There’s this long thread on Tumblr about how men are starved for sexual attention in casual settings. I realize the thread is hard to follow so I’ll summarize.
The argument goes that straight men have very little opportunity to be sexual objects rather than sexual subjects. Most male fashion isn’t geared towards it. There’s some speculation that men send out dick pics because they want any sort of sexual attention even if it’s negative. There’s mention of a journalist who sent out vagina pics on Bumble, and was surprised by the positive reactions from almost all the men. Men have trouble empathizing with women complaining about catcalling, because most men have literally never received a compliment from a stranger, and frankly it sounds like a welcome experience.
By the way, I personally do not want to receive sexual attention in casual settings. I also dislike compliments. So please don’t take this as a request.
Although the discussion is about straight men, I think it’s also key to understanding (western) gay male culture. Gay male culture reacts against these tendencies in straight culture. Many gay male spaces aren’t just places where men can be attracted to men, they are also places where men can draw attention to their own attractiveness.
A lot of the image of gay male culture is basically those topless guys that dance on top of pride parade floats. Have you ever thought why that is? Obviously straight men can dance topless in the streets too. But straight men have a culture where sexually objectifying men is weird, and gay men have a culture where it’s not.
Of course there are problems with this gay counterculture of objectifying men. Body image disorders and eating disorders are fairly common. I’m always hammering on about high rates of sexual violence. And while being a sexual object may be empowering for some gay men, it isn’t for everyone. Gay male culture looms large for queer people of all sorts, and it just isn’t tailored to serving the needs of, say, lesbians, trans women, or aces. A lot of gay men of color or with disabilities might feel poorly served as well.
In the sexual object/subject distinction, we often think of the subject as having power over the object. But it appears that some people like to be sexual objects, and will fill that role if they have the power to do so. It is interesting that in straight culture, despite men having so much power, they seem to have deprived themselves of the power to be sexual objects. Feel free to speculate why that is.
I doubt it’s completely unconnected to the way adults push boys and girls towards “gender-appropriate” toys from birth. They soon learn that there are boys’ toys and girls’ toys, and not to touch the other sort if they know what is good for them.
It seems to me that this condition, “casual settings”, is a bit of a red herring. I’m not quite sure how it is being defined here. You seem to be using it in the sense of “not settings people go to specifically to engage in sexualised behaviour”.
Which makes people who desire sexual interactions in such settings somewhat maladaptive – people who desire sexual interactions in places that aren’t intended for sexual interactions. Not maladaptive in the sense that sexual interactions may, coincidentally, occur in such places, but maladaptive in the sense that they desire such interactions specifically from such places, and get frustrated, disappointed or upset that they aren’t getting any. It seems rather like someone going to the supermarket and getting frustrated that nobody tries to sell them a car.
Of course, the problem might be that there aren’t any places they can go where sexualised behaviour is expected. Places that have been set aside for it and where the social norms are different. Or there are such places – bars, nightclubs, brothels etc. – but they do not feel comfortable in them and do not want to go. If this is the case then are we seeing them turn to “casual” venues and behave inappropriately there simply because there isn’t a more appropriate place and they feel they have to make at least some kind of effort? I know that when I feel lonely and isolated in a social sense, which is very often, I will sometimes talk to complete strangers about emotional things most people will only talk to close friends about – I’d like to talk to my friends, but since I hardly see them I can’t. I’m often told this is highly inappropriate, and people are often very uncomfortable with it. Is this issue a sexual version of that?
I think it might be. I sometimes feel the desire to be sexually attractive too – to have people find me sexually interesting. Sometimes the desire arises on its own, sometimes it arises out of jealousy – I see other people attracting this kind of attention and feel jealous and inadequate and ugly by comparison. But, of course, nobody ever has found me sexually attractive. Nobody ever has shown an interest in me in that way. So I guess I’m working on a fantasy of what having such attention would be like, not from knowledge. And I do sometimes end up going to the places set aside for this – bars, clubs, saunas etc., with the express desire to be found attractive. And it is very disheartening and depressing when I am inevitably overlooked and ignored by everyone present. The sense of frustration and depression is pretty much identical to the frustration and depression caused by loneliness, by my friends ignoring me, not answering my messages, doing things with other people and leaving me bereft of any social interaction. I think they probably come from the same place.
As for how the difference between straight culture and gay culture interacts with this, I don’t really know. Is it the same feeling, on the one hand, to desire validation from being sexually attractive but to have no avenue for getting that, and on the other to desire validation, to have an avenue, but still not to get it? To put it another way, straight men are acculturated into not expecting to be given compliments on their appearance. Straight men are acculturated into not being thought of as sexually attractive and not placing value in it. Is that perhaps helpful in preventing them from developing unreasonable expectations in this regard that will never be fulfilled? To what extent is a desire to feel sexually attractive something people will develop regardless of acculturation?
@cartomancer,
I am fairly sure that this is not true of anybody.
@cartomancer,
“Casual settings” is a phrase I used, and you can check the original thread to see how they talk about it. The OP’s phrasing was “if we’re not actually having sex at that moment”. I’m not sure how that should be interpreted.
Looking for sexualized attention in spaces not specifically designated for that–yeah I can see that as being maladaptive. Especially since there are some people who don’t want sexualized attention, and there’s no way to tell for sure whether any given person is in group A or B. It sure seems bad to place all women in group A and all men in group B though.
OK. How about this? Men (gay or straight) objectify the object of their desire, women (gay or straight) don’t..
This seems to fit the available evidence. Obviously it’s a massive generalisation/simplification, but isn’t this whole post, a bit?
And you wonder where PUAs, MGTOW and Red Pill culture come from?
It’s true that in “straight culture”, men have the power, should they wish to use it, to force their attentions on an unwilling woman. We call that “harassment”, “sexual assault” and “rape”, depending on how far they push it. We therefore have power in the same sense that we have power to shoot and kill people who annoy us, and to take anything we like the look of that isn’t nailed down. Which is to say that we don’t have that power in any real sense unless we’re fearless entitled sociopaths, and the vast overwhelming majority of us aren’t.
Not quite true. Take a look through any copy of GQ or similar straight men’s aspirational magazine, especially the ads. Those watches, aftershaves, razors, cars, shirts etc. are being sold to us with the idea that “You too can be this – sexually desirable to women”. Omega don’t give George Clooney free watches because men want to have his personality.
@sonofrojblake,
Additional evidence: m/m slash and doujinshi are dominated by female audiences. But granted, there could be statistical differences, which would get amplified through the usual cultural assumptions about the uniformity of desires.
You know, I had been thinking the same thing in response to the OP, especially when it started talking about men’s clothing. I think maybe the argument doesn’t apply to the advertising world or celebrity world, for whatever reason.
I’m not sure whether you’re saying that’s evidence for or against what I said, but it did get me thinking that what I said wasn’t quite enough. Permit me to reformulate:
Men (gay or straight) objectify the object of their desire, women (gay or straight) want context.
Slash fic is context. Fifty Shades of Grey is context. Context is hugely profitable.
Meanwhile, men’s preferences are killing the porn industry. No more fast-forwarding/rewinding to the good bit – just stream the desired few moments from one of the multitude of sites offering it for free.
As a dude I’ve definitely recieved compliments from strangers, and sometimes as uncomfortable as street catcalling, so in general I can say I don’t enjoy public harassment, despite not being able to equate my (obviously rare) experiences with that of women. The worst things I’ve experience from women were a strange woman trying to hug and kiss me in a public bathroom corridor and having another woman grind on my thigh when dancing in a nightclub. Being able to calmly but firmly reject that physical contact and not feeling in danger at the time as well as rarity of these experiences means it’s not really a problem for me, but I can see how these things are definitely not “compliments” or “positive” sexual attention.
The times when I felt positive attention was towards women friends, acquaintances or schoolmates, not random public sexual objectification and I enjoy occasionally being a bit exhibitionistic when dancing, but usually don’t consider it in terms of sexual attraction, more “showing off” or “public performance”, aslo because I find these things more funny and silly than sexy.
=8)-DX
With all due respect, this seems like an invitation to be fractally wrong.
“The more I learn the less I know,” is even more true about sexuality. I’m pretty solid on the norm that sex should be consensual, but that’s about it, and I have no small few doubts about even that because I don’t fully understand consent.
For example, I just can’t draw any conclusions about sexually aggressive behavior in gay bars, a topic you’ve brought up in the past, Siggy: is the claim of implied consent legitimate or not? However, since I’m not gay, and I don’t go to gay bars, my lack of understanding on this topic is probably unimportant.
I’m hopelessly at sea. Personally, I avoid speculation, try to help anyone in distress who asks for my help, and otherwise mind my own business and do my best to not be a jackass.
Men in heterosexual clubs wear what they need to to get what they want. If shirtless worked, they’d be doing it.