This would be an ordinary photo if it were a young girl and her father or grandfather.
But no… they’re a ‘couple’.
He’s forty, she’s eleven. And they are a couple – the Afghan man Mohammed F.* and the child Ghulam H.*. “We needed the money”, Ghulam’s parents said. Faiz claims he is going to send her to school. But the women of Damarda village in Afghanistan’s Ghor province know better: “Our men don’t want educated women.” They predict that Ghulam will be married within a few weeks after her engagement in 2006, so as to bear children for Faiz.
I guess pedophiles in Afghanistan have no shame. It’s tragic that that girl has just been condemned to a lifetime in the kitchen and the bedroom, something between being a slave and a pet.
But the prophet Mohammed married a 9 year old girl. And his god’s perfect example of how men should act. So this is not at all abuse. No.
Have I just set myself up to be fatwa-ed out of existence?
Bugger.
I saw this the other day at Shakesville. Absolutely vile.
Don’t be silly, PZ. We Western infidels are clearly the degenerate ones.
I know a soldier who spent time there. He said male homosexuality is very common. There are estimates that up to 50% of afghan men have homosexual sex.
Not that this equates to child sex, of course. But, it’s a very different world there.
It doesn’t necessarily follow that he’s a pedophile. Maybe he just wants to get the best value for his money by not wasting any of the fertile months he’s paid for.
I can’t say which is worse, they’re both off the bottom of the scale.
That guy is forty??? Time must behave differently in that part of the world.
A well-known atheist said secularists should come to terms with the historical fact that the various world religions have been the only societal force that has challenged us to transcend both materialism and our base instincts, such as lust, gluttony, greed, wrath, etc.
Hmmmmm
Cultural traditions can suck too.
This happens in the USA too. The Mormon polygamists force their very young, not well educated girls to marry older men. Since these cults aren’t too appealing to most people, frequently they are also closely related.
The leader of the FLDS just got sent to jail for this. About time, it has been known for decades what was going on.
The average lifespan in Afghanistan is 47. This is a third world trash heap.
This is terrible…even to someone who was raised in Montgomery Alabama.
OK, as an anthropologist I must step in here. There are a lot of cultures where the marriage itself is incredibly important in alliance formation, inheritance, etc. etc. such that the exact age of the married partners is not relevant. Often, sexual liaison between the partners is not important either. Most likely, this will only become a sexual union after she grows up (and this also depends on the attitudes of the guys pre-existing wife, and there probably is one).
There is one culture where all fetuses are married to a man, and if the baby turns out to be a boy, the marriage is annulled. Clearly, the term “marriage” matches across cultures in some ways and not in other ways.
Having said that, I now must say this: Cultural relativism is the idea that when we look at other cultures we don’t judge them because every culture is legitimate in its own way. Reality, in contrast, is where we understand that some cultures are totally fucked. Most likely that is the case here. But it is not really a case of a marriage across this great age gulf as we would understand it.
Probably. Or the guy could just be a ‘vert.
Greg,
As a sociologist, I appreciate your cautions, however this was stated explicitly in the article:
He bought a breeder cow….basically.
the rest of the description, from the link, is equally disheartening:
Then again, this is what happens when women are property valued primarily for their breeding capacity….that;s the central theme tying all of these together.
MAJeff:
Yes, as I said it is probably fucked. My comments are taking the perspective that we understand how cultures work more generally than we can understand how a particular situation plays out from some article on the internet. But take your point.
Someone once tried to explain to me why an obnoxious cultural attitude was OK because it was “part of their culture”. Her daughter piped up. “Well, then, their culture is fucked up.” End of conversation.
Sometimes the emperor just doesn’t have any clothes.
I… I take your point. Oh, you know what I meant…
Anthropology is great (I’m in bioanth), but, as others pointed out, in this case and many like it the girl will be expected to perform sexual acts with her husband. My reading has told me that marriages to girls who have experienced menarche are usually (not always) sexual in nature.
This is (from my non-culturally relative side) fucked!
/There are estimates that up to 50% of afghan men have homosexual sex./
Oh really?. We have a version of that here in the US. It’s also known as “on the downlow”. And most men who do this do not think of themselves as gay OR bi. Stats may not be 50% but it’s way beyond the 10% mark.
Oh, you know what I meant…
Yup.
One of the things I try to do with students, in dealing with cultural relativism, etc. is to note that there will be points of incommensurability between cultures, and you need to figure out how to decide between them, particularly if you’re stuck in the space between them or involved in such conflicts.
The shallow multi-culti view of “all cultures are equal and we can all just get along” neglects that some cultures very much don’t want to get along, and that there will sometimes be conflict because of absolute difference in the worldviews provided. Feeling good about everyone won’t be of much use.
Echidne is also careful about the culture.
Raven, if I may, what was that obnoxious cultural attitude, and what culture? Just curious. I myself have a more than a few gripes with both the culture at large and the sub-culture I was raised in. I spit on cultural relativism.
when asked directly, few deny that a significant percentage of men in this region have sex with men and boys. Just ask Mullah Mohammed Ibrahim, a local cleric.
“Ninety percent of men have the desire to commit this sin,” the mullah says. “But most are right with God and exercise control. Only 20 to 50% of those who want to do this actually do it.”
http://www.sodomylaws.org/world/afghanistan/afnews009.htm
Is it just me or is that dude smirking?
This article and several of the comments return for me a question about young men in general.
Concerning the LDS community, it is documented that they run their young men off and out. Reminds me of some of the nature shows that I watch where the subordinate young male is run off.
With absolutely no evidence, I have a thought that the prevalence of the down low fad is a result of the increased incarceration of young men in certain communities. They get out and continue the practices they accepted in prison. But they do not consider themselves at all gay.
The marriage (sale) of young girls to older men as pointed out, (India) is not at all the province of some Muslim cultures. It exists all over the world. Where is is not “sanctioned” by the culture, we just develop the sex trade and tourism to accomodate the “instinct”.
I think that the health of our humanity is not only measured by the plight of young women, but its young men as well.
The daughter, my friend, was working in Manhattan and was quite attractive. She received a lot of unwanted attention from males, mostly but not exclusively third worlders, mostly Puerto Ricans. Nothing major, a lot of whistling and ogling.
Hard to say how much of this was Puerto Rico and how much was just NYC.
I guess pedophiles in Afghanistan have no shame.
I’m not sure pedophile is the right word. In fact, I’m pretty sure it’s not. For all we know, this guy isn’t even looking forward to having sex with this girl but sees it as some sort of chore or duty to keep his farm running so he can pass it on to his sons.
And to any guy out there who has difficulty imagining that this guy is not lusting after this girl, perhaps you should seek medical attention.
Just sayin’.
Greg, I think you make a very good point (although my “blood boils” at the inequity). What’s your take on the parents who sold her because “we needed the money”?
Given the culture, do you think the parents perceive her as an object to be bartered and sold, like a goat or a sheep or do you think they saw this as a way to leave her in a better position for survival (and reproduction, where the offspring have a chance at surviving)?
It would be easy to see this situation solely from my own cultural perspective (nuke the bastard!) and my layperson knowledge of things anthropological tells me I’d be missing a lot.
I read something like this and think: We can’t rationally negotiate a reasonable concensus on issues in the U.S. (e.g. abortion, gay marriage, religion v science, yadda)and we demonize one another in an attempt to have it all one way …..so how in the heck are we in a position to criticize another culture?
This is all just so…well…irritating (I was going to say depressing except I don’t find it depressing – just irrationally annoying!)
Keep in mind that the girl likely knows about the sex, and will do what she needs to do to please her husband. It’s the way children are. There is one thing a child is afraid of doing, disappointing any adult in authority over him. And there is one thing a child is eager to do, please any adult in authority over him. Regardless of what we think of the situation, she will do her best to make him happen, no matter what it takes. And she will defend her husband as best she can.
Her mother and her married sisters told her all about it before the marriage. It’s what moms and married sisters do. I should expect her husband also acted with consideration for her age. Not every act of adult/child sex involves outright assault after all.
Was she ready? No. She needed more years under her belt, so to speak. Was she irreparably harmed? Again, no. How she fares in future years depends on her new family, most especially her husband and his other wives. We know of the destructive relationships—often fatal—between pedophiles and young children in our culture. But under radically different circumstances it can actually be beneficial for the child. It’s not as simple a situation as we’d like to think.
Studies have been done on the subject of child sexuality, and often the results are surprising. Gigablast the phrase “child sexuality” and read up on the medical literature.
Gigablast the phrase “child sexuality” and read up on the medical literature.
I really have to disagree with this advice.
That guy is forty??? Time must behave differently in that part of the world.
National Geographic did a followup on the teen Afghan girl that was their most popular cover ever and found her, middle aged at about 30. Life is harsh in Afghanistan, even when the wars are not.
LOL. Oh no. We aren’t descended from apes. In the nature shows, the subordinate males come back and fight and kill the dominant males and take over their women.
David Koresh gained control of the Branch Davidians IIRC, by killing one of his rivals.
After polygamist John Singer was killed by the cops, one of his followers out of the goodness of his heart, married his widow and 2 of her daughters. And shot another cop while
protecting his haremdefending his religion.BTW, there is no way that we are descended from monkeys. Couldn’t be.
This is where cultural relativism leads you:
University of Chicago anthropologist Richard Schweder, response to John Tierney in New York Times Magazine, 12/5/07:
http://tinyurl.com/3b9wak
“”Female genital mutilation” is an invidious and essentially debate-subverting label. …(M)any African women …object to naming a practice which they describe in local terms as “the celebration” or the “purification” or the “cleansing” or the “beautification” as “the mutilation”.
….Fact checking has not been the strong suit of anti-“FGM” advocacy groups …
My conclusion from reading those three publications is that the harmful practice claim has been highly exaggerated and that many of the representations in the advocacy literature and the popular press are nearly as fanciful as they are nightmarish.”
Of course, many scholars and activists have no problem switching off their cultural relativism when it comes to their own culture, or particular demographic and subcultural groups within their culture. (I suppose that they are following Jesus’ message about splinters, beams, and eyes to an extreme degree.)
Cultural relativism is most useful as a methodological strategy that acknowledges that condemning cultural practices does not necessarily contribute to our instrumental understanding of them. However, by this interpretation of cultural relativism, nothing prevents us from making ethical, moral, and political value judgments about our own or other cultures beyond the requirements of scientific inquiry.
Some have even taken cultural relativism to mean an ethnological truth relativism, that is, there is no reason to privilege “Western” science and biomedicine in relation to traditional nonwestern ways of knowing and ethnomedical practices.
“Othering,” schmothering. Imagine the 40 year man and his 11 year old bride in Mormon or Southern Baptist attire, and see how willing you are to come up with rationalizations.
A little perspective please. I’m a gay man, and once I leave the state I live in, I lose the right to marry. To be honest, I’d say that’s not nearly as big a deal as BEING SOLD AS A CHILD. I’ll be honest, and maybe it’s because I don’t have a boyfriend and don’t really have any desire to marry, but that does seem to be a huge difference in scope and scale of injustice.
According to the UNICEF article, this marriage is illegal, since the legal age of consent for marriage in Afghanistan is 16.
A couple other thoughts/questions. Did this marriage take place in a Taliban-controlled area? If so, the fact you can see her face is even more telling, in that she hasn’t even reached the age where she’s required to cover up.
Agreed, particularly with the bolded part. I actually prefer to call it methodological relativism.
Total idiot. I’ve heard this before. In California, when the boat people and other refugees were flooding in, there were some problems.
1. The Cambodians and to a lesser extent the Vietnamese had a habit of going hunting for cats and dogs. To eat. This is common over there. Needless to say, it didn’t make the neighbors happy when fluffy or rover ended up on the barbie. California passed a law against eating dogs and cats. As far as I know, the problem disappeared.
2. They also used to beat their wives. The cops got pretty aggressive about tossing the men in jail first and asking questions later. As far as I know, spouse abuse is no longer any higher than the US average.
In both cases some morons said, “It is just part of the culture.” To which the cops said, “We don’t care. If we catch you, you are going to jail until you stop and if that doesn’t work, go back to a refugee camp somewhere in SE Asia. Most adults catch on fast when it is in their interest to do so.
cultural relativism can be useful. when gently cautioned that some old man’s tantrum because his authority in the confucian hierarchy had been disrespected was my fault for not being culturally sensitive, i could justifiably reply that, well, giving a smart ass reply and making fun of a pompous asshole is my culture, and confucianism is not. isn’t diversity great?
To #37 Miko, what are you saying. Be straight and clea, as you intended to go above my head you have.
Me thinks you are making a snarky comment about PZ but I can hardly tell.
Now children, I don’t see what the fuss is all about. After all, Mary, the mother of our savior Jesus H. Christ was almost certainly 13 or 14 when GOD knew her. (And when I say “knew her”, I mean he KNEW her. *wink wink, nudge nudge*)
Now think about that a moment: He’s somewhere between 3000 and ∞, she’s 14. Now that’s an age difference.
How could you possibly know this from a photograph?
I can certainly imagine that this might be more beneficial for her than certain alternatives, but I’d be interested to see the evidence you’d provide that this would be “beneficial” in absolute terms. Especially since this is in a culture that is largely opposed to birth control, and with regard to the much greater risks of pregnancy for preteen girls even in the best of circumstances, which she isn’t.
However:
Why exactly?
Even in mainstream US culture, engagement and marriage typically involve financial transactions. First the suitor offers his intended an expensive gem; then, if the offer is accepted, the bride’s family reciprocates by footing the bill for the celebration. We’re obviously a lot freer to modify or ignore these traditions than the average Afghani is, but the traditions themselves are ultimately rooted in the same ideas of daughters as financial assets to be bargained away advantageously.
My own feeling has long been that no enlightened couple should marry until they can afford to pay for the party out of their own pockets.
See, this is what I think “the cops” should do about the culture of corruption that defines the Bush administration and various hangers on. Start with the aggressive war crime. Then the torture crimes. Then the wire-tapping crimes. Then the ….. “to infinity and beyond!” crimes.
“no enlightened couple should marry until they can afford to pay for the party out of their own pockets.”
Good heavens! If people followed that practice, then they might delay marriage until they’re old enough to make rational decisions, and then what would become of of the divorce lawyers? Without divorce lawyers, who’d be buying porsches, $300 dinners, $2,000 watches, $5,000 suits, and forking over the political contributions to keep the politicians in business? Think, man, think! The whole economy is at stake!
Sheesh!
-jcr
Not every act of adult/child sex involves outright assault after all.
Absolutely! Only those cases where the child cannot consent to sex. All the rest are to be considered models of true love, affection, and/or efficient management of household resources.
Was she ready? No. She needed more years under her belt, so to speak. Was she irreparably harmed? Again, no.
Again, truer words where never spoken, as vaginal lacerations and genital fistulas do tend to heal in time. And as long as a child isn’t irreparably harmed, but only somewhat, or even quite, damaged, what’s the problem?
@MAJeff re # 34 & #35
I completely agree with you that the dumb-ass idiocy you have to deal with in the only-relatively-religious U.S. PALES in comparison with being sold as a child.
My point IS: how do we deal with this on a world basis, where culture is entirely relative, whether one likes the situation or not, and one has no real power to change another culture in a peaceful manner.
In the “old” days, it was (if one’s group won the battle) easy to deal with:
a) Kill ALL of the conquered (humans & domesticated animals)
b) Kill the humans, keep the domesticated animals
c) Kill the adult humans and all male children and keep the young (I would guess 5-6 through prepubescent, but not infant and young toddler – that requires too much “investment” in terms of care) females for slavery and breeding purposes.
In the 21st century (according to my U.S. culture), I am wondering if humanity will ever discover a d).
I assume what Alan Kellogg meant was that not every case of sex between an adult and a child involves a struggling child being held down and forcibly penetrated; as I understand it, this is true, albeit of little relevance to the consent issue.
Any thoughts on the Marshall Plan?
Yes there is an answer that does not start with Kill. It is to take advantage of information and transportation. Go there. Meet people. Let people meet and expand. Get books, computers and endeavors that give an alternative. And I ain’t talk bringin tainted blankets and preachers. Just build economies and friendships. It does not work overnite.
Good point. The USA is not the world’s culture or thought police, no matter how many people we kill proving that it doesn’t work.
But it isn’t hopeless. Culture is fluid and changes rapidly. The Chinese used to bind female feet, a crippling cosmetic practice that makes no sense. In the early 20th century, the new Chinese government told everyone to stop it because it was dumb and it ended rather suddenly.
The Afghanis pay a high price for their medieval mindset. Lifespan of 47, and running water, electricity, and modern medicine are very scarce. Violent death is common. But they are very religious. It is a third world trash heap.
In an increasingly small and interconnected world, successful cultures thrive and advance and unsuccessful ones go by the wayside. These cultures steal the best from all the others.
The USA was one of the best. A science and technology based meritocracy coupled with reasonably honest government, freedom, and entrepreneurial capitalism produced the world’s last remaining superpower.
Ironically, the biggest opponents of our civilization are the religious fanatics. Not the Moslems. The Xian fundies. The Moslems are over there, mostly killing each other. The fundies are here and running our government.
This information makes me ill.
In #40, Azkyroth asked:
I believe the remark was a reference to some aspects of Pete Townshend’s life.
“This happens in the USA too. The Mormon polygamists force their very young, not well educated girls to marry older men.”
Well yes but how can we ever spin that into “Muslims are animals so it’s alright to kill them”?
“The youngest brides live in the Indian state of Rajasthan, where 15% of all wives are not even 10 years old …”
Funny how we hardly ever see that splashed across blogs.
Still one day we’ll be at war with Eastasia and at peace with Eurasia and it’ll be our duty as good members of the outer party to decry the filthy subhuman Hindu perverts. (They have no respect for human life, you know. They’ll walk past dying people and not help them because they believe in reincarnation.)
“when asked directly, few deny that a significant percentage of men in this region have sex with men and boys. Just ask Mullah Mohammed Ibrahim, a local cleric.”
Funny, widespread tolerance of homosexuality in western societies is a sing of tolerance, enlightenment and liberal virtue but in Muslim societies it’s another sign of their backward ignorance.
No double standard here.
Nope.
Oh and anyone who wants to tell me how this isn’t an attack on Islam just on particular practioners of Islam and particular customs in particular parts of the Muslim world feel free to point to all PZ’s no doubt numerous posts about underage prostitution in Thailand; sister-marriage in Taiwan; sexual exploitation of children by the Lord’s Resistance Army and other African guerilla groups etc.
I’m also curious why the people pushing the “We’re not saying it’s ALL Muslims therefoe its not prejudice” line never seem to object to posts like the very first one in this thread.
I’m sure the people behind the Jewwatch site will also tell you they aren’t prejudiced against ALL Jews.
“After all, Mary, the mother of our savior Jesus H. Christ was almost certainly 13 or 14 when GOD knew her. ”
Not to ,mention that righteous man, Lot who knew his daughters after God went out of his way to save him from the destrcution of Sodom.
Somehow if the marriage in question involved Hassidic Jews and the first response was to point ot Lot as proof that us Jews are all a bunch of pedophiles I doubt that it’d pass unremarked.
But hey since my Israeli cousins have demonstrated their outstanding Arab-killing ability we’ve been elevated to honorary Aryans so any such comments woudl be grossly unfair and intolerant.
“I’m also curious why the people pushing the “We’re not saying it’s ALL Muslims therefoe its not prejudice” line never seem to object to posts like the very first one in this thread.”
Probably because the sticks up our asses aren’t as big as yours.
“My point IS: how do we deal with this on a world basis, where culture is entirely relative,…”
Except it isn’t, that’s why there are such things as the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the Convention on the Rights of the Child.
So how do we prevent shit liek this happening.
Firstly, we start actually enforcing the various treaties which virtually all governments have signed up. (Enforcing meaning a rising scale of sanctions and penalties with armed force being the last resort option.)
Secondly, we analyse WHY this shit is happening and how to stop it. Now, we can say “Mohammed was a kiddy-fucker and all those dirty camel-jockeys are too” and sign on with Ann Coulter and her “Kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity by force” agenda. (Or “…convert them to liberalism and atheism” if that sits better with people around here.)
Or we can be honest and say that human rights violations are most common in poor and war-torn countries regardless of the particular religion practised there. Which suggests that instead of tut-tutting about the savage Muslims and congratulating ourselves on our on virtue we focus on reducing poverty, improving education and preventing wars.
(The most effective tool for reducing poverty is free trade. Anyone who claims to care about the plight of the third world who opposes free access to the developed world markets for the developing world’s products is either a fool, a hypocrite or both.)
Damn it, Ian Gould, if you simply have to troll can’t you at least be amusing about it?
Ian,
Well, recall that they got him drunk in order to facilitate the knowing (as part of a mission that seems like a biblical tip of the hat to evolutionary theory).
But I do take your point that the knee-jerk demonization of Muslims is troubling.
That guy is forty??? Time must behave differently in that part of the world.
So it must seem to the pasty and chubby.
(The most effective tool for reducing poverty is free trade. Anyone who claims to care about the plight of the third world who opposes free access to the developed world markets for the developing world’s products is either a fool, a hypocrite or both.)
I would agree if by “free trade” you mean fair trade, but the markets created by corporate-crafted book-length regulations like NAFTA are anything but free.
Funny, widespread tolerance of homosexuality in western societies is a sing of tolerance, enlightenment and liberal virtue but in Muslim societies it’s another sign of their backward ignorance.
Um, homosexuality is tolerated in Muslim societies the way it’s tolerated by Larry Craig.
But I agree about your larger point about Muslim bashing, which is thick on this thread, on this blog, and in this culture.
here’s the original article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/magazine/09BRI.html
I especially feel sad for these girls because they’re made domestic slaves for the older wives. Living in a house where you’re not wanted or wanted too much.
As an American Soldier currently stationed in Ghor Province (the Province talked about in the story) I think I’ve got a pretty decent perspective on what goes on here, so I’ll share.
First, as is said in the story, women and girls (mostly girls, really) are sold here, usually for somewhere between $10K and $20K each and usually before they’re 18. I’ve talked to Afghans from other Provinces and they consider this extremely backwards, so this isn’t a national issue, it’s very localized. It’s localized because Ghor Province is one of the most poor and most isolated in the country. Because of this poverty and isolation, the people here tend to be a lot more conservative than they would be in, say, Herat or Kabul. Almost all of the women here still wear burqas or, at the very least, cover their faces. This despite the fact that the Taliban are nowhere near here and are almost universally hated here.
As far as the treatment of the girl goes after marriage, I think it depends on who she ends up getting married to. If, like in this story, she is married to a 40 year old man, then she is likely being sent off to a life of hard work and baby making. On the other hand, I’ve talked to younger men here who seem to genuinely want their wife to be educated (once they can afford a wife) and have no plans to make her wear a burqa or cover her face.
Views on polygamy also vary from person to person, though not based on age, as far as I can tell. Some young people still see many wives and children as a sign of status in this culture, while others think that one wife is enough and have no desire to have more.
On to the homosexuality. This has a lot to do with the aforementioned bride price. 10-20 thousand dollars is a shitload of money here. Unless a young man is lucky enough to have had his family sell off one of his sisters for a similar price or if he works as a translator, he is unlikely to see that kind of money in over a decade of work. In addition, even after a man is “engaged” he isn’t allowed to have much contact with his future bride until after they’re married. So, with heterosexual sex unavailable, they turn to homosexual sex.
So, that’s my two cents on the subject.
“(The most effective tool for reducing poverty is free trade. Anyone who claims to care about the plight of the third world who opposes free access to the developed world markets for the developing world’s products is either a fool, a hypocrite or both.)”
“free trade” is an illusion. International trade regulated by the World Bank and the IMF is organized to benefit multi-national corporations. It is anything but free, and is simply a form of neo-colonialism.
‘The most effective tool for reducing poverty…’
Health and education. Bill Hicks suggested the headline, we just need to fill in the tactics and details. The sooner we let everyone on the planet know what is intended, the sooner these micro-symptoms as well as the macro ones will begin to disappear.
Thanks for the input, redlegphi. You’ve given us a more complete picture of what’s going on.
Imagine the beard away… the face looks quite smooth.
And the wars went on without interruption for about 20 years…
Imagine the beard away… the face looks quite smooth.
And the wars went on without interruption for about 20 years…
Ian,
Yes, PZ has commented on abuse of women and children in third-world cultures before. However, this issue is tangential to the main focus of his blog, and it’s his blog after all. If this blog was titled “Documenting Every Third-World Crime Against Women and Children” you might have a point.
PZ and others here have also gone especially hard on the mouth-genital aspects of traditional Hassidic circumcision.
From a purely numerical standpoint it seems that Muslims account for more of these incidents than any other single cultural group. That having been said, it’s not surprising that Muslims get the lion’s share of attention.
(Oops, forgot to close italics tag on prev post)
There are estimates that up to 50% of afghan men have homosexual sex.
I don’t think this is relevant to the discussion of child brides. My take on this is it’s situational homosexuality. Men are pigs and will hump most anything when desperate. That doesn’t mean they continue with homosexual behavior when their preferred outlet becomes available.
Oh really?. We have a version of that here in the US. It’s also known as “on the downlow”. And most men who do this do not think of themselves as gay OR bi. Stats may not be 50% but it’s way beyond the 10% mark.
OK, the “downlow” phenom is part of the black gay subculture. Black culture is notoriously homophobic, particularly in regards to gay black men.
Keep in mind that child brides marrying muchg older men was once a common practice in Europe. This was true among both the merchant and upper classes. Had Juliet not found Romeo, she probably would have been married off to an established merchant in his 30s or 40s. The combination of men old enough to have established the means to raise a family and women young enough to be fertile is not an uncommon mix.
#71 jim a
Yeah but as you quite rightly say, it was 500 years ago. We’ve changed since then.
The most effective tool for reducing poverty is free trade. Anyone who claims to care about the plight of the third world who opposes free access to the developed world markets for the developing world’s products is either a fool, a hypocrite or both
Because a Hello Kitty backpack will do away with practices like this. Yup.
This is just so nasty!
I found a better copy of that picture (fewer “artifacts”).
Take a close look at the girl’s expression.
Would you call that love and joy? Or fear and resentment?
On a comment above: the man’s face doesn’t look “smooth”. Unless odd diagonal shadows are on his face but not his turban or shirt, those look like scars… which wouldn’t be astounding in that region.
Oh man. My daughter’s eleven.
And my stomach really hurts.
vaginal lacerations and genital fistulas do tend to heal in time.
For all you know this girl’s vagina is plenty big enough to handle this guy, who might be the most gentle lover on earth.
Again, calling this guy a “pedophile” is simply factually incorrect, regardless of your position on the merits of different cultures.
I have a simple question. Why is any man[and here I use that word loosely], why is any man attracted to a little girl like this? To rephrase, why would he want to have sex with her?
Give me a middle age woman with THE ABILITY TO CARRY ON A MATURE AND INTELLIGENT CONVERSATION, 5 or ten extra pounds, a pretty face,and the inability to get enough sex, now I’m a happy man.
Watch CNN’s “lifting the veil” for some prospective. I found the portion showing how these women, some really just girls, drench themselves in kerosene and set themselves alight, to be oh so very pleasent. his is how they protest. This “culture” subjugates and enslaves women.
The number one thing that any society can do is to liberate it’s female population, making sure they have full rights. This action brings great health to any country.
I would like to speak directly to Great White Wonder from post #77. A pedophile prey’s on the innocence of children. Whether he gets what he wants by paying the parents, or kidnapping, he is raping a child who does not have the emotional capacity to handle sex, regardless of how “big” [as you put it] her vagina is. I am keeping my temper in check as I type here. Did you find yourself edgy in making such a comment? I find you disgusting.
@36
Here is the quote I found about the British Abolishing the practice of sutee in India (
No idea who actually said this. );
The fact that you even entertained this thought long enough to type it out makes me strongly suspect you have never been an 11-year-old girl.
Some photos that were not published, or picked up for dissemination by PZ Myers, a professed objective scientist.
American troops RAPING and MURDERING innocent Iraqi girls OF ALL AGES.
Israeli fighter jets bombing innocent Palestinian women and their children of all ages in the deadly Gaza concentration camp.
Senator Joe Lieberman publically demanding the preemptive murder of millions of innocent Iranian children of all ages.
apparently, gerald is cool with the selling of children.
Selling, manipulating, bombing, raping, murdering … all of it is as foul and dastardly as humans are capable of.
Any scientists here-about trying to make the world just a little bit better?
Only a childish fool would use the word cool about any of it.
I am appalled and disgusted at the ignorant, cavalier, and mean-spirited comments routinely posted on this website in the name of science.
Boo-hoo.
Fuck off.
Boo-hoo.
Fuck off.
but, Brownian, he’s so earnest.
Get a blog gerald. Then you can talk about whatever you want, and you can complain about whomever you want. There’s no requirement that people post what you think is important. If you think it’s important, get a blog and post about it.
Until then, do try to stay on topic and stop whining about what you think should be posted.
Freelunch #31:
This really says it all about the lives of Afghan women, doesn’t it?
http://www.stefangeens.com/000133.html
Spezio: See my comment #69. Do you honestly think there are enough hours in the day for any blogger, even a full-time professional one with a staff (which PZ is not), to comment on every single frickin’ issue?
Gerald Spezio:
I take it by your trolling idiocy that you are merely defending some cultural affinity to old men marrying female children?
Thanks for stopping by. Please see comment #85.
“cool” – from a grad student in sociology!
“boo hoo” –
“fuck off” –
“fuck off” – from the same grad student in sociology!
“defending …old men marrying female children”
Phew, juvenile psychologizing, “reading in.” jumping to preposterous conclusions, and having a fun time in junior high school…
guess what gerry, I teach too. ain’t that fucking cool?!
Don’t you hate PANTS?!
Don’t you hate PANTS?!
i’m sorry, I didn’t know you, Jay Leno, and a monkey were washing a clown.
Thanks for the personality assessment. What are you, a fucking online dating site?
Go home, lock your door (to keep those Jews out), and take a hot bath.
Junior high school is too general.
Seventh-grade may be more precise.
you’re a very silly man, gerry.
I’m with spezio.
Fuck all this science, godless, and liberal crap. This blog should be renamed Palistyngula and concentrate FULL TIME ON CRITIsIZINg THE ZIONIST JOOOOOOZ!!!1!!!!!
guess that oughta be an “e”
must…sleep…
Okay, sixth grade.
No, Seventh-grade is more precise.
It is not, however, more accurate.
–From Brownian’s essay on the difference between accuracy and precision for Ms. Matymchuk’s Grade 7B Science Class.
oh no, gerry’s pulling out the big guns.
Precision and Accuracy.
Accuracy, precision, testing, evidence, objectivity, and relentless searching for unbiased truth – who did what to whom …
So, does PZ’s very loaded post and the comments to his post advance or retard the scientific enterprise.
silly man, very silly man.
Say it slooooowly: Blog.
Nope. Not “science.”
Blog.
Silly.
Well, this blog does tie up a lot of creationist trolls’ time, preventing them from molesting other scientists.
And my pithy quips get other commenters’ Thinkions™ flowing through their brain pipes.
So, the verdict is ‘advance’.
Ohhhh, it’s just blogging fun, at least for some!
What a “silly” dunderhead.
I thought that it was a science blog.
PZ’s post and image, most especially if genuine, although that is not established, are so ugly and horrifying that I must have over-reacted and spoiled the fun.
Mea culpa!
If it is ever shown to be super slick agit-prop as much of our propagandized world has become, I will be even more bummed out.
gerry, how worn out is your copy of the Protocols?
you are batshit. simply batshit.
Yessir, tens of thousands of hapless bewildered Muslim Iraqi children, as well as thousands of American troops in Iraq have truly been driven “batshit.”
And those are some of the lucky ones.
PZ’s post is foul Muslim bashing without any qualification.
For those who have their righteous indignation triggers set off by any depiction of malign practices that happen to occur in the Muslim world (or more broadly, the nonwestern world) – indignation not directed against the practice, but against those who call attention to them: nice set of double standards you have there.
Spezio rants again. What, no idiosyncratic spelling of P.R. (“peeyar”) this time?
Gerry, get a fucking clue. It’s possible to despise the invasion of Iraq and to despise the sale of child brides. Indeed some of us here have actually organized, marched and protested against the damned thing.
Your inability to deal with the fact that there are people who actually engage in this practice, that it’s not an Israeli propaganda ploy, makes you a misogynist and a denialist. Your insistence on turning every thread into a conversation about your topic, and about your insane accusations that nothing can ever be unless it comes out of some kind of Jewish propaganda agency.
You are fucking insane.
Batshit.
Get a clue and begone.
What, no idiosyncratic spelling of P.R. (“peeyar”) this time?
Is that what that was? Silly, very silly.
I’ve seen that thousand-yard-stare on the faces of young girls before. I saw the same stare on the faces of the teenage wives in Hilldale, Utah and Colorado City, Arizona.
There’s nothing culturally relativistic about the traumatization of immature females forced into marital/a-marital sex slavery. It’s painful, it’s sick, and it’s wrong.
Two days ago PZ posted about a British tabloid article laying out how a Muslim mother and suicide bomber was teaching her daughter the ghastly skills of suicide bombing.
Only one commentator expressed any doubt about the veracity of the tabloid article.
I responded;
When confronted with conflicting claims about the world, scientists, by definition, must ask some basic and mandatory questions.
1 Are the claims true or false?
2 What operations did you perform to arrive at your conclusions about the conflicting claims.
3 What speaks for your position and what speaks against it?
When I read much of the posting on PZ’s science website, I routinely observe the most childish unscientific passions.
Posted by: gerald spezio | December 19, 2007 12:04 PM
We heard you the first twenty thousand times.
We don’t care what you observe.
Fuck off.
relevance? How is this post, highlighting the UNICEF photo of the year, which, if you followed the damned link, is highlighting the world-wide phenomenon of the selling of child brides. But no, that’s part of a Jewish conspiracy to demonize Muslims.
This is an actual practice. This is an actual picture of two real people. You are willing to write off the selling of a child, the use of female bodies as currencies, in order to spread your insane conspiracy theories. Gerry, you’re a misogynist. You’re an ideological fuckwit incapable of actually analyzing any kind of data, and that’s why your appeals to “science” are so hilarious.
You’re a joke.
tata
put another way, gerry, you’re not a well man…or a good man.
From a purely numerical standpoint it seems that Muslims account for more of these incidents than any other single cultural group. That having been said, it’s not surprising that Muslims get the lion’s share of attention.
You can’t discount bias on the basis of numbers when perception of the numbers is often a result of bias (“seems” is not data). Here’s a question for you: how is FGM better correlated, with Muslims or with Africans?
And you, Sir, are a “sociologist” and “teacher.”
Here’s a question for you: how is FGM better correlated, with Muslims or with Africans?
Wait, I know this one.
It’s perfectly correlated with women.
And you, Sir, are a “sociologist” and “teacher.”
And fucking great at both of ’em.
Honestly, what you’ve written would receive grade of F. You’ve engaged in no analysis. You’ve failed to accept existing data and deal with it honestly. Both your interpretive ethics and analytical skills are quite simply nonexistent. Honestly, from what I’ve seen, you would do extremely poorly in any class requiring critical analytical skills.
tata
by the way gerry, you don’t get to only ask questions.
How worn is your copy of the Protocols?
Brownian, I most assuredly care what you claim to observe.
Indeed, that is explicitly why I am continuing here.
As a professed and practicing empirical scientist, I don’t have any choice, unless I change the rules.
*snort*
*giggle*
Except that, Gerald, so far you’ve done nothing but observe.
-You’ve hijacked threads.
-You’ve misinterpreted other’s comments by failing to read them.
-You’ve criticised others for their disinterest in your professed subject of choice.
If that’s what you consider observing, then I’d hate to see you watching a football game. You’d run out in the middle of the field and demand everyone play baseball with you as umpire.
I don’t know what field you consider yourself a scientist in, but you’d make one fucking terrible anthropologist.
Except that, Gerald, so far you’ve done nothing but observe.
Um, I meant, “you’ve done anything but observe”.
MAJeff stated above;
“One of the things I try to do with students, in dealing with cultural relativism, etc. is to note that there will be points of incommensurability between cultures, and you need to figure out how to decide between them, particularly if you’re stuck in the space between them or involved in such conflicts.”
If this is your prescription for doing social science, you are demonstrating it very well.
“(P)oints of incommensurability(sic)between cultures” is literary gibberish conveying absolutely no information.
“how to decide between them” is more un-operationalized gibberish.
“Stuck in the space between them” is a prescription for intellectual suicide, or an possibly an exercise in science fiction.
You are a muddleheaded “sociologist” alright!
Oh, this should be good. Gerry’s actually going to try and pay attention to content and do textual analysis now. Damn, no popcorn in the house.
Look, there is an actual photograph of Big foot.
Look, I have seen water dowsers find water. It works!
He can talk to the dead. He talked to my aunt Mabel.
The children were abused, and the janitor was nearby.
If Carlos Castenada says that Don Juan flew through the air, what more evidence do you need?
I’ve heard Winterreisse described as a descent into madness. That’s art, but this is actually more entertaining.
And the man continues to hijack the thread with his irrelevancies.
Real observant.
” a fucking great” sociologist/teacher doing science.
Who knows who is well and who isn’t.
He just knows it.
“snort”
“giggle”
“no popcorn.”
“Stuck in the space …”
It’s all so incommensurable too!
gerry, time for your meds.
Who controls the British crown?
Who keeps the metric system down?
We do! We do!
Who keeps Atlantis off the maps?
Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do! We do!
Who holds back the electric car?
Who makes Steve Guttenberg, a star?
We do! We do!
Who robs cave fish of their sight?
Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do! We do!
If the truth or falsehood of any claim about the world or any claim about any cultural practice is irrelevant, we are all completely lost and objective science is played out.
Lying, distortion, doctoring the data, phony photos, phony stories, pitched stories, and propaganda is rampant.
Scientific skepticism battles against it – tooth and claw.
Gah!
“This happens in the USA too. The Mormon polygamists force their very young, not well educated girls to marry older men.”
You do realize that the polygamists that you are referring to are no more ‘mormon’ than the protestants are catholic?
The LDS church has not practiced polygamy (polygyny actually, multiple husbands were never a part of it.) for over a hundred years now. They NEVER had a practice of driving off their young males. At that point in time, they’d already lost too many of their men to the mobs of Illinois, the Extermination Order in Missouri, and then the trip across the plains.
The people you are referring to are a breakaway faction, and as such are absolutely NOT considered to be members of the LDS church.
As I find myself saying far too often here; If we want to talk about how bad some religion/cult/sect is, could we AT LEAST be sure we’re discussing actual beliefs of that group?
Isn’t this one of the ways that violence between sects is started? Rumors that the jews used the blood of catholic infants in their rites helped to cause untold deaths. Why follow -that- example when we’re supposed to be the ones pitching reason and reality to the masses?
I’m NOT saying that the LDS religion is correct, I don’t think any of them are. I’m just hoping that you’ll try to stick to the truth when you snipe at them.
Looking at both sides of the religious/rational argument allowed me to realise that one side was lying, and so choose the other. How are people going to choose if they discover that BOTH sides are lying to them? It’s not likely to convince them to leave or even seriously reconsider their religion. The one they’re in will get the benefit of the doubt if both sides are questionable. The rational side -should- do all they can to give correct information and not pass on rumors.
It really matters! Any ‘mormon’ who reads this will likely immediately brush off the lot of you as people saying a lot without knowing the facts. Why should they listen to you?
The Lesser of Two Weevils
“I have a simple question. Why is any man[and here I use that word loosely], why is any man attracted to a little girl like this? To rephrase, why would he want to have sex with her?”
It has very little to do with attraction. It has everything to do with status. More wives is still more status. And when you consider that pretty much every single girl here is married by the age of 18, it’s inevitable that men are going to be getting their wives younger and younger.
To be clear, this isn’t an endorsement of the practice. I’m just trying to explain how this kind of thing happens over here.
“relevance? How is this post, highlighting the UNICEF photo of the year, which, if you followed the damned link, is highlighting the world-wide phenomenon of the selling of child brides. But no, that’s part of a Jewish conspiracy to demonize Muslims.”
Yeah as a Jew I’m all about exposing the evil Jewish plots.
I’m sure you’ve read the exposes in the Deutsche Beabachter about how they corre3ct decent Christian girls with their opium and nigger be-bop.
This isn’t propaganda it’s a sincere effort to protect women and open up a free and totally unbiased and unprejudiced dialog about why Jews are degenerate perverts.
gerry got a friend!
It’s so much fun to watch people try and wave away the fact that girls are being sold into “marriages” and to justify the use of women’s bodies as currency and objects to be traded.
How much other violence against women are Ian and gerry willing to countenance, or at least look the other way about?
I bet Ghulum would be glad we’re all discussing her, at least. But she probably doesn’t have internet access…
MOST people in the world think this way. The Western way is the exception, not the norm. Our “ways” are recent and anomolous, theirs are close the original Darwinian imperatives.
In places with greater inequality of wealth, daughters are bought and sold, protected and bartered, never sons. Sons sow wild oats, daughters risk being ruined.
Most cultures see women of all ages as “possessions” and “objects”. Paradoxically females are the most abused minority in the world – even though they constitute half of humanity.
We know from evolutionary psychology and ethnography that for instance, men tend to be larger and more aggressive than women, typical of polygynous mammals; more cultures allow polygny (708 out of 849), than polyandry and monogamy (4 and 137 respectively); males more often seek sexual variety, physical indicators of female fecundity such as youth and blooming health, while females are more often drawn to indicators of male wealth or
wealth-gaining potential, including power – Henry Kissinger’s ‘ultimate aphrodisiac.’
These probably hardwired programs are often taken to excess, like the tendency to seek faces is taken to excess -similar ones include tendencies to “see” faces. They know no boundaries. Western culture is the froth on the surface.
OF COURSE this is wrong, of course we need to hear more of this, but they should be used as a reminder that culture is one of the only things that stops people from crossing the line in terms of human relationships and socirty structure and norms and mores etc…EO Wilson said the question is how long is the leash that culture keeps on biology.
Coming from Mr. “Everything is a Jewish Conspiracy!” that might turn my irony meter into a weapon of mass destruction.
You might see if the Discovery Institute is hiring. Your research tactics and debate skills would fit right in.
BTW, most of that ill treatment of women/girls in such areas predates Islam and goes far beyond any of its backwardness.
Great White Wonder wrote:
“For all you know this girl’s vagina is plenty big enough to handle this guy, who might be the most gentle lover on earth.
“Again, calling this guy a “pedophile” is simply factually incorrect, regardless of your position on the merits of different cultures.”
Your casual dismissal of blatant child rape is most telling. “Big enough to handle?” First, the body of a pre-pubescent child is not ready for sexual contact with an adult. Second, even if it was it would still be rape since no child is capable of truly consenting. Period.
Consent, which you refuse to bother with, is necessary to our understanding of basic human rights and civil liberties. According to your implication, the raping of adult women isn’t that bad b/c they’re physically capable of engaging in sex (Who knows, maybe the rapist was “gentle?”). However, rape is not merely a physical violation of a person’s body, but a deeply psychological trauma. Rape is not called a weapon of war for nothing!
The only way for him not to be a pedophile is for her not to be a child. The girl is 11, for crying out loud! If pre-pubescent person not a child then who is? She is a young child and he is most definitely a child rapist. And you are a child rape apologist–without question.
Here’s a question for you: how is FGM better correlated, with Muslims or with Africans?
Wait, I know this one.
It’s perfectly correlated with women.
That’s like answering “Which is larger, e^pi or pi^e?” with “Wait, I know this one. They’re both numbers.”
“For all you know this girl’s vagina is plenty big enough to handle this guy, who might be the most gentle lover on earth.
“Again, calling this guy a “pedophile” is simply factually incorrect, regardless of your position on the merits of different cultures.”
Your casual dismissal of blatant child rape is most telling. “Big enough to handle?”
You inability to engage in an intellectually honest exchange, as evidenced by dishonestly combining two different comments by GWW in order to create an offensive strawman, is telling. The “big enough” and “gentle” comment was solely in response to a comment about “vaginal lacerations and genital fistulas”. Positing circumstances in which such lacerations might not occur has nothing to do with dismissing rape, any more than the facts of evolution have anything to do with justifying social inequalities, an equally stupid charge of the fundies. (Note that, while the child is not a voluntary party to the marriage and thus any matrimonial sex would be coerced, she’s not likely to resist her husband, so forensic signs of rape may be missing.) GWW’s comment about whether this guy is a pedophile was a separate comment in response to a different statement, and made the point that there is no evidence that this man is sexually attracted to children — which is what pedophilia is. Saying that this guy isn’t a pedophile isn’t at all the same as saying that this liason isn’t a cruel and abusive sexual slavery or that any sex that occurs between them isn’t child rape. But child rape and pedophilia are two different things, even though the former is usually (in our culture, at least) a consequence of the latter.
BTW, GWW’s point that this guy isn’t a pedophile is crucial to understanding how to address the problem — something that few here seem at all interested in, preferring the ego gratification of feeling themselves morally superior to Muslims or Afghans. (Did you support RAWA before 9/11? Do you support it now? Do you even know what it is?) Hormone or aversion therapy and ankle bracelets won’t do the trick; this sort of thing is the result of socioeconomic conditions, and U.S. foreign policy has quite a bit to do with it. (“Charley Wilson’s War” might be interesting viewing, but don’t expect it to provide the full story.)
Seems like an excessive version (due to economics) of this:
Why men like to marry younger women
By Roger Highfield, Science Editor
The reason that men like to marry women who are years younger than
themselves has been discovered: they have more grandchildren as a result. And it turns out that men have the most children when their partners are around 15 years their junior…
*sigh*
In other words, it refers to an abnormal and uncontroversially pathological psychological condition, not the the act of raping a child. The word you want is “child molester.” There is no evidence here that this man is “primarily attracted to children” rather than marrying her for socioeconomic, cultural, and strategic reasons. Calling a person an “apologist” for contesting the use of labels in a fashion at odds with their actual meaning is idiotic.
Calling a person an “apologist” for contesting the use of labels in a fashion at odds with their actual meaning is idiotic.
Unfortunately, idiots like Nathan M. rarely come back to read the refutations to their ignorant rants.
What passes for ‘feminists’ today don’t discuss the problems women face in these cultures much. It doesn’t enhance their power.
Nope, they’d rather bitch over some small, insignificant perceived wrong in the Western world and let Little Ghulam here take the schlong up the ass at 11 years of age.
Well done, girls
What passes for ‘feminists’ today don’t discuss the problems women face in these cultures much. It doesn’t enhance their power.
Complete and utter nonsense.