I’m currently sitting in the Las Vegas airport waiting for my flight home (yay for finally having Internet access!). TAM8 was absolutely amazing, and I’ll be making posts about it over the next couple of days. But in the mean time, here’s one more discussion question for you guys, since you seemed to enjoy the last couple.
Let’s assume you have proof that God exists. You’re now a believer for whatever reason. But believing in God is totally different from following his laws and living your life the way he desires.
Would you actually worship him? Would your life change in any way? Or would you rebel for any ethical, philosophical, or personal reasons?
Now, this depends on what definition of God we’re using. A Protestant Christian God would be very different from a deist God, which would be very different from Zeus, etc. Feel free to discuss all, but unless you clarify in your comment, let’s assume you’re talking about the traditional Judeo-Christian God.
Yes, I would rebel. The reason why is because the God of the Bible is a sanctimonious fucking douchebag and one of the worst characters in all of fiction. If he were real, he’s not fit to be worshipped.
Depends what kind of upgrades I can get. If I’m a believer I’ll milk that cow for everything it’ll provide.
To be completely honest, I don’t think my brain is capable of worshipping ANYTHING anymore. Since I deconverted from fundamentalist Christianity over a year ago I think my brain chemistry has radically changed to the point where worship is impossible. Well, perhaps I was only deluding myself when I was a believer that I was worshipping god.
If we’re talking about the traditional Judeo-Christian god…fuck yeah, I’d worship him. He’d FRY my ass if I didn’t.If that counts, I mean. If going through the motions doesn’t cut it, I’d be toast. And if that were the case, I’d give up the false pretenses and do whatever. He’s sending me to Hell, anyway. (Actually, it could be argued that it’s impossible to get into Heaven in the first place, so maybe I wouldn’t after all…)
Questions like this are tough because it is difficult to know when it is just hypothetical. I would like to think that I would not worship such a God because of the clear lack of a reasonable ethical stance he possesses. However, I am aware that I, like anyone else, have a basic drive for self-preservation and like the participants in the Milgram experiment, I can’t say I’m not easily swayed by peer pressure or, even, in this case, Godly pressure. Even if I think the god is a dickhead, I may easily be influenced to do whatever that god said.
Depends. Most likely not, unless he was very hands-off with the world. I certainly wouldn’t worship any of the Abrahamic conceptions of a god. YHWH, Jehovah, Allah, all of them have their own reasons that make them monsters. I’d probably feel open contempt for him if it actually was Jesus/the Holy Trinity, considering his whole angle was to play with human emotions by becoming a false martyr.
This. If God is the one in the Old Testament then he’s got a hell of a lot of splaining to do.On top of that, why the heck would an all knowing, all powerful, all loving, all whatever God want people to worship him. It’s creeptastic.
Worship is also a difficult word to work with, since it can range from simply acknowledging the God as your savior to following a a very strict group of rituals every day. I’d tend toward no, simply because if we’re talking about the Judeo-Christian concept of God, well, he’s a douche and not worth worshiping in my eyes. He’s petulant and unsteady and psychotic and there’s no guarantee that if you do follow His every rule that you won’t still wind up in trouble. No point in trying to worship a God like that.
Sophie’s got it right, I think. If Old Testament God were real, we’re working with something on par with a totalitarian dictatorship in the midst of committing a genocide. So, I’d react in much the same way I would were I living in Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia. Odds are, I’d be towing the party line at the very least. The best I would hope for is to not be actively involved in the bureaucracy propping up the megalomaniac at the top.
Referring to just the Judeo-Christian god, I don’t think I’d be able to. I have a serious problem with the whole idea of someone creating this world and have one species of the inhabitants worship him. There’s too many ego issues there. For some reason, I relate this to playing a board game. Haven’t thought it out completely why I do….I just do. Have mercy on my infidel soul….
I wouldn’t worship, simply because the closest I come to actual worship is to get all fanboy over someone. If God existed and made kick-ass literature/film/art/music, then *maybe* I’d get all fanboy over Him. Otherwise, I somehow doubt it. My prevailing response would be something like: Meh. Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss.So I probably wouldn’t overtly rebel, either. That depends on whether or not this hypothetical God turns out to be a bullying asshole, of course. If it was called for, I’d get all Paradise Lost over that in a heartbeat, the same way I’d rebel against an absolute monarch who was being a right prick re: taxation.But if God existed and wasn’t a dick about it, I’d probably just bashfully update my ontology and blush for a while about being so utterly wrong about the whole atheism/ignosticism thing.Then I’d go about my business as usual. Meh.
I think the idea that any being can possibly be worthy of WORSHIP is utterly false. So even if there is a deity, I would not worship it. A deity is irrelevant to my life for all reasons, including ethics (cf. Euthyphro dilemma).The world being as it is, I would rebel against a deity, at least intellectually, because it a deity existed, it would be utterly evil to allow the world to be in this state, according to my ideals of right and wrong.
Oh man, if the Greeks were right…. Lets just say Athena would not be the Virgin Goddess for long.Like at all.Anyway, Yahweh would get nothing from me, I hate that asshole. Vishnu would be pretty cool, but what can we expect from the guy who gave us the best holy book of all: The Tantra.
Theodicy (The Mothers) God cannot be, sohe created the mothers. God created the heavens and the earthwithout form and void, and God cannot be, sothe mothers brought forth daughters and sons,but let’s talk about daughters. God is three people, and God is one,and God cannot be, sothe mothers tilled paradisewith their daughters at their kneesand the daughters learned the stepslearned to bend and sway,learned the songsfor sowing, for threshing,and for harvest. The boys were out huntingor fishing or fightingand thinking up really big lies about it,because the Lord their Godis a jealous Godand God cannot be, so the mothers kept their daughters close,and all fingers busypicking the ripe fruitfrom the tree of knowledgeof good and evil. Take, eatthe mothers say to the daughters, soyou may know what is preciousin our sight. Plenty will be left over for the boys. There is no God but God, and Godthe compassionate, the merciful cannot be, sothe women have mercyand teach it to their girl childrenwhile the men are busycounting their begats. God from whom all blessings flowcannot be, sothe mothers carry the daughters’ waterto the place all waters flow,and God himselfneeded his mother and sistersto get there. God is love, and Godin his infinite mercy cannot be, sothe mothers love with a lovestronger than death,dropping tears of bloodin their daughters’ shadows. Dana Pattillo
I simply could not worship the same God as Glen Beck.
The irony about this question is that, in my view, any god deserving of worship would never require worship.
Define worship.Thanking G-d for what she had done in creating the world, okay. The world is nice to have around. I don’t know where I’d be without it. If G-d said to me “Hey, would you mind picking up a sheep and burning it for me?” I’d consider it, but I’d try to bargain her down to a sheep shank, because I don’t have the money to waste on burning an entire sheep.But that’s pretty much all I’d do. Just show gratitude when it seemed appropriate.That is, if G-d is like I imagine she would be. She creates the universe and mostly leaves it to its own devices. She follows the rules that govern the universe now that they’re in place. Things aren’t perfect because the world wouldn’t be interesting if it were, and I see no reason that a god would create a universe other than to amuse herself. Okay, to amuse herself and possibly get research data. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.I don’t know how one would rebel against such a god.
If the Mormon god(s) existed I’d hop right on the bandwagon! I could become a god!Then I’d start a cabal with the other discontented gods and whack the Big Guy.Because everyone knows God is a dick.http://laughinginpurgatory.blo…
If God existed, he kind of did make kick-ass art: the universe. I think that would certainly be worth fanboying over.That said, there’s a world of difference between fanboying over someone and worshiping them. If God existed and were as Judeo-Christian tradition describes Him, I would more or less look at Him in the same way I look at people like Igor Stravinsky, Richard Wagner, or Salvador Dali: an amazing artist, but a major asshole. Worthy of admiration for His creations, but not worthy of worship.
All gods are only in our imagination. It is impossible to come up with a character that is not contradictory according to our imagined terms. It only provides further proof that there is no god.
Good call.As for the universe being art… Nebulae may be great, but I’m less thrilled about wasps.
I would probably take the same view of god then that I do of the government. I actually discussed this with a friend on a video I made, so I am just going to cut and paste that here:I also think there is just a huge difference in perspective between an Atheist and a Theist. I don’t see how any being could have the authority that god is given (often without question). Even if I thought there was a god I think I would hold it to much the same standards I hold government. Government has to be able to answer to us, we can questions its rules (and should), we can work to change the rules, and government is not exempt from “morality.” We give the government power in a sort of respect for it to make society work better. But if government doesn’t work we have the right to change (and potentially overthrow) it.
(assuming a judeo-xian variety in the so-called American mold …)i cemented my atheism when prop 8 passed. i did so by actually screaming out to God: “you fucking miserable hateful bastard!!! i do not believe in you. i will not. i refuse. you have fucked up this planet and your creation’s existence with your psychopathically twisted mockery of ‘love.’ you will be required (per your own promised threats) to torture me forever in your fucking hell and brimstone – and you will know for all eternity that my suffering, and that of all other ‘sinners’ is on your hands. you could stop all suffering – if you wanted to. you could stop all natural disasters – if you wanted to. you could bring peace to all people, ‘your’ children – if you wanted to. you are a miserable excuse for an all-powerful, all-knowing deity and i curse your name and being with all of mine. my eternal suffering here and in the afterlife is all your doing and responsibility, and it’s up to you if you want continue your misogynistic, homophobic, murderous insanity – all torment in this life and hell is your fault and responsibility – and you will suffer for the pain of your creations along with me for all eternity. besides, i loved my mom more than anything and she died an atheist, so what do you expect me to do? i’m not spending eternity anywhere she ain’t.”(that said … it would take a global manifestation and a helluva lot of explaining for me to actually believe there’s anything out there listening or an afterlife to suffer through …)
Like many others, if God exists, and wants to be worshipped, then he doesn’t deserve worship. Hell, worship in the conventional sense is a crazy idea anyway. It’s the bit of traditional Quaker language that leaves me most uncomfortable, but you just have to get used to understanding it differently if you’re a non-theistic Quaker (like all of the Christian-based language).No-one and nothing is deserving of worship. Respect, yes. Thanks, if I not only had evidence of Their existence but also of Them doing something worthy of gratitude (just because I come to believe They exist doesn’t mean I believe They created everything). And if They really do have some big plan and everything happens for some reason of Theirs, then They sure as hell have some explaining to do.I’m not debasing myself to some other entity, no matter how cosmically powerful and unknowably different it is.
Most of us Christians don’t. We worship the God manifested in Jesus Christ. I’m not totally sure what deity Glenn Beck worships other than his ego.
You know, the priests got to eat the sheep. I think I would be a priest, because it is a never-ending free barbecue.
If it was not the Judeo-Christian-Islamic one, maybe. I mean, I could handle an ethical version of the Greek gods. Powerful, kind, tries to help even if not all-powerful.I suppose any God I would worship would seem a lot like Superman. I suppose I could worship Superman, but I think he wouldn’t want worship.
I’m atheist because I’m ignostic.
Depends on the god I’d say. I tend to have issues with authority as it is so I don’t think I’d be able to really follow the God of the Old Testament for example. Jesus I could get down with himself. Now if it were some other god, well depends.Also what kind of worship are we talking here?
I’m an atheist, partly because I’m ignostic. Any God is going to have to come up with major, non-contradictory evidence before I acknowledge its existence. Without supernatural evidence, I’d just treat it as an alien that I don’t understand that uses alien technology that I don’t understand.In other words, I would treat it as something to be studied, learned from, in the hopes that I can understand (at least in small part) how it does what it does. I imagine a lot of physicists and cosmologists would be doing the same.I’d be diplomatic about it – using Will Rogers’ definition of diplomacy.
No. For the same reason I do not worship my parents.
If the Judeo-Christian god existed, I definitely wouldn’t worship him. Now Satan, though, I might just. I’ve read the Satanic Bible by Anton LaVey, and the Satan he paints is one with the utmost respect and appreciation for humankind.And if I was damned to Hell for all eternity? I’d make do, I think. Wouldn’t you get used to it, after a while? Or is Satan continually upping the intensity of torture so you never quite adapt?And if I was sentenced to oblivion, doomed to cease existing entirely? No big deal; I’m living my life like that’s gonna happen anyway. Plus, it wouldn’t really bother me, now would it?But then, that’s only if the whole Christian mythology turned out to be true. If I got to pick which god existed, I’d be chilling with the Flying Spaghetti Monster in the afterlife with my beer volcanoes and my stripper factory. The FSM is, unquestionably, the best deity anyone’s ever come up with, and I’d totally worship Him if He hadn’t specifically told us He didn’t want us to.
Worship, no. Respect, no. Admire, no. Love, no. Fear, yes!
If there’s an all powerful God that’s been sending people to hell for not believing in him despite giving us no evidence of his existence, then he’s a prick. I’d generally try to avoid his notice if I could and continue living my life like I have. If it comes right down to it, I’d want to go out like the end of Vonnegut’s “Cat’s Cradle”: flat on my back, flipping off the sky.If, counterintuitively, there’s a God and it (probably sexless) is actually good, then I’d try to emulate him, not worship him. I don’t see how bowing and chanting, or swearing that you’re ever-so-thankful ever helped anything.
IF g0d exists S/He/IT is nothing like the buybull BS.IF S/He/IT created us then we are as we should be,real humans do not bow to anyone so I would not bow to S/He/IT either. We are what we are, & I yam what I yam! Deal.But really if something came down and said they were g0d – my 1st thought would be …Remember the Ori!!!
Except that, when you become a god, you get your own universe, too, so there’d be no point in ousting Elohiim. Well, except out of spite, of course.I’d always wondered who orchestrated (is orchestrating?) the whole “good kids get their own universes” thing. “No, there isn’t some All-God our God reports to,” they told me, “now quit asking and act like everyone else.”Silly me for trying to understand the theology.
I agree with this. Beyond that, worship, prayer, ritual, meditation, what have you, have no effect on god and are not intended to have an effect on god; they effect the person or persons performing said act of devotion. Whether consciously designed or unconsciously evolved, all such acts are self-directed and/or directed to other people around the worshiper. Whether or not you believe (I don’t) this is both logically and theologically sound.
Meister Eckhart said: “God is not a being; God is absolute being.” This absolute unqualified being Eckhart calls “unnatured nature.” God is not “good” or “bad; all finite things are present in, and part of, God, exalted and reconciled in a manner beyond the comprehension of a finite being. Finite being is the negation of God; God is the negation of the finite, the negation of negation. The Kabalists call this “Ein Sof,” the unknowableexistence of God. It also reminds us of Keat’s phrase: “negative capability.”
Leah: YES!!! That is exactly right. Free-willed life is not created for worship, it is created for relationship.
A spider eating a moth is free of moral evil, and only creatures such as ourselves who allegedly possess the conscious capability of choice can commit a moral evil. However, I would guess that the moth, with whatever smidgen of consciousness it possesses, considers being eaten alive an evil. If you believe God created the spider, that the spider is part of God’s design, or even if you just go for the distant prime mover god and think that God set the initial conditions that resulted in the spider; then the spider’s need to eat moths in order to survive is a natural evil and the perpetrator is God. To my mind, that does not lead to the conclusion that we should worship god. My if, then is a very human conclusion, too, and god if it exists would probably be beyond any human understanding by definition. But that would imply god’s justice, god’s dispensation of good and evil is beyond our comprehension, and therefore, in human terms, unavailable. Just as human justice is unavailable to a spider. If god loves and attends us, we can no more be aware of it than a spider is aware of biologist whose specialty is arachnids. In that case, I say god might as well not exist, and we certainly shouldn’t waste any time worshipping god.
“We must not accept the command of an authority, however exalted, as the basis of ethics. For whenever we are faced with a command by an authority, it is for us to judge, critically, whether it is moral or immoral to obey. “…in whatever way the Deity should be made known to you, and ever if He should reveal Himself to you: it is you who must judge whether you are permitted to believe in Him, and to worship Him.” Immanuel Kant, Religion Within the Limits of Pure Reason (1794)
These posts are great. The overall sense I’m getting is: If God can create a universe, why would God be so petty and want/need hero/rockstar/paganish worship? (The Ori allusion is right on target). What makes me sad is how good a job the fundamental absoluteists have done in brain-washing people into thinking that their vision of God is THE ONLY Christian view and theology.It is not.If you want to see a very different view of God, then all I will do here is issue an invitation to read an article at [D]mergent.org. (Spoiler Alert – the article has a theist orientation)GOD IS…http://dmergent.org/2010/07/02…
Along a similar line, a friend of mine recently sent me an email with the article below. I’m unconvinced – but I was impressed by the originality of the idea. I hadn’t heard this one before.———————————–When did they become philosophical?from The Best Article Every day by bspcnYou were on your way home when you diedIt was a car accident. Nothing particularly remarkable, but fatal nonetheless. You left behind a wife and two children. It was a painless death. The EMTs tried their best to save you, but to no avail. Your body was so utterly shattered you were better off. Trust me.And that’s when you met me.“What… what happened?” You asked. “Where am I?”“You died,” I said, matter-of-factly. No point mincing words.“There was a…a truck and it was skidding…”“Yup.” I said.“I… I died?”“Yup. But don’t feel bad about it. Everyone dies.” I said.You looked around. There was nothingness. Just you and me. “What is this place?” You asked.“Is this the afterlife?”“More or less,” I said.Are you god?” You asked.“Yup.” I replied. “I’m God.”“My kids… my wife,” you said. “What about them? Will they be alright?”“That what I like to see,” I said. “You just died and your main concern is for your family. That’s good stuff right there.”You looked at me with fascination. To you, I didn’t look like God. I just looked like some man. Some vague authority figure. More of a grammar school teacher then the almighty.“Don’t worry,” I said. “They’ll be fine. Your kids will remember you as perfect in every way.They didn’t have time to grow contempt for you. Your wife will cry on the outside, but will be secretly relieved. To be fair, your marriage was falling apart. If it’s any consolation she’ll feel very guilty for feeling relieved.”“Oh,” you said. “So what happens now? Do I go to heaven or hell or something?”“Neither,” I said. “You’ll be reincarnated.”“Ah, so the Hindus were right.”“All the religions are right in their own way,” I said. “Walk with me.” You followed along as we strolled in the void.“Where are we going?”“Nowhere in particular,” I said. “It’s just nice to walk while we talk.”“So whats the point, then?” You asked. “When I get reborn, I’ll just be a blank slate right? A baby. So all my experiences and everything I did in this life won’t matter.”“Not so!” I said. “You have within you all the knowledge and experiences of all your past lives. You just don’t remember them right now.”I stopped walking and took you by the shoulders. “Your soul is more magnificent, beautiful, and gigantic then you can possibly imagine. A human mind can only contain a tiny fraction of what you are. It’s like sticking your finger in a glass of water to see if it’s hot or cold. You put a tiny part or yourself into the vessel, and when you bring it back out, you’ve gained all the experiences it had.“You’ve been a human for the last 34 years, so you haven’t stretched out yet and felt the rest of you immense consciousness. If we hung out here for longer, you’d start remembering everything. But there’s no point doing that between each life.”“How many times have I been reincarnated, then?”“Oh lots. Lots and lots. And into lots of different lives.” I said. “This time around you’ll be a Chinese peasant girl in 540 A.D.”“Wait, what?” You stammered. “You’re sending me back in time?”“Well, I guess technically. Time, as you know it, only exists in your universe. Things are different where I come from.”“Where you come from?” You pondered.“Oh sure!” I explained. “I come from somewhere. Somewhere else. And there’s others like me. I know you’ll want to know what it’s like there but you honestly wont understand.”“Oh.” you said, a little let down. “But wait. If I get reincarnated to other places in time, could I have interacted with myself at some point?”“Sure. Happens all the time. And with both lives only aware of their own time span you don’t even know it’s happening.”“So what’s the point of it all?”“Seriously?” I asked. “Seriously? You’re asking me for the meaning of life? Isn’t that a little stereotypical?”“Well it’s a reasonable question.” you persisted.I looked in your eyes. “The meaning of life, the reason I made this whole universe, is for you to mature.”“You mean mankind? You want us to mature?”“No. Just you. I made this whole universe for you. With each new life you grow and mature, and become a larger and greater intellect.”“Just me? What about everyone else?”“There is no one else,” I said. “In this universe, there’s just you. And me.”You stared blankly at me. “But all the people on earth…”“All you. Different incarnations of you.”“Wait. I’m everyone!?”“Now your getting it.” I said, with a congratulatory slap on the back.“I’m every human who ever lived?”“Or who will ever live, yes.”“I’m Abraham Lincoln?”“And you’re John Wilkes Booth, too.” I added.“I’m Hitler?” you said, appalled.“And you’re the millions he killed.”“I’m Jesus?”“And you’re everyone who followed him.”You fell silent.“Every time you victimized someone,” I said, “You were victimizing yourself. Every act of kindness you’ve done, you’ve done to yourself. Every happy and sad moment ever experienced by any human was, or will be, experienced by you.”“Why?” You asked me. “Why do all this?”“Because someday, you will become like me. Because that’s what you are. You’re one of my kind. You’re my child.”“Whoa.” you said, incredulous. “You mean I’m a god?”“No. Not yet. You’re a fetus. You’re still growing. Once you’ve lived every human life throughout all time, you will have grown enough to be born.”“So the whole universe,” you said. “It’s just…”“An egg of sorts.” I answered. “Now it’s time for you to move on to your next life.” And I sent you on your way.
I’d be totally in it for spite or justice – whatever you’d want to call it.Yeah, those theistic loons don’t like their loony beliefs being questioned.
One anemic parable deserves another:A guy comes up to Joe on the street and says, “I’m God. Got a quarter? I want to show you a miracle.” For the purposes of this parable, there are three Joes. The first Joe is a person of faith. Faithful Joe coughs up the quarter immediately, yes Lord, I believe in miracles. The second Joe is of a more skeptical bent. Agnostic Joe will think to himself, “I don’t believe in miracles, but it’s worth a quarter to find out what this ‘God’ person is up to.” The third Joe is a complete skeptic. He doesn’t have any spare change and wouldn’t give God or any other homeless person a quarter if he had one. Skeptic Joe says, “Beat it, I don’t give money to panhandlers—get a job.” But to this Joe God says, “You sure you haven’t got a quarter?” The complete skeptic instantly feels something cold against his thigh, reaches into his pocket and pulls out a quarter, cold as ice, so cold in fact that before he can help himself he drops it into God’s outstretched hand. “Bless you,” says God. So, God’s got the quarter. He closes his fist on it, makes a pass over it with his other hand, opens his fist, and of course the quarter is gone. God reaches out and plucks the quarter from behind the ear of each Joe. Even Faithful Joe thinks, “Hey, even my Uncle Joe could do that.” Skeptic Joe says it out loud. In answer to this thought, spoken or unspoken, God flips the coin into the air and says, “Call it!” Faithful Joe calls “Heads!” Agnostic Joe could go either way. Skeptic Joe calls “Tails.” God catches the quarter on the back of his hand. It comes up heads. God turns the coin over; that side also shows heads. Faithful Joe says, “Praise the Lord!” Agnostic Joe says, “That’s a neat trick, but you don’t have to be God to do it, just a good magician.” Skeptic Joe says, “Where’s my quarter? You switched ‘em.” God holds up one hand, then flips the quarter again with the other: “Call it!” All three Joes, thinking they know the way of it now, sing out “Tails!” God puts out his hand to catch the quarter and the coin passes right through his open palm and hits the ground, spinning. “Oops, that’s another gag,” says God. The quarter begins to wobble in its gyrations and finally falls over. The side showing is blank. At this point, each Joe is pretty much speechless. Faithful Joe is already on his knees. Agnostic Joe is scratching his head, thinking, “Did I see what I think I saw? If that was a trick, it was indistinguishable from magic. Real magic.” Skeptic Joe is thinking, “Where is the Amazing Randi or Daniel Dennett when I need them?” God leans over and picks up the quarter between his thumb and forefinger. It is blank on both sides, except for the raised, incised border. “Here.” God puts the quarter in Joe’s hand. “See for yourself.” While the Joes are looking down, fingering the blank coin, God says, “What have you got there?” reaches behind Joe’s other ear and plucks yet another quarter from thin air. This one, as God demonstrates, has a profile of George Washington on one side, and a spread eagle, so to speak, on the other. It is a perfectly normal quarter except for the fact that is it bright blue. God flips this quarter high, high into what is for the purposes of this parable a cloudless blue sky. It goes so high that each Joe, craning his neck and shading his eyes, loses sight of it. “Got another quarter?” Joe looks down at the sound of the God’s voice. God is nowhere in sight. The blank quarter that was in his hand is gone. The blue quarter that God tossed into the air never comes back down, though each Joe waits a long time, listening for a clink. The Skeptic Joe decides he must have been drugged, hypnotized, or both. Agnostic Joe goes to the nearest bar and has a scotch; no water, no ice—make it a double. Faithful Joe, being an entrepreneurial sort as well as a strong believer, writes a book and tours with a seminar called “My Blue Quarter: If Your Spare Change Can Get To Heaven, So Can You.” So, pilgrims and seekers, time for the rhetorical question: Is there some point to this parable? Yes, yes of course. The moral of the story is the no one knows heads from tails when it comes to God; and no, you’ll never get that quarter back.
Have you never read Mark Twain’s “Mysterious Stranger?”
Speaking as a former Philosophy major at a school where the profs were predominantly theists (awesome, intelligent, skeptical theists, but theists none the less.) I’ve actually thought on this issue while sitting in the back of more than one Philosophy of Religion class. If we accept the judeo-christian God as he’s taught by the christian religion (for the sake of dispelling ambiguity, lets say this is Catholic teachings we’re talking about, as it’s what I’m familiar with from my childhood) then there’s no real question about what to do. No matter how much I dislike it, that belief system teaches that right and wrong are (if we break things down logically) God’s whims. They are immutable truths for us, which are completely contingent on how God is feeling that day. There’s no real question in that case. God is everything, so nothing matters but what God says. I would follow the teachings of the modern Catholic church and the Pontiff religiously.If, on the other hand, we assume that the Catholic God is real, but that the writings and teachings regarding him are the work of men, I would totally rebel. Granted, the threat of literal hellfire might weaken my resolve on that issue, but this God is nothing but a bully who created life just so he could pick on it.Though part of me thinks that if the latter case is true–that God exists and founded the Church, but left it alone after that–then it’s possible that God is a pretty cool guy, and religion is simply a test to force us to acquire rational thinking skills en masse. …This post is disorganized and poorly thought out as hell. Please don’t take that as a condemnation of all philosophy majors. In honesty I wasn’t a very good one anyway.
Or Cordwainer Smith’s “Angerhelm?” That homily should be illustrated by Jack Chick, but he doesn’t do turbideist metempyschosis.
t’would be better to free in hell than to serve in heaven.
I find the *concept* of worship a bit absurd. I can’t think of anything I would “worship”. I can’t help finding the idea a bit infantile. I can admire, I can be humbled, I can be in awe….but worship?
No. There are a few gods out there that I might worship, but the Judeo-Christian god isn’t one of them.
A couple days ago, while sitting on the toilet, I had a chat with GOD. He told me what to do, so I did it, and I feel a lot better today. I took a teaspoonful of soluble fiber with each meal, and I have had no more trouble. So, I thank GOD for giving me good advice. GOD has always given me good advice, but I do not always listen.”That is alright, (GOD never says “OK” and never uses contractions with me) you listen often enough that you are still alive.”I wonder why GOD always talks to me in English.
I think there’s another option here as well, in your first case (where you suppose (i) Christianity is true and (ii) divine command ethics). I don’t think that it necessarily follows from the existence of a god that acts in the way the Christian god does, that therefore divine command must be the foundation of ethics and morals… even if that god somehow thinks that to be the case. Divine command ethics have always seemed incoherent to me – I’ve yet to see a convincing reply to Euthyphro’s dilemma.My reaction to the existence of such a god would be to invoke something vaguely Kantian, argue that such a being’s behaviour violates the categorical imperative, and oppose it in whatever way I possibly could. If it punishes me as a result, so be it. Milton had Satan say “I would prefer to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven”, and I’ll echo that by saying I would rather be damned and tortured than violate rational ethical precepts. Even if I knew such opposition to be hopeless, I couldn’t do anything else.The point I’m trying to make is that I see no distinction between your cases 1 and 2. Euthyphro’s dilemma makes case 1 impossible.I’m not sure if I’m making any sense here…
Actually for many sacrifices everyone dug in. Islam still does this. Those families that can sacrifice at Eid al-Adha are expected to cook and share the meat with those who can’t afford it. The same with the ancient Greeks; they even have a myth where Prometheus is put in charge of dividing a sacrificed animal into two portions one of which goes to the gods and one of which to men (gods get first choice) to decide how things will always be divided in the future. Prometheus tricks the gods into choosing the bit which is all fat and bone and men get the meat.
I despise hypocrisy so I would rebel. I’d take the “free will” part and run with it. Besides, all the fun people will be in hell. And being from Canada, a little bit of warm weather would be nice! And if the Leafs win the cup before I die, hell will be frozen, so we can all skate!
I would judge God by his actions, like any other sentient being. If it’s the Judeo-Christian God, and the bible gives an accurate rendition, then no, I wouldn’t worship that psychopath.If the bible is not accurate, I still wouldn’t. All the suffering allowed by a supposed all-powerful, all-knowing, all-benevolent being? Please. Even if God could give me a good explanation for allowing all the suffering, I still wouldn’t. If there is a hell, I still wouldn’t be worried, since I consider myself generally to be a good person and not deserving of eternal torment. I figure God gave me this brain and the inclination to use it, so how could he be mad that I think for myself?And if he really does send people to eternal torment in hell for the sole reason that they don’t worship him, even if they have otherwise lived perfectly good lives, then he’s an egotistical maniac not deserving of worship.
Actually, this concept is both PERSONAL, and NOT.It passes all understanding.So, about WHAT are we talking?Impossible.But, Yet, Still – – the wee small voice – – – in English, no less!Pagans have it right.Singing and dancing, what a wonderful sight: singing and dancing into the night.Then, comes the dawn.Ah, the dawning.McReight is right.
Even assuming that a god existed, and it wanted to be worshiped (laughable concept in itself, but if we are suspending disbelief…), I don’t think I’m capable of worshiping anything. I’m not even sure what that entails or how it feels to worship something because I’ve never done it. I guess the closest feeling I’ve experienced is being in love. Could I fall in love with a god? It sounds pretty silly and a little creepy, when I put it that way. So I’m thinking no. lol.
A god worth the name would not require worship, so – no, I wouldn’t.
Pray to god, get +2 armor? Hell yeah.
It really depends upon the god(s). Any stripe of Jewish, Christian, or Islam? Most likely not. Zoroastrianism, probably. Deist deities, yeah, probably, if in a general way of admiring a universe system built and then set to spin, much like I would any fine piece of machinery – though a deist God wouldn’t care much for worship anyway. But for the most part, I’m not big on omnipotent single deities.That said, I’m not sure I couldn’t be swayed otherwise if I knew for certain that Hell existed as well for those who didn’t convert. It’s not Pascal’s Wager if you know for an absolute, factual certainty that God exists. It’s more like Stockholm Syndrome in that case.Most polytheisms I wouldn’t have a big problem with. The gods are generally not entirely omnipotent, and while a lot of them can be dicks, they can also be pretty cool. I mean, they’re basically big humans, and have their jobs, and if they’re doing those jobs and keeping the world ticking over properly, then I wouldn’t begrudge them the faith and respect properly their due for it. (I can totally imagine being a solar fanboy. “Holy crap, you manage the SUN? That is so damn awesome!”) Some of the better pantheons also keep one another in line, to prevent any single god from going completely nuts all over humanity.
I can’t think of any version of a god who would deserve to be worshipped by anyone, least of all me. If some god were all benevolent and wise, it wouldn’t want or need to be worshipped. The whole concept is just too authoritarian and demeaning.
I’m too busy worshipping Captain Picard!
I wouldn’t want to worship any god for the reasons above. Would I do it from fear? No, as I wouldn’t trust any god who had already sent billions to hell for not worshipping it properly to play fair, it would be far more likely to prove it exists and then lie about what it wants us to do.
I would never worship anyone willingly. If he’s a very good god, I might be thankful to him and obey his laws, but I would never worship him. Unless I was forced to (i.e. he threaethens me with sending me to hell and stuff), in that case I would worship him, but hate him.
Okay, so I wrote this out, and it was super confusing, so I restructured it with some light philosopheese, as that’s the best way I know of to get rid of ambiguity.No you make sense, I guess I just failed fully express the half baked idea I posted.The idea I’m attempting to express in my first case is a Possible World where the teachings of the Catholic church as we know them are a completely accurate representation of the universe. Lets call this world “C-WORLD.” If you were to pull a copy of the Chatechism of the Catholic Church off the shelf and read it, everything you read could be held up as a proven, scientific fact for C-World. This means that transubstantiation actually occurs during every Mass. This means that God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, and Omnibenevolent. One of the teachings of the Catholic faith, a teaching which would not merely be a belief, but a metaphysical fact in C-World, is that morality is a (metaphysically) tangible, measurable thing. The way in which the right, or wrongness of any act (or non act) is measured is by how closely it follows the will of God. If God wants you to stand on your head, Standing on your head is morally good, standing on your feet is morally wrong.Rationally speaking, from our perspective, in our own world, both acts are morally neutral. However, the Catholic church teaches that right and wrong can only be judged by the will of God, and that all other attempts to measure right and wrong are ultimately meaningless. In our world, this is nonsense, but given the qualities of C-World, this teaching becomes not only sensible, it becomes fact. In C-World, the will of God supersedes rational thinking, only in the mind of God’s followers, or even in the mind of God. The will of God supersedes rational thinking as a fact. A fact as true in C-World as it is true in our world that the Earth orbits the Sun. I’m glad you brought up Euthyphro’s Dilemma, because that’s precisely what I was alluding to in my first post, when I said that morality would be nothing but God’s whims.For those unfamiliar, Euthyphro’s Dilemma refers to a paradox created by Divine Command Theory. Because if we accept that we owe our understanding of right and wrong to a deity, one of these things must be true:A) The deity is giving us commands which conform to some higher ideal of Good and Evil, in which case we should seek to understand those ideas independent of any deity.B) The deity is giving us commands on a whim, and we should ignore them. I seem to recall that there were more subtle alternatives, but my Ancient Philosophy is weak, and those are the relevant ones anyway.You mention that my first case (which I’ve now dubbed C-World) does not answer Euthyphro’s Dilemma. And you’re right, it doesn’t. But it doesn’t have to. Because in C-World, “Works in Mysterious Ways” is a valid argument. So, feeling I’ve now expressed sufficiently what precisely it would mean for us to exist in C-World, I pose the question to myself again:If I lived in C-World, would I worship God, or would I rebel against him?The only rational answer is that rebellion against the God of C-World is irrational. No matter how much it might offend our sensibilities, it is a NECESSARY truth of C-World that one of the following be true for us:1)There are rational arguments we have not considered which make God’s laws rational.2)There are rational arguments we have mistakenly dismissed which makes God’s laws rational.3)There are rational arguments we can not understand which makes God’s laws rational.4)Human reasoning does not work. That’s, essentially, what I was attempting to get across in Case 1 of my original comment. It’s possible that the above diatribe has errors of logic in it, but I don’t care enough about this fictional “World-C” to bother with more than a cursory proofread. I feel I’ve done a sufficient job of explaining what I wanted to say, and that’s good enough.
If the Christian god were real, I likely would worship him out of a sense of fear. I mean we are talking “do as I say or be tortured for eternity.” While my bring can’t really imagine that sort of time-scale, but I can’t think of ANYTHING that would be worth having to endure that.I can’t imagine being truly HAPPY in that case either, as I would always would be worried about the repercussions of my actions, since God would know about them. It’s like living under a forced imprisonment. Maybe I would develop Stockholm Syndrome, and come to identify with and actually like my opressor, but that is the only chance of happiness that I could see in that situation.
Daniel said:“Every time you victimized someone,” I said, “You were victimizing yourself. Every act of kindness you’ve done, you’ve done to yourself. Every happy and sad moment ever experienced by any human was, or will be, experienced by you.”“Why?” You asked me. “Why do all this?”“Because someday, you will become like me. Because that’s what you are. You’re one of my kind. You’re my child.”- – – – -There is great truth in that.My question is:If you create a universe that will create free-willed life, would you really be satisfied with a single life? In this scenario, you only get to witness a single life, timeless in its existence, go through all the possible iterations….or do you allow a multitude of free-willed entities and allow yourself to be surprised by their actions and your relationship with them?
Dae – You’ve got it exactly right.
Craig said: “If some god were all benevolent and wise, it wouldn’t want or need to be worshipped.”Exactly right. Demanding worship or any kind of sacrifice is “too authoritarian and demeaning.”
Ustice said: “While my bring can’t really imagine that sort of time-scale, but I can’t think of ANYTHING that would be worth having to endure that.”That is why there is no hell or heaven – post-mortal existence is not a reward/punishment setup.
The world would be a better place if more people saw the reasonableness of your response.
It took me a while to think about this… My new understanding of the God in the Bible is much different than the one I grew up with. If the God as a I knew when I grew up was real – I would worship him. You see, despite my Fundie background, God of the bible and “God” that we worshiped are different. While I know now that even that God was oppressive in it’s own way – I am sure that the small payment now for an eternity in Heaven would still be worth it to me. I was generally happy as a God-worshiper, and if I knew there was some proof for it I would stay that way (or return). All that being said – Christianity as I grew up with it – isn’t true… and it has been a relief to be secure in that truth. It’s only an albeit nice, but secondary thing that I don’t have to accept the rules as they were given to me.
I see your point; I think what I was trying to say is that “C-world” isn’t a possible world because it contravenes the principles of logic, so I don’t see why you’d bother considering it. It’s an interesting thought-experiment though.
Very much depends on what proof we have. I can scarcely imagine any proof that would actually confirm the christian god (he’s pretty elaborate), and even if there were proof of only him, it would still not confirm that everything said in various religions is accurate. If a floating, glowing, semi-corperal human came in front of respected scientists with indisputable perfectly accurate data from several cameras… spoke aramaic and then english saying “I am Yeshua (or Jesus)” then I would become an overnight christian. I would actually solidify my belief a few months later when there has been ample opportunity to debunk the claims. Of course i still wouldn’t be a baptist or a methodist or a catholic for the life of me. There is still an absurd amount of baggage with each religion that has little to do with whether Jesus exists.
Unless he suddenly waved his hand and made the world a better place, I wouldn’t do what he said. He’s an uncaring asshole.
There is no heaven or hell, so we can put aside those concerns.The “suffering” question – that is a picky one.In the world of Star Trek, do we understand the need and justification for the Prime Directive?
Based on the Bible, God hardly ever interferes in a major way in most people’s lives. He will however send you to hell if you don’t accept Christ as your personal saviour, and you can get out of whatever bad stuff you have done if enough people pray for you after your death. So I don’t need to worry about all my minor sins.Trouble is, God is all knowing, so if I was to “accept” Christ as my personal saviour, then he’d know I didn’t really mean it, I just didn’t want to burn in hell. Which means I’m screwed anyway.So, I’d probably accept Jesus as my personal saviour and carry on with my life as normal. Nothing else has a chance of saving me from eternal torment.If however God started to interfere with my life in serious ways, or let it be known that I’d better shape up or be cast into hell upon death then I’d probably will myself into being a Christian and make the best of life under extreme and unavoidably intractable circumstances. Hey I’m not a fool – a lifetime of being a religious lackey in return for eternal happiness and not eternal damnation. It’s easy to be a martyr for you cause until death. Bit tricky when you’re going to live a second life of eternal torment.On the other hand, a life of eternal torment might just be worth the price of being around to laugh at all the religious nutjobs in hell that thought they were doing God’s work but were just nasty bigoted assholes with a Bible.
If there were serious consequences for it, it would be pretty stupid not to.
Peter brings up a fascinating point in all this: Satan. With Satan, we actually have an example from within the mythology itself of the consequences of not worshiping God. Recall how the story from Revelation is that Satan is a fallen angel. So he was an angel, in heaven, and still rejected the worship of God. He is not an atheist – oh no. Moreover, his belief in God is not based on faith. He was in the direct presence of God and knows full well that God exists. Yet, he ends up refusing to worship God. He gets sent to rule hell, but man, it is not clear to what extent that is bad gig. Would you rather rule in hell or serve in heaven? Interestingly, if by “ruling in hell” it means that you are set the job of trying to convince the world to accept gay marriage or otherwise combating the atrocities that religious believers foist upon us, that doesn’t seem so bad.
The problem with your response, Jessica, is that you are making some assumptions about the world. What if being dead is 1,000 times better than being alive? What if heaven is just one fucking party day after another? And hell is worse than heaven because it’s just 999 times better than being alive. In other words, the eternal suffering of hell is a relative thing. Once every three months you have to do your own laundry. XD
“Based on the Bible, God hardly ever interferes in a major way in most people’s lives.”Tell that to the Canaanites.
Assuming the Judeo-Christian god…Well he did create the universe and everything in it including me. I wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t for him. Yes, he’s a major asshole who has a need for showing that he’s a tough guy and can make people suffer when he feels like it. But still… he did create me. And speaking personally, I would rather have some suffering than not exist at all. So I would thank him for my existence and if going to church once a week would make him happy (and maybe not send me to eternal suffering when it was all over) I would have to go.
Because I’m morbidly fascinated by possible worlds where human reason turns out to be a joke.
My take on this question is similar to something Sam Harris noted in “The End of Faith”. If I have proof that God, in the Judeo-Christian (JC) sense of the word exists, and assuming this entails the reliability of the Bible, I would certainly worship God. If the JC God is real, then it would stand to reason that the acts that we deem to be horrible, are in fact just our lack of complete understanding, because, let’s face it God’s the perfect one, not us. And given that God is omnipotent, omiscient, omnipresent, etc., and that there are a nice set of rules that tell me how I can spend my afterlife in Heaven, I’d conclude that He is right, I am wrong about all the stonings, and that it is certainly in my best interest to follow His rules (this is kind of like Pascal’s wager, but remember, I KNOW He’s real).
Then God still has some splaining to do.
Exactly. If the existence of an afterlife is proven (and if the nature of this existence is desirable – i.e. eternal adulation of the Creator), I’d be right there with my arse in the air, not eating pork or wearing mixed fibres.Why yes, I am indeed a coward.
The thing is. If “God” (regardless of if it’s the jackass God from the old testament or the hippy “love everyone” God from the new testament) existed, many people on here who are proposing rebelling and non-belief (Well, wouldn’t be non-belief, since we would have solid proof of God so just rebellion, which one would question what THAT would entail since most “Good Morals” are also encompassed within Judao-Christian beliefs alongside the silly ones) would be very stupid to do so.You’re all forgetting one KEY thing in your proposed rebellion (well a few things, but one big one)IT’S GOD.The creator of the universe, the one who gets to decide who lives or dies, someone who gets to choose based on personal bias who goes to heaven or not. It’s not like this is a tyrant human where if you get enough humans on your side you can beat him. You’re not in a more powerful position to demand anything from God, you’re not even close to being equal to him. It’s like an Aphid trying to put out the Sun. Your brain can’t comprehend it and your abilities are by far to minuscule to even begin the challenge and to something that will outlive you (and not even notice your passing in the grand scale of the universe) chances are you might just amuse God which if you’re lucky might get you less of a shit deal in hell. (Maybe he’ll just stick you in limbo forever or something.)So yes. If God was real and gave out a definitive rulebook of what he wants humans to do in order to regain paradise and the only other option was to burn in a torturous hell for all eternity. I wouldn’t care if you had to quack like a duck on Tuesdays and eat baby poo, it’s GOD. Your sense of morals don’t mean squat in the face of that.
I’m certain that my viewpoint has already been adequately expressed in this comment thread, but it’s my viewpoint, and I’ll state it nonetheless.Any god who exists, and in existing, has both required worship on threat of hellfire and has also refused to give remotely adequate evidence of its existence is a sadistic prick. Argue for such a god’s “mysterious will” or for its “omniscient benevolence” if you will, but the fact remains: no being deserving worship would require such on uninformed faith alone.Along with that, I agree with the scads of people who’ve put it out there that any being worthy of worship would not require it AT ALL. What would such a being do with it? Is god like Tinkerbell, that to say “I don’t believe in fairies (or god)” will bring it tumbling down? If so, this god is rather a fragile, pitiful excuse for an almighty deity.So, no. Any evidence of a “higher power” would in no way induce me to kneel before it, save perhaps out of fear, and such prostrations would not be ones of worship, but rather would be accompanied by muttered curses and the hope of freedom.
If the basic assumption is that this thing is omnipotent and omniscient than this is all nonsensical. This god would have already decided whether you would believe in/worship it since you (me, reality) are all just part of its creation. Even me typing this would be pre-arranged! Why would anyone want to even imagine such a totally annihilating thing!
Keep in mind that I’m an atheist. As I said in the opening section, I’m not convinced by the story – I’m impressed by its originality, as I hadn’t heard of this idea before.Disclaimer aside:The response to your question that seems to jump out at me is that, assuming for the sake of argument that God exists, we would still have no empirical basis to draw conclusions about God’s motives It is invalid to take my motives (“If you…”) or that of any other human and then impose these motives on God. That’s a straightforward egoistic projection, and bad theology to boot. Not that there’s any other kind of theology, though.
No – I’m woefully under read when it comes to Mr. Clemens. I’ll keep an eye out for it.
well, if it were the christian god, yeah, i would praise him. not cus he deserves it, but for the selfish reason that i don’t want to go to hell.if it were a more merciful, pantheistic, pagan-type god, i might praise it. but probably not as much as i should, cus i’m lazy.
It would be terrifying to have it proved that even you’re private thoughts were being monitored…even while you sleep Big Brother is watching, judging. There is no escape…you can’t get away, even if you die. Horrifying…
If we’re assuming that he (for example) really told the Israelites to stone a man to death for picking up sticks on Saturday, then he would be a murderous tyrant, undeserving of worship, and I would tell him so when I saw him on judgment day.
It wouldn’t change my life one lick. I believe in being kind to everyone around me, and using my talents to help humanity and myself/ my family. Whether there is a god or not would not change this. If somehow there was proof there was a god, I wouldn’t change my life at all. I believe in being a good person… and that’s all I need to believe in.
Sure, unintended consequences of intervention. But that’s not really a problem for an omniscient deity, he can intervene all he wants and will know what will happen, before it happens. And we are supposedly all his “children”, he is our “father”, or so it says in the bible, so he has more responsibility for the outcome of this grand experiment he set in motion than does the Federation for non-federation cultures.
Georgia, if god said to you kiss my ass and you can spend all eternity in happiness with your loved ones or don’t kiss my ass and you can spend all eternity in suffering I doubt that you would be telling him he’s a big meanie and you refuse to pucker up. Because we are talking about all ETERNITY. Not 20 years with a chance of parole after 12. We aren’t talking about a mean king who at the worst can torture you to death. We are talking about a mean GOD who can torture you forever! Not kissing his ass would be a sign of utter stupidity.
Fortunately, God doesn’t work that way.
Fortunately, a horrifying fiction.
People have really got to get over this capricious pagan image of God. Wow, the fundamental absoluteists have really sold you on this false image. No wonder you are so ready to trash religion – as you should when they are selling magic and anti-intellectualism.
God does not interfere – period.There are no miracles of divine intervention.God is not capricious.
1) The future is unknowable because it does not exist.2) Why create a universe that will give rise to free-willed life if all you are going to do is mess with the “experiment”? (I hope there are some lab researchers who will comment on that scenario)3) How about creating a universe that will give rise to free-willed life because it is the right thing to do? It is the right thing to do because there is “more” to the existence of free-willed life than physicality? Regardless of “more”, the physicality of free-willed life has intrinsic value that is sufficient justification for its existence.4) On you can classify all these mind-blowing scenarios as useless, meaningless, and valueless and just go on your merry way and not be bothered by any of it.I’m not sure, but I think you have a choice in there somewhere…
1) Agreed, it is a lousy methodology.2) It is all we have.3) So do we create a theology that is abusive or uplifting?
As another once-philosophy major (I swear, mom! It’s useful!) I feel obligated to chime in here…I thought about this for a while and originally I thought I would take a position like LS, that if it is the case that we’re in C-World or another world like that, then I would be forced to worship. Accepting my obligations to worship, follow rules set down by God, etc. would be the obvious choice if I wanted to have true beliefs and be ethical, because true beliefs would include religious facts and ethics would just *be* religious prescriptions. In addition, rebellion wouldn’t have a point: you’re not being *more* ethical since what is good or bad are facts about the world set by God; God’s eternal and unchanging so you’re not going to get him to stop, anyway; God is deserving of worship because that is one of those religious facts true of the world, etc.However, what you said, mcbender, takes this to another level, because it doesn’t seem like C-world or related worlds with Christian religious facts that require worship are actually possible worlds. They’re all internally inconsistent. Assuming you’re in C-world and you realize this, what the hell do you do? You both simultaneously recognize you have certain religious obligations and that they contradict each other. You’ve now become a doubter, which makes you insincere in your worship and moral activities and thus, ineligible for Heaven. You’re screwed: you either have to betray basic human reason (as LS notes) or betray God. You either have to somehow get over everything you’ve ever learned in the human realm (even things like the principle of non-contradiction!) or be condemned to eternal suffering. Have fun.(p.s. this is why we should all be glad that there is no God)
Where are you coming up with this shit? How the hell do you know how he/she/it/they work(s)? How do you know there is such a thing as god(s)? You’re making a ton of claims here, but not giving even the slightest reason why we should listen to what you’re saying.
I wouldn’t for exactly the same reasons I wouldn’t worship a monarch who was capable of doing so much good but didn’t. If we’re talking about an Abrahamic god, then it would be capable of preventing atrocities but consciously doesn’t. And I’m not talking about stopping your dog from dying, but, let’s say, stopping kids from starving to death or being murdered, etc.
Knowing God is real in the sense that evolution is real and true, implies that God is in fact real. I would argue that everyone, in this hypothetical world, would jump through His/Her hoops and perform rituals and incantations because they would demonstrably work. No atheist or agnostic could remain so in the face of evidence. When someone can call fire from the sky upon their enemies through incantation or propitiation, everyone is a believer. Our experience has shown as frauds those who claim divine power, but in a world where God is real the fire from heaven or hell could and would be called at will. Consequently science would loose it’s prominence because the incantation would be preeminent. If the magic words “in Jebus’ name” or whatever would bring something to be, those stupid enough to look for other “scientific” causes would be muggles.
Since the question posed is hypothetical, why can’t I be hypothetical about how I would behave? In this hypothetical world, I would hypothetically consider your hypothetical response to be the hypothetical coward’s way out. Besides, if Hell is a place of eternal torment, Heaven looks like a totalitarian regime of eternal ass-kissing. Descriptions of the redeemed eternally singing God’s praises remind me of North Korea. If God really does love us, why would he force us to make that choice? That’s just one of the many paradoxes to which this question leads. Here is another: If God really is as the Judeo-Xian scriptures describe him, then he created my conscience. But my conscience tells me that some of his actions are unjust. So where does that leave us?
I don’t know offhand the verse specifying death by stoning for working on the sabbath, but I’m sure it’s in there somewhere. However, that’s in the OT… In the NT, Jesus does stuff on the Sabbath. The NT is the point of Christianity. It changes the rules in the OT.
I wouldn’t worship it unless it could prove that no bigger god exists.
“Heaven looks like a totalitarian regime of eternal ass-kissing.”Perhaps, but according to the so-called good book, other than some angels that pissed off god, no one gets tossed once you’re in heaven. So once you’re in you can tell him to kiss your ass.
It is how I see it based on the experiences of others (contemporary and historical) and my own experiences. You want undeniable evidence that will withstand critical peer review or can be repeated in the lab under controlled conditions – sorry, don’t have it.Besides, all we’re really talking about here is how to best live this life. Here is how I see it: “To have a loving intimate relationship with God; to serve others by practicing generosity and hospitality; to seek justice, mercy, healing, reconciliation, rehabilitation, inclusion, and participation; and then to live non-violently without vengeance and with a cheerful fearlessness of death and worldly powers – that is the radical and the defiant message and the transformational spirit of the universal and timeless Good News.”The human race is very diverse by many different metrics. Some of us find that life is easier to deal with or that life makes more sense with an external orientation.Personally, I hope you have a blissfully ordinary life, achieve what you can without harming others, never know tragedy or great loss, find a long relationship of love and trust, and never feel compelled to ask questions about the meaning of life or the ways of the universe.No sarcastic tag lines from me, no punch lines, just my sincere hope that you have that kind of life. Peace, my friend.
No. Because even if god is real, humans are still the ones dictating what is worshipful and what is not, and interpreting a man-made bible.
So, in today’s conversation with GOD, in English, of course, I heard laughter and grumbling.”What’s up?” I asked.”Oh, just silly stuff. Have you read those blogs on Jen’s site?””Yes, GOD, I did. They all seem a bit off base.””TOTALLY. They are so stiff-necked. Thousands of years to get it right, and they don’t, yet.””You gonna blast them again, GOD?” I asked.”HAH! I do not need to. They do it to themselves.””Oh,” I demurred, “Well, have a nice day.”GOD laughed so hard that it began to rain — just a little — just enough to leave water spots on the windshield.I really should not talk to GOD while driving the car.
By the way, GOD really likes Jen.
Craig asked the question, “Where are you coming up with this shit? How the hell do you know how he/she/it/they work(s)? How do you know there is such a thing as god(s)? You’re making a ton of claims here, but not giving even the slightest reason why we should listen to what you’re saying.”Part of my initial response was, “It is how I see it based on the experiences of others (contemporary and historical) and my own experiences. You want undeniable evidence that will withstand critical peer review or can be repeated in the lab under controlled conditions – sorry, don’t have it.”I am going to revise that initial response.Globally, there is approximately 3 millennium of anecdotal evidence that teaches a 5-fold lesson:1) There is “more” to the universe than just the physics and chemistry of the universe.2) Living in awareness of the “more” is important.3) Acceptance of free-will is partial acceptance of the “more”.4) How life is lived is important, especially in regards to how we live with each other, how well we treat one another.5) There is always more to know about the universe and the “more”. “Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known.” (Carl Sagan)“We are made of star stuff.” (Carl Sagan) A star had to die and die as a super nova for you to exist. I hypothesize that a galaxy-worth of stars had to die, a galaxy-worth of super-novae had to explosively obliterate themselves for life, as we know it, to exist.That should fill you with mind-blowing awe and a combination of specialness and humility. How does a purely mechanistic universe create free-willed life – life that can discover and contemplate its cataclysmic origins, experience a sense of awe and beauty, and display an attitude of generosity, hospitality, and forgiveness under conditions that are brutal and horrific?For at least 3,000 years, the answer has been that there is “more” to the universe than just the physics and chemistry of the universe.
I started to read you recent post to GOD, but was interrupted by, “I know, I know. Good stuff.”Who am I to argue?”Just call me Ms. More.”I asked, “Are you a girl?”Loud laughter, but no rain.
Why do you keep saying 3 millenia? Humans have been building civilizations for nearly 10 millenia, and worshipping gods or something similar for something like 70 millenia based on the recent altar/temple discovered in Europe. What changed 3 millenia ago? You also don’t mention that physics/chemistry have only existed to us for about 200 years in their modern conceptions. We’ve had some inkling of what they were for about 3 millenia, but we’ve only had good grasps on them for a couple of centuries at most.There is nothing more to the universe than the physics and chemistry of the universe, you just can’t conceive of the grandeur *of* the physics and chemistry of the universe.
Chemistry and physics, yes, but how about biology?OMG!That’s it.I mean, IT!~ ~ Jen, do you understand this?
Doug, it’s not the fundamentalist assholes who have painted this view of God. It’s the Bible which paints this view of God, you know, His holy, infallible word. The fundies are right, with their fire and brimstone tyrant. The what his Holy word tells us he’s like. You can try to sell us some ineffable mysterious, all encompassing universal spirit. But that’s not the God that appears in the Bible.I tend towards the view expressed above (or maybe it’s in a previous thread) that any transcendent being capable of creating this universe will be so far above us that it will oblivious as to whether or not we worship it.Or we could all just be characters in some transcendent uber-teens game of civilisation. :-)Either way, wasting my life in the here and now worshipping such a being seems to me to be utterly pointless.
It’s not out of self-pride. It’s because this God realizes that basing your life, trust, values, expectations, hopes, etc in other people (incl. yourself) will ultimately disappoint you. People are fallible, and no life centered around people will result in true happiness and fulfillment. That’s why God tells people to focus on Him. It’s because He cannot fail, and He knows best, so that whatever happens is part of the plan, and not a disappointment.Not creeptastic–smart thinking.
More like “Believe in God: get +∞ hp””Pray to God: recharge spirit””Read Bible: get +20 wisdom, +20 intelligence, +15 logic””Evangelize: get +12 treasure in Heaven”
That’s not necessary. Eating pork and wearing mixed fibers were part of the ceremonial law given to the Israelites in order to maintain national solidarity when they were building their nation. We’re under a covenant of Grace, now, and the ceremonial laws need not apply.That’s not to say that the civil legal laws don’t apply–they do.
He doesn’t, though. You are free to not worship Him if you want.If you want to pay the price for your own sin instead of accepting Jesus’ payment on your behalf, hey, be irrational.
You write as if you’re Jewish, but refer to God as a female. Are you a fundy atheist?God doesn’t require sheep sacrifice, by the way.Apparently you prefer a Deistic god. How would you know if one such god existed?
I wonder what makes you think God is psychopathic. Could it be that you’ve fallen sway to popular appeal to the various defeats/destructions of Pharaoh, Canaan, Amalek, Pre-Diluvia, etc? >>All the suffering allowed by a supposed all-powerful, all-knowing, all-benevolent being? Please.<<That’s why it’s key to understand the Creation/Gospel message. The suffering was never intended to be a part of the Creation. It was initially perfect, with no sin, death, pain or suffering of any kind. When man sinned, it brought death into the world. (After all, who would want to live for eternity in a world of pain and suffering? Death (and a short lifespan) is a blessing, because it makes this time of trial very short). As a result, we have all the evil, pain and death in the world that we have today, but not because of God’s fault. Because of Adam’s, and by extension, our, fault. But Jesus lived a sinless life, so that He could pay the price for our sin (the price thereof being death), so that we can accept his sacrifice (payment on our behalf, if you will) for our sin, and not have to endure an eternal painful separation from God.The Problem of Evil is not a problem for the God who Created this Universe. A deistic god, perhaps, but not Yahweh.>>Even if God could give me a good explanation for allowing all the suffering, I still wouldn’t<<I just mediated that explanation. Why would you not?>>I figure God gave me this brain and the inclination to use it, so how could he be mad that I think for myself?<<“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.” Also read Romans 1:20. The fact is that you may be using your brain, but not to its full potential.>> if he really does send people to eternal torment in hell for the sole reason that they don’t worship him<<The only reason people go there is because they want to. Are you even listening to yourself? You would rather go to hell than worship God. Do you think He’s going to undercut you and force you to go to heaven if you don’t want to? He only gives people what they want: an eternal separation from God.>> even if they have otherwise lived perfectly good lives, <<Nobody is good. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Everyone has done evil. We all deserve hell. So this objection is unfounded.>>not deserving of worship.<<It’s got nothing to do with ego, it’s got to do with knowing what’s best for us. If you center your life around people, fallible men and women, then you will always be disappointed. God commands worship simply so that we won’t worship something else, foolishly, and reap destruction. Whereas other people let you down, God knows what’s best for you, He knows the future, and He has the power to make it all happen. He asks you to worship Him only because He knows that you will be fulfilled by it, and not any other way.I hope this has helped you see it differently. ~EriK
I am Jewish. I was raised Jewish and despite my atheism or agnosticism, I still like going to synagogue now and then. If following arbitrary rules wasn’t fun, we wouldn’t have games like Simon Says. I’m perfectly fine following rules as long as I’m the only person I inconvenience with them, or other people playing the same game. (So I don’t actually follow all the laws of Koshroot)For Judaism, it doesn’t really seem to make a difference. None of the praying we did was for G-d to change anything, it was all just ‘thank you’s (except for once a year, asking to live another year, and since no one was under the impression that the only people who died were those who didn’t ask for another year, it’s really more of a “well, since we’re here, we figure it couldn’t hurt to ask”)So if I believed in a G-d, well it’s not a god I would pray to. I tend to think about G-d as a drinking buddy. I gripe about the parts of my life that aren’t going well, the things that I could do without but have no control over. I don’t expect G-d to do anything about it, but complaining sometimes just helps me cope. Sometimes G-d gets pretty drunk and starts making up wild stories, “This one time, I can’t remember when, this whole city just pissed me off, so I killed them all, and anyone who looked at the city turned into a pillar of salt! And then the three people who lived through the incident got drunk and had some taboo sex.” That’s when you know G-d has had too much to drink.