Hey, you — you look really stupid with your jaw gaping open like that.
That was a little preemptive scorn to get you to prep yourself for this link: it’s a fellow complaining about women working as astronauts (and even commanders of the space shuttle!) inspiring little girls to emulate them and ending up throwing pampers and pepper (?) at each other. This part is really disturbing:
Whatever happened to young men looking for a good Christian wife and finding a young woman still clinging to her doll?
It’s about finding masculinity in infantilizing women. It’s the flip side of the posturing macho faux-masculinity of Kim du Toit (warning: that link will make real men, those who don’t think a strut and a gun defines male identity, gag).
The comments on the article are interesting, too. There are a lot of smart women chewing him to bits, but then…well, read it for yourself.
Its ok. Christ did command us to subjigate our will, and that is what is so hard for people to do in this day and age. It’s all about “ME” in this day and age. Christ taught us humility and charity. As Christians, we are not our own, we are bought with a price. Christ paid it. If God tells me to submit my will to my husband, who is also in Christ, who am I to defy God’s will?
(via John Lynch)
“There was even a time when a President of the United States threatened to punch a man in the face and kick him in the balls, because the man had the temerity to say bad things about the President’s daughter’s singing.
We’re not like that anymore.”
For shame!
Funny. One would almost think that organized religion was created as a means of justifying hierarchies in society and maintaining control over oppressed groups.
Doesn’t know his Kipling, does he?
fusilier
James 2:24
Why did I have to read it? Why!?
Funny. One would almost think that organized religion was created as a means of justifying hierarchies in society and maintaining control over oppressed groups.
Now that’s just crazy talk!
Blogging against the pussification of America = irony.
Now I’m depressed and it’s your fault.
The comic sans font is a nice touch. Really emphasizes out the playground thinking that underlies the comments.
He should have stuck to something more relevant, like who gets to decide how the toilet seat must be aligned after each use. Or how clean is clean enough.
Gah! that whole “As Christians, we are not our own” crap is just deeply disturbing. as far as i can tell the only relation with christ christians have is that of slave and master.
Seriously, what the heck is wrong with those people?
Old news. Besides, there are plenty of girls who cling to dolls out there. I was never one of them, so these arguments don’t mean anything to me. I was always the Dad when we kids played “house,” and nothing is going to change me.
Interestingly, I’ve always had male conservative friends. Despite their hankering for “a traditional woman,” and despite an apparently happy marriage, conservative men (at least the intellectuals, not the bo-dorks) seem hungry for a good, roll-up-your-sleeves debate with an outspoken liberal female, for some reason.
P.S. The biggest emasculation of men is, in my opinion, this sissified Christianity being forced down our throats – creationism, tee-totaling, crying in church, slaving at some meaningless job, the sedentary life (office/SUV/home/church) which resembles not at all the stance of Theodore Roosevelt, say. Frankly, it sickens me, too.
Ugh! Thanks, PZ, for having the good sense to see that those arguments which demean women must also demean men in the process. If we are infantilized or objectified, you are infantilized or animalized. Recognizing this is the only and perhaps only path to true gender equality.
I think I just threw up a little.
Sheesh, Kim du Toit made a few good points. I like it. And women shouldn’t be subjugated, like that sad christian dope.
It’s just a matter of finding the right balance, that’s all. And it sure as hell ain’t in the bible.
You know, most people are a little more careful about not letting their hang-ups hang out. Anyway, I’ll answer that: those men, unlike the author of that article, grew up. They stopped being sexually naive and inadequate, and so haven’t any reason to look for women who won’t notice that they’re naive and inadequate. Now they’re out having sex with the grown-ups.
It could also be that I’m reading too much into things here. It may just be that Wayne Johns has a small penis.
It’s just a matter of finding the right balance, that’s all.
Balance of what, exactly?
I used to have an equally skewed view of masculinity…in high school. It’s a shame people like Kim du Toit confuse being a boy with being a man. Read his essay and tally the number of times he equates manliness with intellectual pursuits (Hint: it’s zero).
Carlie @ # 15, “Balance of what, exactly?”
Doing manly things, but not going overboard about it. For instance, I’ve recently taken up cycle racing – despite being over sixty. Now admittedly, I just compete at the lowest level – short distance time trials. But it’s fairly manly – there’s about ten guys to every gal.
I used to get crticized by my wife for wanting to watch boxing on TV, to the point that I gave up trying. Now I’ve got my own room & TV so I can watch it, & enjoy it without being made to feel guilty.
But I’d draw the line at dog fights or cock fights. Or excessive tidiness – but I do try to keep the peace with the toilet seat thing.
I hope that answers your question.
Homework: Compare the subject and tone of Kim du Troit’s screed to the points outlined in this article by Umberto Eco.
Also, this quote:
captures the entire American right-wing mentality in a nice little package. They put forward an image of phallic entitlement and back it up with a culture of war as a phallic surrogate and rape as the real thing while, at the same time, painting a picture of the male’s place as the benign head of an inoffensive and wholesome family unit. They engage in hero worship and death worship, and violently advocate both sexual puritanism and promiscuity at the same time. Kim du Troit, like most neoconservative fascists, is a deranged psychopath.
Let’s hope this clown never becomes a youth pastor.
Those hypothetical two little girl never would have started fighting over an other issue.
Perhaps this fight would be acceptable if they were fighting for the affections of a fine christian boy.
As for Wayne Johns; “WAA! WAA! Women just don’t know their place! They should worship my manliness! WAA!
I really like this comment:
“Its ok. Christ did command us to subjigate our will, and that is what is so hard for people to do in this day and age. It’s all about “ME” in this day and age. Christ taught us humility and charity.”
So here’s how it works out:
A female who goes with “It’s all about ME”: not following Christ’s commandments, lacking humility and charity
A male who goes with “It’s all about ME”: obeying God’s commandments, humble, and charitable
Wow, isn’t that convenient. Men are allowed – nay, COMMANDED – to be “all about me,” and that is considered virtuous. As a guy, that sounds handy-dandy.
And I say, special props to the guy who was able to convince women that this was a good thing!
It reminds me of the episode of Friends where Phoebe is trying to get her boyfriend to have sex. Joey says, “Let me get this straight – you are begging him to have sex, with no strings attached and no committment, he doesn’t have to call you afterward, and he has you thinking this is a GOOD thing? The man is my hero!”
At least on the show, when it was pointed out she realized she had been manipulated. Do you think these religious women will ever catch to the game?
Wow, Eco nailed it. Kim du Troit is especially guilty of #3:
The irony is that Kim du Troit really believes that being a bully on a hair-trigger means that he is “in control of his emotions,” which he confuses with showing weakness. Anger is an emotion too, dumbass.
Wow, triviality, sexism, and victim blame. Pablo just hit the asshole trifecta.
Pablo, it is right in the bible. It is built into the religion. There is a quote that states the the man is the head of the marriage just as christ is the head of the church. (And no, I did not feel like digging out the quote.) There are those, like The Promise Keepers that try to explain this off by saying that means that the husband must keep the wife’s need in mind at all time. But I always took it to mean that a woman’s voice can and should be silenced at any time.
You may go to hell, I will go to Texas.
As a Texan, I could be tortured with mesquite thorns and fire ants for saying this, but Davy Crockett was a thug.
Guess what that “traditional masculine behavior” got for him at the Alamo.
*rolls eyes*
Calling Susan Faludi!
When he says “Christ did command us, etc.,” this is what I hear:
“I’m an ass. I want to dominate women. But hey, no worries, I can use the Bible to prop up and justify my misogyny. People won’t think I’m such an ass!”
The Bible is popular because it schools assholes in how to feel good about their nastiness.
What a fooktard.
The beauty of the Internet is that even people like Wayne Johns (aka Johns, Wayne) have a world-wide forum in which to express their view(s). I have to wonder, though – what’s the average daily hit-count on this Victoria Advocate site? A few dozen, maybe?
I liked the comment about inclusiveness, from the guy whose icon was anti-Political-Correctness. As if disagreeing with someone’s regressive viewpoint is hypocritically “exclusive” or “PC”. These people make my brain hurt.
File under: Unworthy of Notice.
Wow. That’s George W. Bush, in a nutshell.
Psst! Dustin and Janine! I think you may’ve misread Pablo up there. Pretty sure that’s irony…
To the quoted commenter:
If your husband is “also in Christ,” then at least wear a condom. I mean, there are a lot of people who are “in Christ.” The dude gets around. Who knows what you might catch?
Also, it’s “subjUgate.”
“Wow, triviality, sexism, and victim blame. Pablo just hit the asshole trifecta.”
Um, you realize it was all tongue-in-cheek, don’t you? Look at the last sentance: “At least on the show, she realized she was being manipulated.”
The point of my post was that these “religious” policies that require women to subject themselves are just men’s way of controlling them. Notice how I consider the fact that “Men who are all about ME” are virtuous to be “convenient.”
I didn’t think I needed to point out the blatent obviousness of the fact that it was men who wrote those biblical rules that Janine indicated.
In the end, my comment religious don’t seem to have caught on to the game was a lament more than anything else.
Ultimately, I guess I should have been more blunt like CalGeorge:
“When he says “Christ did command us, etc.,” this is what I hear:
“I’m an ass. I want to dominate women. But hey, no worries, I can use the Bible to prop up and justify my misogyny. People won’t think I’m such an ass!”
The Bible is popular because it schools assholes in how to feel good about their nastiness.”
The only thing I would add is that, if I hear a WOMAN say “I want to be dominated by men. It’s ok because the Bible says to,” I still hear the men saying “…and the best part about it all is that we have them convinced that us being assess is a GOOD thing!”
I was so annoyed by the link to Kim du Toit’s site that I wrote this:
http://jeffthefish.com/2007/11/12/a-real-man-poon/
Psst! Chuko! Did I at any point call Pablo a name or criticize him? All I did was amplify one of his points. There was no disagreement. Pay attention. But, hey, Pablo understands.
Who probably suffers from having a sexually ambiguous first name.
(Why doesn’t he hide it and call himself “K.” the way other Americans with short-sighted parents do? O. C. Marsh? E. D. Cope? L. Ron Hubbard?)
If it were just for him, he’d only deserved a Darwin Award. But no. The whole enterprise was completely useless for anything except creating a myth. It was entirely pointless. It was about dying a heroic death for the fun of it. It was the pinnacle of stupidity.
Lenin, too. Remember? First seize power, then start thinking what to do with it. That was his explicit advice when the October Revolution got started.
To be fair, that could have been a typo (look at your keyboard).
Who probably suffers from having a sexually ambiguous first name.
(Why doesn’t he hide it and call himself “K.” the way other Americans with short-sighted parents do? O. C. Marsh? E. D. Cope? L. Ron Hubbard?)
If it were just for him, he’d only deserved a Darwin Award. But no. The whole enterprise was completely useless for anything except creating a myth. It was entirely pointless. It was about dying a heroic death for the fun of it. It was the pinnacle of stupidity.
Lenin, too. Remember? First seize power, then start thinking what to do with it. That was his explicit advice when the October Revolution got started.
To be fair, that could have been a typo (look at your keyboard).
Kim du Toit : “microcephaly and micropenis”
Now what would Kim du Toit think about the headline “Behe gets reamed again”?
also- did anybody else read Climate Audit’s smugness about the tie w/ BA for best blog?
second also- you should be able to pass a test about basic science knowledge before being able to write a science blog, let alone vote for BEST science blog
kim du toit child photo
Like a fool, I followed the link to du Toit’s post.
YYYYAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
Right now, that is out of my system.
Kim does not seem to understand how his political heroes work.
Rummy was not direct in communicating what he was doing. He used words to obscure what he was up to. Oh so Manly.
Ashcroft, as destructive as he was, was not able to cross the line to allow dubya to wiretap as he pleases. Ultimately, he did not fit into the He-Man Manly Men’s Club.
And Condi is much more easy to use as an administration mouthpiece then Powell. Powell could no longer take the constant lying for dubya. And Powell is one of the main persons behind trying to cover up the My Lei Massacre.
And then there is this little gem.
It is those damned feminists fault that rape happens. If women were nice and submissive; rape would not be rape, it would be sex.
And damn, people never engaged in heavy drinking before Betty Friedan came around.
Is it alright if I call Kim du Toit both a pussy and a dick?
I just don’t know what to think of this. Of course, that guy must think that’s because I have tits and because I have tits I just don’t know how to use a brain, but that’s not what I meant. Please forgive my organs.
A good christian wife still clinging to her doll… Sorta creepy right there but I know he doesn’t mean like back in the days where a 30 years old man could marry a 12 years old girl… Or does he? I think the thought of an adult woman still clinging to dolls is nauseating if you ask me. Wanting to keep your future wives ignorant is just… wrong. Wanting to get married is wrong too but that could be just me.
I mean, COME ON, picture the bed time. That won’t be interesting because in all her ignorance she won’t know what you’re trying to do. Please um, tell me why the idea of having a doofus that follows your every orders as a baby manufacturer is so arrousing? Don’t you want to marry someone educated? Someone that you can talk with about politics? About economics? Current news? About your neighbor’s hot as- wait maybe not that, she might kill you. It’s a bit risky right there.
By his idea a christian wife is a woman that has no interest or knowledge in politics, in economics, in science, heck, in ANYTHING but popping babies out of her vagina. THAT sounds to me like a pretty boring relationship.
Still getting over the doll thing. If he moves into my area, I’d like to be informed.
Of course it’d be boring, Michelle. I think it’s why a lot of Good Christian Marriages end up in Bad Christian Divorces!
Full down. It’s gender neutral. No matter who you are, you’ll have to lift to use the pot. Plus I can’t stand to see inside the toilet unless I’m going to the bathroom. Cleaning the toilet is man’s work because, frankly, sometimes there’s a miss… Plus, I’m also, frankly, cleaner and neater than the women/girls in my house.
I also do the cooking because my wife couldn’t cook her way out of a paper-bag. And, I’ve also been a better cook than every woman I’ve lived with in my entire life: Mother, two grandmothers, wife, daughters, girlfriends…
Michelle Rochon: Perhaps he has simply confused the vagina with a clown car?
I’m thinking he’s best compared to an infected prostate — the kind that’s so badly diseased that the digital exam causes it to rupture.
Well, at least these people have stopped demanding they have marry virgins, rather they just want women who have seen a small enough number of penises as to be unable to spot a statistical outlier when they see one.
Re: #37
Sure. It’s another way of suggesting that he can go fuck himself.
— CV
WTF? Why even dredge up shit like this and post a link to it?! Oh well. Thanks Dutstin, for the Umberto Eco link; it provided some critical balance.
Gee, I must be one of those 10% who wouldn’t touch Rumsfield with a 10 foot pole if he was the last man on earth. Better the species die out than perpetuate that infantile ego.
Truer words were never spoken.
I find it sad that so many think the two are mutually exclusive.
Kim du Troit’s man-crush on Rumsfeld and his unique way of expressing it are forever burned into my brain. Anyway, I don’t understand the star-eyed worship-from-afar. Rumsfeld is a Republican, after all. If du Troit wants to hit that, he just needs to catch Rumsfeld in an airport bathroom and dance!
But stick to the domestic terminals: Poor Rummy will have increasingly little use for international travel as war crimes arrest warrants proliferate.
Kim du Toit made a few good points.
Sorry to hear you think so.
I used to get crticized by my wife for wanting to watch boxing on TV, to the point that I gave up trying. Now I’ve got my own room & TV so I can watch it, & enjoy it without being made to feel guilty.
This is what you call “manly”?
How can we have a talk about manly men without pulling out the Martin Mull song. With pleasure, I present ‘Men’.
And an other thing, du Toit pulls out his list of manly men actors, one being Robert Mitchum. Funny. He starred in one of mine all time favorite movies,’The Night Of The Hunter’. One of the things that struck me about the movie was how Charles Laughton lit Mitchum not just to show off his dimples but also to show just how pretty Mitchum was.
I don’t need no make up
I got real scars
I’ve got hair on my chest
I look good with my shirt on
Kim du Troit’s man-crush on Rumsfeld and his unique way of expressing it are forever burned into my brain.
Even worse is Mrs. du Toit’s idiotic defense:
Uh, so the Europeans fear us because Rumsfeld wants respect and love from his wife? And what was that bit about, if we don’t become Rumsfeld, men will become a footnote in history? How does that work, exactly?
Okay, P.Z. Thanks for starting out my day by squeezing two foul, reeking conservaturds into my lap all at once. My blood pressure is fine, really.
The first one is almost ignorable, even if disgusting- an insecure sexless loser, probably impotent with real women, looking for a mentally and socially retarded female to rule over and defile-that’s just standard christian porn, don’tcha know?
The second link is just as sick, but dangerous to everyone, not just young naive females. I always love it when I see a blog or magazine that has the words “conservative” and “intellectual” in the same sentence. It is a universal disclaimer that involves making lame excuses for horrible behavior, while still managing to be hypocritical enough to complain about other people’s NON-horrible behavior. Kim’s essay is no surprise there, as it basically boils down to “Kim du Toit’s penis is so limp and tiny he has to hold a gun and fantasize about murdering people to get off. And if you don’t do the same, you’re not a REAL MAN!”
Wow, Kim. I am so amazingly underwhelmed by your manly manliness!
I like to keep an optimistic attitude about things. I can see that the world is in many ways slowly getting to be a friendlier place in which to live. Technology makes lives easier, and the need for struggle goes down. Communication grows, and we can see ourselves in others just a little more than before.
And then some immature, hateful, ignorant, dickless douchebag like Kim du Toit comes along and spews his his empty, envious hatred on pretty much everyone who has actually tried to make life better WITHOUT murdering people to do it. It sobers my mind to think about how many do still approve of his sentiments. Many americans still love their ignorance and violence more than anything else, and shit like Kim’s gets sucked up and spewed out daily by people who want more out of life, but are too scared, stupid, or lazy to go for it. They must recieve their thrills vicariously, and what better way than soldier-worship? I see it almost every time our little exercise in empire building is brought up in conversation-the main defenders are almost without exception small-minded people who have accomplished little in life, whose knowledge of the world barely reaches out to the ends of their lawns. And somehow, the fact that their country’s soldiers are in a foreign land where they have no business being, killing people who are no threat to us, actually makes them feel BETTER about their own shitty lives. The hero-worship kicks in, and people think we are somehow morally superior heroes for being better murderers.
Pah. Kim du Toit, you will not rain on my parade. Feel free to take your dickless, cowardly, shit-for-brains (oh, sorry-conservative!) philosophy, load it into one of your penis replacements (oh, I mean guns) and fire it straight up your worthless ass. I know it hurts you to realize how irrelevant your kind is becoming, but don’t worry. You still have options. You could decide to grow the fuck up and join the human race! Or if as I suspect you are simply not mentally or morally capable of changing your shitty self, you can do what the rest of you soldier-worshipping, violence loving, fearful little limp-dicks do best-die soon and be forgotten!
#33-
The whole enterprise was completely useless for anything except creating a myth. It was entirely pointless. It was about dying a heroic death for the fun of it. It was the pinnacle of stupidity.
Well, yes, of course. But it was Crockett’s line that Kim du Twit quoted, in PZ’s link.
Some of the Alamo defenders (e.g. Crockett and Bonham) were not Texians or Tejanos by birth, marriage, residence, land ownership, or even preference for Dr. Pepper, and seemed rather to have wandered to Texas spoiling for a fight.
Thugs, in a word.
He didn’t specify which doll…
truth machine, & the rest of you.
After the character assassination of James Watson here, I’m not surprised by the responses to this post – it looks like the lot of you are pussy whipped.
Every thing in du Toit’s post seems to get taken to extremes or out of context – no – more that you folks have added context to support your own agendas.
And I know I’m gonna get flak for this, so I’d better get this in now. I don’t believe that all races are equal. But I don’t believe that my race is necessarily the best. I don’t believe that the sexes are equal either. And I don’t believe that my sex is necessarily the best. I never have, and never would, knowingly treat another person of different race or sex in a manner that would disadvantage them. So don’t call me racist or sexist.
cycle racing … it’s fairly manly – there’s about ten guys to every gal.
Most chess players are men too — does that make it “fairly manly”?
I wonder if Kim du Toit would be concerned about being defended by some logic-challenged pussywhip who has to hide in his room to watch what he wants on TV.
Uh… how is that pronounced, exactly?
I don’t believe that all races are equal.
Oh my, Richard Harris is pussywhipped and racist — what a surprise.
Here’s your typical manly bicycle racer:
Oh, but Richard probably means road racing — you know, the sport that requires a minimum of upper body weight to excel.
Yes of course you’re not racist or sexist. Women can cook whatever they want for dinner every night and I’ll watch black people playing football any day. If that’s not empowerment, I don’t know what is. Anyone who disagrees with me is pussy whipped/a fag blah, blah, [insert absurdly gay sounding phallic imagery here] Donald Rumsfeld and George Bush.
P.S.
Reduce the number of your testicles and you can reach the highest of heights.
Disgusting. I want a partner, not a doormat.
I was going to ask.
I was maybe going to ask.
Something tells me he didsn’t want to marry someone more intelligent than he is, and that he thought (and maybe still thinks) thinks the risk of that happening was very large.
(Still wondering about a man called Kim. For crying out loud, Kim Basinger!
Hm. America.)
I was going to ask.
I was maybe going to ask.
Something tells me he didsn’t want to marry someone more intelligent than he is, and that he thought (and maybe still thinks) thinks the risk of that happening was very large.
(Still wondering about a man called Kim. For crying out loud, Kim Basinger!
Hm. America.)
“Disgusting. I want a partner, not a doormat.”
“I don’t want to be your better half
I believe that one and one makes TWO” – Alanis Morrisette
Richard Harris, please explain how they are not equal. Then we will be able to judge whether you are a racist sexist pig.
Toit ? À la française, quoi.
Toit ? À la française, quoi.
Kim du Troit states that “Now, every time I see that TV ad, I have to be restrained from shooting the TV with a .45 Colt.” Obviously he’s never owned, shot, or studied firearms in his life. We call them a “Colt 45”. Just like we say a “three fifty seven” instead of a “three hundred and fifty seven”. Just sayin.
I went to sniper school and taught on the rifle range in the Marines. The WORST people I had to deal with were the macho “good old boys” like kim seems to be, that came through. Couldn’t hit anything further away than 100 yards (all Marines train at up to 500 yds with steel sight), and were often so sure of themselves and what they were doing that they couldn’t be taught. To stupid to figure out how to focus on the front sight tip and pay attention to breathing and heart beat to learn how to shoot.
Probalby best in the casee of Kim. He won’t be as big a problem when he completely looses it.
“dew twa”
du Toit is a French (sometimes Swiss) name. If I were to guess, I’d say he’s probably descended of Huguenots (French Calvinists) who fled to the United States, among other places, while fleeing religious persecution. The name Kim could have been inspired by Kipling’s novel titled “Kim.” It is a name like Ashliegh – unisex, primarily female – but it’s also found on some males.
I wonder what kind of life Kim had growing up to get all this hate. I know when I was young, the French and Italian boys were routinely despised/bullies by most of the white, European descended males of my HS (primarily German, English, Scottish and Irish descent). Plus with a name like Kim, he just HAD to be teased. Unmercifully.
Another strike would be being raised in a (assumed) Calvinist/fundamentalist home. Those harsh doctrines of predestination and humans being utterly corrupt and worthless… The hang-ups of sex… The over-powering religiosity… Blech…
Lastly, in his blog you can get the idea his dad was a closed, taciturn book. And, whether he really admits it or not, there are some serious daddy issues going on there.
Honestly, I feel sorry for him. He’s so over-compensating it’s not even funny. Okay. It is funny. But only in a caricature of ‘what it means to be a man funny.’ Not funny to be in his head, funny.
I wonder what kind of life Kim had growing up to get all this hate.
Perhaps he was nagged at about watching boxing on TV, like poor henpecked Richard Harris.
P.S. Anyone remember Bobby Riggs? Tennis — now there’s a manly sport.
Some bicycle racers who can kick Richard Harris’s ass: http://www.pbase.com/sdukes/image/16860239
Richard Harris: You seem to have confused the words “same” and “equal”.
Meanwhile, to strike a low blow, if we add an “e” to Toit, then how will it sound?
Richard Harris, better be careful or I will pull MacArthur Park on you again.
As for pulling things out of context, if one thinks that I or anyone else have done so, it is easy enough to go back to what du Toit wrote. If you thing anyone has been unfair, point out where.
Bobby Riggs? The one who got his ass kicked by Billy Jean King.
I remember that.
Toit ? À la française, quoi.
Might it not rhyme with squat? À l’américaine?
You seem to have confused the words “same” and “equal”.
Actually, he seems to have confused a sociological category with a biological one.
I’m still trying to figure out how someone who cowers in his room to avoid his wife’s withering criticisms manages to call the rest of us “pussy whipped”.
Sorry, but that was a lol moment…
Honestly, I have no idea why people thing watching boxing, or football, is manly. To me it’s no more manly than doing any other coach-potato activity, like watching the Cooking Network.
I figure if you’re going to brag ‘manly activity,’ you should talk about how you do manly things… Like pay your child support. Listen to your wife. Swallow your pride and ask for directions. Or take your kids to the mall or cook them dinner because your wife is busy with collecting data for a big science conference. Other manly things include helping your kids with homework, getting them to ramp-down the drama (really, your hamster dying is not the end of the world…) and making sure they get both positive and negative feedback for the things they do in life. I consider those manly.
And they’re much harder than, let’s say, when I was young and single and used to fight kumite. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0LeALHpjsQ Or motocross racing. Or fly fishing. Or deer and duck hunting. Or black-powder shooting. Or any of the other ‘manly’ things I used to do for “boy camouflage.”
Kim du Toit.
Doesn’t that anglicize into Kim of Twat?
What kind of a name is that?
This is all a joke, right?
Bobby Riggs? The one who got his ass kicked by Billy Jean King.
But first he demolished Margaret Court, 30 years old and the top woman tennis player in the world and him a 55 year old has-been. Riggs was a great tennis player and perhaps an even greater hustler. But the most “manly” thing about him is the prostate cancer that killed him.
Doesn’t that anglicize into Kim of Twat?
Kim of the Twat.
BTW, I was never as good as the guy in the video. I fought in some larger Northern California tournaments, but that level of tournament is bush-league to the tournaments he fights in. Compared to that guy, we were all green-belts. Good, but not absolutely stone-incredible like him. We’d have all been playing the role of “spear carrier to be killed by hero” in any competition we had with him.
Riggs was most definitely a hustler.
I was amazed to find out that he was such a great player. I only remember him from the battle of the sexes stunt.
I guess it worked.
I paraphrase Ghandi: I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians.
Please don’t go “right winger” on us. :) And it’s “dew twa” as the final ‘t’ is silent. And the name, basically, means “roof,” though you can get airy fairy and say “from a high place” or some such crap if you want to put on airs.
Gandhi. And that’s a quote, not a paraphrase.
Gah. Give me a pepper-and-pampers throwing shuttle commander for a partner anyday. I like smart women with a bit of fire in their belly. My partner certainly has a bit of fire. What would be the joy in sharing your life with some poor subjugated creature?
I sure as hell don’t want my daughter growing up that way. She’s smart, she knows what she wants, and she should be able to say so.
My ego isn’t so pathetic that I can’t cope with having a relationship with someone who isn’t compliant. Okay, a little give-and-take now and then doesn’t hurt, but that’s true of any persongetting on with any person.
“from a high place”
He certainly is.
I was riffing on “pussification” in his post title.
> If God tells me to submit my will to my husband (…)
> who am I to defy God’s will?
You know, this “religion” thing is sounding better and better. Where do I sign?
A similar viewpoint:
You mean God’s a man?
Josh #64 – Yes, agree completely.
Dahan #69 – Why am I not surprised? (Hypothesis: It’s good old boys like this who, in combat, will no doubt burn up all their ammunition on automatic/burst because they can’t shoot straight, and wind up dead at the hands of wimps and nerds who shut the fuck up and listened to their instructors.)
And:
Its ok. Christ did command us to subjigate our will, and that is what is so hard for people to do in this day and age. It’s all about “ME” in this day and age. Christ taught us humility and charity. As Christians, we are not our own, we are bought with a price. Christ paid it. If God tells me to submit my will to my husband, who is also in Christ, who am I to defy God’s will?
The person who taught her – who teaches any human female – to think like this? May they burn to death.
Mr Shrek is an Akido Master which I guess is pretty up there on the manly scale but he still happily plays dollhouses with his daughters and changes the baby’s nappy amongst many other daily domestic chores. Mr Shrek loves his wife for who I am and the personality I have and wouldn’t dream of considering me inferior. Mr Shrek is a REAL man.
Confounded pampers and pepper throwin! I wanna see some b*tch-slappin, hair-pullin action!
If wimmins libbers means we git to see more wimmin fightin, I’m all fer it. REAL wimmin doin real fightin- now that’s what I call hawt.
“Why shouldn’t I just have a complete brainectomy? After all, my husband only needs a hole, and babies only need a uterus and breasts. I should just be an attachment my husband screws on the bed to get the housework done.”
Oops, I just had an episode of projectile vomiting.
@33 Othneil Charles Marsh isn’t really an ambiguous name, and neither is Edward Drinker Cope.
Anyway I think that the “good Christian wife” guy needs to grow up and realise that the days of picking up a wife who has no desire or drive beyond the whims of the nearest male have gone forever, if they ever truly existed, and none of us miss them.
As to the other guy, although I agree that men no longer behave like gentlemen (where’s the harm in opening a door or being polite?), I think the idea that men should all spend their time thinking about women, guns and power tools is a bit dumb. I’ll admit that I get protective towards women, and also perform the odd act of chest beating, however calling for this to be the way that men should react to all occurences seems gross over-simplification.
Anyway, that’s my tuppence
Hell, yeah, Moses!
(Oh, except for the asking directions part … )
If you react to domestic disagreements by dominating your wife and children, it’s because you are a lazy coward.
If you are threatened by a strong woman, it’s because you are weak.
If you quiver at the idea of men being “pussified,” it’s because you’re not strong enough to live in a world where men actually have to take responsibility for their actions.
It’s clear who the pussy is.
Yes, yes, I know how to pronounce “Toit”, I was just making a stupid joke. :-p
Bravo’s go to:
notthedroids #5
H.Humbert #16
Sad, sad, confirmation goes to:
Warren #19, he sounds EXACTLY like a youth pastor I know.
An asnwer goes to Michelle:
Don’t you want to marry someone educated? Someone that you can talk with about politics? About economics? Current news?
-YES!
As for someone who openly presents his pigishness by ending his piece with “oink, oink, oink”, I’m simply left wondering if we really are living in the same reality.
Just one more justification for being an ATHEIST, and for the record I prefer a women who is intellegent, not one who cooks cleans and drops babies.
I can actually almost excuse the first link guy (remembering names or sites is way too much positive feedback) as his may simply be a short rant penned during a period of particular perfidity.
The dickless (POLICE CHIEF:Is this true? VENKMAN:Yes sir, this man has no dick.) and pointless ranting of le femme du toit, however, are too thought out to be anything other than a true sample of this douchebag’s mentality. I know many people who are very far to the right of my personal politics, and never have any of them said anything as brainless as this shitwad. I am so in favor of intelligent discussion that I do occasionally begin it with those not up to the task, but seldom do I find this level of idiocy in the general public, and I live in the South.
On another note, I think it would be much better for the American economy if we simply payed for potential Hummer buyers to simply have penis enlargement surgery. And if possible, buy them a prepackaged personality not donated by the local fraternity.
All this talk of Rumsfeld reminds me of George Carlin’s characterization of warfare a as a dick-waving contest, even down to the sexual language used.
“What went wrong in Vietnam — We PULLED OUT!”
“This time we’re going GO ALL THE WAY.”
@ #70 Moses, take it from me, this guy is so white male stereotype Afrikaans it’s scary. Thank god he’s over there and not here anymore. By the way, I know it’s French, but he will/would have pronounced it ‘doe toy’
Wow. The first link just made me sad. The second one made me fucking angry. Why? This little gem here, for instance:
“You know why rape is such a problem on college campuses? Why binge drinking is a problem among college freshmen?
It’s a reaction: a reaction against being pussified.”
Seriously, WTF??? Now it’s our fault that we get raped? But, oh, wait. In the eyes of people like Kim, it was always our fault. For wearing short dresses, smiling at somebody, or not giving the oh so grand male the sex he deserves. Because that’s what women are for, pandering to a man’s every whim.
Excuse me while I go bang my head against the nearest wall in frustration. People like him don’t need blogs, they need therapy.
As for his idea that the “pussification” of the glorious man started in the 20th century, well, he’s right. The 20th century gave us women the means to control our reproductive systems and have a say in just how many children we wanted. Without having to be abstinent. Also, it gave us WWII, in which we learned that hey, we don’t need men around to keep our countries running (or, in the case of my grandmother, rebuild it). In short, we finally saw through the smoke and mirrors that had blinded us all too long, those parlor tricks that told us that without a man, we were nothing, and could achive nothing.
…oh, and wasn’t it the Japanese who bombed Pearl Harbor? But then, edjuhmacation’s not manly. A real guy doesn’t need brains, apparently. He only needs a pair of big guns, which usually end any discussion. Rah, rah, what a winner Kim is.
CalGeorge (& others), “Richard Harris, please explain how they are not equal. Then we will be able to judge whether you are a racist sexist pig.”
Simple – different genes & expression of genes, averaged across populations. Who cares? People who have to set social policies may care. But we should all treat every human being as potentially equal in terms of the opportunities available to them. We shouldn’t make minorities feel excluded, etc. As for ‘equal’ & ‘same’, I agree, people can be different, but should be equal before the law, etc.
But I don’t want to say too much on this, because it’ll be taken out of context, as always happens in such forums. For instance, when I said that cycle racing is manly, I also pointed out there’s about ten guys for every gal taking part. Look at the dumb-ass comments that provoked! Hey, it’s manly because it mostly appeals to men, stupid. That’s what makes it manly. Nevertheless, some of the girls and women who take part are very feminine. I knew one top rider who was also a Miss England finalist, and a very nice young woman as well. But it mostly appeals to men.
As for what I’ve done combating discrimination, I admit it’s been very little. Just things like providing the contacts so that a young female engineering graduate could get started working as an engineer-in-training, & helping her out occasionally with a ‘phone call, rather than dropping her in it, when her designs needed correcting – I was in a statutory duty role where I had to approve engineering designs. I’ve tried to bring up my kids so that they aren’t prejudiced, but they take their values from society anyway, so I don’t think I made much difference. And, yes, I changed their soiled diapers. But I draw the line at doing that for the grandchildren.
I tried to read Iris Murdock’s “The Sea, the Sea”. After a while, I thought that the main character was homosexual, but then the author made it explicit that he was straight. I abandoned the book, because her grasp of masculinity was at odds with mine. So it appears to be with many of you, too.
For a site that attracts a high percentage of atheists, I’m amazed at the numbers here who’ve been infected by the culturally normative belief that pop/rock is, in any sense, good, that is to say, that it is music, rather than noise. It seems to me to be analagous with the situation regarding religion, which most of us here do recognize as crap.
Maybe it’s the cultural norms within academia that allowed Iris Murdick to see maleness the way that she did, and maybe that also explains a lot of what I see here. If that is so, then you’ll be as blind to it as the religiots are to their nonsense. Oh yes, & as deaf as most of the population is to the hideous noise that they’ve been persuaded to think is music.
Jeez, I’m pissing in the wind.
A guy named “Kim” berating society about the decline of traditional masculinity.
Now I’ve seen everything…
(More later, maybe).
Ah, yes. Because the only reason someone would object to an attempt to define “manliness” as “acting like a thirteen-year-old with an inferiority complex and a gun fetish” or the systematic belittlement of civilization and women is because they’re afraid they’ll stop getting laid if they don’t.
Project much?
Evidence, plzthx.
“If that is so, then you’ll be as blind to it as the religiots are to their nonsense. Oh yes, & as deaf as most of the population is to the hideous noise that they’ve been persuaded to think is music.
Jeez, I’m pissing in the wind.”
You certainly are, for all of those gratuituous slurs against rock music. For one thing, it’s irrelevant to the topic at hand and does not function as a metaphor, for another, it’s rather offensive to those people, such as myself, who happen to like rock music and not, as the case might be, jazz.
For the record, I hate jazz.
Hey, it’s manly because it mostly appeals to men, stupid. That’s what makes it manly.
You’re calling US stupid? As I said, that would make chessplaying “manly”, MORON. It would also make being a male chauvinist “manly”, CRETIN. Can you say “ad hoc”, IDIOT?
For a site that attracts a high percentage of atheists, I’m amazed at the numbers here who’ve been infected by the culturally normative belief that pop/rock is, in any sense, good, that is to say, that it is music, rather than noise.
Um, our subjective musical preferences are “beliefs”? Sorry, but calling you an idiot is way too complimentary.
Jeez, I’m pissing in the wind.
Yes indeed, your moronic spew is covering you head to foot.
it’s rather offensive
It’s of a piece with those religious cretins who claim that their personal moral assertions are “objective”. Richard Harris doesn’t like pop/rock (as if that were a single thing) so it must be “noise” and liking it is a matter of holding a false belief. With such deranged thought processes, it’s no wonder that he makes so many other stupid claims — he seems to actually think boxing is a sport, heh heh.
I tried to read Iris Murdock’s “The Sea, the Sea”. After a while, I thought that the main character was homosexual, but then the author made it explicit that he was straight. I abandoned the book, because her grasp of masculinity was at odds with mine. So it appears to be with many of you, too.
Hey, moron, according to you something is “manly” if it is dominated by men — that would make male homosexuality “manly”.
It’s been pointed out on other fora that it’s a South African name and its last syllable is pronounced like “toy.”
Time for a comic to explain everything.
But I’d draw the line at dog fights or cock fights.
What’s wtong with cock fighting?
Oh, wait, you were talking about birds, nevermind.
In English, the male name “Kim” is short for Kimbel/Kimbal/etc. One of my old neighbours was named Kimbel, which is why it doesn’t sound so odd to me.
Hey, it’s manly because it mostly appeals to men, stupid.
Which leaves us in the logical postiion that if something appeals to both men and women, it is still “manly”. Way to eliminate half the species in one logical swoop.
Of course, it also means that farting, grilled cheese sandwiches and being a couch potato are “manly”.
Nevertheless, some of the girls and women who take part are very feminine. I knew one top rider who was also a Miss England finalist, and a very nice young woman as well.
That’s a fairly fucked up definition of “feminine”.
truth machine, “Hey, moron, according to you something is “manly” if it is dominated by men — that would make male homosexuality “manly”.”
Well, it sure ain’t womanly! On your definition, prostate disease is manly! Come on, most of us realize that word definitions are oftentimes flexible; that they have different meanings in different contexts.
That’s the problem with forums such as this. Some people put an alternative sense to text. This then distorts the author’s meanings. There seems to’ve been plenty of that going on in this thread.
“…those gratuituous slurs against rock music. For one thing, it’s irrelevant to the topic at hand and does not function as a metaphor, for another, it’s rather offensive to those people, such as myself, who happen to like rock music and not, as the case might be, jazz.” It is relevant. I was referring to the way that people’s behaviour is often controlled by subconscious operants, such as following the crowd.
Honestly, I have no idea why people thing watching boxing, or football, is manly. To me it’s no more manly than doing any other coach-potato activity, like watching the Cooking Network.
Guess which one gets the nagging though. When a man sits down to watch some TV, they are lazy. When a woman does it, it’s because they need a break.
Graculus nicely illustrates my point about taking things out of context: “…some of the girls and women who take part are very feminine. I knew one top rider who was also a Miss England finalist, and a very nice young woman as well.
That’s a fairly fucked up definition of “feminine”.”
Jesus wept!
Bugger, he’s got me quoting the bible now.
“It’s clear who the pussy is.”
Tell me. Is it really a good idea to use a misogynistic, sexist slur when attempting to claim the other guy is the misogynist and sexist?
“Guess which one gets the nagging though. When a man sits down to watch some TV, they are lazy. When a woman does it, it’s because they need a break.”
Ah, male entitlement. Apparently being a couch potato requires a desperate reach for justification via sexist sterotypes.
Ah, male entitlement. Apparently being a couch potato requires a desperate reach for justification via sexist sterotypes.
It’s not a stereotype. I have years of personal experience that I’m going by.
And trust me, the stereotypical image of the “slob of an husband” is something I have to battle weekly because it is being pushed in every possible media. No matter what amount of work I do, if I decide to sit down when I’m not given approval to do so, I’m described as lazy.
And seemingly complaining about this situation is enough to call me sexist. Fuck you and the horse you rode on!
(#59)
Toit
Uh… how is that pronounced, exactly?
Posted by: Kseniya | November 12, 2007 5:10 PM
sprays keyboard with coffee
thanks k that cheered me up considerably after reading some of du Toit’s stuff
Richard: Hey, it’s manly because it mostly appeals to men, stupid. That’s what makes it manly. Nevertheless, some of the girls and women who take part are very feminine. I knew one top rider who was also a Miss England finalist, and a very nice young woman as well. But it mostly appeals to men.
Why do you think it appeals more to men (if it in fact does)?
Well, it sure ain’t womanly!
So you are saying that male homosexuality is manly?
The problem is that you’re too stupid to understand that this whole concept of “manliness” is idiotic.
Guess which one gets the nagging though. When a man sits down to watch some TV, they are lazy. When a woman does it, it’s because they need a break.
Poor baby. Yeah, women have all the advantages.
CalGeorge, you ask, “Why do you think it appeals more to men (if it in fact does)?”
This can be answered on different levels.
It could be cultural.
It could be in the genes, or their expression, because it’s competetive.
It could be because it’s got some of the attributes of hunting.
It could be that males prefer to get out into the countryside more. (I recently heard about some research that suggests women prefer cities, men the countryside.)
It could be because there’s loads of scope for playing with boy’s toys.
It could provide an opportunity for male bonding.
It could be the buzz from doing something risky. (40 mph on a bike on narrow lanes, with animals sometimes making a dash for it out of the hedgerow as you go past, to say nothing of idiots driving cars without paying attention or being aware of spatial/temporal relationships to the cyclist, makes it a little bit risky, although the risks can be minimized).
And so on.
I used to be involved in the sport forty years ago, & in two countries. The percentage of females participating is pretty constant, so it obviously does appeal more to men.
Hey gals. Cyclists are usually pretty darn decent people. Cycling helps you lose weight. It’s a good way to meet guys. It’s fun. Get out on your bike to develop some basic fitness, & then contact your local club. They’ll love to have you join, & you’ll be looked after until you get confidence & fitness. From then on, you’ll be one of the riders. You don’t have to race; there are club runs for ‘social’ cycling. There’s no sexism in my club, anyway.
No matter what amount of work I do, if I decide to sit down when I’m not given approval to do so, I’m described as lazy.
Funny how the sexists turn out to be henpecked.
Harris starts out by saying that he races bicycles to get more “manliness” into his “balance”, then ends up encouraging more women to take up cycling. The idiot can’t even keep track of his own argument. And we still don’t know what “good points” Kim du Toit made.
Funny how the sexists turn out to be henpecked.
Please show where I have expressed sexism.
truth machine, are you a Creationist? It sure is like arguing with a Creationist. You’re bringing your preconceptions to this, & like them, you can’t let them go.
I’d like to see more people take up cycling, & that’s happening here in the UK. If that includes more women, good for them. Cycling is good for people of either sex. And it doesn’t bugger your joints like running.
You also ask, “And we still don’t know what “good points” Kim du Toit made.” Hey, don’t be lazy, read it yourself.
It’s ok, truth machine, because Richard Harris only wants women to get into cycling so they can lose weight and meet men. It’s quite funny, the way the more he says the more sexist he reveals himself to be.
‘kay now I’m getting confused.
Chest hair.
Is it still ok to refer to that as manly?
Also, testicles; same question.
Carlie, how did you read that into what I wrote? (That question was rhetorical. I know how.) Groannnnnn.
There must be quite a few women who’d like to lose weight & meet guys. How does that make me sexist? You’ve added the belief that I only want women to get into cycling so they can lose weight and meet men.
Can we say “overcompensation”, anyone?
The guy’s name is Kim, and that’s perfectly all right. He didn’t have to become a right-wing douchebag about it.
Hell, I’m a guy, and I’m named Robin. Didn’t scar me any. No matter what one’s name is, people will find a way to make fun of it. Part of life.
But this guy actually deserves it.
What a rectum!
“And seemingly complaining about this situation is enough to call me sexist. Fuck you and the horse you rode on!”
No, I’m calling you a sexist for the use of the tried old “nagging” stereotype and the not-to-subtle implication that it’s actually women who are lazy.
Read, then type. And spare me the hysterical, desperate cliches.
I hate this kind of shit. My born-again ex-roommate used to spout this crap all the time, blaming liberalism and feminism for the fact that he was an impotent little laughingstock whom everybody assumed was going to step out of the closet any day now.
He’d give me ‘masculinity’ tips, tell me how to pick up women (of course, he was only interested in the banal, superficial clubbing types), and stuff himself full of whey powder before hittin’ the gym. The irony was that we both knew I could snap his twiggy little arms at any time should I have wanted to.
My suspicions that his born-againism came out of a deep distrust and fear of women and a desire to subjugate them were confirmed when he admitted he had date-raped a girl a few years’ back. (Of course, any reparations for this act were made to God through prayer; rather than real reparations to the woman he injured or penance through the legal system.) Our acquaintanceship officially ended at that point.
What bothers me most about this kind of crap is the spineless hypocracy it entails. Why would a ‘Real Man’ complain about the feminisation of other men? Why should he care? It only makes sense if he wants the subjugation of women to occur by society and other ‘Real Men’ so he can reap the benefits of his place in the hierarchy without having to earn it. In other words, “I’m not tough, therefore I want tougher men to keep all women in check so none of them will ever be able to question how tough I really am.” Typical pansy bully mentality.
Real men don’t give a flying fuck what other ‘Real Men’ think about Tim Allen and Home Improvement, or whether they’re wearing metrosexual sweaters to hide their gynecomastia.
Fuck you Kim, you fucking whiny little fuckwit. I’ll kick you in the fucking balls any time you want, tough guy.
Moses @70:
If I were to guess, I’d say he’s probably descended of Huguenots (French Calvinists) who fled to the United States, among other places, while fleeing religious persecution
Right starting point, wrong goal. IIANM Du Toit immigrated to the USA from South Africa. (Doubtless during the apartheid era, because he couldn’t stand living under such a system….)
The larger of the two mains groups of white S.Africans is the Afrikaners. They speak Afrikaans, a language evolved from Dutch, and are for the most part descendants of early Dutch settlers. However, a significant minority of Afrikaners descend from Huguenots who came to the Cape and gradually assimilated into the larger, Dutch-derived group. I don’t know how du Toit (or at least, his namesakes in S.Africa) pronounce the name, but I know of some Huguenot-descended Afrikaners — e.g., Eugene Marais and Charlize Theron — whose families defrenchified the way they said their surnames. If the S.African du Toits did the same, then he probably says something like du Toyt rather than du Twa. (Interestingly, other families kept the French pronunciation, but modified the spelling so the name looked like what a Dutch-speaker would pronounce that way.)
The more important question is, why do we care how the jackanapes says his name?
No, I’m calling you a sexist for the use of the tried old “nagging” stereotype and the not-to-subtle implication that it’s actually women who are lazy.
Yes, because fuck my experience. It means nothing. Whenever I’m being described as being lazy it must be true. And just because this is the same experience I’ve heard from every single married man I’ve ever met, well, it must be true as well. We men MUST be lazy. WE are the inferior sex.
As to me implying that women are lazy????? What blog are you reading? I said that while women’s leisure is understood and accepted, men’s leisure is NOT.
Read, then type. And spare me the hysterical, desperate cliches.
Right back at you.
And as an FYI, since you don’t know jack about me, I think Kim is an ass, but your posts aren’t doing a lot to keep hard working family guys, who get nagged at for no reason, from having sympathy for him.
“Yes, because fuck my experience. It means nothing.”
Your experience does not make a universal truth.
“Whenever I’m being described as being lazy it must be true.”
Where did I say that? Oh right, nowhere. But please, don’t let that stop your “pity me” party.
“And just because this is the same experience I’ve heard from every single married man I’ve ever met, well, it must be true as well. We men MUST be lazy. WE are the inferior sex.”
You and your buddies don’t make a universal truth. Additionally, this whining response didn’t address what I posted.
We are not the inferior sex. Neither are they. There isn’t an inferior sex.
“I said that while women’s leisure is understood and accepted, men’s leisure is NOT”
That’s not what your first post implied, as I pointed out. If this is what you meant, fine. You need to accept that given the medium subtext doesn’t come across and stop getting so hysterical about criticism.
“Right back at you.”
A lame response given you’re the one relying on insults, stereotypes, cliches and self-pity.
” but your posts aren’t doing a lot to keep hard working family guys, who get nagged at for no reason, from having sympathy for him.”
Nice dishonest twisting. I haven’t said anything about working family guys. I have only pointed out the blatant and apparent sexism in your post. You (and your buddies) don’t speak for all working family guys.
This is just another lame twist on the “obey me or I won’t support you” trash feminists hear from pseudo-supporters all the time. Yet another lame cliché doesn’t a valid point make.
I’ve been married for a very long time and yet I don’t get nagged. Wonder why that is.
Wait, wait. I can guess at what lame cliché you’ll use next – I’m whipped, right?
:0
I was ready to close my mouth when I’ve read the posts from Richard Harris. It’s surprising how deluded people can be about their own beliefs (in this case, being a sexist).
Btw. I’m pretty manly myself though. I rock at cooking, when I iron my clothes the creases are razor sharp, I dislike weapons and violence in general, etc.
In other words, I have a wide range of abilities and am pretty independent. Other males who can’t do that, well, they’re weaklings and have to bow before my supreme manly cooking skillz!
——–
Btw. sometimes I get a bit annoyed about truth machine’s post, but now more often I really love them. I could even develop a man crush on him. ^^
So, following the crowd is the only reason you can think of for someone to listen to rock (broadly defined)?
Wow, someone’s never sat down and really listened to Nightwish…
Your implicit assumption that the attitude and pattern of behavior you describe (which, IF your description is accurate, is indeed obnoxious and unjustified) is typical of, or even universal among, women would be a good place to start.
Ouch. <twitch> I guess that’s how to pronounce it with as strong an English accent as possible.
Of course, to be fair, the first vowel doesn’t occur in English, and the second one is unique (it isn’t quite “wa”)…
Not “basically”. It means “of the roof”.
No, but they are embarrassing. At least for Othniel Charles Marsh, who explicitely preferred to be called O. C..
I thought so. I was trying to play on the fact that Americans who are very concerned about their masculinity tend to despise the French. As if being named Kim weren’t enough, imagine this guy entering the age of Freedom Fries… Or rather, don’t. It hurts.
For the record, just about all modern music, including pop and rock, is noise, and it has way too much rhythm. I want my own emotions, not some extraneous influence, to be in control of my heartbeat! And for the record, I’m 25.
I still don’t spend time compiling lists of what is manly and what is not. ~:-|
You are still doing statistics with a sample size of two.
Strangely enough, it still hasn’t happened to me. Maybe my hair color and general nerdiness were too distracting…
Ouch. <twitch> I guess that’s how to pronounce it with as strong an English accent as possible.
Of course, to be fair, the first vowel doesn’t occur in English, and the second one is unique (it isn’t quite “wa”)…
Not “basically”. It means “of the roof”.
No, but they are embarrassing. At least for Othniel Charles Marsh, who explicitely preferred to be called O. C..
I thought so. I was trying to play on the fact that Americans who are very concerned about their masculinity tend to despise the French. As if being named Kim weren’t enough, imagine this guy entering the age of Freedom Fries… Or rather, don’t. It hurts.
For the record, just about all modern music, including pop and rock, is noise, and it has way too much rhythm. I want my own emotions, not some extraneous influence, to be in control of my heartbeat! And for the record, I’m 25.
I still don’t spend time compiling lists of what is manly and what is not. ~:-|
You are still doing statistics with a sample size of two.
Strangely enough, it still hasn’t happened to me. Maybe my hair color and general nerdiness were too distracting…
(Also for the ever-growing record, I have listened to a bit of Nightwish. Has the advantage of having an audible tune, but still… it’s still not my taste.)
(Also for the ever-growing record, I have listened to a bit of Nightwish. Has the advantage of having an audible tune, but still… it’s still not my taste.)
At times like this, I find it quite comforting that my daughter has NEVER liked dolls, and has never chosen nothing but pink clothes.
Teaching women to submit. Lovely. They have more in common with the Taliban than they’ll ever admit.
Unlike other aspects of music which are not culturally transmitted, such as a 12-note chromatic scale, and the pitch at 440 Hz being called ‘A’.
C’mon guys, let’s try to keep the amount of completely and utterly out to lunch statements to a minimum here.
Mr du Toit seems to equate behaving morally (according to Judeo-Christian code at least) with manliness. So, is not cheating is your spouse ‘manly’ if a woman does it? And too, not acting on every impulse — something else he seems to equate with manliness — is simply what others have called ‘behaving as an adult’.
Either way, his essay was sad-making, but not as much as the apologia from ‘The Mrs’. Talk about a folie a deux. Hopefully ‘The Kids’ will rebel against both of them.
http://www.mrsdutoit.com/index.php/main/single/2969/
Btw, is some old bike-riding coot here really trying to argue that liking rock music must be culturally determined? What if you like *unpopular* rock music? What if you like lots of music from lots of different genres, in addition to rock? What if you like music from other cultures too? Sheesh.
If we can figure out a way to convert misogyny to electricity, du Toit would go one hell of a long way to help fight global warming.
Perhaps my favorite section of that gibbering bit of insanity:
Women, even liberal women, swooned over George Bush in a naval aviator’s uniform. Donald Trump still gets access to some of the most beautiful pussy available, despite looking like a medieval gargoyle. Donald Rumsfeld, if he wanted to, could fuck 90% of all women over 50 if he wanted to, and a goodly portion of younger ones too.
This trash could drive Cthulhu crazy.
In general, no.
When the title of said essay by the other guy is “The Pussification of the Western Male,” sure, I’ll take that poetic license and use a term I wouldn’t normally use.
If “pussification” is the worst fear of these types, then pussies they shall be.
I actually sat and read the first link, finally, in its entirety (well, not the comments too). Since the site requires registration to post a comment and there’s no way in hell I’m registering at the sort of place that would post this sort of trash, I’ll vent here instead. So, an open letter to Mr. Wayne Johns:
Shorter Richard Harris:
“Ach you crazy kids – dinnae a’tell ye t’stay offa my lawn?”
This is a profoundly – PROFOUNDLY – ignorant statement. As if it’s not “culturally normative” to believe (on authority) that the three B’s, Mozart, Wagner, Tchaikovskiy et al are objectively “better” than music written or performed by any number of popular artists of the past century. [*eyeroll*] This is a big topic with a great deal of room for statements that contain the phrase, “it depends”…
Nightwish is pretty cool, if you like Finnish operatic metal. *smirk*
David M, what (if anything) do you listen to for pleasure?
Nightwish is, in my experience, the most accessible spectacular example of the potential of modern musical forms to rival the classical music on which so much hero-worship is poured (that is to say, it’s the first band that comes to mind whose music has that quality without requiring the viewer to stomach “Beauty and the Beast” vocals).
I just find it ironic that sodmite evolutionists seems to think their qualified to comment on the Christian institution of marriage! What gives homos the right to dictate how marriage should be more than Kim du Troit or Wayne Johns?
It’s even worse than you think, Pole Greaser. Once Hitlery is elected and the Worldwide Homo Agenda is implemented, “ius primae noctis” is going to take on a whole new meaning that will make good Christian men like yourself quake in justified fear of your wedding nights.
Of course, you might always find that you like it. After all, so many of your sort do.
Harhar! I have come to learn that this is difficult to imagine for most people… I don’t listen to anything. I like a lot of “classical” music, but I don’t bother buying a CD, or a CD player, or even downloading MP3s. For pleasure, I read.
Harhar! I have come to learn that this is difficult to imagine for most people… I don’t listen to anything. I like a lot of “classical” music, but I don’t bother buying a CD, or a CD player, or even downloading MP3s. For pleasure, I read.
David: That’s not difficult to imagine – I know a few people who don’t place music anywhere near the top of their priority list, for whom music is, at best, wallpaper. That’s fine; everyone has their passions.
It’s difficult for me to imagine that for ME, though.
I suppose this means the engagement is off. *sob*
:-)
Azky: I enjoy Nightwish – the female vocal numbers, anyway, which ironically enough have an operatic quality; the faux-Grendel male vocal approach doesn’t impress me – but I don’t think there’s anything particularly “classical” about their compositions. For that, I’d go back several decades to the so-called art-rock of Yes, or perhaps to the sometimes brilliant irreverence of Zappa.
(Note: Nightwish has a new female vocalist, who is a decent singer but who sounds not much different from many other, umm, pop/rock singers. The distinctive style of Tarja Turunen is gone, and so is, I fear, what it was that made Nightwish distinctive in the first place.)
Part of the problem with addressing Mr. Harris’s objections is that we don’t really know what he means by “pop/rock”. Would he include Zappa in that? How about Brian Eno? I find Eno’s best work to be as spiritually soothing and intellectually stimulating as that of JS Bach – and yet the two work in entirely different genres. And surely some of the compositions of (for example) Schoenberg, Ives, and Varese qualify as “noise” by the standards of the Baroque, Classical, and Romantic eras. Gotta define terms here… :-)
I wonder how Mr. Harris feels about Elliot Carter? Nobody who believes that Carter’s work has validity can possibly, in good conscience, dismiss Zappa as nothing more than a noise-maker.
While I’m on the subject, I apologize to Mr. Harris for calling his statement “profoundly ignorant” – what I mean to say is that nobody who dismisses all of “pop/rock” (whatever that is) as universally, uniformly and completely bad (as in, not “in any sense good”) has an ideological barrier separating him from the truth. Take the cotton out of your ears, sir! You don’t have to like what you hear, but such a sweeping condemnation reveals only that you haven’t really listened.
Whatever happened to young men looking for a good Christian wife and finding a young woman still clinging to her doll?
They grew up and figured out that if they wanted a lapdog, it’s cheaper just to go buy a lapdog.
I admit it… I wouldn’t date practicing religious girls – ANY religion. To me they fell under the “Don’t date crazy people” umbrella.
A very good friend of mine got dumped by his girlfriend of 1 year earlier this year. The reason: she said he wasn’t religious enough. Ouch. It’s hard to be consoling about the loss of a relationship when you want to say “Dude, you are so, so lucky you should go buy a lottery ticket.” She was a foaming-at-the-mouth Pentecostal. I was stunned it took a year.
Maybe he thought he could “corrupt” her?
Well, having functioning brains is one reason….
Just a question for you there, Pole Smoker: if marriage is a ChriStain (sic) institution, how do you think that marriage as a formalised institutione existed long before Christ?
Oh wait. I wrote: “how do you think”, and therefore answered my own question.
“I suppose this means the engagement is off. *sob*”
I’m so sorry to hear that. If there’s anything you need, I’m here for you.
Although I think I’m a bit put off by the more pretentious grandiose music out there. I prefer the grandiose bizarrity of Mr. Bungle.
Thanks, Rey. ;-)
Fact is, my tastes are simple – but broad. Music can be grand without being grandiose, sophisticated without being pretensious, simple without beind mindless, noisy without being “noise”. It kinda depends on the artist’s intent and vision, and on their success in executing that intent and in realizing that vision. This is why I’d take Steve Reich over Nickelback, and Wilco (or, hell – Weezer) over Philip Glass. If that makes sense to anyone here but me, please raise your hand! :-D
(Is a sodmite evolutionist someone who studies soil-dwelling microarthropods?)
Kseniya “…is that nobody who dismisses all of “pop/rock” (whatever that is) as universally, uniformly and completely bad (as in, not “in any sense good”) has an ideological barrier separating him from the truth. Take the cotton out of your ears, sir! You don’t have to like what you hear, but such a sweeping condemnation reveals only that you haven’t really listened.”
I enter public buildings – stores, pubs, restaurants, even the blood donor clinic (I don’t go now as a consequence) & they inflict what I call pop/rock on me. I have never once heard anything that I’ve not found annoying after, at most, a few minutes. The whole genre is crap.
There are several possibilites. 1) My taste (the basic taste unaffected by cultural influences) is at odds with just about everyone else. 2) I cannot hear music properly. 3) I cannot process music properly. 4) I enjoy different emotional responses to those that most others enjoy. 5) I have not been encultured to believe pop/rock is music.
I’m pretty sure that 1), 2), 3) are all pretty normal, so what about 4)? As for the emotional responses that I enjoy or hate, maybe there are some significant differences between me & others. As I can’t directly access my subconscious, I don’t know for sure, but in most of my emotional responses to life generally I seem to be fairly normal. Finally, 5). I do have reasons for thinking that enculturation processes haven’t much influenced me. For instance, I’ve always felt like an outsider, & I don’t like being among large groups of people; sometimes three is too many. This probably feeds back into 4).
Now I do know that enculturation can make intelligent peple believe crap. There are plenty of intelligent religiots, for instance. And maybe my emotional responses to ‘belonging’ are abnormal.
Pop/rock’s popularity, therefore, appears to be due to enculturation based upon ‘belonging’, which is lost on me, & of no value. So, I’m quite confident that pop/rock is complete & utter crap, at least for me. And that includes the noise made by Zappa. (I also don’t think much of most Carter, although the Boston Concerto wasn’t bad.) As pop/rock is inflicted upon me regularly, I get irate about it.
It just amuses me that most of the regulars here criticize the religiots for not being, (in my terms), free thinkers, when they themselves aren’t (by my analysis) in other areas. Of course, on my analysis, I’m at fault for not being influenced by ‘belonging’ emotions. So, I guess I should apologize to anyone who took offence. Sorry. (But your goddam noise still gets on my goddam nerves!)
*raises hand* Yeah, Nickelback sucks, I understand. :)
“I enter public buildings – stores, pubs, restaurants, even the blood donor clinic (I don’t go now as a consequence) & they inflict what I call pop/rock on me. I have never once heard anything that I’ve not found annoying after, at most, a few minutes. The whole genre is crap.”
Ah. So the ‘whole genre’, in existence now for more than half a century, has been adequately sampled by what you’ve been *forced* to hear, in public places over heaven knows what sound systems.
Clearly, no one has to apologize for calling your opinion on this ‘profoundly ignorant’. And btw, I hate being forced to listen to music — ANY music — too. That doesn’t turn me against the music, it turns me against the thoughtless boobs who foist it on me.
Your sweeping dismissal is no more or less absurd than a sweeping dismissal of ‘classical’ by someone who’s main exposure to it is Muzak.
The funny thing is, the gist of your argument — ‘you’re all brainwashed drones with no taste; I’m an outsider and proud of it!’ — is much the same stance adopted by ‘indie’ rock hipsters against the mainstream. They’re silly too.
:-}
:-}
Richard — The precise term for what you’ve had inflicted on you isn’t “pop/rock,” it’s either “elevator music,” “Muzak,” or “adult contemporary radio,” depending on its origins. All of it sucks, and one shouldn’t judge any actual genre using it as the benchmark…
Of course, I live and die by actual rock, and maybe some pop, too. On the other hand, pretty much nothing I like is liable to be played over a piped-in music system anywhere, which says less about my taste than what’s deemed acceptable for public consumption, I’m afraid. “Good” and “radio-friendly unit shifter” often have at best a nodding acquaintance, since what gets played in public is designed from the ground up to be as bland and inoffensive as possible. I like my music spicy and raunchy, thank you.
And Richard, you are such a Nice Guy™ it hurts. (Think I should sic Amanda Marcotte on ‘im?)
I commented about the du Toit crap on my blog earlier, and Kim’s wife found it and jumped down my throat.
I found this SO funny, considering Kim’s comments about “pussified” men and women having too much power…Couldn’t he come stand up for himself? ^_^
Mr. Harris,
I’m not you, obviously, but I’d say numbers 2 and 3 can be discarded. :-)
Malls and waiting rooms rarely offer desirable sources or settings for music. There’s a lot of music my peers like that utterly fails to inspire me. *shrug* That said, peers do influence each other, obviously, and there is a shared cultural experience going on – and a (rock) concert can be a tribal celebration of that, in a way that going to Symphony Hall to hear the Berlioz Requiem (or even Beeth9) is simply… not.
Incidentally, what proportion of listeners rank the 9th high soley by its reputation? How many could tell you WHY it’s considered great, let alone why – or if – it actually IS great? No cultural indoctrination going on there, eh?
And hey, The Rite of Spring may be a spectacular ballet, and one of greatest pieces of the last century, but it’s crappy dance music. ;-) (Gotta love a ballet that sparked a riot, though!)
Again, I remind you, it’s by no means necessary for you to LIKE any of the music that I and others have mentioned. But you have dismissed ALL of it as being completely without merit – not “in any sense good” – and I wonder how you can possibly justify such a claim when I doubt you can define the terms of what is “good”, nor be aware of what it is, in its entirety, that you’re dismissing.
What about the art songs of Kate Bush, Tori Amos, or Rufus Wainwright? Completely without merit? The emotional complexity and sweet melodicism of Neil Finn’s work – completely without merit? The soulful commentaries of Marvin Gaye or the prodigious, multi-talented Stevie Wonder – completely without merit? The gentle atmospherics and cascades of a song like Coldplay’s “High Speed” – completely without merit? The musical imagination, stylistic range, and pithy lyricism of countless songs by XTC – completely without merit? The elegant passions of Alicia Keyes – completely without merit? The entire body of work by the Beatles – completely without merit?
I’m kinda with you on Carter. He has a certain charm, but there’s a reason why he’s not well-known. However, that’s beside the point: Unless you claim that all of Carter’s work is noise, you can’t claim that all of Zappa’s work is noise – not without admitting you haven’t heard enough Zappa to know and appreciate the range of influences plainly exhibited in some of his work. Of course, you might then argue that those works aren’t “pop/rock” at all, and are exempt from condemnation. ;-)
BTW, there’s no need to apologize – not to me, anyways. I’m not offended. Bemused, perhaps. One of my brothers has decided to refuse to watch any movie that’s more than 10 or 15 years old. He has decided that “old” movies suck. You two should get together. Heh. The only thing that’s vaguely insulting is the implication that those of us who like some of the various kinds (and there are so, so many) of pop/rock music do so ONLY because we’ve been culturally brainwashed. I assure you – if you haven’t already figured it out – that that is not the case.
Ok, I’ll get offa yer lawn now.
Yes, of course he could. But that would throw a wrench in your projections about Kim wouldn’t it? You’re so convinced that Kim, despite stating quite plainly “no cave man males” is a Neanderthal. I mean, you’re all certain what kind of man he is, and by extension, what kind of woman I am… wouldn’t want to let a little truth get in the way of your assumptions?
What, exactly, is the connection between the linked article and Kim’s post? Kim (and I) are both atheists so how does a religious call for submission by women connected, in any way, with a post about the civil liberties encroachments and the media portrayals of men as children, or helpless buffoons?
And you guys post on a blog under the “science” banner? Amazing!
Let me see if I have all the tired memes so far:
–Must have issues because he has a “girl’s name” (except it isn’t a “Girl’s name” in other parts of the world, but you’re all so worldly!).
–Must be compensating for a small penis
–Must be a racist Afrikaner
–Last name must be pronounced as “Twat”
Gee, where I have heard THOSE comments before?? Everywhere that people wish to discredit the messenger and Kim instead of actually refuting his points. Lovely illustrations of your superior intellect.
The “too much power” comment is a strawman. He said no such thing. In fact, if you’d get off your assumptions horse for a moment, you mind discover that what he was describing and ranting against was the machismo stereotype rather than a measured, nuanced male, as in “more like Dad,” which were Kim’s exact words. What Kim was ranting against was instrusiveness… of the nanny state, of perpetual encroachment of liberties under the guise of “Mommy Knows Best.”
What about “individuals can decide for themselves”?
Kim will be the first to chide the Pussification post himself. He wrote it years ago, in a fit of anger, after reading this or that report of yet another civil liberty encroachment. It shocked both of us when it resonated with so many people, men AND woman, who were (to use a cliché) “sick and tired and not wanting to take it anymore.”
It was one of over 10,000 posts on his website. In others you’ll find out that he (GASP!) is not quite the “cave man” stereotype that you hope him to be. That “racist Afrikaner” is the one who was arrested for protesting against Apartheid (protest in SA was illegal). He was also the man who refused to comply with Apartheid laws and told a judge IN COURT that he refused to comply. He speaks 4 languages, was a professional musician (rock and is a trained chorister), is extremely well-read… but don’t bother with any of that if you’re happier believing your own (false) assumptions.
Since that time, the troglodyte of your imaginations, has taught hundreds of women how to shoot so they can defend themselves, and has helped thousands of others buy their first gun, hooking them up with other “cave men” volunteers who spend hours donating their time to help them learn to use that gun safely and properly.
But feel free to remain stuck in your assumptions and projections about my husband, and he will continue to REALLY empower women with the means of self defense…. you remember, the women he thinks shouldn’t have power?
Svn Nys s th bst cyclcrss rdr f th mmnt, I sw hm rd n Ovrjs ths wknd!