The great thing about religion is it offers certainty without the hard part -- thinking.
StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!says
I think you can respect religious *people* and their right to think differently -- treat them kindly and with fairness -- without respecting the religions ie. the silly dogmas and barbaric texts they believe in maybe?
Treat people well whatever they believe but attack the evils in some religious ideologies and also some harmful cultural practices eg. FGM, rape culture, etc ..
Make sense or too hairsplitting ya reckon?
dukeofomniumsays
I like to say that if everyone really respected each others’ religions, there’d be no such word as “missionary”.
Francisco Bacopasays
No respect. Question them. Ridicule them. Do this whenever you have the power to do so because they are too weak to retaliate. If they can hurt you, fight by more subtle means.
The problem of religious people can never be solved until secular people have control over social influence and the instruments of power to force them to comply with our wishes.
You have to remember. Our enemy has a dulled moral sense and does not believe in right and wrong. For the hardcore fundie things are right and wrong only because God can kick our asses. They are pure authoritarians and can only be controlled when we can make them fear us more than they fear their imaginary God. We owe them no respect and no quarter. They are adults who believe in Santa Clause.
But I think the more fearsome enemy is the people who “believe in belief”. They are confused ans sometimes kindly people who give aid and comfort to the enemy. How do we bring these sniviling collaborators to our side? I think I can’t do it as I hate them more than the fundies who broke my jaw. Yes, the people who beat my face with twirling batons such that I required medical treatments over several years including two surgeries because “believe in belief” types, liberals all, said I had it coming to me. I was 7 years old and said that baby-souls didn’t pre-exist in heaven until God gave them to their parents, but rather that human offspring were the same as puppies, kittens, and baby hamsters, and that God might just be a story for things we didn’t understand. That’s how I was raised. I was warned not to talk about it. But I did. I got my jaw broken. I was tested by the school psychologist and tested for every form or retardation. I was transfered to the “retard gulag” for a year. Tested out in fourth grade, but I was always “retard” and still got hit.
Secular people can never be free until we have the power to put religious kids into the gulag. We need the power to put faith into the DSM. We need the power to have police stop the few cars that still dare to have religious stickers on their bumpers. We need the power who gives religious reasons for their crimes to death
We need the power over them that they have had over us. But we will not use it as cruely as they did. We are better than they are. There will be no executions. There will be no special education gulags. We are better than they are and can do better when we have power over them.
I think you can respect religious *people* and their right to think differently
Why? Is respect due to stupid fucking dumbass bullshit and the people who chose to accept it as real? At best, they’re victims. At worse it’s self-inflicted stupidity. What’s to respect?
PatrickGsays
First, I want to express my sympathy for what happened to you in school. I have no words for how awful your experience was. No child should have their jaw broken or be beaten in the way you describe.
Second, I do want to express some disagreement with what you’ve said, particularly this portion:
Secular people can never be free until we have the power to put religious kids into the gulag. We need the power to put faith into the DSM. We need the power to have police stop the few cars that still dare to have religious stickers on their bumpers. We need the power who gives religious reasons for their crimes to death
If we’ve learned anything from the Great Atheist Meltdown, it’s that people who don’t believe in god(s) can be just as shitty, ill-informed, and generally horrible to other people as people who do.
Thus, I completely disagree with:
But we will not use it as cruely as they did. We are better than they are.
Religious belief is one axis of irrational behavior. It’s not the only one.
Let me close by saying that I’m all for questioning people’s irrational beliefs, particularly in situations where that belief is dominant. People should be asked to question those beliefs. But I can’t share your optimism that secular people will by default never abuse their power.
We have too many counterexamples.
Axxyaansays
@ Marcus Ranum #2.1
Why?
Because they’re human. And all humans have their irrational quirks. The fact that we specifically know about the irrational quirks of religious people, doesn’t mean they deserve less respect than those of who we don’t know their irrational quirks.
steve oberskisays
People deserve respect, ideas and institutions do not.
To the extent that people hide behind their ideas they are bound to conflate disrespect for their ideas with disrespect for themselves.
But that’s their problem, not mine.
left0ver1undersays
The only “respect” that people deserve for their religion is the right to have it, and they are already getting that. No one is trying to ban religions except for religions competing for the same things -- money, power and sex.
The religious are not asking for “respect”. They are asking for deference, obedience, and a lack of accountability for their actions. They want the “right” to inflict their views on others (from proselytizing to ethnic cleansing to mass murder) without criticism or legal consequences.
Society would never excuse rabid fanaticism, violence and murder by a NASCAR fanboy. And yet somehow, violence committed in the name of religion is “okay”, even when it’s not one’s own religion. WHY? Committing violence in the name of a spectator sport is stupid enough, but committing murder in the name of a non-existent thing is unfathomable; it might as well be murdering people over dragons. At least NASCAR exists, unlike mythical “gods”.
StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!says
@Axxyaan : Yes. You beat me to it -- that was what I was going to say.
You respect people because they arepeople and you do NOT treat others badly because they are people and, yes, we all have our quirks and blind spots and areas of ignorance. None of us are perfect and all of us deserve compassion and at least a modicum of respect due a fellow human.
Since as the aphorism goes : There but for the grace of .. whatever .. go I.
Which doesn’t mean you have to be overly nice to their *ideas* but you do have to treat *them* with just a bit of decent consideration unless there’s a flippin’ good reason to do otherwise. That’s all.
The great thing about religion is it offers certainty without the hard part -- thinking.
I think you can respect religious *people* and their right to think differently -- treat them kindly and with fairness -- without respecting the religions ie. the silly dogmas and barbaric texts they believe in maybe?
Treat people well whatever they believe but attack the evils in some religious ideologies and also some harmful cultural practices eg. FGM, rape culture, etc ..
Make sense or too hairsplitting ya reckon?
I like to say that if everyone really respected each others’ religions, there’d be no such word as “missionary”.
No respect. Question them. Ridicule them. Do this whenever you have the power to do so because they are too weak to retaliate. If they can hurt you, fight by more subtle means.
The problem of religious people can never be solved until secular people have control over social influence and the instruments of power to force them to comply with our wishes.
You have to remember. Our enemy has a dulled moral sense and does not believe in right and wrong. For the hardcore fundie things are right and wrong only because God can kick our asses. They are pure authoritarians and can only be controlled when we can make them fear us more than they fear their imaginary God. We owe them no respect and no quarter. They are adults who believe in Santa Clause.
But I think the more fearsome enemy is the people who “believe in belief”. They are confused ans sometimes kindly people who give aid and comfort to the enemy. How do we bring these sniviling collaborators to our side? I think I can’t do it as I hate them more than the fundies who broke my jaw. Yes, the people who beat my face with twirling batons such that I required medical treatments over several years including two surgeries because “believe in belief” types, liberals all, said I had it coming to me. I was 7 years old and said that baby-souls didn’t pre-exist in heaven until God gave them to their parents, but rather that human offspring were the same as puppies, kittens, and baby hamsters, and that God might just be a story for things we didn’t understand. That’s how I was raised. I was warned not to talk about it. But I did. I got my jaw broken. I was tested by the school psychologist and tested for every form or retardation. I was transfered to the “retard gulag” for a year. Tested out in fourth grade, but I was always “retard” and still got hit.
Secular people can never be free until we have the power to put religious kids into the gulag. We need the power to put faith into the DSM. We need the power to have police stop the few cars that still dare to have religious stickers on their bumpers. We need the power who gives religious reasons for their crimes to death
We need the power over them that they have had over us. But we will not use it as cruely as they did. We are better than they are. There will be no executions. There will be no special education gulags. We are better than they are and can do better when we have power over them.
I think you can respect religious *people* and their right to think differently
Why? Is respect due to stupid fucking dumbass bullshit and the people who chose to accept it as real? At best, they’re victims. At worse it’s self-inflicted stupidity. What’s to respect?
First, I want to express my sympathy for what happened to you in school. I have no words for how awful your experience was. No child should have their jaw broken or be beaten in the way you describe.
Second, I do want to express some disagreement with what you’ve said, particularly this portion:
If we’ve learned anything from the Great Atheist Meltdown, it’s that people who don’t believe in god(s) can be just as shitty, ill-informed, and generally horrible to other people as people who do.
Thus, I completely disagree with:
Religious belief is one axis of irrational behavior. It’s not the only one.
Let me close by saying that I’m all for questioning people’s irrational beliefs, particularly in situations where that belief is dominant. People should be asked to question those beliefs. But I can’t share your optimism that secular people will by default never abuse their power.
We have too many counterexamples.
@ Marcus Ranum #2.1
Why?
Because they’re human. And all humans have their irrational quirks. The fact that we specifically know about the irrational quirks of religious people, doesn’t mean they deserve less respect than those of who we don’t know their irrational quirks.
People deserve respect, ideas and institutions do not.
To the extent that people hide behind their ideas they are bound to conflate disrespect for their ideas with disrespect for themselves.
But that’s their problem, not mine.
The only “respect” that people deserve for their religion is the right to have it, and they are already getting that. No one is trying to ban religions except for religions competing for the same things -- money, power and sex.
The religious are not asking for “respect”. They are asking for deference, obedience, and a lack of accountability for their actions. They want the “right” to inflict their views on others (from proselytizing to ethnic cleansing to mass murder) without criticism or legal consequences.
Society would never excuse rabid fanaticism, violence and murder by a NASCAR fanboy. And yet somehow, violence committed in the name of religion is “okay”, even when it’s not one’s own religion. WHY? Committing violence in the name of a spectator sport is stupid enough, but committing murder in the name of a non-existent thing is unfathomable; it might as well be murdering people over dragons. At least NASCAR exists, unlike mythical “gods”.
@Axxyaan : Yes. You beat me to it -- that was what I was going to say.
You respect people because they are people and you do NOT treat others badly because they are people and, yes, we all have our quirks and blind spots and areas of ignorance. None of us are perfect and all of us deserve compassion and at least a modicum of respect due a fellow human.
Since as the aphorism goes : There but for the grace of .. whatever .. go I.
Which doesn’t mean you have to be overly nice to their *ideas* but you do have to treat *them* with just a bit of decent consideration unless there’s a flippin’ good reason to do otherwise. That’s all.