You asked for it, I deliver. Here’s a good chunk of the opposition email that I’ve received in the last two days; not quite all of it, though, since I got bored and a lot of it has just been going straight into the trash. I’ve tried to cut out most of the identifying names and so forth, but if I missed a few…tough.
Trust me, it’s very tiresome to read.
I know you are smarter than most people and probably even God himself, if you even believe in God. But you could learn something in humility. And there is nothing wrong with a Catholic standing up for his faith. In fact, a Catholic who doesn’t defend his faith is an ignorant Catholic. Mr. Donohue defends the Catholic faith and deserves praise from all Catholics. I bet your one of those tolerant professors who shows tolerance to everything but Christianity. But I am sure your are proud of bashing the Catholic faith.
I can definitely score a Eucharist for you. You may not care for the taste though, but then again I don’t care for your moronic position regarding the desecration of the Eucharist. Would you be bold enough to take this type of childish stance if it were involving a sacred Muslim object/ I’d bet cash money that you wouldn’t as folks like you hide in the insulated academic world, as you are too frightened and inept to work in the corporate world where one is paid and advances based on performance, not liberal childish rants. Where do you want me to send it?
The Catholic League is going after your job because you are a vile anti-
Catholic bigot who really does deserve to pay a high price professonally for
such a public act of contempt for the Catholic faith of tens of millions of
your fellow countrymen. I intend to write to your University and support the
call for disciplinary action against you (and encourage all my colleagues to do
likewise) for misusing your University’s resources to express hatred and for my
faith. You are confusing free speech for hate speech and the U. of Minnesota
would do very well to help you see the difference, since you have given every
sign of lacking the emotional, social and intellectual resources to make such
an elementary distinction.
IF Catholics had half the testosterone of muzzies, the answer would be simple. Holy hollowpoint. But alas, I expect they will whimper and grovel as usual.
I am sure you are a very intelligent man and that is why it surprises me that you would find the time to spew such vile anti-catholic bigotry about something held sacred in a religion of over a billion people. Surely you have more valuable things to do with your time than hate filled blogs about the Holy Eucharist. I wont waste a lot of my time or your time trying to change your mind through a debate. All I can say is please refrain from hate filled blogs. It makes what is supposed to be an intelligent person look very small minded. Keep hope as I’m sure you are being prayed for.
just read that you are looking to desecrate the Eucharist. It’s great to know that America’s institutions of “higher learning” have gifted folks like you teaching future generations. Sometimes I worry about whether or not our schools and universities are filled with a bunch of whack-jobs spewing nothingness into the minds of our young. I need not worry any more…with “professors” like you, Mr. Myers, I know we are in great shape.
God help us (us includes you).
PS – I find it rather funny that so many people are incredibly tolerant (nice buzzword) until they feel offended. Then all tolerance goes out the window.
So, would you really do something like that? Really? I can only suppose, then,
that you also wouldn’t mind defecating on a Buddha in a temple, or urinating on
a Torah while it’s still in its Ark, or maybe you’d go for stuffing a Koran
down a toilet and flushing. Were you the kind of brother that would tear off
the head of your sister’s favorite doll? – or step on one of your
mother’s favorite plants? I saw your picture on the university’s website
and you look like a pretty even-tempered man. You don’t look like a man that
would do what you described above, let alone say it. What happened man?
Seriously – what happened?You should be nicer in what you say and do to people and to the things those
people hold dear. If you don’t have anything good to say – don’t say anything
at all.
Why are you such an insensitive man? Do you think you’re funny? Your comments hurt a lot of people-but don’t worry-we’ll pray for you!
Hey Mr. Critical, I dare you to do something to desecrate Islam. -Oh thats right; they are not passive like Christians and a loud mouth Jerk like yourself would get jihaded. My guess is your principles stop when it gets scarry!
I’ll be looking for you’re new “Islam Posting” you pussy. I don’t think you have the balls though!
Take a good look in the mirror-is there a soul in there? I sure hope you find it.
Unfortunately,
You couldn’t help yourself! Pay the tax payers for your advertising!
Free loader!
You are another fine example of good education dollars gone to waste…..I hope your resume is up to date, because after your latest diatribe regarding the Eucharist, you are going to be out of a job. Good riddence.
is it so easy to acquire academic status at this seat of learning (UMM) that the acquisition to Professor be given to the one least fitting?
I refer you to Prof Paul Zachary Myers and his alleged remarks regarding the Eucharist, or Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ, Son of the living God.
I do not know the professor but if I am to understand his mental state he considers the Eucharist merely a ‘Frackin Cracker’?
If this be the case why would an alleged intelligent person (supposed) become so enraged over a ‘Frackin Cracker’?
This Prof lectures in Science and Mathematics and if he said those things that would hardly be Scientific or Mathematical.
For instance he could have responded by saying what is the Mathematical odds of the Eucharist being what it is claimed to be?
Or he could have said those Christians are not very Scientific in their beliefs and he could have acted in a more mature fashion.
He chose to do neither of these but apparently flew off at a ‘Tangent’ and became quite un-scientific in what he would or would not do to a small ‘host’, and before photographers as well.
Is he that un-stable and lacking in attention that he would resort to childish behaviour without regard to his faculty or the example set to his students?
I say again the standard set for academic heads in this university needs to be addressed.
Perhaps Mr Myers has deep seated animosity toward Christians and somehow seeks redress for his earlier years as a Jewish person (assumed) growing up in the wrong neighbourhood?
If that is the case then Christians everywhere apologise and assure him we do not hate Jewish people but love them as elder brothers and sisters in Christ.
We would like him to reciprocate in kind and give up the hatred that drives him to say such things against the only person in the Universe that really loves him, and that is Christ.
He will understand the immensity of that love being in the science faculty. Regards
Paul, why are you persecuting Me?
We will be praying for you and for your conversion in reference to your “It’s a Frackin’ Cracker!” comments.
Perhaps Prof. Myers should try desecrating the Koran next time … or perhaps you should censure him, and let him know that 21st century people don’t go bashing other folks religious beliefs. What Prof. Myers problem is … drinking too much, or just he just like bullying soft targets … as his boss you need to address the BIG BLACK EYE he just gave your school … nationwide! All Catholic kids would do well do avoid your campus until you resolve this issue.
I know that you are just acting out because you are spending your career at a fourth tier university (wasn’t the community college hiring?) Would you go to a Mosque and eat a ham sandwich? No of course not, because you are a typical whiny college professor. Are you upset because your boyhood priest didn’t show you any love?
As a Catholic professor in theology I am deeply sadden by your comments. If this were said about the Muslim Koran or the Jewish faith the media would be all over you and you would lose your job. But not if you attack the Catholic Church. Your University turns a blind eye. Shame on them.
What do you have against Catholics and our faith to make you say such harsh and evil things?
I am a believing Catholic and saw the statements about the Eucharist you posted at 10:40 a.m. today (July 10, 2008) on the Pharyngula website (“It’s a Frackin’ Cracker!”). I found your e-mail address on the University of Minnesota’s web page, Dept. of Biology.
You trample one of the very dearest beliefs of Catholicism in brutally offensive terms, and you propose heinous sacrilege. I was very sorry to read that and earnestly hope and pray that you will not follow through on your desire to commit sacrilege with a consecrated Eucharist.
It is profoundly disturbing that you are in a position of authority over students most surely including Catholics, Orthodox, Episcopalians and other Christians who believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
As I’m sure you are now aware one of your staff members, Paul Myers, has publicly made remarks that are extremely offensive to the sensibilities of all Orthodox and Roman Catholics:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/its_a_goddamned_cracker.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/now_ive_got_bill_donohues_atte.phpI understand that Prof. Myers has the constitutional right to speak his mind on whatever issues he feels compelled, however as a staff member of your university it is my understanding that Prof. Myer is expected to adhere to code of conduct that fosters respect and civility towards people of all backgrounds and beliefs:
http://www1.umn.edu/regents/policies/academic/Code_of_Conduct.htmlProf. Myers comments have clearly gone beyond any reasonable dialog and I don’t think it would be too much of a stretch to say that they constitute hate speech.
I am not asking for any specific action on your part, as I trust that you will know best how to ensure that the values of tolerance and civility are being fostered at your University. However, I did want to ensure that you were aware that these comments were made and that they are being associated with University of Minnesota on a national level:
http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1459
Dear President Bruin:
It appears that Professor Paul Z. Myers is either insane or, if there is a difference, a rabid hater of the Catholic Church as he has publicly (With ID as one of your teachers) stated that he will publicly desecrate the Holy Eucharist in the form of a consecrated communion host.
If he is generally against religion, I suggest that he show the courage of that position by publicly using a copy of the Koran to wipe his behind. If he plans to do so, please let me know so I can give prior notice to the Muslim communities in your State AND recommend to a mathematics instructor I know to apply to fill the sudden vacancy of Dr. Myers’ position.
Unless Dr. Myers is severely disciplined I would recommend to the University of Wisconsin, Marquette University and all other schools that they do NOT accept credit transfers from your school as to serious doubts as to the quality of instruction there.
I do not wish to remove your cranium from your backbone.
I do not know what drives you to be an intolerant hypocrite of an Atheist.
But I would be happy to press charges of committing a “hate crime.”
Do not stand in line for the Eucharist in my parish; I would be sure to prevent you from committing a heinous desecration
How did you ever get hired? You sure won’t get tenure, and don’t deserve it. I’m writing to the President for what its worth.
I urge you to stand up against the hate-filled “professor” Paul Zachary Myers, and the University President Robert Bruininks for allowing Mr. Myers to spew hateful Anti-Catholic tirades that can be accessed directly from the U of M’s web site. I EMPLOR YOU TO STOP GIVING ANY MONEY TO THE UNIVERSITY UNTIL MR. MEYERS IS HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR HIS BIGGOTRY!
Here is an excerpt of his July 8 post, “It’s a Frackin’ Cracker!” accessed from the U of M website:
“Can anyone out there score me some consecrated communion wafers?” Myers continued by saying, “if any of you would be willing to do what it takes to get me some, or even one, and mail it to me, I’ll show you sacrilege, gladly, and with much fanfare. I won’t be tempted to hold it hostage (no, not even if I have a choice between returning the Eucharist and watching Bill Donohue kick the pope in the balls, which would apparently be a more humane act than desecrating a goddamned cracker), but will instead treat it with profound disrespect and heinous cracker abuse, all photographed and presented here on the web.”
If any professor denigrated and insulted homosexuals, Muslims, threatened to desecrate the Koran, or insulted Martin Luther King in this way you would have an all-out riot on your hands. However, as usual, it seems to be open season on Catholics with no consequences.
Paul Myers is a buffoon with zero intellectual qualities and has no business on your University’s staff. If you don’t believe me just check out the level of immaturity and stupidity he displays on his blog.
I read your blog about the consecrated host being a “frackin’ cracker”, and criticizing, objecting to a position the Catholic League took against a student at the university of Central Florida.
Needless to say, as a devout Roman Catholic, I join with thousands of others who were very offended by your remarks. I believe that the “frackin’ cracker”, as you so cleverly referred to the Sacred Host, is the Body of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ consecrated by a priest at Mass under the appearance of a wafer of unleavened bread. This is my faith and that of millions of other orthodox Catholics. You have offended us grievously. If you have such apparent regard for the sincere faith of others, I challenge you to publish a similar disparaging remark about the Koran or other sacred beliefs of Islam, or for that matter any other religion.
I demand that you publish an apology for your offensive remark.
I pity the students who pay good money to go to college and have to listen to your arrogant diatribes against whatever subject you loathe. How totally immature and pathetic.
Would you be so brave as to use such hate-filled rhetoric against the MUSLIM tenets? I doubt you’d want a jihad launched against you for your FREE SPEECH which many Catholics in the service died giving you.
Wow PZ that’s quite a rant! Your temper is getting the best of you? As an asso professor, what a lesson you teach our children: hate, religious bigotry, intolerance, shouting instead of discussion, use of innuendo w/o facts, etc.! You must really hate Catholics.
“Scumbags” and “which hunters”? I thought liberal intellectuals were tolerant – even of those they disagree with.
Just because you’re a devout and zealous atheist (I see your blog site http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/) doesn’t mean you have to HATE and offend all Catholics. Can you not be “respectful, fair and civil”.
Yesterday almost no one outside of the narrow confines of Minnesota academia had ever heard the name of Paul Zachary Myers. But today the name rings with infamy, and has become synonomous with hatred and intolerance. You might have gained renown for some tremendous scientific breakthrough, or for touching the minds and hearts of your students. Instead you have become notorious for your ignorance and your bigotry. Your story, Paul, is truly tragic.
If you are not Catholic than you have no reason to publicly opine about the doctrine of Eucharistic transubstantiation. You certainly have no right to parade your ignorance and sacrilege via a link to the university’s web page. If you had so publicly mocked the culture of blacks, Muslims, homosexuals, or Jews than you would be (rightfully) without a job today. But since you picked on Catholics and their beliefs, you probably feel that you are professionally in the clear since it is very fashionable in the academic sphere to trash Christianity in general and the Catholic Church in particular.
As a Jew who has been baptized a Catholic I can say I am no stranger to either anti-Semitism or to anti-Catholicism. Both lead to the same conclusion, Paul: the perpetrators become lesser human beings.
Shame on you for abusing your academic pulpit in this way. I pray that the university authorities will handle your case with wisdom and with justice.
Paul, you have some bridges to build after this terrible misdeed. Make amends, and stop hating for hate’s sake.
Myers: How about dropping your ignorant, immature, hate-filled, bigoted stunt? If you do desecrate the Body and Blood of Christ, you are playing with fire, and you will regret it eternally. I know how people like you laugh at and scorn people like me, but I’m afraid God will get the last laugh on this one. GOD IS NOT MOCKED. Because I’m Catholic, I have to pray for you, and I will, but in the end, you’re the one with free will to accept or reject Jesus. Good luck–you’ll need it.
I am writing to express my outrage at Professor Myers’ expressed intention to desecrate a consecrated Host, an object held sacred by Roman Catholics. Yes, we all know by now that the professor holds all religion in utmost contempt — he’s made that clear enough to the general public. However, what he is asking for on his blog post goes beyond the pale. As American citizens who enjoy the right to the freedom of religious expression, Catholics should also have the right to be free from this sort of harassment against our faith, especially from a professor who is paid with tax dollars, tax money which we Catholics also contribute.
From his latest posting, he’s obviously feeling like he’s rather immune from any sort of consequences. If that turns out to be true, then I will be deeply disappointed. Obviously, there isn’t much I can do. I won’t threaten him because such threats would be empty and stupid (and those who have threatened him should be ashamed of themselves). I can’t say I’ll boycott paying my taxes as the State wouldn’t appreciate it. However, I can call on those who are in authority to exercise that authority appropriately and to at least reprimand him for what should be easily recognized as truly outrageous behavior.
I seriously doubt that he would ask someone to get him a Koran from a mosque or a copy of the Torah from a synagogue in order to publicly desecrate them since, after all, they’re only pieces of paper with ink on them. Asking for the Koran would probably bring him and the U of M physical harm. Asking for a Torah would bring a swift lawsuit from the ADL. Right now, all he’s getting is a public scolding from the Catholic League and some nasty e-mails. Therefore, I hope the U of M sees this for what it is — a serious offense against Catholics — and takes appropriate action.
I honestly pity the hatred that you seem to embody. Anybody that did threaten you or was hateful was absolutely wrong….however one cannot but pity the sadness, anger and frustration that is clearly evident in the way you write. It truly would not take a psychologist to see how toxic to you your own poison actually is!!
I am not sure what form of education gave you the licence to speak the way you do or made you think that “you’re it”, however, truly you would do yourself an immense favor (probably more than anybody else), if you at least minimized the amount of trash you spew and the ignorance you portray in so doing…. Truly there is no limit to stupidity!
As a Catholic I forgive you. May God bless you and enlighten your mind.
What a sad, pathetic man you are. You were raised a Christian – why all the hatred and name calling? What did we ever do to you to make you hate us so much? As a taxpayer who’s helping pay your salary I’m entitled to have a say over vitriol posted on a public site that rips into me and my beliefs.
I want to tell you how disgusting your blasphemy is to me as a Catholic and as a UMM grad.
I have asked to be removed from any further contact with UMM and will never give another dime towards any alumni support or scholarship support. It is quite interesting how you who are amongst the most liberal denigrate and blaspheme that which you know nothing about and criticize that which is sacred and holy.
I just read the July 8, 2008 rant by Prof. Myers, in which he pledges to
desecrate the Catholic Eucharist (which Catholics consider to be holy).
Frankly, I am astounded that your University would allow such vitriolic
hatred and bigotry to be spewed from one of its Professors! I don’t think
I’ve ever before come across such prejudice and hatred in print! The fact
that he teaches students (some of whom are Catholic) is most troubling. Is
this the kind of person parents and taxpayers pay to influence the minds of
their students? I wonder if Catholicism is belittled in his classroom as
well–who knows? Clearly, he is an immature man and a first class bigot.I certainly hope that you and the Board of Regents will treat this matter
with the seriousness it deserves. In such cases, I’ve found that it’s often
enlightening to argue by analogy and to substitute another group for the one
which is being denigrated. Thus, instead of against Catholics, let’s assume
that Prof. Myers spewed bigotry against Jews or Blacks. For example, let’s
imagine that Prof. Myers said, “The Torah is nothing more than a piece of
paper. Can anyone out there steal me a torah? I’ll show you sacrilege,
gladly, and with much fanfare. I will treat it with profound disrepect and
heinous abuse, all photographed and presented here on the web! I intend to
urinate on it, draw swastikas on it, and then rip it up.”I’m sure that if your professor said such things regarding a holy Jewish
object, he would be instantly fired. Or, at the very least, he would be
vilified in the press and picketed by students. Great numbers of enraged
faculty members, moreover, would call for his resignation. And alumni would
boycott their contributions to the school. No one would even think to
mention freedom of speech or tenure in the face of such hatred and bigotry.Why, then, should it be any different when Catholics are the object of his
hatred and bigotry???????We need to hit him where it hurts. Perhaps I should grab a copy of his Holy
Book, which I assume to be Darwin’s Origin of Species, and desecrate that!
LOL!!
I recently found your comments on your blog, which is linked to official U of M sites, to be offensive to members of the Catholic faith. I am a 25-year old Catholic who is also a teacher and I would ask you to consider the position you have in the academic world. As a professor and a teacher of students, you are a unique position to change lives. You are, no doubt, respected for your position and your expertise. As such, you also bear a responsibility to those whom you teach to be civil and use your reason to bring others to the truth. Degrading a religious faith is an abuse of your position in society. Arguing against the doctrine of the Eucharist in a rational matter would have been a better choice. Then you could have engaged in an interesting debate. Many people would have benefited. I hope that you will consider your approach to such issues in the future. I’m sure you are a busy man, but if you would like to correspond more on the matter, I would be happy to speak with you.
if you want to get some real laughs and giggles, why not say something really disparaging about Allah?? i think we all know why, let’s see how wild and kooky you are and do that, we all know attacking Christians is easy, i think you were the kind of kid who would hand over your lunch money to the bullies at school instead of standing up for yourself, by the way, what are you doing for mankind that equals what a Mother Teresa did, and she believed in the Eucharist…oh i know, you teach biology……that is a big deal.
Your plans to publicly and intentionally debase a consecrated communion wafer have recently come to my attention. While I have the utmost respect for your right to freedom of speech, I have to strongly discourage you in this course of action. Just because you can do something, does not mean you should. Not only will you deeply offend and disrespect millions of Catholics, Orthodox and Episcopalians with such an act, you will violate the sense of mutual respect and understanding that has allowed this nation to be a forum of shared knowledge and a haven for the persecuted. Perhaps you are unaware of it due to its lack of publicity, but anti-Catholicism is alive and well. While this act might seem to be a harmless act of protest to you, it only reinforces the bigotry that many of us face on a daily basis. This act would be as offensive to Catholics as a desecration of the Koran would be to Muslims. I doubt your employers would approve of a plan for you to publicly defile the Koran, so I would hope that they will not endorse your current plan either. Why do you feel the need to do this? I am happy for you to voice disapproval with the Catholic Church, but can’t you find some other, intelligent and meaningful way of doing it? Debate a Bishop, write a paper, make a TV appearance, burn the Papal flag, just don’t carry out your plan. If you have grievances with the Church, explain your position in a public forum. That’s the American thing to do.
You have asked your reader to provide you with communion wafers for the purpose of “show[ing] you sacrilege, gladly, and with much fanfare.” I readily concede that it is extremely strange, even a little creepy, to believe that a wafer is in a real sense God, and yet that is what I do believe. I have no objection to your jokes and satirical remarks — they’re not much different from what Protestants have been saying for five hundred years, and indeed what Berengar of Tours said in the eleventh century. However, I do ask you this: that you not actually carry out your plan. I wouldn’t ordinarily make such a request of a stranger, but the thing can hardly matter to you one way or the other — as you put it, it’s a cracker — and it does matter to me. I have tried to find an analogy to explain my request and this is the best I can do: you might be entirely right that a old rag is worthless and should be thrown out, yet, if that rag were a small child’s security blanket, I doubt you would do so, to spare the child’s feelings. I put myself in the place of that child, and ask: Please don’t. I’m not asking for respect, only for a small kindness of omission: not trampling feelings for the sake of the trampling.
What do you hold sacred?
Do you respect the faith of others?
Does your employer support all kinds of diversity EXCEPT religious?
Do you support all manner of rule and law breakers?
Your threat is foolish and your reaction to the Catholic League borders on psychotic.
I urge you not to desecrate the Eucharist.
In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained.
Such a sacrilege would not only be deeply offensive to Catholics, but also to people of all faiths for such a blatant disrespect of a profoundly held religious belief.
I am getting more accustomed to the idea that there apparently exists a nascent consensus in certain academic circles that it is OK to bait Catholics (whilst other faiths- whether of religious or secular pedigree- are either ignored, tolerated, or, in certain privileged instances of natural selection, jammed down our throats by judicial decree).
I simply wish to point out that such a consensus is odious. It is ugly, uncivilized, and perfectly know-nothing.
I hope that you will determine it to be in the best interests of your institution- as it most certainly is in the best interest of limiting further self-humiliation of this ignorant boor Meyers- to advise him to leave his Catholic-bashing to his private time and resources.
You must be crazy.
Myers, you certainly sound like a B.Y.E.
What do you do in your spare time, watch The Exorcist and root for Satan?
You supposedly “teach” science and math?
I doubt it.
Remember that Freedom of Speech is not freedom to harm others, which is what you are doing.
But since you are snug in your relative values of the moment, I know that will mean nothing to you, or your sick ego.
I can’t tell you how disappointed I am regarding remarks of desecrating something that is Sacred to my family and all Catholics; the Holy Eucharist
The University of Minnesota Morris should be a beacon of enlightenment, not a cave of prejudice, hatred and ignorance. I have twins in high school and the University of Minnesota Morris is one university where I, unfortunately, will not allow them to attend. I will not have them present at a University that will entertain individuals who will hate them for their religion.
don’t know what your beliefs are, but it is sad that you have no regard for those many millions of us who love the catholic church and the Holy Eucharist. It is disappointing that someone in your position, in a university teaching our young, future leaders to desecrate something others deem holy. Perhaps you should be more considerate and learn some basic manners. You don’t need a college degree for that, do you? Certainly, this is a scathing indictment on your “institution of higher learning”.
I ran across your blog via a link from Mark Shea’s website.
Your blog is, in my opinion, a very inspirational site.
I’m retired from the military, a college graduate, and have a 99th percentile IQ, verified by High School, college, and military intelligence testing. Since you are a professor, I assume you understand percentile rankings.
I am also a convert to the Catholic Church, being fully accepted into the Church in my early 40s.
I must tell you that, far from being offended by your commentary, I am, rather, confirmed in my beliefs, and inspired by your hatred of Christ.
I used to believe, essentially, as you do, though without the vitriolic hatred. I had nothing against people who believed in God, regardless of their denominational persuasion. I just didn’t buy it.
But, over the years, as I experienced life, educated myself, studied (as a hobby) subjects such as physics, cosmology, quantum mechanics, history, theology, biology, and many other topics, I found myself realizing that there may be more to our existence than simple happenstance.
Anyway, to cut a long story short, I appreciate your blog. Christ foretold you, and many others just like you, two millennia ago when He prophesied that his followers would be hated because of Him. Pretty clever for someone you regard either as a myth, or as a deranged lunatic.
Remember, PZ, you have absolutely no verifiable explanation of why, or how, we are here. None. Your atheism is a faith equal to or exceeding that of the most committed religious zealot. You have no proof whatsoever of your atheistic beliefs. None. Zilch. Zero. You are no different in your faith than Mohammed Atta, or any of the 9/11 killers. In a way you are worse than they were; you are “educated” and “civilized”, whereas they were simply indoctrinated. But you and your kind are the greatest killers in the history of Man; see, for example, Stalin, Hitler, and Mao: they were all intellectual secularists, just like you.
You’re not at all intelligent, PZ; you’ve simply adopted the 1960s default position of taking a contrarian position to accepted or conventional wisdom, and imagining that you’ve adopted a position of “enlightenment”. It’s sad, really; you’ve achieved a position of educational eminence, yet have never learned how to think.
If you really want a wafer to desecrate, you’re welcome to come to meet me in Skowhegan at my Church; I’ll give you one, and gladly, and sadly, watch you make a fool of yourself. I’m not a bit bothered that you don’t believe in God; God may be, but I’m not.
You’re a bully, a coward, a bigot, a dullard masquerading as an intellectual, and an extremely poor writer. Incidentally, perusing the comments on your blog I was struck by the extraordinarily poor grammar and writing skills of your disciples, in addition to their ignorance, hatred, and bigotry. But not terribly surprised, actually.
As a graduate student and a convert to Catholicism (through my own, intellectual choosing), I find your disdain of Catholics and their beliefs deplorable, immature, and unprofessional. I hope that as a historian that I never call for such disrespect for any world religion as you have done, much less be responsible for the scandal that it would bring to the devotee’s hearts, faith, and well-being.
As an employee of the state, much like yourself, I would also think such offensive speculation would jeopardize my standing in the field and would limit me as I try to advance in my chosen career path.
I hope that others contact you as well, and that a heartfelt and sincere apology to Catholics and those that happen to not share you ‘enlightened’ worldview would be much appreciated by all involved in this ugly and unfortunate event.
Your posting on your website titled “It’s a frackin’ cracker!” was both rude and insensitive toward the beliefs of millions of people. Your opinions about whether or not the Eucharist is actually God are your own, and I respect your opinion, but desecrating another’s sacred and holy object is not at all respectable. Ripping apart the Eucharist for those of the Catholic faith is equivalantly worse than force-feeding a cow to a Hindu, or displaying pictures of Allah to insult the Muslim community. You do not need to act like an ass to express your beliefs. I request that you refrain from treating my God in such a disrespectful manner; in case you do not comprehend how much your suggestion has upset people, it might be equivalent to your grief had someone threatened to run over your children. Your opinions are your own, but they don’t give you license to do whatever you please. I hope your research in the biological field continues to be successful and I thank you for your time.
So i just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your ideas about
the Eucharist. It really demonstrates how incredibly far the modern
man has gone to reject God and any form of religion. It shows how far
we have fallen that you, a so called PROFESSOR would say these things.
Why do you not post something like, “Its just a ROCk” for the Temple
of the Mount and offer desecration and cursing for a piece of it. Why
do you act like this? Biology has nothing to do with theology so why
do you get involved? Your behavior is that of a child, not a PhD.You should be ashamed of yourself and you should delete the post and
offer an apology because alot of people are offended by your comments.
If it’s just a cracker, then why not just desecrate an unconsecrated host?
How about a Koran, Dr. M? How about speaking w/ a Catholic theologian?
It is absolutely unacceptable to have on faculty a professor who does not represent and honor true showmanship and academic professionalism. It is abhorring that a University should labor such a person in question of doubtful virtuous character. Teachers and faculty members represent, both as a whole and in parts, the quality and the degree of excellence of the institution. But evidence have shown to the contrary. If the University wishes to maintain its high standard and prestige, it must show the dependability on part of the administration to keep and sustain the good reputation of its academia and people.
I have read your blog before for information on evolution and found it very informative. I find it sad that you also use it to broadcast irrational, foul-mouthed rants. You are giving yourself, your university, and all biology professors a bad name. Is it only when dealing with scientific data that you can muster self-control and rational thinking (rather than running, first thing, to ad hominem)? Or can you be trusted even to impartially evaluate scientific arguments? Show some respect and please try to use a little decorum. If you were to similarly insult any group–ANY group–other than Catholics, there would be a media uproar.
I am Catholic and I understand why you wrote the posts such as “frackin cracker.” I would like to say take the instance you have a personal prized possession that to many looks like nothing special. People would look at it and say “it`s just a rock” or something along those lines but to you it is so much more. Now imagine someone threatened to take it and damage or destroy it (which I am not at all threatening) how would you feel? What if they actually did such a thing? Shock and outrage would probably comprise all or part of your reaction correct?
To you the host the Eucharist is a cracker, yes it certainly looks like one, smells like one and so on. For Catholics though when the priest speaks the words of consecration something called transubstantiation takes place whereby the appearance of bread and wine remain but they become the body blood, soul and divinity of Jesus. Yes it is difficult to grasp I know but for Catholics who believe (including me) that that really is Jesus defending the Eucharist is a big deal for that reason, they think it really is Him. They see value in that “cracker” that you do not the same way you see value in a simple object that I do not. It is only through discussion not desecration that we can come to understand the meaning behind things we hold as special but to the other look like nothing.
I would ask of you to take to your nearest Catholic church any hosts that people may send you, and give them to the priest. Please do not do anything to them. The Eucharist (those crackers) is something special to me and I would appreciate your co operation in not harming something I care about even though you do not see its value.
May I ask you to click the following link to find out how Catholics feel about our Eucharist?
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/engl_mir.htmTake your time and explore it…please explore with an open mind. I wish you well in mind, body and spirit…I wish you Eternal Truths, and a Hunger to seize you to know these Truths.
Please also, click the banner above to feed the physically Hungry. There are rising food prices and we believe that Jesus is present in everyone. But He is physically present in the Consecrated Host, and He feeds us spiritually with His Body and Blood in a form we accept as food – bread.
I can’t describe to you how deeply I know this. It is out-of-this-world information.
Even if you never believe in the Reality of God in the Consecrated Host, I would humbly ask you to respect the beliefs of others and please don’t do what you have said you will do.
Prayers, Blessings, Happiness now and for Eternity be yours!
I read an article on Catholic On-line about your intentions on desecration of the holy Eucharist. It is shameful that a person in your position of leadership over our youth in this nation would act in this manner. You should stop your sinful actions and apologize to the many Catholics who you have truly offended.
In the end, you are accountable which I will pray for your soul.
Myers rant and threats against the Holy Eucharist are a sad, but not a historically unfamiliar occurrence. I think Myers would have fit in well with other movements throughout history that sought to treat the Holy Eucharist with unholy regard. The Anarchists of the Spanish Civil War would have welcome Myers with opened arms, for example, and they surely would have supplied him with a large bundle of Eucharists.
Those throughout history that have attacked the Holy Eucharist in such a way harbor a deep seated resentment for things holy. And for Catholics, it doesn’t get much holier than the Eucharist. The Holy Eucharist represents Jesus Christ himself to Catholics, and it is beyond me why Myers would think it appropriate to desecrate Jesus Christ (again fitting in quite well with Anarchists and such). (Ironically, of course, Jesus represents the “Truth”, and it’s laughable that Univ. professor would harbor such deep resentment for the truth).
Myers is a wonderful example of an intelligent professor who, by way of his hatred of the Eucharist, has no respect for his Catholic students or co-workers. Send this professor packing. As a Catholic and an alumni of the University of MN, this man lacks an essential characteristic needed to be a Univ of MN employee, and that would of course be a basic respect for others.
As a devote Catholic I am deeply saddened by your recent statements. I respect everyone’s free will to believe what they believe but you have crossed the line from personal belief to attacking and degrading the very most important facet of my belief. I fully support your right to your beliefs and will gladly fight to protect those rights but please lets keep this a discussion. I can disagree with your beliefs but I would never destroy something you hold a sacrosanct like Darwin’s personal diaries for example just because I don’t fully agree with him.
that a scientist– someone in the business of seeking truth– is so utterly blind to it.
Do you find yourself amusing? I bet you do.
Your latest , about the Holy Eucharist , just makes you repugnant.Do you have RESPECT for anything, anyone, yourself? This is not a rhetorical question.
Why must you offend?I’m sorry that you are an atheist. I’m sorry that the Church hurt you in some way.
We will pray for you, your pathology is in need of prayer.“Love One Another ,as I Have Loved You!”
I wish to express my alarm and concern over the hateful comments of Dr. PZ Meyers concerning the desecration of the Eucharist. As a faithful Catholic and a trained cell biologist (MS Biochemistry, University of Idaho, Ph.D. Molecular and Cellular Biology, Arizona State University), I am deeply offended at Dr. Meyers’ intention to desecrate that which millions of Catholics across the country (and billions of Catholics across the world) hold as most sacred. I am certainly a believer in the freedom of speech. However, this hatred goes too far. The University of Minnesota, I am sure, values diversity in thought and in life. Dr. Meyers’ comments and intentions far eclipse academic freedom, free speech, and civility. How can he claim tolerance when he is being completely intolerant of Catholic belief and practice? He is targeting a specific group of people for their beliefs and is attacking them for the sole purpose of denigrating them. I don’t have a problem that Dr. Meyers would disagree with me about almost everything. The university is a setting where different ideas are to be weighed and debated. However, Dr. Meyers is only concerned with hatred and bigoted attack. I wonder what the response of the University of Minnesota would be if the group he was attacking were a minority, or Jewish, or Muslim, or gay? With the publicly expressed opinions and intentions of Dr. Meyers, how would one expect a Catholic student to be treated by him? Clearly as a parent and academic, I could never support anyone going to the University of Minnesota if these are the kinds of faculty members it employs.
Imagine, if you will, a steel ball the size of the earth.
Every 1,000 years, a sparrow flies by and lightly brushes its wing against the steel ball.
When those light brushes wear the steel ball down to nothing, eternity will have just begun.
That’s a long, long, long time. Some of us will be spending that time in happiness with God in heaven and some of us will be spending that time suffering with Satan in hell.
Showing disrespect for God and the Eucharist is a good way to end up with Satan.
What college did you attend that taught you to be so disrespectful? It does not bespeak of the dignity we would expect of a college professor.
ou are nothing but a coward. You would not choose a Muslim symbol to desecrate because you would be in grave danger. You pick a Catholic symbol because you know that Catholics will just pray for you.
Your actions constitute a hate crime. There will be no prosecution because hate crime laws were designed to put White Christian males in jail.
PLEASE Prof.Myers, Use your wonderful God given gift of learning to find out exactly what it is you plan to desecrate… NOT what you THINK it is!
I’m writing about your blog post from July 8 (“IT’S A FRACKIN’ CRACKER!”). This is not a piece of hate mail, and I’m sorry that you’re receiving hate mail. I don’t have a very complete understanding of the incident, but, based on what seems to have happened, while I don’t approve of what Mr. Cook did, I disapprove of the efforts to go after him, and I even admire your willingness to stick up for the young man — while not admiring some of the rhetoric you use while doing so – which I find in places to be needlessly abusive (and yes, I do recognize some on the other side are needlessly abusive, too). But what really concerns me are your proposals in your penultimate (“So, what to do”) paragraph. It’s as if your goal in writing that paragraph was to see if you could meet (and *perhaps* even surpass!) the stupidity and meanness of the worst of the examples you took to task earlier in your post. I had planned to argue to you that you should rescind that plan, complete with careful analyses of when and how we should take into account the beliefs of others that we consider to be false in deciding how to treat the people in question. But I’ve read some of your blog posts, and based on my sense of your character, I have faith that you need no argument from me here: If you just take a deep breath and objectively consider what you wrote, keeping in mind the many Catholics (and other Christian too, for that matter) who are innocent in this matter but whom you would be needlessly hurting by what you propose (even if their being hurt depends upon beliefs they hold that you take to be obviously false), I am confident you will be able to see the light. On the other hand, if I have read your character wrong (as I’m often inclined to do, being disposed to being overly charitable [perhaps even gullible] in my judgments of people, as many Christian friends have told me, based on my admiration for important aspects of Prof. Dawkins’s character), and you still think yours is a great idea after a little consideration, you are probably beyond the reach of the help of any argument I could produce, anyway.
Hey you cocksucker! I am not holy but I have respect for the religion. Go ahead and do what you intend to and then see what transpires, Ego te provoko, you worthless piece of tenured shit.
We pray for your soul. Jesus loves you, and He tells us that we are to love you too.
We feel sorry for you, that evidently you believe life is just about yourself and the “here and now”. What do you have to look forward to? Old age? What comes after that???
We pray for your conversion,
It is very rude to make fun of someone’s religion, even if you do not agree with that belief. Very sad indeed.
I wonder what has caused you to be filled with so much hate that it would drive you to these childish antics. One would think someone of your intelligence would find something more productive to to with his time.
I have no love for the Catholic church and don’t like organized religion. But I do have Catholic friends and coworkers and they seem like nice people.
If for some reason you are offended by the Catholic church then I suggest you go out and get thicker skin. I have learned a long time ago that being offended at every little thing does nothing but cause medical problems and a shorter life.
I read today that you made disparaging remarks about the holy Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ to every Catholic. Your remarks are extremely offensive, hateful, and immoral to say the least. Its hard to believe you could say such things rather than sticking to your area of study. Clearly you have a dislike for the Catholic Church and God for that matter. I sincerely pray for you this day that you will find God in your life. I hope you consider writing an apology regarding your remarks.
I think you underestimate the importance of mythology and ritual in the human condition. Yes, even your human condition. After all, your diploma is just a bit of cloth and ink, isn’t it. I don’t suppose you’d mind if I just whip one up in my basement and start teaching biology, do you? Oh that’s right, yours was consecrated by the Dean in a Late-Middle-Ages ritual. There is a lot of wrong in this situation, but you are also wrong. Please read some Joseph Campbell.
p.s., I’m not a religious whacko, I am in fact a VP of engineering and also a computer science graduate student working on my dissertation in theoretical computer science at night. I do attend church, but not Catholic; I personally don’t believe in transubstantiation. The communion ritual is an important part of the Christian church’s ability to propagate itself and has been effective for many centuries. As a biologist you should respect that.
Nice Job Mr. Myers!
Thank you for finally showing those Catholic jerks what’s what!!! You’re the man! You’re so smart! How did you ever figure the whole thing out! “Kick the pope in the balls!!!” Way to bring that holy roller back to earth! You must be like, the smartest person I’ve ever written an email to, you obviously have such a wide and deep understanding of history and the world! I mean….you’re a big important professor!!! At UM!!! That Catholic Church and its 2,000 year history has nothing on you man, you’ve got them pinned.
Don’t worry, you didn’t make yourself look like a totally ignorant fool. You looked smart! And witty! Sacrilege…that’s a big word, even for a smart guy like you, did you have to look it up? And don’t worry…you didn’t sound like a venomous hater, you sounded respectful and accepting of the Catholics, just like I’m sure you do with all people who have different beliefs than yours…..I’m going to go out a trash a mosque, and then key the first car I see in a parking lot that has one of those rainbow stickers on it, just so I can be like you!
I have just read with deep and heartfelt emotion of your intention to desecrate that which us Catholics call the Holy Sacrament of the Altar but which you call a “Frackin’ Cracker”. Please! I appeal to your better sense of respect for all to refrain from this act which is already causing me and those of the Catholic Community great pain. The intention to do this causes deep grief to those of us who hold the belief that the Host, once consecrated, is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ. I am not asking you to believe this. Far from it. I am simply asking you to respect our beliefs and to refrain from committing this act of anger and utmost disrespect towards that which over 1 billion people world wide hold sacred.
Of course you are entitled to your views on the situation which occured last week in relation to a student taking the Host from the Church and “holding it hostage” and its consequences and rightly so, but please understand that we have our views too and, greater than views, they consititue the source and summit of all we believe. In carrying out the sacrilege you threaten upon that which we consider Holy, you can in fact carry out no greater act of disrespect and hurt. You hit right at the core of our beliefs which I know you understand we are entitled to hold and believe without any disrespect or violence. Perpetrating this act will hit us all very much and will cause many of us much grief. Is this truly what you want? Are you wondering how will we respond? There is only one way we can respond and that is the way of love and forgivness. There should not ever be any violent repercussions form anyone who calls themselves Catholic. We will forgive your actions yet we will grieve over them deeply.
I finish this mail literally on my knees, begging of you to reconsider your proposed actions and turn away from the feelings of anger you have towards us. You are certainly a man of respected intelligence and your position in life has confirmed this. Your position in the world may not change as a result of your actions but remember that every decision must be followed with personal responsibility and the carried memories that you have inflicted a very great wound upon many hearts.
If, at present as you read this, there are already any Hosts in your possession, please return them to their rightful place i.e. the nearest Catholic Church. Simply return them. If you don’t wish to apolgise for your actions, don’t apologise. Just know that if you do the right thing and return them, many hearts will be most grateful and will not forget your change of heart.
Re: communion wafer… You are one sick man. One day, eventually, you’ll have to face what you’ve said today in an honest light. No, really, you will.
Save yourself some grief. Resign, go find Ward Churchill and just hang out in the same slime hole.
It is disappointing to read of your recent comments. I doubt you would dare say such insulting things about other groups such as Jews, Muslims, or gays but do feel empowered to engage in such a tirade when it comes to Catholics!
The mark of an educated person is the ability to reason and think critically. It seems your education has been deficient.
As a Catholic, I am offended by the insulting and crass comments you recently made about the Holy Eucharist. I firmly believe that this “frackin’ cracker”, as you described it, is indeed the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. If I am wrong as to the nature and identity of the Holy Eucharist and it is indeed nothing more than a wafer, your comments are still needlessly crass, offensive and incendiary. On the other hand, if I am correct, then you are also guilty of a serious offense against God for even uttering such words.
I urge you to retract and apologize for your comments. I also urge you to exercise more prudence, restraint, respect and charity in the future — regardless of the target.
I don’t know you or what your life is like, so I don’t judge you personally. You may be both nice and decent, personally. But your comments were certainly not. I hope this was merely one of those moments we all have during our lives in which we look back and think “that was not one of my better moments.”
While I do candidly believe some sort of discipline is in order because of the extreme and public nature of your comments, I will also be praying for your well-being — both temporal and eternal.
You will discover soon enough what your blasphemy gets you. Since you have said your hateful lies where me and my friends can see them, it will be sooner than you think. You’ll wish you had a cracker in Hell!
Rude, hostile, insulting bigotry may get you more page hits, but it hardly contributes much to the public discourse on religion.
If your goal was to simply appeal to the lowest common denominator, then congratulations – you win the internets. I’m sure the suburban rich white teen “rebelz” that infest your comments section are tremendously proud of you.
Thanks for, once again, making it even more difficult to be an atheist in America.
I am in complete disbelief that Professor Myers is still in good standing at your university after his mocking and hateful rampage against Catholicism’s central and most sacred doctrine of the Holy Eucharist. I urge you as President of of UM-Morris to not only make him apologize for his remarks but discipline his hateful speech.
Please take a moment to read what Mr. Meyers has posted on his faculty page on your university’s website:
“Can anyone out there score me some consecrated communion wafers?…if any of you would be willing to do what it takes to get me some, or even one, and mail it to me, I’ll show you sacrilege, gladly, and with much fanfare. I won’t be tempted to hold it hostage (no, not even if I have a choice between returning the Eucharist and watching Bill Donohue kick the pope in the balls, which would apparently be a more humane act than desecrating a goddamned cracker), but will instead treat it with profound disrespect and heinous cracker abuse, all photographed and presented here on the web.”
Is this the standard we can expect from faculty members at your state university?
Mr. Myers:
How old are you? I cannot believe that a “professor,” representing his 1) college 2) country
3)state 4) family 5) himself…chooses to throw a temper tantrum which gets international attention. You will desecrate the Eucharist, huh? I live in Germany. We had lots of your ilk running around here 65 years ago…and you may have read about the consequences. Why don’t you desecrate the Koran, or a Torah? You do not believe in either of them either, but, like all cowards, you stroke your big Morris, Minnesota ego by attacking the last legal target of predjudice…the Catholic Church. Boy, you must have really been hurt at one time…maybe by someone in the Church. Grow up! Act like an educator. Swallow your pride, admit you said something absolutely stupid, and seek humility.
I hope you weren’t serious about what you were threatening to do. I disagree with many different beliefs of people but I respect their right to their beliefs, including your right to disagree. I would not wish you harm or want to deface your property or possessions. You may have wanted to get attention, and that you have. I ask you to reconsider the sacra ledge you proposed, if only because it is hurtful to others. I will pray for you.
I own 4 guns. I bet liberal vermin like you don’t own any.
Why would you be so insensitive to Catholics worldwide with your hateful ranting’s about something billions of people worldwide hold so dear? I just wanted you to know that your words cause me a profound sadness and I pray you come to feel heartfelt contrition over the pain your words have caused to so many.
Professor Myers is a disgusting, immature guttersnipe. You should put him in the unemployment line post haste.
If he had insulted Jews, or Muslims this wouldn’t even be a question…the bum would have been fired.
Come on down to Florida. We know how to welcome bastards like you…..with a bullet.
Try desecrating anything Muslim and see what happens.
Why are you against Catholics? I’m sure we don’t care how you worship. You must just be trying to get attention.
Just for your information: The main reason the Eucharist is so closely guarded is that they are coveted by those who participate in satanism and the black mass. It’s not a “frackin’ cracker” to them.
PS. I’m ashamed a professor from a Minnesota University would utter such depraved private thoughts.
I hope that you will consider the abusive and completely unnecessary behavior of Paul Myers in its true light. His hate speech is beyond offensive, even to those of use who are not Donohue-esque zealots.
Please try having the same respect for others that you expect (and demand) for yourself.
On his blog Pharyngula, PZ Myers asked that letters of support for him be sent to you. In good conscience, however, I can’t do that. Reading Myers’ writings on Pharyngula quickly convinces any reader who doesn’t share his faith in Darwinism that the man is an insufferable ass who brings discredit to your university. If you’re not ashamed to have him on your faculty, you should be.
Over the past few days controversy has erupted over your stated intention to obtain a concecrated host from a Catholic Church and to desecrate it live on the web.
Having read your original post on the subject I find the level of disrespect displayed towards Catholics absurd, it abounds with irational ad hominum attacks and falls short of the standards that students such as myself expect from those who teach us.
Whilst I can understand that some of your views of Catholics have been coloured by abusive comments from my fellow co-relgionists, it could be argued that you have intentionally baited them with your less than tactful comments and that you bought this torrent of absue on yourself.
Whilst I respect you as a professor in your established field, I would also ask that you respect my beliefs and those of my co-religionists
Aren’t you cool! Another big-mouthed Christian buster. Play with the Sacrament, demon boy. Everything will play out in the end.
Are you by chance a former Catholic?
What happened in your past to turn your soul to sludge?
You are in my prayers.
If you would like the controversy which your hateful anti-Catholic bigotry has initiated to go away immediately, all you have to do is recant your pledge to desecrate the Eucharist and apologize to the Catholics and others whom you have offended.
Hopefully you are man enough to do that. You’re in my prayers, Paul, for you must truly be a broken vessel. I am very sorry for you, and for the distraction from your academic career which your unfortunate vitriol has visited upon you.
Just because you do not appreciate the Eucharist, is no reason to assault what is so precious to me.
The Eucharist is not a “thing” , but a PERSON….Jesus Christ,.. who is truly present in that form of Bread.
Even though you don’t have the faith to believe it doesn’t take away the fact.
I don’t live in your house,….but that doesn’t give me the right to spray-paint your house.
Why are you so offended for the student???
Isn’t it REALLY your own pride and anger with God that you are not the man you are supposed to be???
Do you resent the fact that God lives whether or not you “allow” Him to?
The Eucharist is the MOST PRECIOUS POSSESSION EVER to HAVE. It is my MOST PRECIOUS
POSSESSION–and to desecrate Him is to mutilate me.
I understand how when people don’t understand something, they are scared of it. I’ve made that connection with you and the Holy Eucharist.
I’m disappointed that you would, as a respected professor, make hateful remarks that offend not only Catholics, but all people who hold thier sacred tradition and beliefs close to thier heart.
I’m disappointed with your actions, but I pray that one day your heart will be opened. You are free to believe anything that you would like…a joy of living in the United States, even if it’s that you believe the Eucharist is a frickin cracker, but your proposed hate acts against that “cracker” are a bit extreme in behavior.
I DONT SPEAK FOR ALL CATHOLICS BUT MOST OF US HAVE HAD SOME GREAT EDUCATIONS FROM GRADE SCHOOL TO GRADUATE LEVEL.
WERE EVEN RANKED SECOND BEHIND THE JEWISH COMMUNITY. WE RESPECT BILL THATS WHY HE SPEAKS FOR MOST OF US AND WE APPRECIATE IT. WE SEE IN YOUR COMMENTS THAT WE NEED THE BILL’S OF THIS WORLD TO FIGHT FOR US EVEN THOUGH WE CAN DO APPOLOGETICS FOR OURSELVES.
WE RESPECT OTHERS AND WE EXPECT THE SAME FROM ANYONE ELSE. ITS EXPECTED OF MOST PEOPLE IF NOT ALL PEOPLE’S TO RESPECT OTHERS. ITS TO BAD THE
WORLD IS LOOSING THIS RESPECT.
ANYWAY WE EXPECT WHICH DOESNT ALWAYS HAPPEN THAT OTHERS RESPECT THAT TINY LITTLE WAFER
BECAUSE WE RESPECT OTHER PEOPLE TRADITIONS. IT PROBABLY COMES FROM THE STUDY OF ANTHROPOLOGY AND ARCHAEOLOGY THAT I SAY THIS. HMM I GUESS AS A CATHOLIC I REALLY CAN SPELL THESE
WORDS WITH INTELLIGENCE AND UN-
DERSTANDING. I GUESS IM NOT SOME
IGNORANT CATHOLIC WITH A SUPERSTITIOUS NATURE. WOW I WONDER WHERE THIS CAME FROM?
MUST BE COMPLETELY EVEOLUTION AND NOT REVELATION. PERSONALLY
IT IS REVELATION.
You just don’t have the backbone to attack the Muslims do you? A bit of a castrati are we? Coward
As a practicing Roman Catholic, I am socked to hear that you have threatened to desecrate the Holy Eucharist. I find this as shameful bigotry against the Catholic Church.
I respect all mainstream religion in out fine country. I hope you will start respecting mine. There is no room for this type of behavior in our country. I urge you think about what is causing you to act the way you are to sincerely apologize to all Roman Catholics.
You are very misguided. Why you would chose to attack others beliefs and show such hostility is beyond me to understand. You need to show a little control and self respect. Any how I will say a few rosaries for you and perhaps you will get well again. Best Regards
May you come to know the love of Jesus in the miracle of the Eucharist. All are welcome!
Mr. Myers…If you have a problem with religion why not rationally debate it, instead of attacking the most important part of our Catholic religion, the “sacred host, the Eucharist” which to us is the “Body & Blood of Jesus.” Please, persecution and hate will not address your complaints and disagreements. Let’s act civilly…God bless…By the way, when I first read about your diatribe, I thought of St. Paul. I do believe God can work miracles…I’ll be praying for you…Please pray for me…
Hey, professor… I dare you to show the same sacrilege with “equal fanfare” to the Muslim religion. Perhaps you can dunk a Koran in a jar of urine and post that on the web with some funny comments? Oh wait…. I guess your version of atheism doesn’t include hating a religion that would surely respond by threatening your life and limb huh? You pitiful, immature coward.
You just made this Catholic’s prayer list. You may make it to heaven yet brother. Peace.
I think you should do the right thing and apologize for your hateful remarks toward Catholics. I don’t know what brought about your hatred, but I guarantee you, it will never make you happy. Turn it around.
if your college wont fire you ill come out there and take care of the problem for them
If you’re looking for something to desecrate, why don’t you try a Quran? I’ll even buy it for you! It won’t cost you a thing! Think of the attention you’ll get! What? You won’t do that? Why? Oh! You’re a COWARD! C’mon paulie, put on some big boy pants, cowboy up, grow some balls and just do it. You pick on a true religion of peace and won’t do anything to upset followers of a pedophilic so-called “prophet”. Count your blessings that Catholics don’t behead people, ass hole.
I’ll pray that this hatred leaves you.
You’re a bigot and a hypocrite. Try insulting Muslim’s and then I’ll support your biased attack against Catholics.
Dear Professor Myers:
Or, should I say, “intellectual pygmy” masquerading as a professor?
I undersatnd you want a Eucharistic host to desecrate and insult my religion” ? Well, professor, I shall be happy to provide you with one in person. Please name the place and time.
Since you are brave behind your blog, threatening Bill O’ Donahue of the Catholic League saying you would be happy to kick him in the balls, why don’t you try that with this Catholic veteran? I will be in Minnesota for the Republican convention and would be pleased to deliver your special host to you.
I’m really looking forward to coming to Minneapolis in September. Hoping you take me up on my offer…
You sound like a terribly insecure little man. I am astonished that the University would even employ you. By the way, who gives a rats ass about zebrafish? You ought to do extensive research about how an idiot like you survives to adulthood?
Sir, if any of what we’ve learned is accurate, you should be ashamed of yourself.
You are just another example of what is wrong with our culture; freedom out of control.
idiot.
After reading several of your blog posts, I find that you compose them with all the grace and wit of a third-grader who has just learned some dirty words. I encourage you to continue your Don Quixote-like crusade against religion, for the venom you spew does more harm to your cause than anything else. How can a man who supposedly lauds “reason” waste his time insulting a God he doesn’t believe in? Thank you for keeping the stereotype of the angry, bitter atheist alive. Kudos.
I am not sure what would cause someone to act so hateful toward Catholics and our Lord Jesus Christ. Others are angry at you, but I am very sad. I feel so sorry for you. One does not have to believe in Jesus if they choose not to. No on will try and force you to believe in Jesus Christ nor that the Eucharistic host is His body, blood, soul, and divinity. So why is it that you must try and stir up problems? I cannot believe that it is because your life is so boring. You must have been hurt by someone and for that I am sorry. I will pray for your healing and that you will not feel such hate.
GET A REAL JOB!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you for your comment regarding the desecration of the Eucharist. I am sure Jesus has heard it and will respond accordingly. It may hurt a little, but don’t worry, we Catholics will pray that you’ll still live long enough to repent. If you don’t apologize, we Catholics won’t be able to see you from where we spend our eternity. You won’t have a lick of a chance.
Your comments to Bill Donohue were ridiculous, dangerous (for you) and really not worthy of comment. But – well – since I like Bill and I pray for you – well – maybe someone should comment!
A Professor????
At a university???!!!
What a shame!!!!!!!!
Are you so starved for attention that you must take other folks faith and ridicule it? I know I should respond by prayer for you, but right now I am just puzzled. What is your purpose? Like anti-Semitism, bigotry, prejudice, etc., it’s folks like you who need a watchdog like Donahue. I am glad he is there. I hope like the rest of your ilk, you will be “taught” how inflammatory your words are, since you seem to be oblivious to any other intelligent reasoning.
I will try not to say anything that will encourage you and your counterparts in attacking the Catholic Church or the faithful. I think it’s so sad that you are ignorant and intolerant of things other people hold dear to their hearts. Let me give you an example.
I live in Kansas. Lots of jokes about that – I can take it. It’s beautiful here and I have no desire to live anywhere else. From the west side of the state where the July air can be hot and dry during the day and cool and calm at night, to the east side of the state where the towns are bigger, there’s more vegetation, more “culture”, and more people than cows. I’ve stayed in New York City, Washington, DC, Atlanta, GA, etc. I lived for a short time in Ft. Worth, TX. People in New York City are great at making jokes about Kansas, but they’ve never been here to know how glorious the lifestyle is. Most of the people I know here in Kansas are well-traveled; we know what “the big city” is like – we’ve been there, done that. But how many people in the city can understand the simple joy of sitting on the porch and waving at neighbors as they take their evening walk or how much fun a 4th of July celebration is on the town square? I have relatives who live on the east coast and it took them a week to relax and enjoy life; they were so keyed up. Even in Wichita (the biggest city in Kansas), people know when wheat harvest is and pray for good weather for the farmers. We pull together and we pray together. Catholic or Protestant, we hope the best for each other.
You on the other hand, seem to be happiest when causing other people pain or consternation. Why? What has happened to you in your lifetime that you are so bitter you have to attack another’s beliefs? We probably don’t want to go there. It just makes me wonder and feel so sad.
Catholics have not asked you to give us anything, so just let us be! Isn’t that what the United States is all about? If you don’t like it, maybe you should live somewhere else.
I just want you to know that I and my family will be praying for you. God bless you.
You could use a little more tact and manners in your current PR debacle.
Your first amendment rights do not insulate you from looking foolish.
Don’t like what you are hearing? Look in a mirror or videotape yourself before you go in public.
Catholics do not hate you ,but you are courting their indignation by your stupidity as your proposed
anti catholic sacrilege.
I see you love getting attention. Were you deprived of it as a child? Do you think your family would be proud of your puerile , offensive behaviour?
Is that how they raised you? You owe Catholics and indeed, all decent minded human beings an apology for your ignorant comments and antics.What this all boils down to in the end is that you are just a silly old man clamouring for public attention.
My hope is that, aside from mockery, you shall be deprived of it.
You are a monster. We need another Inquisition to root out idiots like you (and anyway, the Church only excommunicated heretics and witches, then handed them over to the state for punishment. We never executed them directly). How dare you insult the Lord God like that. Losers like you will suffer. I hope and pray that this will loose you your job and your career.
What have we Catholics done to you? Why do wish to desecrate the Eucharist? You probably know that we believe that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. To desecrate it would be the vilest act you could ever commit against us. Please respect our religion as we respect yours and everybody’s.
Myers, your opinion of God will be your undoing. There are more than 5 Billion people on this planet that belives God has given you and all others the capability to move civilization forward in His Name.
I can’t help feeling sorry for you, to desacrate God, Creator of the World will be delt with in His time.
Please do NOT desecrate the Eucharist in any way. Please, I beg you to NOT damage what is So PRECIOUS to me.
It is usually disillusion with unrelated issues that causes people to strike out. But that is exactly what Jesus came to address,..
and to offer healing and purpose.
If you only KNEW….
I will pray for you and for whatever healing of lost dreams you may be enduring.
I understand that you accept, on Faith, the unproven Theory of Evolution. I
haven’t made up my mind about it yet, as we haven’t quite found those pesky
“missing links”–I like to keep an open mind about all theories until one is
proven beyond all doubt. However, after reading your illogical and puerile
rants against Catholics recently, I’ve come to the conclusion that you must
be partially right about evolution. I don’t know about the rest of us
folks, but you are most certainly just a few swings away from being a
monkey.
Since you mentioned fatwa, I bet you don’t have the balls to descreat a Koran. They are a people of the Book also. Go ahead, I dare you.
You shouldn’t open your mouth and trash our beliefs. And if you have balls, go after the Muslim….or I forgot you scare. You are a very smart individual, build something with it, but don’t pull everyone down with you.
I believe the consecrated host is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ. I don’t care whether you believe it or not. In this country we have freedom of religion. I don’t approve of anyone taking my religion away from me.
If this is not the Paul Myers who is making news today for planning to desecrate The Eucharist, forgive me.
If it is, may God forgive you.
Only the general contempt for Catholics in this culture allows you to call it a cracker. It is in fact the body of Christ.
Would you degrade something Jewish? How about something representing the nation of Islam? Many web sites are alerting people like me to contact your employer to decry your blasphemy, and I just did.
Perhaps atheists like you are praying you have tenure…if not, I would be looking in the Chronicle for a new piece of chalk.
I am writing to express my concerns about Professor Myers announcement of his intentions to desecrate the Eucharist. Such a remark is not consistent with the cultural competency that an institution of higher learning should represent. As a psychologist, I am quite familiar with University of Minnesota’s academic reputation. Please take steps to defend the integrity of your institution by appropriately disciplining such bigoted, hateful, and culturally insensitive remarks. Fortunately, the Catholic religion teaches the virtues of peace, tolerance, and charity. Such threats against some other religions would be met with force, which is why I think it not a stretch to assume that Catholicism is subject to such cowardly attacks.
Why are your people so fowl towards Catholics?
Sir?; Shame on you! May God forgive you and I will pray for you. You should seek help soon
Does it make you nervous knowing that so many people are praying for you? You might just get converted!!
Why don’t you stick to your professional credentials and expound on something you know about and want to know about. Leave the rest of us alone.
We haven’t done you any harm in following our religion as Catholics. I don’t get the beef. Furthermore, you are a “public servant” paid by the taxpayers of Minnesota.
Your unprofessional and disrespectful attitude toward Catholics and the Catholic Faith looks really bad and the taxpayers have got to be wondering why are we paying this guy?
As a matter of fact I am wondering that very same thing about 90% of the professors in the United States who seem to have become experts on everything except what they are supposed to teach.
So please, BUG OFF.
thought you professors were all liberal, feel good about yourself and let others do what they want types. How come you are the total opposite? Talk about disrespectful, non liberal, non productive, divisive speech and thoughts. You should be ashamed.
In this world where everybody works for inclusion, you distance yourself and disrespect millions of people who, as Catholics respect the Host as THE Body and Blood of Christ ?
How dare you!
I am sponsoring efforts to get you fired for your comments on the CATHOLIC EUCHARIST – free speech has nothing to do with your idiotic & disrespectful comments – Now just go pick on the Muslims – or are you too afraid – you must be – you assinine PHD – too afraid to affront a religious belief that would terminate you. God Bless
DO YOU HAVE THE GUTS TO DO SOMETHING SIMILAR REGARDING THE MUSLIM RELIGION?
I DOUBT YOU DO, YOU KNOW THEY WOULD LOP YOUR HEAD OFF !
ATTACKING CHRISTIANS, ESPECIALLY CATHOLICS IS EASY FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU !
Don’t you have anything better to do with your life? I would be interested to know what religion you were raised. If a person has a happy and fruitful life they don’t go out of there way to degrade anothers religion. – – God Bless America and you. – –
You want to desecrate my Lord & Savior?
Well, I’m going to say a prayer for you because, I know
you do not know what you are doing.
Sham on you……..
Snap out of it…..
I feel compelled to write you to express the offense and hurt I feel as a Catholic for your apparent disregard and callous for what I and other Catholics hold most dear — the sacrament of communion. I have no idea what motivates your hatred and scorn for the Church and her beliefs.
I can only hope and pray that whatever your issues are, some resolution can be found which dissipates the tension and prevents more words and possible actions which are offensive to many sincere believers, and, as one who has spent an hour each day in a Catholic church or chapel in prayer for the past 35 years feels confident to say, to the Lord himself.
I don’t really know who you are other than you don’t like Catholics or Jesus Christ. That is your right in a free society.
But I would like to ask you not to desecrate the Holy Eucharist. We Catholics know it is the body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord Jesus. Your threats to desecrate Jesus is extremely hurtful to us. Advancing a free, good, and charitable society comes from respecting others not mocking their belief and desecration what others hold dear.
Hello Bad Boy Myers,
You need help, what do you want? Jesus (only son of God) gave his young life to save every one, even you!
God the father is sad that you Mr.. Myers have sided with Hate.
As a good Catholic Man I must Pray for you Mr. Myers, who hates Christianity.
Hells gates are wide open for hateful people Mr. Myers.
Hope to meet you in Heaven Mr. Myers.
I find it hard to believe that there is such anti Catholic and anti God hatered being spued by anybody let alone supposedly ‘educated’ people. I will work to let as many people as possible know there are still people like you taking advantage of the freedom America offers. Eventually people like you get their just deserve. I hope you get yours sooner than later.
If you really think the Blessed Eucharist is just a “farckin’ cracker” then I challenge you to do a little scientific research…
beginning here -> http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/engl_mir.htm
Check especially this sight here, -> http://www.acfp2000.com/Miracles/eucharistic.html
if you have the balls and intellectual integrity to stand up to what you’ll find.In short Mr. Myers what you’ll find, if you are honest with yourself, is that you’re wrong. It’s not just a “frackin’ cracker”. It’s Him who made you.
You really need to get your head around what that means. In the mean time I’ll pray for you.
I was outraged to learn of your call to desecrate a Communion host. Why such hatred against the Catholic Church?
Would you do the same against the Koran and the Islamic faith or the sacred Torah and the Jews? I
Please do not offend Our Lord. I am praying for you.
You’re nothing more than a poor, pathetic little coward. You rant that you’re going to desecrate the Communion Host knowing full well that the worst that you’ll suffer are a few denunciatory editorials and maybe a censure or two. Oh! The horror of it all!! Do you want to demonstrate REAL courage by desecrating a religious symbol? Make an image of Mohamed (one serious affront to Islam) then desecrate it (another even more serious affront to the “religion of peace”). Of course, that would expose your person to actual, corporeal danger. What’s the matter? Don’t you have the stomach for real confrontation? You’re pathetic.
Bill Donohue defends the Catholic Faith and does a wonderful job of it. When he sees disrespect or irreverence, especially in the extreme, he takes action.
Your threat to desecrate a consecrated Host is a most vicious and hateful action for which you know in your heart you need to apologize.
Please retract your threat of sacrilege and apologize to those you have offended. Most of all, please apologize to your God and Creator for your blasphemy. He doesn’t deserve it.
Dear Little Paul,
It appears that you are a naughty little man and have been doing things you shouldn’t be doing! Shame on you!
Once you get your unique proclivities for sin under control, you will certainly have a greater appreciation for your own existence. Surely, your current brazen boast and desire to desecrate the Eucharist, stems from some unresolved childhood trauma. There are ways to find peace and forgiveness. They, that hurt you, do not represent the Loving Father in Heaven. Clearly, your hatred flows from inside and is affecting your very dignity as a human being.
You have been made in the Image and Likeness of God. The angry feelings you have cannot diminish this Truth. He created you for greatness and gave you intelligence. I challenge you to take that intelligence and go searching for the existence of God.
In the mean time, I adjure you to a life with honor and be a man that young people can admire, instead of an embittered curmudgeon, whining about how terrible things have been for you.
I will pray for you.
You are a very little man. I will pray for you.
I was wondering why you would want to do something that would be so painful to so many people. Anyway, whatever the reason, I will remember you in my prayers so that whatever it is that causes you so much hatred can be reconciled in yourself, before you hurt yourself as well as others.
You need to repent and give your life to God. You just may find yourself in “Hell” for what you have done to God’s church when you die.
I am a deacon in the Anglican Church. I want to voice my concern and disapproval of Professor Myers’ comments regarding his intentions toward the Holy Eucharist. I can only imagine the discomfort that this will cause his students who profess the Christian faith.
As a publicly supported university, the University of Minnesota Morris is to provide a safe learning environment for all of its students. While there needs to be a spirit of academic inquiry and freedom in this institution of higher learning, Professor Myers’ comments hold no academic value although they do create a hostile learning environment for Christian students. I can only imagine the turmoil I would face if I were a biology student at your institution and had to study under a professor who set out to make a mockery of my faith in such a manner. While I respect one’s freedom of speech, as a professor at your institution, Professor Myers has a responsibility to consider the impact of his words and actions on his students. I agree with others that what Professor Myers is involved in is nothing less than a form of hate speech.
I trust that you will take the concerns of the Christian community into consideration as you consider your response to this matter. Thank you for your consideration.
I want to thank you for reminding me how wonderful it is to be Catholic. Your anger toward the Eucharist makes clear to me how powerful It must be. I promise to pray for you when I receive Him tomorrow at Mass. I promise to become a better Catholic in response to your promise of desecration.
May God give peace to you!
If you want to have anti Catholic views, fine. do so on your own time.
I am emailing you to pray for you and that God may reveal to you His mysterious love and mercy.
Jesus, I Trust in You. Jesus, we trust in You. Jesus, in the most holy sacrament, have mercy on us. God the Father, for the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world. Eternal Father, we offer you the body, blood, soul, and divinity of your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world. Our Father, who art in heaven, hallow be Thy Name, Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, give us this day our Daily Bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. Amen. Hail Mary, full of grace the Lord is with thee, blessed are thou among woman and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, Jesus, holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen. All Glory be to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning is now and ever will be, world without end. Amen.
Fatwa? Is this the go-to accusation of those who believe Catholics are credulous, cracker-munching provincials? Your response to Bill Donahue was puerile bravado and begs the original question: why would an educator choose to denigrate the sacred belief of others irrespective of his own convictions? The vitriol you spewed regarding the student who came under scrutiny evinced a total ignorance of Catholic teaching and, worse, a reductionist mentality that conflates religious faith with irrationality. You are a prisoner, sir, of your strictured understanding. My condolences.
I do not appreciate you bigoted and religious intolerance of any faith or credible believe, especially the Catholic Faith. Your intent to obtain and desecrate a host is at least unbecoming of a University professor. A professor is supposed to show tolerance and respect for other viewpoints, let along a long standing and respected religion as the Catholic faith.
You indeed show your self to be a miscreant of society and certainly do not deserve to be teaching anything anywhere as far as I and millions of Americans are concerned.
Where did you learn this trash of hate from anyway?
May God have Mercy on your soul.
You won’t get any threats from me, unless it is to see that you loose your job you do not deserve.
Are you in love with yourself. Satan has tried for over 2000 years to destroy us (Catholic Church) and has failed miserably. You will, too. Saint Michael defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him. Mary, Mother of God, protect your Church from those that wish us harm.
Hey, fella, we’re praying for you.
Your problems obviously run deep. It’s all very sad, but there’s only so much anyone can do to help you.
being that you are clearly an egotistical little man and I am loathe to give it to you but I still am compelled to say, it is not a “fricken cracker” to millions of Roman Catholics nor is it to me “Professor”.
If you are so brave, why don’t you steal a prayer rug from a local mosque and defile that?
Of course you wouldn’t dare do that because you haven’t any balls and the islamists would REALLY killyou, unlike Catholics…..You are nothing more than a typical liberal jerk from Minnesota…Your head is like the state you live in, full of holes.
You should be checked out by a very good psychiatrist. Your mind is indeed in trouble. You now have had your 15 minutes of fame. What next? You should be praying for your life.
Please respect people who believe with their heart and soul, of the transubstatiaton miracle at our Holy Mass each day of the week, the real presence of our Creator is being received by all of us who are baptized in the Apostolic Catholic Church, we believe in God the Father almighty and all the saints. We ask for the conversion of souls, and pray for you. Thank you.
I love America. It is the only country in the world where the intellectually inferior and sublimely mediocre can get an advanced degree. You prove the theory that it is possible to be educated beyond one’s intelligence.
Have a nice angry day!
You are really fucked now. Lock your doors at night, and check under your car before you turn the ignition key.
I would pray for you, but it is too late. You are damned.
I dare you to broadcast to the world your intention to show some real contempt for religion by wiping your backside with a picture of Mohammed and some pages from the Koran. You’ll get the world- wide fatwa you are whining about and the front page of every newspaper would have a picture of your decapitated body for all to see. Or do you only have the “courage” to insult those who you know would never hurt you (nasty emails notwithstanding) no matter how vile you are. For the record, I’m not a Catholic.
Jesus will always forgive your vileness; Mohammed will cut your stupid head off. Got guts or are you just another phony anti-Christian warrior ?
I am writing this to express my deep outrage and sorrow for your recent call for desecration of the Eucharist and the offer to post examples of this abuse on your website. This is truly a deep wound to our Lord, Jesus Christ who we believe is truly present in the Eucharist, as well as a very hateful act toward our Catholic faith. You would not dream to express such hatred toward Islam or any other religion, so why are you concentrating on mine? I am sure this does not agree with university policy or mission! I respectfully ask that you apologize for your hateful remarks and refrain from making more in the future. Perhaps if you educated yourself on the Catholic faith, you would understand better what a gift the Eucharist truly is, and I would challenge you to do so as a man who values education. I will pray that you develop more tolerance and understanding, and less hate and vindictiveness.
Xeno: “I stated pretty clearly my question, in relation to the assumption you initially seemed to agree with – that many christians and catholics in fact do NOT agree with you.”
Already answered. Almost all Christians do not understand the history of transubstantiation (TRANSUB) which is why they don’t believe it now. Most of them are not aware of facts (1) to (6), they think either (A) TRANSUB was invented in the 8th or 9th century (as falsely stated twice in these blog comments), or (B) was invented at the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215. They don’t understand the development of doctrine, and the unanimous teaching of the Church Fathers on the subject, both Real Presence and sacrifice of the Mass.
Xeno: “That is, you’re not actually leaving any room – as I had assumed – for alternative truth, instead categorically judging the whole of christianity (and indirectly all other religions)?”
I am only judging one doctrine (Eucharist, the subject of this blog) among all the Christian denominations. We haven’t discussed Baptism yet (another doctrine that “divides” Christians). Hint: Baptismal regeneration was more unanimous than the Eucharist and the historical sources (even hostile anti-Catholic ones) agree with this point. I am not talking about Islam vs. Christianity, or any other religion at this time.
Next.
negen: “I’m still confused as to what you are trying to achieve here, can you be specific ?”
Yeah, answer historically the objections to transubstantiation. Done. Also post as much as I can as fast as I can in a short time while P.Z. is still asleep.
negen: “Are you trying to convince us that we should become Catholics ?”
Yes, that is the long term goal. The short term goal is to prove to all the atheist dumbshits who think TRANSUB was invented in the 8th, 9th, or 13th century, that the doctrine of “Real Presence” and “sacrifice of the Mass” was believed historically for at least 1000 years.
Today transubstantiation, tomorrow the world! It’s a long haul: (A) God exists, (B) Jesus exists, (C) miracles are possible, (D) Jesus claimed to be God, (E) Jesus rose from the dead, (F) Jesus established the Catholic Church to teach the truth on faith and morals (not science BTW, but faith and morals).
negen: “Phil Vaz, why do you belittle your faith so much ? What are you worried about ? According to a revelation received by Paul, this is the instruction Jesus is supposed to have given to his disciples….”
Sorry it’s a little more detailed than that. St. Paul wrote a bit more than that (1 Cor 11:27,29; 10:16-21). I suggest you look into John 6:51ff, the background of the Greek “Do this” and -anamnesis- and this article:
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num8.htm
Phil P
The people defending their faith? Defending their many-million member faith, which is headed by the all-powerful but seemingly helpless creator of the universe… by issuing death threats against a kid who didn’t eat his magic cookie, and by trying to get fire a guy who said mean, mean things about their death threats and magic cookie on his blog.
Man, I feel so sorry for the all-powerful creator of the universe and his millions of followers. The trauma they must have endured.
“I got as far as “muzzies”.
What the hell are muzzies?”
It is a term used by stupid people to refer to muslims. Often the same people will refer to arabs as ragheads or towelheads. Their sense of geography tends be screwed so quite often they will call use the raghead when talking about Iranians.
Kenny! Hi! See you got that weekend pass from the home. Don’t forget to take your meds just because the nurse is not around to hand them to you.
Pax Nabisco
Well Phil, you’ve convinced me for one.
I now fully see the logic in the claims that some guy in a robe saying words over a cracker magically turns it into the flesh of a 2000-year-dead human who was actually the son of a god who was actually he himself, that he impregnated a virgin with his son who was actually himself so that his son/his self could be murdered so that he could then rise from the dead to forgive those who he had arranged to murder him for murdering him.
Thanks for clearing that up. And for a moment, I thought the whole thing was just insane mumbo jumbo.
Today transubstantiation, tomorrow the world! It’s a long haul: (A) God exists, (B) Jesus exists, (C) miracles are possible, (D) Jesus claimed to be God, (E) Jesus rose from the dead, (F) Jesus established the Catholic Church to teach the truth on faith and morals (not science BTW, but faith and morals).
You have a far, far longer haul than that.
You first have to establish that the supernaturalism is even a viable concept. They have you have to establish that supernaturalism can be demonstrated (something I consider impossible). Then you have to show how minds (which we only know of in the context of biology) can have a non-materialistic foundation… and I have barely got started.
Also, even if you demonstrate all of your points, you haven’t even begun to deal with the issue of how we are supposed to recognise the truth that Jesus preached.
All religion, no matter how sophisticated it may seem, no matter what the theologists say, comes down to trusting gut feelings and words in old books. All theology does is to try and make excuses for that. It does not even start to come close to showing that it is true.
#997
Take religion or leave religion, it’s a simple choice.
No, it isn’t. I am gay. Religion won’t “take or leave” me. It works hard all the time to undermine my rights and condemn me.
Phil @ #1002
“Almost all Christians do not understand the history of transubstantiation (TRANSUB) which is why they don’t believe it now.”
I think it would be fair to call this statement so close-minded it actually connects your anterior to your posterior.
To be clear about what I mean, I know a great many christians. Most of them do not follow any denomination to the letter. Quite a few hold very vague, “god is in everything”-views. They still call themselves christians and see no problem with that.
I doubt that any of them would be swayed by your assertion.
Do you think that maybe the answer to why y’all don’t believe the same thing is not so much different teachings, as the problem of trying to instil “one true interpretation” from something that.. isn’t true?
“We haven’t discussed Baptism yet (another doctrine that “divides” Christians).”
Let’s not.
“Yes, that [converting everyone to catholicism] is the long term goal.”
You know, it’s so much easier to sympathise with non-protelyzing religions.
I’ve taken to just skimming these cracker threads for PZ’s own comments. There just aren’t enough hours in the day.
So I have to ask: PZ, are you actually reading all these comments? If so, you are a true champion.
To add to what Steve Zara has said, the Catholic church is one of the worst offenders when it comes to discriminating against gay people. The church actively opposes allowing gays the right to marry or adopt. Somehow though they do not consider that to be bigotry.
AmI: “Hey Phil Vaz, read this….”
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/central.html
AmI: “Yeah I know it’s geocities. Ignore that part and just read it.”
I’ll read the site, and raise it by five books:
Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Kreeft / Tacelli
The Historical Reliability of the Gospels (new edition, 2007) by Craig Blomberg
Reasonable Faith (new edition, 2008) by William Lane Craig
Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony by Richard Bauckham (Eerdmans, 2006)
The Jesus Legend: A Case for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Tradition (Baker, 2007) by Eddy / Boyd
And another one: The Resurrection of the Son of God by N.T. Wright (only 800 pages)
Have fun! (I guess it depends on which arguments you want to believe are the better arguments, a web site by itself is not gonna do it).
I think Dom John Chapman utterly demolishes that Geocities site on the primacy of Peter:
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num16.htm
Chapman was Anglican but became Catholic when he was 25. He was one of the greatest patristic scholars of the late 19th, early 20th century and authored many of the articles in the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia (that is online).
Phil P
Steve makes a good point at #1008 that’s also been one of those things that bothers me about – in this case – the moderators, the people who seem to pop up in every debate stating that “both sides have their merits” and “let’s not fight, have ice-cream instead”, while neglecting to observe that people act according to their beliefs.
It’s not like these beliefs exist in some static internal world where they don’t affect anyone outside the believer.
What’s happened here with the cracker alone should show this. But much more importantly, the political agenda driven on by (among other things) religious zealotry to oppress others, is not something you can sweep under the rug with a blanket statement about “merits”.
I still haven’t heard anyone discussing the merits of the Catholic church’s official policy of hiding and protecting from prosecution the child-raping members of its staff.
Phil Vaz,
I think you should read your own bible !
Another instruction given by Jesus which is very clear, if we are supposed to believe in the historical authenticity of this text, if you are unworthy, do not eat this bread. So, what are you worried about if a non believer destroys it ?
“Christians who believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.”
Christ in a cracker?
I dare anyone to say this several times and NOT LAUGH YOUR ASS OFF.
I am outraged that no one – NOT ONE SINGLE SINNING FORNICATING PERSON – had addressed the MOST IMPORTANT POINT. This is the point: the crackers are NOT the “body of Christ.”
I proved long ago, in a fourteen volume work of genius called “Don’t ralph Ralph” that the crackers, when blessed, turn into the body of an auto mechanic from Yonkers named Ralph (last name unknown).
I don’t know about anyone else, but I think PZ and all of the rest of you WILL ROT IN YONKERS FOR WEEKS AND WEEKS for your disrespect of Ralph’s body.
OK, Ralph’s body was nothing to be proud of, but please focus. Even if Ralph’s pot belly and hairy back were the source of endless amusement when he went to the beach. That’s not the point.
You don’t walk out of the church with Ralph in your mouth.
Wow… that IS tiring.
Did you read all of these?
I agree with that one: “I love America. It is the only country in the world where the intellectually inferior and sublimely mediocre can get an advanced degree.”
Oh wait… they didn’t mean Catholics, did they?
craig: “Well Phil, you’ve convinced me for one.”
Here let me re-word your paragraph to at least make it sound more convincing, and something I would say:
I now fully see the logic in the priesthood of the Catholic Church, passed on for 2000 years from Jesus Christ and His holy apostles, when an ordained priest says the words of consecration over the bread and wine, which words were passed on from Jesus Christ, through his apostles, through the unanimous teaching of the Church Fathers and Saints, sacramentally turns the Eucharist elements into the flesh and blood (“he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in Me” and “This is my body…this is my blood…”) of the resurrected and ascended Jesus Christ, the Son of God, born of the Virgin Mary, one in being with the Father, the Creator Almighty, and that the sacrifice he offered for the sins of the world could forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. Amen.
Much better!
craig: “Thanks for clearing that up.”
Not a problem! Join your local R.C.I.A. program at the Catholic parish in your city.
Phil P
not something you can sweep under the rug with a blanket statement about “merits”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_ground
also known as “the fallacy of the golden mean”.
I’m sure you will likely find almost ALL of the fallacies listed on the following page being utilized by the religious apologists in recent threads:
http://kspope.com/fallacies/fallacies.php
The reality then will be spiritual. It is time you expand your human closed mind and read up on the topic…consider the Bible as a starting point.
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah
People in this country think Scientology is utterly crazy, and they’re right. It’s insane. An alien from Venus does not live inside your head.
Yet these very same people belong to a religion whose central teaching is that Jesus turns himself into a biscuit.
Gosh Phil, you wrecked it.
The way I said it, it sounded so simple, plausible and sane.
You went and threw alla those extra words in there and now its back to looking like astoundingly insane bullshit that only a severely deluded mental case would ever believe.
You have dashed my faith in the Father, Son, and the Holy Cookie.
Ichthyic – thanks!
I love that taking the plunge in threads like these usually yields some nuggets. Logical fallacies are tough to avoid. Especially when they often easily help your rhetoric (as long as you don’t get called on it). ;)
At least Jenn admits that her god is a murderous monster. Does explain the terror she and so many of the other fuckwits live in. Imagine, being killed for having sex; what a loving caring repugnant beast she loves. Speaks highly of her.
That and the “rain forest PC jungle” idiocy speaks highly of her intelligence.
phil said:
Unfortunately Phil, the road you are taking for your “long haul” is shaped like a donut.
Hope that’s not to sciencey for you.
Here let me re-word your paragraph to at least make it sound more convincing, and something I would say:
somehow, I just don’t think Phil is getting the point. Not surprising though, since apparently his goal is to try and convince us not to become catholics, but rather that he is good at apologetics and to visit his site.
sadly, he is not good at apologetics, though he might think so based on the lack of competition in these threads from supposed actual catholics.
It seems the only challenges he is getting are from atheists who know as much about apologetics (or more) than he does.
what this tells me is that Phil is literally wasting his time in apologetics.
the people who claim to be catholic simply don’t care, because they already think they know all they need to, and the atheists don’t care, because they readily see through apologetics to begin with. That’s why they are atheists.
seriously, Phil. I do hope this is just a hobby for you.
I’m pretty sure “Jenn” admitted to being a troll, probably Kenny.
Kenny was apparently using many of his personalities tonight.
I agree with Paul. The Bible is an excellent starting point. Everyone should read it.
Afterall, it’s what made me an atheist. I’m like Penn and Teller on this, read it! We need more atheists!
Mr. P:
Any way you put it it’s still just a fantasy. Good job on the translation though.
I just hope the Washington Times uses an appropriate image.
So, ichthyic shorter Phil:
blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah
Kenny was apparently
using many of his personalities[off his meds again] tonight.PZ is really going to have to seriously consider a limited form of registration to block the likes of undead Kenny.
if it’s just a cracker, then rise above it and give it back. they’re not harming anyone with their silly cracker games so let them get on with it and stop tormenting people.
a 5 year old doesn’t really get any added security from carrying a blanket round but you wouldn’t steel that from him for any reason would you?
the guy should be a bigger man and stop upsetting people. he’s giving atheists a rep for bullying.
Actually I don’t know jack shit about apologetics.
I don’t know a huge amount about most religions either, I stopped listening when Christianity was explained to me when I was 4 years old and I immediately recognized it as being fairy tales.
I don’t think you have to be very well educated (my formal education ended around 8th grade) to have a decent bullshit detector.
So, ichthyic shorter Phil:
yes, but with sprinkles on top.
which guy, scott?
No one has a cracker except the catholics–and their supply companies. Did you not read any of the background materials, or are you just trolling for the sake of it?
Xeno: “Most of them do not follow any denomination to the letter. Quite a few hold very vague, ‘god is in everything’-views. They still call themselves christians and see no problem with that.”
If so, then they need to read the Creeds, they need to understand the classic Christian creeds, and they need to understand a little Christian history (the Fathers, the Councils, etc). I definitely wouldn’t start explaining “transubstantiation” to these kinds of people, we need to start with God and the Trinity then. Christianity is not a “make it up as I go along” kind of religion. If God is in everything, that is a pantheistic belief. Historically, Christianity is not pantheism.
To call yourself a “Christian” we need to have some standard of belief. Who is Jesus, and who is God, for example. That is what the classic Creeds are for. The Bible alone is not enough since it doesn’t define what a “Christian” is to believe, nor is it enough what any individual thinks of “Christianity.” Virtually all Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants would agree on this: we need to go back to the Christian Creeds. These define the “essentials” of Christianity. And forget transubstantiation and eucharist for the moment, is what I would say to your “pantheist” Christians.
Phil P
Citizen Z, that is an awesome picture. I’m *so* stealing it.
And forget transubstantiation and eucharist for the moment, is what I would say to your “pantheist” Christians.
And they should care why?
Even the bloody creeds are made up.
more blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Dr. Myers:
We stand in support of you!
“if it’s just a cracker, then rise above it and give it back. they’re not harming anyone with their silly cracker games so let them get on with it and stop tormenting people.”
Scott, try reading. If you had bothered to do that you would have found out that Cook has indeed handed back the wafer.
Why did you have to try and pretend he hadn’t ?
Why did you have to try and pretend he hadn’t ?
concern trolling….or just plain ol’ trolling.
Pay attention, Scott. PZ didnt actually steal anybody’s cookie.
And yes, they ARE harming people with their cracker games. They are harming the kid they threatened to kill, and who Catholic officials tried to get tossed out of school.
They are trying to harm PZ by getting him fired for expressing his opinion.
They are harming us all by going on TV and issuing press releases stridently asserting that NOBODY is allowed to criticize their wacko beliefs… that while they can criticize everyone else in their sermons every week, NOBODY is allowed to criticize them.
They are hurting everyone but LITERALLY putting forth the notion that “nothing is more vile than threatening to desecrate” their cookie.
Nothing. Not murder, not their death threats against others, not their priests who rape kids, not their official church policy of hiding and protecting their child rapists… none of that is as vile as threatening to desecrate their cookie.
They are harming MANY. And they have killed many in the past.
Scott @ #1034
“if it’s just a cracker, then rise above it and give it back.”
The original cracker is already returned. This was mentioned in the very first post concerning this.
“they’re not harming anyone with their silly cracker games so let them get on with it and stop tormenting people.”
On the other hand, they are threatening to harm people possibly interfering with their silly cracker games.
“the guy should be a bigger man and stop upsetting people. he’s giving atheists a rep for bullying. “
You really haven’t read anything relevant to this whole discussion, have you?
Phil @ #1038
I think you are missing my point time and time again. Or, you just have a pin-hole vision of the world that boggles my mind.
“To call yourself a “Christian” we need to have some standard of belief. “
You are dangerously close to the whole “No True Scotsman”-deal. The fact of the matter is that these people consider themselves christian, are considered by others to be christian, and would likely not be swayed by your arguments.
The pantheism is mixed up with the trinity and other select ingredients until their own view of what’s real emerges.
For you to say that they are wrong..? Wasn’t the whole thing started from individuals contact with god? And the idea is that while that may be, *these* people don’t know what they’re talking about?
What individuals such as us and PZ find so annoying about this sort of thing is how these people can so blatantly ignore the real meaning of what it is they are saying? If their exact words or actions were spoken or carried out or mirrored in some other context where the names and such were switched, these people would laugh at them and call them insane, but when they are discussed or carried out in the christian context they become sane and absolute truth.
The eucharist is compared to some one’s flesh and we are asked to eat it.
If this were asked of you in some other context would you not be taken back either in disbelief or concern with the people who asked it?
So if someone were to be holding a cracker in his hand and say this is my flesh, eat it! That I should not be surprised or think this person insane? Wouldn’t you call the cops just in case this guy isn’t some sort of cannibal?
What gives???
Yet these people think this ‘ritual’ is above reproach? It should not be questioned?
Why would some one ask us to eat his body and drink his blood to begin with??????
This is one of the foundations of this nation’s majority faith? Eating someone’s flesh and drinking their blood?
Is this not literally INSANE????
Yeah – JUNGLES. That was the manly name before we had to feminize everything according to political correctness and call them “rain forests.” – Jenn
Priceless. If you’re a poe, Jenn, you’re a bloody good one. If not – ever heard of dry tropical forests? And can you really think people who live in jungles don’t live in societies? I mean really?
Ludricous. I am not for offending anyone’s belief, but when they react in such an outrageous way it just pisses me off. Amazing how the tribal beliefs of some aggressive, paranoid little desert clan has passed on to this day and age.
“Praise the Lord, Pass the Ammunition…”
I look forward to your molesting some fracking crackers…
I’m sure Mendel wouldn’t mind. It might even be considered appopriate.
Phil Vaz,
don’t you see that actually reading the Bible carefully is one of the things that convinces many of us to give up on these kinds of ridiculous antique goatherders beliefs ?
It’s so full of logical contradictions, inconsistencies, gross historical errors, that it’s impossible to read this and think back, how can people still believe in this ?
Just take this one single verse for example, the one we are talking about :
So, what are we supposed to believe here ? If it were really his body, why are we supposed to eat it in remembrance of him ? Does this sound at all logical ? If it were only a symbol of his body, then yes, we eat it in remembrance of him, but if it were really his body, he wouldn’t have said eat it in remembrance of me, he would have said, do this so that I’m always with you, or something like that.
The problem is that the whole bible is like that, nothing makes sense, it’s been writen for people who have absolutely not an once of critical reasoning, and then theologians who try to wiggle their way through this and spend centuries trying to derive all kinds of nebulous doctrines, and you think that you are going to impress us with this ?
Yes, MYOB it is literally insane.
Which is why they flip their empty lids when someone points it out.
Pointing out that the emperor has no clothes, they can do nothing but screech like banshees and attack the messenger.
And this is what those who aren’t religious but don’t like these events don’t get.
This screeching, these ineffectual attempts to get PZ fired, these fruitless attempts to “shame” us into shutting up are simply evidence that ITS WORKING.
Their beliefs are indefensible, so of course they can’t defend them, they don’t even try. They just screech and try to claim that their beliefs must not be criticized.
We have found their weak spot, and they can’t do a damned thing… their beliefs are being exposed for the insanity that they are, and all of their protestations merely serve to underscore that point.
The screaming isn’t evidence that we’ve made a mistake, its evidence that we’re being successful.
Those who are posting that Phil says “blah” are correct.
Phil really has to start from first principles, which is proving supernaturalism a coherent concept. Until he has done that, and progressed through dozens of other stages of logical proof, he can’t say anything about God, the bible, Jesus…
Thanks for sharing these emails PZ… interesting to read what delusional people are writing.
I’ve noticed that and pointed it out a few times. The kid was SHARING HIS FAITH with a heathen friend and wanted to show him this important part of his faith.
Yet the clergy,et.al., massively over-reacted.
The kid filed an assult charge because they grabbed him.
So, the Church, like it always does when it’s wrong, instead of APPOLOGIZING, went on the offensive over the cracker the kid ended up not eating.
But beyond that, why do these Christians think God is fucking helpless, like some doddering old man? All they needed to do was let GOD PUNISH HIM. Right?
After all, God’s allegedly so fucking powerful that HE COULD EASILY TAKE CARE OF ANYONE WHO OFFENDED HIM and CLEARLY, if the tales are to be believed, DOESN’T NEED ANY HELP AT ALL!!!
Seriously, the guy can flood the world, bring the dead back to life, destroy both Sodom and Gomorrah, visit plagues upon entire nations, kill every first born son in a nation at will and can smite sinners with fire and brimstone.
What the hell kind of help does God need from a nun or some 70-year old priest? Or any of his mouth-breathing followers?
If anyone is showing “disrespect” it’s got to be the followers who automatically assume that God’s too weak to do anything about it… Of course, I think a lot of them, secretly, don’t believe and hold onto their faith as a shield from depression, angst and hopelessness while remaining in an infantile state… But that’s just my opinion, I can’t prove it.
“You do kind of get left with the impression that these Christians wish they had the guts to kill people and blow things up when faced with those who disagree with them.”
Oh they have the guts. Just wait till they pervert the foundations of American law further. They’ve already been blaming many of our problems on others for decades, be it religious groups in other lands, renegade governments, or smaller groups here like the GLBT community, Muslims, etc. Religious majorities know no boundaries when it comes to their own pet world view. Actions, especially violent ones initiated by strong arm government figures with a willing populace ready to eat up the next helping of law enforced upon others not like them, become a lot easier to justify when you’ve got 70-80% of the population. Mass delusion serves the ends of the worst in humanity, always for the supposed “right and good” reasons. The only “good” sign is that that 70-80% is comprised of multiple religious sects, and not just one.
And make no mistake: If and when they start doing away with whomever they deem unfit, they’ll feel themselves entirely above the common Muslim terrorist. But the only thing that will differentiate the two, realistically, is that one will be wearing a suit and tie, and the other will not be.
Now everyone, don’t mind Jenn. She has been trolling around the blogs looking to comment on all of the posts related to this matter. She hit me a couple of days ago, made no sense whatsoever, and refuses to leave me alone.
It’s like having your own, personal, pope.
She makes me sad.
Whined by Fr. J | July 11, 2008 11:57 PM
Actually, what you got was the mirror of what you did with your very first post which clearly fit this definition:
to adopt an air of condescension toward : treat haughtily or coolly
You came here, on your soapbox, to put PZ Myers, and this community “in it’s place.” You got your ass handed to you and mocked because, when you pontificate, lie and act like a baby, you get patronized.
That’s how the Internet works. Duh.
Yes you have. In this post even. Like this:
Nobody, that I saw, blamed “ALL WARS” on religion. Religion is the prime motivation of numerous wars, but so are economics, racism and other factors.
If that claim was made, I suspect it was a rhetorical charge thrown out by one of you God-botters.
Actually, your problem is DENIAL. You suffer from the delusion that we must respect your ideas. We do not. From there, you take offense when we laugh at your feeble canard-filled arguments.
Really, you’re suffering from delusions of adequacy when you think you actually made a salient point or a substantive argument. And coming to a gunfight with a knife… That’s laughable.
We don’t treat them at all, UNTIL THEY OPEN THEIR MOUTHS and PROVE THEY’RE STUPID. Seriously, you come in here with the SAME STUPID ARGUMENTS YEAR-AFTER-YEAR.
You want to be treated like an intelligent adult, act like one. So far you’ve acted like a petulant teenager with an 8-year olds grasp of the issues.
There you go again. Rubbing in your unearned superiority in our faces. You don’t even recognize how OFFENSIVE your “god bless” crap is… Yet your kind does it all the time… Like you’re being “above the fray.”
You want respect? Fucking act respectful. You god-bots have societies power. We’re the massive minority. You show us respect instead of abuse and a presupposed superiority that oozes from every post and maybe we’ll be nice.
Shit. I must be really due for what I did on that altar in 1989…
I for one never said it was wrong to disrespect people.
I merely have repeatedly pointed out that claiming that criticizing an idea is NOT the same as criticizing a person, and that when people make that claim they are wrong, and often making the claim out of a cowardly attempt to defend their beliefs without literally defending them.
On the subject of disrespecting actual people, I think it’s perfectly fine to disrespect those deserving of it. Like that vile pig Bill Donohue.
Phil Vaz,
to give you an idea of how ridiculous a rational thinker may approach this issue of transsubstantiation, I will take for reference this article on gluten free hosts;
The church has apparently approved low gluten hosts (0.01%) gluten, but some people are wondering, how low can they go ?
http://www.ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur47.htm
Listen to how ridiculous the whole thing becomes :
“I AM SURE IT IS ONLY A QUESTION THE CHURCH CAN DECIDE”
So, how can the church decide what is the minimum percentage of gluten acceptable for the host to be capable of transsubstantiation ? How do they proceed to get the answer ?
Why don’t thay say that ONE molecule of Gluten is enough, like this we will know the formula,
I don’t know where they find it in the bible though, but that’s another matter.
Don’t you see how far the church is willing to corrupt the message of Christ, just in order to save face ?
ahhhhh goood morning /streeeeeeeeeeetch.
If you eat beef you are desecrating their beliefs. Where and how it is done really makes no difference. How would you feel about me say dropping a crucifix in a beaker of urine or smearing elephant shit on a picture of the Virgin mary…. but just not in your presence? Or using the bible as my personal stash of toilet paper… not in your presence? Even if you don’t know about it it would still be disrespecting some you you people’s beliefs.
Just so you know I don’t advocate what the kid did. i think it was sophomoric and rude.
I think a cracker is a cracker no matter who says something over it but I would never do that. But I can and will stand back and laugh while I point my finger at you folks who’s panties are so in a bunch over this.
Christianity really hasn’t been around 2000 years. It’s modern form, really, maybe 1600 for most the tenants to be in place.
But there are many, much older, still active religions on this big blue marble we call earth. Which kind of FUCKS UP YOUR ARGUMENT a bit, you ignorant twat.
Judaism has been around in various forms from 1,600 BCE. With the massive re-write from Israeli POLYTHEISM to Judean MONOTHEISM by the Judean priests occurring around 700 BCE.
Old as that may be, Hinduism is recognized as the OLDEST ‘formal’ religion.
Buddhism also predates Christianity.
Chinese folk religion, including ancestor worship, is something I don’t have a lot of knowledge about. It may, or may not, depending on how you view it as a religion, be the actual oldest known religion from a ‘civilized’ region. Adherents of this religion are often classified as Taoists or Confucianists. Some have adopted some buddhist practices withing their religion and are called buddhists. Others mix-and-match from those philosophies and even take in some from western religions. Really, it’s extremely complex and would require years of study to be able to adequately describe.
(And would be wasted on self-centered twats like yourself, so why should I bother. You don’t care about what anyone believes but you.)
“or pea on the grave of Charles Darwin or any great scientist for crying out loud!”
Given that I was buried – against my stated intentions – in Westminster Abbey, anyone trying to relieve themselves on my grave would find themselves with splashed shoes and spending time at Her Majesty’s Pleasure.
Epinephrine @ 1050: excellent riposte. I raise a glass of sherry in your direction.
PhilVaz: “That is what the classic Creeds are for.”
They have Classic Creeds now? Darn, and I was just getting used to New Creeds ™.
So, if I play with Jesus’ holy water, I can get two ho’s? Sign me up!
Wow! You really got the nuts come out of the woodwork on this one.
“Remember, PZ, you have absolutely no verifiable explanation of why, or how, we are here. None. Your atheism is a faith equal to or exceeding that of the most committed religious zealot.”
Wow, 99th percentile IQ or not, that email author is completely wrong.
Is his A-Thorism zealous? His A-Poseidonism? Pathetic. These people have no evidence. Nothing but shrieking, wounded tribalist sensibilities.
BTW, even if evolution were wholly discredited, that doesn’t make the Vatican’s outlandish claims one bit more valid.
Did you consider MPD? Or that she hears voices? Because she reminds me of a couple of the mentally ill whose trusts I run…
Phil i just went back and read all the posts after I went to bed last night and you still have not, it appears, even attempted to answer the request for factual evidence of the factual truth of transubstantiation.
All you are doing is taking circular argumentation and expanding it to a very long and drawn out recitation of scripture and repeating other peoples take on scripture.
I can boil it down for you.
Transubstantiation is true because people say it is true. They say it is true because other people who said it was true say it is true. These people say it is true because they read some words in the bible and took them literally. The words int eh bible are true because, well duh, they are in the bible.
No no where in there is any actual evidence.
“HAHAHAH – you idiots are exactly like the extremists that you claim to be against!”
So, owning firearms makes you an “extremist?”
That was promo right? Ignore him, I think he stayed up too late without a nap yesterday and got cranky.
It’s the condescending tone of “I/we are praying for you” that amuses me. Sounds like the conventional Sunday “confession & repentance” that so many Catholics humor every week.
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said in reply, “I give praise to you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for although you have hidden these things from the wise and the learned you have revealed them to the childlike.
Peace+
Who knew. Catholics and Muslims are both affraid of someone critical of thier views. Religion is such a fragile thing, I guess, any comment to the wise may crumble the whole facade.
I was raised catholic, some values taught were worthwhile – service to others, tolerance, and, so I thought, an intellectual challenge of ones views. I guess not. While I no longer believe in god, I had still a warm place for the values. I guess I am losing that too in the face of such a meaningless tirade. Catholics are really nothing more than any other religious group. Insane.
dan
Dan, it calls to you to go forth and get yourself a bronco,
I see you evil minions of satan are still at work.
Damn, I just woke up and this conversation is still going +200 posts. And some of you are the same people!
HI JENN!
While I now think you are a Poe or maybe even Kenny
i still wuv u a whole bunch
Feel like you’ve yelled “FAKE” at a pro wrestling match and now all the inginant old ladies around the arena are smacking you with their purses and mullet-haired men are bellowing “shut up, Dude” ?
Ron from Houston, claims he knows it’s fake. He has made it clear that if we yell “fake” we’re rude to the audience and makes everyone who understands that Pro Wresting is just entertainment look bad. Point taken. And then he reiterates this point. And then he elaborates about how douchebag/dick-like it is, and how he would NEVER kill anyone’s buzz over WWF while at the arena and that blah,blah, blah…
He made his point, but now he won’t shut up until he is sure everyone accepts him as the authority on how a skeptic should behave. And for the life of him, he doesn’t understand why everyone thinks he’s a troll after redundantly expressing what we understood the first time he expressed it.
I get it , Ron. I just don’t feel your views jibe with mine. I don’t speak for you, don’t presume to speak for me. So go have your Emily Post control freak meltdown elsewhere.
PhilVaz: “To call yourself a ‘Christian’ we need to have some standard of belief.”
Xeno: “You are dangerously close to the whole ‘No True Scotsman’-deal. The fact of the matter is that these people consider themselves christian….”
Based on what? Show me pantheism in the Bible, and more importantly, show me pantheism in the early Fathers: St. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110), St. Justin Martyr (c. 150) forward, to St. Augustine, or St. Thomas Aquinas, etc. Why should I believe pantheism is a “Christian” belief when it was never considered such? That’s what I would ask them. Pantheism is the belief that God is all and all is God, or God is “everything.” It is a classic Hindu belief, not a Christian one. Never was.
Xeno: “….are considered by others to be christian….”
Name the others. What I really want are their biblical arguments for pantheism, and more importantly, their historical arguments for pantheism as being “Christian.” If you cannot provide anything, they cannot consider themselves Christian. Period. Otherwise we are defining “Christianity” by “whatever I want it to be.” Sorry, there has to be a standard of belief. Christianity is not “whatever I want it to be.” If we can’t agree on that, we cannot agree on anything.
Xeno: “….and would likely not be swayed by your arguments.”
Remember, I am not a fundamentalist or evangelical or independent “Christian” whatever. I have a standard of belief: that is the historical Creeds, Tradition, and the Bible. As a Catholic I belong to a historical Christian Church with over 1 billion members (according to World Christian Encyclopedia stats). I can demonstrate historically and logically that my beliefs go back to Jesus and His apostles. I have done that on eucharist, I can do that on baptism, on the Trinity, etc.
If these pantheist people consider themselves Christian, I would ask them to show me pantheism is either (1) taught in the Bible, or (2) can be traced back through the early Fathers and saints to Jesus and his apostles.
Otherwise, why should I believe what they believe is “Christian” ? Give me their basis or standard for belief. If they say “Bible” fine — show me pantheism in the Bible. If they say “the early Church” fine — show me pantheism in the writings of the early Church. If they say I don’t have any basis for it, Christianity is whatever I say it is. I will not accept that, and we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Catholics don’t commit the “no true Scotsman” fallacy, you have us confused with fundamentalist “Bible-believing” (supposedly) independent Christians. If they claim to be “Catholic” that’s another issue — I simply point them to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the “sure norm for the faith” according to John Paul II when it was published. That is the modern standard for what Catholics believe today.
Another view of this: if I define evolution as “people came from monkeys,” would you accept that as an adequate definition of evolution? Or would I need to revise that?
Is “evolution” whatever I think or say it is, or does it have an accepted definition by science? Same idea as defining Christianity. Except change “science” to “history” and scientists become “the early Fathers.”
Phil P
Sir,
I too am well-educated and gainfully employed as an academic. I am quite familiar with the works of François-Marie Arouetand the other great philosophes of the 18th century. I might even be described as an expert on the early enlightenment (perhaps a commentary on the state of education today if nothing else). As I understand it, the great concern of the time was a blind and vengeful zealotry. According to some of the more sober philosophers of the age, even atheism was not wholly exempt from zealotry. I am wondering if this is a subject you have considered, and whether or not your offer to offend Catholics doesn’t serve as an incitement in the court of good sense.
Are you not a little worried that your passion, which some might see as a sort of “pneumatophobia,” if I can borrow a phrase from Cudworth and Shaftesbury, distracts from your arguments? I do not doubt that such nastiness will please those of an adolescent turn of mind, but what of the honest scientist and the philosopher? But a more urgent concern can be found. It seems to me that a man who places his confidence in reason to guide him through life must guard against obscuring his own sight with ire, whether it be theological or anti-theological. It is the same as with lying, I suspect. Appart from a concern for one’s own reputation and one’s duty to others, a man has a duty to himself to think clearly. Without that, what are we, I wonder.
I would welcome your reply.
Sincerely,
Travis Cook
St. John’s College, Santa Fe;
Belmont Abbey College, NC
I see you evil minions of satan are still at work.
Got any fetuses for us to barbeque?
My favourite has to be the first.
‘I know you are smarter than most people and probably even God himself, if you even believe in God. But you could learn something in humility.’
Seriously, isn’t that amazing?
Mr. Travis Cook,
What is your take on the reaction of the Catholics to the kid who, I admit, pulled a dumb stunt?
MAJeff @ #1805 – Most particularly, you qualify as not only one of the minions, but Satan’s littlest most evil of them all. You and He might even be one and the same.
MAJeff @ #1805 – Most particularly, you qualify as not only one of the minions, but Satan’s littlest most evil of them all. You and he might even be one and the same.
If you read a newspaper article about what actually happened, including Cook’s side of the story, and not just histrionics of Catholics on the Internet, or press releases by the Catholic League:
http://www.wftv.com/news/16798008/detail.html
You’ll find that his intention was to take the host back to his seat to show his friend, that some parishioners got physical with him (grabbed him and wouldn’t let him go), and that it wasn’t until after this happened that he decided to take the host home with him. In fact, he has filed charges within the university system against several parishioners.
One of the posts to PZ (line 617) challenged us to do a little scientific research about the eucharistic miracles. I wonder if anyone has looked at those sites. (a)http://www.acfp2000.com/Miracles/eucharistic.html (b)http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/engl_mir.htm
I don’t know… the evidence is pretty compelling… Its hard to argue against second-hand information and folk tales that have persisted for hundreds of years. Sounds more like “Big Wig” control tactics and ergot poisoning in most cases.
So when you finally get his side of the story, and not just the histrionics of Catholics, he doesn’t look like that big of asshole. In fact, it’s mostly the Catholics who are insane in their reactions.
Looks like a full internet is no longer a freak occurrence for you, PZ.
The outrage is because somebody had the guts to say look, the emperor has no clothes.
Pick your eucarist out of a cracker lineup 100% reliably everytime and i say you may at least have a case for saying its something other than a piece of bread. But in reality you cannot so your bare ass is just flapping about in the wind making you look like fools.
Exactly, Aristotelian/Thomist philosophy is bullshit. If you can’t differentiate two things in any way, then they are the same. Objects don’t have an essence. They are made of waveparticles, but you won’t find that in any holy book.
John Paul II
there’s an asshole to whom I’m not going to listen.
Kick ass. MAJeff is TEH DEBIL! I always wanted the devil’s recipe for hot sauce. Jeff?
Damn, I need a new recipe again?
I’m still keeping up with soup and cookies.
You and He might even be one and the same.
I am Satan! You’d better fear me motherfuckers! I’m coming to steal your souls and your crackers!
I like how so many emails want you to offend Muslims too. It’s too bad they’re not nearly as vocal in the US, where it’s the Christians who spout the nonsense. When Muslims do something idiotic halfway across the world, PZ doesn’t hesitate to call them morons.
In any case, what happened to turning the other cheek? Why would good Christians want to offend other faiths while they try to defend their own?
The irony is delicious.
Rev Dumbo @ 1807 – With your weak mind you more than likely will not understand this. You make fun of Catholics doing the will of God, while you and your friends of equally puny intelligence unwittingly do the will of satan.
KENNY!
got any more NDE stories for us to make fun of?
Isn’t there some sort of twelve step program for Catholics?
Hi, my name is Jenn and I have 32 cats. Just the other day, I assaulted a young man who took my cats cracker and then yelled at a bunch of people for stepping on my personal piece of the internet.
Setting aside the silly misspelling, you’re welcome to walk into Westminster Abbey and urinate on the floor. I won’t mind, Charles Darwin won’t even notice, but the Church of England might get a little pissy about it.
Neural T.
well, if this is really the story he wishes to stick to, I would advise him to rapidly change the content of this facebook page on which he appears as one of the signatories.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=18707785558
The whole thing just doesn’t fit.
Either he does like PZ, and fine, welcome to the club, or he indeed sticks to the story that his intention was only to show the Eucharist to his friend and not to disrupt mass or anything, but because people got physical, that’s why he reacted, and etc… which makes sense, but then why the facebook page where it’s all about atheism and funds that are diverted by the church ?
Ron in Houston @ 328
For your knowledge, the Catholics only consecrate so many “hosts.” After the communion service the Priest must eat all the remaining consecrated hosts.
That’s not true. Leftovers are stored in the tabernacle. It’s the extra wine that is drank.
So, the only way that someone can get their hands on a “consecrated host” is to go into their service, and try to disrupt it by not immediately consuming the host.
Actually, the host is handed to you or placed directly in your mouth by the priest. There’s no cafeteria monitors to make sure you consume your slice of jeebus.
PZ advocated violating the same precious first amendment that people invoke for him to call people demented fuckwits by advocating people interfere with the Catholics constitutionally guaranteed right to practice their religion.
You don’t understand the first amendment. The first amendment doesn’t state that everyone is obligated to follow and respect the religious beliefs of others. It states that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” The first amendment actually guarantees the right to proclaim that a person will desecrate something sacred to others as long as that person isn’t doing it at the behest of the government.
there’s an asshole to whom I’m not going to listen.
From an article that I linked to yesterday:
http://allafrica.com/stories/200806300247.html
There’s no such thing as Satan. He is as fictional as the Tooth Fairy.
Just thought I’d remind some of our posters here of that…
I’m doing the will of god because… and I’ve been Holding back on this….
I AM GOD
and I LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE YOU Jenn
negen: “So, what are we supposed to believe here ? If it were really his body, why are we supposed to eat it in remembrance of him ? Does this sound at all logical ? If it were only a symbol of his body, then yes, we eat it in remembrance of him, but if it were really his body, he wouldn’t have said eat it in remembrance of me, he would have said, do this so that I’m always with you, or something like that.”
You need to look up the background to the word -anamnesis- (translated “remembrance” or “comemmoration”), it is not simply “remembering” something in the mind, but recalling it fully and making it present. It also has a “sacrificial” background. I present a complete explanation of the biblical texts, the Catholic interpretation of them, and all the major statements of the Church Fathers from the end of the first century to about 500 AD (excluding St. Augustine which requires a separate article).
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num8.htm
Rev: “I can boil it down for you.”
Again, like I did with “craig” I will have to re-word your statement so it makes sense, and is how I am actually defending the eucharist (and transubstantiation) historically:
Transubstantiation is true because ALL the Church Fathers, ALL the Christian saints, and ALL Church Doctors believed it is a true Christian doctrine. They received it from Jesus Christ, who passed it on to his apostles, then to their successor bishops. The historical evidence is also found throughout the Liturgies of the Catholic Church both east and west. Nobody in the Church questioned the belief that the Eucharist is the true body and blood of Christ until Berengarius of Tours in 1050 AD. That is fully documented historically in such works as A History of the Doctrine of the Holy Eucharist by Darwell Stone. The words of Jesus found in the Bible “he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life…” and “This is My Body….This is My Blood” were taken and interpreted literally as referring to the Eucharist for at least 1000 years unanimously.
Rev: “No where in there is any actual evidence.”
I’m sorry, but that is historical evidence that the belief in the true, real, substantial presence of Christ in the Eucharist and the “sacrifice of the Mass” was held unanimously by all Christians for at least 1000 years. After the Reformation (500 years later) some Protestants started to doubt the belief and resorted to pure “symbol” or “figure” (those who rejected sacraments such as the Anabaptists).
Darwell Stone on the early history:
“…THROUGHOUT the writers of the period the identification of the ELEMENTS WITH THE BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST appears to be the ruling idea.”
“The belief that the Eucharist IS A SACRIFICE is found EVERYWHERE. This belief is coupled with strong repudiations of carnal sacrifices; and is saved from being Judaic by the recognition of the ELEMENTS AS CHRIST’S BODY AND BLOOD, of the union of the action of the Church on earth with that of Christ in heaven, and of the spiritual character of that whole priestly life and service and action of the community as the body of Christ which is a distinguishing mark of the Christian system.” (A History of the Doctrine of the Holy Eucharist, volume 1, page 54, emphasis added)
JND Kelly’s Summary of the Ante-Nicene Fathers
“….the eucharist was regarded as the distinctively Christian SACRIFICE from the closing decade of the first century, if not earlier. Malachi’s prediction (1,10f) that the Lord would reject the Jewish sacrifices and instead would have ‘a pure offering’ made to Him by the Gentiles in every place was early seized upon by Christians [Did 14,3; Justin dial 41,2f; Irenaeus ad haer 4,17,5] as a prophecy of the eucharist….It was natural for early Christians to think of the eucharist as a sacrifice. The fulfillment of prophecy demanded a solemn Christian offering, and the rite itself was wrapped in the sacrificial atmosphere with which our Lord invested the Last Supper….Ignatius roundly declares [Smyrn 6,2] that ‘the eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins and which the Father in His goodness raised’. The bread is the flesh of Jesus, the cup His blood [Rom 7,3]. CLEARLY he intends this realism to be taken STRICTLY, for he makes it the basis of his argument against the Docetists’ DENIAL of the REALITY of Christ’s body….Justin actually refers to the CHANGE [1 Apol 66,2]….So Irenaeus teaches [Haer 4,17,5; 4,18,4; 5,2,3] that the bread and wine are REALLY the Lord’s body and blood. His witness is, indeed, all the more IMPRESSIVE because he produces it quite incidentally while refuting the Gnostic and Docetic REJECTION of the Lord’s real humanity. Like Justin, too, he seems to postulate a CHANGE [Haer 4,18,5]…..The eucharist was also, of course, the great act of worship of Christians, their SACRIFICE. The writers and liturgies of the period are UNANIMOUS in recognizing it as such.” (Early Christian Doctrines, page 196-198, 214 emphasis added)
NEW CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA under Eucharist (as Sacrament)
“Nothing is more solid than the UNANIMITY of belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist for the first 1,500 years of the Church. The spontaneous uproar caused by men such as Berengarius of Tours (d. 1088) only attests the more to the unquestioned acceptance of the Real Presence. This UNANIMOUS belief of 1,500 years is itself an argument to its truth. For it is impossible that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, could leave the Church in error over a long period of time about one of the central doctrines of Christianity, according to the argument from prescription.” (NCE, volume 5, page 604)
That’s all I was saying. This answers the objection that the belief was invented sometime in the 8th or 9th century AD.
Of course this assumes several things, as I’ve already pointed out:
(1) God exists
(2) therefore, supernatural miracles are possible
(3) Jesus exists (not a problem historically)
(4) Jesus rose from the dead establishing his claims to divinity/deity
(5) Jesus established the Catholic Church to teach the truth on faith and morals
(6) Historically this Church began with the 12 apostles as leaders, and was succeeded by the bishops of the Catholic Church, with St. Peter and the Popes in Rome
Even though (5) and (6) are not accepted fully by Protestants/Orthodox, they would accept the evidence of the early Fathers. Atheists/skeptics/rationalists etc do not accept assumptions (1) or (2) or (4) so we would have to start there before anything in “Christian doctrine” can be discussed (such as eucharist or transubstantiation). The basic idea here is, regarding Christian doctrine (not science, but Christian doctrine), something unanimously (or virtual unanimous) believed by all the early Christians, should be accepted as true. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would guide the Church into all truth (cf. John 14:16f; 16:13; Matt 28:20; etc) and St. Paul that the Church is “the pillar and foundation [or ground] of the truth.” (1 Tim 3:15)
Of course all Christian doctrine is based on the revelation from God (the Bible ultimately), we don’t claim otherwise. But the inerrancy or infallibility of the Bible would not have to be established to accept the Resurrection (as William Lane Craig argues).
Phil P
negen #1101
It’s possible that his intentions have evolved and changed as his he watched the hysterical reaction over all of this.
“”The church cannot be held responsible for the guilt of its members that have acted against the evangelic law; they will be called to account for their own actions.”
Well isn’t that handy. Since these people were representatives of the church, acting on the church’s behalf, and representing their actions as being the actions of the church, that pretty much means that the church can never be held responsible for anything, ever.
The church has in the past officially done heinous shit, but when called on it in the future they can essentially say “we don’t do that anymore, so you can’t hold us responsible for having done it then.”
How moral.
Rey Fox @71
Everyone knows that Samoas are way better. I blaspheme heartily!
I simply can not condone your heretical utterances any longer. It is well known that Tagalongs are the one, true cookie. All praises to the Holy peanut butter and his true Son, chocolate!
Phil I know you mean well here but are you even paying attention?
I’m not arguing that people believe that the Eucharist is true. If that is what you are saying you’ve wasted a lot of space because the reaction of the Catolics freaking out is a good sign that people believe it.
yes you have to ASSUME the whole basis of your argument is true to prove it is true. That’s the definition of circular reasoning.
Transubstantiation is true because ALL the Church Fathers, ALL the Christian saints, and ALL Church Doctors believed it is a true Christian doctrine.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
The AA @1104 – Yes, TAA there is a devil. The proof is you and your like minded brothers. Satan’s biggest lie is that he does not exist, and you believe the lie.
Jesus existing is not a problem historically?
I’d really have to dispute that. Where are the contemporaneous accounts?
John Paul II clearly was not aware that after the war there was a group at work within the Vatican providing nazis with identity documents in order that they could avoid arrest by the occupying powers and flee Germany. Of course he also did his best to ensure no one else knew about the activities of the group as he refused to allow historians access to the records.
*HUGS :)
Transubstantiation is true because ALL the Church Fathers, ALL the Christian saints, and ALL Church Doctors believed it is a true Christian doctrine.
No, sorry, that doesn’t make something true. Reality makes something true.
If all the Church fathers said Jimmie the Cat was a dog, but he looked like a cat, acted like a cat, and his sequenced DNA came back as cat DNA, he would still be a cat. No amount of prayer or ritual would make him a dog.
Fr. J @ 417
Some of the “threats” are obviously pranks or perhaps even hoaxes perpetrated by fellow atheists to make Catholics look bad.
No need to fake it. The catholic church and a goodly number of its’ followers have been doing that quite well for the past 1,700 years. But your powers of prophecy and omniscience intrigue me. Are you Jeebus?
If PZ did something like this to another group his university would discipline him. That’s a fact and you all know it.
Actually no, that’s not a fact. PZ mocks woo from all the various woo merchants on a regular basis. He also offered to desecrate the Koran too. Fortunately those posts are all still stored on this blog. Perhaps you should look before you speak.
So how come nobody is commenting on it?
Allow me.
Ripping apart the Eucharist for those of the Catholic faith is equivalantly worse than force-feeding a cow to a Hindu
You’re kidding, right? Desecrating a cracker is worse than physically forcing someone to violate their religious beliefs? Are you like, stupid or something?
There. That’s about the level of response it deserves. Happy now?
c’mon Jenn,
N.D.E.s!
N.D.E.s!
C’mon, don’t let us down. BRING TEH CRAZY!!! Belief in some satan-woo isn’t enough. N.D.E.S!!!!!
Phil, at 880 makes a large, impassioned plea about the history of the Doctrine of Transubstantion.
Phil is dead wrong. Because Phil ignores that his research is based on corrupt data. Like it or not, Phil, the bible has been changed by your Catholic Priests who, before the dark ages, made substantial changes to it in order to bolster their particular religious views vis other Christian faiths.
Specifically, the Last Supper is one of those LATER ADDED passages. In the Last Supper…Jesus says, “This is my body which has been given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” And he gives the cup and says, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood which is shed for you.”
But those verses are missing from some of the oldest and best manuscripts of Luke’s Gospel. Further, without those verses, Luke nowhere else talks about Jesus’ death as being an atonement, a sacrifice for the sake of others.
It also turns out that the account in Luke about Jesus sweating blood as he prays in the garden is missing from our oldest and best manuscripts. This too was added later.
The parable about not stoning the woman? It’s in John. It was added later and was MOVED from either from Matthew or Mark (I can’t remember which off the top of my head and remodeling has put my reference materials in boxes).
Anyway, Transubstantion does NOT trace back to this Jesus guy. It traces back to the 4th or 5th Century when it was added into Luke.
The same happened with the Trinity. There was nothing in the original manuscripts. So it was added by the early Catholics to bolster their doctrine against their competition.
That a Christian conduced “research” from a corrupt, self-affirming document that they’ve deliberately changed to bolster what they believe is funny. My attitude is so what? It’s phony research conducted with a pre-ordained conclusion where all contrary evidence of prior acts of malfeasance and tampering is excluded.
Fortunately, in these modern times, Western biblical archeology is getting beyond the “The Bible is Unquestionably True” paradigm. And crap like this is becoming well known, versus a dark and buried secret hidden from us since the dark ages.
SC (Comment #93):
I found that one rather touching. It’s about the only one of them that appeals to an honest human emotion.
The spontaneous uproar caused by men such as Berengarius of Tours (d. 1088) only attests the more to the unquestioned acceptance of the Real Presence.
This is laughable. “I believe it because it is absurd!” Berengarius was just calling them on their bullshit, which would be obvious to anyone not brainwashed by their doctrines from childhood.
Nobody in the Church questioned the belief that the Eucharist is the true body and blood of Christ until Berengarius of Tours in 1050 AD.
Wow. That means absolutely everyone in the Church was a raving nutcase – and an admitted cannibal – for about 1000 years! That’s impressive!
How the hell did I miss that.
I mean. Wow. Finally some honesty.
The bible is like a small child’s security blanket.
Perfect. I’m going to have to keep the link to that stored somewhere.
Rev Big Dummy @ 1105 – You, TAA. PZ etc have been given free will by God. With that gift, you willfully choose to do evil. You believe there is no God, or no satan, no evil, so that you can continue to live and wallow in your own sensual animal-like existence. I say “animal-like” because you are like the animals who were made without rational minds. Humans are made with rational minds, but you willfully choose to let your mind sit inert, while your animal instincts take over. You are blinded by your own choice.
Jenn @ 1112
Negative. The very idea is ludicrous. Every civilized person knows that Pluto is the lord of the underworld. The very idea that some upstart fallen angel could be the equal of a true god is laughable.
Jenn,
Atheists are no more proof that the devil exists than toasters are proof that Zeus exists. Have you ever heard of a non-sequitur?
You have no evidence that Satan exists. Simply stating you believe it doesn’t make it so.
Roses are red
Violets are blue
Jenn makes wackey arguments
But Rev. BDC still LOOOOOOOOVVES YOU!!!
The history doesn’t matter. The entire issue is little more than an argument akin to stating that Santa Claus squeezes not only into chimneys of any size whatsoever–but also even create one, go down it, and make it disappear as if it had never been there…for all those homes that don’t have chimneys.
So many Byzantine, long-winded arguments, yet all are the equivalent of those “serious” theological debates about angels waltz-tango-foxtrotting on a pinhead, a tiresome attempt to divert from the real problem: The evidence of the deity is rather…thin. Full stop. Nothing beyond that matters.
1126 – Satan is not God’s equal. God created the angels therefore satan is a created creature while God is uncreated because He always existed.
It’s interesting to look at the life of Berengarius of Tours, about whom I admit to knowing nothing but the name before now: it appears his work was one of the first faint flickers of reviving rationality after the rule of unreason imposed on western europe by the Catholic Church.
Phil P (or is that Phil Vaz?), you are to be commended for keeping a cool head here, but honestly, why haven’t you responded to the questions/criticism of previous commenters who have pointed out that atheists don’t even accept the existence of the supernatural? OK, so maybe you’ve “proven” some things about the Eucharist, although I’m sure there are Protestant apologists who would disagree with that and marshall plenty of evidence against your claims.
But really, so what?
I think Christianity is based on legends, that it’s alleged founder may have indeed existed, but was only a Jewish zealot if he did. More than that, I believe there is no good reason for accepting the existence of the so-called “supernatural”. So why on Earth would I care what Church Father So-and-So thought or how to translate a Greek word from what is very obviously NOT a supernaturally inspired “Scripture”?
You, TAA. PZ etc have been given free will by God. With that gift, you willfully choose to do evil. You believe there is no God, or no satan, no evil, so that you can continue to live and wallow in your own sensual animal-like existence.
mmmmm, sensual animal-like existence. That sounds hot. I’ll keep it.
As for the rest, why do we “do evil” automatically just because we don’t believe in God? Oh, right. That’s Christian morality. It doesn’t matter how many people you kill if you accept Jesus before you die. The murderer goes to heaven and the atheist who never hurt anyone goes to hell.
You can keep that morality.
Afternoon all! Still going I see? I know what piss off Catholics enough to make them leave…
*runs around naked*
“…what will piss off…”
Sorry for the bad grammar.
I found that one rather touching. It’s about the only one of them that appeals to an honest human emotion.
I agree. It’s pathetic, in both senses of the word.
TAA @ 1127 – Just because you say that God doesn’t exist doesn’t make it so either. You have no evidence that He doesn’t exist.
SMOOCHES!!
I <3 U
I love you Jenn.
Phil. You seem to be missing the nature of rational discussion. It does not matter how many people believe that bits of cracker are part of Jesus, or for how long they have believed that. It is all question-begging until you have proved the existence of God.
So, as I posted earlier, you first have to prove the supernatural a coherent concept that can be shown to exist.
I suggest you start with that.
Not me. This is the weekend. I’m not working today.
Besides, it’s been determined that we’re an ilk, not minions.
Jenn,
You’re the one claiming God/Satan/et al are real, not me. The burden lay with you to provide evidence.
Otherwise every crazy, unfounded assertion ever made would have to command respect because we can’t “disprove” them (Zeus, Ra, Thor etc).
*sigh* Have you ever been in a debate before, Jenn?
The onus of proof is on the one making the assertion. To reject a proposition is not itself an assertion. When you claim that God exists, that he has certain characteristics (including human character flaws like anger and jealousy), that he sent a demigod to save his people, and that by performing a ritual we can instantiate that demigod in a processed wheat product, YOU have to provide evidence for those claims.
BTW, you haven’t proven that all the other gods DON’T exist either. Why aren’t you Hindu or Sikh?
Aaaahhh! Too horrible to read those emails. Too disgusting to read… I actually stopped reading on the 3rd email. No wonder PZ warn us. Those are seemingly perfect examples of how low those religious people. (Can I call them Pharisees? They really remind me of them…)
Hopefully I won’t meet any of those kind in person; Aahh! What a nightmare…
Will try to help the Prof. to get out of this ugly mess.
Everyone knows that Samoas are way better. I blaspheme heartily!
I simply can not condone your heretical utterances any longer. It is well known that Tagalongs are the one, true cookie. All praises to the Holy peanut butter and his true Son, chocolate!
Oh, come now. Everyone knows that Tagalongs are the cookie of creation, and Samoas are the cookie of destruction. All-Abouts are the cookie of maintenance, and of course Do-si-dos are the cookie of hell, which is where they belong.
Jenn, continuing to make bald assertions will get you nowhere. We demand evidence. It’s the only reliable way to differentiate truth from fiction. All other discussion is moot.
I’m beginning to think you’re a troll.
Stop trying to rationalize with Jenn. She is fueled by emotions and emotions only.
That’s why i love her.
I can demonstrate historically and logically that my beliefs go back to Jesus and His apostles.
Tosh. Read Geza Vermes or John Dominic Crossan.
Rev.,
I’m just shocked to still hear these arguments. “You can’t disprove (absurd proposition X)” doesn’t fly anywhere else in life, why on earth do they suppose it’s convincing here?
Phil, I think I can safely speak for the majority here when I say that nobody gives a shit about your blatherings concerning your superstitious nonsense nor the book in which the idiocy is published. No matter how hard you try, unless you’ve already been brainwashed and have thrown common sense and critical thinking to the wind, you can’t possibly believe something as moronic as a saltine=supernatural being. Please feel free to pimp your stupid blog someplace else.
Sorry about that – the second sentence in my 1145 should have also been italicized as a quote from 1109.
because believing in fairy tales is comforting. Any attempt to shatter that comfort will be met with a strong emotional response. Emotional responses can be very irrational. As Jenn has demonstrated.
But i still WUB HER BERRY BERRY MUCH
Here’s a classic point: I submit we are both atheists. You reject thousands of gods. I just reject one more god than you.
If you think about why you reject all those other gods, you will realize why I reject yours.
Sastra (Comment #341):
… wins the thread. Brilliant.
Holy Hooves – I go offline for a long pray and then to bed… and when I wake up – 800 MORE comments to read through!?
And now we have Jenn –
Okay Jenn, I’ll see your invisible friend, and raise you. So unless you can prove the Invisible Pink Unicorn does NOT exist, then you’re wrong.
I know, because the lovely Invisible Pink Unicorn TOLD me that you’re wrong, and that you should drop the wafers and start eating pizza instead.
And stay away from Spaghetti – that’s heresy!
Nick Gotts @ #1148 John Dominic Crossan lives in Orlando. He’s probably the one who taught Webster Cook how to desecrate the Blessed Sacrament.
Actually, I suspect sarcasm to your idiocy.
” The proof is you and your like minded brothers. Satan’s biggest lie is that he does not exist, and you believe the lie.”
You don’t know what you’re talking about. You don’t know these people. You’ve never met them or had an actual conversation with them. You have not the foggiest idea of what they actually believe or how they conduct thier lives.
That’s behavior that looks a whole lot like bearing false witness, honey, and in the Caltholic faith, it’s a mortal sin.
Yes, I’m sure at the Atheist weekley word domination meetings they hatched their Nefarious plan to torment a cracker and it’s millions of whimpering followers.
I know they didn’t discus my love for you there Jenn, but I am not ashamed.
George @ 1158 – Don’t be silly. By reading their, and your comments, one can see that they not only do not know what they are talking about, but that they do not WANT to know. No one has to meet them; their words speak for what is in their hearts.
While I would love to meet you, this can not be. My love will always have to be a distant love. A strong but distant love.
Actually, they didn’t. That’s the funny thing.
They decided these things were true because THEY believed them to be true. Then, to make them true, the early Catholics ADDED to the scriptures. They added the doctrine of the Trinity. They added the last supper.
Then, having added these things, made claims about them being there all this time. Even though the historical evidence says they weren’t.
What you don’t know is that we’ve got early manuscripts of Luke. Earlier than the ones that were changed by the Catholics. The Last Supper wasn’t there. Jesus sweating blood in the Garden of Gethsemane wasn’t there.
These were added hundreds of years after the earliest Luke manuscripts were written. By Catholic Priests. There are other additions, by Catholic Priests, to the bible.
In the end, entire line of reasoning is based on an lie perpetuated since the dark ages and is circular. Your forefathers believed a certain thing. They added the “evidence” of their beliefs to the bible. Then they said “These things are true because they’re in the bible, so we believe them.”
Dude, never assume an atheist isn’t at least as well-read as you. And doesn’t have more information about dirty church secrets, and the origins of your religion, than you. Because a LOT OF US on this blog do. Including me.
Jenn–I’m still waiting for the evidence that God and Satan exist. I’m prepared to change my mind to suit new facts and understandings
Provide the evidence for Christian claims or you’re just bullshitting. I suspect you’ll be unable; these claims aren’t exactly new.
I think you should actually take these threats seriously. They are, after all and self admittedly, cannibals.
Dear Joel@1016
I don’t know about anyone else, but I think PZ and all of the rest of you WILL ROT IN YONKERS FOR WEEKS AND WEEKS for your disrespect of Ralph’s body.
Man alive, I’ve never disrespected Ralph (he’s our FedEx guy at work) and I’ve been rotting in Yonkers for over a decade. Yonkers does, however, have the biggest population of “mint-lookin’ guido girls (TM)” in the country, outside of Joisey.
Welcome back, Etha!
Neural T #1107,
well if that’s true that his intentions have evolved, why doesn’t he explain it on this facebook page ?
Why doesn’t he defend himself better ? He seems to be very ill advised.
All I’m saying is that this facebook page is bad evidence and some people are going to use it against him.
I’ll answer this one, and that’s about it. Yes, “God exists” needs to be established before I can establish the eucharist. I was only responding to the historical claims.
Adamant: “Jesus existing is not a problem historically? I’d really have to dispute that. Where are the contemporaneous accounts?”
Not a problem, that is correct. You cannot dispute it. I say this because the only people who do dispute the historical Jesus are Internet folks or eccentrics. Professional historians and “Jesus scholars” are unanimously agreed that not only did Jesus exist, we can at least establish many facts about him (e.g. for example, that he was cruficied under Pontius Pilate).
These quotes from historians will do for now:
Günther Bornkamm: “…to doubt the historical existence of Jesus at all…was reserved for an unrestrained, tendentious criticism of modern times into which it is not worth while to enter here.” (Jesus of Nazareth, 28)
Rudolf Bultmann: “Of course the doubt as to whether Jesus really existed is unfounded and not worth refutation. No sane person can doubt that Jesus stands as founder behind the historical movement whose first distinct stage is represented by the Palestinian community.” (Jesus and the Word, 13)
Michael Grant: “This sceptical way of thinking reached its culmination in the argument that Jesus as a human being never existed at all and is a myth….But above all, if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus’ existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned….To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ-myth theory. It has ‘again and again been answered and annihilated by first-rank scholars’. In recent years ‘no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus’ — or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary.” (Jesus: An Historian’s Review of the Gospels, 200)
Paul Maier: “…the total evidence [for the existence of Jesus] is so overpowering, so absolute that only the shallowest of intellects would dare to deny Jesus’ existence. And yet this pathetic denial is still parroted by ‘the village atheist,’ bloggers on the internet, or such organizations as the Freedom from Religion Foundation.” (“Did Jesus Really Exist,” an article on http://www.4Truth.net)
Jeffery Jay Lowder of Internet Infidels: “There is simply nothing intrinsically improbable about a historical Jesus; the New Testament alone (or at least portions of it) are reliable enough to provide evidence of a historical Jesus. On this point, it is important to note that even G.A. Wells, who until recently was the champion of the christ-myth hypothesis, now accepts the historicity of Jesus on the basis of ‘Q’.” (“Josh McDowell’s ‘Evidence’ for Jesus,” also Wells The Jesus Myth [Open Court, 1999])
Craig Blomberg: “Combining the evidence of Thallus, Pliny, Tacitus and Suetonius, one can accumulate enough data to refute the fanciful notion that Jesus never existed, without even appealing to the testimony of Jewish or Christian sources.” (The Historical Reliability of the Gospels, 197)
Robert Van Voorst: “Contemporary New Testament scholars have typically viewed their [i.e. Jesus-mythers] arguments as so weak or bizarre that they relegate them to footnotes, or often ignore them completely….The theory of Jesus’ nonexistence is now effectively dead as a scholarly question….Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted.” (Jesus Outside the New Testament, 6, 14, 16)
Will Durant: “The Christian evidence for Christ begins with the letters ascribed to Saint Paul….No one has questioned the existence of Paul, or his repeated meetings with Peter, James, and John; and Paul enviously admits that these men had known Christ in his flesh. The accepted epistles frequently refer to the Last Supper and the Crucifixion….in essentials the synoptic gospels agree remarkably well, and form a consistent portrait of Christ….no one reading these scenes can doubt the reality of the figure behind them. That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so loft an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospel.” (Ceasar and Christ, volume 3 of Story of Civilization)
Graham Stanton of Cambridge: “Today, nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed and that the gospels contain plenty of valuable evidence which has to be weighed and assessed critically. There is general agreement that, with the possible exception of Paul, we know far more about Jesus of Nazareth than about any first or second century Jewish or pagan religious teacher.” (The Gospels and Jesus)
Bishop N.T. Wright: “It is quite difficult to know where to start, because actually the evidence for Jesus is so massive that, as a historian, I want to say we have got almost as much good evidence for Jesus as for anyone in the ancient world….the evidence fits so well with what we know of the Judaism of the period….that I think there are hardly any historians today, in fact I don’t know of any historians today [aside from G.A. Wells, etc], who doubt the existence of Jesus….No Jewish, Christian, atheist, or agnostic scholars have ever taken that [proposition] seriously since. It is quite clear that in fact Jesus is a very, very well documented character of real history. So I think that question can be put to rest.” (“The Self-Revelation of God in Human History” from There Is A God by Antony Flew and Roy Abraham Varghese [HarperOne, 2007])
Basically the “non-historical Jesus” concept is dead as a scholarly question. No one has defended that in mainstream NT scholarship for about 100 years. If you are looking for rebuttals to eccentric folks like Robert Price, Earl Doherty, or G.A. Wells (who changed his mind in the mid 1990s), I would suggest The Jesus Legend by Eddy/Boyd (Baker, 2007), or Shattering the Christ Myth by J.P. Holding (2008).
Phil P
My fav:
“We need to hit him where it hurts. Perhaps I should grab a copy of his Holy Book, which I assume to be Darwin’s Origin of Species, and desecrate that! LOL!!”
Really?
Other than the fact that I will need to spend a few bucks to get a new copy, there is nothing that prevents *me* from taking a crap on a copy of The Origin of Species.
Why? Because it’s just a “frackin” book! It’s paper, glue and ink.
“Desecrating” it would not change the content / ideas that are contained within… At all. Ever.
Is the same not true for the (VERY POWERFUL and EXTREMELY TRUE and INFINITELY WONDERFUL) ideas and power contained in the bible / Qur’an / Torah / communion wafer?
An all powerful god? Being held “hostage” via a cracker by a puny human?
Surely the omnipotent God / Jesus / whatever could survive a bit of their / his / its flesh being held in a plastic baggie / fed to a dog, being crushed and smoked with some weed (Holy smoke? Sorry…) / crapped on / etc., etc.?
Phil I appreciate your attempt here but all of the historical claims of people existing that believe the Eucharist is true mean nothing without first establishing the validity of the existence of God or the divinity of Jesus.
Sorry hit submit to early that should read
Phil I appreciate your attempt here but all of the historical claims of people existing that believe the Eucharist is true mean nothing except that they believe it is true. Without first establishing the validity of the existence of God or the divinity of Jesus it means nothing.
Of course there is no evidence. This is why the Catholics ADDED THE LAST SUPPER to Luke hundreds of years after it had been written. They believed to be true, so they added it in. Now, since it’s in the bible, it must be true. Perfect circular reasoning with manufactured evidence.
Phil, like most Christians, really doesn’t realize that his source materials are changed, often dramatically, by the early Catholics. And that, like a kid who downloads an essay from the Internet, makes a few changes, and calls it his term paper doesn’t realise there are tools to expose the fraud.
Later, when the professor uses one of the term paper verification services, like Mydropbox.com or Turnitin and BOOM, it’s an F. The kid thinks he got ripped off by the Term Paper service and sold him a crap essay. Little does he understand the tools are there to catch his cheating butt.
Well, archeology is starting to do that now. Modern archeology has had a paradigm shift in the way collects and interprets data. It’s gotten away from “reinforcing and interpreting through” the Christian Bible phase in which it was stuck for well over 200 years. And it looks pretty grim for the God botherers.
As for your observation, congratulations. You saw the exact circular argument repeated without thought by Phil. So, you get a…
CRACKER!!!!!
TAA @ 1163 – There is evidence of God all around in the beauty of the natural world which is a reflection of Him. However, blind people cannot see. There is evidence of satan by reading this blog and the hate it contains which comes from human hearts made of stone. You cannot see because you will not use your mind in the purpose for which it was made.
MAJeff,OM… since you are the devil, could you post a recipe for your famous “food cake”?
Phil, you really should turn your scholastic efforts toward more worthy (read reality-based) goals. All that writing, and all you’ve provided is blatherskite.
I love you PZ!
No hate from me Jenn. Only love.
Christians burned people at the stake for centuries; devised numerous torture techniques and devices in the Middle Ages to punish “heresy”; during the so-called age of discovery they conquered entire continents, enslaved and murdered the people there and forced the rest to convert to their religion; they persecuted Galileo and other scientists; in the 20th century they helped the Nazis exterminate Jews and other minorities; and now they continue to fight against the civil rights of gays, atheists, and anyone else who they decide is a sinner…
And they’re the ones who are offended?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
I’ve been wondering what grade Jenn finished before she dropped out of school since her level of discourse, credulousness, and appeal to emotion is on par with that of most six-year-olds I work with. Of course, she could have been home skooled, which would explain a lot…
MAJeffLucifer’s blog ranting Cook book.Contains these favorites and more!!!
MAJeff Food Cake
MAJeffed Eggs
Hell’s Red Velvet 7 layer Cake
Hell Fire and Brimstone Hot Sauce (I’ll burn ya twice and for eternity)
@ PhilVaz, #882:
“…I turn to Christ, because it is He whom I seek here; and I discover how the earth is adored without impiety, how without impiety the footstool of His feet is adored. For He received earth from earth; because flesh is from the earth, and He took flesh from the flesh of Mary. He walked here in the same flesh, AND GAVE US THE SAME FLESH TO BE EATEN UNTO SALVATION. BUT NO ONE EATS THAT FLESH UNLESS FIRST HE ADORES IT; and thus it is discovered how such a footstool of the Lord’s feet is adored; AND NOT ONLY DO WE NOT SIN BY ADORING, WE DO SIN BY NOT ADORING.” (Psalms 98:9)
Huh. I find that Psalm 98:9 [NIV] reads:
“…let them sing before the Lord, for he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples with equity.”
I don’t get your explanation.
@ PhilVaz, #993:
@ DingoDave, #692:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_adoration
“And Catholics have the nerve to claim that they don’t practice idolatry???”
I remember watching a news broadcast once where they showed a wafer inside of a glass or a plastic box, and it was being prayed in front of repeatedly.
All. Day. Long.
Phil, don’t you think this is taking things a little too far? How is it not idolatry?
@ PhilVaz, #1040:
“The Bible alone is not enough since it doesn’t define what a “Christian” is to believe, nor is it enough what any individual thinks of “Christianity.”
Really. Have you actually read the Bible cover to cover? Does it support your position?
Uh, RevBDC, having some idea where MAJeff, OM is coming from, would it not be a Red Velvet Mafia cake?
Well everyone knows that “that” mafia is just a front group for satanists and Jenn says that MAJeff is the DEVIL INCARNATE, soooooo I just went with it.
situations like these make me mortified and embarrassed that I ever associated with the Christian religion. I am not an atheist, but I find this whole situation completely ridiculous and laughable…and horrifying at the same time…I go back and forth between laughing and feeling completely disgusted with the religious right.
I can understand suggesting that the blog not be connected with the UMM website…but seriously people, if anyone else, with any other profession, posted a well-written, sarcastic blog that was perhaps a tad bit offensive, he/she would not receive death threats and letters to their place of work asking them to be fired.
Also… I’m pretty sure that a cracker and a prayer rug or koran are a bit different to destroy, seeing as a cracker has a value of about a penny….and destruction of property is not the same as putting a cracker in ones pocket.
“Well everyone knows that “that” mafia is just a front group for satanists”
So, Rev, is it Anton LaVey, or (wait for it!)…
ANTON LA GAY???!!!
OMSFG!!!
hehehe
bucky: “Huh. I find that Psalm 98:9 [NIV] reads”
Psalms 98:9 is a reference to St. Augustine’s writings, not to the Psalms of the Bible. Like the other 5 or so quotes I gave from St. Augustine, the references are to Augustine’s writings. The source I am using is mainly The Faith of the Early Fathers by William Jurgens. The Augustine volume is the third (green) volume. You want to learn a little about the Church Fathers. All of St. Augustine’s writings are online in various translations. Look for his commentary on the Psalms for the writings referring to those.
bucky: “Phil, don’t you think this is taking things a little too far? How is it not idolatry?”
As for the fundamentalist Protestant charge of “idolatry” basically, if it is Christ, it is not idolatry, since Christians are to worship and adore Christ. Which is what St. Augustine’s point was here: “BUT NO ONE EATS THAT FLESH UNLESS FIRST HE ADORES IT….AND NOT ONLY DO WE NOT SIN BY ADORING, WE DO SIN BY NOT ADORING.”
Philip Schaff on St. Ambrose and St. Augustine: “Ambrose speaks once of the flesh of Christ ‘which we today ADORE in the mysteries,’ and Augustine, of an ADORATION [at least “in the wider sense” of bowing the knee in respect] preceding the participation of the flesh of Christ [footnotes #2 and #3 gives the original Latin from these Fathers].” (History of the Christian Church, volume 3, page 502)
The Orthodox who broke from the Catholic Church in the 11th century, believe the same thing:
The Orthodox Confession of 1640 reads —
“Christ is now in heaven only and not on earth after that manner of the flesh wherein He bore it and lived in it when He was on earth; but after the sacramental manner, whereby He is present in the Holy Eucharist, the same Son of God, God and Man, is also on earth by way of TRANSUBSTANTIATION [kata metousiosis]. For the SUBSTANCE of the bread is changed into the SUBSTANCE of His holy body, and the SUBSTANCE of the wine into the SUBSTANCE of His precious blood.”
“Where it is fitting to WORSHIP and ADORE the Holy Eucharist even as our Savior Jesus Himself.”
“The priest must know that at the moment when he consecrates the gifts the SUBSTANCE itself of the bread and the SUBSTANCE of the wine are changed into the SUBSTANCE of the real body and blood of Christ through the operation of the Holy Ghost, whom the priest invokes at that time, consecrating this mystery….” (from Darwell Stone, A History, chapter 4 “Eastern Theology from the Sixth Century to the Present Time”)
bucky: “Really. Have you actually read the Bible cover to cover? Does it support your position?”
The claim I was making is that the Bible does not tell us what a “Christian” is to believe. What is essential Christian doctrine, and what is non-essential, according to the Bible? It does not say. The Bible uses the word “Christian” maybe 2 or 3 times (1 Peter 4; Acts 11), but it doesn’t tell us what they are to believe, explicitly, in a systematic well-defined fashion. That is what the Creeds, Catechisms, and Confessions are for. The Creeds tell Christians what is essential, and Catholics, Orthodox, and most Protestants would agree with that.
Phil P
Okay, two responses, first to Jenn:
Again, the beauty of the world is not in way sufficient evidence for the existence of any particular god. It’s a total non-sequitur. Even if the Abrahimic God were real this would be a pathetic line of argument. You have closed your mind off to rational argument in a way that I or no other skeptical atheist would. I could be convinced of the existence of God; you apparently could never be swayed from your original view no matter what. That is cult mentality. And with that, our exchange is over.
Phil, I am not a scholar of that period so I am not well-placed to engage in a historical pissing match with you. I’m simply unpersuaded that the Jesus described in the Gospels actually existed. I asked for contemporaneous accounts and you gave me a load of bunk likely from believers themselves.
Jenn, you believe in Satan, does that make you a polytheist?
And explain to me, if Satan is doing all these evil things, why does God not stop him? Is God not aware of Satan’s evil work? Then God is not omniscient. Is God not able to stop Satan’s evil? Then God is not omnipotent. Or is God not willing to stop Satan’s evil? Then God is not omnibenevolent. If God is not omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent, why worship him in the first place?
(Yes, it’s a variant of Epicurius’ paradox, but in this case, the standard excuse of “Free will” won’t work – free will was only given to humans, not to Satan, so that should not prevent God from stopping Satan from doing evil.)
I’m feeding my goldfish eucharists from now on! For solidarity, and for the lulz.
Moses: “Of course there is no evidence. This is why the Catholics ADDED THE LAST SUPPER to Luke hundreds of years after it had been written.”
You keep saying this but you do not provide a source (unless I missed it). Please provide your source that the following was added hundreds of years after the first century:
“For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.”
You are saying Luke 22:16-20 was not in Luke’s Gospel until hundreds of years later? Can you provide the source for this? Most NT scholars date Luke to the 80s, some earlier to the 70s or 60s. What you probably mean is that not every word in Luke 22:16-20 is textually certain (i.e. there are some variants). I do not have a problem with that. But you do not mean that the entire Eucharist narrative of Luke was “added later.” If so, document this. Acceptable scholars would be Bruce Metzger (NT critical scholar), I. Howard Marshall or W. Ward Gasque (Greek Commentary on the Gospel of Luke), Joachim Jeremias (his book on the Eucharist), J.N.D. Kelly or Philip Schaff on the early Fathers, etc.
BTW, the same Eucharist narrative with slight variation is found in Matthew 26, and Mark 14, and 1 Corinthians 11. I think you forgot about that. So we have it in four separate sources. St. John covers it in John chapter 6.
Phil P
Satan is My sockpuppet.
Because humans are gullible. I fool them, they fool each other, and best of all, they fool themselves.
I win no matter what!
@PhilVaz, #1185:
“As for the fundamentalist Protestant charge of “idolatry” basically, if it is Christ, it is not idolatry, since Christians are to worship and adore Christ”
So, Deuteronomy 5:8-9 no longer applies?
“You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or woship them…”
I suppose one could argue that since there is probably not a giant, floating wafer in heaven, this Scripture does not apply…
“The claim I was making is that the Bible does not tell us what a “Christian” is to believe. What is essential Christian doctrine, and what is non-essential, according to the Bible? It does not say. The Bible uses the word “Christian” maybe 2 or 3 times (1 Peter 4; Acts 11), but it doesn’t tell us what they are to believe, explicitly, in a systematic well-defined fashion. That is what the Creeds, Catechisms, and Confessions are for. The Creeds tell Christians what is essential, and Catholics, Orthodox, and most Protestants would agree with that.”
You didn’t answer my question.
The Bible does discuss several “essential” doctrines. Paul give abundant instructions on how to live out “the faith”. And if the word does not answer a specific issue, doesn’t James 1:5 give sufficient direction? Is it not also written that God will write his law on people’s hearts (instead of tablets of stone)?
“I see you evil minions of satan are still at work.”
NO! Satan is not my master, nor is his earthly avatar, Massachusetts Jeff! I live only to serve you!
“You believe there is no God, or no satan, no evil, so that you can continue to live and wallow in your own sensual animal-like existence.”
Yes! YES!
Rev:
“My love will always have to be a distant love. A strong but distant love.”
And you had better keep it that way! It is ME she favors with her whip!
I’ve read the original story, researched the source material, and read these hilarious comments without having to contribute, but I’ve grown so sick of the batshit crazy ravings of PhilVaz I just can’t hold it in…
PhilVaz!
Yes, YOU! There is NO god, there was NO jesus, and there is NO SUCH THING as crackers turning into the flesh of a god when a perverted, filthy old pederast uses the same mouth he just violated an innocent boy with to say secret, arcane words over it…
And quoting the words of some other batshit crazy fucktards from recent or ancient history doesn’t prove shit. All it demonstrates is that you are well versed with shit that supports your insanity and NOTHING ELSE!
You have been given way too many chances here, you batshit crazy fucktard, and now it’s time to PUT UP OR SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!
Demonstrate, repeatedly, and PUBLICALLY, the PROOF that a cracker becomes the ‘living flesh’ of a god. What constitutes PROOF? Multiple physical tests, you batshit crazy fucktard! Physical, verifiable tests that will PROVE, to all and sundry, that an actual cracker became flesh…
Until you do, you are nothing but another batshit crazy fucktard claiming ridiculous, stupid shit and quoting the drooling ravings of other batshit crazy fucktards at nauseating, disgusting, and completely pointless lengths to justify your insanity.
And none of this “Well, it’s a mystery” shit, either, PhilVaz! Physical PROOF! Or shut the fuck up!
NOW! HERE! FOR ALL TO SEE! DO IT! PROVE IT!
We’re all waiting, PhilVaz.
The floor is yours.
If it was having a rational conversation between two intelligent human beings – Jim
It’s impossible to have a rational conversation with someone who believes a man in a dress mumbling a few words over a cracker can (invisibly) turn it into part of the body of another man who has been dead nearly 2000 years.
#1193 “And quoting the words of some other batshit crazy fucktards from recent or ancient history doesn’t prove shit. All it demonstrates is that you are well versed with shit that supports your insanity and NOTHING ELSE!”
I was thinking the same thing, but with fewer swear words.
The Velvet Mafia was a good flick.
Yeah, sorry about that, Jennie.
The level of discourse defecated from PhilVaz is so disgusting, so ridiculous, any language higher than Eric Cartman is just wasted…
The challenge still stands, though, and I notice a deafening…silence.
to PhilVaz, #1080
“As a Catholic I belong to a historical Christian Church with over 1 billion members (according to World Christian Encyclopedia stats).”
NO.
first, a significant amount (at least 5%-10%) of that billion doesn’t even call himself a catholic. (for example i’m not a catholic but the catholic church counts me in, just because decades ago i was unwillingly baptised).
second, a massive amount (maybe 70%-80%) of that billion doesn’t even know all the dogmas they are required to believe in to be considered a catholic by your standard. they don’t know what the transubstantiation is, who the immaculate conception is about, and so on.
you can be part of a coherent (and crazy…) christian minority, or you can be part of a majority of christian hypocrites, but you can’t have it both ways.
No apologies necessary! I’m a grown woman, and honestly I swear like a sailor. The only reason I point it out, is because these defenders of the wafer have repeatedly avoided questions by pointing out the “language” used.
As if the word shit complicates the whole thread.
Yes, there is often a deafening silence from these defenders. I believe it’s because your correct that they are silent, but it may be that they are looking up the answer in their brains, I mean the Bible.
Take religion or leave religion, it’s a simple choice.
– NiCrush
No it isn’t, because so many of the religious try to force their weird views of right and wrong on everyone else.
craig@1005 – Real OM material! The core of Catholic doctrine in one paragraph!
I guess it depends on which arguments you want to believe are the better arguments Phil Vaz
You know, that sounds remarkably like admitting that the evidence and arguments for your religious convictions are so weak that they would not compel the belief of a rational person – but then, I knew that already.
Phil Vaz@1018
You just obscured the clarity of craig’s formulation with a lot of fancy words. Means the same and its still completely insane.
Satan is not God’s equal. – Jenn
“Why God no kill the devil?”
Just another heathen (1099):
Probably not. From the standard of posts I’ve seen from these people, I’m not sure how many of them can count to five much less twelve…
Just because you say that God doesn’t exist doesn’t make it so either. You have no evidence that He doesn’t exist. Jenn
Jenn, the evidence is overwhelming. Your “God” is supposed to be all-powerful, all-knowing, and absolutely good – yet there is evil and suffering in the world. This proves your “God” doesn’t exist: if it did, it would bring this evil and suffering to an end immediately.
Hey PhilVaz!
The challenge stands: prove crackers become flesh and I’ll stop hounding you.
Or have you shut the fuck up because you KNOW you CANNOT prove it?
John Dominic Crossan lives in Orlando. He’s probably the one who taught Webster Cook how to desecrate the Blessed Sacrament. – Jenn
This surely couldn’t be a sign of humour from Jenn, could it? Assuming it’s not, Jenn, does it really require a course of instruction from a renowned Biblical scholar to be able to desecrate a cracker?
As I was writing my letter of support for PZ, it occurred to me that the response by the Catholics proves their own disbelief and thus hypocrisy. Assume for a moment that transubstantiation is true and that the consecrated wafer is actually Christ. If a person were to abuse or destroy the wafer, then that person would have committed a direct offense against part of the Holy Trinity, a mortal sin that would doom him/her to eternal hell. No other person would be involved or should even care. He’s not taking a wafer away from anyone – I’m sure the priests have a sufficient supply.
By contrast, much of the mail PZ has received speaks of “harming” Catholics, as if he has done something to them personally. Some threaten him with harassment, loss of his job, or even physical harm. What this tells me is that they don’t really believe the story either – their “Host” seems to be invisible and powerless. The reason they feel the need to intervene is that they don’t want their “Sacrament” exposed for what it is – an absurd ritual. The whole thing is so ridiculous it’s just making Catholics look foolish.
I tried, I honestly tried to read all the hatemail, but my brain shut down halfway through, maybe to protect my sanity from the flaming stoopid
I’m retired from the military, a college graduate, and have a 99th percentile IQ, verified by High School, college, and military intelligence testing. Since you are a professor, I assume you understand percentile rankings.
I am also a convert to the Catholic Church, being fully accepted into the Church in my early 40s.
After reading that I’m wondering if he got the 99th percentile OR if he got 99 points. Anyone even slightly familiar with IQ tests knows how huge is that difference. My bet is on a 99 points score for obvious reasons
Here is an excerpt of his July 8 post, “It’s a Frackin’ Cracker!” accessed from the U of M website:
I love how they give away that they haven’t actually read your post, merely Donaghue’s hysterical response to it.
Ron in Houston,
I believe you that you are an atheist but if so then please go edit the post titled, Godless Communists on your blog because it makes you look like a raving fundamentalist.
Now as to your concerns. Well I think it is possible to score a Eucharist without disrupting the ceremony so you’ve lost me there. You seem to agree when you say,
How do you believe this would be done given your other statement about how much tight control they have?
I believe that once they put it in your mouth then it’s yours. Furthermore if they aren’t careful and they are not then this can happen without deception. I know they aren’t because I’ve been to Catholic services and they hand these out to whoever comes up and kneels.
The only thing I find of concern with PZ post was the phrase “if any of you would be willing to do what it takes to get me some, or even one,”.
That is easily read as asking someone to do just about anything. It’s perfectly reasonable to interpret that as a call to disrupt, steal, break into, etc. So could understand that if you actually brought it up. However you didn’t.
Instead you seemed to fabrication some notion that it’s impossible to get a Eucharist without disrupting a service. I don’t think that’s the case.
I also think you are mistaken to think that there is some “cause of atheism” or whatever you said. I don’t understand why you think that way. All you share with the other posters here and PZ Myers is a lack in belief. You might as well be talking about the “cause of aleprechaunism”.
Despite what some of the others say about “We all don’t care” well they don’t speak for everyone. They wish they did but they don’t. I’ve come to recognize many things that makes me a lot closer to your opinions on this matter than many of theirs.
But you are being silly if you think of PZ as your representative. Yeah sure there are going to be bigots out there who think that every “atheist” is out to steal the crackers but that’s in part their problem. Funny thing is that in this regard PZ is no better than them.
He assumes everyone in a group no matter how loosely defined is of the same opinion on everything. As an example he attacks all libertarians as vile because of the opinions of some. Does the same with Catholics. I suspect he doesn’t talk much with any Catholic friends he has. Some are quite liberal and laugh at this kind of thing.
Many of the commenters here are attracted to that kind of thinking and do the same thing. If you have a contrary opinion they have to stamp it out no matter what the cost. They’re rude nasty childish and the like. They go even further than PZ does, and frankly that’s what would concern me about his calls to “do anything it takes”. One of them may take him up on it.
So there are atheists out here who know what you are talking about.
My solution to dealing with this whole issue of people pigeonholing is to not use any of the standard labels anymore. I don’t refer to myself as a atheist because I have many positive philosophical beliefs that are not captured by “atheist”. I’m not a communist for instance, or an objectivist. What I had been calling myself was a responsibilian which pretty much screws up attempts to pigeonhole.
They are concerned that you are involving them via their organization. Like if some Myers were advocating that people adopt dogs from PETA or ASPCA and bring them to him for vivisection.
Just like they might fear his even speaking out might endanger their child to burn in hell forever.
I still think it’s crazy but it actually does “involve them” in their own worldview.
Besides he advocated “doing what it takes” in getting the cracker and that might possibly involve them. Just like if some crazed member of PETA said that it’s members should “do whatever it takes” to free Myer’s zebrafish. They might just break in, distrupt a class, or something else.
Had he not included that phrase then he would have been on much more solid ground. I think he should apologize for that as hyperbole and retract it, but I very much doubt he will do so.
Comment 212:
If you have some holy hands available, yes.
Comment 224:
How appropriate for people who believe in the divine inspiration of:
(Never mind that Paul contradicts the synoptic gospels here, though…)
So the book that is the only piece of evidence extant that God and Christ even exist(ed), doesn’t tell you anything about your religion?
Astonishing. So why not just ignore it? You could then clear your brain of silly thoughts, and access what some of us like to call reality.
All this fuss over . . . a cracker.
Sturm and drang over a farkin peice of flour & water.
I’m stunned. Absolutely stunned.
Today, I sent via snail mail the following letter to
the president of the University of Minnesota:
Dear President Bruininks:
I write to you in complete support of Dr. P.Z. Myers in his current conflict with the Catholic League.
This current controversy is really about free speech. Dr.Myers must be supported by those whovalue the very core of what the academy and the university most need: honest opinions expressed openly by all who participate in open discourse.
Support for Dr. Myers in this context is support for all who value our inherent freedoms and rights so eloquently expressed in the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
Dr. Myers didn’t threaten anyone, and he didn’t question anyone’s rights to express themselves. He merely expressed his opinions, as he often does on his blog, of the irrationality and vacuity of religion.
Everyone has the absolute right to criticize what he says and/or how he says it. Nobody has the right to silence or
censure him.
Sincerely,
(signed with proper name and address)
I counted two death threats before I gave up reading your emails. The sense of perspective is astounding. That you would even ASK to desecrate a wafer, an inanimate object which is freely distributed, merits threats of death? Honestly?
Oh man. I started cracking up at the comment about you getting “jihaded.”
What does that even MEAN?
Sorry you’ve had to put up with this BS.
One of the Cathars’ arguments against Catholicism was that to provide crackers for all the faithful through a millennium and change, Christ’s body would have had to be as big as a mountain.
(Now, it would be unfair to conclude the Cathars were rationalists. Much like Catholics, they were happy to invoke rationalism when it suited their purposes and abandon it when not.)
Very tiresome, indeed. Didn’t make it past the 10th mail or so. My irony meter didn’t survive this assault.
It might have been mentioned already somewhere in the myriads of comments posted here. We must be grateful for the separation of church and state and do everything to keep it intact. This provides a glimpse into what will happen if this boundary is swept away. The inquisition will come back with a vengeance. I am not saying that all religious people will welcome it but they will tacitly agree out of fear to be next. It appears to be inherent in almost all religions (and this was obvious since a long time, well before 9/11 and its aftermath brought it out into broad daylight.)
Just another heathen @ #1099
“Isn’t there some sort of twelve step program for Catholics?”
Given that the regular 12 step program requires you to surrender to a higher force, I don’t think this would be advisable. If you wanted to turn it on it’s head (what with drunkards supposed to give in to god), you could say that a recovering catholic has to surrender to booze.
But I think that would just create a loop.
I sent a letter to the President’s office in support of you, PZ. I hope that it gets read, I made it quite clear that the Theocrats can’t have it both ways, they can’t disparage other’s religion and not expect it to return to them. Freedom of Speech being the center piece of my letter to the President of UMM. Thanks for getting Billy’s blood pressure up again.
Michael
Professor Myers,
It is sad to watch such a shift towards fundamentalism in the country where democratic republic was born. If reason and science lead some educated citizens to abandon their faith, religions appear to seduce a greater number of individuals who place their beliefs above the values of modern nations. I was raised by a catholic family. At those times, no matter how many “crackers” someone would eat, this would have no significance in the abscence of faith. I see no difference between eating an Eucharist without faith and walking away from a church without eating it. However, I am not a believer anymore…
Ok, this has been bothering me:
Why is the host supposed to bleed if you desecrate it? I mean, the blood of Christ is already a separate entity, right? It just seems kind of redundant to me.
Etha! Welcome back. :)
Rev. BigDumbChimp – you may not be getting very far with Jenn – but man, all that luuuuv – it’s starting to get to me. I just may see the light.
I don’t know all the details, as I’m not terribly interested… But plans to desecrate a holy wafer sounds like a high school prank. You know, something a bunch of goth brats would do while proclaiming themselves to be too cool for god, or witches, or whatever.
And for the record, I’m a recovering Catholic who abhores organized religion. I don’t find the idea offensive at all, just stupid. Come on now, can’t you think of something better to do with your time?
Michelle @ #1227
“I don’t know all the details, as I’m not terribly interested… ”
There were no “plans” but a biting commentary on some hysterical death-threats aimed an innocently curious college student… followed by more hysteria. You may want to inform yourself of the situation before passing judgment.
The “death threats” are lies fabricated by Cook and Myers.
Not sure if I can get my devout Catholic theologian mom to post here, but she considers the Catholic League “ultraconservative fundamentalist crackpots.” Her answer to #100something
“Consider the following scenario:
You’re in a small room:
1) in one corner a man has an eight year old girl hostage and holds a knife to her throat
2) in the other corner another man has a blessed cracker and is threatening to crush it with a hammer
You only have 5 seconds to react; you can choose to save ONLY ONE – the girl or the cracker”
was indeed, the girl, without hesitation. The explanation being that, similar to what other commenters have asked, Jesus is stronger than a guy with a hammer. He already gave up his life, and he would want the girl saved.
As much as I hate to defend Catholicism or any religion, I respect my parents, who manage to be Catholic yet otherwise very intelligent (and my dad, a scientist, a CFI member and a Gould fan.) They admit that I put up a good debate, though. ^_^
Hmmmm . . . all this uproar over bread, huh?
It makes me sick how upset some catholics are getting over a small piece of bread all the while claiming total ignorance of their religions oppression of women.
So the way I figure it the hierarchy is as follows God > Jesus > Man > Bread > Wine . . . Woman, and I suppose altar boys come last. They really tend to get shafted, don’t they.
Sure, I can see how a piece of bread deserves all of this attention.
#1213
I want to know whether or not they believe that Christ would actually be harmed if his cracker form is destroyed. Would any Catholic be harmed in any way? How? I suspect it’s just a tired old ritual that they don’t believe in any more than atheists do – they just don’t want anyone to talk about it.
I see your point here – although a dog from PETA would involve some actual investment of time and money on their behalf – not just muttering of some words over a 2-cent wafer.
Or they might be afraid that exposition of their silly ritual might threaten their organization and its traditions.
Strakh: “PhilVaz!”
Who, me?
Strakh: “Yes, YOU! There is NO god, there was NO jesus, and there is NO SUCH THING as crackers turning into the flesh of a god when a perverted, filthy old pederast uses the same mouth he just violated an innocent boy with to say secret, arcane words over it…And quoting the words of some other batshit crazy fucktards from recent or ancient history doesn’t prove shit. All it demonstrates is that you are well versed with shit that supports your insanity and NOTHING ELSE! You have been given way too many chances here, you batshit crazy fucktard, and now it’s time to PUT UP OR SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!”
What was that? I didn’t quite get what you are saying.
Take it to Catholic Answers forums.
I won’t debate you here. Too crowded, and I don’t like the format.
http://forums.catholic.com/
Go to Apologetics forum, and type “Challenge to PhilVaz” as a subject heading or something similar and perhaps I will respond. But you’ll have to word your challenge in a less obscene manner. Hee hee. I’ve already explained my position and defense of the Eucharist quite completely in here. I would just be repeating myself. But at CA Forums there we can have an extended conversation in a polite and respectful manner. And maybe get into other issues. Anything you want as long as you are polite and respectful, just as P.Z. Myers is in “real life” and unlike this fake and phony persona he creates on his blog.
And at CA Forums you can choose the “styleid” = CA Blue (see bottom left of board) if you want a nice screen format over there. The default is orange ugly and scrunched. Thanks. That basically goes for anyone over here. See you at CA Forums.
======================================
Angry man: WHADDAYOU WANT?
Man: Well, Well, I was told outside that…
Angry man: DON’T GIVE ME THAT, YOU SNOTTY-FACED EVIL PAN OF DROPPINGS!
Man: What?
A: SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT! YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE! YOU VACUOUS
STUFFY-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!!!
M: Yes, but I came here for an argument!!
A: OH! Oh! I’m sorry! This is abuse!
M: Oh! Oh I see!
A: Aha! No, you want room 12A, next door.
======================================
Ok, so several of those notes are perfectly reasonable expressions of disagreement.
But a totally shocking percentage seem to be obsessed with imaginary millitant muslims.
I find that as disturbing as any of it.
Wow, what anger! Why can’t they direct all that energy at something useful like keeping religion out of science classes? And none of them appear to have read the controversy that started it all.
In before thread closing.
Hmmm… whether or not I think that someone’s religious beliefs are a bit whacked, I generally try to act out of common courtesy and respect in regards to their beliefs. If something is truly sacred to someone, then I wouldn’t mess with it just to rile them up. It seems pointless… and it would also lower me to their level, because people like that do stuff to piss off other people all the time.
I was raised Catholic, and I understand why they got a bit upset over this. I think it’s kinda excessive and extreme (even when I was still part of the church as a kid, I saw the SYMBOLISM in the Eucharist, but I didn’t buy into that “transmutation” stuff), but I understand why they’re upset.
However, I can’t understand any basis for the extreme nature of their collective reaction, even based on “Catholic logic”. Violence and hatred SHOULD be the worst thing you can enact on another person, and stealing a piece of bread isn’t remotely worth threatening violence against that person. And then, the kid hadn’t really don’t anything overboard. He wasn’t posting bizarre pictures of the wafer on the internet or making strange threats. He just HAD it. Unbelievable.
Even their own Bible says that it’s not what goes into a person that defiles him, but what comes out. Likewise, I don’t see any way that what you eat could make you holy or give you salvation… especially not a wafer that tastes like stale styrofoam. However, what’s “coming out” of the vociferously malicious Catholics should certainly be enough to defile them. Threats of violence and murder against this college kid? Good grief.
Also, why the hell are student fees and tax dollars going to fund a church on a PUBLIC university campus? If the Catholics on campus want a church, they can fund it with a weekly collection plate and donations just like any other church. As far as I’m concerned, that kid’s student fees bought that stupid little wafer, and he’s entitled to examine it if he wants to.
I also feel like mentioning that I left the church for many reasons, and sh*t like this is part of it. The discrimination against women, the complete lack of common sense and logic, and the distrust of free thought had a lot to do with it. I’m a Biologist myself… I think the natural world holds a lot more answers than a bunch of ancient tribal stories. I’ll still respect people’s right to believe what they want, and if clinging to ancient tribal stories makes them feel better, then that’s fine, as long as they keep their fairy tales out of my laboratory, my government, and my life.
And finally… it’s not a cracker. Crackers are, at least, somewhat tasty. The Kashi brand “Tasty Little Crackers” are excellent. Even Wheat Thins are delightful. Eucharist wafers taste like stale styrofoam, as I said. Not worthy of the title “cracker”.
After all the failed apologetics (better known as much circular reasoning on key issues) posted by Phil, and the tangential references to biblical archeology posted by Moses and others, it would seem fitting to include a couple of links to Hector Avalos. Also included for those who are unfamiliar with professors of theology that actually HAVE seriously looked at the relevant issues of archaeological evidence for the last 30 years.
Hector Avalos: How Archaeology Killed Biblical History:
part 1:
http://mnatheists.org/component/option,com_seyret/Itemid,65/
part 2:
http://mnatheists.org/component/option,com_seyret/task,videodirectlink/Itemid,61/id,17/
enjoy.
oops, part 1 link should be this, instead:
http://mnatheists.org/component/option,com_seyret/task,videodirectlink/Itemid,61/id,16/
It’s available on youtube and AOL videos, as well.
It seems pointless…
then, you either didn’t look very closely, or don’t see very clearly.
Threats of violence and murder against this college kid? Good grief.
Also, why the hell are student fees and tax dollars going to fund a church on a PUBLIC university campus?
I also feel like mentioning that I left the church for many reasons, and sh*t like this is part of it.
my apologies, apparently you did see the point, even if you stated otherwise.
I’m sure you understand why I was confused.
Liar liar pants on fire? The supposed “death threats” to Cook and Myers are fabricated LIES!
Liar liar pants on fire?
*squeeel* we’ve regressed to second grade!
what’s this mean, Jenn:
IKYABWAI
?
“Jungle” is such a woody word, don’t you think?
Stupid fish man?
Stupid fish man?
yes, insane Jungle girl?
oh, you mean you thought that’s what IKYABWAI stood for.
man, thought all graduates of second grade knew what that meant.
*shrug*
are you capable of using google?
are you off your meds tonight?
“Liar liar pants on fire?”
You don’t know the half of it, dear mistress…
How about this, fish man – IKYAASFMR?
Jenn, why do you torment me with your lack of favor? Strike, dear mistress, and cure my heart!
…
I have spoken out of turn, I am sorry. I shall crawl back to the filth now…
RE#1233:
How unoriginal you are! YOU entered this forum, YOU defecated HUGE turds of insanity attempting to defend the indefensible, and when you are addressed DIRECTLY and given the chance to PROVE your claim, you prissily whine “You’re so meeeeeeean! I’m not gonna play anymore! I’m changing the rules! You gotta do it MY way!”
Unoriginal, as well as childish. So many yellow-bellied cowards like yourself have done the exact same thing so many times over the years the dodge has become a classic.
It is, however, PhilVaz, bullshit. PUT UP OR SHUT THE FUCK UP, HERE, not somewhere else. YOU came HERE, YOU finish what you started HERE or SHUT THE FUCK UP.
You don’t change the rules, you don’t run to another place and say, let’s do it here, YOU came HERE, YOU finish it HERE. Simple enough for you?
Physical tests that can be performed by any reputable scientist, PhilVaz, that PROVE your little cracker became the living flesh of a living god. Either produce it or SHUT THE FUCK UP.
Because until you do, it’s just another batshit crazy fucktard claim, just like saying you have over 300 trillion pink unicorns up your butt. Just as stupid, just as pointless, and just as ridiculous.
Quit your whining and pony up.
NOW!
Rey Fox – Y?SSTBDRGN.
I have spoken out of turn, I am sorry. I shall crawl back to the filth now…
step ahead!
“her” second grade insults have cut me to the quick.
Hey guys, did you notice a certain… theme… about our Jenn? Check this out:
To quote ERV: AAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
Strakh: “Physical tests that can be performed by any reputable scientist, PhilVaz, that PROVE your little cracker became the living flesh of a living god. Either produce it or SHUT THE FUCK UP.”
Physical tests performed by scientists is not why the Catholic Church believes the bread/wine become the body/blood of Christ. It is a unanimous teaching on this Christian doctrine, passed on from Christ, to his apostles, through the early Fathers and the entire history of Christianity in its Mass and Liturgies. It is basically a truth of divine revelation. It is not a scientifically testable thing.
However, there are the Eucharistic miracles, but as I said, I am not an expert in those. But we can explore those at CA Forums if you like. Those would be at least scientifically “debunkable.”
CA Forums are here http://forums.catholic.com
Phil P
…btw:
I shall crawl back to the filth now…
I think you need to use the word “dregs” in order to impress Jenn.
as in:
“…crawl back into the dregs…”
dregs is woody, and “filth”, well, that’s kinda tinny, see?
It is a unanimous teaching
better known as cult indoctrination.
enough with the spamming, Phil, you’ve got enough ads up at this point.
seriously, nobody gives a rat’s ass about your hobby.
It IS a hobby, right? you don’t actually expect to make a living as an apologist, right?
Jenn, why do you torment me with your lack of favor? Strike, dear mistress, and cure my heart!
Careful, or you’ll sound much too modern and feminized for our Jenn. Try putting a little more H. Rider Haggard into it. Or possibly Mandingo.
Ich: “It IS a hobby, right? you don’t actually expect to make a living as an apologist, right?”
I don’t, but Catholic Answers and a few others are able to make enough to do it full-time. I’ve done this as a hobby, since about 1994 online, starting with FidoNet. Yep been at this a long time. But I am more used to debating with fundamentalists and evangelicals who already accept the God and Bible thing. In here and at Internet Infidels it’s a longer haul as I’ve mentioned.
I only posted in this thread because I have studied a lot on this particular topic (history of the Eucharist) and saw an opportunity to post a couple notes on P.Z.’s blog which I do read every now and then. I find it very entertaining and informative, and especially weird why P.Z. puts on this fake and phony persona how he supposedly hates religion so much, when in “real life” he is a completely different, polite and respectful, person. I find that very strange. Although most people are like that online I guess, they present a different personality.
I read the P.Z. blog, sometimes Dembski’s blog (but was kicked out of there the end of 2006 hee hee), and Panda’s Thumb, and other creation-evolution ones they link to. Most of the time I’ll be at the CA Forums (they only started back in 2004, but are pushing 100,000 members which is nice).
You know this will probably be the only thread I’ll ever post in P.Z.’s blog (I think I’ve averaged less than 1 post a year in here), and then you won’t see me for another 7 months or years, so what’s the big deal? Aren’t you glad to see someone like me every once in a while? Hee hee.
Phil P
There seems to be a lot of people who want to see the Koran desecrated. Bring on the fatwas!!
RE#1253:
Exactly!
You believe shit, get pissed when we make fun of your stupid shit beliefs, then go all postal on a college kid. Guess it’s better than trying to bang him like so many priests love to do, but still…
Go home. Stupid shit beliefs are stupid shit beliefs. They, nor you, deserve ANY respect. No evidence, no proof, just stupid shit, like the piss-drinkers of India, the Peyote smokers of southwestern America, and the child-rapists of the Mormons. And you wonder why reasonable people laugh at you.
You’re pathetic.
You had your chance, you blew it, just like all the pathetic, batshit crazy fucktards that have preceeded you.
Why am I not surprised?
Aren’t you glad to see someone like me every once in a while?
well, phil, if you had used that “incisive” mind of yours, you might have had a thought pop in there to the effect of:
“Hmm, I don’t often post on this blog, so maybe regulars see religious apologists on a frequent basis?”
and you’d be right.
if, of course, you could have managed to have such a thought.
perish the thought.
Okay, I think poor Jenn is having a complete dissociative episode now. I am no longer turned on.
“Try putting a little more H. Rider Haggard into it. Or possibly Mandingo.”
Lou Reed isn’t good enough? Oh well. I should be in bed anyway.
I’m still trying to find out why the removal of the Eucharist from a church (when it’s not been swallowed) is such a crime.
I’ve prayed to the FSM for guidance but his noodliness won’t respond.
@1234 becca – “…But a totally shocking percentage seem to be obsessed with imaginary militant muslims.
I find that as disturbing as any of it.”
Looking through the hate mail again I see only one brief mention of the possiblility of desecrating the Torah, compared to the countless challenges to deface the Koran.
@ichthyic
Hobby is a nice woody word, but Eucharist I don’t like. It’s too tinny.
What can I say? Christians say they are loving and tolerant, but we do see their real face every day, and not just in incidents like this. What I deem religions to be, is hypocritical, and hateful towards anyone who disagrees, doesn’t see their point of view, and they shout “offense”, “blasphemy”, etc. every time they see their beliefs dismantled by reason, logic, and science.
@Catholics: it’s a cracker! I have tasted it (though I have been baptized orthodox, and now I am atheist) and it tastes like a wafer! And not a very good one at that.
There is evidence of God all around in the beauty of the natural world which is a reflection of Him.
EPIC FAIL KENNY!
You need to do better than that or I’m going to send one of my evil spirits to steal your soul.
BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
I get a hoot out of stuff like this: “I believe that the “frackin’ cracker”, as you so cleverly referred to the Sacred Host, is the Body of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ consecrated by a priest at Mass under the appearance of a wafer of unleavened bread. This is my faith and that of millions of other orthodox Catholics. You have offended us grievously.”
They just do nor seem to understand that gullibility, irrationality, willful ignorance, self-deception, self-delusion, intellectual dishonesty, lies, hypocrisy and toxic, drooling stupidity are grievously offensive to sane, rational people… ESPECIALLY when they are all packaged neatly together, as they are in religion.
That said, though… we should be duly grateful that we HAVE religion, because that gives us a way to confront all of those dubious ‘qualities’, and to expose them and ridicule them, with great efficiency. The Abrahamic death-cults of desert monotheism… particularly the christ-cult… are especially useful in that regard.
Uh, RevBDC, having some idea where MAJeff, OM is coming from, would it not be a Red Velvet Mafia cake?
Lavender velvet mafia cake.
C’mon, it’s not enough that I’m Satan. I’m a fag, too. Gotta get Nazinger on my ass guys! Deprive me of rights! Send me to Hell! Be a good Christian!
#1265
That is an unhelpful generalisation. Most people are decent, and most people are religious. The reaction to Cook and PZ had been outrageous, but it does not mean we are seeing “the real face of Christians”. What we are seeing is some unpleasant nutters use religion as an excuse to be nutty and unpleasant. That is what is wrong with religion – it empowers people to act like that and to consider it praiseworthy.
Also, I am afraid that just saying “it’s a cracker” isn’t exactly going to change minds, it is? If we want to change minds, we are going to have to do better than that!
I don’t know all the details, as I’m not terribly interested… But plans to desecrate a holy wafer sounds like a high school prank. You know, something a bunch of goth brats would do while proclaiming themselves to be too cool for god, or witches, or whatever.
Translation: I’m too fucking lazy to pay attention, but I’m going to be an asshole about it anyway.
Liar liar pants on fire? The supposed “death threats” to Cook and Myers are fabricated LIES!
evidence Kenntard. I know you have trouble producing it. But put up or shut the fuck up.
Or bring back more NDEs for us to laugh at.
Try putting a little more H. Rider Haggard into it.
Don’t you mean C. Meth Haggard?
I’m somewhat new here. What’s “NDE”?
I’m somewhat new here. What’s “NDE”?
Near Death Experience.
We’ve had an spectacularly stupid troll who keeps going on and on and on and on about how NDEs are scientific proof of god, but who just can’t deal with scientific explanations for those same phenomena.
It also continually repeats nonsense like “the evidence is reality but you are willfully blind and won’t see it.”
Kenny is the NDE troll=Jenn
Now, back to cooking up some Satancakes (pancakes but hotter) for breakfast.
With your minds weakened by corruption and interested only in riducule you are unable to grasp the magnificence of the Catholic faith in its fullness, beauty and glory.
I’m going to Mass now, where, when I consume the Host, I will ask God to put obstacles in your path, so that one day you will know Him. Many of you will not understand what “obstacles in your path” means, so I won’t explain.
SPECTACULARLY stupid.
Steve Zara in #1269 states:
Perhaps you are right, but I think this is quite revealing about the ability of this relgion to disseminate morality.
Do you think that the people making death threats and such-like are devout Catholics or not?
It seems to me that if they weren’t then PZ Meyers’ comments would have hardly bothered them that much. If we are talking about generally unpleasant people that just do this kind of thing anyway then perhaps Prof. Myers should be handing these letters to the FBI.
It does seem to be more than just unpleasant dispositions at work here. These people are acting in response to a call to arms in Ayatollah Donahue’s fatwa against Prof. Myers are they not? This strikes me as being symptomatic of the way that Catholics are being encouraged to think, not merely unhinged individuals acting on their independently derrived philosophy.
Jenn in #1275 states:
Obviously threats of death and violence from your bretherin against those who satirize riddiculous practices are not something you a prepared to condemn. Far greater is the crime of riddiculing Catholicism for such childish and inhumane behaviour. Oh yes this this the glory of the Catholic faith. I think I’ll remain a moral free heathen, it would seem I am far less likely to do anyone harm that way.
Jenn at #1275, have a nice time at mass. If you see the holy ghost remind him he promised to do halloween at my house this year and he promised to bring spray cheese.
Pax Nabisco
Come on Jenn, let us see the moral backbone of a Catholic. I shouldn’t have to do this, as any decent human being would do it anyway, but here goes; I invite you to condemn your bretherin here in public for their threats of violence and death.
Have you got it in you to be a decent human being or are you just a Catholic?
I have always wanted to write a blog to exchange ideas with other people, then I read the comments you get on a mildly provocative note and see how morrons seem to be everywhere, rising like zoombies from the fresh ground of an old graveyard and wonder What the hell!
Kids chewing on the stuff… “Nice” would Borat say. But after reading all this mail, I hope the University will take action and import stones of the right size from Saudi Arabia to insure proper punishment. If only because you can’t be doing your job with such a full in-box.
Good luck with the bigot.
Do you think that the people making death threats and such-like are devout Catholics or not?
I suspect they are. One of the dangerous things about religion is how it allows people to come up with their own morality, and then call it God-given. This can bypass conscience and reason. But, this also means that even though the death-threat-people are probably devout catholics, so are the majority of Catholics who are decent people (who think that their decency comes from God)
Steve Zara states in #1282
Probably true, but is it not also the case that the Bible itself encourages a mentality consistent with such behaviour? There are many passages advocating violence (amongst other things).
What I am getting at is that some people that would otherwise be non-violent are pretty much exalted to be violent and unreasonable by the Bible. Christianity is supposed to be based on using the Biblical Jesus as a morally exemplary figure as a shining example of how to behave. However even in the extremely moderately christian UK, vicars seem to leave out the point that people really shoudn’t behave as the Old Testament would have it, and they still cite the Bible as a whole as their ‘good book’. They don’t even teach that the Old Testament is mythical in its content. Now transpose this absence of reason or sensible guidance onto poorly educated and probably low IQ folk. Would should we expect to see as a result in such an experiment? I submit to you that the experiment has and is being conducted and the evidence of its results are right here on this board in the words of people like Jenn.
Some more (possibly useless) reflections :
– What are the fundagelicals thinking about all this ? To them, transsubstantiation is a crazy doctrine, an error, perhaps even devil-inspired (I supposed that’s what Jack Chick would say). So they shouldn’t care about a wafer. But on the principle, they should support fanatics of all kinds. So ?
– Perhaps I’m not a good reference concerning the New Testament. But I can’t find the place where Jesus says : “You will love my holy wafers more than your neighbor”. Can someone give me the verse number ?
– By the way, Jesus himself still hasn’t reacted concerning the theft of one of his body parts. Do you think he will?
And my personal conclusion on the whole matter:
I can’t think of any meaning of the word “sane” for which a sane person would value a religious item more than human life.
Offensive on so many levels… lol.
Have you considered considering taking this into consideration yet PZ?
All these histronics over a frackin’ cracker show why religion should be a hobby such as knitting.
So, Kenny, have a good time with your cannibalism?
Did you carry through and wish for us to all suffer, oh good and loving idiot?
Probably true, but is it not also the case that the Bible itself encourages a mentality consistent with such behaviour?
Since when have Christians followed the bible? :)
What I am getting at is that some people that would otherwise be non-violent are pretty much exalted to be violent and unreasonable by the Bible.
I think you are wrong. At least I hope you are wrong.
I think it works like this: people who have a tendency to be violent, or a tendency to threats of violence, are encouraged in this by religious views. Find the right religion, or the right passages from the bible, and you can think that being wicked is virtuous.
I don’t think that religion encourages decent people to be nasty. I think it provides cover for unpleasant people to be nasty and to consider themselves virtuous. Because religion has respect, we can’t ask these nasty people to justify themselves.
Oh, and by the way…
I know several Catholics, or people who consider themselves good Catholics, who don’t believe that the wafer actually becomes the body of Jesus during mass. They consider this idea too crazy, I guess. They view the communion wafer as a symbol. I know: it actually makes them heretics. I suggest the Catholic church takes a survey to know what its flock really think about the main doctrinal points…
I suggest the Catholic church takes a survey to know what its flock really think about the main doctrinal points…
this is a problem of an ancient institution trying to rule in the contemporary world. We secularists–and hell even some Catholics, see Voices of the Faithful–and a lot of Protestant denominations value the conscience of the individual, and indeed the laity play a role in making decisions as to how “the word” should be interpreted, who should lead the organization. The laity have none of that power in the RCC. It is a completely top-down institution. It’s an institutional church, and the opinions of the flock are meaningless, as their role is to “pay, pray, and obey.”
That’s not to excuse the authoritarian idiocy, but no survey will be forthcoming because the laity’s opinions are quite simply irrelevant.
Not going to happen.
Shortly after the Vatican II Council, there was a papal commission, which included married couples, established to consider contraception. The commission’s report said that that artificial birth control was not intrinsically evil and that Catholic couples should be allowed to decide for themselves about the methods to be employed.
Four commission members issued a minority report saying that birth control was against the word of God. Archbishop Karol Wojtyła, later Pope John Paul II, also argued against the majority report and, in a letter to Paul VI, said that accepting the report would undermine Paul’s authority as Pope.
In the infamous encyclical Humanae Vitae, Paul rejected the commission’s recommendations. One reason that Paul gave was that the commission’s report was not unanimous, since six members out of 72 disagreed with the majority.
The Catholic Church operates on the “one man-one vote” system. The Pope’s the man and he gets the vote.* What the rest of the church, particularly the laity believes, is inconsequential.
*A line shamelessly paraphrased from Terry Pratchett.
Today’s Gospel Reading at Mass clearly meant YOU PEOPLE!!
“You shall indeed hear, but not understand.
And seeing you shall see, but not perceive.
Gross is the heart of this people;
With their ears they have been dull of hearing,
And their eyes they have shut:
Lest at any time they should see with their eyes
And hear with their ears and understand with their heart
And be converted and I heal them”
In other words, with corrupted minds you willfully do not WANT to understand. Even a small child, innocent of mind, is wiser than all of you together.
Have a GREAT day verbally ripping me to shreds!! Enjoy!
Jenn
so, kenny, did you enjoy fantasizing about us while talking to yourself and eating a cracker?
Reposted:
Come on Jenn, let us see the moral backbone of a Catholic. I shouldn’t have to do this, as any decent human being would do it anyway, but here goes; I invite you to condemn your bretherin here in public for their threats of violence and death.
Have you got it in you to be a decent human being or are you just a Catholic?
Steve Zara writes in #1288:
Again I don’t disagree, but I am saying that the Bible must have influence on the way people think. The religious certainly seem to think so otherwise they would not be so ardent in promoting it as a moral guide.
Look at the high proportion of muslims martyrs. Are you seriously suggesting that these people would just go out and commit atrocities regardless of the teachings of the Koran or any particular interpretation of it? I don’t think that that is a reasonable assumption.
The rates of violent crime are far higher in extreme religious states than anywhere else. For what you are suggesting to be true, that prediposition alone is at work, then that would suggest that there is a genetic component to the problem.
In contradiction to this we see that 2nd and 3rd generation muslims whose ancesters have moved to more moderate climes like the UK are far more reasonable and less violent. This really suggests that it is not predisposition at work but culture. Culture embedded in religious books in the muslims case, and I sumbit that the same is true of followers of the bible to some extent. This really doesn’t seem like an unreasonable proposition to me.
“Have a GREAT day verbally ripping me to shreds!!”
Wait, now you want to play the Sub? I’m confused.
I don’t think Jenn is Kenny at all. Kenny is far too self-aggrandizing to want to pretend to be someone else for the purpose of flinging even more unhinged statements than usual at us.
Not quite. Our minds are not corrupted. We don’t need a 2,000 year old book or a man in a dress to tell us what to believe. Furthermore, we do understand. We understand what you believe, we consider it on its merits, and find that if the consequences weren’t so serious, it would be silly.
Mythology is an interesting study. So is crowd psychology. I’ve read a book or two on social motivation, absolutely fascinating. All of these are useful in learning about religion.
No, Jenn, your complaint isn’t that we don’t understand. Your complaint is that we’ve considered your mass delusion (pun not intended) and rejected it.
Dear Catholics that don’t like being riddiculed,
I invite you to read the article Idiot America.
I hope this explains why you are being riddiculed sufficiently clearly for you to comprehend.
Well now, this is interesting. I usually don’t jump into these things, since I am convinced the Internet is breeding the same radicalism that those back alley papers in Europe did in the early 20th century. But, I couldn’t resist. As a former non-believer who became Christian (I realized that the non-believers weren’t any better than believers, so obviously abandoning religious faith doesn’t do anything – which allowed me to look at the truth of the issues at hand), I can say this is the problem I had with non-believers. Generally, with few exceptions, they treated their non-belief with a zeal that would shame a fundamentalist. Having contempt, loathing, and derision for others and their beliefs, they often hid rather cowardly behind some split hair of reasoning to try to convince people that they weren’t as intolerant, judgmental, and condescending in their views toward the same people they accused of the exact same things. Should we want Prof. Myers canned or dismissed? Of course not. Just like Fred Phelps is a dream come true for non-believers, an atheist version of Fred Phelps can only help the cause of people who believe. So all believers need to back down, show love, and wait. The outcome of actions like this can only help the way.
Apparently, we’re the equivalent of someone who wishes violence upon people, who intentionally provoke people to violence, and who enjoy AIDS and 9/11.
The delusions run deep with this one.
wow. catholics are funny. three cheers for the free world, where the most that pissed off nuts can do is spam someone’s university office…
Jenn @ 1130
Durh, of course. Both Satan and Yahweh are fictional. Pluto is the warden of the dead. Not a pair fictional entities created by desert nomads.
What is it with the theists whining about atheists being intolerant. Fr. J complained last night, in one of the most condescending, pompous utterances I’ve ever read, that atheists insult him while he’s just sweetness and light. Now this guy, Daffey, makes a similar gripe.
In my experience, there are three reactions when I say I’m an atheist: (1) Some people could care less. Often they are also atheists. (2) Some people attempt, with more or less success, to discuss my position dispassionately. (3) A large number of people try to convert me, usually to some flavor of Christianity.
I try to tell this third group that I would prefer not to be proselytized. Very occasionally my wish is honored and the subject changes. Much more often, the conversion attempts become even more strident. Plus, all too often, I get called immoral or I get compared to the arch-atheist Stalin or I’m told not to bother to pack an overcoat for the afterlife.
If the majority of theists weren’t judgemental, patronizing or hateful, I would probably be nicer discussing my beliefs or lack thereof. But when I’m told in no uncertain terms that I’m going to Hell because I’m as immoral as Stalin, I get a bit perturbed.
If you’re polite to me, I’ll be polite back. If you’re a jerk, I can be one too.
Come on Catholics, let us see the moral backbone of a Catholic. I shouldn’t have to do this, as any decent human being would do it anyway, but here goes; I invite you to condemn your bretherin here in public for their threats of violence and death.
Any takers?
Looks like the Catholics have been at it again:
“Sex abuse scandal in Autralia“
JoJo
If I may. The atheist excuse that ‘the theist made me do it’ doesn’t hold water to any thinking person. The problem is, in recent years, atheists have tried to push human failures as being a result of religious belief. But to do this, atheists have to show that they are, in fact, better behaved than theists. My experience, including as a non-believer, was the opposite of yours. When anything about God/religion was mentioned in the presence of a non-believer, even in passing, as often as not the non-believer in question would wade into the conversation like an invasion force at Normandy. Likewise, the talk about people of faith and their beliefs often were crude, disrespectful, and condescending at best. Again, I have no problem with that, since I don’t think religion is the cause of evil in the world. But for atheists to keep up that particular mantra, that it is religion that makes evil fanatics out of people, they had best stop pointing fingers and start showing by their deeds that their alternative is any better. They had best stop being as fanatics as the religious people they accuse. And given the recent turn by the new atheism, that doesn’t look promising in the least.
Again I don’t disagree, but I am saying that the Bible must have influence on the way people think. The religious certainly seem to think so otherwise they would not be so ardent in promoting it as a moral guide.
Look at the high proportion of muslims martyrs. Are you seriously suggesting that these people would just go out and commit atrocities regardless of the teachings of the Koran or any particular interpretation of it? I don’t think that that is a reasonable assumption.
Note how the religious only say that the Bible is a moral guide when it agrees with them.
I am not suggesting that some people would not go out and commit atrocities without religion. What I am saying is that religion prevents people from questioning.
I think that religion is thinking without a seat-belt. Not everyone is going to end up in a crash, but for those who do, they are going to suffer more.
I honestly don’t think that people do bad things because of the Bible. What they do is use the bible as a justification for doing bad things, and then calling those bad things virtuous. That is the danger of religion – people get to write their own political and moral agendas and delude even themselves into believing that that is God’s will.
Reading these debates with Catholics makes me feel dumber as I go along. Intermittently, I have to pick up my copy of The Road to Reality by Penrose and reread a few sections into order to regenerate some neurons. By the way, The Road to Reality describes an infinitely more accurate picture of the cosmos than the Bible.
Does this controversy help cast atheism and rationality in a better light or a worse one? I think the latter.
If the Soul exists, then the only sacrilege taking place here is religion in all its many glassy guises. Religion itself is cruise control for the mind and body.
You religious busybodies and bullies lean back in faux safety against the soft underbelly of you upturned God. Gathering like folds of fat around the waist of a wasted tramp in the evening of his existence.
Religion is the back-pedalling evil twin of social progress.
It’s not a matter of debating whether God exists. Eliminate the bloated cog.
A God should not exist.
daffey #1306
Why am I not surprised that you reject the possibility that atheists are sneered at by your bunch?
I see. You don’t believe that 9/11 was done by radical, fundamentalist Muslims. Nor do you accept that Daniel Pearl was killed by other Muslims. Ever hear about The Troubles in Northern Ireland? No, I guess not. And the little spat between Hamas and Israel is just two neighbors being grouchy at each other.
Not every problem in the world is the result of religion. But a whole lot of them are. Get your head out of the sand and look around. Just as an example, consider that Iran is a genuine theocracy run by real-life religious fanatics.
Indulge in hyperbole much? I don’t expect an honest to goodness theist to admit that he was lying, but in your heart you know that you were. Sure, you may know one or two atheists who are like this. But I would bet large amounts of money that the majority of atheists aren’t.
I realize that you’re just trying to justify the whining you tried to peddle before. I doubt you’ll get many takers here. The regulars here live in the real world and know how things really are.
But to do this, atheists have to show that they are, in fact, better behaved than theists.
posted by: “daffey”
who, evidently, forgot to leave the “e” out of their handle.
btw, did “Jenn” bring us back some limp biscuits from mass?
Today’s Gospel Reading at Mass clearly meant YOU PEOPLE!!
why, yes, yes it did.
Don’t these people understand that you’re planning on storing your defiled Eucharist in a space hollowed out in the middle of your KorBibRah. Not unlike the amazing TurDucken, the KorBibRah is a compilation of things that should never be attempted by mortal man. Where a TurDucken is a series of poultry cooked one with in the other, the KorBibRah is a sequence of holy books hollowed out and jammed, one within the next. What better to store a supply of suitably defiled Flesh of God?
What a bunch of bleating sheep (the Catholics).
The 2nd letter writer has it all wrong. I’ve worked in industry for 21 years and have yet to see a meritocracy. Asskisscracy is more like it.
To the person way upthread that wanted to know more about adoration:
One of the parishes I attended had a small side chapel that was always open. If you came in through the door, the altar was at the very back with the host in a gold cross holder in the middle. Pews were set up in front of the altar and you would pray the rosary or whatever. There were also prayer books available.
It’s great if you want a quiet place to read or collect your thoughts, but really boring otherwise. Personally I never got wrapped up in the cracker worship like some obviously do.
Lots of Catholic (and Christian) traditions are pagan in origin or even occultish ,but they do mental gymnastics in order to rationalize it as ‘truth’ and not that ‘bad’ stuff the other guys do.
btw, stupid fish man, I have a tank full of common minnows (zebrafish) that I’m gonna use as bait for bigger fish. The second tankfull will be poisoned in their water, and ALL the embryos will be smashed!!!
Does this controversy help cast atheism and rationality in a better light or a worse one?
As an individual who is also an atheist, I should care why?
…atheists have to show that they are, in fact, better behaved than theists….
Again, why the requirements? Has someone been elected grand poobah of all things Atheistic while my back was turned?
The second tankfull will be poisoned in their water, and ALL the embryos will be smashed!!!
spoken like a true death-cultist.
thanks for the demonstration.
please, do feel free to videotape it and put it up on youtube just to curse at me with.
the horror.
the horror.
#1319 – What about you and your friends who, in the above comments, talked about putting a baby on a spit and having a bar-be-que, then joked about what type of sauce to use? Atheists bring about the Kulture of Death itself.
Atheists bring about the Kulture of Death itself.
You mean we get you to reveal your true nature?
thanks for letting us know.
we’ve been working hard on it for decades now.
(in between coming up with new recipes for BBQ baby-back ribs)
Does this controversy help cast atheism and rationality in a better light or a worse one? I think the latter.
The recognition that atheism is rational and theism isn’t is welcome, but the notion of rationality being cast in a bad light is quite incoherent.
To call yourself a “Christian” we need to have some standard of belief. Who is Jesus, and who is God, for example. That is what the classic Creeds are for. The Bible alone is not enough since it doesn’t define what a “Christian” is to believe, nor is it enough what any individual thinks of “Christianity.”
My my. This cretin PhilVaz says his long term goal is to convert everyone here to Catholicism. Aside from the fact that that’s a sure path to the dungeon for Godbotting, his brain is apparently too filled with religious pus to grasp the fact that people here don’t believe things that they are “to” believe, that they employ a quite different process that has nothing to do with any “standard of belief”. This fool talks about Christians who are “deliberately rejecting their Church’s teaching and therefore being disobedient to their Church’s authority”, failing to grasp that people here aren’t obeyers and don’t give a flying fuck about any “authority” when it comes to beliefs. Any person or institution that sets out to enforce beliefs is committing a grave crime against humanity.
“I have tried to find an analogy to explain my request and this is the best I can do: you might be entirely right that a old rag is worthless and should be thrown out, yet, if that rag were a small child’s security blanket, I doubt you would do so, to spare the child’s feelings. I put myself in the place of that child, and ask: Please don’t.”
Indeed, and when that child is 30 and still has his blanket he has to live with the ridicule that he’ll get at every step he takes!
#1320 – s fish man – You know precisely what I mean. It’s exactly like satan to twist words. You and your Godless atheism bring about the Kulture of Death, hence your coldness and lack of humanity. Your coldness and lack of humanity fueled by your hatred of goodness are archtypical signs of evil at work in you.
You lie when you say you don’t believe in God, or a god. Satan is your god. Your hatred for religion, for goodness, your arrogance all stem from evil. However,
you will never admit any of it but only hide behind your atheist religion – and it IS a religion since satan is your god.
Pascal’s Wager might be something for you to contemplate, that is if your mind can comprehend a concept larger than minnows.
Pascal’s Wager might be something for you to contemplate – Jenn
Gosh, Jenn, you are the first Christian ever to bring that up on this blog! I’ll bet it results in hundreds of instant conversions. Indeed, I’m down on my knees praying for the Lord’s forgiveness even as I write!
/irony
@1326 Sorry: /irony -> /sarcasm
Jenn at #1325:
Pardon for breaking in on your thrashing, after all, Nick can obviously handle someone of your caliber while he sleeps, but:
Pascal’s Wager!!!!????
Are you really THAT stupid? Is that REALLY the BEST you can come up with? I have heard that hundreds of times and have shoved it right up the self-righteous assess of every idiot that muttered it.
Jenn, Jenn, Jenn, you ignorant slut (cue the applause for SNL and the Great Chevy Chase) if you want to play with the big dogs, stop pissing like a puppy, ok?
Toughen up, smarten up, and maybe, just maybe, you might not get your tiny little pinhead handed back to you every time you have your handlers type your responses…
Do these people not understand the concept of sarcasm?
Steve Zara (Comment #1288):
Not directly, perhaps, but commitment to any all-encompassing ideology (religious or otherwise) often makes it easier for one’s normal disposition towards decent behaviour to be overridden in the name of what the ideology proclaims to be the “greater good”. It’s certainly not a problem unique to religion, but many forms of religion remain cases in point.
Jenn (Comment #1325):
Which bit of it would you like us to contemplate? Its employment of the fallacy of false dilemma, or its cynical and dishonest appeal to self-interest?
“I’m afraid God will get the last laugh on this one. GOD IS NOT MOCKED”
And yet, this is consistently disproven.
I believe that many of the emails listed here fail to take into proper account the fact that Communion Wafers are given to members of the congregation. Once a person has been given a thing, no one (not the giver, nor anyone else, involved or not) has a right to demand that that person receiving the item do any specific thing to it (imbibe it, for example) or refrain from doing any thing (tear it into pieces, for instance).
Those who equate Professor Myers’ threats to desecrate a Communion Wafer to threatening to run over a person’s children (or to stealing and tearing up a Torah from a Synagogue) fail to address the fact that these wafers are given to members of the congregation to ingest. Presumably, children are not being offered up for the same purposes (nor, to my knowledge, are Jewish holy books–stealing them shouldn’t enter into the equation, as the Communion Wafers are not being stolen).
When a person is given something, that thing is now his or hers, and he or she is free to give it to another. Once it is out of a person’s hands… it is out of that person’s hands.
While it is certainly insensitive to tear up (or otherwise abuse) something that has been given as a gift, it seems that in some cases oversensitivity to the beliefs of others is wrong. If my beliefs mandate that I harm myself or others, for example, it is perfectly justifiable for another to be insensitive to them.
Professor Myers is being insensitive, yes. He knows it. He is being deliberately insensitive. You are perhaps well within your rights to be offended. But please remember: No person has the right to go through life demanding that no one offer him or her offence. Everyone takes umbrage with different things, some of which are found to be quite absurd by the great majority of the world. Personally, I don’t much care for profanity, but I make no attempt to prevent others from using it. You decide what offends you; no one else. As such, you have no right to make demands on others based on what you find offensive.
I prefer to eat my crackers. Perhaps Professor Myers likes to tear his into little pieces and stomp on them. Unless he is hurting someone (and unless it demonstrated in some rational manner–as opposed to simply asserting that transubstantiated flesh doesn’t mind being eaten, but doesn’t like being stepped on), it’s none of your business.
Posted by: Jenn | July 14, 2008 9:11 AM
That is some highly concentrated spiteful stupidity.
In response to #933:
The term “sandwichogyny” would refer to the concept of female sandwiches. The Greek root “gyn” means “female” (as in “gynecology”, literally the study of females, or “androgyny”, the concept of a thing that is both male and female). I believe that you might want to use the prefix of “misogyny”, which means “hate” (as in “misanthrope”, or “hateful person”), making “misandwichery” or “missandwichery” or some such thing. Best of luck!
Posted by: Jenn | July 14, 2008 9:11 AM
You can use blind wagering and the philosophical equivalence of hedging your bet to determine your worldview, but I – and I’m positive I’m not alone on this here – would rather use something more concrete and convincing…namely, evidence. If you intend to convince someone that their worldview is incorrect, Pascal’s Wager is quite an ineffective way to go about it.
“Please take a moment to read what Mr. Meyers [sic] has posted on his faculty page on your university’s website…”
I hope that someone reminds these folks that none of this was posted on Dr. Myers’ faculty page, nor is it even hosted on a UMM server.
Although there is a link to the Pharyngula weblog on his faculty page, trying to locate the specific article in question isn’t easy. It is, in fact, far easier to locate the article using Google, whose webcrawling bot not only links it to Pharyngula but also to the specific article in question. I don’t see anyone blaming Google for this…
Mmm, i grew tired of reading them.
They show in different values the same picture.
The cracker its more than just a cracker,
and if some group of people thinks otherwise
im obligated to do think the same, or at last
act as if care.
In fact, its disrespectufull, but anyway, who
cares ?. Its going to be a cracker forever
even if all the earth population believes it to
be the body of a god. Period.
Damn, had to quit reading after a few because my eyes started to cross and I was hearing faint chanting…
Why didn’t anyone threaten a comfy chair, eh?
Disappointed I am.
#1326-1338 – Pascal’s Wager: You weak-minded atheists will be in Hell by the time you figure out the concept of Pascal’s Wager. Oh well! Too late then.
However, since people CHOOSE Hell, you will be where you desire for all eternity. There will be no turning back; you will belong totally to Satan forever.
Many of these people are suggesting that Professor Myers is cowardly for not insulting Islam, Judaism, gays, and blacks (the latter two being falsely equated to the former, as following Muslim or Jewish doctrine is a matter of choice, while being black or being gay are not). This completely ignores the fact that Myers’ article is response to an event that took place in a Catholic church and the outrage that followed.
That Professor Myers made no statements about Islam or Judaism in this article has nothing to do with fear of practitioners of those religions; it instead speaks to the fact that the event to which he is responding had nothing to do with Muslims or Jews.
And we all know that Christians are perfectly capable of murdering others for the sake of their beliefs. Now please, let’s not be ridiculous.
#1326-1338 – Pascal’s Wager: You weak-minded atheists will be in Hell by the time you figure out the concept of Pascal’s Wager. Oh well! Too late then.
However, since people CHOOSE Hell, you will be where you desire for all eternity. There will be no turning back; you will belong totally to Satan forever.
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
“I understand that you accept, on Faith, the unproven Theory of Evolution. I haven’t made up my mind about it yet, as we haven’t quite found those pesky “missing links”–I like to keep an open mind about all theories until one is proven beyond all doubt.”
Is anyone else as sick of hearing about this as I am? First off, science isn’t in the business of proving anything. The scientific method is about gathering and evaluating empirical evidence and subjecting it rational, skeptical inquiry. Theories that don’t fit the evidence are thrown out or revised until they do, and new evidence is coming in all the time. Based on the sum total of evidence currently available, evolution by process of natural selection is the best explanation that we have for the diversity of the various species.
Professor Myers’ advocacy of the theory of evolution has nothing to do with faith and everything to do with evidence. I presume that the person cited here believes in the theory of gravity (another theory that hasn’t been “proven beyond all doubt”); however, I doubt that anyone would maintain that this person’s belief is motivated by faith.
If you’re going to go about your life calling yourself open-minded, you might want to examine evidence from both sides of the debate, rather than simply indulging the intellectually impoverished propaganda of your chosen side. Dozens of the so-called “missing links” have been found, between fish and amphibians, between amphibians and reptiles, between lower primates and humans, etc. Please, if you’re going to make an assertion, at least back yourself up! Otherwise you risk ending up sounding like Yomin Postelnik.
#1342 Ma Jeff – Little boy, you’re a troll. Are you in second grade? Off your meds tonight? Trying to get attention?
#1342 Ma Jeff – Little boy, you’re a troll. Are you in second grade? Off your meds tonight? Trying to get attention?
waiting for you to say something of substance.
You’re a hateful little monster, aren’t you.
#1345 – MAJeff – Not nearly as hateful as atheist cannibals who joke about bar-b-quing babies, having “baby-back ribs” and thinking up different sauces. That is as hateful as a person can get.
you’re very silly, Jenn, very silly.
You think that damning actual living people to eternal torture and wishing harm upon them is nothing, while dark humor is evidence of misanthropic evil.
Beyond being silly, you’re a very stupid person with no sense of proportion. Bad jokes are worse than wishing harm on humans, and hating other humans makes a better person than making fun of a cracker. What a sick world you live in.
Re: Jenn and Pascal’s Wager:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/arguments.html#pascal
I find many of their letters interesting as they show that they’re more guilty of what they accuse you of than you are yourself. I’m just gonna jot down a few random thoughts I had as I read some of the letters, some might be repeats of the comments above and there might also be some other things worth commenting on from the letters, but I have not yet taken the time to read all the letters and comments. Just take any repeated points as me seconding the first person statement.
First thing that really offended me is their lack of knowledge of other religions. I know several practicing satanists and there is no black mass ritual, nor anything in their religion using a cracker either blessed or not blessed.
As for the statements that the christian church is respected, I say that’s flat out wrong. It might be respected by those who drink the christian cool aid, but by and large the rest of us merely tolerate your existence.
2000 years, big whoop, my faith has artifacts that date back into prehistory and it’s still going despite christianity trying to systematically destroy it over several hundred years. No mythical evil tempter who only has power over men when it’s given to him tried to take us out, we had a real assault on us by real people using real weapons to attack the healers and peacemakers*, people who had sworn not to harm others. Ideas that the christian church in this day and age is at all peaceful, loving, or any of that other crap is a dirty lie as well. If it were true there wouldn’t be things like the day of remembrance to give a moment of silence for people killed in the name of the christian god for living a different life than what you accept. Even the churches roots are based on war and killing those of a different faith while destroying items sacred to them.
The whole flip-flop from all powerful god to completely helpless cause some priest put a bit of him into a cracker is also absurd. What this says to me is either god will do something to prevent PZ from doing anything to the cracker, or there’s something wrong with your god, something along the lines of him not being real or at least not having any actual power. Then again the whole all powerful, perfect, and singular god thing is the only different from the pagan religions you tried to wipe out. Being persecuted for believing, resurrection stories (especially ones that happen across 3 days), the idea of a holy trinity, your holidays, and etcetera are all things that have been done to death before your religion was ever founded. The sacrament (having food and drink for divine reasons) manages to be a little different, in that you’re consuming stuff that’s supposed to magically made into the flesh and blood of the divine instead of blessing the food and drink for consumption by the divine that is invoked into ones self, but that could just be from your general unwillingness to learn about other religions even as you steal their beliefs while killing them.
I’m sure there’s plenty of other points worth making, but I feel my brain being damaged by the letters so I’ll just call this list good.
*look into Druidity, and find the real story, not the lies propagated by the church to justify their actions and soothe their consciences after slaughtering villages of people who wouldn’t fight back.
#1347 – Ma Jeff- Are you actually that stupid? YOU damn YOUR OWN SELF to Hell. When YOU stand before Almighty God at the moment of YOUR death and see Him, YOU will more than likely choose Hell for YOURSELF because YOU hate God so much that YOU do not want to be with Him. It’s YOUR choice. It’s CLEAR that YOU hate God, don’t believe in Him, so, naturally YOU will choose what YOU love which is evil, and that is Satan and his Hell.
YOU might think it’ll be just like being on this blog – fabulously cute (YOU think) with evil jokes and words of hatred, vile epithets, ridicule. However, Satan, being the father of lies, has lied to YOU. Life in Hell is infinitely more evil than even this blog and YOU will suffer from YOUR OWN CHOICE. But, hey. Have a great time. YOU are a very stupid person with no sense of proportion when it comes to YOUR eternity.
YOU and the rest of the atheists are hypocrites. YOU can say ANYTHING to Catholics, but let a Catholic say anything to YOU and YOU get mad!! You only turn my words back on me because you can’t think of an intelligent response.
Happy Eternal Hell to YOU!
What a ridiculously stupid and hateful person you are Jenn, and what a monstrously hateful god you worship. What a pathetic monster you are.
Face it Jenn, you’re not a good human being. You value crackers over human lives.
#1349 – Are you really that weak-minded, Felstatstu? What strikes me most forcibly about paganism and witchcraft is that, if it weren’t so dangerous and evil, it would be so flaming SILLY.
Jenn, you certainly are the spitting image of the loving Christian. And when I say spitting, I mean as in venom.
Honestly. How can you possibly live with such hatred seething within you? Have you ever considered psychological counseling? It can be extraordinarily beneficial.
Oh, and I advise you to lay off the religious stuff. It’s turning you nasty.
so, Jenn, does the thought of people being tortured for eternity make you tingle “down there?”
Jenn, # 1353 wrote:
Okay, I’m calling Poe on Jenn. No-one could possibly be that stupid.
MAJeff (1355):
She did seem to launch into that “you’re going to hell” diatribe with a kind of orgasm gusto, no? Hmmm… perhaps that’s worth exploring. The sado-masochistic aspects of hardcore Christianity. Passion plays, and all…
She did seem to launch into that “you’re going to hell” diatribe with a kind of orgasm gusto, no? Hmmm… perhaps that’s worth exploring. The sado-masochistic aspects of hardcore Christianity. Passion plays, and all…
Hell, the ecstasy of the stigmata–sexual pleasure and torture wounds. There’s a real erotic fetishization of pain and suffering, and causing it.
#1351-2 MaJeff – God is a loving God; He gave you the gift of Free Will. What are YOU doing with it? Choosing an empty and meaningless life – filled with pornography? Hate? Arrogance? The opposite would be purity, love, humility. Are they in your life anywhere?
Hell, the ecstasy of the stigmata–sexual pleasure and torture wounds.
I am amazed at how so many Christians find any kind of sexual expression depraved, yet always describe their own or others’ mutilation in service to their God in the same words that a lousy romance writer describes the encounter between a randy wench and a strapping privateer. Pornographic piety is just too… weird.
Posted by: Jenn | July 14, 2008 10:12 PM
Actually, its argumentation following the path of least resistance. If there were much logical and reasoned substance to your comments, it would make the rest of us have to actually analyze them and counter the good points. As it stands, your words themselves are unfounded and based on irrational and supernatural premises, so no extra work needs to be done.
Thanks! And happy godbotting to you…
God is a loving God;
such a good little lie
getting all tingly, Jenn? Feeling guilty about it? Need to go beat yourself up to get off? go with it girl!
I stand by my call of Poe. She’s calling someone else’s religious belief silly.
Hate?
Jenn, who is getting off on the idea of other people suffering? It’s not me.
Who is praying to their imaginary friend to make other people’s lives worse? Not be.
Who’s valuing a cracker over human lives? Not me.
Who’s demonstrating the characteristics of hate in these comments? that would be you.
is your breathing getting a little heavier, your hand moving to those forbidden regions, as you imagine God causing more and more pain to those you despise?
I stand by my call of Poe. She’s calling someone else’s religious belief silly.
That’s not an indication of Poe, but a very common and standard response from many religious people.
She may be Poe, but it’s not because she’s more stupid than many, many believers. Kenny comes to mind. She may be an angrier Kenny sockpuppet. She may be a Poe. She may be a truly hateful little monster.
She’s a fun chew toy for the moment, though.
is your breathing getting a little heavier, your hand moving to those forbidden regions, as you imagine God causing more and more pain to those you despise?
Holy shit! It’s Nurse Diesel from High Anxiety – and she’s wearing a leather nun’s habit! AAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!
MaJeff & Bob – The reason you hate me so much is that the Truth is unbearable for you to hear. In addition, you make the most absurd statements about Catholicism that shows the world how ignorant you are.
I don’t hate you, Jenn. I kinda feel sorry for you. If you’re authentically this religiously brainwashed and hateful, then I pity you for the terrible life of fear and bitterness you have volunteered for. If you’re only playing the vicious little Christian for the sake of getting a few jollies, then I pity you for the pathetic existence that has led you to consider this a form of entertainment.
No inconsistencies here, I assure you!
Jenn, don’t leave me out of this. I’ve made plenty of statements about the absurdity of catholicism (yeah, you got the words in the wrong order in your post, so i’ve fixed that for you) as well.
Where’s the love, Jenn, where’s the love?
PS you’re right MA Jeff – this is fun. More fun, even, than throwing a bone for a dog to fetch. Yet strangely similar…
The reason you hate me so much is that the Truth is unbearable for you to hear.
Again, who is it that has been demonstrating deep hatred in this thread? Who is fantasizing about torture? Who is demanding human suffering over a cracker? That would be you.
Those naughty feelings must be getting pretty strong. The unfocused tingle, getting closer, somewhat intensifying. Breathing getting a bit heavier…can’t touch…but must….
Great. I thought this was supposed to be limited to MENTAL masturbation. Then again – has anyone ever done a study to determine how many Christians climaxed during The Passion of the Christ? I bet there were a whooooooole lot of ’em.
I thought this was supposed to be limited to MENTAL masturbation
For me it is. I don’t know nuthin’ about masturbation and lady parts.
Bobber: I am amazed at how so many Christians find any kind of sexual expression depraved, yet always describe their own or others’ mutilation in service to their God in the same words that a lousy romance writer describes the encounter between a randy wench and a strapping privateer. Pornographic piety is just too… weird.
Bobber, I guess you’re not into S&M? The repression is absolutely essential to a good S&M orgasm — the ultimate in S&M is mental, it’s self and other hatred.
The ultimate S&M orgasm involves no physical pleasure, or even pain, at all.
To the rest of you: Outstanding. Particularly Phil, who can’t seem to see his own eyes — just wow.
Why, MAJeff, are you homosexual? And, Bobber. What’s YOUR problem? A misogynist? Porgnographer? Look at little children do you? A bear? A flame? Hard core?
Oh, the sexual hatred is coming out. The feelings must be getting more intense, more localized.
The skin must be getting tenderer to the touch, the lips a little dry, but the tip of the tongue doesn’t have enough saliva. Instead, it makes the lips tingle.
MORE TORTURE IMAGES! must lubricate!
Jenn, even when i thought you couldn’t get any more pathetic, you throw in homophobia. You are a complete loser.
Jenn, even when i thought you couldn’t get any more pathetic, you throw in homophobia. You are a complete loser.
Why wouldn’t she? It’s Catholic doctrine.
I stand by my call of Poe. She’s calling someone else’s religious belief silly.
You folks keep getting Poe’s Law backwards. Basically, it says that, if some religious nutcase seems so whacked that you think it must be a parody, you’ve underestimated how whacked religious nutcases can be.
Jenn, did it ever occur to you that the aggression you are receiving in this thread is because you are using your faith as an excuse to insult people and promote lies?
I mean, do you even understand the concept of “atheism,” in that an “atheist” does not recognize the existence of God or other supernatural beings because they do not see evidence of them? Atheism is not devil-worshiping, as you so claimed. If you wish to contradict me, please do so by providing an atheist who truthfully claims to worship the devil.
frog said: “Bobber, I guess you’re not into S&M?”
Nah, nothing too punishing. Boring, that’s me! Unless I’m drinking wine out of the Viking horn… then, it’s naked Twister, and all bets are off.
Jenn said: “What’s YOUR problem? A misogynist? Porgnographer? Look at little children do you? A bear? A flame? Hard core?”
No, no, no, yes, no, no. I’m Sicilian, so the bear thing comes with the genes. Ever see those movies supposedly showing Bigfoot in the woods? That’s me going for a stroll while camping.
See how having a sense of humor can make even the nastiest jibes just kinda slough off? No, you probably can’t.
Wowbagger said: “Jenn, even when i thought you couldn’t get any more pathetic, you throw in homophobia.”
As I said before, the super-religious are just scared of sex in general, and anything out of the “norm” in particular. I really do feel sorry for people who hate the very thought of sexuality. As a liberal, socialist, commie, freedom-loving, smoke ’em if you got ’em, life-is-too-short-so-let’s-fuck atheist, I find my outlook on the world ever so much sunnier than theirs.
Jenn at #1374:
Say there, Jenn, are you recruiting for your parish priest? If MAJeff is a child, will you rush the news to your Pederast in Black?
Can you even imagine the irony of you snarking someone about this when your religion’s priests are world renowned for humping as many little boys as they can possibly get away with?
Are you even paying attention to what your handlers are typing or are you just as stupid as we are beginning to suspect?
#1375-1381 – To all you foolish and corrupt God haters: It’s obvious that reason is your enemy and that you love darkness instead of light. You elevate all that is vile and by doing so glorify Satan.
One definition of Hell is “the absence of God”. You live now on earth where the beauty of nature sustains you, but as your minds descend further into moral corruption, hate, and hoplessness the result is normally suicide. Once dead, the real abscence of God begins and satan will reveal himself to you with all his vengeance.
God does not so much as send you to hell – you choose hell for yourself. As you reject God in life, you will also reject Him in eternity. Between Heaven and hell, hell will be yours.
Jenn, at any #, have you met Jolene from the Fresh Cracker thread? I think you two would hit it off nicely. I do not think you would be lovers, but you do have much in common.
Can we take your last post to indicate you are leaving? If so, thanks for stopping by, have a cracker, don’t let the confessional door, or the priest, hit you in the ass.
Yes, responding to your anger with scorn, slight regard and contempt. You are welcome.
Pax Nabisco
P.S. I do appreciate you not offering to pray for us, nice to see the hatred unfiltered.
Jenn,
Thanks for including me – FINALLY. I was beginning to think i wasn’t trying hard enough.
I don’t hate god – that would be a complete waste of time (and energy) because I don’t believe he exists. Ditto heaven, hell and satan.
You, on the other hand, are full of hate. And hate leads to the dark side. See? Everyone can quote words from things humans made up. Plus Star Wars had cool lasers and shit. If the bible had had the Millennium Falcon in it, it might have been half decent. But it didn’t – so it sucks ass. Big time.
Jenn’s back for a morning tickle.
Just let the hate wash over you Jenn. You’ll be wet shortly.
It’s CLEAR that YOU hate God, don’t believe in Him – Jenn
Jenn, how is it you do not see how ridiculous this is? How can anyone hate something they don’t believe in? OK, when you’re reading a novel, I suppose you can “hate” the bad guy, but only a psychotic mistakes this for a real-life emotion. Hm, I suppose I’ve answered my own question!
The “death threats” are lies fabricated by Cook and Myers. – Jenn
Clearly, since she could only know this by occult means, Jenn is a witch! Now we know what the Bible says about witches, don’t we? You’ve nothing to fear from us atheists, but you’d better watch out for your fellow Christians, Jenn!
What strikes me most forcibly about paganism and witchcraft is that, if it weren’t so dangerous and evil, it would be so flaming SILLY. – Jenn the cracker-worshipper
My irony meter just leapt out of the window, screaming that it simply couldn’t take any more.
Just like Fred Phelps is a dream come true for non-believers, an atheist version of Fred Phelps can only help the cause of people who believe. So all believers need to back down, show love, and wait. The outcome of actions like this can only help the way. – Daffey
“”I don’t care what you do with me, Brer Fox” said Brer Rabbit. “Just don’t fling me in that briar patch over there. Roast me, Brer Fox, but don’t fling me in in that briar patch,” said Brer Rabbit.”
1383-1388 God does exist but by the time you atheists see the reality, you will be dead and it will be too late. At that point you will discover satan with whom you will be for eternity.
ooooh…she’s bringing up the torture. She must be feeling randy!
Do you think about Jesus, too, when you touch yourself? Does the guilt make it dirtier and hotter?
Jenn
You are boring me.
God does exist but by the time you atheists see the reality, you will be dead and it will be too late. – Jenn the torture-freak
You’re being inconsistent Jenn. Earlier you implied that those who die come face to face with God and then choose hell.
BTW,
I made too much food for breakfast. Anyone want some fetuscakes benedict? They’re young and fresh, so kind of like soft-shell crabs. Mighty tasty!
Hey Jenn, pray for me too.
Hm, better pray lots. I’m depraved.
One thing is sure, Jenn is in Hell already…
Jenn, I think you need to brush up on your conversion techniques. “You’re all going to hell” is the verbal equivalent of monkeys hurling their own feces.
Jenn, I’m certain that I’m not the only person wondering this, but I feel that on behalf of the group I must ask: Have you even read the Bible?
I don’t believe the Bible to be the literal, or even figurative, Word of God, nor do I believe that it contains any holy decrees. If you believe that the deity described in the Bible is an accurate representation of the creator of the world, then best of luck to you. I, quite frankly, would rather not worship a hateful, vindictive, jealous, homophobic, racist, sexist, petty, bigoted, unforgiving, genocidal monster, whether He exists or not.
Awwww poor Jenn. So deluded and self righteous. Phhht.
I sent a perfectly respectful letter to you discussing my concerns about your plans. I was hoping that an intelligent, educated man would have the intellectual maturity to enter into a discourse or acknowledge a position that he may not hold…but perhaps I was wrong. There is one reason that should be acceptable to the liberal reader – to desecrete the Host is an action that is hateful, mean, narrowminded, and prejudiced. It is no different from any other hate crime. Hate the institution, hate the doctrine – fine. But this action will cause pain to millions of devout believers who are seeing something they cherish trammeled and abused.
As to the threats – I wouldn’t be surprised they weren’t the acts of people trying to ramp up the controversy. Most Catholics I know – and I know a lot of them – have expressed sorrow and regret when we discuss crimes like this one. Angry? Of course I am angry. My beliefs and convictions are being violated by your actions.
I will pray for you – and for those who embrace their hatred who have spewed forth their venom in this forum. It’s fine to disagree. It’s not acceptable to be so hateful and vile. A truly educated person would argue on the merits of their position – pity that most of these posts have been infantile, childish, and puerile.
I will pray for you
fuck you too
John Martin: Most Catholics I know – and I know a lot of them – have expressed sorrow and regret when we discuss crimes like this one. Angry? Of course I am angry. My beliefs and convictions are being violated by your actions.
Wow. The moral monsters come out of the woodwork. He’s not “sorrowful and regretful” about death threats — oh no, doesn’t appear as a crime at all in JMs posting.
So well spoken for a caricature of a human being.
MaJeffie, Nick, etc – Finally figured out why all of you talk about sex and hate God so much. It’s because you all have tiny penises.
oooh…she’s back, bringing the hate.
Must be filling that itch, huh Jenn?
Hate god? Like the way you hate unicorns?!?! You unicorn bigot! You have no soul if you hate unicorns!
Anyone who hates unicorns is frigid and never gets laid.
It’s written down, in a book, somewhere… I think.
What’s really sad, though, Steve_C, is that Jenn is so incompetent that she cannot make a connection between the insult and the reason for the insult, and she can’t even bring any creativity to bear. So driven by blind hatred, she makes herself even more stupid and incoherent.
Or, she’s just a fuckwit in the first place.
What a bunch of whiny babies. You verbally brutalize people and think it’s funny, but when someons turns the tables on you, you cry like the emotionally immature little boys you are. Your stupid, incoherent and hypocritical statements -that you think are hilariously funny, each of you trying to impress the others with what you imagine as wit – reveal you for what you are -inconsequential men with narrow-minds. Try maturity and see if your outlook improves. Dorks.
…and tiny penises! Don’t forget the tiny penises, there, Ms. Mature.
Ah, and the maturity card comes out.
All of this makes sense coming from a person so driven by hatred that she fantasizes about, desires, longs for, and enjoys the thought of actual human beings being tortured for all eternity.
But she’s a good person.
With a huge cock.
Jenn,
I’m your huckleberry.
when someons turns the tables on you
That implies someone responding with something which was equal to what was delivered to them. You have yet to display anything resembling equality on any level – either well-constructed arguments or witty, cutting insults.
stupid, incoherent and hypocritical statements
Um, you attacked someone else’s religion because it’s (and I quote) ‘silly’ – do i really need to point out to you that you believe in an invisible magic man in the sky, loaves and fishes, water into wine, resurrection, heaven, hell, angels, devils and so forth? How is that any less ‘silly’? Feel free to explain.
inconsequential men with narrow-minds
Hypocrisy again – and making a huge assumption that everyone posting replies to you is male.
Try maturity and see if your outlook improves
I’ll paraphrase something you should be familiar with – but I wouldn’t be surprised if you aren’t: let she who is without sin cast the first stone…
What a bunch of whiny babies. You verbally brutalize people
wow, such perfect projection.
*sniff*
Pascal’s Wager might be something for you to contemplate
well, Jenn, if Satan is my god, as you say, then it would appear I have already not only contemplated it, but come up with my own conclusion, yes?
Not nearly as hateful as atheist cannibals who joke about bar-b-quing babies, having “baby-back ribs” and thinking up different sauces. That is as hateful as a person can get.
Hey, Jeff, did you ever get those recipes for long-pig I sent ya a few months back?
July is always a good month for BBQ long-pig.
I keep thinking “Jenn” might actually be the screaming church lady:
(HA! I bet you thought I was going to link to the OTHER screaming xian woman)
Jenn,
You are aware that witchcraft was not mentioned in the bible until a re-translation (shortly before the burning times if I recall my dates correctly) influenced not by a religious figure, but at the whim of a secular king. Know what another name for witchcraft was before that point? It was called the healing art. I don’t know about your sect, but in the church I grew up in we had a few points in our books and songs that said things along the lines of “I will learn the healing art.”
Do though explain how I am weak minded by having a belief different from yours that’s based on actually learning about other people before judging them. I’m really not seeing how learning about satanists and their rituals before judging them is at all weak minded. It seems to me the weak mind is one who accepts everything they hear as truth only when it’s already in agreement with what they want to hear, for example the belief that satanists are evil because some preacher told you they use a blessed cracker in their black mass.
Frankly though, I have nothing against your god beyond the fact that I don’t believe in him. What I do have problems with is his lying, cheating, violent, hypocritical, etc fan club. I’ve met and known hundreds of so called christians, and about 60ish pagans, and from those samples I can say I have not met a single christian more christlike than any pagan I know. In addition to that I can also say that from my observations the traits that get respected in christian churches and cause the people to be called “a good christian” or “so very christlike” are exactly the things condemned in the bible. It’s “love the sinner, hate the sin” not “hate and prejudge everyone different from you” nor does the bible condone the actions that cause the above mentioned day of remembrance.
I’m also going to take it from your statement of “What strikes me most forcibly about paganism and witchcraft is that, if it weren’t so dangerous and evil, it would be so flaming SILLY” that you don’t actually know anything about my religion. That’s some serious false witness there, but go ahead and enlighten me as to what is so dangerous about paganism, not based on what your preacher and the christian sites say about us, but based on our actual rituals and observances. How about some examples of whats so evil beyond us not believing in your god as well? I’ll bet there’s not a single statement you can make about this. Negative points if you quote the preacher who claims to have been a high priest in one of the ceremonial ordo’s since the ordo he claims to have led has never had a high priest, and the members didn’t recognize him when asked about him. I’ll not tell you who did this though, it’s your job to avoid the lies spewed freely by your side in your efforts to actually converse on this subject.
But lets step back from all that for now, and just look at the hate rhetoric spewed by you. In it you lie, show disdain for your fellow man, do not turn the other cheek, and show yourself to be the hypocrite. If we take the assumption that your faith really is right I’ll rest easy knowing your actions have certainly damned you more than my actions have damned me. Don’t believe that you’re more in the wrong, go look up the various sins I’ve listed for you, that book has some clear statements about some of those sins.
Oh, allright…
here:
DARKSIDED!
Felt I should expand on Wowbagger’s post in one part.
“Um, you attacked someone else’s religion because it’s (and I quote) ‘silly’ – do i really need to point out to you that you believe in an invisible magic man in the sky, loaves and fishes, water into wine, resurrection, heaven, hell, angels, devils and so forth? How is that any less ‘silly’? Feel free to explain.”
Not only was it an attack claiming it as silly, but it’s an attack based on not knowing anything beyond the notion that I might not believe in her magic man in the sky. There are christian witches, I’ve not personally met any beyond a few chat rooms I used to visit a while ago, but it shows that being pagan doesn’t even mean being non-christian. Now my initial post could be taken to mean I don’t believe in the christian god, but I don’t say that, I merely pointed out that there’s nothing original about him or his son. I mention artifacts going back to prehistory, but that can mean a statue of a god or goddess just as readily as a stone pentacle for xyz ritual.
Attacks based on assumptions and ignorance do not work Jenn, if you want anyone to take a single work your saying seriously you’ll have to use your brain a little before you post.
Bleh, why can’t I participate in at least one blog comment section without making a glaring typo.
Final paragraph should say “if you want anyone to take a single word your saying seriously” instead of “single work.”
“God does not so much as send you to hell – you choose hell for yourself.”
There’s the thin justification that they all throw in to supposedly prevent people from thinking that they get off on eternal torture. That God either can’t stop me from damning myself and is therefore not all-powerful, or he just won’t, and is therefore not all-loving. It’s a ridiculous notion, but if one keeps it rigidly compartmentalized, it makes a nice way to absolve yourself from any guilt caused by worshipping a god who saw it fit to create Hell.
“There’s a real erotic fetishization of pain and suffering, and causing it.”
Kiss the boot of shiny shiny leather.
jenn at #1382
“but as your minds descend further into moral corruption, hate, and hoplessness the result is normally suicide”
Do you have anything factual to back this up with? Or is this just a wishful rant?
I couldn’t get past the 3rd one before I couldn’t stop rolling my eyes, preventing me from reading any further.
*sigh*
MaJeffie, Nick, etc – Finally figured out why all of you talk about sex and hate God so much. It’s because you all have tiny penises. – Jenn
Not only a witch, but clearly a very powerful one! If she can see the details of the male anatomy across thousands of miles, she can probably alter them! Be afraid, guys, be very afraid, respect her beliefs, or Jenn will shrink your penis!
p.s. Jenn, I haven’t previously mentioned sex in this thread, other than indirectly in a single jibe about pedophiles becoming Catholic priests – which is well attested.
You know I’ve been following this and reading your comments since this started. I’m a devout catholic so of course I’m offended by your talk about the Eucharist and threats to desecrate it. In response to an earlier posters comments “Do you think this people will really pray for you”, I want you to know that I sincerely will be. For all of you that are so convinced God doesn’t exist and think this is all just Catholics being oversensitive, know that I will be praying for you tonight when I go to mass. Debating with you is pointless, you have your positions and my words won’t get through to you. You are the sole intention I will be focusing on when I go to mass tonight. May God forgive you. “Oh my Jesus forgive us our sins and save us from the fires of hell. Please lead all souls to heaven especially those most in need of thy mercy, Amen”
You are the sole intention I will be focusing on when I go to mass tonight. May God forgive you. “Oh my Jesus forgive us our sins and save us from the fires of hell. Please lead all souls to heaven especially those most in need of thy mercy, Amen”
Oooooh. More meaningless talking to one’s self.
And a big ol’ “Fuck you” to you too.
MAJeff, thank you for your post proving me right. I’ll say an extra prayer for you.
I’ll say an extra prayer for you.
“fuck you” right back atcha.
Everytime you insult me and direct your anger at me when I try to do God’s will you only bring me closer to heaven and a greater reward. You can spew your hate at me all day.
So you’re admitting that it really is all about you?
MaJeff responding with “Fuck you” to each of my posts…yes I would say it’s reasonable to say that’s about me.
Actually, I think for him, it’s more about all religionists. They make him grumpy.
But what I was referring to was the fact that the ultimate reason for your prayer appears to be in anticipation of the reward. In other words, you’re praying because you, personally, will benefit from it.
If you gleaned that from my post then I think you misunderstood my intent. When a person is insulted (as in this case) or in any way suffers for Christ their reward in heaven is greater. Prayer is not done for a reward as you put it. Please do not infer in anyway that praying for someone makes me think I get any benefit whatsoever, that would be self serving. My intent of praying (in my earlier post) is that I (and we as Catholics) are hopeful that all people, believers and non will make it to heaven. So my intent is praying is for the non believers here that they might one day accept God in their lives. I’m not going to get much further into a discussion about it, my intent by posting was not to get drawn into a debate, this is hardly the forum for it. My intent in posting was to let all of those who don’t believe in God or that think it’s just a cracker that not everyone reacts with hate or anger. I sincerely hope that responding with respect and love that it might open someone’s eyes. And thank you Owlmirror for being respectful in our conversation.
Also adding that I’m walking away from the computer for the day so I won’t be responding to subsequent postings.
“When a person is insulted (as in this case) or in any way suffers for Christ their reward in heaven is greater.”
Huh. I’ve never actually seen the need for self-martyrdom written down like that before. Must be why there are so many Christian trolls around here, they’re collecting heaven points.
Yet how could it not be self-serving? You say that there is a reward, and that you are aware of it.
As ever, I appreciate apokatastasis. But it really isn’t up to you.
Yet the prayer is useless. It cannot affect me, and it cannot affect God regarding me (because God would not act to affect my free will, according to Catholic doctrine).
So it certainly looks like the only benefit is to yourself.
Owlmirror I did my best to explain, I guess it wasn’t good enough. As I said earlier, I’m not going to get drawn into a debate. We’re on opposite sides of the river, hope you find a bridge across one day, good luck.
Actually, I think for him, it’s more about all religionists. They make him grumpy
Just the arrogant fuckwits who think “I’ll pray for you” is welcome and somehow unagressive.
But, while Mikey’s off talking to himself, I had a lovely dinner with a friend.
Perhaps you could pray for better communication skills.
Or perhaps you could pray for the answer to the question of why anyone prays, given that God is not affected by prayer.
Everytime you insult me and direct your anger at me when I try to do God’s will you only bring me closer to heaven and a greater reward. You can spew your hate at me all day.
give me your wallet and the keys to your car.
now.
If your original blog was about anything that had to do with Islam, these same people would probably be sending you emails of praise. Keep up the good work, friend.
“Remember that Freedom of Speech is not freedom to harm others, which is what you are doing.” from an anti-PZ rant.
My favorite, all PZ threatened was a cracker.
Myers expressing an intention to desecrate the “cracker” does nothing but speak very poorly about himself. Its one thing to hear anti-religious trash talk from some random nameless stranger on a generic atheist forum, but to hear it from someone who is a professor at a University, gives the whole thing a new perspective.
It opens the true rational mind to the reality that Myers has caused irrepairable damage to a) the atheist movement parading under “science” and “rationality” b)the integrity of a website that calls itself “scienceblogs.com”. Considering he uses the headline “Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal” surprising no one noticed the jesters hat on the University Professors head.
Serious atheist circles (if any) now have to deal with Myers, who is merrily sawing away at the atheist tree of “science” and “rationality”.
dg… concern noted.
But you’re wrong.
Note on #1439, by dg:
Hey, dg! Not only are you wrong, you’re spectacularly wrong!
WTF is “the atheist movement?”
There is no “atheist movement,” peckerhead.
Either you’re just another troll, or you are truly that misinformed?
“atheist movement” indeed….
# 1441
The Atheist movement is the networks of atheist communities online and otherwise. Feel free to pretend they dont exist.
Is this a 1:1 deal, with your reward increased by the same amount I make you suffer for Jesus? Or less, or more?
Am I doing you a favor if I make you suffer, or is Jesus only partly subsidizing my sadism?
If it’s more than partial, why do Christians complain so bitterly if we make them suffer?
But maybe that explains why Christian trolls so often seem like gluttons for punishment.
PZ,
Every now and then we need a reminder as to why it is bad to interrupt cannibals at their lunch.
Keep thinking.
-GS
“the KorBibRah is a sequence of holy books hollowed out and jammed, one within the next. What better to store a supply of suitably defiled Flesh of God?”
I prefer the TorBiblRan, it’s like a Toblerone, but with 100% more blasphemy!
I am an outsider looking in. I read this story and have two scenarios and a question. Here are two situations we are all aware of involving the Catholic Church…
A young man is GIVEN a “symbol” of Jesus. He does not consume this “symbol” at the time prescribed. He faces consequences that involve accusations of “Theft”. He also receives DEATH THREATS if this “symbol” of Jesus is not returned. Parents have entrusted their own children to “Men of Faith” to take care of their children while they are serving in “Gods House” as Alter boys etc. Reports come out through the years of more and more children being raped by the Priests they have been entrusted to by their parents. What are the Priests threatened with? A few have been felt the consequences a secular law, as in Jail time. But what happened to the rest? Many were transferred to other Diocese’. As any outsider looking in. Answer this question…. In comparison, which of these scenarios is the greater evil and truly effect the people involved?
An interesting experiment, and one I think rightly demonstrates the strange ‘sacred cows’ that we have. A cracker is a cracker to those people who think its a cracker, and to those think its actually the body of their God, then its the body of their God, and they go nuts thinking you’ve desecrated something they hold holy. Their reaction is quite predictable, if not in any way rational.
My question is: Having put a rusty nail through a cracker that some people consider sacred and then dumped coffee grinds and a banana peel on it, and then mocked those people for their predictable if not rational reaction, would you (general you) be happy to do the same to a piece of cloth?
Would it then make a difference to your feelings regarding that bit of cloth if it just happened to be the flag of the USA (or your own country’s flag, for that matter, although the flag of the USA would get the most attention on the internet)?
If you’d feel in any way uncomfortable about ripping through the the Stars & stripes with a rusty nail, placing it in the garbage and then dumping used coffee grinds & a banana peel, then please ask yourself why you’d think of a piece of cloth any different to a dry cracker. Sure, *some* people see it as something special, a symbol as something holy, indeed, perhaps a holy object in its own right. But the flag of the USA is just a piece of cloth, just like a ‘host’ is just a cracker.
And if I did get a flag of the USA, and put a rusty nail through it, and then after placing it in my trash, put some used coffee grinds and a banana peel onto it, and published my results on the Internet, whilst I could smugly point out that their reaction to some bit of cloth is entirely irrational, I certainly wouldn’t be surprised at getting death threats from those who take their patriotism *seriously*.
The question of course, why would I *want* to do that to the flag of the USA? I know damn well it would piss a lot of people off, and most likely result in death threats. Would pissing that many people off to make my point be worthwhile?
Personally, I don’t think so. Those who get the point about flags (and crackers) would get the point about flags (and crackers) without me actually going through with it. Those people who would have an irrational reaction to a flag are unlikely to get the ‘point’ no matter how many times its made (with or without photographic evidence).
I wonder if this cracker stunt has changed anyone’s minds, or got anyone to think. I hope so, although suspect not. Those who see the point saw the point before the photo, those that are frothing at the mouth at the desecration still aren’t going to ‘get it’ and the rest of the world is going to use the internet for looking at porn rather than this blog.
But at least you (PZ Myer) had the balls to do it, knowing the reaction you were going to get, so credit where credit is due. I’m not going to ‘desecrate’ the Stars & Stripes for the cause; I’m a chicken. But feel free to try it some time yourself if you like. It will probably get a bigger reaction than the cracker.
Way to miss the point Victoria. Try again.
Steve_C,
What is the point that I missed? (Serious question, I’d appreciate an answer, please)
Summary of part one of my post:
Some people hold a particular type of cracker sacred. Dr Myers offended them by treating it without the respect they (irrationally) believe it deserves. He treated it like, well, a cracker.
Some people (irrationally) hold a particular type of cloth (the flag of the USA) if not sacred, then very special. If it were to be treated in the same way that Dr Myers treated the cracker, they’d get upset. And yet, people use dishcloths every day, so its not *cloth* that is special.
In both cases, it is not what the material actually is, but what it *means* to a group of people (an irrational meaning or otherwise).
What is the inherent difference?
Summary of part two of my post:
What did Dr Myers hope to achieve by doing this?
The folks who already understood what was going on didn’t need the extra demonstration.
The Catholics predictably objected and have done some seriously irrational things like withdraw funding, and as far as I understand it, have gone so far as making death threats. I admire his courage in that regard, as I am sure he knew this was going to happen.
Have any minds been changed by this?
Still, its got a lot of attention (1449 posts) and perhaps the dialogue therein has been useful to at least some. If that was what Dr Myers wished to achieve, then he’s done remarkably well.
I have read these comments sent to Myers and am not really impressed by the “hatred” shown in them for PZ Myers. There is clearly some anger and also many prayers as well. Some thank Myers for drawing them closer to God. In all these posts, I have found only one or two indirect death threats. I would never support death threats, that’s for sure. As a theist, many atheists have sent me hate mail over this, using a lot of vulgar language, and many have even hope that all theists be “wiped out” (even better than a death threat — a genocide threat!) It is clear that Myers, by supporting theft and desecration of sacred objects, wanted to get a lot of attention. Now he has it, and is a hero to atheists around the nation, perhaps around the world. I hope he enjoys his fame. But, one question, does he really understand how bad atheists look when they reject “reason” and stoop down towards hate speech and hate crimes? What ever happened to atheists like Arthur C. Clarke? I miss his calm maturity. He would never do something so infantile as this.
can you send me mails through email
i was looking for material about catholics for my new blog when i came across this. astonishing that you received so much hate mail, as well as so many comments, on this! maybe i should write up an article on what i think of catholics, then their masses of blatherers will give me lots of hits …. :)
Lrg prdcts whlsl sl, prvds cstmrs dmnd