We’re seeing a lot of new traffic here, and a lot of it seems to be people hunting down that infamous P.Z. Myers dude because they read about his evil ways in some publication, or saw the name in some really bad movie. You’re at the right place, welcome, go ahead and leave a comment. If you’re a creationist, the other commenters here are always hungry for a little fresh meat, and if you’re just generally interested in the subjects discussed here, join the conversation. You can find a list of my science articles here, but as long as you’ve found the place, may I suggest you take a look at the ScienceBlogs main page? There’s a legion of other science blogs right here, my next door neighbors, and they’d probably appreciate some visits, too.
And who knows? You may have really bad taste and think one of those other guys has a better blog than mine, and you’ll hang out there. I might forgive you.
:P
You might forgive us?
But forgiveness is a Christian virtue! Obviously, you’ve been more influenced by Judeo-Christian morality than you’ve lead us to believe.
Christ be with you!
P.S. Poe’s Law seems to require that I point out that this is meant satirically.
Fresh meat!
And, really, don’t think that some creationist, IDist, or “Expelled” claim is some great new insight that needs to be pointed out to us. We’ve heard it all, and we’ve shown that nearly all of them are bogus.
So if you wish to discuss such claims without pretending that we must agree with them, or that they are true beyond question, many people will be willing to discuss them. But if your only point is that science really is religion and close-minded, you had better either have some damn good evidence for such assertions (hint, better than we’ve seen yet), or you may as well not bother.
We will call the stupid “stupid”, and we’ll also call the dishonest “liars”. It’s basic honesty.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
You just posted that excellent article on chromosome number variation and you expect people to *go away*? What are you on? ;)
(I don’t think I’ve ever seen a clearer explanation of those mechanisms, and I’ve seen a few.)
I’m one of the newcomers recently discovering this blog because of its (indirect…almost six degrees) association with a certain film rooted in Stork-Theory.
I study the Milgram Obedience experiment and it’s relation to various communication theories year-round and eventually I found my way to Win Ben Stein’s latest ‘film’ and now I’m here.
And pay attention to the comments, visitors!
The smarts around here continue to amaze me – PZ’s blog has attracted some brilliant commentors.
You will learn a lot from them.
I do.
#4 Glen:
“We’ve heard it all, and we’ve shown that nearly all of them are bogus.”
Only ‘nearly all’? Which ones have we so unfortunately left out?
I started reading your blog because you’re such a great dancer.
Indeed, I didn’t find out about this blog until I saw an internet ad for Ben Stein’s latest attempt at endearing himself to the right as their intellectual champion. Though this whole farce of a movie I’ve gotten to laugh at Stein numerous times, as well as become disgusted by him and his prostitution of the fact that he’s Jewish to try to lend a shred of credibility to the ridiculous – and in my opinion, quite immoral – insinuation in the movie that Darwin was responsible for the Holocaust. If that gem, along with having been a speechwriter for our country’s Presidential criminal extraordinaire, doesn’t spell the exact definition of a man void of intellectual integrity, I don’t know what would.
But the silver lining is, of course, that it got me into the blogosphere, and I’m quite enjoying it. Being that this is my first site that I regularly come to and comment on, I believe Pharyngula will be my home site for a while longer!
Visitors with opinions and/or questions as to whether belief in [Yeshua, Mithra, or…] is essential to good behaviour may find this book by Michael Shermer interesting: The Science of Good and Evil : Why People Cheat, Gossip, Care, Share, and Follow the Golden Rule. The page http://www.amazon.com/Science-Good-Evil-People-Gossip/dp/0805075208 has a link that lets you view excerpts. According to a review on Amazon:
Guess I’m one of the new lurkers, too, seeing as how I’d never heard of scienceblogs until your post about Expelled.
I actually like your science articles the most, to be honest, even if some of them fly over my head on first reading. :)
Ditto on finding your blog because of Expelled (specifically, because of your expulsion from Expelled).
Probably the only good thing that came out of this movie…
You should have pulled a “Are the New Viewers Gone Yet?“
I hasten to add that newcomers can join the Drinking Liberally and Cafe Scientifique (et al) outings should they be in the appropriate areas.
I’m here to meet all the pretty girls who are known to hang out with science-types. That, and I’m killing time until all those Nigerian millions arrive safely in my account. And also because things are a tad slow at my own blog, so I’d like to learn how it’s done from the master.
I just realized that this is my first year anniversary. One full year of checking this blog daily.
I feel old… and wiser!
Welcome new people!
Thank you for the welcome, and thanks for sharing your knowledge. A long time ago I was exposed to the idea that people couldn’t have moral direction without a creator – which I’ve come to know as total nonsense. It also impresses me how well computers can “create” using genetic algorithms. I think an obstacle that many people encounter understanding evolution is coming to grips with the enormous span of time that has brought us to our present form.
Thanks PZ for being a voice of reason.
Well I was drawn here at the very start of the whole ‘Expelled’ fiasco, when Richard Dawkins told us all over at RD.net that he had been tricked into giving an interview for a creationist film. He also said PZ had been duped too, so I found the link to Pharyngula and have loved reading PZ’s stuff ever since, his sarcastic, dry wit reflects my own and as for the cephalopods… they are strangely addictive.
Gosh, I remember my first time stumbling upon that which is Pharyngula. It changed my life, and it can change your too! Simply send a minimum of a young nubile woman to PZ and he wont eat a baby in front of you! Yep, that’s right. The sacrificing of young nubile women to PZ will curtail any evil deed done in the name of evilu…er evolution!
With apologies to the Clash, Pharyngula is “the only blog that really matters”.
I haven’t seen the film yet, and reading some of the articles and then watching the trailer, I don’t think I’ll even bother. Some compare the film to Michael Moore’s work, but at least Moore brings forth arguments, and by doing so opens discussions.
The problem with creationism (ID) is that I never hear good arguments.
Creationism is based on sentiments. Science is based on facts, but can’t yet provide an answer to everything. As the decades pass, we know more, but knowing more opens doors to other problems we need to find a explanation for. The answer will never be 42, nor will it be god – (maybe there is a small chance it is a Flying Spaghetti Monster though).
Nuff said, I’ll keep an eye open for fresh meat WITH arguments.
Yours truly,
Bram, Brussels, Belgium
#20: On top of that, if the postage for a nubile young woman from your locale is too much, you can send her to me, and I can assure you that PZ won’t eat a baby in front of you either!
It’s here! It’s here. Expelled is here! loud proud in the town of Richmond Va. Playing at 4 theaters nonetheless. Don’t they have a number of lawsuits against them pending? Seems like they would be in more trouble releasing their masterpiece before settling with all the folks they stole from… To go or not to go… it may be my only chance to see PZ literally larger than life…
The smarts around here continue to amaze me – PZ’s blog has attracted some brilliant commentors.
You will learn a lot from them.
Especially the ones in the dungeon. :):):)
They’ll be looking for maximum results from the first week, so at least leave it for 10 days or so before visiting. No sense in bumping up their numbers for them. But I suspect they’ll be giving it away free on the net within a couple of months. (Though admittedly PZ is unlikely to be larger than life on your monitor.)
Before I forget, I got the link to this blog from the Guardian (personal feeling: by far the best newspaper on the face of this planet) http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/adam_rutherford/2008/04/devoid_of_intelligence.html
I dunno… if the extreme close-up of Dawkins’s nose is anything to judge by, he might still be pretty large.
I was linked here from somewhere (I really have no idea where) back in March for the entry that shows a video of creationists at a museum in Denver.
Drat. I never got any blog posting noting that I’d started reading this blog. I feel cheated.
I have, however, had blog postings criticizing me both by Vox Day and Gagdad Bob, which was some measure of consolation.
Science, schmience. I’m here for the cephalopod porn. Bring on the tentacle-y goodness.
In all seriousness, thanks for the terrific chromosome posting! It was a great refresher for those of us who’ve been out of school for –cough– a while.
Yes, welcome, new people! If you are skeptical of evolution, as some call themselves, but are earnestly interested in finding stuff out about it, we will be happy to help. If you ask a question or make a comment, you may get some fairly blunt answers. But if you’re asking/remarking in earnest, most of us will be happy to explain things.
You may even find that the answers you get here are more genuine than you’re used to. Since this is a scientifically-oriented blog, people here usually have a solid foundation of evidence behind their positions. And there are no sacred cows–no questions you can’t ask about something. You may get barked at for asking something that’s been asked (and answered) three dozen times already, but that’s frustration about having to repeat themselves, not adherence to doctrine.
I’ve been reading PZ’s blog for about a month. I commented on the MySpace page.
For those who don’t visit MySpace – here’s the comment:
“Thanks for Pharyngula. It’s a great way to start the day for a retired science teacher – evolution teacher – turned drum maker.”
Been reading almost daily for about 18 months, commented maybe a dozen short ones, one of the half dozen blogs I even consider commenting on.
The folks around here are ferocious toward the wilfully obtuse (and one another). At times it gets so red in tooth and claw you almost expect Attenborough to be doing the voice over. But a genuine question about a relevant topic will find a better answers here than almost anywhere else I know.
I love the fierce insistence on accuracy, verifiability, honest reasoning. I love the profane explosions of long-honed exasperation at pig-headedness. I love the cephalopods – I had no idea how much one could come to stand in awe of the cephalopod.
Genomicron may well be the best alternate science blog to PZ’s. I have been impressed with it and really enjoy both columns.
Actually, I’m here because Thoreau sent me. Lurking about, liking what I’m seeing.
PZ I sent you an email with a set of questions about gene transcription in neurons and variance in popluation. I picked the wrong time as creationists have been sending you lots of questions/hate mail.
My questions were about how intelligence might be determined by genetic factors and how this might be displayed in populations.
@20, @23: There’s a network of Pee Zed reprobates around the world, so it should be fairly easy to find one close to you; i.e., with low shipping costs for the nubile young women…
Babies don’t cost that much to ship and Pee Zed will appreciate the fresh food. In fact, if the network doesn’t keep him fed, he’s likely to show at your door, rip it off with one of his many tentacles, and drink all your beer. Then he’ll go crash a movie or something…
In-between these Adventures of the Kraken Overlords, there some fecking good science here and elsewhere on SciBlogs. And thoughtful, fact-filled debunking. It pays to read both the posts and also the comments. A careful reader should notice that critical comments are not, as a rule, deleted. Persistent obnoxiousness or stupidity can result in banning, moderation, disemvoweling, or most often, ridicule. Honest mistakes may result in some jocular ribbing, and if you’re “lucky”, another in-joke, but supplying a nubile young woman will quickly put an end to that…
And welcome!
The funniest part of Expelled was the last interchange between Dawkins and Stein. It was also very revealing and unmasks support for Darwin isn’t based on evidence but on a world view that is hostile to religion. The rest of Darwin’s team in Expelled come off as not part of science as well. I know a lot of guys who work in science and they don’t prsent themselves this way when they discuss ideas in the area of expertise.
Oooh, pegged me. I’ve started reading Pharyngula on a regular basis for about a month now. Good topics and conversation. I have enjoyed the back and forth nature of many a blog comment section.
I am and always have been here for the barbeque.
@ Bill #28
Could you be more specific please?
Beware newbie creationists. This is not where you want to start criticizing evolution or atheists. These are the most well-informed, sarcastic, and sharp commenters on the web. It will be a bloody, brutal, and (fun for me) takedown..you don’t want to cut your teeth here. But, if you’re brave, please do. I love reading the comments here just for that:) The commenters, plus PZ, make this the best blog on the web.
Actually, I’m a long time reader, just not a very good commenter. So I figure it’s about time I stop lurking about and poke my nose in various biological stuff (not literally mind you) and fun debates.
I teach 7th grade biology about 10 miles from Cornell University. You’d think the influence would leach out, I know. Today, two students told me about the “amazing movie” they saw over the weekend. To her surprise, I told the one student that I’d like to see it but will probably pay for another movie and sneak into that one as to not support that particular brand of propaganda. She then offered to pay for my ticket. Straight out of the AIG playbook. I feel sorry for these kids.
I come here because I feel the same way about religion as you do. I’d like to add that I had you as a genetics prof. five or six years ago. :)
Bill, the interviewees on Expelled were interviewed under false pretenses and the bits from the interviews that made it into the movie were carefully chosen to make them look that way.
It will be a bloody, brutal, and (fun for me) takedown..you don’t want to cut your teeth here.
this is where we figuratively get to beat the creobots with spiked clubs like baby seals.
something none of us would consider being a logical course of action outside of electronic media.
which of course is why so many of us enjoy it; it’s a great place to vent frustrations that outside of this little forum often require hours of patient conversation and evidentiary argumentation instead.
not that that never happens here, but there is a “three strike” rule in place (I’m not kidding – PZ has tried several times to clarify it on different threads):
If a creobot comes in here, they get (usually) three chances to suggest their ignorance is honest before we bring out the spiked clubs.
that law does not apply in cases where creationists have already taken liberties in a given thread, and another creationist comes in and then repeats the exact same refuted points (which happens frequently – here as well as outside of the electronic media).
the clubs are already out at that point.
Hello, I am a new person- I’ve been reading since the Expelled from Expelled debacle, subscribed to the RSS and have been reading eagerly ever since…wanted to comment a few times but never got round to it, and now seems ideal!
I’m in the UK- brought up a Catholic, converted to being a pentacostalist, soon snapped out of it but learned much from my experience. Am now a happy little atheist, with a keen interest in religion and the religious, and human behaviour.
I never studied science at school very much- partly because it was presented in quite a dull way. I gravitated towards arty stuff, and ended up doing an English Lit degree. I’ve been trying to catch up as an adult, enrolling at night classes in physics for example, because I hate having holes in my knowledge.
So I’m afraid (!) that I’m not a creationist. However, I must say something in their favour- I have learned more about evolution and biology in general by debating creationists than I have any other way. Creationist will make silly statement. I will think “Well, I’m sure that’s wrong, but I’m not sure I could explain why.” So I get myself over to talkorigins or any one of a number of excellent resources, and I read up, and I learn. So for that, thank you creationists!
But for everything else, no thank you very much.
In conclusion, hi there!
hi everyone,
i’m a long-time reader, first-time commenter (except for that hilarious account when pz got kicked out of expelled but dawkins got in)
i know that you guys dont need any help dismantling creationist claims, but this time i’ll probaby help out too =) i’ve probably been reading blogs for long enough to respond appropriately, ahah
I have learned more about evolution and biology in general by debating creationists than I have any other way
teaching (or even trying to) is often said to be the best way to learn a subject.
I think you will find that over time, the creationists will no longer pose a sufficient challenge for you to learn more, however.
I’m now a happy little atheist
You mean you’re not a bitter hater, like the creobots like to project?
:P
congrats!
“Blogging” Who’d have thought? :-) I just recently stumbled into the blogosphere a few weeks ago and in one foray found pharynugla while reading a newsy item about Ben Stein and Exposed. I’m a little unclear why there is so much effort brought forth to try and scientifically justify matters of faith. Counterintuitive at least to me, but I’m looking forward to reading much more from both sides.
And I have to say PZ, your really have an exceptional talent for explanation. That recent post on changing chromosome numbers was superb. Thanks!
I’ve tried, but I’m afraid I can’t resist. It’s a strange compulsion. Whenever, wherever anyone is discussing the evolutionary origins of morality, I must swoop in and shout it out: KROPOTKIN!
There. I feel better. It’s not that he closed the book on the subject by any means; just that given enduring caricatures I’m driven to point out that a major trailblazer in this field was in fact an anarchist.
I’m also leaving shortly for Boston Skeptics in the Pub
http://bostonskeptics.wordpress.com/
and wouldn’t have been able to relax there had I not honored his memory by inserting his name into this thread.
I found the ScienceBlogs through a link provided by Mooney somewhere, ending up here shortly thereafter. Go figure.
It’s a pretty good site, but has too much squid and not enough astronomy. I’d be happy with space-squid, though.
And I was impressed by the chromosone counting post as well.
I’m with you Faintpraise. I’ve learned more about evolutionary biology, ironically due to creationists. They really keep you on your toes; and learning. I always hope that before a creationist starts mouthing off, they go visit talkorigins; but they never do. Just use the same tired, old, discredited arguments.
for those unfamiliar, you might also try directing honestly (not willfully) ignorant folks over to the UC Berkeley site that covers the basics of evolution too:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/
some find it easier to parse than talkorigins, and there are a lot of great resources for teachers too.
@#44: I’m a grad student at Cornell, and I’m involved in science outreach. The CCMR in campus has very good resources and outreach activities. If you’d like to, we can communicate and plan something up :)
Well, I haven’t read the other comments yet, but since I was called out in this entry LOL I figured I’d finally say something. I’m one of the new lurkers and have been getting the biggest kick out of reading so many other intelligent thoughts on the unnecessary “evolution debate”. It’s helped me write a few things myself and reminded me that I’m not the only one who feels like banging my head against the desk when someone asks why there are still monkeys.
My boyfriend happened upon Richard Dawkins’ site discussing Expelled when the information started coming out about it and then I took a look and followed a link here. I have wandered to a few other scienceblogs blogs, but this is the one I have bookmarked. Who knows, I might even become your neighbor if my current writing site doesn’t open up blogs soon like they promised.
I have a PhD in Experimental Pathology and briefly taught graduate school courses. My research was on the genetics of hypertension, particularly SNPs that increase the susceptibility of certain populations (African-American vs Caucasian for example). I am now a freelance writer and edit scientific manuscripts. My current pet peeves are the Pope, George W.’s string pullers, Ben Stein, religious fundamentalists of any persuasion, and the Discovery Institute.
I’ve been reading for a few months after coming across the author’s remarks in a Chronicle of Higher Ed article (http://chronicle.com/daily/2008/02/1552n.htm). Lots of great posts, with equally great comments. I enjoy sharing pharyngula posts via google reader with my crazy xian brother.
As a guy who works in science and ‘discusses ideas in the area of expertise’ (whatever the hell that means), I have to wonder: are creationists at all able to act competently in public, or do they always spew random non sequiturs without any provocation?
I shudder to think of life in the Bible belt must be like:
Bus Driver: “Hello Ma’am. That’ll be two-fifty, please.”
Creowoman: “No one has EVER seen a duck turn into a potato! JESUS hates Stoned Wheat Thins! Ben Stein knows that ATHEISTS CAUSED HITLER!”
What about shopping?
Clerk: “Hello Sir. Is there anything I can help you find today?”
Creoman: “Apes VIOLATE the second Law of Thermodynamics. My brother had cancer and was CURED by prayer after surgery and two years of chemotherapy. ‘Course, it came back when his daughter moved to NEW YORK to lived with LIBERAL HOMOSEXUALS.”
Glad you know some ‘guys who work in science,’ Bill, but you might want to get to know some specialists in etiquette instead, so you’ll know it’s rude to wander into a conversation and begin to blather about whatever’s got your underwear in a knot at the time.
I found your blog about 2 years ago from a mention on Ed Brayton’s blog. I don’t get to visit either of you as often as I would like, but you’re still quite … stimulating.
Yes, both of you. (And don’t make me choose favorites, either!)
Hi. New here. Hello.
Since science is all wrong all the time, I think it is important to explicitly note those things that science gets right.
For example, as a creationist, I naturally speak in Comic Sans. Occasionally I speak in Bookman Oldstyle Bold when impregnated with the righteous ire of God. P.Z. has noticed this phenomenon, so kudos to him.
Everything else a scientist has ever observed is false, however.
or do they always spew random non sequiturs without any provocation?
I’m going with that as being rhetorical in nature.
Forgive me father, for I need promotion.
Can’t you link to my blog on your main page and say “this guy’s blog rocks and makes awesome points”?
Seriously!
http://copache.wordpress.com/2008/04/21/a-fundamental-problem/
I’ve been reading/posting to talk.origins for years now, so I have no excuse for not following this blog before. I always knew it existed but thought it would just the same old stuff as on Usenet. But ever since the hilarious Expelled thread I’ve been hooked.
The funniest part of Expelled was the last interchange between Dawkins and Stein. It was also very revealing and unmasks support for Darwin isn’t based on evidence but on a world view that is hostile to religion. The rest of Darwin’s team in Expelled come off as not part of science as well. I know a lot of guys who work in science and they don’t prsent themselves this way when they discuss ideas in the area of expertise.
Posted by: Bill | April 21, 2008 4:35 PM
This is actually an interesting point to Expelled, and one that will surprise many people because it didn’t require that the interview be edited.
Ben Stein asks Dawkins: Is there any way intelligent design could be true?
Dawkins replies by talking about the notion of Panspermia (which if you read any of Dawkins’ books about evolution you know he doesn’t believe in) and that an intelligent alien could be the designer. Since he’s talking about aliens, Creationists assume Dawkins is a loon, but it relies on the audience not noticing that Dawkins was asked to describe intelligent design. Which obviously Bill has failed to notice.
Dawkins looks silly, Creationists get their “HAW HAW” moment, but it doesn’t take much thought to notice their laughter is misplaced.
Caught. I was linked by a friend around the time of the “Expelled expulsion” and have been reading regularly since. I turned him on to atheism and biology but he got me reading PZ. I’m Canadian and we don’t see as much of this IDeology where I am, so some of the stories I read on Pharyngula are kind of shocking in the sense that it’s hard to imagine people really believing in that junk. I’ll admit that I’m impressed by the humour and intelligence not only of PZ but of the people that comment; I was certainly compelled to come back for more. The cephalopods are cute to look at too!
As a 60-something liberal atheist I find this to be a comforting and spiritually uplifting place to hang out most of the time, although your tendency to refer to people my age as “senile doddering fools” makes me gnash my gums. You are ok, PZ, but you have the best commenters on the interwebs which makes this my preferred placed to lurk.
I first read PZ’s blog way back when he was hosting it on a computer in his own lab. I remember how proud he was the first time his daughter posted a well reasoned refutation of one of the common arguments for the existence of god on her blog.
I first read PZ’s blog way back when he was hosting it on a computer in his own lab. I remember how proud he was the first time his daughter posted a well reasoned refutation of one of the common arguments for the existence of god on her blog.
I first read PZ’s blog way back when he was hosting it on a computer in his own lab. I remember how proud he was the first time his daughter posted a well reasoned refutation of one of the common arguments for the existence of god on her blog.
I first read PZ’s blog way back when he was hosting it on a computer in his own lab. I remember how proud he was the first time his daughter posted a well reasoned refutation of one of the common arguments for the existence of god on her blog.
I came here with the hope of learning how to grow a nifty beard.
Unfortunately, it’s not been working, and I’m catching onto you, Myers. This is, most certainly, not a beard blog.
One more vote of thanks to the creationists. My background is in particle physics (a dry, odorless science). Nothing in my high school biology class thirty years ago prompted me to delve any further into the field. Then maybe five years ago a physics friend/colleague of mine said someone at a bookstore told him some “very interesting” things about evolution. Did you know they still put stuff in biology books about peppered moths, EVEN THOUGH THEY KNOW IT WAS ALL FAKE !!! Within less than a month, a fairly bright student at the college where I work came by asking me about those same damned moths. It seemed so weird to me, that I sacrificed my own precious time and energy and typed something into Google, and out popped a discussion of “Icons of Evolution” at talk.origins. I was stunned ! I grew up in Baton Rouge (in the pre-whore Jimmy Swaggert days) so I knew how clueless and sleazy the fundies could be, but I was in no way prepared for how skilled and effective (at lying) they have become : two very smart people taken hook line and sinker. Anyway, since then, and especially around the run-up to Dover, I’ve been reading Pandas Thumb and Pharyngula a lot. Plus, I bum “desk copy” textbooks from my bio friends and (try to) read through them as well. I’m seriously challenged at remembering the huge volume of data that makes up modern biology, but to the extent that I can follow the concepts, I now find it totally fascinating. And the selection of popular press books seems way up to.
All thanks to the creos.
Echo! -cho -cho -cho …
I was reading John Hamiltion’s posts and got a strange sense of deja vu after reading the first three. Anyone else?
@#56 Thanks Brigit…Cornell has amazing outreach and that is one of the things I love most about this area. My small town has a big church that has too big of an influence. I’d love to set something up though. My email is @ the link. Thanks.
Interesting comparison here. Dr Myers welcomes new visitors and encourages debate and differing viewpoints.
For a few weeks before Expelled opened, I wrote an essay and posted it on blogs that showed the trailer for the movie and encouraged readers to see it.
My essay pointed out facts that were not addressed in the movie, it was not a rant, and it didn’t even address God in any way.
Here are some findings, after responding to over 150 sites at 42% of the sites, my essay was never even posted on the site.
Another 9% posted my essay with no response.
22% responded, but either didn’t address the points I brought up, or didn’t publish my follow-up response.
9% responded with insults and hatred.
Only 18% responded and allowed thoughtful debate.
I say that Pharyngula shows true academic freedom.
Thanks PZ!
OMG, do you think his post… might have …. replicated itself ?
I’ll take “Quadruple Post” for $500, Alex.
O Goody ( rubs hands together), some of these new people HAVE to be creationists just dying to show off their erudite and well though out arguments. Bring it oooonnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!
Just as a warning though, if any of you mention Hitler, its getting pretty fucking old and repetetive.
I first began reading posts and comments here after reading Dawkins’ TGD. Its a bit addicting actually, finding other people stating things that clearly make sense, arguments that are entertaining as well as thought-provoking, and also help me overcome my early religious indoctrination. I’m now awaiting PZ’s book. I’m sure it will be even more excellent than his posts since its taking so long. I’m hoping too, that he gives a bit and writes a few chapters a few of us self-educated, lesser educated, and uneducated-yet-searching, can grasp. This would be important I think in this fight. Thank you very much for this site and for you excellent people who comment here.
@ #73 Jeff: I found it really difficult to remember all the formulas and ratios of the forces on particles/wave packets. I guess I have an empirically thinking mind but biology always appealed to be because so much of biology can be understood without formulas. It’s highly conceptual. The only parts that really require some sort of mathematical thinking are statistics portions like genetic drift via sampling error. To me at least i found biology a very satisfying and deep field that seems to follow rules that are intuitive and more like what we experience day to day.
I first read PZ’s blog way back when he was hosting it on a computer in his own lab. I remember how proud he was the first time his daughter posted a well reasoned refutation of one of the common arguments for the existence of god on her blog.
I first read PZ’s blog way back when he was hosting it on a computer in his own lab. I remember how proud he was the first time his daughter posted a well reasoned refutation of one of the common arguments for the existence of god on her blog.
John Hamilton,
Now you’re just taking the piss now aren’t you. I know the excitment of being amongst us Pharyngulites is giving you the nervous shakes but get your finger off the Post button lad.
I think that John Hamiliton done clogged the tubes. The intwebs is backing up from the septic tank
I’ll confess to being a newbie. Heard an interview with PZ on an New England Skeptical Society podcast and have been dropping in occasionally since then.
I first read PZ’s blog way back when he was hosting it on a computer in his own lab. I remember how proud he was the first time his daughter posted a well reasoned refutation of one of the common arguments for the existence of god on her blog.
Alex reveals the question…Sweet babblin’ mother of god, it’s (wait for it)
A DAILY DOUBLE!!!
Nicely done there, John.
@81
Ditto.
I think one of the problems with people “accepting” evolution, as compared to say a round Earth or gravity or other equally “controversial” issues, is that evolution is actually a very difficult thing to grasp. Sure, it’s not hard to see how “micro-evolution” can happen, after you’ve banged your head against DNA replication, transcription, expression, etc. (Am I getting the buzz-words right so far ?) But even for an educated person with no superstition to preclude sincere thought, it’s downright hard to *see* how more significant, large-scale morphological change can occur. Sean Carroll’s book(s) on evo-devo were a huge eye-opener for me, but that just underscores the point : it takes some real effort to understand evolution. I think the more books there are that are aimed for non-biologists, books that have clear discussions like todays post on changing chromosome numbers, the better.
Oh, and more films like “Exposed”, that help the puiblic understand what a buch of horse’s asses the creos actually are.
John Hamilton, I read Pharyngula back when PZ wrote it on a piece of paper and mailed it to a bunch of random people. We all wrote down our comments and sent it back to him. We didn’t even have internet shorthand back then. We had to explain in full sentences that we were lol-ing. Up hill. Both ways.
@90
I meant “Expelled”, not “Exposed”
Oops.
I first read PZ’s blog way back when he was hosting it on a computer in his own lab. I remember how proud he was the first time his daughter posted a well reasoned refutation of one of the common arguments for the existence of god on her blog.
I read Pharyngula back when this blog was written down into volumes individually copied by scribes and distributed by proto-liberals on a pilgrimage to woodstock 1669. I still have my copy of “Pricipia Cephalpodae Coitvs per diem”
Oh yeah gir
I read Pharyngula back when PZ was still using crayons and we had to travel to the kindergarten to read what he was on about. Being yet unable to speak, we had to use finger puppets to communicate with him and we didn’t ever bother with intertube language like ROFLMFAO becuase it was physically impossible to demonstrate.
And we did it all for 25 hours a day with nothing but the lick of me Dad’s old workboot to sustain us. Whilst living in a shoebox.
I remember Pharyngula back when comments were multiple choice. You had to pick from four canned options, and just post and post and post. It’s much better now. Usually.
@82, Amplexus
I don’t want to hijack this into a physics-boosting thread :-} but physics is really a tiny, tiny field. Newton’s laws (3, but one is redundant IMO), Electromagnetism (4 Maxwell’s equations), Thermo (3-4 more laws, and most pros get by without really understanding them that well), and maybe 6 for quantum. Sure, I’m simplifying, but not by much. Anybody in our department can teach any undergraduate class, and 90% of the content can be derived from the same compact “cheat sheet.” And when you get to grad school, you just take the same subjects all over again. I’m guessing that if you compiled the “new” words that a physicist learns from high school to PhD, the list would be in the low hundreds.
The intro biology texts I struggle with have 1000-ish pages with 5-10 boldfaced new words per. I’m sure that, just like I did in physics, you make some sort of adaptation (or is it selection ?) that allows you to grok the field, but my point is/was, it ain’t easy.
Gotta run – student’s with their pesky questions..
Oh, goodie, someone used the word “whilst”!
Psssst…. here’s a wall post on the anti-Expelled Facebook group:
gosh andrew.. i figured somebody would say that.. every person always dodges this question by saying “its not just one thing.. there is just too much evidence”.. just pick one!!! shouldnt be too hard…that way we can pick a piece of “solid” evidence apart..
maybe you will find its not as scientific as you thought..
Oh noez, he’s going to destroy evilution!!1!1!one!
Does John Hamilton read this blog?
Amplexus at 94, that’s nothing. I first read PZ’s blog way back when he was hosting it on a computer in his own lab.
So, was Pharyngula one of the blogs to which your comment was posted or not? (If not, I’d suggest that the lack of clarity in the post above may be an indication of why.)
Excellent use of numbers, by the way. With your command of percentages, I can’t possibly fathom why you haven’t got tenure at one of the nation’s leading universities.
Another case of expulsion by Darwin’s Meanies!
Dan @ 100 writes:
Does John Hamilton read this blog?
Yes, Dan, he does. John first read PZ’s blog way back when PZ was hosting it on a computer in his own lab.
PZ,
I began coming here before your infamous reputation hit the headlines. I have to say I arrived via Carl Zimmer’s blog, The Loom. I have since discovered many other blogs on the Seed site. I frequent them often but, I have to say The Loom and Pharyngula remain my favorites. Evolutionary biology is a fascinating topic, lay person I be, and I enjoy the company of fellow atheists. I am new to atheism or new to admitting it. This after a lifetime of being surrounded by Santos, Catholicism, and doubt.
I am definitely a fan of yours. However, I do not plan to grow a beard. Although, at my age it’s a distinct possibility.
I read Pharyngula back when he carved it on cave walls.
@Jeff #97, spot on! I feel the same way about physics and biology.
I first read Pharyngula back when Jebus created life on Earth and everything had to be written in DNA codons, the language of Gawd. I remember how proud he was when his daughter wrote out her first irreducibly complex DNA sequence. Ahhh, them’s were the days.
Whoops!
Rub it in. Do you know how long it’s been since someone used the word “shan’t?”
I’m tellin’ you. Don’t hold your breath on that one. Oh! And to those of you who are going to be posting the word “shan’t” after this, do me a favor and don’t. That’s just being patronizing, and that’s the sort of thing that could drive me to stick my head in a toaster oven.
eleventhwheel @ 67 Uh oh,”spiritually uplifing” ? That smacks of religion and in direct opposition of calling yourself a liberal atheist. I am a plain atheist, and from what I have read over time on this blog, I can even go as far to say that I am an absolute atheist, totally devoid of anything that hints of relgion. Welcome, anyway.
Oh yeah? The first time I read PZ’s blog I was working with a team of geologists and paleontologists that discovered an ancient blogstone written by PZ. The blog topic was “Be a Austropithicus Day.”
I read Pharyngula back when…
wait…
you guys can READ?
damn.
I never made it past the point where this blog was passed down as an oral tradition.
Long time lurker and first time poster.
I was drawn here by the evo/creo debate, but I’ve stayed for the tasty atheism. I think this site, and sites like it, are valuable because there are people out there who can be made to see reason, but may need to be shown the way.
I’m a programmer, and not a scientist, but I value logic, truth, and reason – and this site dishes that up in spades.
Good work PZ & team!
In order for me to read my first taste of Pharyngula I had to extract it from the mouth of a Mammoth before it was flash-frozen standing upright before it suffocated.
Fortunatly, the copy was still fresh!
I’m hoping by now that you have all heard of Bill Maher’s great outburst against that moronic sheepherder from Rome and all the flak that is pouring forth from the insane masses over his truthful and forceful remarks. Good man, Bill Maher,don’t retract any of that religious crap and just keep hammering away. Not enough people in the media, except us, are willing and gutsy to stand up the the insane rabble and let them know that the whole country is not deranged. Keep at it Bill!
@ #77 Ben Franklin:
I think you’ll find that creationist bloggers like to moderate comments before publishing them. This allows them to filter out the best-written comments from our ilk.
I’m curious, how many sites did you find that have comments disabled completely?
Hey Bride of Shrek,
You with PZ in kindergarten? So you met his trophy wife(tm) all the way back then?
Having seen the grade school pictures posted sort of recently, I can see PZ making his decision who to chase early, but I’m still trying to figure how he convinced her.
I met a woman once who’d started publishing as an undergrad using her high-school boyfriend’s surname because she was sure they’d eventually wed. I guess that sort of forward thinking isn’t completely impossible. (They were happily married when I met her as a PhD candidate.)
(de-lurk)
I originally stumbled across “Planet of the Hats” (my, how long ago it seems) and injured myself laughing. I hunted down the author with desperate deeds in mind, until I finally found Pharyngula. There I saw a Friday Cephalopod, and fell hopelessly in love.
Newcomers, enjoy. I always do.
(resume lurking)
#38 – Bill
*sigh* I’m going to have to change my name to something less common. This isn’t the first time someone with the same name has said things that I wouldn’t want associated with me. Ok. I’m starting my own blog so that I can differentiate myself from all of the other Bills. From now on I shall be the ThirdMonkey! (Don’t bother linking to my blog. I haven’t posted anything yet…)
I came to this blog from a news article about PZ’s expulsion that I saw on IMDB. I made my first comment when I thought PZ was being unnecessarily cruel but before I had gotten a real feel for the site. I was immediately and rudely accused of being a concern troll, but I explained myself and in turn was warmly welcomed. I’ve been reading and commenting daily ever since.
“It was also very revealing and unmasks support for Darwin isn’t based on evidence but on a world view that is hostile to religion.”
Well done, Bill! Now you’re getting things HALF right! Have a cookie!
I’m an old lurker- I’ve been reading for about a year, but, coward that I am, only started posting a few months ago and only occasionally.
I’d say that I’m making a resolution to be active, and I sort of am, but I really only ever comment when I have something to say. Pharyngula is the kind of place with ferociously intelligent people, so everything I could say usually gets said, and it usually gets said better than I ever could have said it.
Time to give the Fundies the comeuppance they have coming. Go PZ! I don’t like that the “expelled” BS is getting so much attention from the science-sphere. Stupidity will die of its own gravity. Let it be ignored please. Let it pass like a bad meal.
Smart_Heretic
A few months ago I spent several hours saving many of the science articles to my delicious account. As I regularly remind people, PZ’s science writing is as good as anything that I have read in the blogosphere. It’s a shame that more people don’t at least afford him that recognition (as well as for all of the work that he has done to encourage good science education) when they attack him for what amounts to calling a spade a spade.
One of the best things about Pharyngula is that seemingly innocuous posts – usually the ones that PZ sticks up when he is busy – end up going off at a tangent. 500 comments later, the smoke clears and a great time has been had by all.
Those are the threads that really highlight how knowledgeable some of the regular commenter’s are. I don’t mind admitting that I am often left in awe at the breadth of knowledge that some people have, and I feel like an intellectual lightweight by comparison. Keep up the good work, everyone! :)
I first read Pharyngula back when Jebus created life on Earth and everything had to be written in DNA codons, the language of Gawd.
Wes had DNA? Why, I was reading this blog back when we had to use RNA affixed to clay particles, long before that newfangled DNA had evolved.
Sangy #120 – I know how you feel. How can one intellegently add to a conversation when the likes of brokenSoldier, Ichthyic, Cuddlefish and all of the Molly winners are typically faster on the posts?
Thanks to them, I don’t really have to say anything, even my secret inner poet gets fed. I just have to sit back and watch as the Creo’s are torn to pieces.
I dunno, folks… I’ve been reading PZ for a looooong time, but I don’t remember him on FidoNet. :0
I’ve started to follow this blog for about a month now and I now find myself hitting F5 on this tab more often that I’d like to admit. Your last post on chromosome numbers was fantastic! I just fear the day where you will have to do delegate away your flooding inbox, as Jesus himself recently had to.
Thank you for putting time into your writing We very much enjoy it. Cheers PZ.
I’m with Sangy–I’ve read Pharyngula for more than a year, but I don’t comment often. By the time I’ve read through the comments, most of what I’d have said has been said and I’m not one to ‘me too’ a blog unto death.
Re: the double postings. I know it happens to me – usually prefaced by a “there was a comment submission error” message. So if you see this exact same post ‘descend’ (without any mutations at all) you will have proof it was not intelligently designed and there is no god. ;)
I’m not sure what John Hamilton’s problem is. There was talk of him reading this blog.
While we probably have no hope of changing the minds of the ID/Creationists we can help improve the knowledge for the Bi(ology)-Curious. I know it worked for me. I once heard an ID-proponent’s speech and even if I didn’t ‘know the “science”‘ I instantly knew everything he said was hinkey. Now I know more about why it simply sounded very wrong. Also, this blog, PZ’s links to other info, and a little background reading can go a long way towards convincing even some diehard Christians that there are people proclaiming to be speaking on their behalf that are lying with every word they speak.
Is it a coincidence that when I was reading a story about “No Intelligence Required” on Slashdot (http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?no_d2=1&sid=08/04/21/0017251) this morning their quote of the day at the bottom of the page was:
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig. — Lazarus Long, “Time Enough for Love”
And just a few minutes ago my PC was playing the Goose Creek Symphony song, “Still Dumb (After All These Years)”
[ducking just in case there’s a smote coming] ;)
Some additional thoughts for ID/Creationists to keep in mind:
1. If you heard a wonderful proof of god (or a disproof of evolution) somewhere please go check the source information.
2. Please look up the word “Theory” in the dictionary. What you’re looking for is the ‘scientific’ one – not the ‘I have a hunch’ one.
3. If your only source of information on the topic is from a theological perspective you really should check out some information from the scientific establishment. No, not the Discovery Institute!
4. Please refer to the list of discredited and even refuted by Creationists arguments at http://www.AnswersInGenesis.com. No reason to look silly to your co-conspirators.
5. Always remember this (repeat out loud 50 times, if necessary): Your ignorance is NOT proof.
6. Be patient, lurk, read, re-read, learn, understand, enjoy, relax.
7. Do not – I repeat, do NOT taunt the scientists here. They will tear you to bits and you may not even realize it until it’s too late. Cuttlefish will make it rhyme! ;)
8. Do not start telling us how wonderful the “No Intelligence Required” movie was until you have followed and read the content at all the links from http://www.ExpelledExposed.com. I’ll bet you didn’t realize you paid that money and sat through that entire movie only to be lied to, did you?
I’ll stop with eight – that’s a nice round number for this blog.
I found the blog while researching why I was unlikely to go see Expelled. I was thinking of just going and heckling it but it hasn’t even opened in this backwater Canadian city.
Anything that puts creationists/IDists in thier place intrigues me. The comments pass by too quickly to comment though.
@#59: I grew up in Indiana and yes, yes they do talk like that lol Well, it’s usually a little more subtle, for example: “Oh I spoke with so and so today and her daughter just got her doctorate from a school in New York. you know, (whispers with her hand aside her face) she’s one of those science types.” “oh my, does she still go to church? I don’t reckon they have any up there in New York though. She must be so sick of living in a blue state.”
Honestly, that was a lot like an exchange my mother was the focus of. She mentioned how I was sick of politics and they thought she meant liberals…what she really meant is the lack of science funding and the alteration of data to fit the W agenda…ahh good times. :p
old new guy – just last couple of years decided once and for all that I’m atheist. So in trying to find out how I should be in this new “way of being”, I like to check out the atheist discussions. I’m using your RSS feed so check here once or twice a day sometimes.
Don’t comment much because others can usually say it better and I figure reading comments generally just get the blood pressure up. Or not – nice sometimes to see that there are other atheists out in this screwed up world.
Not sure how I stumbled onto your blog other than maybe boingboing.net – maybe it was that hiphop video that was linked from somewhere else.. I also like science and sometimes like to tease the old brain trying to figure what youse guys are talkin’ ’bout.
I feel like I am in enemy territory with all the calamari and other jokes on the BAs blog but I have lurked here once and while as well for a time.
Professor Myers,
Would you consider writing a book for children 10 and under?
One with beautiful illustrations that I could read to my kids at bedtime?
HI new folks.
We can be brusque here from time to time, but we’re overall pretty nice–and fun (and I’m missing skeptics in the Hub because I’ve been grading all frigging day and am too tired to leave the house. Maybe I should have skipped going down the block for the Marathon)
Erm, I was led to believe that there would be BBQ?
dunderjeep, I suspect it would be about celaphopods. That’s actually a sweet idea. I can see it now; “Find Octy!” Can you find Octy the Octopus camoflagued in 5 pictures?
I’m new! Fark and Scientific Advocate sent me here. I like a lot of what you blog about. Especially, how to help change the nations idea about evolution. Your work was part of the inspiration that is leading me to pursue a PhD. I has also led me to focus on non-science major biology education. At my university it is getting better but still not great.
Keep being the big mean scary scientist, you’ve got a lot of people quietly work to the same end : )
Erm, I was led to believe that there would be BBQ?
Nope. Punch and pie.
Hello everyone.
I’ve been a reader for some time and have made a few comments. I now get Pharyngula withdrawl if I don’t read it everyday. For example, I didn’t read it yesterday and last night I had a dream that two creationists came to the door disguised as two very similar looking cephalopods. The jig was up though when they handed thier literature to me and it was full of bad grammar and poor spelling.
I work at a Canadian University and I would like to make a comment about my observations here regarding fundies.
Ten years or so ago I wouldn’t have even noticed if there was a fundie presence on campus or not.
Now they own the third floor of the student centre, I call it the Cult Mall.
I do not know how aware the student body is that some of their student fees goes to support offices and photocopying etc for these cults.
Some of the people who manipulate these groups and use the religious centre have nothing to do with the University and provide money from outside.
They have bible study in the group study rooms when there are legitimate groups waiting to use them.
I have not been able to get the administration to respond to my concerns, even just to tell me what the rules are.
Muslim sects arguing with each other in the halls whose truth is right.
A general creep towards a domineering dynamic that has
NOTHING TO DO WITH EDUCATION!
Anyway, I could go on with postering, parking and so on but I’m sure you get the idea.
Thanks for lisening and please help me.
PS; I’m not so great at grammar and punctuation myself so please don’t hesitate to correct me so I may avoid the
foot in mouth thing.
I read Pharyngula back when PZ was a pharyngula. I helped kill and bury in the back garden PZ’s very first troll.
Been here for some time now. Sure beats looking at TV. PZ’s blogs are interesting, but the comments are a laugh in! It’s like having Groucho Marx and Lily Tomlin over for dinner. Thanks for entertaining an old lady.
Does anybody here know how to get the knot out of my underwear?
I used to read this blog while living in a hole in the ground covered by a sheet of tarpaulin AND I WAS LUCKY!… Actually, I’ve been a daily visitor for the past several years and like #112 above, I came for the evo-devo and stayed for the godlessness, that and for the possibility of a good disemvoweling now and again…
jeff @ 90:
Sure, it’s not hard to see how “micro-evolution” can happen, … But even for an educated person with no superstition to preclude sincere thought, it’s downright hard to *see* how more significant, large-scale morphological change can occur.
I have never understood the whole “micro-” vs “macro-evolution” dichotomy. It just seems so obvious to me that after a sufficient number of small changes you’ll have something completely different than what you started with.
@MAJeff – ok, vive la résistance!
OT – There’s an awesome review of Expelled over at MSNBC:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24239755/
“To lay blame for the Holocaust upon Charles Darwin is to engage in a form of Holocaust denial that should forever make Ben Stein the subject of scorn not because of his nudnik concern that evolution somehow undermines morality but because in this contemptible movie he is willing to subvert the key reason why the Holocaust took place — racism — to serve his own ideological end.”
Well I was reading Pharyngula during the Great Expansion, as all energy and matter was hurtling outward from the singularity. It was really really hard to read the contrast of normal matter and dark matter.
I think I found PZ aroiund the Scooter Libby trial. I saw this strange word linked from firedoglake, and anon, wonders I beheld.
Sheesh, I forgot one major problem with Pharyngula – I miss so much when I go to sleep. I read these comments the next day, and I rue the night for missing the action. Especially a good creotroll beat-down.
The story of PZ getting kicked out of the line for Expelled is the reason I found his blog, so I guess I do have that to thank Mathis for!
One thing that *amazes* me, now that Expelled is finally out, is that I have some good friends – fine citizens, all of them – who actually *liked* Ben Stein. I think (or hope) the poor tads are just too young to recall Nixon-era Ben Stein. They seem to think of him as some cuddly creature from Comedy Central. Well, they were wrong.
Etha #2, so sorry to disillusion you, but “forgiveness” is a virtue that long predates Christ. Its origins have absolutely nothing to do with a religious movement ostensibly sponsored by and/or craftfully promoted by countless ideological adherents since the original handful since the birth of some particular fellow a few thousand years ago.
Believe it or not.
But, if you don’t believe that forgiveness cannot have had anything other than a “Christian Origin”, you will have to explain to many of us why my dog, for example – who I promise does not practise any religion of ANY kind – knows PRECISELY how to forgive me for neglecting to take her out for a shit.
Ya know? Come to think of it? She’s better at that “forgiveness” thang – in terms of AUTHENTIC SINCERITY – than ANY HUMANS I know, INCLUDING that appallingingly hypocritical group of human beings calling themselves “Christian”.
As for all the newcomers – SIGH – I suppose it was inevitable, but it’s like barking in a puppy-factory. It’s already flirting near the limit of being able to read through most of the comments a few years ago. Over the last year I’ve noticed that the old guard commentators have become quite diluted in the flood of nubies – and that one of the best reasons for cchecking in on Pharyngula has now become severely attenuated: the “conversation impulse” – and I mean the more dedicated variety – amongst the commentators is going extinct. I don’ty know how a loss like that can be remedied. Nice while it lasted, I suppose…
If we can write genetic algorithm based software to produce results superior to those of analytic programs,
why can’t we prevent multiple submission of comments?
Phoca wrote:
Don’t blame Stein for those kind of lies, blame Kevin 11, the screenwriter. Kevin Eleven is a lying sack of santorum.
I do wish when you first arrive and accidently put your foot in it Orec would use a rubber chicken to the side of the head instead of the fresh cow pie. And is Bill @38 one of those lightly injured pray animals that parents drag back for the young to practice their hunting skill on? Or did he just forget to use a smiley face?
The professor has a great site.
Thanks
Greetings!
I decided to check out your blog recently after seeing it recommended in a number of Dawkin’s books. I now spend the majority of my lunch breaks reading here! Thanks for making the daily grind that much easier to endure.
I’m new. I started reading shortly after PZ appeared on “The Skeptics Guide to the Universe.” Then came the whole Expelled from Expelled thing and I was hooked.
Even though science is not my occupation, I’ve always been a bit of a science geek. I tried the whole religion thing for many years. I was even a youth group leader for a while. But I was never able to really believe. The rise of fundamentalism drove me further from religion.
So it has been great to discover the voice of reason and science this past year. A new I-pod lead me to podcasts which lead me here. And the whole journey has lead me to realize that I had been an atheist at heart for many years.
Thanks for all the work you put into keeping this place running PZ. Your efforts do make a difference to people.
I also just recently found this blog, either from the “Expelled from Expelled” stories, or as a link from Dawkins.nethttp://www.slate.com/toolbar.aspx?action=print&id=2189178
I’ve posted a couple of items, but nothing hard-hitting. I’ll probably lose my job soon since I spend entirely too much time reading voraciously and following the wonderfully insightful links that you all provide. I’ve even contributed a link to an interesting article from slate.com (for us laypeople!) on manufactured uncertainty, skepticism and the paranoid style in science today, but I’ll share it here as well:
One of the reasons I’m here is to satisfy my quest for knowledge, but to also find the tools to combat my brother’s ludicrous statements, as he recently came out of the creationist/literalist/fundie closet (though we think he might have been forced in there by his S.Baptist wife and in-laws in the great state of TX)
@146:
from the MSNBC link:
“As an antidote we get deep, sincere ruminations mainly from some monumentally pompous thinker no one has ever heard of who is nevertheless stylishly attired and living in a gorgeous apartment in Paris.”
Hahaha — now that’s gotta be Berlinski he’s talking about…
#99 Hold your fire, looks like we may have a civil discussion over on Facebook after all….sorry for the interruption.
“pray animals”?
How appropriate :-)
Does anybody here know how to get the knot out of my underwear?
no, but you could always try freeballing.
Pagan seeking to learn about MET here. I came over from Panda’s Thumb a couple of years ago and keep lurking. I’m not an atheist, but it still blows my mind how people can be so obtuse as to disregard all the evidence in favor of MET.
Sometimes it’s hard to get through the theistic bashing here, but goodness knows you all have cause! You’re far more patient than I am. (My standard response: My Goddess is perfectly capable of working through evolution. You mean your God isn’t?)
Back to lurking and learning.
4. Please refer to the list of discredited and even refuted by Creationists arguments at http://www.AnswersInGenesis.com. No reason to look silly to your co-conspirators.
don’t forget to send them on to the Index to Creationist Claims after they soil themselves on AIG’s site.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html
Well, this will probably get lost in the flood of comments, but I was looking around earlier today for the post on various clotting cascades and the relationships of the genes involved in them. I didn’t find it then, and I didn’t find it this afternoon in the list linked to by this entry. Can anyone point me at it?
I was there, sysop of PSG Vancouver (122/4, later 153/4). For a while I was deputy moderator of FEMINISM, helping deal with a (slightly) different set of fundies.
Does anyone remember that 1970s After School Special in which Helen Hunt did some angel dust and jumped out the high school window? I think james found her stash.
Arnosium Upinarum @ 151 You expressed my sentiments almost as I would have. The comments will increase substantially, and yet I can honestly say will involve a lot more religionists which will tend to overwhelm the atheists among us and require much time for scrolling and replying to a myriad of divergent opinions other than your own. It is impossible to keep the religionists out, and much time will be spent and wasted to determine who they are, what with all the ambiguity enmeshed in the comments.
You can not observe it.
the tens of thousands of papers published that actually HAVE observed it, in the field and in the lab, should have tipped you to how far off base you are.
a creobot who’s blind to the evidence.
what else is new?
Hey, is this that blog by that bad astrologer fellow. Name’s Phil Plat or something?
1970s After School Special
ROFLMAO!
damn, that made my day.
I’ve been reading John Hamilton since he used to post only once.
I knew John Hamilton. And you, Senator, are no John Hamilton.
I don’t know how came to be here, but it’s gotten infected, so I can’t leave. A Day without this blog is like a day without Some kind of website that I like reading a whole bunch.
Steve “Famous for My Word Ability Stuff” James
I’ve been reading Pharyngula since before my grandson, baby Jeebus, was a gleam in his father’s eye.
If you guys read my post about Zebra/horse hybrids, Pygmy horses and the Horse/donkey hybrid A.K.A: Mules. Also Jaguar/Lion hybrids.
The theory of common descent PREDICTS just this sort of thing. PZ’s article about chromosomes explains why this is possible.
here the wikipedia article about hybrid species(Complete with awesome pictures. : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_species
“Evolution is not based on facts. You can not observe it. It is based on evidence that is presented from only one world view and one point of view. There are more holes in evolution than swiss cheese.”
Actually, evidence is fact-based and tangible. A man in the sky is not.
Though if you prefer to say that a deity directs changes that occur over time, so be it. But those changes DO happen.
Science, evolution, blah blah bah. Can anyone here PROVE that the movie “The Matrix” isn’t based on a true story? All this “scientific evidence” may just be a simulated reality in everyones’ head. Can anyone really be certain that the observations which prove the age of the universe might not be part of a grand hallucination implanted in our minds?
I, for one, favor teaching this alternate theory of reality in our schools. To me, it best explains many things about life, and unless we encourage young scientists to pursue this avenue of thought, we may miss out on the greatest discovery of our time. What is Big Science afraid of? Why can’t we follow the evidence where it leads?
J. D.
Would that be squid pie?
Sorry for the lack of limericks recently.Any of you with a child and pregnant wife might be able to understand.
Thanks to all for the Pharyngula version of ‘The Four Welshmen’. I’ve been snorting and giggling through the whole thing. I’m getting strange looks from my son.
Pharyngula was featured on the front page of Wikipedia – one year? two years ago? I don’t remember. It caught my eye, I followed the link, and loved the blog. I’ve been a daily visitor ever since.
J.D. @ 176
You take the red pill – you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
“I think one of the problems with people “accepting” evolution, as compared to say a round Earth or gravity or other equally “controversial” issues, is that evolution is actually a very difficult thing to grasp.”
Well, it seems to me that dogs are a pretty intuitive way to grasp evolution. In just a few thousand years look at all those amazingingly different breeds based on human choice. They may all be the same species, but they sure don’t look it. Think great dane and chihuahua. In dog breeding you can see major changes in all kinds of things. The only reason they have stayed the same species is they all fill the same niche (please humans).
Any of you with a child and pregnant wife might be able to understand.
!
congratulations, Rich!
WOW, check this out:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24239755/
A little mainstream Expelled review!
Does it work in reverse? If I send PZ a baby to eat, do I get a bunch of young nubile virgins?
a billion years is a long time. how long do you think it took to clear the oceans of all that rust??? oh that’s right “god” violated his laws with a snap of his fingers.
Welcome, creationists, you half-brained fuckwits!
Sorry, I had to uphold the post about the intelligence of the regular commenters. :)
You…you…magnificent bastards!
Nobody can prove that we’re not in the Matrix right now: you are using solipsism to attack science. Solipsism is logically unassailable because it is unfalsifiable. From an unfalsifiable starting position, any old horse-shit can be held to be “potentially true”. Science allows us to establish that falsifiable propositions are false and that some other propositions are highly likely to be correct. Now at least we know that that’s all we can really know. Unfalsifiable propositions (e.g. “God/unicorns/leprechauns exists” or “We’re in the Matrix”) are indistinguishable from nonsense.
Was reading the blog regularly a year ago, quit a few months ago when I did not have time to surf the web, and now I started checking it out again.
Boy, Emmet, did you have the same miltant reaction to FSM when His story first came to light? Should JD have ended his question with [/sarcasm] or [/Poe]?
JD “What is Big Science afraid of? Why can’t we follow the evidence where it leads?”
Because science has already been there, done that and published a paper on it. This all came up over one hundred years ago. They’re afraid of wasting a lot of money and effort to endless re-argue the same subject over and over again. People want results from Big Science™; sharks with breasts, penis enlargement and stuff like that. Big Science™ has got to produce and ID an’t going to cut it. No Buck Rogers, not bucks, so to say.
Oh yeah? Read this, if you can.
Long day. My Reactoshite poeglasses darkened hours ago and haven’t lightened up (pun intended).
sharks with breasts
we’ll get to that right after we perfect the “sharks with friggin’ laser beams on their heads”.
still some work to do on that one.
By getting expelled from Expelled is P.Z. now the world’s most famous atheist? Also, can we expand Godwin’s Law to include movies as well?
Now I know how men wanting to meet women in chat rooms feel. I am here to see some creationist rhetoric and insults, but all I find is fellow evilutionists.
Brownian-
Yeah, I was in a rush when I posted the entry today, and it shows, sorry. My input is usually superior to that.
I did indeed post my essay here on pharyngula to get comments and input as to how it could be improved. It probably would have been better if I had your input, but take a look at it anyway.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/thieves_and_liars.php post #54.
But my count was based only on pro-Expelled sites. Virtually every site I submitted it to that was not pro-religion/pro-expelled did post it. (no surprise there)
Josh- You are right about the moderation at religion/creation sites. I didn’t note all the ones that did not enable responses, but it was, at best guess, about 10%.
got an email from jesus today. he says he’s not coming back to earth for awhile. something about his dad’s predilection about visiting each planet with sentient beings and having to be cloned and staying for 33 years. he says being on tour is a bitch.
Classic defense mechanisms when faced with unassailable logic and reason: avoidance and/or changing the subject. Or, in my brother’s case, accusations of ad hominem attacks. (attacking the idea is not attacking the man!)
Man, since this seems to be the “introduce yourself, new people!” thread I’ll say hi. I’ve been reading for a while, first met PZ when he was in Michigan for ConFusion 07, but didn’t come back to start reading until earlier this year. And like some others, I find it hard to post after Cuttlefish, MAJeff, etc. do so well before me :) Though it’s been fun joining the conversation at times.
I’ve been a lurker for about 3 years, posted a comment once, I think, in a call for lurkers to come forward. I come here (several times daily) for not only the great information but the incredible entertainment.
More of a bird person than a cephalopod person, but did have the opportunity to go “beachcombing” in Utah’s Tropic Shale not long back and now have a small, but nice, collection of cephalopods from the Cretaceous (Sciponoceras and Metoicoceras.
PS – @#178 Small correction from a longtime Python geek: In the sketch in question, they were “Four Yorkshiremen”.
The evil, atheist PZ Meyers! You’re a bad, bad man! *snerk*
I found a place making stuffed dolls in your image (down to the little professor briefcase!) Not really graven idols, but almost as great.
Ben Franklin – now that I go back and read your comment I remember reading it when that thread was still live. I think it does a good job, and is a nice complement to the one raven(?) did that documents the REAL expulsion cases, where fundies/religious nutballs have fired/forced resignation/killed/beat up evolution supporters.
As for the thread’s original topic, I’m a very long-time lurker (not to get into the one-up game, but I’ve been lurking Pharyngula since before the Dover trial got underway) who came over from Panda’s Thumb. I have started commenting, occasionally, but as some other long-time-lurkers have said as well, with so many intelligent and excellent posters there’s either not much to add or you just kinda get lost in the shuffle.
Not that that should be discouraging – everyone seems to be of a welcoming bunch here.
Yes, you are right NatVision, thanks. Too busy giggling.
Where did you do your “beachcombing”? Around the town of Tropic? I spend a fair amount of time in the Colorado Plateau, and I’d love to do some beachcombing too.
Bring back pirate mode!
#162 is the only creo to show up in a hunnert comments and everybody jumps on his head! How impolite! He’s JAMES! He might be an actual APOSTLE (though perhaps a trifle Altsheimerish past his 2000th birthday).
So cut him a break. He doesn’t say how much Swiss cheese. Gram amounts typically have no holes at all. Any when you buy Swiss cheese, the holes are FREE! And calorie-free and cholesterol -free, too. How cool is that?
I dropped out of the U biz when I lost interest in my subject (and I have, to say the least, no special gifts as a teacher). But I visit for the more congenial (ah, screw it, SMARTER) company.
In Expelled the arguments for evolution sounded like something you expect from an attorney (appeal to emotion or appeal to authority) rather than appeal to rational thought. All you see here on this site is “hurray for our side” as opposed to a step by step explanation of exactly how life began and then progressed to the life we see about us. If life has a natural origin then it should be reproducable in a lab by bringing back the same conditions.
In Expelled … the emotional content of the evolution proponents is a dead giveaway to any objective observer that there is massive uncertainty in this position. I’m no fan of Dembski but he has a stronger case that life does not have a natural cause then Dawkins various claims of certainty of his % estimates God is no real.
What is totally evident to any observer is that Dawkins became aware of just how stupid and bigoted (unscientific) his opinion is under the questioning of Ben Stein.
All the people in the theater started laughing at Dawkins during this seequence.
Earlier in the movie several people at different times would shout out something (hard to understand them) as they left the movie.
Berlinsky wasn’t impressive, too haughty, but he showed how far from regular science the beliefs in evolution are. PZ comes off as someone who hates religion without much basis for that opinion as do all the other supporters for evolution.
The inability of evolution supporters to engage in a civil discussion is strong evidence against evolution.
If the evolution supporters here really wanted to support their position the right way they would all chip in real cash to hire PZ Myers and Ken Miller to debate Bill Dembski, Wells, Behe and anybody else Discovery wanted to put up.
Have an extended online discussion. Hire both sides for pay — their normal consulting fees. What would be cool about that is that high school students could go to their biology teachers and ask questions when PZ or Miller failed to answer convincingly. Similarly, when Dembski or Behe looked shallow then that would take down the ID side.
All the nasty words and this anger here on this forum suggests that Darwin’s team hates religion and knows it can’t win in a fair open discussion.
I for one would put up a pro-rata share of the cost of hosting the debate. Let Darwin’s supporters place their $s when their mouths are. What would be cool is that if Darwin wins are loses the net effect will wind up in high school biology classes and nullify Kitzmiller. Evidence will prevail rather than a fiat ruling from a guy who doesn’t understand a word of science on either side of the argument before him.
Right now Ben Stein rules. He helped Dawkins make an absolute fool of himself. Even if Darwin was basically right, Dawkins has made it look like like evolution is total hokum. Dawkins really damaged the evolution cause and you guys don’t want to admit it. PZ’s impression was simply that of a person who doesn’t like religion. He came off as bigoted rather than rational. The NCSE comes off as small minded.
So the right move is issue Ben Stein a challenge. Have the strongest proponents for both sides step forward and duke it out in a public format on the Internet. If you think evolution would win then guys here would relish the combat. That is how to take on ID. Have a fair fight. Else Ben Stein prevails.
Sorry to disappoint you Bill28 (actually, I’m not), but science doesn’t work that way. If you think evolution is wrong, present your evidence here; don’t prattle on about edited interviews.
That is how to take on ID.
heh. He’s shifted the burden without even realizing it most likely.
this is your brain on religion.
any questions?
The NCSE comes off as small minded.
yes, all those pesky little facts of theirs.
*rolleyes*
I’m also a bit of a lurker. I started coming here because of Seed, which I’ve been getting since number 4 or 6. I liked the section in the magazine and started checking the blog once in a while. But I have to admit that I’ve been reading it a lot more assiduously after the event related to the ID movie that shall not be named so as to reduce the number of search-engine hits! I was very happy recently when PZ accepted to be my friend on Facebook! And now the welcome! Wow, he’s not just smart, he’s also sooooo nice! :)
Arrrggggghh! Most o’ ye scurvy swabs don’ recall ’twas like
‘board the fine frigate pharyngula when PZed got his first
command, now he’s been elevated to the bleedin’ admirality
an’ cast off PIRATE MODE, the flamin’ blog reads like a Sunday sermon! Now a new batch of lubbers comes aboard, put ’em to work I say! Swab the decks, trim the main stays, heavy weather is comin’, garrr. Ye creotards, walk the plank!
“If life has a natural origin then it should be reproducable in a lab by bringing back the same conditions”……..rotf, good luck at deterimining what the conditions were let alone having the time to watch the mutations etc occur naturally.
@151,
You might feel a bit better to know that post #2 was sarcasm. Check out the P.S.
Bill28 #207 wrote:
If the Intelligent Design supporters really wanted to support their position the right way they would form a testable theory, engage in research, generate data, publish in peer review, and focus their attention on persuading the scientific community on the basis of the evidence — instead of looking to sway popular opinion through media circus events.
But you knew that, didn’t you?
I actually have known about this blog for a while (long-time lurker), but I started reading in earnest after hearing about your Sabot Adventure from Daylight Atheism.
Speaking of Expelled, I think it’s worth pointing out that I, an atheist, could have made a movie that was shot for shot exactly the same, and it would be regarded as brilliant satire. (I used to watch Win Ben Stein’s Money in high school, so in my heart of hearts, I can’t help but think that Ben is playing a joke on the whole world and at night, he sits in his armchair with a scotch on the rocks and chuckles to himself, thinking, “Ha! Those idiots all think that I actually buy this stuff?! Ha! Ha ha!”)
I will start by thanking you for allowing me a few lenthy comments from time to time – in advance. I admit without pause or shame that I am a very nitpicky and long-winded bitch. I’m one of those persons who usually checks “Spiritual” or “Not Applicable” on questions concerning religion. I lean heavily toward Scientific Pantheism; but I could never, however, dishonor nature’s complete indifference between animate and inanimate structure by attempting to personify it into some kind of living, breathing diety with a voice and “a plan”.
For some strange reason, the immense awe and mystery that is derived in contemplating the idea that a single, simple, particle of matter woke into life; that it propagated, adapted, and changed into all the diversity of life that we have and have not yet discovered; and that it continued its processes of adaptation to the point where it became fully capable of coming to know its own original self, is actually cheapened by the thought of it being the product of some unknown, invisible host with all the negative traits of an overgrown little boy with a bad temper and a bad attitude, spoiled rotten, unconscionable, predjudiced, angry, jealous, and cruel.
I’ve been reading Pharyngula for several months. I came across it doing internet searches on Darwin, evolution, and biology.
I am a survivor of religious child abuse. My parents took the “spare the rod, and spoil the child” verses in Genesis just a little too seriously. They quoted it frequently, along with an entire volume of other, memorized, all-too-recognizable verses. I won’t go into the physical realm of abuse because, other than the accompanying religious verse recitals, it was fairly well typical of belt lacerations, bruises, black eyes, busted lips, and inscrutible intimidations. Afterward, pennance often took place in a small dark closet (as in “locked in a”) where I was required to spend the entire incarceration in prayer (as in “praying out loud so they knew I wasn’t in there sleeping”). I had to pray to Jesus (since all prayer goes through him) to save my sinfully wretched little three-four-five-six-etc-year-old soul from the grasp that the wicked Satan had around my little bitty ankle in anticipation of jerking me straight into the tormenting depths of hell.
Should I mention that I’m claustrophobic and nyctophobic, even though much of the fear with both has been alleviated with the distancing of self from this particular tyrant’s flock? Should I mention that the worst nightmares that ever invaded my world of dreams took place between the ages of two and fifteen? Should I mention that they did not cease until one day, while my father was announcing his official resignation from the Eldership by using my recent incursion with the local law enforcement agency (we were cleared of any wrongdoing) as an excuse, I stood up in the middle of church service and called him a bold-faced liar in front of “God and everybody”. Should I mention that, not long after I turned sixteen, I forfeited my remaining high-school education and left home without any word of protest from either one of my parents? Is religion child abuse? I often feel like I am living proof that it is.
Needless to say, though I try to be tolerant, some of the people I have opportuned onto, in my relentless treks across the internet, are just too stupid for mere words; and I am not confusing ignorance and stupidity: I know the difference. I’m talking about the awe-inspiring stupidity where you are just stunned, voiceless and amazed, at the sheer and insane determination with which religious people cling to their mythical, supernatural creators, beliefs, ignorance, and medieval-minded superstitions. I find it much easier to deal with death through the idea that it will be just like it was before I was born – total nothingness – a conclusion that I drew at the age of twelve while trying, unsuccessfully thanks to a cheating scoundrel who sold me a fake lot of “reds”, to commit suicide. It is so much less stressful than believing all the while that I am probably going to end up in “the bad place”, gleefully tortured, for all of eternity, by evil spirits and demonic angels.
I thoroughly enjoy watching you folks as you idiscriminately snack on religious idealism and dogma. I see that some of you even have an eternal, anti-religious “bloodthirst” for fundementalists and their ideas that can only be equalled by the vampire’s excrutiating lust for blood in its instinctual pursuit of immortality. All I can say is – Cool!
I have a great fondness for a 16th century “priest-gone-rogue” whose name was Giordano Bruno, and who was burned at the stake on Feb. 17, 1600 by the Roman Inquisition. To, hopefully, leave you with a little smile, I am quoting him from the Yale University Press translation of his work titled “The Cabala of Pegasus”.
From the First Dialoge:
“SAULINO: …Therefore, our divine asses, being deprived of individual opinion and emotion, arrive at understanding only as it is whispered to their ears from the revelations – either by the gods or by their priests – and consequently they regulate themselves by no other law but their very own. Hence they turn neither to the right nor to the left, except according to the lesson and reason given by the halter or bit that holds them by the neck or by the mouth, not walking except as they are directed…
SEBASTO: …if the most certain thing that he must have is that he is an ass and wants to be an ass, cannot make a better life nor have better habits than those of an ass, must not expect a better end than that of an ass, nor is it possible, suitable, and worthy that he have glory other than an ass’s?…”
There is a better dialog where he discusses “losing” your divine Asses…
Fond regards…
“All the nasty words and this anger here on this forum suggests that Darwin’s team hates religion and knows it can’t win in a fair open discussion.”……the anger is: that a bunch of phoneys think they are so holy as to be correct.
@#204
Dee – Yes, just outside Tropic toward Cannonville on some private property I have access to. I work at Bryce and you can email me via my blog if you’re going to be in the area (best time is really right now after spring thaw – and before the bugs and snakes get bad – or in the fall after summer rains subside). There’s some pics of some of the stuff I found here and here.
Bill28, you do know that “Expelled” is propaganda, right? That it makes a bunch of claims that are flat-out not true, and hopes that audience members like you won’t bother to research the truth themselves?
Do you REALLY think that the producers of “Expelled” are presenting the actual evidence for evolution?
Do you like to be lied to?
Hi all, I’m Mike Lee . . .
And I’m . . . I’m *chokes back tears* a Pharyngula addict. It was such a simple thing, you know, falling in with the atheist/humanist crowd, and watching those Dawkins lectures on YouTube.
(cue audience: GASP!)
A-a-aand then I heard that evilutionist propagandist read ‘The Courtier’s Reply’ by the tentacled one, and like many a deceased feline, my curiosity got the better of me. Thus did I google . . . DAMN YOU GOOGLE!!! . . . this strange name, and placed my fool of a foot in the tar pit of the PZ science blog. Now, I’ve gone and been edumicated beyond my humble means, and still must keep that damned needle filled with scientific enlightenment near my vein at all times . . . metaphorically, donchaknow. House ain’t the only one can do it :b
So while I’d like to say I’d read this blog by the light of the first star to coalesce from the dispersing energies of the big bang, that’d be naught but vanity on my part.
Someday, I must resurrect Pirate Mode. I even have some ideas about how to do it. It will have to wait for a time when I’m not overwhelmed with work, and I don’t risk annoying all the other people on our server by adding something that would be another bandwidth suck. (But then, maybe I shouldn’t care. Hijacking resources without care for the other lubberly saps is what we do. Pirate, you know. And atheist to boot.)
Yeah PZ
I could see you with an eyepatch and a parrot on your shoulder.
Angel Rose Young @ #216 What an horrific childhood you had! No child should ever have to endure that, where were the authorities? As a believer that just sickens me. I hope life is better these days.
Louise – I was a 60’s child. I was born in a time of civil unrest. It was a time when non-whites had no real civil rights. They weren’t alone. The schools and the local law enforcement agencies knew what was going on, and I was not in a real uncommon situation. Back when I was growing up, no one got between parent and child. The child literally belonged to the parents. I do think though, that they would have drawn the line on parental molestation.
There I was at comment #215, bemoaning the lack of creos, when, at #216, a gout of creo tripe spews across the page as from a sliced-open swordfish.
So, reduced to it’s essentials, #216 says:
I edited it a little for sense. But I think I got the proper gist of it, except for the last paragraph:
Science isn’t really about debates–otherwise, Bruno’s incineration would have the sun still orbiting an unmoving Earth.
Even in the realm of faith, Protestants, without the support of a few undebatable armies, would be as extinct as Cathars.
But the debate now is really between Christianity and Islam. So let’s all have the big debate in Riyadh. Winner converts all.
Angel, I’d like to think it couldn’t happen today but that would be naive. My deepest sympathies to you.
Best. Blog. Ever. Even somebody like me who botches what he’s trying to say or asks what could be easily considered stupid questions, is accepted (or at least tolerated). Welcome.
True, I had a few drinks at the Boston Skeptics event, but the reference to “Cuddlefish” at #124 is still one of the cutest things I’ve ever heard.
MAJeff – Too bad you couldn’t make it tonight. Was hoping to meet you, and now with the After School Special refs, well… (Oh, to discuss “Leadfoot” or “Portrait of a Teenage Alcoholic”!…or were those full-length movies?) Hang in there with the dissertation. Soon it will all be but a bad memory. I’m in your field, by the way, and if you’d like any feedback on chapters or what have you I’d be happy to provide it.
Boston Skeptics: A very nice evening – my deepest gratitude, Skepchick!
Posted by: Bill28 | April 21, 2008 10:36 PM
Aside from the fact that basing your opinion of someone’s scientific position on the “emotional content” of what didn’t end up on the cutting room floor of a heavily edited propaganda film immediately places you in an untenable position to argue from, if you truly are as objective as you claim, you’d recognize that the film offered no scientific evidence affirming the ID position. But given your admitted reliance on the emotional content of an argument in determining its overall merit, I’d have to say that your actual position is anything but objective concerning the issues in the film.
Yet again, from this statement, an objective observer would draw the conclusion that you’re actually quite the Dembski fan, since you fail to realize that every life that has ever lived – and will ever live – is caused quite naturally. If you don’t believe me, get someone to rehash the “birds and bees’ talk with you… Now, if you want to discuss the origin of life, then no one has a particularly strong case that describes it, since life’s ultimate origin has yet to be scientifically explained – by anyone. On the other hand, Dawkins’ assertions that God is not real are quite rational whether you believe them or not, since God’s existence depends on the supernatural – and the existence of the supernatural has yet to be observed, in the scientific sense of the word.
Really? Any observer? I could have sworn I’ve seen plenty of testimonials from people who have viewed this film that state just the opposite. I’d wager money that a perusal of the many reviews of this movie out there would show that a great majority of the reviewers considered Stein and his cast as the unscientific – and concerning the Holocaust babble in the film – bigoted parties involved, not Dawkins. And I bet Dawkins doesn’t even know that he had the epiphany causing him to realize his views are unscientific — someone should probably tell him that, don’t you think?
Ditto on finding your blog because of Expelled. You have, in turn, inspired me to start a blog. :)
In Expelled, a stupid and bigoted Ben Stein hates to engage in a civil discussion, hates evidence, and can’t win in an open debate. Ben Stein makes an absolute fool of himself.
I beg to differ with you. I am #216 and I assure you I said no such thing. Please be careful with your citations – Too many people are too willing to react inappropriately and without regard, thought, or investigation.
Benjamin Franklin @#197:
I completely misread your comment #77, and I apologise for my snarky jerkness.
I reread your comment #54 on the Thieves and Liars thread, and it’s very good. Well done!
I’m not surprised so many pro-Expelled sites wouldn’t host it.
I’m a fairly new reader.
I read your blog and my boyfriend reads Perez Hilton.
We always have something to share.
Thanks for helping add quality & variety to the internet.
Need. Sleep.
Must. Stop. Reading. Comments. Section.
PZ and his commenters are the smartest funniest people on the internets. Reading them has become an addiction, quenching my thirst for living breathing knowledge but snatching away gobs and gobs of time.
What to do? What to do? I need sleep. I’ll just read one hundred more comments and then I will go to bed. I promise. Unless PZ posts again tonight…
I’m new to your blog. Found it after the expelled incident, but I’m surprised I hadn’t come across it before. I almost always seem to agree with your opinions and love writing. Keep at it.
We’re seeing a lot of new traffic here, and a lot of it seems to be people hunting down that infamous P.Z. Myers dude because they read about his evil ways in some publication, or saw the name in some really bad movie.
Well actually I stumbled upon the site as I was looking for something else within the same subject matter. I love to write, and I used to write in forums all the time. Mainly debated with Muslims on numerous topics. Back then, the forum topic I started which lasted for like 4 years. It ended up with over 18,000 posts…People now think 2,000 posts are large and it is to a degree. But unlike blogs where everything is on one page, there were numerous pages in the forums.
I find some of the reactions similar to those of atheists in here when confronted with something they do agree with such as Creationism.
I have an idea of how to deal with the Creotard Trolls that won’t require significant amounts of time or lengthy posts to refute. In stead of going into long rants showing just how stupid and/or ignorant they are, how about we simply respond with nothing other than links refuting or displaying evidence and the names of the logical fallacies used.
For example:
James #162 states:
“Evolution is not based on facts. You can not observe it….”
Simply reply with:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html
Then he states “It is based on evidence that is presented from only one world view and one point of view.” Insinuating that scientists are a bunch of naturalist world view, God hating atheists so any evidence would be biased.
Reply with:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA230_1.html
And if he had perhaps said something like “Biology is too complex, therefore God”. Which is to say that Biology is too complex for James to understand it thus in his arrogance he assumes that nobody could ever possibly understand it therefore it must have been created by God.
Reply with just:
Appeal to Ignorance.
So the actual response to James would simply be:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA230_1.html
Appeal to Ignorance
Three lines, short, simple, gets the job done. I’m pretty sure that every Creo-rant can be adequately refuted with nothing more than links to evidence, explanations, or refutations, or with the name of the logical fallacy used.
Of course, all honest inquiries should get the nice, thorough, polite explanations that they deserve.
If the producers of expelled had been up front with P.Z. would it have made any difference? would he have changed what he said? He doesn’t seem like the sort of man to pull any punches.
Random creationist BS hype about the expelled movie is flourishing at Baylor University. Which is bad because we’ve have plenty of creationist explosions in various non-science departments at baylor and some incident where that douchebag dembski was trying to establish a foot in the door at this university. I’m going to have to put lots of people in check over the coming weeks. Drat.
Random creationist BS hype about the expelled movie is flourishing at Baylor University. Which is bad because we’ve have plenty of creationist explosions in various non-science departments at baylor and some incident where that douchebag dembski was trying to establish a foot in the door at this university. I’m going to have to put lots of people in check over the coming weeks. Drat.
Random creationist BS hype about the expelled movie is flourishing at Baylor University. Which is bad because we’ve have plenty of creationist explosions in various non-science departments at baylor and some incident where that douchebag dembski was trying to establish a foot in the door at this university. I’m going to have to put lots of people in check over the coming weeks. Drat.
That is exactly right bill28. We are doing that experiment right now. Take one planet newly condensed out of a gas cloud. Bombard lightly with comets for a few megayears while simmering gently. Cool, and wait 800 million years.
It is going well, but we have used this recipe a few million times in a billion galaxies and it always works.
Acceptance of the fact of evolution runs around 99% among scientists in the USA. It is higher in Europe. The few who don’t freely admit they are religious fanatics.
Some prominent evolutionary biologists are Xian. Most Xians worldwide don’t have a problem with evolution. Science is not religion. Bill28 is a Death Cultist delusional moron.
Ben Stein was on TBN for half an hour.
His final words (I kid you not) “Religion leads to a compassionate loving place, science leads to killing people.”
He also mentioned PZ twice.
It seems like he might have a little problem with him.
I came across Pharyngula through the link in TGD about a year ago,have been reading daily and posting occasionally,esp.after comsuming too many alcoholic beverages,it just seems to help bring out the best in me LOL.I think this blog is so great because of the many brilliant commenters,and I happily lurk in the background and let others express the thoughts I have in a much better way,as previous posters have said too !
@216:
Angel Rose Young,it is because of the occasionally told horrifying and disgusting accounts of fundie child abuse from honest,warmhearted people like you that i like this blog more than any other,I congratulate you for surviving this shit,that to endure I can not imagine in my worst nightmares !
I must object. I thought evolution was about as obvious as gravity when learning about it in school. Evolution makes sense intuitively whereas the alternative: ‘poofing’ things into existence just doesn’t. I was never indoctrinated into any religion (except a lame christianity class at about eight that safe to say didn’t take) and maybe that makes the difference.
I’ve been here a while. generally enjoy articles and the ensuing discussions that take place in the comments.
Although it was odd witnessing someone being disemvoweled for the first time. I actually thought there was some error!
As for how I got here, I followed a link her from Orac’s Blog, back before it was absorbed by the ScienceBorg Collective.
I’ve been reading PZ’s blog since Richard Dawkins’ TGD came out. I was a reader there before I found the link here. And now I can’t stop. I come here several times a day to check the out the squids. :-) PZ, you do know that they eat live octupus here in Korea, right?
Anyways, Pharyngulites are a funny bunch of folks esp when they’re chewing on creationists..
Definitely new here (since the expelled from expelled blog), but seldom post, due to lack of time as I am reading all the comments!
Plus I have to work, and I am self employed.
But keep up the good work against the creationists, and I look forward to learning more, and be entertained at the same time.
But the debate now is really between Christianity and Islam. So let’s all have the big debate in Riyadh. Winner converts all.
”The final battle will not necessarily be between Islam and the West, but between those who value freedom and those who don’t” (Ibn Warraq)
I will surprise nobody here by observing the nyah-nyah lesson that The Expellers are trying to drive home:
“It’s not enough for nonbelievers/noncreationists to be smarter. If they intend to win the Superstition Wars then they must also be richer and have more babies.”
Now don’t get discouraged. Even while they’re having more babies, the godders (thanks Hank Fox) are whining about what they call the Great Evacuation (!) wherein many of their youth are leaving the church and not coming back.
As for their money, if they throw it away on lawyers who give them stupid advice about their First Amendment right to steal copyrighted material, then they’ll soon be joining the soup kitchen lineups.
So their strategy is not an unqualified success. Keep yelling the truth loud enough for those kids to hear. It’s our, and their, only chance.
I randomly followed a link here from Ben Goldacre’s Bad Science, just before all the fun started with teh stoopid movie (just lucky, really). I’m a daily lurker now, just occasionally throwing in a few comments from the peanut gallery, or when prompted to add something from an Aussie perspective.
The quality of blog and comments here is astonishing, thanks PZ and Pharyngulites!
I was looking up a Pratchett quote about geologists (you know the one, from Carpe Jugulum…) because a fairly sexy friend of mine is a geologist…
Anyway, I wandered onto PZ’s quote file and read the whole thing, then came here and pretty much the first post I read was Expelled!
so I was hooked
then I learnt the joy of whack-a-loon (the Minnesotan version of whack-a-mole) and I kind of got hooked
/lurk off
I’ve been reading here for a year. Wandered here from Janet’s page. PZ helped me understand “New” Atheists and why it’s necessary to speak out (I’m Canadian so it’s not as vital up here, even in Alberta…yet) and update my evolution knowledge.
Keep up the good fight. Every issue needs well and outspoken reps. It makes it easier to be moderate in verbal communication.
/lurk on
I first came across PZ on the Internet Infidels BBS where he, kindly and graciously, answered some damn-fool question I had about some aspect of biology, I forget what. (Not that I was ever an evolution-denier I hasten to add.)
Pharyngula had been going a long while even then though, and like others in this thread, I hesitate to post when others post more erudite, intelligent, thoughtful, and well-informed messages than I could ever dream to.
It’s taught me a lot, and entertained me too. Thanks everyone.
Lighten up, Angel. Every word in the quote is yours. I just left out some of the ‘in-between’ words, to make you sound more sensible. Just like Expelled handled the PZ & Dawkins interviews.
No, it isn’t. The post you quoted was #207, not #216.
Obviously all the Evo’s have been coming here rather than Yahoo Movies. Expelled has a solid B for User Reviews.
#48 Wrote,
Yes, isn’t religious behavior interesting? I’ve often wondered where the psychologists and psychiatrists are for this evo/creo debate.
SMI (serious mental ilness) is a huge problem globally and religious delusion, IMHO, seems to be part of the fuel for the fire…but no word on it from the psychs or shrinks. Hmmm, interesting. Anyone with links out there?
I for one would love to see the APA step into the fracus.
Kay…
Bias is not sorcery.
American Idol is not a model of epistemology.
If the majority of the US population did not beleive in tomatoes, tomatoes would not vanish from the country.
Argument From Popularity, in short.
Hello PZ,
Delighted to make your acquaintance and your refreshing if somewhat acerbic take on the World. However, rebutting the dim claims of Creationists is bit like shooting fish in a barrel-a bit too easy to be truly sporting – but it isn’t half fun! All power to your pen!
Mike
Not so fast, casz. Remember, we do have a creationist museum in Big Valley.
Anyway, it’s good to see another oil country refugee here (even if you might be from Calgary.)
As a newcomer myself it’s a pleasure to become a regular!
Rich #177:
If you are who I think you are, I hope everything is going well for you. I haven’t been to the Library in a while, usually because people haven’t been there. I hope that Charlotte and Miranda is well. I am still married to Amanda, and we may be joining the munchkin club in a few months.
P.S. No, I haven’t been converted by Pharyngula – I just hate the stupid and like seeing it flayed. (I’m aware that there may be cognitive dissonance in the last sentence).
Joy!
The pleasure is all mine..
Specifically surfing for science myself Pharyngula certainly serves my favourite species;)
ThnxPZ!!!
If the knot in your underpants is a fundie knot – there is no cure I know if except to become a ‘true Scotsman’…
I’ve often wondered where the psychologists and psychiatrists are for this evo/creo debate.
oh, they’re around…
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/316/5827/996
(I’m aware that there may be cognitive dissonance in the last sentence).
awareness of one’s own level of dissonance usually tends to keep it in check.
OF (!)
Sometimes it does, and sometimes emotions/anger/”the other head” take over and one’s reason isn’t sufficient to the task.
/unlurk
at Brownian #262
I’m in Lloydminster. While it’s a religious town (lots of churches), most people aren’t constantly witnessing. I guess they just figure everyone is just like them. At least reading here I’ve learned how to respond to their – uh – objections. As for the creationist museum trailer – there are enough tornados around to take care of that LOL
Don’t comment much because by the time I think of something to say, others have already said it and better:)
/lurk
Holbach #168: Yeah, it’s rather depressing, isn’t it?
hexatron says in #256:
“Lighten up, Angel. Every word in the quote is yours. I just left out some of the ‘in-between’ words, to make you sound more sensible. Just like Expelled handled the PZ & Dawkins interviews.”
Lighten up? I don’t see where I came off to be intense in any way. I was simply pointing out your error in citing the comment number. You apparantly did not even bother to go back and check the validity of my contest (which I see as a form of intellectual fatalism). I made no mention whatsoever of the “Expelled” abomination at any point in my post.
Those last two sentences are completely revealing. You changed the “in-between” words of this person’s post in order to “make more sense” of it. As a lover of language, particularly the English one, I can assure anyone who reads this post that through the changing and/or elimination of “in-between” words, particularly those of a prepositional nature, and as well as the definite and indefinite articles, one can tilt (or twist) the overall meaning of another’s words to one’s own benefit. As you said yourself: “Just like Expelled handled the PZ & Dawkins interviews.”
MartinM says in #257:
“Every word in the quote is yours.
No, it isn’t. The post you quoted was #207, not #216.”
Thank you MartinM for saving me the time of having to re-read the comments to find the correct post, and for your defense of my post.
Please don’t take it that I’m angry or upset, because I really am not :)
Sorry, Angel. I didn’t mean you. I was of course mangling bill28, as MartinM notes. I even visited your site, and found nothing worse than unreadable purple text on a black background, and overuse of the <CENTER> tag.
I read some of it (selecting the text makes it legible–a trick that even works for white-on-white or black-on-black text). It seems overwrought to me, but I know I strike many people as severely underwrought.
In any case, let me again say I am sorry I attached your name to a bill28 screed.
” I even visited your site, and found nothing worse than unreadable purple text on a black background, and overuse of the
Coulda been worse. Coulda been text on a like-colored ANIMATED background. ~shudder~
Well thanks for the sight and the invitation to join the commenting fray! I can’t remember when I first came across Pharyngula, but I do know it was a link to the quotes page. I have been reading and learning for some time now and appreciate very much the articles and comment boards. I live in a small-minded conservative christian kind of place and I’m always glad to “listen in” on the conversations of people a little more like-minded. Perhaps I’ll remember to speak up and contribute more, now.
I guess I’m one of these new people you’re talking about. I get linked over here every now and again, and since I’ve been linking to a lot of the stuff you’ve posted or linked in re: Expelled, I decided to finally put you on my list of daily reads.
I haven’t been disappointed by that yet.
I guess since this seems to be an “introduce yourself” thread, I ought to finally delurk and do that. I’ve been lurking here for a while. (I haven’t been keeping track of exactly how long.) This is my first post and I’ll probably go back to mostly lurking. I was mostly a lurker and occasional poster on talk.origins too (starting at least as far back as 1987) and I’ve been pretty happy to see a bunch of the old t.o gang here. I won’t try to mention names because I would certainly slight some of them (you) by omission, but I will say that it makes me feel “at home” to see so many familiar names and handles.
Peace,
Paul
@197
Sorry, I have just been speaking with god, and he is not returning to earth at all!
Apparently he got a young girl here pregnant 2000 years ago and we have not stopped talking about it since!
Sorry to inform you, but Cosmic Teapot will not be on this blog for the foreseeable future, as he has been unfortunately struck by lightning!
Lying again. If you go against the party line in here long enough, you will be silenced.
#20 firemancarl,
You do a good job over at this Daytona Beach Newspaper blog.
greetz Yoeruek
@Nobody
If you are refering to my posts, they were meant to be jokes, not statements of facts.
Hello to you too :) I guess you could say I’m new here – I’ve been lurking for a while, but being a philosophy major my scientific knowledge is comparatively limited and I’ve not had much to contribute. I stumbled across Pharyngula purely by accident when trawling through Google for atheism-related sites; thinking it looked interesting, I added it to my RSS feeds. I’m very glad that I did ^_^