It’s a strange, weird world out there. I get hate mail all the time, but you know me — I’m mean and cruel and I don’t hesitate to pull out the sharp, sharp knives of unkind rhetoric. Other people get hate mail, too, and here’s one that made me laugh and laugh (which is also really mean, since I’m not the recipient.)
You people are going to ruin your little daughter and make her burn in hell like the two of you. You think you are clever and so does the devil. Only God has the answer for you. God or G. Bush.
That last line is a real laugh-getter — some people have problems distinguishing god from Bush, and I’m not talking about Moses — but there’s more. What did this horrible person and his child do to deserve such damnation? Is he a militant atheist? A commie pinko Kucinich supporter? I don’t know; maybe, but it’s not apparent from the blog. The blog has a theme.
It’s about vegan parenting.
Oh, man, when George W. Bush discovers that people actually post vegetarian recipes on a blog, he is probably going to send Chuck Norris over to kick their asses and slap ’em around with a side of beef. I’m just relieved that I’ve never posted my old recipe for miso soup here, or I’d really be in trouble — I’d be posting from Gitmo in between waterboarding sessions, or dodging lightning bolts from heaven.
I’m betting the poster was barely literate. They probably thought it was about “Pagan Parenting”.
Whenever I see someone living with so much hatred that they cannot contain it and have to spread it like manure, I think of this. I believe I came up with it myself:
People often say, “The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist”. If the Devil is such a smart guy, wouldn’t the greatest trick he could pull be convincing the world he was God?
Of course, since I believe in neither, it becomes but a though-experiment.
Only God has the answer for you. God or G. Bush.
That’s a lot of stupid.
Religion is mental illness.
You people are going to ruin your little daughter and make her burn in hell like the two of you.
Good thing God judges people on their own merits, not the sins of their fathers.
Ugh. The only reasoned response to someone like this is a potato in the tailpipe and an enclosed garage.
My guess on that would be that the bible commands humanity to have dominion over the animals. I guess dominion includes eating that over which you have dominion. But doesn’t christianity also teach that man has dominion over his wife (cunnilingus?) and over his children (just, um, yikes!)?
At my house, things have gotten strange. My 15 year old daughter is now a vegetarian. Cook 2 meals at once. My wife has just been diagnosed with coeliac disease. Cook 3 meals at once. I guess vegan could start to make sense, as long as it is wheat-free (which means no TVP).
Well, you know, us vegans eat our young. Didn’t you know that? (That is how we get our protein).
Just wanted to post and say how much I am enjoying this website, which I discovered yesterday via a feminist forum I am on.
My guess: firstly, for many (but not all) vegans, their diet is an ethical choice – but it’s an ethic which owes nothing to the bible, and is therefore EVUL. Secondly, vegetarianism and veganism are commonly associated with left-of-centre politics: I don’t know how accurate this perception is, but I think it’s widely believed to be true – so these vegan parents are bound to be EVUL in all sorts of ways.
Remember, tofu is Satan’s smegma.
The last line gives it away. It’s a joke. Has to be.
But wasn’t Hitler a vegetarian? And (despite recent ‘books’) isn’t fascism conservatism carried to its illogical extreme?
Don’t shoot me, just asking.
There are certainly legitimate concerns with such dietary stances. This idiot has not raised one. *lights a match* let’s see if the stupid really burns… ;/
If we all sit around eating lard-free biscuits and miso soup, how is god (or GW) supposed to slake his thirst for blood?
You filthy hippie vegans just don’t understand god’s plan for you as revealed in the prosperity gospel.
Actually, now that i think of it, GW is not god. Bacon is.
The last line gives it away. It’s a joke. Has to be.
If so, then a substantial proportion of American voters have perpetuated an eight year joke to the detriment of themselves (and the rest of the world.)
And the rest of us aren’t laughing.
re: Hitler’s vegetarianism.
That’s up to debate. I’ve heard that the reason his diet was so lean on meat was due to his doctor’s recommendation. Reportedly, one of his favorite dishes was stuffed squab.
Of course, I read that on a vegetarian website, so my source was probably biased, but then again the whenever I see that factoid, it has no evidence backing it.
Y’know what’s great? Researching before I post a comment. Apparently he did espouse a vegetarian diet, even if he didn’t stick to it all the time. My bad.
Az, RE: concerns over veganism
I would definitely differentiate between vegan diets and child abuse. Vegan diets of themselves are not a problem. Feeding your children in a way that keeps them malnourished, giving them unnecessary enemas, and whipping them (all of which are abuse) are what was happening in the situation you quote.
Abusive parents can be omnivores, vegetarian, or vegan; it isn’t the diet in question but rather, how the parents treat their children. Does that make sense?
As for feeding your child breast milk – that is perfectly vegan (as is mentioned on the linked website).
Monika, the plump and healthy vegan
Frac (#1) – when I mentioned that I was toying with vegetarianism some years ago, my grandfather, a Baptist preacher, was furious. “It’s not what enters a man’s mouth, but what comes out that condemns him!” he thundered. Some verse or other… also, as has been pointed out, vegetarianism in the US is associated with hippies and worse, its ethical stance is not biblically derived.
Yeah, the post PZ saw is probably genuine. I can affirm that it’s a genuine attitude, anyway. I haven’t been theist for over four decades now, partly because of the insanity I saw up close and personal throughout my childhood. And I eat animals…
So, PZ… The miso soup recipe? Pretty please?
Sorry Monika, but denying a child a life time of eating bacon is child abuse of the worst sort :0) Mmmmm bacon….
Billy, I was just reading about a meat substitute that should be acceptable to both your daughter and your wife. it’s called “Soy Curls” and it’s endorsed by (awesome) vegan cookbook author Bryanna Clark Grogan. This stuff does an amazing job of standing in for chicken, and it’s 100% soy (no wheat, though you would want to write the company to make dead certain).
Write me if you have any other questions about what recipes might be acceptable to your family. I bought all the cookbooks. :)
OK, vegan bacon lovers… I use this stuff called “Bacon Salt” and it works tremendously well… link here: http://www.baconsalt.com/ A little goes a long way. I use it in beans, greens, and chowders, and I put it on fresh corn.
LOL Davem. Can’t say I miss bacon, actually. But I do miss DQ Blizzards (go figure!)
I figure kids will try meat (and dairy and eggs) at school, at their friend’s homes (etc). I don’t trust myself to cook meat for anyone. (I tried to cook a chicken for someone I worked with, and with my paranoia re: salmonella, I think I overdid it. A lot.) I will stick with the vegan cooking!
Moggie (#7) got it exactly right:
1) Vegan=liberal=depraved, and
2) The devoutly religious are often pretty perplexed by ethical choices that aren’t based in their religious or social traditions. It’s reminiscent of one of my parents’ many objections to my vegan diet (though they phrased it much more reasonably and literately than the above email). Namely, what basis could such “made up” rules possibly have? Our religious/social traditions already tell us what’s right and wrong, so why bother going further? There’s just no reason for it. With tradition, you know exactly where you stand; start thinking for yourself, and you open the door to temptation, depravity, social ostracization, and that dreadful scourge, uncertainty.
I did a little googling and found that there is support for vegetarianism in the Bible.
Not that it matters to me, as I am neither vegetarian nor a theist. There may be a silver lining in biblical literalism, however. Eventually, the political pendulum in North America will swing back toward respect for reason and rationality, and intelligence will once again guide our politicians. Since this will exclude the majority of fundies, we’ll be said to have dominion over them as well as every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
I anticipate that corn-fed Southern Baptists, when prepared right, will be more succulent (and ethical to eat) than foie gras. And just think of the rich, smoked-in flavour of the rednecks in tobacco-producing regions. Homeschoolers’ heads (emptied of their atrophied brains, of course) will be positively delectable when filled with walnut-rosemary stuffing and simmered in Bible Belt broth.
Dear Lord, we thank thee for thy bounteous fruits of thy latest ‘tard harvest. And lead us not to indigestion, especially from that fat one we caught while he was filling up his H2. In Jesus’ tummy’s name, Amen.
Yeah, PZ, make with the miso soup recipe already. What are you, chicken?
/me ducks behind the nearest vegan for cover.
Miso soup, traditionally, is not vegetarian. The basic stock is dashi, which is made from katsuobushi, a form of dried, preserved tuna.
speedwell: thanks. Of course up here in the wilds of Scranton it may be hard to find.
Texans eat more beef briskit per capita than residents of any other state. So there!
I don’t understand the Christian objection to vegetarianism, since every creature in the Garden of Eden prior to the Fall was vegetarian (hence the Creation Museum claiming that T. Rexes used their teeth to crack coconuts). Given that meat eating was the result of sin (just like disease and pain in labour at childbirth), I would think that being vegetarian would be the desired state for Christians.
(There are also some Christian sects that are explicitly vegetarian, most notably the Seventh Day Adventists.)
Miso is fairly easy to make. Start by boiling flakes of katsuobushi (usually found in Asian supermarkets under ‘Dried Bonito Flakes’) and kombu seaweed in a medium pot, and then strain out the broth. This is the dashi.
Remove a cup of the dashi and mix in a few tablespoons of miso paste once it has cooled somewhat, since you don’t want to cook the miso.
If at this point you’d like to add other ingredients, like mushrooms, firm tofu cubes, and sliced green onion, put those in the dashi and let them simmer for a few moments. Then, take the dashi off the heat and pour in the miso/dashi combination. Serve.
I’ve experimented with vegetarian recipes that substitute mushrooms or other vegetables to flavour the stock, as well as dried pollack fillets when I couldn’t get bonito. I’m no purist, so I advise tailoring the recipe to fit your tastes.
EVERY SINGLE TIME I mentioned my vegetarianism to members of my church, they would instantly reply that “Well, God gave us animals for us to eat,” like what I was doing was somehow against God’s will. I will certainly not miss that judgmental character.
I wonder if the Christian antipathy toward vegetarianism is a holdover from Classical paganism. The Greeks and Romans tended to persecute vegetarian groups like the Orphists and Pythagoreans, along with Christians and Epicureans, because they did not participate in animal sacrifice.
Not participating in sacrifice was a grave sin, not so much because of not propitiating the gods or participating in the community, but because for most regular people in pagan society, animal sacrifice represented the only decent meal they would get to eat that week. If it were merely a question of religion, the Greeks and Romans would never have tolerated the Jews, but since the Jews also practiced sacrifice, they were okay.
That’s the true symbolism of communion — the bread and wine symbolize not the blood and body of Christ, but the actual chunks of bloody meat that would have been distributed to congregants following an animal sacrifice. So, vegetarians and other sects that rejected sacrifice weren’t just worshiping the wrong gods or snubbing societal norms, they were taking food out of the mouths of hungry people.
It seems unlikely, but I wonder if this pagan antipathy toward vegetarianism survived, meme-like and divorced from its practical source, the Greek and Roman conversion to Christianity, and surfaces today among fundies?
“Well, God gave us animals for us to eat”
Couldn’t He, in all His infinite wisdom and power and glory, simply made inanimate bacon to grow on trees, steak to grow on bushes, and tuna salad to grow in the earth? Mmmm…
and tuna salad to grow in the earth
Gross! How would you wash off the dirt without making the mayo all watery?
No meat = No god.
I know that the meat industry is environmentally destructive, uses huge energy inputs to grow, and its fruits will some day stop my heart.
But after all of those Thanksgiving turkeys, Easter hams, and Christmas geese, how could I be so cruel to tell my dying grandmother that there is no bacon in heaven? How could I explain my transformation into a whiny wuss like Morrissey? How could I deprive my creator of the sweet savour of burnt offerings?
That just seems cruel.
The official Catholic position on vegetarianism was established at the Council of Ancyra in the 4th Century. The Council decreed that it was OK to abstain from meat for health reasons so long as you were willing to taste a little stew now and then to establish that your vegetarianism wasn’t motivated by heretical beliefs.
Couldn’t He, in all His infinite wisdom and power and glory, simply made inanimate bacon to grow on trees, steak to grow on bushes, and tuna salad to grow in the earth? Mmmm…
It’d be a hell of a lot more impressive than the bananas, I’ll tell you!
How could I explain my transformation into a whiny wuss like Morrissey?
Oh, it’s on, bitch!
Feeding children a diet that does not meet their nutritional needs is extremely harmful and potentially fatal to a child. Vegan diets are one documented way in which parents may do this. Therefore, there is a legitimate concern. Failure to “differentiate between vegan diets and child abuse” is not a factor, and your statements here, while true, are completely orthogonal to my point.
Just shot soy milk out my nose.
God didn’t like bacon, though. I can imagine the revelation, somewhat like Mr. Deity:
“Take dominion over all the earth, and it is all yours to eat.”
“Pssst…remember when you were just playing with some mud the other day and accidentally made Trichina?”
“Oh, right. Ok, you may eat everything but the pig!”
This vegetarian really wishes there were bacon trees.
Just wondering how well these diets work. The sickest people I’ve ever known have been vegan/vegetarian. Is there a reason for this or is it just trendies not eating a real diet?
As an earlier commenter mentioned, some interpretations of Christian scripture lead to an encouragement of vegetarianism, viz. Seventh Day Adventists.
I consider vegan parenting to be negligent but not for any religious reasons.
and tuna salad to grow in the earth
kimchi isn’t enough for you?
[blockquote]Just wondering how well these diets work. The sickest people I’ve ever known have been vegan/vegetarian. Is there a reason for this or is it just trendies not eating a real diet?[/blockquote]
Really? Since we are on random generalisations, I am going to assume you have high blood pressure.
Any problems with a vegan diet are usually the result of taking the standard american diet, and removing meat/dairy/eggs. If you go from a big mac and fries to a bun, lettuce, ketchup and fries, i think you are going to have a problem.
Vegetarian diets are widely documented to be better for you.
Just a couple of points i should have added:
A) I’m vegan (duh)
B) [blockquote]Position of the American Dietetic Association: Vegetarian Diets (1997)
Scientific data suggest positive relationships between a vegetarian diet and reduced risk for several chronic degenerative diseases and conditions, including obesity, coronary artery disease, hypertension, diabetes mellitus, and some types of cancer. Vegetarian diets, like all diets, need to be planned appropriately to be nutritionally adequate.
POSITION STATEMENT
It is the position of The American Dietetic Association (ADA) that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, are nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.
[/blockquote]
Most studies I’ve seen of vegetarians suggests that they are generally healthier than the general population, especially in terms of major causes of death/disability (e.g., cancer, diabetes, heart disease). Of course, there are always exceptions (I’m vegetarian, but too fond of pizza and fries to be eating as healthily as a I should). And it is true that a vegan diet requires a lot more attention to nutrition than a standard vegetarian diet (and usually involves explicitly supplementing certain nutrients such as B12). Finally, my sense is that many young people, especially young women, use a “vegetarian” diet as a way to lose weight, and in some cases to mask eating disorders.
Per the American Dietetic Association, well planned vegan diets are safe for people from infancy through adulthood.
I adopted a vegan diet because it’s better for the environment, better for my health and kinder to animals. I didn’t know trying to do the right thing and thinking about how my actions affect others was going to land me and my family in hell! Thanks for the tip, psycho Xtian!!
If people aren’t thriving on a vegan or vegetarian diet, it is probably because they are not eating healthily. If all you eat is french fries and diet soda, yeah, that’s technically vegan, but you are going to feel like crap. Drinking vodka tonics all day is vegan, too.
If you eat a balanced diet with lots of whole foods, beans, grains, fruit and vegetables you usually do just fine (true for vegans and non-vegans.) Personally, cutting animal products out of my life made me feel amazing, taught me how to be a really good cook, and lowered my cholesterol by 30 points. And if you think vegan food is all twigs and tofurky, check out this blog for example: http://www.veganyumyum.com
Thanks for posting that, PZ.
Post your old miso soup recipe here.
Bob
[quote]And it is true that a vegan diet requires a lot more attention to nutrition than a standard vegetarian diet (and usually involves explicitly supplementing certain nutrients such as B12). Finally, my sense is that many young people, especially young women, use a “vegetarian” diet as a way to lose weight, and in some cases to mask eating disorders.[/quote]
One could suggest that a vegan diet requires the same level of attention to nutrition that every other diet [i]should[/i] have. And of course ‘diet’ is used as the ‘group of things one eats’ use, not ‘i want to lose weight’ use. People with eating disorders may also X. Lets ban doing X.
The worst part is that these nuts haven’t even read the book they claim to be following.
Daniel 1:8-16 actually speaks of the benefits of veganism:
See? The bible says you will be healthier if you are a vegan! Proof positive that the bible is true! :)
If you eat a balanced diet with lots of whole foods, beans, grains, fruit and vegetables you usually do just fine (true for vegans and non-vegans.)
That’s good advice for meat-eaters too (especially if you’re prone to the occasional bout of hot wings and beer while watching the game at the pub.)
Brownian (#29) –
Bonito flakes are dried fish. How does that fit with a vegan or vegetarian diet? Or did I get my wires crossed and you’re not saying that it is?
Im going to give up trying to quote and style, but…
Kombu (a seaweed) is the traditional replacement for dashi/bonito in miso
zwa, you need to review your html. If you substitute “<” (the less-than arrow in case the character doesn’t show up) for “[” and “>” (the greater-than arrow) for “]” you’ll do fine.
there you go, proof positive vegan diets effect brain function.
Bonito flakes are dried fish. How does that fit with a vegan or vegetarian diet? Or did I get my wires crossed and you’re not saying that it is?
You’re right Frac, and the fault probably lies in my less-than clear post. No, traditional miso wouldn’t fit within a vegan or vegetarian diet (though some veges will eat fish), but I posted the recipe since it was asked for.
However, the miso paste itself is vegetarian-friendly (though it is a fermented product, so you’ll have to read the ingredients to see how it fits within any dietary restrictions), and I’ve found it goes well with most light broths, so feel free to substitute the daishi with a vegetarian or vegan broth to your liking.
All this talk about miso reminds me that I should see if there’s any at the store on the way home from work. It’s been awhile since I made it, and now I’m craving some.
I’m just really confused at this point. I grew up in a very strict Seventh-Day Adventist home. We were vegetarian, of course, since it’s a church doctrine sorta thing. I left that along with everything else in that conservative clusterfuck of a church long ago. Now I’m hearing that being a vegetarian is a liberal anti-god sort of thing to do? What am I supposed to eat now?
Stick to liquor, Dahan. You can’t go wrong with booze.
zwa:
I’m vegetarian myself, and not vegan only because I like appropriate discipline (and really like cheese), so my post wasn’t meant to be hostile. That said, I do think that, generally speaking, more care needs to be taken with a vegan diet than omnivorous or lacto-ovo-vegetarian, precisely because certain specific nutrients are not (easily) available from common vegan foods. Inattention to one’s diet when vegan can have more serious consequences than in most other cases. At the very least, it is better known how to eat properly as an omnivore and lacto-ovo-vegetarian, even if that is observed more in the breach.
That’s not to say that veganism is evil or should be banned, just that it means people need to eat more thoughtfully when vegan.
Um, that should be “lack appropriate discipline”, not “like appropriate discipline”…not that there’s anything wrong with that…
I use a dashi made with both kombu and shiitake mushrooms. If you have neither, you can use porcini. If you don’t have that, a pinch of garlic powder, a pinch of sugar, and a pinch of red pepper flakes works for me. I made my miso soup this morning out of the pot liquor from stewing beet greens. Miso soup is the ultimate in flexible.
Billy, both those things I mentioned are available online.
Aaaahhhh… booze. Well said. As long as it’s not communion related.
Thanks zwa. I will also testify that veganism can be delicious and healthy, but it does require some conscious planning in the beginning while one develops new eating habits. Teenagers are the most vulnerable, since they are rarely self-educated in nutrition, and usually dependent upon their parents for meals. Omnivorous parents are rarely enthusiastic about learning new recipes at the request of dependent offspring, who in many cases are asking for the family’s traditions to be partially reworked.
I’m approaching two decades of veganism now, but I might have defaulted to “lettuce and fries” and then returned to meat-eating if my parents had not been both skeptical and supportive of my choice when I was living under their roof. They looked into nutrition and insisted I do the same.
I don’t know any long-term vegans who are unhealthy. I don’t get sick as often as many people I know, but I have always had a strong immune system and I don’t think this has much to do with being vegan.
Ian @52,
Proof positive that the bible is true!
Or at least, proof positive that Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego were Liberal Fascists.
I didnt read it as hostile. I think the problem is criticising veganism because ‘you need to eat a balanced vegan diet’. Which is true, but if you are vegetarian you need to eat a balanced vegetarian diet, and if youre an omnivore you need to eat a balanced omnivorous diet.
It really isnt hard to do.
What font does Pharyngula use in the posts?
Thanks for the link, Lillet (#49). I’m a meat-eater, but the food at veganyumyum.com looks delicious (though the great photography helps ;-)
[Homer Simpson]mmmmmmm, intelligently designed bacon. gaaaahhhh
Most of the sickliest people I know are vegan too, but I know healthy vegans as well. A vegan diet by it’s nature leads to deficiency in certain nutrients (especially B12), but if care is taken to deal with that, then it’s perfectly healthy.
It may be justifiable to call vegan parents who don’t make sure their kids get a balanced diet abusive, but no more so than parents who allow their kids to consume a diet of only McDonald’s and Little Debbie.
If the bacon tree is the result of evolution, and not Cdesign proponentsistism, then why are there still trees and bacon?
First, you want to use the HTML <blockquote> and </blockquote> tags.
Second, while I agree with you about attention to nutrition, does your diet include multiple daily servings of crack?! No one suggested “banning” anything, ffs.
I think it’s a lot simpler than that. Christianity, like all religions, is a pedestal for placing the status quo above question. Patriarchal cultures make a big deal of “real men”. You have to be a real man, or if you’re a woman, you have to marry a real man and do what he says. Real men kill and eat animals, and bring home the bacon, etc.
If you don’t eat animals, and you don’t make sufficient apologies for this choice (citing health necessities that implicitly acknowledge you are not a real man), then you not giving proper deference to patriarchy and its institutions, including Christianity. It follows that veganism is anti-Christian. Christians don’t have to be so paranoid and reactionary about this, but what’s a patriarchal institution without constant anxiety about emasculation?
So, bacon = sausage ?
As an earlier commenter mentioned, some interpretations of Christian scripture lead to an encouragement of vegetarianism, viz. Seventh Day Adventists.
As a former SDA who seconds #60’s having left that “conservative clusterfuck of a church”, I’d like to clarify the record that while vegetarianism is part of church dogma, it’s based on the church’s “profit, excuse me, prophet” Ellen G. White rather than on the Bible. She was given visions that said that we didn’t need to eat meat, and would be healthier if we didn’t. In practice – not so much with the healthier, given that the average SDA takes over-processed veggie-meat, deep-fries it, and then slaps it on bread with a ton of condiments. At least in my experience . . . .
#49: “Drinking vodka tonics all day is vegan, too.”
In college, a friend of mine and I came up with a orange juice, vodka, and multivitamin “writer’s diet” that I’ve always wanted to try but just haven’t gone quite mad enough to go through with it. It’s vegan too! (Hmm..may have to throw in a Red Bull for more B vitamins…)
“Take drink, this is my blood”?
Say, how about some nice Rocky Mountain Oysters?
Thank you all for your insights and I apologize for anecdote use but I had always wondered about the vegan/vegetarian downtime from sickness. As an “evil” omnivore, I had far less illness and response severity when it struck.
From the comments I can hypothesize the dieters were more concerned with appearances and social standing than food or nutrition.
By the way, this group also had the most strenuous arguments over who was the most “pacifist”.
Many moons ago I read a tongue in cheek scientific paper about how you could get all the required daily nutrients and vitamins the body needed from drinking 32 pints of Guiness a day. Naturally as studetns we tried to emulate this but passed out somewhere around the 19th pint at 4 in the afternoon. Who said science couldn’t be fun?
But that doesn’t work, based on the “all the more for us” response to vegetarianism that is really the only rational one.
No, I suspect that religion and sacrifice make more sense in that situation. Don’t want to piss off the gods.
I suspect that the Greeks and the Romans were OK with Judaism because of religious superstition: Hey, what if the Jewish god were the real one? Yeah, don’t want to piss off that one; he’s almost as grumpy as Zeus; maybe even a little more.
Or something like that.
Correction, I’ve found the old reference in New Scientist. It’s actually 48 pints, two glasses of milk and a glass of orange juice to get all you need. However, the lack of fibre is a problem that can lead to colo-rectal cancers etc but I’m guessing on 48 pints of Guiness a day you don’t really give a shit (excuse the pun but anal humour is always fun).
The sickest people I’ve known have all tried every combination of eating or not eating meat, fat, carbs, wheat, soy, corn syrup, live toads, or machine shop waste, basically because their doctors can’t fix them and they want SOMETHING to make them feel better.
In two cases that I know of, the person actually found something they were allergic to; in one other, it turned out to be parasitic worms that the docs hadn’t checked for because “NOBODY gets those in the United States.” The rest of ’em… well, they keep trying.
“Drinking vodka tonics all day is vegan, too.”
Now you tell me!
Oh, for fuck’s sake, quit it. Stop chopping the world up into tribes and borders and imagining that everyone on the other side is your enemy. I’m vegan for moral reasons, and yes, that implies I think your choice is morally wrong. That doesn’t mean I think you’re “evil” or any other dichotomous dualist crap. Maybe a bit melodramatic, though. Get down off your cross.
I became a vegetarian when I began suffering the effects of long-term immunosuppression for liver transplant. Renal failure, liver failure, bloating, fatigue [death] all convinced me to try the vegan route. My lab numbers normalized within 2 weeks and my docs took me off the transplant list. Now, I’m vegetarian, not vegan but have stayed healthy for over 10 years for a total of 19 years post transplant. That’s close to a record for liver transplants.
Naturally, I looked into the nutritional aspects and took care to eat correctly. You know, I AM a scientist, and nutrition isn’t rocket science, just common sense.
The problem lies, of course in “pudding vegetarians” which is what we call those who eat no animal products, but live on chips and ice cream. Not healthy. But it’s not the diet that’s to blame, but the application.
I went to an Indian wedding, which was not vegetarian. In a case of adolescent rebellion, I saw two youngsters actually try the chicken when their mom wasn’t looking. Sure beats dope or tobacco!
SG
There’s a lot of irony in that post. :)
*grin* Thanks for noticing. I like to play it up.
I’ve read that a new study shows that omega 3’s from vegetable sources may not have the benefits that omega ‘s from animal sources do… apparently they are a somewhat different kind, etc.
Not saying this to promote or criticize any particular diet, just one of those things that shows how much research you have to do to eat well regardless of what diet you choose.
Of course, its just one study, so I hope there are followups.
I second (or is it seventh?) the demand for miso recipe.
Everybody dies sooner or later. It pains me to think of the people who are so hyper-focused on what they eat that they expend huge amounts of time and energy thinking and planning what they are going to eat, when in comparison to all of the other factors that go into lifespan it might really make little to no difference. Eat meat, or don’t, and either way make sure to get a good variety of veggies and fruits and fiberiffic foods. And take a multivitamin. There, you’re done.
“Everybody dies sooner or later. It pains me to think of the people who are so hyper-focused on what they eat that they expend huge amounts of time and energy thinking and planning what they are going to eat, when in comparison to all of the other factors that go into lifespan it might really make little to no difference.”
Other than not wanting to die next week, I don’t really give a flying fig about lifespan.
I’ve changed my diet so that while I AM alive, I don’t feel like crap all the time… and so I can have energy, take long bike rides, hike, etc.
Miso soup? Yuck! Hell is too good for you . . . .
Vegan diet is the devil’s diet. Why? Because anything religious fanatics don’t understand or don’t know how to spell is the devil’s playground. Now go wash your hands in holy water!
I’ve only had miso soup a couple of times, but I remember it being yummy, if a bit too salty for my meniere’s.
quoth ennui: If the bacon tree is the result of evolution, and not Cdesign proponentsistism, then why are there still trees and bacon?
Look out: It’s not a bacon tree, it’s an ‘am bush!
Eat meat, or don’t, and either way make sure to get a good variety of veggies and fruits and fiberiffic foods. And take a multivitamin. There, you’re done.
I’m a vegetarian because I don’t like the way we treat the animals we consume. I also don’t like the idea of killing another creature so that I can stick bits of it into my mouth to satisfy my taste buds.
It’s also better for the planet, from what I read. Raising cattle for food is a very earth-unfriendly activity. I won’t even get into the factory pig farms. Or the way chickens are treated.
Everyone should be eating organic foods almost exclusively, consuming shade-grown organic coffees and avoiding the over-packaged, mass-produced crap you find in all the supermarket chains.
A great read: The Way We Eat: Why Our Food Choices Matter by Peter Singer and Jim Mason
[steps down from soap box]
Nice soapbox, CalGeorge.
I’m practically a vegan (I do eggs or sour cream or sushi once in a dark blue moon). But I’m not quite as religious and I do mean religious about it as some people are. I do it for my health primarily, for aesthetic reasons secondarily, and then as a way to reduce my share in killing things.
But for those people who eat meat… Go ahead and stuff yourselves. Do it in front of me, even. I am not going to tell you you should or should not do this thing or that with your own mouth. I am a (gasp/horrors) libertarian, and I believe in liberty.
I do care, but not enough to make you miserable by sticking my ill-mannered criticism where it is not wanted, mm kay?
PZ, you mean you don’t use bonito for your miso? Wonder how that tastes like.
Vegetarian diets are widely documented to be better for you.
Western meat-eating habits tend to be unhealthy, and that is due to how much of what kind of meat we eat rather than anything intrinsic to meat itself. A vegetarian or vegan diet is no more intrinsically healthy than a sensible omnivore diet. So it really comes down to what a person chooses for whatever reasons (barring genetic and medical conditions).
And miso is just too damned salty.
I think it’s pretty cool that this topic can be discussed without people blowing up on either side. Maybe I just need to get to know different people.
to Lillet @ #49: thank you SO much for that vegan resource. I’m an omnivore myself, but like to cook for vegan/veggie/lactose intolerant friends… and what’s more awesome than vegan petit fours?
Well, its the medical condition thing for me. Or rather several medical conditions. Doctor has ruled out red meat, dairy, alcohol, caffeine, anything sugary, anything not whole grain, sodium, anything fatty.
If you eat fish sometimes, you aren’t “practically a vegan”. You aren’t even a vegetarian. Words have meanings. Please do not dilute them. The word “vegan” was coined to make a contrast with people who diluted “vegetarian”. (It’s the beginning and the end of vegetarian; get it?) I don’t know what we’ll have to coin next if you screw this one up for us.
No, you don’t. Again, words have meanings. “Religious” means “of or pertaining to a religion”. Veganism has no theology, no faith, and no supernatural claims of any kind. It is not a religion by any stretch of the imagination. The comparison, especially when trotted out in front of atheist vegans on an atheist’s blog, is a boring and disingenuous attempt at giving insult.
“I don’t know what we’ll have to coin next if you screw this one up for us.”
Not that I don’t sympathize to some degree, and I totally get your point, but… why do you need to have a label?
Can’t you just eat what you feel like eating and not feel like eating what you don’t feel like eating, without wearing a slogan t-shirt about it?
I refuse to shop at walmart, but I don’t have a name for what I am as a result of that. I won’t buy music from RIAA affiliated labels, but I don’t have a name for that. I don’t eat red meat, or nutrasweet or any artificial sweeteners including HFCS, but I don’t have a name for it.
If people ask, you can’t just say “I don’t any animal derived products?”
Not picking on you, just struck me as odd all of the sudden.
And before someone mentions it, yes, I am an atheist, and yes I DO feel that word has been misused, and yes I do feel it needs defending… while at the same time thinking that its stupid to need a label at all. So I’m not pointing fingers, just thinking.
Well, its the medical condition thing for me. Or rather several medical conditions. Doctor has ruled out red meat, dairy, alcohol, caffeine, anything sugary, anything not whole grain, sodium, anything fatty.
Well, I have a medical condition that does pretty much the opposite. Almost no uncooked fruit or vegetables at all, no whole nuts, whole grains, legumes, etc. I miss my salads and whole grain bread.
Veganism has no theology, no faith, and no supernatural claims of any kind.
“Honey is rape” is a pretty theological claim. There’s a sizable subgroup of vegans that are religious in that way.
carex wrote: “With tradition, you know exactly where you stand; start thinking for yourself, and you open the door to temptation, depravity, social ostracization, and that dreadful scourge, uncertainty.”
… and dancing, you forgot dancing.
Just wondering, anyone out there into insect protein?
http://www.food-insects.com/
As the sister of a vegan, I can say there’s a very good reason for them to have a specific label–
so I can feed him!
It’s a lot easier to look for a “vegan margarine” to serve with home made whole wheat rosemary rolls than stand in front of the margarines flipping a box of every brand over until I can find one that doesn’t have whey, doesn’t have “natural flavorings” (which can mean anything), and has no other ingredients that sound like they might be even remotely animal derived. Then, serve dinner and wait for my brother to read the boxes on everything processed even a little to make sure it doesn’t have any phrases he knows to look for but I’ve forgotten.
And because I’m ovalactopisceovegetarian, I am NOT going to say he shouldn’t be so picky. I’ve had people serve me things with bacon in, chicken broth, or tiny bits of hamburger, on the assumption it isn’t enough to matter.
“Vegan” is also a great term for online searches for recipes– I’m not going to have all my Christmas candies and cookies be things my brother can’t eat.
Grammar Nazi… I mean RWA… go teach your grandmother to suck eggs, OK? You are extremely anal-retentive, which in the vernacular means you’re full of shit. You’re also one of the most naive purists I’ve come across in years of work as a copy editor and technical writer. If I need your opinion on how to misuse the language, I’ll ask you. Don’t hold your fussy breath on that.
Well I am not vegetarian, partly because I think it is blindingly obvious that we are omnivores and secondly because yes, I am prepared to kill what I eat and I will look into the eyes of the cow while I put the bolt into its brain if necessary too. If you care about the animals think about this: if nobody ate them they wouldn’t exist. Nobody is going to give crop eating cows and sheep and pigs living room if they cannot be eaten (ok unless they are Hindu). And yes, I think we should be as nice as practicable to the animals right up until that bolt goes in, only partly because the meat is tenderer that way ;-)
Peter Ashby…
good point. Not to mention all the things we do to other animals to stop them eating our crops. More humans is bad news for all the animals that compete with humans for land use, not just the ones we eat. The really humane thing to do for the sake of other animals is to cease to exist. And of course you can’t keep carnivores as pets either (I’m not sure how many cat and dog owning vegan’s there are out there.) I suggest we seek some sort of compromise on this one.
I’ve found the whole “If you believe in something, it must be a religion” argument to be incredibly frustrating. It’s premise of what constitutes religion is so broad that it actually trivializes religion into meaningless.
#112 Speedwell,
I’m beginning to understand the decline of editing standards in this country. Grammar RWA is right, words do matter. How they are used matters. When I was all of nine I asked Groucho Marx, “Could I ask you about an autograph?” He assumed I was asking about his autograph, but note that I was, strictly speaking, not asking for his autograph. (I gave him mine, in case you’re wondering. He was ticked. :) )
I do not agee with the official reasons for vegetarianism and veganism (the desire for the taste of meat should tell people something), but he is right with how ‘vegetarian’ and ‘vegan’ are currently used. What you say, how you say it, and why you say it the way you do matter. No matter how carefully you speak some will misapprehend it, but for most making your meaning clear makes a huge difference.
BTW, can you explain to me why technical writing is among the most boring, uninspiring, confusing crap to read ever published? Is communication and explication anathema in your business?
The human body has adapted to an omnivorous diet. The evidence is clear: different-shaped teeth, a short digestive tract (good for getting rid of m**t before it breeds too many germs, bad for hydrolysing cellulose) and the ability to synthesise taurine from other proteins. There is also reasonable evidence to suppose that our divergence from the ancestor we share with other modern primates may have had something to do with starting to eat m**t, or to eat more of it.
Obviously, certain individuals will have problems; there may be some whose digestive systems cannot tolerate certain foodstuffs, and likewise there may be some who lack the necessary enzyme to synthesise taurine and will become ill without an intake of m**t.
I personally have no problem with killing land animals for food, but — sorry PZ — there’s no way I’m putting anything that lived in the water anywhere near my mouth. Call it, and the fake Bowdlerisation, my concessions to the need for some irrational behaviour :)
I have heard of people who attempt to feed pet dogs and cats a strictly vegan diet. It sometimes works with dogs because they, like all canids, are omnivorous, but it’s very tough on cats– felines are carnivores.
That argument could be used to justify slavery as well. In other words, it’s just silly. I have no investment in having more people on the planet, but I think we should treat the ones who are here with dignity and respect. Ditto for farm animals. (And my family owns a Texas beef ranch, so I’m not some granola urbanite — well, I suppose I am, but I do have some experience in the other side.)
I don’t think any vegetarian/vegan denies humans are omnivorous, or that we evolved to be meat eaters, or even that cows and whatnot animals would not exist if we didn’t eat them. Those things don’t matter and aren’t good arguments against vegetarianism. Just because we evolved to do a thing doesn’t mean we have to; you don’t get “ought” from an “is.”
Honestly, I don’t know any good arguments *against* vegetarianism, and yet I still eat meat and fish and shellfish. Go figure.
Good grief, I think bringing up slavery in defense of vegetarianism should be equivalent to Godwin’s law, meaning you lose the argument by being ridiculous. Humans who cease to be slaves are still useful, they can do all the things they used to do as slaves but you can pay them while charging them rent for their hovels for eg. We don’t need bullocks for traction any more, got trucks and tractors for that. Ever looked at how horse numbers dived in the ’20s as the internal combustion engine got going? Sheep can at least be shorn, but pigs bye bye porkers, not much use even as leather.
So that is no cows and only a few of the wool breeds of sheep like merinos, not texels but. Means no milk products because without us carnivorous types you would have nothing to do with the bobby calves. What? you going to put them out to pasture for the rest of their bull lives? one per pasture note, bulls are not known for getting on well with their fellows.
That is what happens the week after the world becomes vege, nothing else would make economic sense and we would need the land for crops anyway. Oh and bad news for grasses too, think about it. All you lacto vegetarians are floating on the backs of us meat eaters who are clearing up your mess for you.
Peter, the point of my argument was that the mere existence of farm animals is not a “good” to be maximized, any more than the mere existence of humans in whatever condition. I honestly don’t care if domestic cattle go extinct — I don’t see that as an inherently bad thing, any more than the fact that there aren’t many buggy whips around these days, or (more analogously) that oxen are relatively hard to find. I care about the individual organisms, and how we treat them, but there’s no moral imperative to preserve cattle breeds.
There are plenty of cultures that are essentially lacto-ovo-veg, and the world hasn’t collapsed. As for crops, cattle are lousy for creating protein from food crops — about 10 times as much protein can be gained from eating grains directly. In other words, we’d have to plant less land if we didn’t feed grain to cattle. (This argument rests on the typical practices of the US beef industry — where cattle are primarily fed on grasses and other plants unsuitable for human consumption, this is less of an issue.)
I quote:
My emphasis.
I quote:
My emphasis.
OK, I’m a vegan, not a monomaniac. I explained that I occasionally “slip.” Those of you who are objecting to the use of the word “vegan” on the grounds that to call yourself such you must attain some sort of exalted standard of perfection are simply hypocrites.
Food is for life, not life for food, OK? I’m not going to tell my grandmother to stick her pot roast in her ear when she forgets my dietary habits again and made it for me as comfort food when I get off a four hour flight. You have to be a little flexible. You can’t be fanatics. Fanaticism is for the religious.
OK, my work in particular tends to be better received among the engineers I support precisely because I am able to choose my words and organize the necessary steps with greater care than most others in the business. I am able to choose words based on a “feel” for a foreign language so that people whose native language is not English have an easier time with my documentation. Since my technical writing skills are learned on the job rather than in school, I am free to reject fanaticism here also and write for understanding.
That said, technical writing is just as technical as any other technical field such as math, physics, or chemistry. You don’t find fault with the way formulas are presented; they are standard. You don’t listen to the complaints of the uninformed that “math is hard” and your formulas obfuscate the “real meaning” of the writing. Technical writing often appears opaque simply because it is so highly polarized, you might say–tightly targeted to a small group of intended readers.
However much it may be distilled, etc, isn’t all alcohol an animal by-product (“yeast piss” being the most concise formulation), and therefore off-limits to the strict vegan?
For that matter, the flesh and blood (purportedly) found in the Eucharist would also be out-of-bounds to the (ahem) religious vegan.
I don’t think any vegetarian/vegan denies humans are omnivorous, or that we evolved to be meat eaters, or even that cows and whatnot animals would not exist if we didn’t eat them.
Actually, they do. Not all of them, but we’re back to that subset…
Just because we evolved to do a thing doesn’t mean we have to; you don’t get “ought” from an “is.”
Well, try skipping vitamin C. Some of those *is* are non-negotiable. Veganism is negotiable, within tight limits. Vegetarianism (ovo-lacto) is more suited to our biology.
Vit C is an interesting one. It is one of the strands that prove we are omnivores, not just carnivores. Ever wondered why your cat or dog doesn’t get scurvy? that’s because they can make their own VitC. We seem to have lost the ability back when we were likely fruitivorous primates. It is not efficient to make something that is in everything you eat. Now if only we could re-evolve the ability to make VitC and fix our need for dietary fibre we could be ovo-lacto-carnivores. Just those few steps away, and don’t fool yourself we have been evolving away from being vegetarians towards a diet much richer in animal/insect/fish protein, not to mention essential fatty acids and bioavailable iron.
Haven’t listened to many PETA types, have you? :) There is much propaganda out there
Unless, of course, your digestive system has problems with some of the proteins in grains …..
Anyway, cows are able to digest things that humans are not. You can graze animals on land that is unfit for growing (human) food crops — maybe not cows, but some animals will tolerate mountainous regions that are next to uncultivatable. The argument that animals are eating human food crops is specious.
AJS:
Not if you are talking about cattle in the US which are fed large amounts of grain like corn. You are right about how many animals are grown on land unfit for cultivation. Sheep on hill country for eg or cattle in the Australian outback where the number of cows per acre drops much less than 1 (they really should be farming kangaroos but we are shy of eating them, not me but).
Chicken here in the UK tastes of fish (the bog standard stuff) as they are fed fishmeal made from sandeels, part of the reason some seabird populations are in trouble. Of course you can always buy cornfed chooks, if their yellow flesh doesn’t put you off.
We could indeed feed more people if we didn’t keep animals but this ignores the fact that we have enough food, it is just poorly distributed and much is wasted. Also for the entire world to eat balanced vegetarian diets would be very hard. It is one thing for rich westerners to buy in their aduki beans but for many people the little animal protein they get is the difference between life and death.
So by all means be a vegetarian or a vegan, just don’t use bogus science to try and claim it is ‘healthier’ (than what? yes, most people eat too much meat, but so what?). Or that it is ‘natural’ which is demonstrably bollocks. And if you don’t eat animals for ‘ethical’ reasons then you really shouldn’t use dairy products (all those bobby calves), and aren’t all those ex layer chickens a gross waste of protein just to throw them away?
There are vegans who argue that humans aren’t omnivores, but they’re just wrong. We are omnivores, but that fact is not a valid argument against veganism. The primary reason for most vegans is the treatment of farm animals. I’m not vegan because I think it’s wrong or “unnatural” to eat animal products; I’m vegan because of the way animals are treated.
Hi craig. A lot of answers came to mind, but Samantha Vimes hit a few already.
Besides those, it’s very convenient to have recognizable vegan certifying labels. There are a few certifying companies who will check out a product’s supply chain and then put their logo on the packaging. Knowing these logos and looking for them is faster than reading ingredients, though they are relatively rare.
Also, having a well-understood title makes it very easy for me to communicate with others. If I go to someone’s house as a guest, and they offer me food I don’t eat, it’s very simple to say “no thank you, I’m vegan”, instead of listing all the things I don’t eat and explaining why. That’s usually followed by “and I already ate at home before I came over”, because I don’t want to make them start rummaging through the cupboards.
People who don’t already know the word do get it explained: “I don’t eat any animal derived products”. But if you’ve never said that, this might surprise you. The next thing that comes out of almost everyone’s mouth is “but what about eggs? what about fish? what about cheese?” as though I really did not mean what I just said. This seems to happen about 80% of the time. People who know the word “vegan” all seem to understand that it really means “no animal products, not even that one, no kidding”. I think the label is a large part of what makes this sink in and become concrete in the mind.
It’s easy to find other vegans on the Internet with this word. That can help one find recommendations, where to find good non-leather shoes, good restaurants in a new city, whatever.
And I’ll repeat one of Samantha’s answers… googling “vegan recipes” is just incredibly convenient. If the word gets diluted and I start getting ostensibly vegan recipes that say “and a little bit of fish, but that’s okay, it’s just a little bit and this is a holiday dish”, then I’m shit out of luck.
I’m glad you bring this up, Peter. Veganism, in my opinion, should be thought of as a practical approach to harm-reduction for all conscious beings. That includes humans, and so the practice of not eating animals should be coupled with some (large or small) personal involvement in the movement to end world hunger and poverty.
Thanks, and please tell this to your vegetarian acquaintances. That is the usual argument for choosing veganism instead of a more lax vegetarianism.
While vegans very often do present veganism as “no animal products” (I’ve been doing it in this thread), that’s done because “animal” is in most cases a shorthand for “being with an experience of pain or consciousness”. Vegans are concerned with minimizing suffering and wrongful death.
Yeasts are fungi, not animals. But animals without a nervous system, like sponges, are also fair game. They cannot experience pain.
If a family in the plant or fungi kingdoms had ever evolved pain or consciousness, vegans would avoid harming them as well. “Animal” is just convenient shorthand.
It should be off-limits to almost everyone, since most people regard cannibalism as wrong. This is just more evidence that theists do not fully believe the outlandish claims they make.
I’m not sure if the Eucharist would be prohibited by either veganism or anti-cannibalism, at least in terms of the justifications usually given for those positions. I would think that, generally speaking, both vegans and anti-cannibals would oppose eating humans because they would be killed unwillingly. The case of the Eucharist is more like someone in a lifeboat of starving people killing themselves so that others can go on living — it may be ookie to eat them, but almost all of the moral objections used for veganism and anti-cannibalism wouldn’t apply.
(Yeah, I’m probably overthinking this one.)
“Practically” has a meaning too. Try this analogy: “I’m practically an atheist. I only believe in one God, and I only talk to Him when I pray with my family at holiday meals, or a few other special occasions, and when I’m breaking down in a crisis.”
Let’s pretend to take this really seriously, because it’s more fun that way.
I think Jesus is a special case with a lot of ambiguity, more so than the lifeboat scenario. See, Jesus initially appears to be giving the Eucharist willingly and completely of his own volition. And the Eucharist is inseparable from the Crucifixion. Jesus is becoming a sacrificial animal, and that’s why it’s possible to eat his flesh and drink his blood; sacrificial animals are usually distributed among the crowd after the deity has taken his share.
But Jesus breaks down in Gesthemane before the Crucifixion, and begs his father for some other means of fulfilling the old man’s will. He breaks down again on the cross, clearly regretting his participation in the passion play his father has orchestrated: “my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
So it appears that Jesus is not a fully willing participant. He sometimes says that he is, but he is clearly being coerced by an older man who holds a position of power over him.
No, we’re simply asking that words be allowed to have meanings.
The fact that I do not deliberately eat or wear or otherwise exploit animals does not make me exalted or perfect. It just makes me vegan.
Okay, so you have chosen to eat pot roast when your grandmother offers it to you, and eggs, sour cream and sushi whenever you damn well feel like it. You know what? I do not think that makes you a bad person. But it does make you nonvegan.
You’re calling yourself vegan, and that indicates that you want to be vegan. I hope that you achieve that goal some day. In the meantime, perhaps you can help out all current vegans by not misrepresenting yourself, and by extension, us. “I’m trying to become vegan” would be accurate.
How, Graculus? How is that a theological statement? “Honey is rape and God exists” would be a theological statement.
I think the word you are looking for is “zealous”.
You people are going to ruin your little daughter and make her burn in hell like the two of you.
Well, they may burn, but if they’re Vegan, they won’t fry.
Try poaching.
This from the same person who criticizes others with the statement:
I think I have the meaning on my side, dave. “Animal” as a word long predates the molecular microscopy that placed sponges in the kingdom Animalia, and the above remains the vernacular, by far the majority usage. In contrast, there is no definition of “vegan” that includes eating eggs.
Convince me I’m wrong and I’ll gladly admit mistake.
I’d actually be in favour of labelling foods with “UNsuitable for vegans” or “UNsuitable for vegetarians”, according to a nationally- or EU-wide-standardised definition.
Im not sure what your point is regarding animalia, none of the current definitions of “animal” include your sense, and Im not aware of historical use of “animal” in your sense. While “animal” may not have always been defined as it is now, *your* sense is novel.
In anycase, I dont think “vegan” includes eggs as a regular part of ones diet. I do think the meaning of “practically” includes an exception every 2.5 years (about the frequency of a blue moon, the original posters claimed frequency for eating eggs.) Frankly, I think if the exception is that infrequent, the qualifier “practically” isnt even required.
That said, those I have personally known to keep a vegan diet for any length of time, have had gastric difficulty when animal fat was re-introduced into their diet (whether intentionally or accidentally) so I think there is some cause to suspect that speedwell’s exceptions are more frequent than would be inferred from a literal reading of “blue moon”. But even if we assume an exception once every other week, (s)he eats 41 of 42 meals vegan, for an exception rate of less than 3%. I think that qualifies as “practically vegan” well within the normal current useages of both words.
Dave, I do not mean to provide a prescriptive definition of animals as “beings with an experience of pain or consciousness”. I mean to say that in the vernacular, in the majority usage of English speakers, when a person speaks of an “animal”, they happen to be speaking of a being with an experience of pain or consciousness. Ask people to offer representative examples of animals, and it is incredibly rare that anyone will offer sponges, or trichoplax. Animals are those beings that move around in search of food and evade predators. So, as commonly understood, animals have brains. That’s why explaining “I don’t eat animals” works. No one ever asks “what about sponges?” (As it happens, I don’t use sponges either. I don’t even see them sold in stores anymore; apparently artificial sponges are more profitable.)
If you think I need to be more specific, and always say “I don’t eat or wear or otherwise exploit animals with a nervous system”, lest I be injuriously misunderstood, do make that case. I’ve explained how I can be harmed by dilution of the words “vegan” and “religious”, and I wouldn’t have brought it up otherwise.
As for speedwell, he or she also said explicitly “I’m a vegan”, dropping the “practically”. But even “practically vegan” was false. No one could reasonably be called “practically vegan” unless they are at minimum vegetarian, one step away from veganism. But speedwell eats fish, and so is not vegetarian. And the idea that a vegetarian or vegan can eat a non-veggie meal every other week is fucking ludicrous, I’m sorry, but your argument is laughable.
All this bickering over labels. For chuff’s sake! Vegetarians trying to assert moral superiority over m**t-eaters; vegans trying to assert moral superiority over vegetarians; raw-foodists trying to assert moral superiority over cooked-foodists, and so forth; allow me to introduce you to the painful truth. Nobody gives a flying one about what you do or don’t eat. Alright?
Most little boys grow out of pissing contests when they find something better to do with their dicks.
Way to misrepresent the discussion, AJS. Creationists’ tactics must have rubbed off on you.
As a vegan who is frustrated with people who say they are vegetarian and then eat fish (because subsequently, “vegetarian restaurants” serve fish – that drives me NUTS!), I am okay with people saying “I am practically ___” or “trying to be ___” or “most of my diet is ____”.
My pet peeve is when people create the illusion that vegetarians and vegans eat something that they actually don’t, not because of moral superiority but because it confuses things and basically makes it so I can’t eat anything not cooked by fellow vegans (or people who really get it). It is a convenience thing. And being a vegan for 15 years or so, I get really sick when people “screw up” – particularly dairy.
I like the label vegan because it increasingly has meaning, allowing me to say what I do (and don’t) eat without the whole listing, which is such a pain in the arse.
While I have not been a preachy vegan since I was a teenager, I do, however, notice that some meat-eaters/omnivores can make a very big deal out of veganism. It is most annoying. So I guess we all can be pains.