That’s what a new bus ad in Bloomington, Indiana will say in response to the Indiana Atheist Bus campaign’s “You can be good without God” advertisement. It looks like this (sorry, couldn’t find a bigger image):
I can’t find any official website for it, but there is a facebook group with over a 1,000 people with this lovely intro:
THIS IS A GROUP DESIGNED FOR CHRISTIANS TO STAND UP FOR CHRIST. IT IS TIME TO STAND UP! GOD LAID THIS ON MY HEART TO STAND UP AGAINST THE ATHEIST MESSAGE YOU CAN BE GOOD WITHOUT GOD. IT IS TRUE THAT YOU CAN BE GOOD WITHOUT GOD BUT YOU CANNOT BE SAVED WITHOUT JESUS. SO IN A LOVING WAY LETS SPREAD THE MESSAGE WITH THIS AD ALL OVER THE WORLD. THE ATHEIST GROUPS HAVE BOUGHT ADS TO GO ON THE BLOOMINGTON TRANSIT BUSSES. SO I HAVE PURCHASED ADS TO GO ON THE SAME BUSSES.
Reason #28 you know you’re dealing with a fundy: Inability to turn off caps-lock.
I want to make it completely clear that I support their right to make this ad. Unlike some Christians in Indiana who would love to see the rights of groups they don’t agree with squashed, I believe in supporting free speech, even if I disagree with it.
But in addition to upholding the freedom of speech, I think this is important for another reason: it helps our cause. What kind of message is this sign sending? Their “God” is so petty that he doesn’t care if good people rot in hell because he has such a ginormous ego that accepting him is more important than anything else. Does that really sound like a God you want to worship, one with the mentality of a four year old? This sign is just going to make devoted Christians pat themselves on the back for showing those sneaky atheists what’s what…but that’s it. If anything, more moderate people may realize how silly that belief is and start questioning Christianity even more.
Thanks, Hoosier Christians!
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The really annoying thing about these kinds of signs is that you'll never see an atheist group demanding it be taken down, or refusing to enter a nearby store, or drive a bus. And yet, for the myriad comparatively innocuous ads that don't say anything (good or bad) about Christians, we see a media orgy and a mass of popular dissent. I don't get it.
You're right, though. It does prove our point. And it gives us a nice basis for comparison when future ads are challenged.
The really annoying thing about these kinds of signs is that you’ll never see an atheist group demanding it be taken down, or refusing to enter a nearby store, or drive a bus. And yet, for the myriad comparatively innocuous ads that don’t say anything (good or bad) about Christians, we see a media orgy and a mass of popular dissent. I don’t get it.You’re right, though. It does prove our point. And it gives us a nice basis for comparison when future ads are challenged.
Well, they're rather allowed to do it. So let's all advertise on buses. Works for me.
As an aside, CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR AWESOME!!!
Well, they’re rather allowed to do it. So let’s all advertise on buses. Works for me.As an aside, CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR AWESOME!!!
Have you ever noticed in life how there are a lot of situations where you either get A or B but not both? Well, it’s the same with spiritual realities. For reasons that have nothing to do with God’s ego (Any Being capable of creating the universe AND who is willing to live as a human being is not struggling with ego needs), you can have heaven or hell; if you choose one you will not get the other. That’s just life.
And if that’s true, it would be awful to not warn people about it.
Have you ever noticed in life how there are a lot of situations where you either get A or B but not both? Well, it’s the same with spiritual realities. For reasons that have nothing to do with God’s ego (Any Being capable of creating the universe AND who is willing to live as a human being is not struggling with ego needs), you can have heaven or hell; if you choose one you will not get the other. That’s just life. And if that’s true, it would be awful to not warn people about it.
Makarios, if God exists, he makes the rules. He decides what makes a person go to hell or not. The fact that you can be a wonderful, kind person yet still be tortured for all eternity just because you don't believe in him…that is petty.
Makarios, if God exists, he makes the rules. He decides what makes a person go to hell or not. The fact that you can be a wonderful, kind person yet still be tortured for all eternity just because you don’t believe in him…that is petty.
The fact that you can be a wonderful, kind person yet still be tortured for all eternity just because you don't believe in him…that is petty.
Well, I'd say rather "horrifically cruel, unjust and loathsome" – but "petty" works too, I suppose.
The fact that you can be a wonderful, kind person yet still be tortured for all eternity just because you don’t believe in him…that is petty.Well, I’d say rather “horrifically cruel, unjust and loathsome” – but “petty” works too, I suppose.
To add to what Jen said, to think that you can live a violent, evil life and get it all washed away by saying, "I repent!" is rather distasteful to me as well.
To add to what Jen said, to think that you can live a violent, evil life and get it all washed away by saying, “I repent!” is rather distasteful to me as well.
I wonder what they make of the parable of the sheep and the goats?
I wonder what they make of the parable of the sheep and the goats?
This gets media attention to pander to the kind of person who insists to me that Darwin converted on his deathbed, as if that meant anything. (It's also, according to Mr. Darwin's own family, untrue.)
This gets media attention to pander to the kind of person who insists to me that Darwin converted on his deathbed, as if that meant anything. (It’s also, according to Mr. Darwin’s own family, untrue.)
It would be inexcusable for any human being to align themselves with, let alone worship, a hypothetical being that would create a universe which appeared to have required no teleological intervention whatsoever, and who would then consign good people to eternal punishment for failing to believe in its existence, despite the utter absence of any compelling evidence for its existence. How could it be paradise, to spend an eternity with the sycophants of such a monster, eternally toadying, while certain that people who, by any measure, were good, were eternally suffering in exactly the same way and to the extent that you purportedly weren't? How could it be paradise to know that good people were being tortured for eternity by your Eternal Host? Pimps for such a Kozmic Perp are not people who know how to think things through.
It would be inexcusable for any human being to align themselves with, let alone worship, a hypothetical being that would create a universe which appeared to have required no teleological intervention whatsoever, and who would then consign good people to eternal punishment for failing to believe in its existence, despite the utter absence of any compelling evidence for its existence. How could it be paradise, to spend an eternity with the sycophants of such a monster, eternally toadying, while certain that people who, by any measure, were good, were eternally suffering in exactly the same way and to the extent that you purportedly weren’t? How could it be paradise to know that good people were being tortured for eternity by your Eternal Host? Pimps for such a Kozmic Perp are not people who know how to think things through.
Wow. Sometimes I think its like, there is a god, and he put christians in this world to amuse me.
Wow. Sometimes I think its like, there is a god, and he put christians in this world to amuse me.
Ooh, do we get proselytes here? Nifty.
Ooh, do we get proselytes here? Nifty.
I'm not a christian, but as far as I understood it the idea that one has to be saved by Jesus to go to heaven is based upon the theological argument that god's moral standard is so high nobody ever can (or apart from Jesus ever has) lived up to it.
So surely their ad should read:
"You can't be good (with or without god). But it's OK, Jesus will save you!!"
I’m not a christian, but as far as I understood it the idea that one has to be saved by Jesus to go to heaven is based upon the theological argument that god’s moral standard is so high nobody ever can (or apart from Jesus ever has) lived up to it.So surely their ad should read:”You can’t be good (with or without god). But it’s OK, Jesus will save you!!”
That's pretty much right, Rob. That's why I find this new ad to be amusing and a sort of victory through the concession the Christian is trying to make.
Outside the evangelicals though you do have the Roman Catholics who, at least insofar as they are Thomists recognize the possibility of moral non-Christians (known affectionately as "virtuous pagans"). On Aquinas's thinking all the virtues are achievable by non-Christians except the "supernatural" virtues of faith, hope, and love.
That’s pretty much right, Rob. That’s why I find this new ad to be amusing and a sort of victory through the concession the Christian is trying to make.Outside the evangelicals though you do have the Roman Catholics who, at least insofar as they are Thomists recognize the possibility of moral non-Christians (known affectionately as “virtuous pagans”). On Aquinas’s thinking all the virtues are achievable by non-Christians except the “supernatural” virtues of faith, hope, and love.
@Veritas: Yep, that would be the blindingly upright system of morals called scapegoating, so well explicated with disdain by our always-lookin-a-wee-bit-too-bloated-from-that-last-swig-of-scotch-at-9-in-the-morning contrarian figure, Mr. Hitchens:Scapegoat Morality
@Veritas: Yep, that would be the blindingly upright system of morals called scapegoating, so well explicated with disdain by our always-lookin-a-wee-bit-too-bloated-from-that-last-swig-of-scotch-at-9-in-the-morning contrarian figure, Mr. Hitchens:Scapegoat Morality
You can be good without God, but if you openly reject his son, he's gonna getcha!
On their facebook page they've posted a lot of self congratulatory nonsense about how we'll get "all up in arms" and that we are free to make our own ad if we dont like theirs.
It is funny how they assume we are just like them!
They can hang themselves with their own rope. This is a ridiculous ad that effectively says "Our God is arbitrary and unjust – Fear Him" ;)
On their facebook page they’ve posted a lot of self congratulatory nonsense about how we’ll get “all up in arms” and that we are free to make our own ad if we dont like theirs.It is funny how they assume we are just like them! They can hang themselves with their own rope. This is a ridiculous ad that effectively says “Our God is arbitrary and unjust – Fear Him” ;)
@Makarios: What situations in life offer only an A or a B? And, even if given that, in what way does that establish the link between "life reality" and "spiritual reality"? Further, even given THAT, where is your support that A and B are heaven and hell? And where is your support that living the life of a Christian is a choice for heaven, and living the life of anything else is a choice for hell?
Your analogy works great for those who accept all those things — such as a congregation — but it's a rather lame excuse when you're essentially just coming off as trying to scare people into believing in God.
@Makarios: What situations in life offer only an A or a B? And, even if given that, in what way does that establish the link between “life reality” and “spiritual reality”? Further, even given THAT, where is your support that A and B are heaven and hell? And where is your support that living the life of a Christian is a choice for heaven, and living the life of anything else is a choice for hell?Your analogy works great for those who accept all those things — such as a congregation — but it’s a rather lame excuse when you’re essentially just coming off as trying to scare people into believing in God.
I'm actually waiting for the Muslims to bomb the Jesus buses. That sign must be way more offensive to them than it ever could be to me.
I’m actually waiting for the Muslims to bomb the Jesus buses. That sign must be way more offensive to them than it ever could be to me.
I am a Christian, and I agree that the sign is stupid. It takes a hugely complex theological principle and tries to condense it into a single sentence – thus destroying all the actual meaning and significance of it. Nobody is going to be Saved because of that sign.
I am going to assume this is not the place for a deep theological lesson, so I'll keep quiet. I do just want to respond to Veritas' statement:
…to think that you can live a violent, evil life and get it all washed away by saying, "I repent!" is rather distasteful to me as well.
It is not by simply saying, "I repent!" but by actually repenting in one's heart that one can be cleansed of sin.
Consider this – has there ever been anything you've done that you later realised was morally wrong, or had wronged someone? You would surely hope to be forgiven for that wrong (though you might accept you deserved some punishment first). If you would want that forgiveness for yourself, would you deny it to others? If not, how many times do you forgive? If it is right to forgive the first wrong, why not the second? Why not the 500th? (Admittedly, Jesus said "70 times 7", which is only 490, but he was making a principle, not setting a limit on forgiveness!) Maybe as humans we would say at some point, "this person who has wronged me does not mean the repentance" but God sees into our hearts and knows that we mean it each time, and if a person who has led "a violent, evil life" truly repents and feels in their heart the pain of knowing they have done wrong, then God will forgive them.
I am a Christian, and I agree that the sign is stupid. It takes a hugely complex theological principle and tries to condense it into a single sentence – thus destroying all the actual meaning and significance of it. Nobody is going to be Saved because of that sign.I am going to assume this is not the place for a deep theological lesson, so I’ll keep quiet. I do just want to respond to Veritas’ statement:…to think that you can live a violent, evil life and get it all washed away by saying, “I repent!” is rather distasteful to me as well.It is not by simply saying, “I repent!” but by actually repenting in one’s heart that one can be cleansed of sin.Consider this – has there ever been anything you’ve done that you later realised was morally wrong, or had wronged someone? You would surely hope to be forgiven for that wrong (though you might accept you deserved some punishment first). If you would want that forgiveness for yourself, would you deny it to others? If not, how many times do you forgive? If it is right to forgive the first wrong, why not the second? Why not the 500th? (Admittedly, Jesus said “70 times 7”, which is only 490, but he was making a principle, not setting a limit on forgiveness!) Maybe as humans we would say at some point, “this person who has wronged me does not mean the repentance” but God sees into our hearts and knows that we mean it each time, and if a person who has led “a violent, evil life” truly repents and feels in their heart the pain of knowing they have done wrong, then God will forgive them.
SnowdropExplodes,
If I can be good without god (ie god is not the only source of morality), then I can be moral living a just life and don't believe in him at the same time.
But if I don't believe in him, I'll go to hell anyway even though I have nothing to repent of (so there's nothing to forgive because I've been good).
You may say that disbelief itself is immoral or maybe that we all do wrong sometimes (that's right) and god is the only one who can forgive us. Well, then you cannot be good without god. Either he sets the rules of morality or he got no right to judge anyone.
I think all this is a product of a childish, superhero-like view of god. A big boss sat in a throne and all.
SnowdropExplodes,If I can be good without god (ie god is not the only source of morality), then I can be moral living a just life and don’t believe in him at the same time.But if I don’t believe in him, I’ll go to hell anyway even though I have nothing to repent of (so there’s nothing to forgive because I’ve been good).You may say that disbelief itself is immoral or maybe that we all do wrong sometimes (that’s right) and god is the only one who can forgive us. Well, then you cannot be good without god. Either he sets the rules of morality or he got no right to judge anyone.I think all this is a product of a childish, superhero-like view of god. A big boss sat in a throne and all.
I'm picturing a new bus ad that says: "You can be good without God. You can be saved without Jesus [from being crushed by this bus] – just look both ways before crossing the street."
Then not only would the ad promote atheism, but it would also save people.
I’m picturing a new bus ad that says: “You can be good without God. You can be saved without Jesus [from being crushed by this bus] – just look both ways before crossing the street.”Then not only would the ad promote atheism, but it would also save people.
Snowdrop Explodes: Sure, I've done things I regret terribly and sincerely. But 1) there is no sensible reason why Jesus or anyone else had to die on a cross in order for me to be forgiven; as Jesus himself said (and you know this, because you quoted him), it is only necessary for the person I've hurt to forgive me. If that person were to say, "Well, okay, I'll forgive you, but only if you sacrifice your child over a slow-burning fire and you ask forgivenness in his name," I'd know I was dealing with a very disturbed person, and I'd have to get along without their forgivenness.
2) Nothing, including the death of Jesus on the cross, can make the pain I've caused others (or that they have caused me) go away. Forgivenness doesn't take away the injury. (Magical thinking isn't limited to Christians, of course — a lot of atheists also rely on it — but I don't take it seriously as an aid to life.) I think that's a good thing, though: learning to live with the things we've done, and try to make them better. Not with a view to perfection, but just living as human beings must live.
I'm afraid your argument simply misses the mark. That being said, I support the presence of both messages on our buses, though as an atheist I find the atheist bus slogans more embarrassing than anything else. As an atheist, I do not think one can be perfectly good at all, without or without gods. But I suppose that is another question.
Snowdrop Explodes: Sure, I’ve done things I regret terribly and sincerely. But 1) there is no sensible reason why Jesus or anyone else had to die on a cross in order for me to be forgiven; as Jesus himself said (and you know this, because you quoted him), it is only necessary for the person I’ve hurt to forgive me. If that person were to say, “Well, okay, I’ll forgive you, but only if you sacrifice your child over a slow-burning fire and you ask forgivenness in his name,” I’d know I was dealing with a very disturbed person, and I’d have to get along without their forgivenness.2) Nothing, including the death of Jesus on the cross, can make the pain I’ve caused others (or that they have caused me) go away. Forgivenness doesn’t take away the injury. (Magical thinking isn’t limited to Christians, of course — a lot of atheists also rely on it — but I don’t take it seriously as an aid to life.) I think that’s a good thing, though: learning to live with the things we’ve done, and try to make them better. Not with a view to perfection, but just living as human beings must live.I’m afraid your argument simply misses the mark. That being said, I support the presence of both messages on our buses, though as an atheist I find the atheist bus slogans more embarrassing than anything else. As an atheist, I do not think one can be perfectly good at all, without or without gods. But I suppose that is another question.
You will know they are "Christians" by their angst.
You will know they are “Christians” by their angst.
God is good. substitute God in for good in the ad. You can be God without God. Your ignorant and dumb