Yeesh, not only am I busy at this meeting, but two factors are conspiring to keep me away from the web.
-
The internet service in this hotel is abominable — I’ve tried both the wireless and wired access, and it’s like trying to read the 21st century internet over a 300 baud modem. I tried to edit a few trolls’ comments, and while I waited to load the page, I took a shower, walked a mile down the street, got breakfast and coffee, came back, found the maid service had cleaned up the suite (nice!), sat down to the computer, and just then it finished. I suspect the fact that the hotel is packed to the gills with computer scientists might have something to do with this.
-
This is a conference way outside my discipline — I’m here to give some outsider’s context, talking about evo-devo to a bunch of evolutionary and genetic algorithms people. And everyone I talk to is telling me that they have very high expectations for my talk! Damn. These things are so much easier when I walk in and people have low expectations. Anyway, so I’m feeling mildly panicky — not too bad, though, because I think what I’ve got is at least a good talk — so I’m feeling like hiding away and just working it a little harder. Thanks, Conor Ryan and everyone else here, I’ve got butterflies now, and I never feel this nervous!
So you’re just going to have to talk amongst yourselves for a while, or browse some of the other fine sites in the Scienceblogs stable, as long as I’m choked up here in Atlanta…although I may just look elsewhere for an internet cafe later. Or if you want something to keep the flames burning bright, my atheist’s creed was cited in the comments — chew over that.
Please behave, don’t feed the trolls, etc.
Dr. Myers:
I’m sure that you will do fine with your speech. At the very least, you’ll give them something to think about.
I stuck this on the thread just earlier than this one, but it may be of interest to those who wouldn’t see it there. So, since there isn’t much to comment about here, that I can see, here:
I think it’s pretty evident that Jesus is consipiring against you with his dad dude to stop you from talking.
Ah, the price of fame. Don’t suppose you have a danio in your pocket? You could take it between thumb and forefinger and wave it gently overhead at key moments.
“Gotcher algorithm rat cheer!”
Is Mary Mac’s still there somewhere? Taking a tub of frozen pot likker away as you head back north might be a good consolation. Worked for us, anyway.
Don’t feed the trolls what?
Best of luck, but I don’t think you’ll need it.
doov
Oops, as SC pointed out, the student is making the charge of hazing.
Which is also weird, but at least it’s not the school being weird this time.
I doubt that the school makes them take communion, after all, and the law is made so that underage drinking at communion is permitted.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
One thing I’ve noticed in some hotels is that they give you extremely slow net access if you haven’t forked over the access fees properly. Happened to me once when trying to connect a linux laptop, and I never could get the high speed access, and never did get a refund for the !#$! access fee. Now I only stay at hotels that offer free access.
Heh, talking about not being able to get to the web …
How many heard that John McCain admitted to being both computer, Internet, and e-mail ilbiterate? (I’m not totally HTML savvy myself, but this is ridiculous):
From http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/07/13/i-will-have-that-down-fairly-soon-getting-on-myself/
Risa at 10:11 am, July 13th, 2008
~>
Several months ago, in the heat of the republican primary, Yahoo news asked the candidates: Mac or PC? McCain’s response was revealing… and disturbing.
“Neither. I am an illiterate who has to reply on my wife for all of the assistance I can get.”
Now come some even more impressive quotes in an interview with the New York Times.
He said, ruefully, that he had not mastered how to use the Internet and relied on his wife and aides like Mark Salter, a senior adviser, and Brooke Buchanan, his press secretary, to get him online to read newspapers (though he prefers reading those the old-fashioned way) and political Web sites and blogs.
“They go on for me,” he said. “I am learning to get online myself, and I will have that down fairly soon, getting on myself. I don’t expect to be a great communicator, I don’t expect to set up my own blog, but I am becoming computer literate to the point where I can get the information that I need.”
…
Mr. McCain said he did not use a BlackBerry, though he regularly reads messages on those of his aides. “I don’t e-mail, I’ve never felt the particular need to e-mail,” Mr. McCain said.
>
[So, should a person this out of the modern world really be able to govern the world’s superpower in the 21st Century?]
Glen D,
If I read your update correctly, it seems Mr. Cook is the one filing “hazing” charges against the Campus Catholic Ministries, not the reverse. This is because they attempted to force him to eat the cracker before leaving the service, which technically constitutes “hazing.”
I say good for Mr. Cook. A hazing charge against this campus religious organization is no less ridiculous than is their charge against Mr. Cook for “disrupting” the service.
I think they should all just move on and forget about this trivial incident. Surely if Mr. Cook really did offend the omnipotent creator of the universe by “kidnapping” that cracker, he will be appropriately punished.
Glen D,
He’s brought charges against the club with the school; he’s not charging the school:
Yes, I noted in #6 that I misread (mis-scanned) the piece. “Hazing” doesn’t seem to fit either side, really. The more important part:
Quite so. That’s what hell is for, and they should either act like their doctrine is true, or cease promoting it. The latter would be much better, of course, but the former would at least leave religious issues where they don’t matter, in religion.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
I always do alright when I’m nervous. It’s when I’m calm that my presentations flop. I’m sure you’ll do great. Break a leg PZ.
Z
Typical computer scientists –always bogarting the bandwidth.
Other than that, accusing the Catholic Church of hazing is freakin’ hilarious. It’s enough to make me want to go to mass, and when I receive the Eucharist, I’ll shout “Thank you, sir! May I have another?”
Well I suppose it matters to the “hazing” charge, but the club seems to be an arm of the school.
Either way, I don’t see how he’s forced to partake of the Eucharist, unless in a very indirect manner (perhaps he must be Catholic in good standing). To have to eat it in order to “remain at mass” seems (without further details) to be a matter of his own choice–plus, he had taken the cracker apparently of his own free will.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
“Like”? For all we know, it might actually be a 300 baud modem …
I think the hazing charge is appropriate. Hazing can include being forced to eat or drink things as well as harrassment. The catholic church on campus forced him to eat the eucharist or leave.
Considering it is a public school and a public student hall, they did not have much room telling him to leave, let alone forcing him to eat the eucharist. They also do indeed serve alcohol to minors, and while it may be legal in a religious context as far as the state is concerned, it is rare the universities make this exception explicitly in their rules.
At my university, the policy states that “ANY student that possesses alcholic beverages on campus will face disciplinary action. It says nothing about religious services.
As for the harrassment part, I believe death threats constitute harrassment.
So this covers all three of those pieces of many hazing rituals.
Your talk should go well. I recall reading where Isaac Asimov was preparing to give a speech, and the organizer told him that about 3/4 of the people had attended a speech he gave a couple of days before. Since he was intending the give the same speech, he had to change topics on the fly. His new speech was well received. Hope the organizers don’t do this to you.
I want to add that when it says ANY student in the policy, it means any student. A 35 year old (ex) classmate of mine was expelled for drinking at a party on campus (along with alot of others at the same party).
Neil B. ♪ ♪ ♪ :
This news about McCain is not being fully explored by anyone. McCain has seriously suggested that we should model economic and “job” growth after Ebay. A man that cannot even “log-on” to the internet when his office computer has a dedicated connection cannot possibly know anything about Ebay usage statistics!! His economic policy is to be taken seriously when he lacks the tools to even discover the information required to formulate economic policy?!?! But evidence is no longer relevant for BushCo and the Repugnants.
The hazing charge won’t hold water.
On another hand the disruption of service charge is much more serious.
Florida statutes (2007) 871.01
So, if this goes to court, did Webster Cook willfully interrupt or disturb this religious service ?
Who will testify for him ?
Against him ?
There is still a facebook page where he appears as one of the co-signatories where it is all about atheism and denouncing the church’s abuse of use of school funds. So, how will he defend himself that it was not willful interruption or disturbance ?
I’m sorry, but he is defending his case extremely poorly.
Ah, one more strike against McCain. For me the topper was when he said in a beliefnet interview – “I would probably have to say yes, that the Constitution established the United States of America as a Christian nation.”
More important than not understanding the tubes of the internets is McCain’s misunderstanding of our Constitution.
“I think it has gotten way out of hand, and it’s all based on a misunderstanding,” he said.
That’s true. Some people apparently misunderstood that if you take a cracker and say a bunch of mumbo over it, it turns into a slice of godmeat.
neg,
Why was your comment on the previous thread (sorry, I refuse to comment there again) – the one that began “well, well, so Webster files his hazing charges” – addressed to me?
This story deserves to be widely read:
Indian Christians Smash Newspaper Offices, Set Fires Over Newspaper Image of Christ
And this one:
Verily, “Homosexuality is the Downfall of Society”
And to all the new commenters here, make sure you explore the rest of ScienceBlogs. There’s lots of good stuff out there.
Why not bring a slice of Edam and an olive and make an hors d’œuvre when they give you the host? Then you can demonstrate the Miracle of Canapés, wherein though the substance is changed through the application of several cooking and food decoration techniques, the accident remains unchanged in that they’re still generally unsatisfying and make one wonder why one bothers to go stag to shindigs like this when one could just as easily be watching the game at the pub with a plate of hot wings, just as single but sans annoying necktie.
Someone may have already posted this… but the 1800flowers addy was hacked or phished or something… this is what I had in my inbox this morning:
Hi there
Not sure what this is or who you are. All i know is i have lots of emails from some unhappy people. I have emailed the original recipient an apology being an email was sent from my work email address without my knowledge. The threat is empty nonetheless. I see that this PZ folk has lots of supporters so he/she must be a good person. I can only
apologize again for this inconvenience.
Have a good day
Melanie
….poor girl.
Troll took out the DSL, it’s 20 minutes to tits.
Oh? You don’t believe in trolls? Then how do you explain the dead unicorns!?
And then we get idiots like W who decide to make things even worse.
I do hope he is feeling suitably ashamed and will apologise profusely.
On a serious note(!), it’s been my experience that non-Catholics or those who have not received the rite of first communion are more than welcome to attend services and remain seated during communion. Those who do not wish to receive the host are under no obligation to do so.
Unless there are circumstances under which Mr. Cook was forced to go up and get his wafer, the hazing charge shouldn’t stand.
I’m glad to know that P-Zed is not just athi-er. To superlative and beyond!
One of the many, many weird things about this Eucharist business is that people seem to think Jesus couldn’t absent himself from a compromising situation. Why can’t the Creator of the Universe do what any hack writer for a supermarket tabloid can do: you know, “Our reporter made his excuses and left”? This whole affair implies that once a human being has said the proper mumbo-jumbo, the Creator of the Universe is trapped, trapped, inside a bit of snack food. Next thing you know, they’ll get enough people chanting together to imprison Jesus in some English guy’s basement, bottling Him up in a fishbowl surrounded by cookies and runes.
And please leave a condolence comment for Respectful Insolence‘s Orac, who just lost his beautiful dog.
Anything, because they’re like Tribbles.
I think it’s great that a group of computer scientists want to hear about evolution, and can make the link between evolutionary algorithms in CS and observed evolution in biology.
UUhh Behave !!
Either that or she is having first thoughts and realizing that 5 years in jail for cyber death threats probably isn’t a smart move.
The company now has a serious image problem for what is supposed to be a warm, fuzzy service, sending flowers. They also have a potential liability of a few million dollars. My guess is that, if they are smart, they are going to turn the place upside down trying to figure out where the email came from and who. If their system was hacked, they need to know that too.
Good luck with your talk PZ. I’m sure you’ll do great!
Good luck PZ, not that you need it.
As for that pesky free hotel internet…I can sit in the parking lot of a downtown Mpls McDonald’s (not enough money in the world to get me to walk into the place) and get faster Wi-Fi then some “nice” hotels I’ve stayed in.
Glen D
I would file Mr. Cook’s “hazing charge” along with the “underage drinking violation” charge under the category of: “You wanna get stupid? Let’s get stupid!”
As a member of the SGA, I’m sure he felt like some people were using procedural beaurocracy as a method of legalized harrassment over this ridiculous foofooraw, and being a member of the SGA, knew exactly how to respond to beaurocratic bullying… by pushing back with his own beaurocratic bologna. The goal, I’m guessing, is to make a point about how stupid the initial charges are in the first place, and show that he’s not incapable of defending himself using the same tactics being employed by the Universtiy’s catholic organization.
It may look stupid on its surface, but I think it’s fairly clever and poignant.
#13
OOOOOO that one caught me by surprise, almost choked on my twigberry granola !!!!
————————
You Tube Eucharist Challenge
SC,
you’re right it shouldn’t have been addressed to you in particular, it’s only because you were mentionning this article, I’m loosing track with those 900+ thread, it gets a little bit chaotic…
Andrew Sullivan doesn’t get freedom of speech, or of religion:
It’s totally about free speech. Freedom of speech, religion, and mind is all about being able to say how you see it, to promote your own vision of what “the host” actually is.
Indeed, it is virtually certain that any and all “desecration” of a communion wafer would be held to be protected free speech as well. I don’t myself think that it speaks well of the person who deliberately takes such a juvenile tack, but it’s free speech.
Of course it may or may not be considered to be beyond civil discourse to call it a “goddamned cracker” again and again, however that’s another matter entirely. PZ does not intend to engage in civil language about certain religious practices, and he has stated his reasons for doing so. Many of our ancestors fought in wars (notably, the religious wars) to be able to say whatever we want about what a “holy cracker” is.
My sense is that calling it a “goddamned cracker” is simply getting across one’s own view. Escalating the matter to “desecration” may be personal expression, or however you want to make it out to be, but it is not the productive way of getting across your message. A bit of bluster about one’s ability and right to do so opens up the matter for the debate that Sullivan seems to wish to squelch. Going through with the threat is the way to turn off minds by causing them to merely react against the act.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Behave?!
Dang. We don’t never git to have no fun arrround here never. That ain’t no fair. Ab stainin from trolls fer a whole day! Thems high fahlutin expections. We hain’t never done nothin to deserve cold jerky.
@#26: I feel terribly bad for that girl. It must suck so much to be her right now, her mailbox must be full of bad things. All that thanks to a pussy jerk.
…after all, some guys signed up these emails for porn.
I can’t wait for the movie starring Eddie Murphy:
Cook was not forced to take communion. He could have either remained seated, as another commenter has stated, or gone through the line and crossed himself — a sign of refusal to partake communion thereby receiving receiving a blessing. The option is dependent upon the procedures in that church or group.
Even Catholics are not to partake in communion under certain conditions.
SC “And please leave a condolence comment for Respectful Insolence’s Orac, who just lost his beautiful dog.”
Damn. I knew it was inevitable, but that sucks. Puts it all into perspective.
I tend to think so, and said so in another thread.
Yes, it might be a good strategy on his part, in the hope that the other side will realize how silly they’re being.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Prof MTH @ # 45
Cook was not forced to take communion. He could have either remained seated, as another commenter has stated, or gone through the line and crossed himself — a sign of refusal to partake communion thereby receiving receiving a blessing. The option is dependent upon the procedures in that church or group.
Even Catholics are not to partake in communion under certain conditions.
And this would be relevant to the actual events that occurred in what way? Or are you not really factually familiar with the events that occurred? If not, please re-read the many, many accounts of the event. You won’t have to look hard to find them.
Good luck with that one, after all they do believe in the make believe, care to review that silly comment.
Cleaning crew?
This serves as a good reminder to log-off or power-off your work computers when you leave.
Yeah, but now that Cook is on stage, he can either freeze, or dance.
I think it’s a fine bit of performance art myself since not eating the cracker broke no school rules, but attempting to force him DID, technically.
One is as nonsensical as the other, THAT is a salient point!!
Those Kook-licks can’t enforce their cracker nazi shit on publicly owned property. People are forgetting this was NOT in a Catholic Church, it was not private property, it was State owned Public Property.
Catholic Canon simply does NOT APPLY, and NOT eating is NOT disturbing the Peace.
They need to take their witch Doctor bullshit off Campus, onto their own property, and then they can enforce their own rules of propriety.
—————–
You Tube Eucharist Challenge
I doubt it. When have any of the theist trolls here ever been swayed by pointing out the irony of their position? They never get the Zeus blesses or the scripture quotes from the Bhagavad Gītā. They won’t ‘get’ the hazing charge either.
Further, since it’s a slam dunk that Cook didn’t have to go up and get communion, this’ll do nothing but feed their martyr complexes.
I mean, I see his point, but I also smell the snake oil in claiming that transubstantiation involves two miracles, the second being that the first is undetectable. The population we’re talking about won’t.
Hey, PZ, are you going to say anything about the university yanking links to your blog from their faculty webpages?
Oh dear, seems the US’s reputation as a nation of wowsers is indeed accurate. The idea of making campuses here in the UK alcohol free would be laughable. Not least because most are ringed with pubs. But the operative thing is the student Union is the hub of campus social life and that means a bar, usually with beer cheaper than any of the local pubs. So run by the students rather than the University per se, but still on campus.
When I think of some of the boozeups for various excuses in lab coffee rooms too…
But then here in the UK you can legally buy alcohol from licensed premises aged 17. You can be in a pub and have alcohol bought for you by an adult in loco parentis during a meal at much younger ages. Perhaps that is why we are more comfortable with it since you must have lived a very sheltered life if you come to a UK uni without having been pissed already. First time our eldest came home lathered aged iirc 16 (private party) we let her sister play her bagpipes (full great pipes) outside her room at 08:30 the next morning. Learning about consequences is an important part of youth….
@ pzph #53
This is PZ’s personal blog… not affiliated with the University in the first place. So it’s probably a good policy in general not to link to personal blog’s from University sponsored sites, as it might be perceived as an endorsement of a particular person’s views and / or opinions… something I doubt the University would want to encourage in the first place.
And, not that I know this to be the case, but what makes you think removing the links to his blog wasn’t at PZ’s request? Just sayin…
Celtic_Evolution
I have seen conflicting accounts as to his motivations and the course of events. It seems he went there with the intention of removing the Frackin’ Cracker. In that regard he was free. He may have been forced to swallow after taking the frackin’ cracker, and so was not free in that regard. Also, he may have been forewarned that his taking the frackin’cracker was an implicit agreement if the priest made it known the guidelines for receiving communion, even for Catholics. But I agree, that attempting to force him to swallow is a coercive act. But earlier accounts left out that detail.
If notified of the communion guidelines, Cook’s act was a violation of the rules within that organization. He may not be accountable to the university for violating those rules. He may be accountable to the university if his act does constitute a misdemeanor as defined by the afore-posted university regulations.
For clarification: I agree it is a frackin’ cracker!
The university has included the link for years. I think archive.org showed it was there as far back as 2005. Maybe 2006. I’d have to check again, but I know it’s been a while. Why suddenly remove it now either by PZ’s request or not?
Biscuits?
@ Prof MTH #56
But I agree, that attempting to force him to swallow is a coercive act. But earlier accounts left out that detail.
I don’t remember any single account I’ve ever read from the beginning of this leaving that part out… it’s the main point of the issue, and the main reason for PZ’s outrage.
If notified of the communion guidelines,
Been to a LOT of Catholic masses growing up an alter boy in Boston… never remember once giving out guidlelines for receiving the eucharist at the beginning of mass. I’m sorry, but there is no way you’re going to convince me that Mr. Cook was notified that his actions were going to be perceived as so innapropriate that he’d be accosted and physically threatened.
Peter #54
It’s a state by state and county by county thing in the US.
The idea of making ANYTHING in Houston TX alcohol free would be laughable. Do yall sell beer in Petrol Stations across the pond? Drinking and driving was legal here until the 90’s, although driving drunk has always been prohibited.
I thought about fashioning one of those beer helmets for riding my motorbike. I still have the old Commando, BTW, but haven’t seen the whitworths in awhile.
…after all, some guys signed up these emails for porn.
Gay porn. Melanie may have some new pin ups.
@ ProfMTH
For clarification: I agree it is a frackin’ cracker!
I hear ya… and I don’t dispute that you agree… but I’m getting a little tired of the argument “if he had only behaved appropriately in the first place” as any kind of justification for the reaction of the congregation, nor the ridiculous follow up.
If the response had been to scowl at him, boo him… ask him to leave and never come back.. fine. I’d agree that this guy did something stupid and acted like a boob and deserved to be tossed out of the church. And we’d never have heard about it again. But that’s not what happened… is it?
Has anyone else seen/read about the July 21 New Yorker Magazine cover?
I’m really not sure what to make of it. I guess it was in pretty bad taste.
There is a report on the delinking of Pharyngula:
I don’t mind if they link with the disclaimer. But are they going to re-link, with a disclaimer, or just leave it unlinked, like it is now?
Other than the disclaimer, I can see no reason to change anything at all, since it’s just a link for the convenience of visitors to their own site.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
It was not a coincidence that the Pharyngula link was removed at the same time batshit crazy Catholics started screaming about their crackers. It looks like appeasement of terrorists to me. The link should be put back, with a disclaimer if necessary. Pharyngula is probably the best possible advertisement for the University of Minnesota, Morris. It’s in their best interest to put the Pharyngula link back immediately. Their sucking up to religious barbarians is disgraceful.
In my email supporting PZ I also requested the Pharyngula link be restored. Perhaps others would like to do the same.
Here’s the email address: [email protected] President Robert H. Bruininks
Add me to the people who think that lady from 1800flowers is trying to cover her behind after her little prank backfired. I’d love to see an official response from 1800flowers, though.
PZ, is it too much to ask for a copy of your presentation after you deliver it? As much as I enjoy the “athiest” side of Pharyngula, I love the science side as well. And if it involves the King Kong theory of creation, all the better.
Here’s a video of wafer torture by the Atheist Community of Austin’s program “The Atheist Experience”.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2636111822344880682
@pzph
The university has included the link for years. I think archive.org showed it was there as far back as 2005. Maybe 2006.
Look, I know where you’re going with this… we all get it… you’re trying to make the (not so) subtle point that the University’s removal of the links is a tacit affirmation that the University agree’s with the CL’s position… and I’m telling you that you can read into it all you want, but it doesn’t make you right.
Policy changes are almost always made as a result of circumstance. In this case, the University may have seen that this was a particularly sensitive issue, and did not want to give the impression of endorsing PZ’s personal viewpoints, or that of the anyone else. Such a policy is in fact a good idea, and is probably long overdue.
It took a couple of lawsuits for my company to finally enact a policy change enabling web-filtering at work. Sometimes it takes polarizing issues to force policy change, but I wouldn’t necessarily read into it as support for one side of this issue or another.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 14, 2008 1:29 PM
My guess is that he’s betting that the minds in charge of the university will have to get the point demonstrated by his hazing charge. Those in the church may not get it, but unlike most situations like this, they are not the ones determining the case (for once) – that is up to the school. I doubt it will work, but I think it has a better chance of doing so in a place where the administrators are so directly responsible for adhering to the rule of law, and not the rule of doctrine. Even so, I still doubt he’ll accomplish much other than making a point., for the very reason you pointed out:
(bold mine for emphasis…)
Nicely put, and IMHO a quite accurate prediction of how this thing will eventually play out. I think in the end, we’ll find that the university administrators will find a way to please the religiots while at the same time not actually punishing Cook for his non-crimes.
I think Cook’s hazing gripe is intended for the reviewing authorities. An incentive to get both sides to STFU about it all and peacefully get past this brouhaha.
As for don’t feed the trolls, my question is “Don’t feed them to whom?” I suppose he doesn’t want US feeding on them :
This little bit from Beckwith relates, as far as I can tell, to the server that handles older Pharyngula posts and comments (pre-Scienceblogs), which may very well be a university server.
Now understand that I’m not saying that I know this to be the case. It’s what I have surmised.
If correct, it may be that Myers will have to move the pre-Scienceblogs stuff off of the server. I mean, it’s a trivial matter, overall, but technically it may not agree with university policy (or even strict church-state separation).
Well, no matter over the long term. Ideally it would all be transferred to Scienceblogs anyhow, and Myers may just have to do so much more quickly than he has done thus far.
Beckwith may be technically right, but if so, it’s a meaningless little issue that no doubt will be sorted out soon enough.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
300 baud? I remember the old days in the UK when a bad line meant you got 150! 300 was the stuff of a madman’s dreams!
/So old now
//1.5Mbs is like a mushroom trip on fast forward
Posted by: pzph | July 14, 2008 1:41 PM
My guess would be that they didn’t want the influx of web traffic that this site got over this controversy – especially considering how tolerant, loving, and oh-so-Christian the responses from such people have been.
You can see it as the University agreeing with the CL if you want. But I see it as the University seeing the ever-predictable horde of loud, knee-jerk intolerance coming and promptly closing the shutters to insulate itself. Considering the fact that that’s the largest move the University has made in response to this situation, I think the latter is more likely to be true.
Am I really making that point? Really? Here I thought I was just being curious, but I’m grateful that such an accomplished mind-reader like yourself is here to correct me on what thoughts happen between my ears. Thank you SOOO much.
And apparently while it’s wrong of me to allegedly read into the situation, for you to do so is perfectly fine. *shrug*
Good luck, Myers.
Here’s what Beckwith writes about UMM supporting Myers’s “anti-religious screeds”:
I don’t think he quite understands what’s going on with the “mirror” of Pharyngula on the UM server, rather it appears to be as I related in my most recent comment.
But if you believe what the UM spokesman says, the link should be back eventually, with a disclaimer. We’ll see if it happens, and if it does, how soon.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Sorry, but this is ass-backwards. Why would links on the university site have anything to do with the influx of traffic here? The links were from there to here, not here to there. If the university was concerned about traffic, they’d ask PZ to remove the link to their website under his pic here.
To all, you can lay off the 1800flowers girl. My work address was “spoof spammed” this very weekend, although not related to this event. It’s nothing uncommon. It does create a hassle for the innocent party though. Lucky for me all I got were some delivery failure reports.
And does anybody else envision a dog barking through the fence at any passerby when Bill Donohue speaks?
Prof MTH,
Cricky, it’s got nothing to do with communion guidelines, nor violation of rules within an organization, nor being accountable to an university, nor university regulations.
There is a law (florida statute 871.01) which says that you should not willfully interrupt or disturb a religious assembly.
So, the question is, did he, or did he not, willfully interrupt or disturb a religious assembly ?
If this ends up going to court, how will he defend his case in court ?
When he still appears on a facebook page where instead of explaining that he never had any intention to disrupt the assembly, and to explain what really happened, he appears to be giving the munitions to the accusation to make their case :
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=18707785558
So, now, do you honestly believe that the counter claims that he is making have any chance to dissuade the opponents to drop the claims that they are making ?
When PZ was at the Atlanta Pharyngulfest, I asked him if the University had contacted him before taking down the link on the faculty page. He said that they did, so I will assume that the decision was arrived at mutually, for the benefit of all concerned, but I may be wrong.
Posted by: pzph | July 14, 2008 2:16 PM
I said that their removal of the link was in response to objections that their site had a link to this one. And if you’re suggesting that the traffic that was so loud and opposed to PZ on this site stayed here, without going over to the University site and making the same objections to UofM administrators, then you’re just not paying attention to what has happened so far.
You’re ignoring the fact that they removed the link after receiving a ridiculous amount of the types of e-mails that PZ himself received, any of which pointed out their objection to the fact that the University had a link to PZ’s site. Get rid of the link, get rid of their objection.
As for PZ removing the link to their site from this one, if they truly thought he had broken or violated some regulation, I’m sure they would ask him to remove it. But he didn’t, so they haven’t. Just goes to support the idea that they removed their link simply to quiet those original objections about their site.
@ # 74
Fine. You weren’t. I humbly retract my assumption.
So, what was your point, then? I’m not assuming anything at this point. Just curious.
Henry at 78:
It’s not so simple; Melanie from 1-800 FLOWERS was established as the actual author of the mail, meaning it was sent out of 1-800-FLOWERS servers and such.
My business uses a web-based mail server, and we trade off computers all the time and people forget to log themselves out all the time.
We have ‘hazed’ people to remind them to do so by sending out emails under their name to our (good humored) manager claiming, for instance, that one of our new workers was resigning to pursue his life’s goal of becoming a ballerina.
I think you may be right about influencing the administration but not necessarily the Catholics, brokenSoldier.
Speaking of opinionated university types and disclaimers, I read What’s New by Bob L. Park, professor of physics at the University of Maryland, cantankerous critic of pseudo-science, intelligent design, and other affronts to science. His weekly column ends with the disclaimer:
Opinions are the author’s and are not necessarily shared by the University, but they should be.
Posted by: negentropyeater | July 14, 2008 2:21 PM
After I read the description of that group on the Facebook page, I got the impression that they are simply trying to show support for Cook’s position that he was assaulted and harassed for not eating the wafer immediately. I didn’t find any suggestion that Cook went there to deliberately disturb Mass, which would have to be the central point of any prosecution under the relevant statute.
I seriously doubt that his counter-claims will work, but I do think it throws a bit of a wrench into the works. I don’t think he actually made the counter-claim to get those making the complaints against him to stop – instead, I think he made them to throw the school into a dilemma where they are forced to examine his side. At the very least, the school is beholden to give his claim the exact same attention that they give the claims made against him. So while it might not work, it certainly won’t hurt, IMHO.
It has?!?!?
Where?
I’ve always wondered exactly which bit of Jesus’ body the cracker has become. His holy peritoneum? His holy spleen? His holy vas deferens?
They just all seem so symmetrical and homogeneous. I mean, if some of the crackers were shaped like little elbow macaronis I could imagine I’m eating a small slice of his holy small intestines.
melior, that post has me thinking of Robin from the campy Batman days. Holy Vas Deferens, Batman!
Well, at least they get Jesus’ whiteness correct.
For me, one thing that could make cracker-jackin’/cracker-frackin’ even better:
At the office of Kenneth Miller in Providence ~~~
*headdesk* *headdesk* *headdesk* *headdesk*
Brokensoldier,
is Webster Cook an Atheist or a Catholic ?
I just sent PZ an email containing threats of violins. Let’s see if he posts it with identifying information.
and it’s like trying to read the 21st century internet over a 300 baud modem
Ah, memories of the Galapagos. Particularly when I was trying to google more information about how exactly Jerry Falwell landed in the orchestra pit, while somebody was watching me for my reaction. ;-) I laugh when I’m nervous! Okay?
negentropyeater,
It’s my understanding that he is a Catholic that brought a non-Catholic friend with him to the Mass, and his theft of the wafer was ‘discovered’ after he had taken communion and as he was bringing it back to his seat to show his friend, who had wondered what it looked like.
Little round funny-tasting crackers that melt in your mouth but not in your hand, maybe?
Seems to me that would apply more to those who made an issue out of it by grabbing the guy.
No one said we had to behave nicely. We can go right ahead with the usual business of behaving badly.
On this side of the pond, that would be classified as “cruel and unusual punishment.”
I’ve loved English pubs ever since a friend and I got locked in with the locals in a Salisbury pub at closing time. We saw the owner pulling down the windowshades and all, but we didn’t realize what was happening. After all, no American bar closes at 11 pm!
Besides, the place was still full of people. A soccer team and their friends had come in around 15 minutes before that to celebrate a big win, and they invited us Yanks to join them. So we stayed until the party broke up sometime around 2 am. My friend and I were still crosseyed the next morning, but it was worth it!
I vote for the pancreas.
Knock ’em dead, PZ!
Possible new Pharyngumeme?
“Don’t feed the trolls frackin’ crackers.”
It’s a weird day today.
No, no, it’s like Chicken McNuggets. Wafer shaped pieces of Jesus meat. Reconstituted, you know.
brokensoldier,
yes, that’s also the story which I have read.
Now, on this facebook page it doesn’t explain this, but it does say :
– Why is this wafer different from all other wafers?
– Well, this wafer was purchased with SGA money. About $40,000 of your tuition dollars is spent annually on religious organizations, to support purchases like these wafers.
-related groups :
Atheist, Agnostic, and Non-Religious
George Carlin RIP
Atheist’s Wager
Now don’t you think this undermines his story ?
I wonder if they intentionally were echoing the Passover Seder language? If so, that’s pretty funny. (And if not, it’s still pretty funny.)
Posted by: negentropyeater | July 14, 2008 3:57 PM
Yeah, I agree that it gives ammunition to those who only want to discredit him, but I’d also offer that it is false ammunition. I don’t know what Cook thinks, but to me, the only minds I would care about convincing are the ones at the University, who are supposed to be able to see through such smearing.
I try to look at it through his point of view when considering him joining this group. He is a college student who knows all about the benefits of exposure on Facebook, and as he is basing his arguments on the regulations of public financing of religious organizations, I’m not surprised to see that the site does the same. Also, though I may be mistaken, I get the impresson that he was asked to sign on to the site, rather than organizing it himself. He isn’t an admin on the site, and I couldn’t find where he had made one comment or other contribution to it, other than being listed as ‘the victim.’
So while I can see where it might hurt him with public opinion, I see it as a situation where the benefit outweighs that concern, and that might be why he signed on.
re #30 if one of The Endless can be trapped by some chanting and runes then it must be easy to mystically imprision a mere Mediterranean God-man.
I’ll get right on it. I’ll just need someone to translate the ancient Babylonian glyphs for me.
This is pretty much my own argument that the desecration of the host is impossible. Or more formally:
1 ) Pretend, for the sake of argument, that God exists
1a) God is defined as being perfect
1b) God is defined as being omnipotent
1c) God is defined as being omniscient
1d) God is defined as being benevolent (note: Catholicism apparently does not consider God to be omnibenevolent, from what I can recall on the Catholic Encyclopedia article on Hell)
2 ) Pretend, for the sake of argument, that Catholicism is true.
2a) Catholicism is the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.
3 ) Pretend, for the sake of argument, the the Eucharist is real
3a) The ritual of the Eucharist is that a priest consecrates the wafers and wine and God transubstantiates into them.
4 ) Now, what is a priest? A priest is a man; a weak, imperfect, sinner like all men, who has been ordained by the Church, which was established by God. Thus, the priest receives any authority he has from God, ultimately.
5 ) Given that the priest receives his authority from God, and is clearly far weaker than God anyway, it cannot be the case that the priest can in any way compel God to do anything. The inferior cannot give orders to the superior, nor can the weaker compel the stronger.
6 ) Therefore, the ritual of consecration cannot be compelling God to transubstantiate, but must rather be inviting God to transubstantiate.
7 ) Any invitation can, of course, be refused, if acceding to the invitation would be improper.
8 ) It is a tenet of Catholicism that it is improper for those who do not have faith in Catholicism should not partake of the host. This includes the point that the host should be consumed immediately.
9 ) God, being omniscient, knows all things, including the hearts of humans.
10 ) Therefore, God knows who does and does not have faith in Catholicism.
11 ) God, being omniscient, knows all things, including the future and the past
12 ) Therefore, God knows exactly who will receive which wafer that is has the ritual of consecration performed over it.
13 ) God, being perfect and benevolent, would never do anything that is improper.
14 ) Therefore, since it would be improper to transubstantiate into a wafer which God knows will be received by someone who does not have faith in Catholicism, God can, and indeed, must, refuse to transubstantiate into those wafers which will be received by those who do not have faith in Catholicism.
15 ) Therefore, it is impossible to desecrate a host, since all wafers that will be taken with the intent to desecrate will not have had God transubstantiate into them, and therefore will not be hosts.
16 ) Therefore, Cook did not receive a wafer into which God had transubstantiated. God simply refused to do so, since God, being omniscient, knew of Cook’s intent to not consume the host immediately.
17 ) Therefore, should someone sneak a wafer from out of a communion ceremony, and convey it to PZ Myers (atheist), God will know of the intent to begin with, and will not transubstantiate into that wafer.
18 ) Therefore, PZ Myers, according to plain and obvious theologic, will not be desecrating the host, but will instead be simply abusing a
goddamnfracking cracker.QED.
Mmm. Syllogilicious. I coulda been a theologian…
It’s not so simple; Melanie from 1-800 FLOWERS was established as the actual author of the mail, meaning it was sent out of 1-800-FLOWERS servers and such.
When did they find this out?
My co-worker got some Delivery Failures in her mailbox one morning and spam had been sent through company servers through her account, but not by her (her computer wasn’t even on, but laying in its bag on her couch when it was sent). It was a spammer. It’s common…
It would be pretty funny though if the actual perpetrator of that email lost their job over such idiocy, I’m just hoping she wasn’t the idiot dumb enough to do that from a work address.
Whoo-hoo! Sandman references! Now Gaiman is a god in whom I can believe.
Owlmirror #102,
My bets are on you for the Molly this month.
Re: #2
“Is there any way to make religion look any more silly than their own shenanigans do”.
Yes, there is. That is by letting individuals like Mr. Cook abuse the sacred with impunity. That would show that religious people do not see their religion as a serious matter.
Re: #41
It is about freedom of speech and expression and the limitations thereto. Those freedoms are not absolute. If you accept employment with a public agency, in this case a public university, the employment agreement usually states that you will refrane from any behaviors that will reflect negatively on the public agency. Offering to desecrate an object that is considered sacred by a goodly number of the student body which is Catholic would come under the aegis of negative reflection. It could move other students to tease of harass Catholic students thereby creating a hostile learning environment for the Catholic students. The university cannot allow a particular segment of its student body to be discriminated against based on their religious identify.
Regarding freedom of speech: If you work for a public agency, for example, you cannot express your preference for a particular political candidate by putting his sticker on the bumper of your car or his sign on your front lawn. That is a violation of the Hatch Act. So, when you are employed in the public sector you agree to certain limitation on your freedoms. It makes no difference that the car is your’s and the lawn is your’s.
Quite true.
As private individuals, the Catholics of the University of Central Florida are free to worship as they wish.
However, the University of Central Florida, being a publicly funded university, cannot provide any monetary support to the Catholics of the University of Central Florida, since that would violate the Federal laws separating Church and State.
Gay man sues Bible’s publishers for causing harassment: Powell’s book blog, Monday, Item 3.
In addition to campaigning to get the churches’ free tax ride rescinded (why pay their salaries so they can insult us?), maybe we can make this a class action suit. And one for women.
Could someone with the pope Rat’s email address forward owlmirror’s comment to the old codger?
Although, it might precipitate a thud followed by black smoke from the Vatican.
DavidONE, except he’s a bit busy over here in Sydney for World Youth ‘Day’ (which is going on all this week — including closing our main street for a substantial chunk of its length from 10am to midnight until Friday — ending with an overnight vigil on Saturday and bid do on Sunday). Might not have time to read his email. He probably has secretaries for that.
I’ve been to GECCO a few times, and you (PZ) have nothing to worry about. The overwhelming majority of your audience will be clever enough to grasp the concepts but not really interested in any details.
EvoDevo ideas are really applicable to evolutionary computation, but they have so far been mostly ignored (they make things very complicated). There is a lot of potential gain from promoting a more developmental model.
You may find use a term coined (I think) by Kurt Fleischer, “developmental gain” to describe how small mutational (or environmental) inputs can lead to to big phenotypic changes. Of course, canalization is the other side of the coin, which is also perhaps a useful think to remind CS folks of… robustness is a bit of a fetish (for good reason), and that is the evolutionary computation way of getting it IMO.
BTW: for anyone interested in such things, this is a really cool ‘Developmental’ model which Kurt Fleischer made for his dissertation over a decade ago. His goal was to model how neural networks in brains actually develop.
http://www.gg.caltech.edu/~kurt/Devsim/devsim.html
You’ve probably seen some applications of his work, since it is (or at least was) used to map fur, scales, ect onto the skin in computer images and animation. After graduating, Kurt went to Pixar, though I don’t know what he is up to these days… really cool guy.