I’ve known that for a long time — the first year I moved here, I had to deal with a chicken farmer (my source for fertilized eggs) who was proudly Nazi, served in WWII on the American side but was impressed with how clean and orderly Germany was, named his German Shepherd “Eva” after you-know-who, and presented me with a copy of Henry Ford’s The International Jew. Sweet guy.
Now, emboldened by the election of a fascist, other neo-Nazis are stepping up their game. Some of them marched into the Minneapolis Institute of Arts to guard the artworks from the socialist IWW members who were counterprotesting outside.
The Star Tribune reports a “trio” of guys “said to look like neo-Nazis” entered the museum on Saturday afternoon and headed for the third floor. According to a witness, they were there to “guard” classical European (read: white) art that happened to be placed near a protest-themed exhibit with photos of Martin Luther King Jr. and Mahatma Gandhi. (The horror.)
Turns out the alleged neo-Nazis were the ones who could’ve used guards: Quoting the same witness, the Star Tribune says some protesters had followed the three fellows in and confronted them. Words were exchanged, and a “shoving match” ensued, with at least a few “punches thrown.” A museum spokeswoman says one among the right-wingers was “attacked,” but declined to press charges.
There was also some bozo outside throwing Nazi salutes and shouting “Heil Trump”.
Some advice: the art in the museum doesn’t need protection from socialists. Socialists tend not to be on the side of anti-cultural thuggery. That would be the Nazis. Nazis only defend art when they see an opportunity to appropriate it.
That said, however, the IWW committed a grievous faux pas. We do not punch Nazis in places where it endangers valuable works of art. Punch nazis outside. Remember that.
And punch them properly. Don’t hurt your wrist or hand!
What Siobhan said!
[nostalgia]
in 7th and 8th grade one of my friends was a Nazi-fanboy. he disliked the racism and appreciated their efficiency. Ogled their proposed megalithic architecture proposals and city layouts. Played with designing buildings with a swastika layout. Yes he also talked about admiringly of their trains always arriving precisely as scheduled. I left town after 8th grade so never followed his development. I doubt he would go full “notsee” [sic]. He directed me to the Albert Speer book “Inside the 3rd Reich” as architect and city designer, to give a different view of the Notsee atrocity.
/nostalgia
PZ:
Yes.
Shiv:
Yes.
To the hand wringing musn’t punch crowd: This snowflake is frozen, hard and razor sharp. I’m in favour of punching nazis.
I’m fairly certain that fascist efficiency is just alt facts.
I think you could make a case for punching Nazis being performance art.
Their safety in public space as they exercise their right to free speech is of utmost importance if we are to distinguish ourselves as civilized people and not like the savages prone to violence that inhabit other parts of the world.
Just call the cops when they’ve singled out a person from a marginalized group and are about to beat and/or kill them.
I’m trying to think of a reason for why I’m saying that. But just know that it’s a scientific, enlightened and rational reason. It definitely isn’t me just regurgitating some abstract dogmatic platitude.
The most surprising thing about this post is that you want fertilized eggs. Why?
I am unlikely to punch Nazis. I lack upper body strength. Kicking Nazis, now….
@#5 numerobis
In the case of the actual Third Reich, I think the efficiency was real – BUT, it was not because the Germans were fascist.
It was because the fascists were Germans.
Compare Italy, which sort of turned into an unhappy boiling pudding under Mussolini.
@tomh #8:
Biologist. Those experimental ten-foot* chickens don’t just grow themselves.
* Ten foot tall or ten legs — not my concern.
I used them to teach a developmental biology course. Unfortunately…
1. I refused to deal with the Nazi, he was the only local source, so
2. I had to buy them from a commercial source, Carolina. Have you ever tried to get live eggs shipped to Minnesota, in February? Turns out freezing chicken eggs solid stops development.
So I taught devbio without using chicks as a model. Which is ok, zebrafish are pretty good experimental systems, I just would have liked the diversity.
@ 12
OK, thanks. I was afraid you thought there was a difference in eating them.
@4, Caine:
What about the people wringing their hands because they hurt their hands punching too many Nazis? What’s the best way to minimize the risk of hurting your wrist or hand while punching them?
Perhaps I should just kick them instead.
@14 Jessie Harban
Remember only with steel-toed safety boots. A broken toe can be very painful.
Jessie Harban: If you can’t kick them and you don’t want to use tools I’d recommend a palm strike, or else a backhand. That’s how bare-knuckle boxers did it. Nazis really aren’t worth breaking your metacarpals over.
@numerobis #5
The “fascists made the trains run on time” thing is an overstatement of something that happened in Italy.
What happened was that fascist blackshirts acted as scabs to neutralize a rail worker’s strike. The trains didn’t run anywhere close to on time.
@ 7 Saad
You really are determined to be a fuckwit aren’t you?
Human rights, including freedom of speech, were developed in response to white fascism, you numbskull. It’s not coincidence that the Declaration of Human Rights dates from immediately after the Holocaust (1948). It wasn’t the “violence of savages that inhabit other parts of the world” that inspired human rights, it was the violence of white fascists in one of the most technologically advanced nations in the world.
It wouldn’t kill you pick up fucking history book some time.
Seriously, I am shocked! Shocked, I say!
That PZ advocates for punching a Nazi.
Shit splatters, so use a stick. Then, all one needs is to hose it off, a bit of bleach to disinfect the stick and it’s ready for reuse.
Here, one of my spare canes. Want the oak one or the Lucite one?
@Caine #4:
I get extremely uncomfortable with physical violence (i.e. I get physically sick around it), so I won’t be participating unless I am personally (or my family) in danger. That doesn’t mean I don’t salute you for being able to do so, and more power to you. I felt sorry for that right-winger who got punched in the video a couple (few?) weeks ago, even though I know intellectually that I shouldn’t have.
@Jessie Harban #14:
I would say kicking is good, as long as you know how to do it without hurting yourself. Use steel-toed shoes as others have mentioned, or just good form if you know that. I would recommend *not* using tools (i.e. bat or stick or such) because I believe weapon charges, including improvised weapons, are pretty strict in most of the USA.
@Silentbob #18 I think Saad was sarcastic. The third paragraph makes it seem so.
And yes, Nazis need to be opposed and, whenever possible, punched. It is not a slippery slope fallacy to say that when unopposed or faced only with words they amass power and escalate. It is merely a lesson learned from history.
Even more amusing than Silentbob completely missing it is that just a month ago, they were pretty much in agreement with that post: But what about the ethnic cleansers!!1
@Saad but how will we know whether or not their ideas are good unless we shower them with every public speaking opportunity availableeeee noooooo
/extreme sarcasm
There’s no moral problem for me when it comes to punching, kicking, or pummeling a nazi into a puddle. It’s comparable to taking antibiotics when you get sick.
I’d be that guy saying “Heil Trump!” with the Nazi salute. If only for the lolz. (And you get them where you can in this guvming)
Guvmint.
If he served in WWII on our side how is it possible he saw a clean and orderly Germany?
His story sounds like bullshit, or chickenshit rather. He probably had never been to Germany. Fought alongside Reagan and John Wayne.
Yeah, neat and ordered was what Germany was not after WWII. Two cities firebombed nearly out of existence, the rest hammered by bombers, artillery, tanks and infantry.
At the end and for a while after, starvation was a very real threat.
While seeing Nazis getting punched induces my giggle reflex, I cannot condone unprovoked assaults against anyone. And, no, their hateful rhetoric does not rise to the level of provocation IMHO. Also, I don’t believe random punchings will prevent them from resorting to actions that actually require physically violent opposition.
No one asked you.
Why are people so desperate to include Nazis in their Fairness Circles that you’re willing to leave everyone targeted by Nazis out of them, if that’s what it takes to keep the Nazis in?
schweinhundt, #29
What’s non-provocative about spray painting swastikas on a mosque, putting up posters saying “imagine a Muslim-free America”, vandalizing Jewish cemeteries, gathering crowds of white supremacists around you as you preach ethnic cleansing?
You cannot look at this through anyone else’s perspective than the already increasingly marginalized people who are the targets of this rhetoric (and actions).
Saad, #32
However despicable the message, putting up posters (generally) falls in the category of free speech and is protected by the constitution.
Vandalizing cemeteries, etc. is a different story and I fully condone beating Nazis/other scum to prevent them from perpetrating crimes like that.
schweinhundt, #33
Free speech isn’t a magic “avoid all the consequences” card.
Receiving a black eye or two for promoting ethnic cleansing in public is a perfectly fine (and personally satisfying) exchange in my book.
Latest theory I heard was that Nazis weren’t “efficient” so much as hopped up on amphetamines. (I got a book about it but I admit I haven’t found time to read it yet.)
I see a lot of comment on an earlier part of the comment by schweinhundt, but not a wisp of response to:
So, since there is no way to prevent them from resorting to actions you describe, we should ignore them and wait until they’re killing people?
No. If you’ve ever observed well trained riot response teams, they’re prepared to use force, but refrain from doing so until someone acts in a way consistent with behavior preparatory to a violent act.
So, if the riot control team sees an emotional crowd, they watch for those picking up bricks or appear to be reaching for other weapons, select them and remove them from the crowd in a very un-gentle way.
That said, poorly trained and poorly selected riot control teams are a fucking nightmare, as they will precipitate the very riot that they’re there to prevent.
Trust me, I’ve been on National Guard riot control duty, having been selected as one not likely to escalate without calmly assessing the situation.
I’ve had angry protestors shouting in my face, quite a few times, I quite agreed with them. Shocked was the look on their face when I stated to them, “Yeah, I agree with you, I’d likely be standing with you, but I’m stuck on duty here. Just don’t undermine that sort of support by fucking up your own neighborhood. Raise hell, shout, speak, don’t break or get anyone hurt and maybe when I get off duty, I can get down here with you”. A pool of calm spread from there, as my squad also agreed.
Implied as well was, if violence were initiated, the one starting the violence would be pulverized, if necessary and removed to custody.
But, another Kent State is precisely what the NGB does *never* want again. Hence, the selection and training. Training to evaluate and take decisive action to prevent an escalation of violence into greater violence, by as little as a prompt punch in the face.
And of course, our weapons were secured well away from the protest site. Just to be certain. We had Kevlar helmets, face shields and long cudgels.
The neo-nazi gets positive behavioral reinforcement from his or her peers, so negative behavioral rewards can be effective.
Actually, wzrd1, I think your analogy is pretty spot-on. E.g. someone on a street corner protesting building a mosque is protected speech so no punching is warranted. However, an anti-muslim group hosting a seminar on how to shut down mosques is something that should be opposed and disrupted.
Also re #36: Kudos on your professionalism and restraint.
Saad, #34
I absolutely agree that protected speech is not free from consequences. Getting punched just isn’t a legal or (in my view) ethical consequence.