of the cracker, and then we can clone Jesus!
Question, if you have celiacs disease are you pretty much doomed to eternal hell fire because the body of jesus will make you insides cramp up and cause excruciating pain?
“Even at his age of 63, Foley said, he had never personally encountered such bigotry.”
It’s so hard being a white Christian male in a society dominated by white Christian males for hundreds of years!
OK, so I just posted over there. Somehow I doubt this is true:
As an offspring from a fiercely Irish-American family (I add the hyphenation there to mollify those of the Irish-Irish who get noisy about the point, while rejecting their argument in entirety as a matter of semantics), I’ve never heard anything of the sort about `Braying.` I’ve heard a lot less than nice things, but nothing donkey related.
You should reply saying that the US Supreme Court recognized an individual right to bear cyberarms. If they don’t like it, they can take an weblawsuit to the internetCourt to get you iDisarmed.
Pete Rooke, #173:
He managed to get a woman with three children fired from her stay-at-home job by releasing the details of a hateful email sent by her husband unbeknown to her. It was a typically thoughtless move by her husband, who is a moron – since what he did is against the law, and contravened his wife’s employment policy.
Fixed it for ya.
If a ‘normal’ priest has the power to turn a wafer into Jesus, who did those convicted pedophile priests turn them into? Charles Manson?
Posted by: Dlux | July 16, 2008 7:13 PM
Well… the priests did eat those kids…
Wait, you really believe that PZ has “the body of Christ himself” in his basement?
Do you think you could tell which crackers are “the body of Christ himself” and which aren’t if PZ showed you some crackers?
175 entries and we are just now understanding that cathloics beleive that a consegrated host is actually the body of christ, of course it is why do you think iam on here defending it, if were a piece of bread why would we care.
if were a piece of bread why would we care.
if you really think it the body of a christ, why not file kidnapping charges?
seriously, go out and hire a lawyer, right now, and file federal and state kidnapping charges against PZ.
I am Catholic, and I denounce all death threats against PZ Myers. They are possibly criminal acts and definitely reflect badly on those who make them even if not meant seriously. I believe my views on the matter are those of almost all American Catholics.
At the same time, again with, I think, most American Catholics, I deplore PZ’s threats to desecrate the Eucharist.
…He’s loaded a cyberpistol and he’s cocked it and he’s left it on the table…
Ah, yes. The triumph again of the conveniently malleable metaphor.
See how it’s done? It’s so picturesque. Cocking a cyberpistol… it sounds so much more menacing than does ‘well, he told off a buncha wankers who were hassling a kid over a cracker and roundly mocked people who actually believed certain foodstuffs become portions of a deity at regular weekly intervals’. This is the point: it serves a political purpose, same as does all the CL’s windy noise on the subject… the fact that the metaphor bears absolutely no resemblance to what actually happened here is, of course, of no concern. So hey, he wins this one. These are the rules of politics, and of the conveniently malleable metaphor. It’s his metaphor, he can do with it as he wishes. Mocking an arcane and bizarre belief is officially now menacingly cocking a ‘cyberpistol’. You cybercrazed cybergunman, you…
Fortunately, however, we’ve still got Foley dead to rights, too… Seein’ as transparent grandstanding demagoguery of this stripe is hereby officially declared to be cyberbeating up cyberlittle old ladies and cyberorphans for their cyberpensions ‘n cyberalms…
That cyberbastard.
“that cathloics beleive that a consegrated host is actually the body of christ”
The concept of a metaphor has escaped Catholicism completely
PZ ought to hold the cracker at cyber gunpoint. That’ll teach those Catholics. Ransom the damn thing too.
“What’s he telling them to do? Consecrated Hosts are not just lying around,” he said to CNA, noting that the only other possible way to secure a Host would be to accost a priest, nun, or layman taking the Sacrament to the sick.
Nuns visiting the sick in hospitals will now need armed guards, thanks to PZ.
I’m looking forward to PZ carrying out his threat to cause serious harm to a cracker. Then the Catholics will really go nuts.
Brian F wrote:
Why would you believe something like that?
Is there any sane reason to believe something like that?
Because you’re doing parody and satire? Because you’re a concern troll?
Blondin @#159
Follow the link — it is no joke, though it is a curious coincidence. Somebody stole consecrated hosts from the tabernacle in the Cathedral in Corpus Christi, Texas. Really.
“that cathloics beleive that a consegrated host is actually the body of christ”
The concept of a metaphor has escaped Catholicism completely
Read the Bible and maybe you will understand that there is not use of a metaphor here
Wait! I thought the Reps. were all about gun ownership.
Could they open up a fake convention somewhere in Minneapolis for the RNC idiots who don’t even know where they are going?
Lets see what the damage has been so far:
1. The President of the U. of Minnesota has removed PZ’s blog reference from his university web site.
It’s his personal blog. I think it’s questionable if the link even belonged there in the first place. What’s the damage?
2. The President of the U. of Minnesota, Paul Brinkinks, has written a letter stating clearly that the University
disavows any association with Dr. Myers’ hate filled messages.
Of course they do. Any public entity would do the same. PZ could have suddenly started ranting about how much he dislikes [noun], thus pissing off lovers of [noun] and the U would have the same stance. Religion, puppies, whatever…it’s the reaction of the opposition that garners the response. Again, what damage?
3. PZ and/or his minions have managed to get one hard working lady who was trying to help support her three children, and whose only fault was that she was married to a thoughless husband, fired from her job.
You don’t think the husband might, just maybe, be at fault for sending the email in the first place? It’s unfortunate that she’s married to a rube but can’t see how it’s PZ or any his “minions” fault. Certainly some harm here but it’s certainly not anyone here’s fault that the mail was sent.
4. PZ has one RNC delegate calling for something just short of activation of the Minnesota National Guard for Convention security. I’m sure the good people of Minnesota
just love that kind of publicity. For them, It must bring back memories of the Chicago Convention in the ’60s.
Actually Bill Donohue crying wolf created this. As for publicity this entire episode has more or less been online only. Ask the average Minneapolis or St. Paul resident on the street about it and they’ll have no clue what your talking about. If you want to call this damage (which it isn’t) the only one to blame is Bill Donohue…and perhaps the overreaction of one GOP delegate.
They’ve been talking about trying to get more security for well over a month now, long before this whole situation even came up.
And, I suspect that before its over Sherman’s march to the sea may look like a cake walk of destruction by comparison.
I lol’d. I really, really hope you’re kidding about that. Comparing this stupid internet squabble to the Savannah Campaign is beyond idiotic. Talk about overreacting…
Well it’s not just the religious imbeciles who are calling PZ a bigot, and equating rudeness with bigotry. See http://scienceblogs.com/framing-science/2008/07/on_pz_don_imus_atheism_and_ath.php
for Nisbet’s take on this: he posts Andrew Sullivan’s mutterings to say exactly that with a bit of plausible deniability (being an academic in communications, he absolutely knows that such a move is Propaganda 101).
Of course, my comment reflecting on that was bounced — I tried to be polite, but it was a bit too close too home I guess.
Brian F wrote:
For your non-existent god’s sake Brian, do you open a book (if you and your kind haven’t burned them all) at the middle and start
readinglooking at the pictures from there?If you go back to the original thread from last week you’ll find that the concept has been explained dozens of times. We know what you think happens to the cracker. It’s just that we a) don’t believe that it happens, and b) don’t care that you do believe that it happens.
Not agreeing or caring is not the same as not understanding.
#173 – So by your logic if I report a crime that results in the perpetrator (or, to tailor the analogy more precisely, an accomplice) being punished, I’m the bad person?
In summary:
Sending a threatening e-mail (from your wife’s work address no less) – OK;
Snitching on the threatening e-mailer – not OK.
Pete – it strikes me that your moral compass might not be reading true North on this.
4. But mess with the crackers and all hell breaks loose!
what’s really funny is all the fake victimized catholics, who claim that PZ wouldn’t ever do the same to Muslims, when he actually did do just that:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/07/desecration_its_a_fun_hobby.php
what’s more amazing, he didn’t receive death threats from Muslims for that post, or have a shitstorm of insanity arise from it.
so, I begin to wonder which group has the larger number of radical, insane, fundamentalists willing to do violence at the mere mention of exposing one of their ridiculous notions.
so far, the Catholics are winning by orders of magnitude on the “insane threatening others” front.
EV
And the attack of the hateful mindless sycophants begins….
Posted by: Ron in Houston | July 16, 2008 7:32 PM
And the senseless comments from the sock puppet troll continue…
Why would you believe something like that?
Is there any sane reason to believe something like that?
If you are someone that is open to normal conversation and has a bible handy i can explain it easy, but if you dont beleive in the bible or are open to a different point of view then I would just be wasting my time
They are braying because they aren’t used to anyone challenging their world-view so openly. They should sit, pipe down for awhile, and get used to it.
No doubt the average resident of The Cities would tell Donohue and his cowering horde that Morris was practically in the Dakotas and that Donohue was an idiot.
“Read the Bible and maybe you will understand that there is not use of a metaphor here”
No my point is that these things in the bible are metaphors, remember its a simile that uses “like” or “as”, so a metaphor would look like a ‘literal’ statement, and any rational person would notice that it isn’t, due to how far from reality it is.
Example:
Simile – “I’m hungry as a wolf”
Metaphor “I’m a hungry wolf” <- Nowhere do I make the distinction I'm not a wolf, but a rational person would figure out that this is a metaphor.
for Nisbet’s take on this
*sigh*
I had hopes that eventually, Matt would settle down and stop trying to play up the fallacy of the golden mean.
..but no, he seems very intent on burning the house down to aggrandize his failed agenda.
I think most of us have decided to wash our hands of him at this point.
bye Matt.
@ Wowbagger
We Catholics can rely on a moral text that governs our behaviour. Were you to as well you would realize that you punish the sinner and not the sinned against. Those children do not deserve the pain and cramps that could arise from not eating tonight. They do not deserve to make do with shoes stuffed with newspapers, and borrowed from their father, during P.E. because they couldn’t afford to purchase a new pair. They do not deserve having to stand in the “reduced lunch” line at school because they can no longer afford the full rate of $2.50 each day. Actions have consequences and PZ – as a scientist – should know this. He doesn’t though possibly because he has no moral guidance. That’s not to malign all atheists as I’m sure some are perfectly decent people and have an atheist acquaintance who I have conversed with without any trouble or pause.
“Hokey religions and ancient Republicans are no match for a good cyberpistol at your side, kid.”
The end of my example got cut off
BUT – Nowhere in the metaphor do I state that I am not a wolf, but a rational person would understand that I am not a wolf.
Michael Kremer: I am Catholic, and I denounce all death threats against PZ Myers. They are possibly criminal acts and definitely reflect badly on those who make them even if not meant seriously. I believe my views on the matter are those of almost all American Catholics.
At the same time, again with, I think, most American Catholics, I deplore PZ’s threats to desecrate the Eucharist.
I might have missed some, but that is the first sane Catholic response I’ve seen so far. Measured, rational, and appropriately insulted in perspective. Michael points out, first and foremost that the death threats are unacceptable. Only after that, as a side-note, does he point out that he’s deeply insulted — which is reasonable and appropriate. That’s life — I wouldn’t expect someone who believed in magic to not be insulted, to not dislike PZ and refuse to invite him over for a dinner party.
One out of thousands of posting. Hurrah to Mr. Kremer — but unfortunately, he is the exception that proves the rule. I would change my opinion on this if I saw the Catholic hierarchy take such a stance — clearly tell the imbeciles in their congregations that it is more un-Catholic to threaten an opponent with death than to desecrate a cookie. Then I might be able to believe that they have the faintest glimmer of a ghost of a sense of morality.
I don’t understand why it hasn’t occured to this Foley guy that you can get a “consecrated” communion wafer by going up for communion and then pocketing the cracker instead of putting in in your mouth. You don’t need to ambush any nuns.
Although maybe he can’t imagine a world where a non-believer would dare go to mass under false pretenses. Maybe he expects non-believers to be struck down as soon as they step inside the church?
No my point is that these things in the bible are metaphors, remember its a simile that uses “like” or “as”, so a metaphor would look like a ‘literal’ statement, and any rational person would notice that it isn’t, due to how far from reality it is.
Example:
Simile – “I’m hungry as a wolf”
Metaphor “I’m a hungry wolf”
But when he said this at the last supper, desciples actually left because of what he was saying and the fact that they could not beleive it, this is why we take it as written
#199…
You’re going to use the Bible to prove something to people who, on average, think the whole thing is a bloodthirsty Fairy Tale?
You’re dumber than you look.
Why is it Republicans are such chicken shit cowards? Can someone explain why there is always a bogeyman right around the corner that these warmongers are so fucking afraid of? Why is the party of tough talk is also the party that starts running for more security guards and cops the moment they get a little scared? What’s the deal with these Big Strong Men of The Lord also being the biggest pussies in the country?
MZ (#148),
Let’s talk a little bit about the issue of the religious and respect. For instance, it’s a common trope in U.S. politics that you can’t be a “true American” without believing in God. This is not even a controversial position; prominent politicians say things like that all the time and suffer no consequences whatsoever, because most oh-so-respectful religious people AGREE with this.
Of course I don’t know you, but I would not be surprised if you nod along when you hear this type of sentiment.
Also, as a Catholic you probably believe that I deserve to be tortured for ETERNITY for not believing as you do, which also doesn’t seem respectful to me.
When people who believe in God aren’t yelling “one nation UNDER GOD” in my face — and rebuke those who do — then maybe I’ll worry more about your unleavened bread.
And Ichthyic (#102), I’m afraid your condescension did come through, though I’m not sure I understand the reason for it. As a long-time lurker in what is supposed to be a community of freethinkers I was surprised at how quickly I was branded a “concern troll” for disagreeing with everyone else. I didn’t even disagree all that MUCH — I agreed that PZ had the right to do what he did and wrote a letter in support of that right — I just said I personally didn’t think it was the right approach. But that was all it took for “nonconformists” to call me a name instead of arguing with me.
What? As a belief in supernatural agencies without any empirical evidence? You have a funny definition of atheism and religion!
This isn’t the street, it’s a blog. As a human being, you have certain rights which nobody here would seek to violate. Your beliefs are entitled to no such respect, including your belief that a cracker turns into a bit of a Levantine Jewish zombie when a man in a dress says “hocus pocus” over it: this is patently absurd and deserves nothing but derisive laughter.
We all have our cross to bear.
Again, your person has rights including expressing your beliefs, no matter how absurd, but your beliefs do not, of themselves, have any rights whatever.
Nobody has done anything. Even if they had, it’d be your tough shit: last time I checked, your religion’s particular notion of “sacrilege” wasn’t a crime any more than not wearing a burka.
No, it isn’t. I think your beliefs are nonsensical and absurd, but there is simply no hate involved
Yes, true, I have no respect for your beliefs.
No, getting your panties in a bunch because a kid wanted to show a cracker to his buddy is stupid, saying that it’s stupid isn’t wrong.
Nobody has shown any disrespect toward persons except the Catholic Taliban who threatened violence and death. Asinine nonsense like transubstantiation is an insult to human intelligence and deserves no respect: don’t confuse respect for an idea with respect for a person.
Brian F wrote:
What do you mean “if you dont beleive in the bible”? I believe there is a Bible, but I don’t think you can move a mountain with faith by telling it to move nor do I believe your faith will let you walk on water. I also don’t think you have any special power drink poison or handle snakes… things the Bible seems to claim.
You’re going to use the Bible to prove something to people who, on average, think the whole thing is a bloodthirsty Fairy Tale?
You’re dumber than you look.
Can you see me???
I just visited the blog of Matthew C. Nisbet where he was criticizing PZ and I suggested he live in a theocracy if he doesn’t like free speech. I noticed he reviews all comments before publishing them, which means he really is against free speech. From what I have heard about Nisbet, he sounded like an asshole. Now I’m sure he’s an asshole.
“He managed to get a woman with three children fired from her stay-at-home job by releasing the details of a possible felony abetted by her violation of her employer’s IT policies.”
Brian F wrote:
Again, Brian, if you read through all of the comments on all of the posts on this topic since this affair began you might realise you are correct – but not for the reasons you will automatically assume.
Some particular well-versed and eloquent posters have spent hours explaining to us the history and justification for the eucharist within the Catholic church and what they believe are the compelling arguments for Christianity.
Almost all of them have been better at it than you’re likely to be – I don’t mean that to be insulting; it’s just a fact – and it hasn’t made a difference.
Go back and read what almost all of us have read. It’s going to take you some time. If, once you’ve done that, you have anything new or interesting or different to add, feel free. If not, you are – as you say – ‘wasting your time’.
This is getting way too craaaaazy. How come every almost freaking US American politician is crazy?
He’s not crazy. He’s looking for an “issue” he can get some press time about, which won’t involve any large government expenditures and will allow him to say he “took a strong stand” and “did the right thing” blah blah blah.
Politicians love nonissues like this because they can turn them into issues, and distract the vast dumb flock from the real issues – which are not solvable with soundbites and handwaving. Because this tactic works, we wind up with a political system whose public face is driven by soundbites and handwaving.
#204 – You know, you’re right – no child should have to live through such melodramatic Dickensian poverty because their father was an idiot and posted a threatening e-mail on their mother’s work mail account. Perhaps we should have the kids taken into care by social services.
Extreme – I know – but as mad as it sounds, it makes a whole lot more sense than blaming the guy the threatening mail was aimed at, who’s terrible crime, according to you, was reporting that he’d been threatened.
What sort of pathetic Irishman think braying is “a great insult for the Irish.” Seriously, the Irish have some of the most creative insults I have ever heard, if you think “braying” is bad visit an Irish pub sometimes and you’ll be quickly re-educated on that point. If any happen to be from the Gaelteacht they can insult you in English and Irish (Gaelic).
@204 “Actions have consequences”
Much like using your spouses business email account to send threatening emails has a consequence.
Nice attempt to drum up sympathy though. It certainly is unfortunate if that family falls on hard times due to the husband being an irrational fool.
“We Catholics can rely on a moral text that governs our behaviour. Were you to as well you would realize that you punish the sinner and not the sinned against.”
Threatening to beat in someones skull isn’t against your holy text? Impressive.
Or is it more of a sliding scale thing, one offensive more heinous then the other so the lesser one doesn’t count?
I’ll leave your comment on “moral guidance” from text to someone else, it’s something of a dead horse around here.
I’m not looking to change anybody’s mind I just wonder what posting a person desecrating a host on the Internet does
She *is* the sinner — she violated the contract of her employment.
If you have children who will have to stuff newspaper in their shoes should you lose your job, it behooves you to be careful about keeping your job.
Shorter Thomas Foley:
“Meyers shouldn’t be allowed to say that.”
Perhaps Mr. Foley thinks free speech should be reserved for people who agree with him.
Tedious.
Matthew C. Nisbet quoted Andrew Sullivan: “It is one thing to engage in free, if disrespectful, debate. It is another to repeatedly assault and ridicule and abuse something that is deeply sacred to a great many people.”
Apparently Nisbet thinks everyone should respect crackers, especially holy crackers. Nisbet is willing to throw out free speech to protect the feelings of people who worship crackers. Nisbet wants to muzzle PZ so that people who worship crackers are not offended by scientists.
Nisbet, if you are reading this, go fuck yourself.
I’m glad that delegate Foley agreed that there were so many comments from bigots.
I’ve only seen trolls do pretty sad impersonations of “militant atheists” who all seemed very preoccupied with a particular sect of christianity for non-believers. And then there was a bunch of bigots calling for heads to roll over a cracker.
Terrible stuff indeed.
Brian F @223
To me? Nothing. But then, I already know that it’s just a cracker. You obviously need a demonstration.
To me? Nothing. But then, I already know that it’s just a cracker. You obviously need a demonstration
Demo for people that beleive that it is not a cracker will not change a thing
Pete Rooke, #204
She was fired for letting him use her work computer. If her husband had sent a threatening email to anyone else and they’d complained then the result would have been the same. If he’d downloaded porn or file-shared music and the company had been informed the result would have been the same.
I also feel bad for Melanie Kroll, and especially for her children – since they do not deserve to suffer for either the carelessness of one parent nor the complete stupidity of the other. The appropriate punishments, i feel, would be a warning to Melanie Kroll – and at least a well-publicised trial for her husband, even if no conviction occurred.
I guarantee that most, if not all, the regulars here also feel bad that she’s lost her job. That’s right. Compassion from amoral atheists. Are you shocked? I can guarantee you most of what you’ve assumed about atheists is wrong.
Anyway, the only person who should feel guilty about this is her husband. He chose to violate her employment policy. He chose to break the law by sending a threatening email to PZ.
Plus, as catholics, they have the ultimate safety net. Don’t you believe in a just and loving god? Surely he will redress the balance if there is a need.
Thanks for the debate….Good Bye
What is it with Republicans named Foley and dicks? They’re either trying to stick them into teenage boys or acting like one.
What utter foolishness.
The failed moral compass belongs to the father of the three shoeless and starving children. A Catholic who decided that the way to defend his faith was with an almost illiterate death threat that he sent from his wife’s business e-mail. Now that is impress moral guidance, that one must assume was taught to him by the Church.
If you want to try to lecture someone I recomend get your facts straight and then look elsewhere.
Also, as an aside, if I were to be Catholic and want to partake of these awful crackers but can’t since I have Celiac disease…
There’s no gluten in zombie meat, bio teacher; you’re good.
Brian, did you even read anything that was posted here? For your own enlightenment, do as I suggested – go and read the older posts and the comments on them.
I have trouble putting into words what I think of this whole things since it began. But to sum it all up, I think “insane” would do just fine. I can’t believe that people have this much time on their hands to worry about what one person did with a cracker. I think perhaps the atheist movement is having a stronger affect than we may have realized. It would seem that Catholics are feeling a little touchy about the ligitmacy of their religion. If you’re sure that a cracker is the body of Christ, what the hell do you care what anyone says about it? Just go on and keep eating your crackers…wait…you’re eating Christ!!! That poor guy just wanted to walk with Christ!! Aren’t there more important things going on in the world to get all up in arms about (literally) … real injustices, torture, starvation, brutality…get a grip people!
PZ,
Don’t be surprised by this latest press development. It’s all part of the discredit and demonize game played by theocrats. Because Melanie/Chuck Kroll’s vulgar, ignorant and violent email to you (and her subsequent dismissal) is now being relayed through several media outlets, they are going on the offensive.
They aren’t going to mention that both you and the student who absconded with the communion wafer have received death threats. Instead, they are going to say that they are afraid of you, because you may have violent tendencies. I am surprised that you haven’t been called a terrorist – yet.
Stay strong. And if you haven’t already, I would forward the threats you have received to the police.
They will continue to ratchet up the press war.
Brian F:
Let me reply with a quote from yourself.
I just posted this at Nisbet’s blog. It is in blog purgatory waiting for his approval.
Let me see if I’ve got this straight.
It is OK for Christians, be they Catholic or whatever, to consistently claim that an atheist like myself is condemned to an eternity in hell if I do not believe in their fairy tales, but dare atheists point out the ridiculousness of the rituals that perpetuate this true bigotry, we are somehow rude and sophomoric.
And Nisbett is twisting the frame when he holds up Sullivan as an example of an atheist… he is not, he is Catholic. “…it springs from my Catholic faith, which, despite the best efforts of the Catholic hierarchy, endures. The inherent dignity of all human beings is something I believe is a reflection of God’s will through the revelation of Jesus Christ.” Granted, he declares he is not crackpot “Christianist”, but to imply he is some sort if polite enlightened atheist is intellectually dishonest at best.
#204 – Peter Rooke
So is this like saying we shouldn’t report priests for molesting people because they might go to jail and suffer.
I know they don’t have wives or children but laws don’t change if you have a wife and kids – just the consequences of stupid actions become worse.
This means you have to be more responsible. The religious people I have seen seem more interested in buying the biggest SUV and having the most kids to impress their fellow churchgoers without thought to how it affects the planet.
Brian F wrote:
It might if there were still a smidgen of sanity left to latch on to. Many of us atheists here used to be Christians until something got us thinking about how crazy the things we were asked to believe were.
You should take the crackers, and glue them together in your favorite Athiest logo – like the “A” with the atoms flying around it.
Or glue them together in the shape of an octopus <- that would make a great header for your site :)
Thanks for the debate….Good Bye
ass-door-etc.
Okay, add my confusion to the pile. Why in the world do they need to tighten security at the Republican National Convention against people who want to misappropriate consecrated hosts? Might as well ask for extra police protection at an International House of Pancakes because they heard some guy was intent on getting his hands on some horseshoe nails.
To quote Hermione Grainger, “What…an…idiot.”
Many of us atheists here used to be Christians until something got us thinking about how crazy the things we were asked to believe were.
some Catholics even realize the insanity of it all, and have posted their recognition here:
(from the very first thread)
Why people are making such a huge deal about this, I have no idea. They’ve got nothing else on the go I suppose.
Josh is wise, for a Catholic.
Brian F., I know a few analytical chemists. If you tell me how the Eucharist differs from a pre-blessed wafer, I can have those chemists look for the differences and prove you right. If either you can’t describe the differences, or there proves to be none, then logic dictates that the Eucharist is a sham. This is the way evidence based philosophies like science operate. The burden of proof is always on the claimant, in this case, anyone, including you, who insists the Eucharist has special powers. At some point, with the crowd here, you are either going to have to put up or shut up. I suggest you retire from the fray.
Re: Brian #170
“Maybe she should not have sent an ellegal death threat using her employer’s property.”
As I appreciate the facts, she didn’t send an illegal death threat; her husband did and there is no indication that she even knew about it until she was called down by the company. The only possible negligence she could possibly be guilty of, aside from marrying a thoughless husband, was in not securing her company’s email account. But in marriages there is a certain amount of trust and one does not anticipate that the spouse would do what he did. At any rate, her negligence doesn’t seem to rise to the level of a firing offense and apparently PZ and some of his minions realize that belatedly. The company, of course, had been alerted to the incident by scores of PZ’s minions who were all too eager to notify them after PZ had published the information they needed. PZ, realizing the injustice that had been done, recanted and reversed his decision to do that in the future. Several of PZ’s minions have posted breath-beating regrets. Little good that does for the poor lady who was only trying to support her three children
#183 Michael Kramer
I deplore Catholics taking over the pledge of allegiance and having meaningless unprovable stuff put in it.
I deplore Catholics who encourage people to have large families and overpopulate the planet.
Crackers are meaningless in comparison.
We’re not bigots. We hate the irrationality, not the irrationalists.
And Foley is being a bit melodramatic, isn’t he? So far the death threats have come from only one side. You know, the side that speaks for Jesus.
you pistol packing, cracker blasting, cyberbray you.
Well I’ve read about 3,000 posts now on this subject and for the first time in post #183 I have finally heard a catholic renounce the death threats.
Since we have people actually claiming that taking a wafer (handed to you) is either stealing or abduction I hope someone gets arrested. Would bail be a box of Ritz?
I see the beginnings of a new musical – Less Miserables. “…that I may find him, Safe behind bars, This I swear by the Stars”.
Damn, I was out for dinner and missed the fun.
These idiots are completely without any semblance of proportion. I guess worshipping a cracker throws off other rational faculties.
Max Verret @247
I’m sorry, do you need help getting back to your own dimension? Because the way you are appreciating facts, they seem to bear little resemblance to what is going on in this one.
What constitutes a “firing offense” is surely up to her company to decide. And do please explain how notifying the company of the offence, major or minor, is wrong. Oh, I have some sympathy for her, but the only one who has done anything actually wrong here is her husband.
@ Chris P
It’s fashionable for young ladies to wear something called “mini”-skirts these days. They do not come anywhere close to covering the knee roll. Now if I were to tell my daughter not to wear a mini-skirt, coupled with a low cut blouse, because it made her more vulnerable to sexual assault she would still bear absolutely no responsibility for – God forbid – being raped. Yes she would have been ill-advised and careless but the blame – in the eyes of your Godless law no less – would rest solely with the assailant.
So yes, Kroll may have been too trusting and careless but the blame (and punishment) should rest solely on Mr. Kroll.
Re: Max Verret
The only possible negligence she could possibly be guilty of, aside from marrying a thoughless husband, was in not securing her company’s email account.
Melanie Kroll has posted comments on Greg Laden’s blog about the email her husband sent. She is not remotely apologetic for the content of the email. She is only sorry that her husband sent it from her work account. And then she goes on to make a number of excuses for his threats.
She is not a poor lady.
Nisbet:
Echo chamber – this from a man who heavily moderates comments. This hypocrite doesn’t have a cyberpopgun. And Orzel doesn’t have a cyberspitwad.
An atheist thinks the religious world-view is whacko, therefore they’re bigots. A religionists world-view has “infidels” burn in hell forever and they’re not bigots?
That sounds pretty accurate. After all, ever hear anyone call Pope Nazinger the vile anti-gay bigot he is?
@vespera:
As a long-time lurker in what is supposed to be a community of freethinkers I was surprised at how quickly I was branded a “concern troll” for disagreeing with everyone else.
I’m sure I don’t recall your specific related entry, but if it was like the rest of the similar: “I don’t see the point of why PZ is being so mean” posts, that you “disagreed” with what PZ was doing was not the reason for labeling such a post “concern trolling”.
But that was all it took for “nonconformists” to call me a name instead of arguing with me.
aside from the fact that this is a non-sensical statement, are you absolutely sure nobody pointed out the flaw in your reasoning, or that someone hadn’t already pointed out the general flaw in the reasoning you were using in the dozens of other posts that missed the point of what PZ was doing?
Did you perhaps post your comment very late in a thread, and fail to notice the dozens of posts that were likely just like yours above it that had already been responded to?
seriously, my post you responded to here was not meant to be condescending.
This one, however, does indeed have a condescending overtone. Intentionally, just to be clear.
#37
When PZ starts pulling crackers out of their houses in the middle of the night and lynching them, we’ll talk. Until then, get a fucking grip on the fastly receding sense of reality you have.
re Max #247
Prove that it wasn’t her that sent the threat. All we have is somebody claiming that she had no knowledge of the email and blaming a husband who may or may not exist.
I know that in my company the computer usage regulations are spelled out very clearly and, as an employee, I have a responsibility to maintain a secure computer. It is also stated in my company’s computer policy that failure to comply with the regulations can be cause for disciplinary actions up to and including termination.
As I only have empirical proof for my own company, I can only theorize that it is similar in others. That being said, I believe that this lady’s problems go beyond her computer.
Brian F: “Read the Bible and maybe you will understand that there is not use of a metaphor here.”
How is it that some Christians think the communion wafer is truly the body of Christ, while others don’t believe in it at all? What kind of loose-ass religion is this, anyway? Can’t you guys get this right after 2000 years?
Which side is Jesus supposed to choose, and why? Explain why Catholicism is correct while all other forms of Christianity are heresy. Go ahead – we’ll listen.
Pete Rooke at #204 – Wow, you have have an atheist acquaintance? Far out, do you know some black people too, or gay people, or black atheist gay people? I am so impressed by your tolerance of others.
Oh, and the rest of you apologists, not you Pete, we have heard the cracker story from you, you can stop.
An open question for the group, why is it that none of the xtian blogs allow open posting? Pharyngula is open to all, even the vile and repulsive like Fadda Guido, err, Fadda J. How about some reciprocity, or is your faith too weak, your god too small?
Finally, at least for this post, I will be glad to help any xtian who wants to shake the shackles of imaginary friends. I will even give you a real email and write back in real time – contact me at my blog. I will not even respond to the hateful attacks with the contempt they deserve, although I may post them, names and addresses omitted, on here for fun. However, I will delete them, again, once I have read them.
Pax Nabisco y’all
PZ has followers? Readers, sure.
I think you should put one of those crackers in a sealed box, and at that point, unobserved, it is both desecrated and pure at the same time. Woo! I think I could start a religion based on that.
PZ: you’ll find it difficult to out-blaspheme the original ceremony. After all, they _eat_ the wafer. That’s natural if it’s just a cracker, but if it’s a transubstaniated gobbet of man-god flesh, then eating it is the most disrespectful, sacreligious, and degrading possible thing to do with it. This was well understood in Roman times, but 2000 years of ritual and rationalization have leached all the flavor out of Jesus’s over-the-top jest.
I say that the only way to satirize a rite so deeply self-satirical is to play the straight man. What would _you_ do if someone gave you a wafer of flesh? Bury it decently, of course; or better yet, cremate it and scatter the ashes. So that’s what I suggest that you do.
Put the wafer in a little coffin and read the obsequies over it. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. All with a straight face, of course.
Not only would this be respectful; it would reveal, by contrast, how disrespectful the original ceremony is.
That way Mr. Donohue could make no profit off your jest.
I guess worshipping a cracker throws off other rational faculties.
not exactly.
it’s forcing a false faith in the idea of a cracker as something sacred and magical in the face of every other sense and sensibility telling one otherwise that throws off rational faculties, necessarily.
that level of dissonance requires the utilization of very strong defense mechanisms to maintain it.
“we are somehow rude and sophomoric.” …..well, when one considers what we are dealing with it might be the only to communicate effectively with the. so here goes: NANA NANA BOO BOO. STICK YOUR HEAD IN DOO DOO. JESUS CAN’T DO EMAIL. JESUS CAN’T DO EMAIL……he just whispers in to the ears of the chosen few because the rest of us are not worthy.
God, now we have people whining “Won’t somebody think of the children?”
Spare me. We have no reason to think the kids are going to wind up stuffing their shoes with newspapers — people have overactive imaginations. And even if they were … it’s because their moron Dad sent a death threat, which Catholics posting on this thread don’t seem too bothered by.
Apparently it’s much worse to admit to receiving a threat, if he’s an atheist, than make one, if he’s a Catholic.
Chuck Kroll seems like a foul human being and I have no sympathy for him. I do have some sympathy for his wife … but, she married the guy and it was her responsibility to protect her email. The kids ARE the victims here, though I think having Mr. Kroll for a parent is likely to do more damage than anything stemming from this uproar.
“What I think he has done, he’s loaded a cyberpistol and he’s cocked it and he’s left it on the table. He may have set something in motion that no one can stop. It was irresponsible, a hell of a thing to do.”
The irony is this guy will probably defend the second amendment quite literally to tooth and nail, yet he’s worried about PZ’s cyberpistol? PZ might as well be squirting a water gun, but hey – it burns..
This whole thing is a joke. I can’t believe it got this big.
OMG this thread!
On the internets gay cyberguys set their cypberpistols on “stunning.”
Only the out gays. The Republican ones hide theirs in airport restrooms.
@72:
Those that consume the host also aren’t suppose to eat or drink for one hour afterwards.
I was raised Catholic and I don’t remember that. I do remember you were supposed to be fasting before receiving communion. But then, that was back before you were allowed to even touch the wafer with your fingers.
[sorry for skipping over a few hundred comments, but they are just coming too fast]
On another note, does anyone else think the “Fr. J” has completely abandoned all pretense at appearing to be a priest and has decided to just revel in his trollness?
@#261 – Too slow to the (cyber)draw. Brian already left.
I guess we’ll never find out why there are so many contradictory sects of Christianity (let alone all the other forms of religion)…
#254
Just about anyone who works for a company that uses IT has to undergo IT training. Upon completing said training, you are responsible for upholding the company’s IT policies. Such policies include IT security, securing your passwords, e-mail, etc.
Even if you didn’t have “training”, you are still responsible for the IT policy.
At the very least, Mrs. Kroll IS at fault for not properly securing her COMPANY e-mail. If this has happened before (i.e. if the hubby has been using her e-mail account with her consent), then she can be held accountable for messages sent from her COMPANY account.
Is that a firing offense? That’s really a company policy.
Is the husband a douche? Yes. Are death threats illegal? Absolutely.
I don’t think I’ve seen anyone who thinks Mrs. Kroll is some sort of evil mastermind in a plot to harass PZ. But as many MANY posters have pointed out, neither is she pure as the driven snow in this.
She failed to secure her company e-mail. That is totally her fault. It’s not as huge as death threats. But that part of it is. Her. Fault.
Would I have fired her? Probably not (retaking the IT training would be a must though). But the policy may not have any flexibility in it. Sucks, but the company has a right to reduce it’s liability when someone sends death threats from their server.
Blaming the posters who alerted the company to a death threat? Let me call the waaaaahmbulance for you.
“What I think he has done, he’s loaded a cyberpistol and he’s cocked it and he’s left it on the table. He may have set something in motion that no one can stop. It was irresponsible, a hell of a thing to do.”
The irony is this guy will probably defend the second amendment quite literally to tooth and nail, yet he’s worried about PZ’s cyberpistol? PZ might as well be squirting a water gun, but hey – it burns..
This whole thing is a joke. I can’t believe it got this big.
Maybe all the prayers other catholics will be saying for the benefit of the Kroll children will inspire god to do something about it.
Wanna take bets?
What’s more likely, though, is that the decent people amongst the catholics in their area will reach out and help them. Which, of course, will be touted as a ‘miracle’ or the sort of thing only christians could achieve in the face of such overwhelming atheist persecution.
That, or a book deal.
mayhempix, #239: Nisbet wrote “fellow atheists and free speech advocates” before quoting Sullivan, so he was likely citing him as a representative of that latter, so-broad-as-to-be-nearly-meaningless category. Though the juxtaposition was a bit confusing, and Nisbet’s post was especially asinine… for a review of Sullivan’s hypocrisy on this matter, see bad’s post here.
“What would _you_ do if someone gave you a wafer of flesh?”
If that flesh was Jesus? I’d nail the fucker to a cross, that’s what I’D do!
Death threats are a federal offense, a felony. People routinely get sent to prison for these. Cameron Moore threatened someone from his workplace at Agilent, got convicted and sent to prison. He also got sued and owes his victims 1.1 million dollars. Agilent itself is being sued.
The flower company is potentially liable for millions of dollars in damages for colluding and enabling the commission of a felony.
PZ is being extraordinarily nice here. He could file a complaint with the FBI cybercrimes unit. With the amount of evidence available, Chucky would end up in prison.
We Catholics can rely on a moral text that governs our behaviour. Were you to as well you would realize that you punish the sinner and not the sinned against. Those children do not deserve the pain and cramps that could arise from not eating tonight. They do not deserve to make do with shoes stuffed with newspapers, and borrowed from their father, during P.E. because they couldn’t afford to purchase a new pair. They do not deserve having to stand in the “reduced lunch” line at school because they can no longer afford the full rate of $2.50 each day.
You people just can’t keep your stupidity and hypocrisy to yourselves, can you? You want people to respect you because you’re so fucking stupid and dishonest that you blame PZ for the consequences of someone else sending him a death threat — consequences enacted by the guy’s wife’s employer? You yourself shit all over your “moral text” by claiming that it justifies your own blatant immorality.
Icthyic: it’s forcing a false faith in the idea of a cracker as something sacred and magical in the face of every other sense and sensibility telling one otherwise that throws off rational faculties, necessarily.
It’s actually an interesting question. I took a class long, long ago with Rappaport, who studied religious ritual (“Pigs for the Ancestors”). He thought that an irrational belief was necessary for the function of ritual.
Recalling long-ago hazy days, the idea was that religion functions as a kind of context for Austen’s performative utterances (things like “I thee wed”, where the statement is not a statement of fact, but a statement that creates a fact). Underneath that is required a guarantee of honesty, of the fact that you accept the ritual as being efficacious, and not simply “play”. In general, underneath all language there has to be something at least pre-rational — after all, language is about a real world, it isn’t the real world itself.
So, an irrational belief at the heart of a religious ritual is kind of a loyalty test — it guarantees that you’ve agreed not to analyze the ritual as a series of statements of fact, or some kind of imaginative play, but as directly linked to the underlying reality. When I say, I thee wed, It Is So — I’ve done it in front of the magic fairy.
You believe it in your bones, because otherwise you couldn’t claim The Magic Fairy; as a rational statement the “before God” could be a lie, but it would be an obvious lie, so therefore it isn’t a rational statement at all, and the concomitants are therefore not rational statements of fact since they’re based on a clearly irrational statement; “I thee wed” then is beyond Truth and False, but just is, it becomes a pre-rational (or irrational) statement that causes reality.
Or that’s what I got. I guess us seculars have had to replace the irrationality of Fairies with more human irrationalities — “I love you forever unconditionally” would be an example, since it’s obviously not a statement that could possibly true, or more concrete insanities like “America: Right or Wrong,” another insane statement with a religious flavor.
“Those that consume the host also aren’t suppose to eat or drink for one hour afterwards.”
‘Cause you’re not supposed to eat in church. You’d still be sitting there waiting for the priest to finish up his sermon on the logic behind the Holy Trinity. Duh!
“I deplore Catholics taking over the pledge of allegiance and having meaningless unprovable stuff put in it.”
Resoundingly seconded! Add forcing my kids to say it into that!
Croatia, at the urging of the Catholic church, has recently passed a law requiring businesses (other than flower shops, newsstands, and bakeries) to close on Sundays.
The Catholic church has absolutely no problem with oppression.
We Catholics can rely on a moral text that governs our behaviour.
Have you executed your child for talking back yet? Do you make your women separate themselves from the men when they’re menstruating? Shun men who have sex with those women during that time of the month?
“The people who’ve sent them to me haven’t mentioned having to disrupt anything”
How how many do you have now?
Re: Tulse @217
“Releasing datails of a possible felony abetting violation of her employer’s IT policy.”
Maybe TZ should see that the authorities prosecute her and send her up for a few years. Then he would not only have deprived her of her job but deprived her three children of a mother.
What a GREAT GUY.
However, in light of the breath-beating and contrition in some of the posts, I don’t think that’s going to happen. Even in the deepest recesses of the atheist mind there must be some modicum of compassion.
Hey you made the front page of my site. You are not supposed to eat and drink one hour before Mass, to post 281. Where did our soul come from??
or more concrete insanities like “America: Right or Wrong,” another insane statement with a religious flavor.
Here’s the sane version:
http://www.bartleby.com/73/1641.html
However, in light of the breath-beating and contrition in some of the posts, I don’t think that’s going to happen. Even in the deepest recesses of the atheist mind there must be some modicum of compassion.
Posted by: Max Verret | July 16, 2008 9:13 PM
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
I guess the outraged Foley has Chekhov’s gun in mind:
“If you say in the first chapter that there is a cyber-pistol hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. “
Have any of these trolls actually met Dr. Myers? He’s such a nice guy in person. He doesn’t come across as the kind of person they think he must be.
(It’s good they haven’t met his readers, though. All those tentacles, big bulging muscles, and evil gazes would send them running!)
“‘Cause you’re not supposed to eat in church. You’d still be sitting there waiting for the priest to finish up his sermon on the logic behind the Holy Trinity. Duh!”
Then they really shouldn’t put vending machines at the back!
“Insulting to the Irish!!”
Did I miss something, the man is an American. Speaking as a Scot, born to a Dublin girl, who spent a lot of his childhood in Ireland; who is total at home in both countries and who knows Ireland quite well thank you very much, I have no idea how braying can be described as…. Gaelist??? (would that be the word?)
Even if it were insulting to the Irish… again he isn’t Irish!
Come to think of it I’ve come across not a few braying Irish men in my time, usually staggering out of O’Rourke’s in Blackrock, Co.Dublin on a Friday night. Usually in my company!
Tom Piatak at 55,
Yeah, I know, a long time ago. Hard to keep up.
“only people who are supposed to do that are Catholics in a state of grace, i.e., not conscious of grave sin, and they are supposed to immediately consume the host, not keep it. These rules are well known. Those taking the host with the intention of desecrating it are engaged in fraud and theft.”
So, if someone is a Catholic (they keep you on the records forever, you know) but no longer believes in god, so doesn’t believe in “sin”, they pretty much can do what they please with it. The “state of grace” is just as much a made up construct as “the host”. It’s like these girls that are “reclaiming their virginity”. OK, whatever.
Obviously, it’s difficult for you to understand that this is a mind crime, not a real one. Eat it and shit it? Fine, but only as long as you’re thinking holy thoughts. If I took it and was thinking “fuck you catholic church” as it dissolved, you’d probably also call it a crime. You aren’t very convincing.
Pathetic, really.
#162Wonny in Hooston
Whatsa’ matter Snoogums? We all know you’re a Concern Troll.
Maybe TZ should see that the authorities prosecute her and send her up for a few years. Then he would not only have deprived her of her job but deprived her three children of a mother.
What a GREAT GUY.
Maybe Max Verret should torture kittens. Then he would have made all the children cry.
What a GREAT GUY.
You all might want to read this:
http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1461
They have quotes from PZ criticizing the Danish cartoons, and say, “He even went so far as to say that Muslims ‘have cause to be furious.'”
Does make him look hypocritical.
Pete Rook: t’s fashionable for young ladies to wear something called “mini”-skirts these days. They do not come anywhere close to covering the knee roll. Now if I were to tell my daughter not to wear a mini-skirt, coupled with a low cut blouse, because it made her more vulnerable to sexual assault she would still bear absolutely no responsibility for – God forbid – being raped. Yes she would have been ill-advised and careless but the blame – in the eyes of your Godless law no less – would rest solely with the assailant.
So yes, Kroll may have been too trusting and careless but the blame (and punishment) should rest solely on Mr. Kroll.
Pete, you have the temerity to compare a woman being raped, and it’s “justification” that she was tempting “men” (scare quotes appropriate) by wearing a short skirt, with someone being fired because they didn’t follow explicit company policies?
Wow, another example of the moral monstrosity that is bred in these “churches”. My God, what a scum-bag you must be to believe these two cases are at all analogous.
Since you are obviously a cretin, let me spell it out for you. In the first case, someone with the perfect legal right to wear whatever the hell she wants to wear is assaulted and given possibly permanent psychological and physiological damage due to the perverse fantasies of someone else, that have in actuality nothing to do with the so-called “underdress” but is broadly understood to be due to actualizing fantasies of power and abuse.
In case two, someone agreed to a set of policies as a precondition of employment — aka, signed a contract. She was found in breach of that contract, and the contract was terminated. In essence, no different from getting your car repo’d because a check you put in the bank bounced. Yes, too bad, but no “punishment” is involved, it is simply a question of contractual obligation.
Really, only someone who is completely blind, beyond autistic, could possibly come up with such an offensive analogy.
Max Verret #285
Who’s TZ?
The thing you forget, Max, is that the woman’s husband committed a felony. Because she likely violated company policy by allowing, intentionally or unintentionally, her husband to commit a crime using company property, the company fired her. She is an accessory to a crime. Mrs. Kroll became a liability to the company. That’s why the company fired her.
Regardless of what Foley may think, it wasn’t atheists who sent death threats.
Chuck Kroll seems like a foul human being
even his notpology was disturbing.
Does make him look hypocritical.
Yes, well, that’s what the quote mining and mischaracterizations are intended to do … or are you saying you actually swallowed it?
max verret:
“It’s fashionable for young ladies to wear something called “mini”-skirts these days. They do not come anywhere close to covering the knee roll. Now if I were to tell my daughter not to wear a mini-skirt, coupled with a low cut blouse, because it made her more vulnerable to sexual assault she would still bear absolutely no responsibility for – God forbid – being raped. Yes she would have been ill-advised and careless but the blame – in the eyes of your Godless law no less – would rest solely with the assailant.”
Right. And my late mother-in-law should have known better than to wear that too-sexy flannel ankle-length nightgown the night someone climbed in bed with her and said,”You know you want this.”
You are a fucking moron, max.
Dlux in #261 asked a good question: “Which side is Jesus supposed to choose, and why? Explain why Catholicism is correct while all other forms of Christianity are heresy.”
In Catholic grammar school the nuns drilled into us that Catholics and only Catholics go to heaven. Everyone else, including non-Catholic Christians, go to hell. I have heard Fundamentalist Christians say Catholics go to hell, including Mother Theresa.
This is why I’m convinced the religious people who think they have the best moral values, because their morals came from Mr. God, have no moral values at all. Nothing could be more disgusting than a belief that your cult and your cult only escapes the wrath of the Magic Man.
PeteRook: And I almost missed it — you put your own daughter in this fantasy. That somehow, the punishment of your daughter via rape for disobeying you was analogous to someone losing a job for not following company policy.
Lord, I hope your daughter gets out of that house quickly.
#286: johnpreiss “Hey you made the front page of my site.”
This?
http://johnpreiss.wordpress.com/god-given-roles-of-husband-and-wife/
“The vocation of most women is motherhood. Guiding girls to prepare for a working career is harmful when attention should be given to prepare them to be full-time homemakers.”
That’s quite a site.
One searches in vain for an adult among PZ Myers’ amen chorus.
truth machine regarding your #287, I am reminded of another quote about right or wrong, Mark Twain wrote about the US actions in the Phillipines:
“Against our traditions we are now entering upon an unjust and trivial war, a war against a helpless people, and for a base object — robbery. At first our citizens spoke out against this thing, by an impulse natural to their training. Today they have turned, and their voice is the other way. What caused the change? Merely a politician’s trick — a high-sounding phrase, a blood-stirring phrase which turned their uncritical heads: Our Country, right or wrong! An empty phrase, a silly phrase. It was shouted by every newspaper, it was thundered from the pulpit, the Superintendent of Public Instruction placarded it in every schoolhouse in the land, the War Department inscribed it upon the flag. And every man who failed to shout it or who was silent, was proclaimed a traitor — none but those others were patriots. To be a patriot, one had to say, and keep on saying, “Our Country, right or wrong,” and urge on the little war. Have you not perceived that that phrase is an insult to the nation?”
Strikes a cord in several ways with me.
Pax Nabisco
Does make him look hypocritical.
beware of quotemining.
tell me, after you read this:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/07/desecration_its_a_fun_hobby.php
whether or not PZ is being hypocritical.
Dr. Myers, check what you have recieved. If any of them are postmarked “Corpus Christi, Texas” you have recieved stolen property. The Cathederal in Corpus Christi was entered and the tabernacle (where the Eucharist is stored) was vandalized and broken into.
Other than that, turn the Eucharists you have recieved over to the nearest Catholic Church and get a life.
CYBERPISTOLS ARMED AND READY SIR
Thought: Why does man kill? He kills for food. And not only food: frequently there must be a beverage.
-Woody Allen
you have the temerity to compare a woman being raped, and it’s “justification” that she was tempting “men” (scare quotes appropriate) by wearing a short skirt, with someone being fired because they didn’t follow explicit company policies?
I will concede that she may also have been tempting “women.” These days you just don’t know.
She was fired for being careless and not logging out (presumably). I was not trying to draw a moral equivalence between the two acts but rather commentating on the responsibility of each individual.
Say for instance I left the keys in the car and had it stolen. My insurance would not cover the cost because I violated my contract. My mistake, yes. However, the ultimate responsibility rests with the thief (in this case the husband).
The point was PZ was extremely negligent in that he posted the email with all accompanying information for his acolytes to harass and abuse the sender, irrespective of their culpability. As usual he failed to think before he acted in an effort to court controversy and reap revenge for some admittedly nasty emails.
Oh, come on! Obviously Foley isn’t afraid of violence from PZ. He just wants to have a bunch more security guards around the RNC. Security men. Big… Strong… Strapping… Men! ;)
@296:
Indeed, it does make Bill Donohue look hypocritical.
Look at the bottom of the release:
Hoping for more death threats, no doubt.
Thanks for pointing that out.
One searches in vain for an adult among PZ Myers’ amen chorus.
Posted by: George
Hi Ron. Sockpuppet much?
EV
Seriously, stop. You already look like a fool.
Say for instance I left the keys in the car and had it stolen.
say, for instance, that the issue in front of us is quite clear and simple enough that it doesn’t actually require hypotheticals for comparison.
Standard fundie dogma is that the Catholic church is the church of Satan and the Pope works for the Antichrist. They say it often. Hagee, the Texas bigot for Jesus just came out with another anti-Catholic tirade a few months ago. Jack Chick says it in comics.
The Catholics all say the Protestant churches are fake. Ratzinger just said that again a while ago.
Apparently no one cares much these days. After 400 years of horrific war, they just got tired of endless rounds of murdering each other.
Oh, come on! Obviously Foley isn’t afraid of violence from PZ. He just wants to have a bunch more security guards around the RNC. Security men. Big… Strong… Strapping… Men! ;)
Has Foley been hanging out with former VA Congressman Ed Schrock (phone sex line), former FL Congressman Foley (we know the chat messages) or Senator Craig (I still think Miss Richfield needs tours of the MSP Craig Loo) or Senator Graham?
As for what to do with the wafers he’s received, might I suggest PZ transubstantiate them into the true substance and essence of George Carlin?
Ichthyic #307
In light of new evidence, I adjust my beliefs.
You already look like a fool.
I’m wondering if Ron is at least half parrot?
since that’s what we’ve been telling him for days now.
Dammit EV, you are clever.
You just proved I was a “concern troll” for caring if you look like a fool.
OK, how about this go fuck yourself.
“Other than that, turn the Eucharists you have recieved over to the nearest Catholic Church”
Better yet, call the Church Police!
“turn the Eucharists you have recieved over to the nearest Catholic Church”
kmerian, did you elect yourself to be the policeman of scienceblogs? Go fuck yourself.
kmerian,
No doubt unconsecrated crackers have been sent to PZ as well. Are you claiming to be able to tell the difference between ‘just a cracker’ and the eucharist?
Can you explain how you’d go about that?
However, the ultimate responsibility rests with the thief (in this case the husband).
The point was PZ was extremely negligent
The point is that you’re a hypocritical pile of rotting garbage trying to pass itself off as a human being.
Ichthyic
WTF is a parrot?
OK I’ll be a full parrot and parrot my previous post.
Go fuck yourself.
Awk. Polly want a cracker.
This box of holy crackers cracks me up.
Here’s my (attempted) post at
Polly Prissypants’Matt Nisbet’s blog. I highly doubt the Framer in Chief will let this kind of candid criticism sully his electronic stoop, but here’s hoping I’m wrong:Mr. Nisbet:
1. You wrote: “Even fellow atheists and free speech advocates are troubled. Here’s what Andrew Sullivan has to say”
You know that Sullivan is a Catholic, right? And no, the “and free speech” phrase doesn’t mitigate your mistake.
2. You wrote: “In a recent interview on the podcast Point of Inquiry, host DJ Grothe asked PZ if he worried that scienceblogs.com was becoming better known as “atheistblogs.com.” It’s a question that merits serious consideration, especially in light of recent events.”
You realize that PZ gave a cogent (even if you disagree with it) answer to DJ on that question, right? You were going to acknowledge that, rather than disingenuously pretending that PZ offered no reasonable response, right?
3. You wrote: “What alarms me the most about the incident, however, is the major perceptual hit that the scienceblogs.com community and brand continues to take because of PZ’s antics.”
And that brings us right to the heart of why so many people – people who would otherwise listen to the points you make – have tuned you out. You display all the classic signs of a ethically bankrupt salesman and demagogue:
a. You’re never “angry,” or “outraged,” you’re merely “alarmed,” or “concerned,” or “troubled.” Anyone who gets angry is never justified in your worldview; they’ve failed in Framing World.
b. You claim to care about the substance of issues, but your rhetoric gives the lie. You talk incessantly of “perceptions” and “brands.” You consistently fail to address direct, relevant criticisms from your opponents. When they challenge you to define the line between massaging rhetoric to draw in consensus (a reasonable approach) and selling out to win fair weather friends, you don’t respond.
c. You are – there’s no subtle way to frame this – an insufferably prissy hand-wringer. You fret and worry and twist your hankie into a knot over the actions of outspoken, vocal opponents of religious nonsense. You simper about how alienating and, gosh, just mean we all are. All the while, you ignore the fact that your conciliatory (and that’s being kind) approach has accomplished absolutely zero in affecting public discourse on important scientific and church/state separation issues.
Come on, surprise me, Mr. Nisbet – let this post go through.
PZ, this is really important. You need to get a hold of some erector set parts, and some old PCI cards from a dead computer – or any kind of circuit board with chips on it – and screw the mess together into a vaguely assault-rifle looking thing. That’s the ‘cyberpistol’ . Then, pose your beautiful octopus as holding the ‘cyberpistol’, pointed at a christ cracker. Photo the result for us to enjoy. If you have a good friend who takes good photos, have them take the photo.
(P.S. Since Foley seems to think the RNC is threatened – does that mean the RNC is a cracker? Or does Foley think he is Christ? I’m confused.)
#325
And what would happen if a priest thought that one of the crackers wasn’t consecrated, and consecrated it again?
Super-concentrated extra-holy Jesus flesh(TM), that’s what! Twice the Jesus, half the fat!
Posted by: Pete Rooke | July 16, 2008 8:00 PM
I’m glad you have a book that tells you how to be a good person. We free-thinkers have figured out how (and why) to do that all on our own, so we threw out the user’s manual.
If you need a book to tell you what is moral or immoral, right or wrong, and good or bad, then maybe you wouldn’t do well out on your own anyway, so it’s probably for the better that you have someone dictating your morality to you.
One searches in vain for an adult among PZ Myers’ amen chorus.
Posted by: George | July 16, 2008 9:26 PM
That’s what happens when you wear a god bag over your head George.
Blindness is a given.
Are you sure the crackers you’re receiving have been turned into Jesus?
Super-concentrated extra-holy Jesus flesh(TM), that’s what! Twice the Jesus, half the fat!
Oustanding! Does it work to give Michelob Ultra any taste?
In light of new evidence, I adjust my beliefs.
no problem. I’m sure you’ll be able to do the same for me tomorrow.
that’s the wonder of embracing reason instead of superstitious nonsense.
WE get to adjust our thinking as new evidence arises.
I do hope that at least a few of the religionauts can see the value of that, embrace it for themselves, and begin a slow descent back to reality.
I’m encouraged by the few that have posted in these threads, claiming to be Catholic, that apparently have been stimulated to try (I have posted a good example several times now).
@ “the truth machine, OM”
“…Put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another…” Colossians 3:8,9
Here are some things that we can do without in this life. When we put on the new man through Christ, then we can put off the old man with all his evil deeds.
“Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.” Psalms 37:8
You are a fucking moron, max.
You’re right, wrpd, but for the wrong reasons … Max didn’t write that.
Are you sure the crackers you’re receiving have been turned into Jesus?
exactly as sure as the Catholics are, I’m sure.
Well I just bought a 1,000 Cavanagh communion bread wafers on eBay. Thanks miui!!!!!!
Now if I can just find a priest for sale…
I nominate Snickers Bars as the thinking persons communion wafer. Even though Kit Kat bars are really more “wafer” like, “Snickers Really Satisfies”.
If I get my Cavanagh wafers consecrated and have my wife lay one each into the bottom of her delicious stuffed mushrooms, do they become Magic Mushrooms?
What next. I say go for the wine/sherry/blood… whatever.
Man, I’m gettin’ hungry!
I will post pix of me desecrating the consecrated wafers in solidarity with PZ. Can a Deacon consecrate wafers?
Oustanding! Does it work to give Michelob Ultra any taste?
Then would it be liquid Jesus? Because that makes my brain go to a dark place.
Pete Rooke #311
What is it with these concern trolls? This one can’t be a conservative, because conservatives are down on coddling criminals.
A guy threatens to kill PZ. Besides being the antithesis of giving a warm, fuzzy feeling to PZ, communicating a threat over the internet is a crime. This particular crime is not a “slap your wrist, you’re a bad boy, pay $50 and court costs” misdemeanor. It’s a “you can spend years in substandard housing with some very nasty neighbors” felony. So why is Pete Rooke whining about PZ’s negligence? Does he automatically give every criminal a Get Out of Jail Free card? Or only the Catholic criminals?
Super-concentrated extra-holy Jesus flesh(TM), that’s what! Twice the Jesus, half the fat!
LOL
@Pete Rooke
You think your stupid godbotting is going to get you respect? You’re a fucking troll piece of shit with not an honest bone in your body. You would do yourself a favor by leaving this place; you could pretend that you’re following your bullshit “moral text” and turning the other cheek.
What does Dick Cheney have to do with this?
Then would it be liquid Jesus? Because that makes my brain go to a dark place.
*resisting……*
*gives up*
Jesus enemas?
Alejandro, #27:
I have a brother who is convinced that some of them secretly smoke meth. ‘I mean, look at the Patriot act. Only meth can make you that fucking paranoid.’
We deserve basic human respect whether you agree with us or not. What you (as well as those people who take the Eucharist) do is sacrilege to us. It’s hateful, disrespectful, and wrong. You don’t have to believe to show some basic respect.
The Catholic Church uses its hateful teaching to take away a woman’s right to choose. The Catholic Church uses its hateful teachings to deprive gays and lesbians of their basic human rights. When the Catholic Church stops being hateful, disrespectful, and wrong to those who disagree with them then they can start complaining about the actions of others towards them.
Jesus enemas?
I was thinking putrefied flesh, but I’ve been watching too much Bones lately.
Also: ew.
Ah, Pete Rooke. The guy who writes about getting his guide for behavior from the Bible, and about rape as punishment for his daughter disobeying him. Well, offering up your virgin daughter for a gang rape is the action of a Godly man in the Bible, so really thinking your daughter is at fault for dressing in a short dress and low-cut top (even if you deny that feeling) is a Godly action. He should have brought her over to the rapist to really show his devotion to God.
c. You are – there’s no subtle way to frame this – an insufferably prissy hand-wringer.
LOL
disagree or not as to what Nisbet’s actual motivations are, I rather like that.
…and no, I’d bet money he won’t post it.
Are you sure the crackers you’re receiving have been turned into Jesus?
How can one tell? What objective scientific test would allow an observer to determine whether or not a given cracker has been consecrated or not?
Arguably the Catholic League and Foley have little to disagree. Reminds me of how Colonel Kurtz in Apocalypse Now says:
“We train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders won’t allow them to write “fuck” on their airplanes because it’s obscene!”
Just remembered that out of the blue. Oh and by the way, PZ, remember to charge your cyberpistol mega5000xx! Be kindly reminded though, when they do it, it’s freedom of speech; when you do it, it’s hate crime. Mm-hm..
PR: “Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.”
Pete, I guess your deformed and perverse conscience has blinded you to the actually meaning of these lines.
You’re not to repress your anger (and thereby release it with perverse rape fantasies and self-justifying familial abuse). You’re supposed to stop being angry.
That latter is much harder. Doing the former is much, much worse than just expressing your anger — it turns you into a inhuman monster. It’s particularly bad when you fantasize that magic has released you from anger — since then you can’t actually judge your own anger without destroying your self fantasy.
What an evil ideology. Get thee to a therapist before the damage you’re producing get worse.
Re: wrpd #301
Your daughter’s attire might be considered a mitigating circumstance at trial. So, where the law would place blame, neither of us knows.
You referred to me as a f*****g moron. In Christian charity, I cannot return the invictive.
Besides being a fucking moron, you’re a prissy prig.
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Desecracating a consacrated Host will call more courses upon you! To both you and those who will give it(them) to you.
Those who are protesting are doing it out of reverance for their Lord, love for him, the Church and you. However you make the last choice.
The Lamb of God takes away the sins of the humble but his wrath is upon the wicked ones. It is interesting why would anyone do violence to a lamb!
He does not need anyone’s defense. He has conquered. To those who are frustrated, here are consoling words for them:
“Weep not; lo, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.”
May he have mercy on your soul.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat.
Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit as it was in the beginning, is now, and forever Amen.
I can’t even draw a pistol freehand. How did you do that?!
Desecracating a consacrated Host will call more courses upon you!
PZ, will you be able to pick up an extra class per semester?
“The LORD shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.”
Does the LORD laugh at peple because he knows they’re gonna get tortured?
“For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.”
Those are from Psalms 37 too! For yet a little while! 3000 years ago! No worries!
HOLY SHIT! I’m afraid that evil PZ Meyers will come for other religious symbols next!
BE WARNED MY PASTAFARIAN BRETHEREN! HIDE YOUR MERCATO AND ATLAS PASTA MACHINES, LEST THE ILK OF MYERS BREAK INTO YOUR HOMES TO ABSCOND WITH THE HOLY ITEMS THAT ALLOW US TO BRING FORTH THE NUTRITIONAL EMBODIMENT OF OUR LORD FSM!
We too shall contact the authorities demanding more protection from these most vile of bigots! Perhaps we should arm ourselves for further protection! Stock up on flower and bullets now!
Holy crap PZ, what a bunch of hipocritical f’ing nutjobs! How diluded and twisted are these fundies?
“… and his followers”? WTF?? I’ve been an atheist since I was a teenager and I’m now 50. Just because I read this blog doesn’t mean I’m a “follower” of anything or anyone. I don’t think PZ seeks disciples, and I doubt that anyone here feels like someones follower. These Republican morons make me so glad that I don’t live in the US. Scary place since the fundies took over the administration.
I do completely support the keeping of church and state separate, and the keeping of ID and creationist nonsense out of the classroom. And I do like watching the fireworks generated on this blog. Hell, I wasted a huge chunk of my weekend reading the bazillion comments in response to crackergate. The idiocy of humanity truly amazes me.
I think there is one thing that atheists here and elsewhere fail to understand about true believers. When we criticize their beliefs, and ridicule things like transubstantiation, we just don’t have the capacity to absorb the fact that anyone could take that nonsense seriously, so we don’t get what the big deal is when we ridicule it. To us it’s probably not much more serious than saying their pet dog is ugly. They don’t have the investment in it to make it matter “that much”. But for these people, when you criticize their beliefs you may think it’s “just the beliefs”, but you are actually casually rejecting and ridiculing something on which they base their lives, and for the very religious, it’s the core of their existence. I’m pretty sure that we don’t grasp the gravity of the situation for them, because to us it sounds like batshit craziness. But they don’t separate the beliefs from themselves. It defines them. My inlaws are like this, and they could no more separate their beliefs from the core of their lives than they could fly to the moon. I think that on the subject of religion they are nuts, and they know I don’t believe what they do (and they know their daughter doesn’t either), but to keep some civility we just leave it alone. I’m not going to change them and they aren’t going to change me. You choose the battles you have a chance to win.
I’m not suggesting that we stop pointing up the nonsense for what it is. It’s time for atheists to get out of the closet. But I am saying that if you toss darts at these people, you should expect the kind of reaction you saw. Religious wars haven’t started over a golf game gone wrong. They start because people are totally invested in the insanity of faith in some mythology or other (with a heaping spoonful of tribalism, usually). I’ve spent a lifetime debating these people. They wouldn’t know a logical argument if it bit them in the ass. It’s a waste of time. They believe, and that trumps rationality.
One last comment. I agree with the people who have said that all the swearing and name calling is casting us in a bad light. I played rugby for many years, so it’s not like I have sensitive ears, but the vulgarity detracts from any points you are trying to make. And please stop using the word “cunt” as a pejorative. It happens to be a most lovely part of the female anatomy, the source of new life, the power center of the species. Give it a bit of respect. If you must stray from intelligent use of language to the arena of vulgarity, find more appropriate terms to degrade them. A cunt is a beautiful thing.
NAB,
Please ask your god to bless you with greater typing/spelling skills and reading comprehension.
I can’t even draw a pistol freehand. How did you do that?!
google “ascii art”
There are online programs that will convert photographs into ascii.
llewelly: I have a brother who is convinced that some of them secretly smoke meth. ‘I mean, look at the Patriot act. Only meth can make you that fucking paranoid.’
I read it was the prescription sleep “aids” a lot of politicians use so they can go days with out sleep and then catch up quickly — the combo of Ambien and Halcion, with some uppers to get them going again.
Meth is for poor folks. The real shit you get with prescriptions.
Rooke is a delusional moron. His book doesn’t make Catholics any better than anyone else in the world, regardless of religion or lack thereof. Didn’t do Chuck any good, for example. The big problem with xianity today especially in the USA is not that xians are no better than anyone else, but that some of the sects and some of the members are far, far worse.
I wonder if anyone has ever assembled a complete Jebus out of the wafers.
That would be one helluva an entree. I remember the artist who made one out of chocolate. Donawhore wasn’t too happy about that either.
It reminds me of an Outer Lim deceased’s its episode called The Sin Eaters who eat food placed around the body to absorb the sins. The mother tricked her son to eat the food around her dead husband by starving him for days. It turned out the father had been an official Sin Eater and was full of everyone else’s sins. As he eats the kids eyes roll up into his head as he takes them all in. Now that’s what I call concentrated sin.
And remember, it might Jebus you swallow, but who is it when it exits the lower orifice?
There are online programs that will convert photographs into ascii.
And here I thought all this time that the ascii stuff was a work of typing genius. The world makes a little more sense now.
But it’s still awesome. :)
You can have my cyber pistol when you pry it from my cold dead cyber fingers!
To all the xtians and catholics who spew hatred on this blog, or in emails to any of the participants in this sad little story of oppression. Try reading you own bible about love and what it means. I don’t have much truck with the Bible, and certainly not with Paul, but I like this piece from Corinthians, not sure how it got past the censors. Not given the reference numbers, assume you can read on your own.
Oh, yeah, I know, satan can speak scripture, thanks in advance for that quote.
“If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.”
Pax Nabisco and off to bed.
#368 Sorry about the cut and paste error… here it is again:
I wonder if anyone has ever assembled a complete Jebus out of the wafers. That would be one helluva an entree. I remember the artist who made one out of chocolate. Donawhore wasn’t too happy about that either.
It reminds me of an Outer Limits episode called The Sin Eaters who eat food placed around the body to absorb the sins. The mother tricked her son to eat the food around her dead husband by starving him for days. It turned out the father had been an official Sin Eater and was full of everyone else’s sins. As he eats the kids eyes roll up into his head as he takes them all in. Now that’s what I call concentrated sin.
And remember, it might Jebus you swallow, but who is it when it exits the lower orifice?
Wow. I am not sure why that idiot (Foley) would want to compare the Irish with jackasses, which both he and Donahue are, but…whatever rocks your boat.
If I wanted to, I know that I could “score” a consecrated host without any problems, and causing no disruption or harm to any human. It’s not hard. I have no desire to to so, but it could be done quite easily.
I think I understand the post at #358 – if you take a consecrated host, you will start to realize what BS the superstition is, your mind will open up, and you will take more courses and get educated.
Sounds good to me.
What puzzles me about this whole thing is that even if PZ posted a video of some wafers be “desecrated” somehow, why would anyone even believe that they had benn consecrated? Seems to me that if you are capable of believing in transubstantiation, you’d be capable of believing PZ is lying about the wafer being consecrated.
And I also can’t understand how it can possibly be a criminal offense to destroy something that is supposed to be destroyed (by eating) anyway?
Pete Rook: Atheists the cause of starving children? The rich want and need the poor to give alms so they feel better. Maybe there are just too many people on the planet?
We should give thanks to the Pope and his mindless followers for his absurd stance on contraception. Overpopulation is going to destroy our civilization by famine, pandemics, and war. The religious wingnuts will welcome it as the Rapture.
I’m down with Canuck. Figures a Canadian would have something sensible to say. Damn hosers, they’re always so rational and peaceful. And they do love their pussy.
LIVE STREAMING SQUID DISECTION
FYI. Just in case you’re interested, yaknow.
Miracles aren’t enough for you? You have to ask the impossible, too?
Sheesh. <grin>
Just to inject a little levity into the glum despair Catholics must feel here on this thread i present the following reminder of the value of the Catholic Faith.
There is absolutely nothing you can do to the Body of Christ. There is nothing that could be worse than what He suffered during His Passion and what He continues to suffer today at the hands of His children. What you do, you do out of vanity and ignorance. Far more troubling to me are the persons who have provided you with the Host – especially if they call themselves Catholic. Far more troubling to me are those Catholics who receive the Body and Blood unworthily either knowingly or unknowingly. Your stunt is no more than satan’s temptation of Christ to test God. Your stunt is no more than the shouts of the crowd who cried out, “He saved others; himself he cannot save.” You offer nothing new or original. However, Christ can save even you. I most sincerely forgive you and pray for your soul. Don’t worry, I know you don’t believe. I do. That is enough.
Pax vobiscum,
Diane
“Desecracating a consacrated Host will call more courses upon you!”
Wait… you mean if we don’t properly and reverently eat the jesus cookie, god’s gonna keep coming back until we do? How many courses? Is the main course lasagna?
Because if I can get lasagna by first passing up the jesus cracker and the jesus salad, that’s what I’m gonna do!
“There is absolutely nothing you can do to the Body of Christ. There is nothing that could be worse than what He suffered during His Passion and what He continues to suffer today at the hands of His children.”
Then why are your panties in a bunch?
I wonder if anyone has ever assembled a complete Jebus out of the wafers.
I had to go digging for the quote, but I found it!
Eddie Izzard:
“All right: eat this cheese it is my central nervous system, all right? All right, all right, listen to this: eat these chicken drumsticks, they are my legs. Eat these carrots, they are my arms. Eat this tomato it is my head. And eat these oysters, they are my kneecaps.”
“If you do that, dad, your holy communion is going to have priests going round with lots of trays going, ‘Who ordered the body of Christ, then?’ “
@ Everbleed #376
Thanks. Our national animal is the beaver. The “pussy lovin’ ” just comes naturally.
PZ Myers’ lack of professional ethics has become so flagrant that it merits your complete attention. First things first: PZ has certainly never given evidence of thinking extensively. Or at all, for that matter on the subject of religion. He insults that which he fails to understand preferring vulgar snarks to meaningful and substantive debate. No doubt there will be no apology forthcoming despite eventual censure at the hands of UMM.
PZ ignores the most basic ground rule of debate. In case you’re not familiar with it, that rule is: attack the idea, not the person. His insults represent the most socially inept form of moral turpitude conceivable. And judging from the comments although the irascible wonks are relatively small in number compared to the general population, they are increasing in size and fervor.
PZ engages in pietistic babble that nauseates even some of my more religious friends. In short he worships at the alter of Darwinism (or Scientism – call it what you will). We must prevent PZ’s sinister convictions from spreading like a malignant tumor.
PZ’s patsies are too lazy to teach deranged windbags about tolerance. They just want to sit back, fasten their mouths on the public teats, and casually forget that PZ maintains wholly offensive and abusive positions on the value and place of religion.
PZ fails to mention that this is not Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia (or any other atheistic regime), where the state would be eager to condition the public or, more precisely, brainwash the public, into believing that he has his moral compass in tact. Not yet, at least. But he twists every argument into some sort of struggle between two parties. PZ unvaryingly constitutes the underdog party, which is what he claims gives him the right to expose and neutralize his enemies rather than sit at the same table and negotiate. The facts are in: There is no question that if Prof. PZ Myers opened up his mealymouthed mind just a teeny-weeny little bit, maybe he could understand that.
#380 Diane:
Do you realize that you are a whackaloon?
. I most sincerely forgive you and pray for your soul.
And a hearty “Fuck you” right back atcha
I think there is one thing that atheists here and elsewhere fail to understand about true believers. When we criticize their beliefs, and ridicule things like transubstantiation, we just don’t have the capacity to absorb the fact that anyone could take that nonsense seriously, so we don’t get what the big deal is when we ridicule it.
Speak for yourself. Oh, wait, you’re the great one who understands all this but is explaining it to all us ignorant atheists who don’t. Sorry, your grand pomposity, but you’re off target.
Max,
ok. You think PZ has at least partial blame for the woman being fired. You might be right. But do you genuinely believe that he has greater blame than her husband? The guy who write a death threat using his wife’s account? I really need to know.
Long time lurker, first time poster.
Be gentle.
Not sure if this the right place to post my suggestion. And I apologize in advance if someone else has offered this (I think I’ve only read 3-4000 of the 5-6000 post, over a dozen threads, on this topic).
I think I have a unique way of dealing with the crackers that P-Zed (sorry..Canadianism) has received. And that is to go overboard on the “respect.”
Set a place at the table for the cracker.
Take it to the beach (with some Barbie-sized sunglasses).
Or the zoo, or anywhere you go on vacation.
Bring it to work and give it its own chair and computer (but not access to your own email account).
Bring it shopping, and to the park.
Take it for a walk around the block.
Or the movies (is Expelled still playing?)
Tuck it in at night.
And, of course, videotape the whole thing and post it on youtube.
It could be a unique take on those garden gnomes that get taken on around-the-world trips ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelling_gnome_prank ).
I can’t see how there can be a complaint if the whole thing is done with a serious mien.
Besides I’m sure jesus would like to see a bit of the world outside of the Middle East.
David
@Pete Rooke
[blah blah sin lies hypocrisy anger hatred putrescence blah blah blah]
It is interesting why would anyone do violence to a lamb!
There’s lots of good eatin’ on them things.
There’s the priest who figured out he gets to eat the burnt offerings once the seekers have left the place he’s claimed is holy.
Once, Abraham was convinced by the voice in his head he had to gut his own son Isaac out on Highway 61, but figured the voice in his head wasn’t heartless enough to make him go through with it fer shursies, so, after conferring with another voice in his head, decided it was OK for him to kill a helpless widdle lamb instead.
Ritual human sacrifice. It’s not just for breakfast anymore!
NAB worships a bloodthirsty Asshole who says lambs are for slaughtering, doing the bidding of priests and P.R. flacks who figure sheep are for shearing.
Never give a seeker an even break.
We must prevent PZ’s sinister convictions from spreading like a malignant tumor.
Because don’t forget:
1) PZ has the power to force people to read his blog.
2) The internet is serious business.
OH NOES! Thomas Foley of Virginia wants to deny PZ his second amendment right to own a cyberpistol? The horror…..
This whole crackergate non-issue is beyond belief.
IT’S A FRELLING CRACKER.
I know you don’t believe. I do.
In a fairy tale. But obviously it’s not enough for you, else you wouldn’t be blabbering here.
And look at the gift. I try to make a point and along comes Pete Rooke at #385 to corroborate it. He shows you clearly that he hasn’t caught, much less digested, a single point made in any rational argument posted in the 4000+ Crackergate comments. He says “we don’t think”, “we don’t understand”, blah, blah, blah, and more inanities.
Truth is HE BELIEVES and that makes him blind to anything that doesn’t line up with his belief. We might as well bark at him like a dog. He’s not listening. He’s not hearing. Save your typing fingers. I am. I’m out of here to go find the wife and see if there’s some of that Canadian symbol on offer. :-)
You know, Cyberweapons of all sorts can be dangerous. Why just yesterday, I was RickRolled. And you know how dangerous that be!!
Well, maybe not dangerous, but annoying.
Yeah, Sharon, SteveM’s right. Google ascii art pistol and the first result had a whole page of them. That one was stylish, though.
Oh, how about this? Instead of a Cyberpistol, how about a Cyberknife? Not as clumsy or random as a Cyberpistol; an elegant weapon for a more civilized age.
http://www.cksociety.org/
Anyone who argues that the writer of an unsolicited email has some right to anonymity is an idiot.
Anyone who argues that the writer of an unsolicited email that contains a death threat has some right to anonymity and who comes to the defense of the threatener is an immoral idiot.
Rooke is crazy and just babbling without worrying about whether it makes sense or not. Just reposting his contradictory nonsense that shows he isn’t in contact with reality. Not going to spend any more time with the mentally ill.
I give you till the first of the month, get that resignation in cunt
Rooke is a delusional moron. His book doesn’t make Catholics any better than anyone else in the world, regardless of religion or lack thereof. Didn’t do Chuck any good, for example. The big problem with xianity today especially in the USA is not that xians are no better than anyone else, but that some of the sects and some of the members are far, far worse.
Diane,
Instead of your self-righteous condescending prayers for us, pray for something useful.
Here’s a good one to pray for. The catholic church is an international organization that has systematically aided and abetted the rape of children for centuries.
Why don’t you pray no more children be raped by your leaders. I know that’s a tall order, but don’t you agree its so much more useful.
I can’t speak for atheists but I know that I would gladly burn for eternity if that prayer was answered.
Have a nice day and remember pray for the children.
Everytime you pray for us, a child is raped because you wanted to be a self-righteous condescending bitch.
Better RickRolled than Goatsed.
“It is interesting why would anyone do violence to a lamb!”
Question is: Does Jesus go well with mint sauce?
(Because every mention of lamb must be followed by one of mint sauce)
RickRolled?
Paradise.
Why, in our day, we were goatsed and grateful for it!
Those stupid idiots are repeating history; they hate Myers because he’s “threatened” to “desecrate” a wafer.
That was one of the charges that christian anti-semites used to level against Jews:
Desecration of the Host – Anti-Semitic claim of medieval Christians that Jews would steal consecrated host wafers and desecrate them by stabbing them to make them bleed. According to the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation, which became dogma at that time, a consecrated host wafer becomes the flesh of Jesus Christ. It was thus believed that Jews would steal and desecrate these wafers to reenact the crucifixion of Christ. In numerous cases Jews were executed in horrible ways for this imaginary “crime.” In the 19th century it was shown that the red color often found on the wafers was due to a fungus.
Words to live by.
“… If you do that, dad, your holy communion is going to have priests going round with lots of trays going, ‘Who ordered the body of Christ, then?’ ”
Posted by: Sharon | July 16, 2008 10:18 PM
I’ve ordered this before on an earlier thread but you have worked up my appetite so…
One Big Jesus with cheese to go please, easy on the nails and hold the cross.
Pete Rooke wrote:
Er, what ‘person’ did PZ attack? Funny, I’ve been reading these posts since the beginning and at no point has he advocated attacking any ‘person’.
Ideas about beliefs, on the other hand – believing in a god, believing in magic, believing that a priest can perform magic to turn a cracker into god, believing that it’s okay to make threats against someone who doesn’t follow a set of rules that apply only to people who choose to adhere to them (as opposed to laws that apply to everyone) – he has attacked.
@ Raven (I understand that is the bird of choice for those engaged in occult practices)
I agree with you that there is definitely a continuum of sorts and some religious groups are far worse than others.
I place militant atheists near the bottom.
And here I thought all this time that the ascii stuff was a work of typing genius. The world makes a little more sense now.
Welcome, traveler from the 19th century.
You are a dangerous man, PZ. ;)
“Never Gonna Give You Up”
Now I have that damn song in my head.
#380: “Your stunt is no more than satan’s temptation of Christ to test God.”
Lots of Catholic wackos been coming here lately.
Diane, you believe in Mr. Satan? This is why Catholics are ridiculed. They blindly believe everything the pope tells them to believe. If the pope says it’s OK, there is no belief too idiotic for a Catholic.
Diane, have you ever considered the possibility that Satan, magical crackers, the Resurrection, and the other Catholic miracles, are just made up stories and inventions? Have you ever once in your life used your brain to think for yourself? Have you ever had an original thought or an original idea? Probably not. Thinking is a sin, so why risk torture in hell from your loving God.
One Big Jesus with cheese to go please, easy on the nails and hold the cross.
When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops?
He’s Right – the horror the horror
“I agree with you that there is definitely a continuum of sorts and some religious groups are far worse than others.
I place militant atheists near the bottom.”
That would be because you’re a shithead.
Atheists shooting abortion protesters? Doesn’t happen. Atheists suicide bombing non-atheists? Doesn’t happen.
Atheists issuing death threats to non-atheists over a fucking cracker? Doesn’t happen.
“I place militant atheists near the bottom.”
Quite so. They do so many evil things.
Flying planes into buildings, blowing up federal buildings and abortion clinics.
Rioting over cartoons and teddy bears.
Sending death threats over a cracker.
Oh wait…..
pete, you are a moron.
“Never Gonna Give You Up”
Now I have that damn song in my head
Let’s just hope Iran never gets that kind of technology.
IranRick’s in ur heads, rollin ur minds.
“One Big Jesus with cheese to go please, easy on the nails and hold the cross.”
Can I get the Blissful Meal? It comes with Crucifix Fries and a 42-ounce Diet Christ.
Welcome, traveler from the 19th century.
Don’t tell people that! Now they’ll want to know where I stashed my time machine!
I place militant atheists near the bottom.
We so care.
Can you pause for even one moment to count up the number of commands from your “moral text” that you’re violating?
I take it you missed the 20th century horrors then craig. Not heard of Mao, Stalin or Nazi Germany.
Catholic readers, don’t you go listening to BobC – all that talk about ‘thinking’, well that’s just Satan talking, trying to do to you what he did to Eve with the fruit from the tree of ‘knowledge’. That’s the dead giveaway – ‘knowledge’. A good christian shouldn’t want ‘knowledge’. Faith and the bible – that’s better than nasty ‘knowledge’.
Read your bibles! Don’t think for yourselves! Your church leaders will make your decisions for you!
Nazi Germany
under Catholic Hitler?
I take it you missed the 20th century horrors then craig. Not heard of Mao, Stalin or Nazi Germany.
We’ve all heard it here, repeatedly, and refuted it, repeatedly, trollbreath. What you’re too stupid to understand is that, when you write this sort of thing, you simply establish that you’re stupid, ignorant, illiterate, unread …
“In a fairy tale. But obviously it’s not enough for you, else you wouldn’t be blabbering here.”
Yep.
Any time someone takes time out of their day to seek out people who don’t believe in their fairy tale in order to proclaim how much they believe in their fairy tale, it’s their doubts talking.
#390Posted by: David Carson | July 16, 2008 10:22 PM
David’s post reminds of high school where they would make the young women carry around a 10 lb bag of sugar for a month as a surrogate baby to teach them the importance abstinence. Problem was that too many of them had sex right in front of the bag of sugar and still hadn’t been told about the virtues of birth control.
I take it you missed the 20th century horrors then craig. Not heard of Mao, Stalin or Nazi Germany.
What? God is dead? Quick, let’s ban Darwin and establish Lysenkoism. Adolf, nice Gott mit uns belt buckle.
Not heard of Mao, Stalin or Nazi Germany.
*sigh*
so, so tired of the mental midgets with their Darwin->Hitler meme.
James Kennedy is DEAD.
get a fucking clue already.
just because it needs to be here:
http://www.expelledexposed.com/
Where’s that post with all those photos of Catholic priests attending Nazi rallies and giving the Nazi salute? I think it was maybe Damian or JeffreyD who posted it.
As ignorant of history (and several other things) as he is, Pete Rooke want to blame Nazi Germany on atheists. I’m sure that’s why the belts on their uniforms said “Gott mit uns.” It’s funny and sad at the same time!
Hey, did you hear the one about Hitler being Catholic? (Not a particularly good one, I admit, but Mao and Stalin were pretty lousy atheists, too.)
I do believe that is entirely the point. There is nothing PZ Meyers can do to the body of Christ because he is not in posession of it. All he has are some bread wafers.
Sure, you may believe this bread is actually the body of a god, but that is incredibly stupid. It may shock you that someone could stand up and state flat out how incredibly stupid this belief is, but that just illustrates how important it is to say it. A stupid idea that cannot be questioned is an unbelievably dangerous thing to any society that fancies itself free.
What’s with these Popes who were in the Hitler youth?
I saved the link TM
http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm
Diane @380 Do you ever get out of the house? Do your male relatives keep you shrouded in a burka? Most people don’t believe in that version of crap.
Joseph Goebbels notes in a diary entry in 1939: “The Führer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay.”
According to historian Michael Rissmann young Adolf was influenced in school by Pan-Germanism and Darwinism and began to reject the Church and Catholicism, receiving Confirmation only unwillingly. A boyhood friend reports that after Hitler had left home, he never attended Mass or received the Sacraments.[3] Georg Ritter von Schönerer’s writings and the written legacy of his Pan-German Away from Rome! movement, which agitated against the Roman Catholic Church at the end of the 19th century, may have influenced the young Adolf Hitler.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_beliefs
Diane @380 Do you ever get out of the house?
Does she isolate herself when menstruating until she’s been certified “clean”?
I saved the link TM
http://www.nobeliefs.com/images/priests-salute.jpg
now, why does that ring a bell…
catholicism and authoritarianism, like peanut butter and chocolate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_beliefs
and if we continue quoting the wiki article instead of stopping there, we get these quotes:
Hitler claimed that during the time he served in World War I, he had a religious awakening; specifically when he was in the hospital, temporarily blinded from an enemy gas attack in October 1918. This religious awakening may be attributed to a hallucination, possibly induced by a Dr. Forster.[5] Another alleged incident was that a mysterious voice told Hitler to leave a crowded trench during a minor barrage. Moments after he left the area, a shell fell on that particular spot. Hitler saw this experience as a message that made him believe that he was a uniquely illuminated individual who had a special task to fulfill.
At some point, people just have to agree that Hitler was seriously messed up in the head, and stop invoking Godwin’s Law.
PZ is looking for media attention, nothing more nothing less:
“LOOK AT ME – IM AN ASSHOLE AT A SECOND RATE THINKER AT A SECOND RATE COLLEGE WITH NO MEDIA RECOGNITION!”
PZ – you are not Dawkins or Hitchens…..or even Dennet.
The rest of you atheists on here look like assholes, too.
So, congrats to all of you atheist sheep-thinkers and your attention whore “professor!”
I take it you missed the 20th century horrors then craig. Not heard of Mao, Stalin or Nazi Germany.
Just to recapture context for a moment, you lying sack of pus, but by “militant atheists” you were referring to people here, none of whom had anything to do with those things. So at the very least you should distinguish between “militant” in dictionary sense 1, “vigorously active and aggressive”, and in dictionary sense 2, “engaged in warfare; fighting”. But, being the dishonest immoral low filth that you are, you won’t.
Hey, look, everybody! I’m the Ron with tits and a surname! And not in Houston!
Just thought I’d make that clear first.
I can’t believe no one here has figured it out yet, from Mr. Foley’s* big clue.
The Repubs are expecting a surprise celebrity appearance by God Him/Her/Crackerself! Obviously, their security has to be very very good for the convention. Can’t run the risk of Jesus’ being (at this coinage every knee should bend) crackerjacked.
*As I’m a used nurse, I think “catheter” every time I see the name “Foley.” If that other braying mackerelsnapper wants free-association to be a criterion for job fitness, he’d better change his name or at least deflate his balloon.
Posted by: Miami | July 16, 2008 10:56 PM
blah blah blah blah
Nabacanazer wrote:
The man has obviously never had a good gyros.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_beliefs
somehow, I rather think you might have missed reading the rest of that article, plus you might want to check the discussion page.
However, as long as you insist on quotemining:
Why are there jesus wafers floating around the republican national convention?
Cyberpistol?? Those fools! They should know that it is instead your cyberfrisbee (ala Tron) that should be feared. It can ricochet!
The man has obviously never had a good gyros.
or the lamb lawand here
My apologies to Max.
Why are there jesus wafers floating around the republican national convention?
It’s like the balloons at a graduation ceremony. Don’t let Jesus hit the ground, that’s a party foul.
Joseph Goebbels notes in a diary entry in 1939: “The Führer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay.”
But that doesn’t support your point, fuckhead, which was about militant atheists doing evil things.
And you want respect? Is there any Catholic reading here who thinks that this shithead Rooke deserves that?
It’s like the balloons at a graduation ceremony. Don’t let Jesus hit the ground, that’s a party foul.
Is it like letting the flag hit the ground?
are we supposed to burn them or bury them 13 feet underground?
Wow. You folks are appallingly full of yourselves. No wonder there is no room for intelligent discussion here.
One commenter after another has scorned the religious for their supposed irrationality, yet not one of the comments I’ve read has been reasonable – save, actually, those written by theists. You aren’t reasonable at all! For Christ’s sake, you all rival the apes with your childlike stupidity! You’re venomous, hateful, and unreasonable. You consider for not one moment the point your chosen opponents are making. You will not even concede that your chosen opponents – i.e., the commenting theists – are capable of making worthwhile points. All I see here are many vitriolic and hypocritical atheists excusing themselves from rational discussion by ridiculing their Great Enemy. Impressive, really!
I am a Catholic, and although my perennial frustration with this religion is driving me away from it, I never want to become like any of you. All I have learned here is that an atheist is a self-impressed pig. Bravo.
I wonder if you can take your cyberpistol into Washington DC now?
A new place to go for lunch!
Thanks MAJeff
Is it like letting the flag hit the ground?
are we supposed to burn them or bury them 13 feet underground?
Well, if you wait 3 days and then burn them you can say they rose again and went to heaven.
are we supposed to burn them or bury them 13 feet underground?
That depends, is Jesse Helms wrapped in it?
@436: You mean you take the writings of the Nazi propaganda minister over a bunch of actual photographs?
Wow.
Well, we are apes, after all. Even you. Realizing that is a nice first step on the road to rationality.
Wow. Just when I thought it couldn’t get any crazier. These Catholics just don’t realize how nutty this is making them look, do they?
I think PZ’s “followers” (someone needs to make t-shirts and membership cards now) need to stay far away from this RNC. If even one person were to make a scene there it’ll only seem to justify the hysteria and need for extra security in the minds of some. Stay away and they look like the big idiots they are.
…Or they just say that the extra security measures obviously worked and frightened everyone away. Dammit, we can’t win for losing. Ah, well. Still better to take the high road.
If I may.
Posted by: David | July 16, 2008 11:05 PM
Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah
A new place to go for lunch!
Thanks MAJeff
I don’t know if they do lunch. If you’re going for dinner MAKE RESERVATIONS!!!
The lamb is wonderful. The pumpkin, though–that’s some amazing shit (and get it without the meat sauce, trust me). The bucklawa actually made me cry.
(I think it’s actually owned by members of the Karzai family)
No Lunch?
Then after work it shall be.
No wonder there is no room for intelligent discussion here.
There’s plenty of intelligent discussion when troll filth like you and Pete aren’t around.
This is like the Trollolympics.
Ron Sullivan
Huh? You’re nuts. I suppose I might have a case of man boobs, but I wouldn’t call them tits.
Not in Houston? Are you nuts. Here, I’ll act like a bona fide redneck. Come down here and I’ll put a boot in your ass.
Want me to quote more Toby Keith?
You’re as delusional as the people you criticize.
David @453, you have read the 10000 odd comments in the various threads, then, that you pass judgement?
No, I thought not.
yet not one of the comments I’ve read has been reasonable – save, actually, those written by theists.
you mean like the one your theist buddy Kroll wrote?
“Want me to quote more Toby Keith?”
No thanks.
Hearing anything more by that jingoistic moron is unnecessary.
David @453
“I am a Catholic, and although my perennial frustration with this religion is driving me away from it, I never want to become like any of you.”
Happily, David, as an atheist, you don’t have to.
There are no dogma, doctrines or Popes. All you have to do is lose your belief. Sounds kinda like you already have.
Don’t worry. Lots of us go through a period where we recognize that we aren’t buying it any more, but aren’t quite ready to embrace the ‘A’ Word. That’s okay. Nobody has the right to tell you how to act. Only you get to decide.
And the rest of us will treat you accordingly, as appropriate. Don’t expect that from the still-religious, though.
You consider for not one moment the point your chosen opponents are making.
In fact, each of the points made by Pete Rooke and scum like him have been considered and, if appropriate rebutted.
You will not even concede that your chosen opponents – i.e., the commenting theists – are capable of making worthwhile points.
Au contraire, they are certainly capable of it, which makes them culpable when they fail to do so.
“So, congrats to all of you atheist sheep-thinkers…”
Posted by: Miami | July 16, 2008 10:56 PM
Gee… from Florida… what a surprise.
Someone needs to explain to Miami that the flock of sheep thing is about christians, not atheists.
David, #453, wrote:
They’re making the point that they believe their magic ceremony literally turns a cracker into god, and that the magic god-cracker is more important than civil liberties and life.
Which should not be a point anyone even vaguely rational should consider.
That an atheist may be a self-impressed pig has nothing to do with atheism. One does not become an atheist in order to become a nice person. One becomes an atheist when one realises there is/are no god/s – there are no other conditions.
Re: More Hitler shit from the Catholic trolls.
For a good time, point your url here:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler
Then open up your browser’s find feature, and search for Christianity. Then hit “next”, “next”, “next”, “next”,….
You’ll get tired of reading quotes before you run out of them.
Hi, David.
It’s rather shocking to talk to people who think your ideas are very, very silly, isn’t it?
I think if you take a step back, that is what this is whole thing is about. Can we say that your ideas are stupid? Can we say it loudly? Can we say it in ways that bother you? Or is the idea of offending religious ideas so horrific that people who pocket communion wafers should be expelled from school, professors who support such students should be fired, and that anyone who makes death threats against the anti-religious should be giving a free pass?
Because underneath all the sturm and drang, that’s really what this is about. I, and I think most of PZ’s supporters (and maybe even some non-supporters), are quite happy to support your right to call PZ whatever you want; we just ask for the same right to call your ideas completely stupid without being arrested, fired, or threatened with violence. That’s it. That’s all this is about. If fundamentalistists understood how a free society worked, none of this would be an issue.
Ok, who brought up the Nazis first?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
“I am a Catholic, and although my perennial frustration with this religion is driving me away from it, I never want to become like any of you.”
If the Catholic Church leaves you frustrated, and you don’t want to become like any of us, you may have to learn how to think for yourself. Of course, that isn’t the way to be offered a loving cup and the opportunity to sing Gabba Gabba with the rest of us freaks, but hey, whatever blows yer skirt up, pal.
I do not give a peanut-ridden shit about Godwin or his stupid law.
Ron in Houston, thank you so much for informing me that you have man-boobs and consider yourself a redneck.
I wouldn’t want to get the wrong impression of you, nossir!
Verret:
What the hell is “breath-beating”?
Rooke:
Christ, have we hit Godwin’s Law already?
For you, Ken:
http://www.olgabaclanova.com/pictures/freaks/browning_and_freaks_med.jpg
Oh, everyone knows all those Hitler quotes are made up by the Evil Atheist Conspiracy™.
The atheists are so clever they managed to infiltrate Germany – a predominately Christian country, with a similar proportion of Christians in the government and military – and make them do those horrible things against their will. They obviously did the same with Italy (a predominately Catholic country) who were their allies – and the Vatican (all Catholic – presumably), since they fully supported Hitler at the time.
This, of course, had nothing to do with historical German antisemitism of the sort espoused by Luther and supported by other branches of Christianity.
I find it oddly amusing that today, Archie McPhee introduced the Angry Mob Play Set. If you put little GOP stickers on the Glow-in-the-Dark Flesh-Eating Zombie Play Set, you can have your very own Republican convention diorama in your living room.
John Morales
Yep. Texan with “man boobs” and at least by inheritance a redneck.
I’m also an atheist.
I make a fine poster child don’t I? Maybe PZ and I can make a poster.
Come on PZ? What you don’t want to be associated with a Texas redneck with man boobs? WTF? I thought you people were freethinkers?
re: #427 Posted by: mayhempix | July 16, 2008 10:45 PM
Good point. I guess satire is sometimes a little too subtle.
Sometimes one may need to be metaphorically whupped upside the head with that bag of sugar.
Still, Travels with your host, Jesus, or Putting on the Ritz or From Crackers to Krakatoa might be a funny little travelogue.
David
P.S. Momentarily taken aback when I saw the comments directed at the other David.
No relation!
Given the complicity of the church in the Holocaust, I’d think Catholics would stay well clear of that entire discussion.
It reminds me of conservatives who like to trot out Reagans resolution of the Iranian Hostage Crisis, confident in the fact that only 3% of the American public will remember that the Reagan administration went on to sell weapons to the Ayatollah.
let me get this straight…
They serve COOKIES in church?
WTF? I would’ve been there years ago if I’d have known that…
Do they have chocolate chips? I love chocolate chip cookies. Also sugar cookies, and oatmeal cookies, but not the hard kind…they gotta be soft and squishy…real fresh.
Can Melanie Kroll bring her kids to church and fill everybody up on cookies?
So this has most likely been said by atheists at some point in *ahem* discussions like these but I think it’s an important point: It does not matter if you think all atheists are arrogant pigs and all people of faith are pure and humble, you cannot conclude anything about their arguments from how well you like someone.
Think PZ was an insensitive jerk? Fine but that has nothing to do with atheism as a philosophy. Think Christopher Hitchens is a drunkard with silly views on the war in Iraq? That doesn’t say anything about his scathing commentaries of religions. A similar fallacy is attributing the characteristics of one member of a group to all, such as Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot for atheists arguments or even George W for conservatives.
These fallacies, while tempting to make, are easily recognizable by both sides and will not gain you traction at all.
Doesn’t matter. Godwin’s Law is Nazi bullshit.
What precisely do they imagine PZed is going to do?
Look at them sideways?
Reveal all their illegal activities? Oh, wait, that could be it; it would scare the crap out of them.
In re: Mark Foley – I guess if you really, truly believe in ghosts you shouldn’t be surprised when you start seeing them in the shadows.
“It reminds me of conservatives who like to trot out Reagans resolution of the Iranian Hostage Crisis,”
Quick worker, that Reagan, seeing as the hostages were being released right as he took the fucking oath of office.
How sweet! Thanks, TM! Loves me some cast pics from Freaks. Johnny Eck is a favorite; an old girlfriend got a chance to speak with him on a phone call arranged for her by Forry Ackerman. He performed in a “saw the volunteer in half” magician’s illusion where, having been “restored” he stood on the shoulders of a midget in pants until they “split” and the bottom half and the top half ran around separately to much merriment and mayhem among the panicked marks. What made the trick stick was that Johnny had a close to identical fraternal twin who played the volunteer. The magician may very well have used the magic words, “Hocus, Pocus!” I wonder where they came from?
Missing from that pic is Harry Earles, who also appeared as a member of the Lollipop Guild.
Dustin, what’s your point?
I know little of Matt Nisbet’s work or qualifications and I find myself sympathetic to his stated cause, as a liberal arts/lowly humanities sort myself. But my scanty glances at his writing always give the same impression: that he’s not talking about Science Communication he’s talking about Science Marketing.
Now, I’ve always felt that Comms Studies always copped too much stick from the right wing and from the hard sciences for what is a harmless little discipline with an at times interesting look at the world. But I did feel, back in the day, that it was such a hybrid discipline (prone to borrowing other ideas and using them as metaphors) it would have trouble, philosophically, standing on its own two feet. What gets written on Matt Nisbet’s site makes me think that, in the years since I took it, it has finally succumbed.
the Reagan administration went on to sell weapons to the Ayatollah.
…and to the precursor of what became the Taliban (and gave them military training, to boot).
…and that’s just scratching the very outermost surface.
All I have learned here is that an atheist is a self-impressed pig.
Wow. Which one?
To be honest when I heard the word cyberpistol, my mind superimposed PZ’s head on Rambo’s and then it cut to a little montage of him shooting in the wild jungles of the internet. Did this happen to anyone else?
No, but I did snort tea out of my nose when I read this. Come on, someone make an animation!
Dustin
That is the finest (and funniest) piece of satire I’ve seen in a long, long time.
If I had an award to give you, I’d do it.