I watched Obama’s eulogy for Clementa Pinckney yesterday.
I absolutely despised the talk of “faith in that which cannot be seen”, and I detest the lyrics of “Amazing Grace” — that idea that we’re all wretches in need of saving is part of Christianity’s poisonous power.
But still…that was an amazing and inspiring speech. As a black president, in a black church, who was acknowledging the importance of the black church in black history, and who was delivering a eulogy for a black minister, it was appropriate and beautiful — this was a man proudly embracing the deep history of a people, and giving the best eulogy I’ve ever heard. He not only addressed the personal, but also covering the issues of Pinckney’s activist causes. While the window dressing may jar to this atheist, those causes are shared, and the substance of the speech was moving (even to me!) and important.
He may have been a bit off-key, but I was also impressed that he was moved to express himself with a traditional song, and I envy him the ability to open up like that — with the eyes of the entire world on him.
On top of all the court successes this week, this was a remarkable expression of Obama’s identity and goals. I’d vote for him again, despite the many disappointments of his presidency. This is the week that may mark Obama as one of our great presidents (noting that the events of this week were actually a culmination of many years of struggle.) I’m hoping it also marks a turning point in the history of the US.
Or not. To end on a dismal note, six black churches in the South were set on fire last night. That’s also part of an American tradition of terror.
SIX CHURCHES!!! Just this morning it was still five.
I am not liking this trend.
I also watched President Obama’s eulogy, and I thought it was excellent. A lot of god talk, which grated, buuuuut considering the context (funeral for religious man in religious location with religious people etc.) it could have been worse. I especially enjoyed the second half, where he spoke directly about racism and the need for less talk and more action. Some headlines were calling it a merely ‘passionate race lecture’, but my personal favourites are the ones that call it an ‘unvarnished race lecture’.
I choose to see the inclusion of Amazing Grace as a nod to people’s ability to change, even after a lifetime of being wrong. See: John Newton.
Yes. I struggled a bit to understand why I was being so moved by it (I watched it live online), even though I disagreed with the religious aspect of it, but then read this tweet that said “I’ve never been Christian a SINGLE day of my black life and events like this remind me that black church is EQUALLY culture as it is faith”. That was the light bulb – it was so moving because it was a black president, after all of the racial explosions we’ve had, fully owning that culture and that experience and not just empathizing with or understanding, but fully participating in it. And it was touching and beautiful and historic and exactly what the country’s been needing for months.
Also damn, but he’s an amazing orator when he’s saying something he believes in. By a minute in his cadence was full-on preacher, and there’s a reason that’s used so much: it works.
I also hope this kills the talk by atheists that Obama is a closet atheist. He most definitely is not.
I thought Obama’s eulogy was remarkable.
Like it or not, there is a de facto religious test for higher office in this country. I don’t see any clear way to “fix” this, except from the ground up:
* chip away at religion’s influence in people’s daily lives;
* model being an “out,” positive person to one’s circle of friends (“I know this one atheist, seems to be a nice guy/gal…”);
* hold politicians’ feet to the fire when they try to cite bronze-age worldviews (Do you really think we should kill people for saying, ‘goddamnit’, Senator? Why do you believe the world is flat?)
* RUN FOR LOCAL OFFICE
Regardless of his faults, Obama is an excellent speaker and gave an excellent eulogy cum speech on racism.
Spot on, PZ. Ditto remarks above.
I, too, had thought Obama likely a closet atheist; but the scales have fallen from my eyes. I still regard him highly–best president of my lifetime, going back to Truman.
I hope his post-presidency is a continuing high arc.
I don’t care if he’s an atheist or not, only whether he tries to legislate his religion or not. So far, I haven’t seen any attempts to do so.
I’m waiting to see how Fox News attempts to spin the eulogy into and attack on the country/Christianity and a step in the agenda to push sharia law/socialism/the Gaystopo/BENGHAZI!!!!!!!!!
Makes me wonder what he’s gonna do when he’s out of office.
You mean other than his support for faith based charities, telling us that faith based charities are the best way to deliver services? (This doesn’t fit with studies I’ve seen, which show the best way is government, in contradiction not only to the Republican view, but to everything Obama has said).
Well, I doubt he was thinking much about the eyes of the entire world then. His head was in the moment in that place, so to speak, connecting with the other people there. And spontaneous performances like that just sort of come with the territory in that context — in a way that people usually don’t feel comfortable or natural in other settings, like a “white” church or whatever (or at a press conference, let’s say, at the water cooler, in line at the DMV, on the street, etc.). It’s a great moment and all, of course, but maybe I’m weird that I didn’t find it surprising at all.
Also, trying not to be “off-key” is way overrated, even in the European musical tradition (not to mention traditions everywhere else that you’re maybe not familiar with). If you’re obsessed about that, you’re doing it all wrong, and you’re not a good performer who’s trying to do anything like interpret a work in a unique or creative way. Maybe that’s because you had a crappy teacher (or you’re literally a robot?), but anyway, it’s a silly and highly unrealistic criticism to make.
It’s not very clear what you have in mind. What’s supposed to have turned? I mean, politicians are always performing for their audiences, trying to make themselves look as if they were actual human beings and so forth, but this is a rare case where it does seem like a sincere person just being himself, openly and freely expressing his conception of his identity and goals and such. Is that the Earth-shattering (but also kind of pathetic) new precedent that’s been set?
Or are you referring to the rest of the events this week? Both?
Nonsense, PZ, Barry is not a superstitious man. You don’t have to believe to use the words to move people. Obama’s job at that eulogy was to celebrate the lives of the slain, lift people’s spirits and end on an optimistic note for the future.
There’s a difference between a lecture and a speech, just as there’s a difference between management and leadership. Obama demonstrated leadership and returned to his themes of “Yes, we can” and “hope and change.”
From personal experience I have given speeches (I’d rather call them addresses) that have moved people to silent introspection and tears. And if you asked me if I actually believed everything I said I would answer, “It doesn’t matter so much if I believe it as it does they believe it.”
Watch closely the point where Obama intones, “Amazing grace,” pauses and then starts singing. Watch the people around him go from listening attentively to becoming one with him, joining him, being moved by the moment. At that point Obama transitioned from comforting to inspiring. You could almost hear it snap into place. Whether Obama believes the words to Amazing Grace or not is completely immaterial, but his use of the words at that moment, in that context was masterful.
It does cause me to reflect in regret that he used that power so sparingly during his presidency.
Thank Jeebus I read below the fold. For a second I thought you were going to rip into it.
I get jealous when I compare Obama’s intelligence, compassion and speaking ability to those of our prime minister Harper. Maybe when Obama steps down he can immigrate to Canada, in a sort of a postponed 1 for 1 trade for Ted Cruz?
I’m just asking questions.
Wow. I need to go watch the full speech but that first 2.5 minutes feels like such a big deal in itself. As others have said, it’s pretty fucking monumental to have the president actively own and partake of black culture in that way. I think Obama has run from that his whole presidency out of fear of what the right would make of it and not wanting to appear biased etc. I’m glad to see him abandon the pretense, even if only for this one occasion.
Everything about this speech infuriated me. As in the case of torture, domestic espionage, and the environment, Obama makes empty platitudes without any intention of effecting a significant change. And yes, just as PZ said, Christianity’s central message of the virtue of self-loathing is thoroughly repugnant. However, what shocked me most were the rounds of applause: as a non-American, I find it inconceivable that somebody would clap during eulogy.
Bottom line: even though I found myself in agreement with Obama more often than not, his eulogy left me unmoved.
I think President Obama did a great job with that speech. The partially-off-key singing was perhaps more moving than a perfect performance would have been. The god/grace bits struck a wrong note for me, but not for his audience.
Meanwhile, other Christians are not joining into Obama’s community spirit. They are, instead, buying more guns and spending more time at the gun range:
Link
That gun-centered backlash from white christians makes Obama’s speech more important because of the contrast.
More love-not-guns-not-hate moves from the Whitehouse:
https://twitter.com/WhiteHouse/status/614611810415681536/photo/1
rinn #19
You find it “shocking” and “inconceivable” that people might mourn differently than you?
Funnily enough, I find that inconceivable, and actually, pretty insulting somehow.
rinn @18, I’ve heard the complaint about clapping during a eulogy from other sources. I think that is a bloody stupid reaction. What is accepted practice in one community may not be the tradition in another. Tolerance would be nice here.
I hope people clap if someone provides a moving eulogy for me. That would be awesome.
As for empty platitudes, do you have a personal filter that turns all substantive statements into platitudes? A funeral eulogy may not be the right place to outline specifics for solving, say, the mass incarceration epidemic in the USA, but Obama walked a tightrope between being appropriate for a funeral and making policy statements when he said,
The many points made about citizens working toward a “more perfect union” and not assuming that we already have a perfect USA — those were good points to make.
Lynna, OM #19
I know it’s been said before, but I really am confused as to how the ideal world of the gun-nut works.
For example, let’s take the guy walking around Wal-mart with the shotgun he brought with him, loading and racking the weapon as he’s going through the isles. So, the gun-nuts support this guys “right” to do so. Also, they want everyone to be armed to protect against a person shooting up a public place.
So, in their world, how does this work? Does the good guy hero wait until he or she takes a 12 gauge to the face before Rambo’ing the loading and racking guy down, or, do they draw and have a stand off until they are able to discern that they are each patriotic, non-killer hero types? Are there any ramifications, other than wounds, for either after the bloodbath, because standyourground?
It’s all just so incoherent. And stupid.
Lynna, OM #22
Yeah, and it’s even more personal than community or tradition. Each person and those who knew them are what dictate “appropriate”, or whatever word we’d use, in the grieving of, funeral for, or eulogy about the one who is passed.
Those who know me know that I would expect sarcasm, laughter, even mocking of me for not being immortal after all, in any such event.
To tell people how to conduct themselves in this matter comes off as so self-important and patronizing to me that I can hardly imagine it.
rinn @ 18
So, all that about empty platitudes and nothing actually being done pales in comparison to people daring to mourn differently than you? You’re adorable.
rinn
Why exactly do you find clapping during a eulogy (or maybe this particular one) so shocking and distasteful? As a non-American (and why does this have any bearing)?
As a non-American myself, I absolutely loved the audience participation durin the eulogy-speech. It felt entirely appropriate, given the context of the funeral, and absolutely right for the bigger moments (whereas smaller ones got various mumbles of ‘Amen’, ‘Say it’, ‘Mmmhmm’, and the like). I may not approve of church-as-religion in general, but I thoroughly (as a non-American, let’s be specific here, okay?) approve of the church-as-community-capable-of-emotional-response aspect. Makes the speaker a little more than a little figure in fancy robes (or in this case, ordinary black suit), but someone with whom you’re communicating. And that person communicating gets feedback.
Sounds like you, rinn, see a cultural divide on whether the person speaking up front should maintain a polite authoritarian distance, or should fully engage with their audience. Alternately, whether the audience should maintain a polite, obedient, distant silence or be allowed to express (dis)agreement and feelings.
And yeah, Obama’s inability to put forth specific policy measures really pissed me off. :P Never mind that he spoke about different aspects of systemic and individual racism in various aspects of USAmerican culture much more forcefully and directly than he has ever done before, I find the lack of actual action, right there from the pulpit, incredibly disappointing. [/s]
Just thought I’d put that out there, as a non-American.
Also, inconceivable.
I had to do it.
I was crushed to hear him say (paraphrasing from memory) that the shooter did not know that he was being used by God when he carried out his act. I know that the whole “God’s plan” thing is used to give comfort to those who are grieving their brutally painful losses, and in this case, to take the power away from the shooter and the repugnant hatred that motivated him, but still, such sayings viscerally repulse me.
But I have never stopped liking Obama’s presidency, even when I have been disappointed with some individual positions he has taken. I always thought Obama better represents my views than the current field of expected front runners , including Clinton (let’s face it, Sanders will not be the party nominee). Not regretting my votes for him in 08 or 12, either.
I too was surprised at first by the President switching into song but thought it was the right thing to do it worked. Funerals and memorials are emotional events by necessity, The President knew Pinckney personally and felt at ease enough to slip into song. I liked how the congregation slowly hesitantly joined in singing, a beautiful moment.
The song itself strikes the right emotional chord of empathy for all of our fellows which is the root of the song.
I too feel sad that he has not used “the Bully pulpit” very much so far and wonder what he will do in his next job.
uncle frogy
I just have to reiterate that this kind of a statement doesn’t make sense, even though it’s obviously well-meaning. He did a fine job, and “a perfect performance” just isn’t some kind of an idealization of some abstract thing. There is no Platonic form of Amazing Grace, in a perfect state of aesthetic purity or mathematical exactitude or some such crap, which somebody is supposed to approach somehow (but well… never actually do in reality). Writing/performing/listening is a physical process that simply isn’t going to be “perfect” no matter what, and fortunately for us that’s not what we actually like or expect about performance arts anyway. People for some strange reasons do like to talk as if that were the goal, but if you think about it a little more carefully all the evidence suggests something completely different.
—-
I don’t expect fireworks or anything like that, but if anybody actually felt like celebrating something about my life (or their own lives) at my funeral … how’s that a problem? I’m definitely not going to be around to either complain about it or show my appreciation. But simply acting the way they think they’re supposed to act, to keep up appearances or to “show respect” or some conventional bullshit like that? That kind of pompous, stuffy nonsense definitely doesn’t make me feel any better, when I as a living person go to this already-miserable sort of thing we call a funeral. I’m already mourning for fuck’s sake, and you don’t need to make it any worse by being an ass around everybody else who’s doing the same in whatever way they see fit. You have the rest of your life to be that way (however long that might be), but it would be nice to spare us some of that bullshittery in times like that.
I trust everyone appreciates the political statement of Obama singing that song in public. To pedantically remind, Amazing Grace, We Shall Overcome, and some others were frequently sung by civil rights marchers as they walked into gangs of police, dogs, and tear gas. Here we are 50+ years later…so much has changed, and yet we’re still burying people murdered for being black by a white person.
And am I wrong that the last president to sing in public was Harry Truman? I can’t think of any other. I assume Carter sang in church regularly but I never saw it. Clinton played sax on TV. I vaguely recall seeing pictures or video of Richard Nixon at a piano, but I may be misremembering. We need more musical presidents.
rinn @ 18 — “what shocked me most were the rounds of applause…” You weren’t bothered by the call-and-response? The shouts of the congregation? Everybody standing? The type of musical instruments that joined in with him? The syncopated rhythm? The movement…almost dancing!…in church!? Because those are just some of the other differences between a white person’s pallid, unemotional church service and a Southern black service.
… six black churches in the South were set on fire last night.
Quibble: per the linked story, the fires took place “in the past week.”
And in one case, quite possibly the blaze started due to tree limbs falling on a power line (though others were clearly arson).
It way moving in places, but I also found some of religious messages jarring. I don’t think “Amazing Grace” bothers me quite as much, perhaps, because there are all times when we feel like we don’t deserve something, and yet still want to have hope, and given the context of the song’s writing and it’s association with the abolitionist movement, it felt culturally appropriate for the moment. But what struck me in particular about watching the speech was watching the audience. In particular, watching the white people in the audience. There were definitely pockets of white groups who neither clapped nor stood up even when others around them (both white and black) were doing so.
@ 31 Robro. “And am I wrong that the last president to sing in public was Harry Truman?”
Obama also sang “Sweet Home Chicago” with Mick Jagger and B.B. King when they performed at the White House.
Who could forget W dancing with the African (?) dance troupe?
Ibis #11
My dream job for him is to replace the deadweight Clarence Thomas on the Supreme Court. William Howard Taft was President and later served as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.
I have seen much the same thing in a “white” Australian church. One we were associated with (Catholic) used Bette Midler’s The Rose reasonably often. It was started by one of the younger priests for a non-funeral service – maybe associated with Easter without being the main midnight mass.
A single voice singing The Rose a cappella can be moving and appropriate at a funeral. Best of all from my point of view, not religious. Most people at the church knew it pretty well so it didn’t go off-key or off rhythm once they joined in. Of course, being used at funerals meant that a lot of people were only up to humming anyway. For some of the more distressing occasions, people would leave it entirely to the singer. (The group I was part of had 3 deaths in less than a year, 2 of them being women under 40, plus the priest who was assigned to the group also died soon after our annus horribilis. We got very good at funeralling there for a while.)
As for other comments about that funeral. I’m not at all surprised or put off by people clapping or laughing or whatever it takes to get through a funeral.
In my will, I’ve left specific instructions that anyone who REFUSES to clap, dance or shout during my eulogy is to be pummeled with a wet big-mouth bass until subsumed or subdued, whatever.
As others have mentioned, I’ve seen many church services, for funerals and other occasions, that were non-traditional.
We belonged to a very diverse Episcopal church which would sometimes have an entire service that was accompanied by an African dance troupe, or a service that was accompanied by our teens who could play instruments, or the St. Nikolaus Day service in which the priest (who was dark-skinned) dressed up as St. Nikolaus, called the kids up to surround him on the steps, gave them chocolate coins and told them about the origins of the Santa Claus story. Local college students were made to feel welcome, gay and lesbian couples were also welcomed, and passing homeless people were invited in for the monthly parish breakfast. It was an offbeat community, but that was a church that exemplified “church as community center”.
I might never have left religion behind if we had stayed in that place and if that church has remained the same,
Also like others, I’ve told my family that I would prefer that they hold a wake for me at a place which means something to our family, rather than a stuffy church or funeral home. Then, at least one of them should scatter my ashes in the ocean at the Monterey Bay, the most beautiful place in which I have ever lived.
PDX_Greg @28:
You and me both. I finally listened to the entire eulogy after shutting it off yesterday during the first few minutes (I was turned off by the religious BS). I’m glad the President spoke out unequivocally about racism and the need for serious gun reforms, so overall, I liked his message, but man, that bit about God’s plan made me want to hurl.
This shit. This shit right here.
One death or act of racism is too much, but something needs to qualitatively and quantitatively change when it comes to racism and associated ignorance. It’s got it’s own risks but this is one of the things that make me want to see some real “Social Justice Warriors” be more aggressive about proactively looking for racism, calling it out and being ready for the tantrums of fake persecution.
This eulogy woke me up to why black culture is so enmeshed with the church and faith. Its hard for whites (like me) to understand just how few places blacks have had to be safe. And to be openly expressive. And relax. I think the “safe house”, underground railroad, coded talk mentality is still in the back of of the mind for many, many black people, because they still are not safe. And just like women are slut shamed and punished for reporting sexual aggression, and silenced for addressing gender bigotry, so to are blacks poo-pooed and belittled and silenced for addressing race bigotry. And racial aggression.
The intertwining between race and religion is more complex than I had thought.
I have previously only thought that we need to recognize and address how religion encouraged and supported racism. The top down view from the cultural level. But there is the bottom up view as well – the view from the individual level. I now see that we also MUST address how religious spaces have been the only safe spaces, and work to create more safe spaces for black lives. And that is something we all must do, one person and one space at a time.
@18 rinn:
One first has to have a heart, then one can appreciate what President Obama did on Friday.
My best regards to you. I wish you luck. Myself, as a lifelong atheist, I stand with PZ.
rinn, 18:
you can be shocked if you want. That was a black funeral for black people, not for you. When my grandmother died and we eulogized her, we clapped our hands. we cheered and laughed with the stories of her doing great things. we celebrated her life and the love and happiness she gave to all of us and we shared the love and happiness we experienced with each other, to uplift each other, to remember the important things: We knew a great woman, and she touched all of us, she changed all of us, and we loved her for it.
If you can’t clap and laugh at a funeral, there’s no point in having one.
sezit @42:
The importance of churches in the African-American community is one of the big reasons Dylann Roof chose the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church. He was aware of its history (it was built in 1816). He knew how important it was to black people. It’s one more layer of his act of racial terrorism, bc he could have stopped at any black church on his way from Columbia, S.C. to Charleston. But he didn’t.
(For more on the history of the EAME Church, see here.)
ceesays #44
Well, you’ve gone and done the same thing as rinn has.
If a group of people want to maintain a somber, quiet event for someone who they know would have wanted a somber, quiet event – who are you to tell them they might as well not have one? They might as well not gather and mourn their loved one? Because, you know, that’s not how you’d have done it. Which is what should be important to them there at their time of loss.
Or something.
longship @43:
I think this criticism goes overboard. Rinn’s comment demonstrates ignorance on xir part about cultural mores in the African-American community with regard to funerals, not a lack of heart.
46 tkreacher:
yes. precisely that. they are shocked by the way people who are not them conduct ceremonies for the dead. I maintain that if no one can tell a single good story about me when I am dead, they may as well not have a funeral at all.
Funerals are for the living, not the dead. What rankles me most about Rinn’s comment is this:
As President, Obama has little direct authority to set domestic policy. He can interpret laws to a degree, he can propose laws, he can veto laws, he can appoint justices to judge the laws, but he cannot craft or pass laws. The best he can do is work with Congress, and when Congress is in the hands of the opposition, his influence is limited. But he does have what Teddy Roosevelt called the bully pulpit, and what that means is that when he talks, people listen. And what Obama clearly understands is that he was speaking to multiple audiences, and each audience had to hear a slightly different message. The first, and in this case most important, audience was the Reverend Pinckney’s family and loved ones. Given Rev. Pinckney’s deep involvement with the church, and in fact the degree to which it defined his identity, it was inevitable that the eulogy would be deeply religious; in fact, it would have been rude and offensive if it were otherwise. Yes, as an atheist, it grates on me, but I am not the primary audience.
The second audience is the black community at large. Of course that’s a much more diverse community, but what they needed to hear was an acknowledgement of their history, their suffering, and their reality. And the truth of the matter is that you cannot separate the struggle and suffering of black America from the black church, even if the struggle transcends the church and many who moved the struggle forward were not of the church.
Finally, as President, he’s addressing the nation as a whole, and what the nation needs to hear is that the twin evils of racism and violence are still afflicting the nation, and that we all need to take action to end them.
As I see it, Obama delivered a masterful, coherent speech that addressed all of the intended audiences, and sent the message that they needed to hear. I don’t know how much good it will do, but I also don’t know how he could have done more good.
PZ is spot on in the qualification. Magnificent eulogy otherwise.
Not to worry. Most may come around just in time (say, within a century or three, after the Gigantic Dying, when surviving humans face having to confront a trashed real world in the context of having wasted trillions of human-hours soliciting the target of their increasingly fervent praying, to realize that that thing they’ve been praying to for deliverance all that time for help hasn’t been doing a goddamned thing, not because of the slimy #1 excuse (the lord works in mysterious ways) but because there just ain’t anything there that either listened to them or was in any capacity to rescue people who found a tradition of abject stupidity a better strategy for responding to the irksome aspects of one’s environment or personal situation than a physical response that might actually impinge on it and mitigate problems.
But not before a retaliatory anti-science groundswell that dominates over reason…Kurzweil may have been a tad flamboyant in his ‘prediction’ of the oncoming ‘singularity’ (a perfect example of how we desensitize ourselves to a real threat), but one doesn’t need his preposterous take to see the looming wall.
No doubt about it Obama gives good “speech” but when the speech is read, rather than performed, it’s rather dead. The gap between his rhetoric and his actions is as wide as the gap between the performance and the text. He’s only ever given good speech. That he is such a skilled performer is a good reason to not watch the performance but rather read the text and watch what actually “happens” rather than what is ephemerally felt.
@Tony#45: EXACTLY!
That particular aspect seems to have been underplayed in many people’s minds as if it might be troublesome – as if, you know, (shoosh, pssst, whispering noises) don’t say anything – other incipient monsters might get ideas.
As if similar monsters need any clues toward establishing their targets.
As if bringing an important aspect of the problem out into the open in an effort to understand what happened is only to be regarded as making matters worse, instead of a legitimate and accurate observation at understanding how this monster targeted that might be valuable in ascertaining how other monsters might work in the future, however unthinkably.
It can’t be insignificant that such a hideous event is encouraged to occur when so many in law enforcement are preoccupied if not utterly steeped in racist prejudice. But its actively instilled to glut on the net: how many times have we seen a newsmax pop portraying president Obama as the proverbial “n” inferior and not done a godammed thing to fight that persistent slime?
You and I and President Obama know that his presidency has been used by the most despicable element in this country to foment racist activity. You know it. I know it. And we both know why Obama has had such a hard time performing his office. Because of racist jerks who do not care at all about what their country is supposed to be all about…
There are a special handful of wealthy racist bigot louts that control us. For some odd reason the American people are too stupid to understand that. So we let them do their thing and whine bitterly about it, whilst pretending to make a difference at the polls. In case nobody bothered to notice, the racist bigot thing has been on the UPSWING during President Obama’s tenure. Obviously 4 nights a week enjoying Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert eviscerate the idiots who control our country hadn’t done much, if anything. Basically nightly dinner-time laugh parties.
Real change happens only when one actually has the balls to confront the people who need to have their minds changed.
As an atheist for at least 50 of my 62 years, an unrepentant progressive, and hardly a fan of Barack Obama, I have to say that his eulogy was pitch perfect. He was not only speaking to the black church that Reverend Pinckey belonged to, but the whole nation. Both of those groups are far more religious than me or the FtB crowd, and that is what matters here. As Saul Alinsky said, don’t antagonize the people you are trying to reach. Doesn’t anyone read Rules for Radicals anymore? Any other approach (he should appeal to the FSM?) would not have worked to get his message across.
Whether Obama has any genuinely held religious beliefs is still up for debate, but he totally nailed this vital assignment.
This is the first time in 7 years that I have seriously considered Obama worthy of a third term.
Mourning is as much cultural as it is an individual process. I was raised Jewish culturally (not very religious though). I remember as a teenager the first time I went to a Christian wake. I was completely unprepared and confused as to what was going on. I thought to myself “How could people be happy and celebrating? Are they happy the person died?! These people must be awful human beings!” But as I matured I came to understand that different cultures process death differently. In Jewish culture, it’s a much more somber affair, from the quiet eulogies to the solemn funeral, to the quiet visits to the mourner’s house where we’d sit quietly and eat sandwiches. But other cultures celebrate the joy of the deceased’s life rather than emphasizing the mourner’s sorrow.
There’s no single correct way for anyone to mourn.
And I’ll be honest that while I thought Obama’s speech was a good speech, there’s still some cognitive dissonance for me to associate that sort of speech with a eulogy.
If Obama believes what he said about creating opportunities for our children equally, then why is he pushing the TPP and other trade agreements which will lessen opportunities for all Americans–Black, White and other–to find good jobs?
anchor @52:
I can’t begin to understand all the reasons why so many USAmericans appear complacent in our ongoing problems being ruled by the elite, but I don’t think you can chalk it up to them [USAmericans] being stupid. I think the reasons are quite a bit more complex than that.
Yup. For example, the number of hate groups in the country rose by 755%, during President Obama’s tenure.
Combating implicit racial biases, racial prejudices, and racism in general, which is embedded systemically in this country is going to take significantly more work than liberals and progressives watching Stewart or Colbert. There’s no way watching two entertaining shows is going to accomplish much on that front.
Women and people of other genders, as well as those with no gender possess courage as well. Being courageous does not require having testicles.
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grendelsfather @53:
I don’t see why it’s still up for debate. He has expressed that he is Christian many times over the past 6 years. Unless there is actual evidence that he belongs to another religion (or none at all), there is no reason to think he is being anything other than sincere.
Wow. That’s high praise for someone whose administration was involved in several human rights violations and continued the erosion of civil liberties of USAmericans. He gave a great, impassioned speech, but that doesn’t change the shady, unethical, immoral shit his administration has been involved in.
Of course I think he’s significantly better than any GOP candidate that he was up against (which is why he got my vote), but I don’t think he was *fantastic* and certainly don’t think he warrants a third term.
@robro, #31
Yep, you’re wrong. Ronald Reagan sang “Irish Eyes” in a public duet with Brian Mulroney. JFK sang “God Bless America” at a New York rally. Both performances can be found on YouTube. I dunno about singing Bushes, but I wouldn’t rule it out.
Listening to the eulogy, I thought of the line from “Memphis Blues”: “Are you a Christian child?” “Ma’am I am tonight!”. I do appreciate a bit of good Christian preaching, and Obama was bringing it. When he recited the names of the victims after the song? Chills.
And it’s important, I think, to note that it wasn’t “just words”. The President of the UNITED States, a black man, giving that speech in that place in that hour was an astoundingly powerful symbol, a repudiation of the violent racism of the past year (and the past two and a half centuries–I liked Obama’s reference to America’s ‘original sin’).
Is it enough? No, of course not–Obama even noted that in his speech. But it was a symbol of hope for the oppressed and a challenge to the rest of us.
Sixteen black churches burning on the TV
All the way from Texas to Tennessee
And a politician locks my eye and says to me
There is no crisis here there’s no conspiracy
— Emily Saliers, “Leeds”
Yeah, while I listened to this, I said “what” and “come on, really” a couple of times. What irked me especially was how he made it sound like being part of a church like this, was just what black people all did, like it was the only way to be or something. Like black atheists, Muslims or other non-Christians don’t even exist in the USA.
I get that he made those references because of the venue of the funeral service, because of who the victims were and where the murders took place and probably also because of his own experiences in such churches, but come on.
Add on top of that the usual Christian anti-humanity talk and lyrics that PZ noted above and it got very distracting in a lot of places. Still, there was a lot of stuff I agreed with and it was certainly very moving and of great significance.
Saganite, he was speaking as a Christian to other Christians at a Christian memorial service. Expecting him to omit Christian references, or include non-Christian references, is unfair, just as it would be unfair to expect an atheist to include Christian references at a memorial for an atheist.
We do not (and should not) require (American) politicians to give up their faith, as long as they respect the First Amendment. Frankly, based on Dawkins, et al, I see no evidence that atheists would actually be any better at governing than people of faith.
Compassion should be paramount. His speech was intended to provide comfort and hope for grieving people.
#61 Nepos, I did acknowledge the people, venue, victims etc.; but it still bothers me. And, no, I wouldn’t want to see an atheist memorial where the speaker acts like the only way for people (or a segment of them) to be is to be atheists. I didn’t expect atheist references, I expected less divisive ones, though.
@ Nerd #35
I always forget Obama is a lawyer by training. He taught constitutional law for years, didn’t he? How awesome would it be if he ended up on the supreme court?
Thumper @64:
Ed Brayton doesn’t agree and argues against the idea. I think he has some very, very good points.
@ Tony!
Thanks; an interesting read. As I see it there’s two options: either Obama was lying in his campaign promises, he doesn’t really believe that stuff and said it just to get elected; or he really does believe what he said and was forced to take the position he took as POTUS by intra- and inter-party politics. I’m always wary of assuming that the positions a leader’s party or administration took during their tenure are necessarily their personal opinions, which they would actually act on if certain restraints were removed. The problem is, I can’t think of a way to indicate which option is more likely to be true than the other, so I can appreciate that to many people, it wouldn’t be worth the risk of gambling.
Saganite @63, Do you think that Martin Luther King, Jr., was divisive when he used Christianity as the foundation of his greatest speeches? This isn’t a gotcha, I just want to know, because if you do, then we’ll just have to agree to disagree on the use of religion as a motivator.
Thumper @66, I think there are more than two possibilities as to why Obama didn’t fulfill (or try to fulfill) certain campaign promises. It’s possible that he was lying about some of them, though I hesitate to accuse any man of being a liar without more proof. Its certainly the case that his insistence on bipartisanship in the face of the Republicans’ absolute refusal to work together really made it hard for him to fulfill all his promises–though I blame the Republicans for that.
But it is also quite possible that he fully intended to carry out certain promises only to discover that they weren’t feasible once he actually got to the White House. Remember, he was a junior Senator, his exposure to the reality of Washington would have been limited, for all his experience as a lawyer and activist. Also, I think people expected far too much from him. It’s true that things haven’t changed as much as people had hoped–but they have changed. The ACA, the end of the war in Iraq, gay marriage–oh, you can say that he had nothing to do with that last one, but I think his very public change of opinion on that helped quite a bit.
At any rate, 1) it would be nice to have a black man (other than Thomas) on the Court, and 2) it would be fun to imagine the debates between Obama and the conservative douchebags.
I can tell you that that Eulogy did a lot for the people here in Charleston. Yes there was a lot of god talk but, as PZ said, he was in a church, eulogizing a preacher, speaking to his parishioners in a community that is centered around the church. Not a thing wrong with it IMHO. It was the topic of discussion around town all weekend and will be remembered for a long time here. The mood of people here in town was pretty special all weekend.
Now let’s hope something good comes out of all of this.
Rev BDC @68:
I wonder…I think we have a good idea how President Obama’s speech went over with many African-Americans. I wonder how it went over with many white people (of the ones who are aware of/heard the eulogy). Given the essential role white USAmericans will have to play in dismantling systemic racism, it is imperative that they pay close attention to calls for reform such as the POTUS gave.
@ Nepos
I have to admit I only have the most often quoted bits of MLK’s speeches memorized and those I don’t consider divisive. I’d have to read the rest of it to tell you, so it’d depend. Did he just use Christianity as a basis for his speech or did he, like I perceive Obama as doing, imply American blacks are all centered on their Christian churches, ignoring Muslims and various other non-Christians?
Tony! @69, as a white person, I was nodding and yelling “Amen” by the end (and, yknow, atheist and all that). My family and friends all report similar reactions–tears in the eyes, etc. Will this translate to direct action? Probably not–but I do think the speech helped white people understand and contextualize the black position, and greater understanding generally leads to greater tolerance. Also, and I know this will be unpopular on this site, I think Obama’s overt expression of Christianity will help a lot. White America, like Black America, is still largely Christian, and that Christianity can serve as a bridge between the two groups, as it has in the past.
Saganite @70, Well, MLK’s speeches drew much of their power from religious references that resonated with his audiences in the same fashion that Obama’s speech did–logically enough, since MLK and Obama were both drawing on the same black Christian tradition of preaching. For example, to really appreciate MLK’s final speech (one of his most moving, in my opinion), you must be familiar with the story of Moses, and you should also understand how Moses’ story was used by black slaves, who identified themselves with the Jews that Moses redeemed. He assumed that his audience would have this knowledge–which, to be fair, they generally did. The vast majority of MLK’s listeners were Christians, black and white.
Anyway, my point in bringing up MLK was simply to point out that Obama was doing exactly the same thing that MLK did. If you think that both of them were wrong to do so, that’s your opinion, and you’re entitled to it–but it becomes a sort of agree to disagree thing, since I’m a huge fan of MLK’s speeches!
@71
But those examples you mention are just references to Bible stories. Those can be appreciated by any who know them, whether as literal or as fable or metaphor. That’s not what I mean as potentially divisive. It’s more stuff like this:
“The church is and always has been the center of African American life.”
That said, upon re-watching the speech, I have to admit there was a lot less of that than I at first remembered, so maybe those few comments coloured my experience of the speech too negatively in my memory.
Saganite @72, fair enough. And yeah, that line does erase non-Christian Blacks, doesn’t it? I didn’t take it that way, I figured it was a bit of hyperbole referring to the (genuinely huge) role that Christianity played among black slaves and its legacy post-emancipation, but then, I’m not in the group that was being erased. In retrospect, he should have re-worded that.
Well, we’re now at fucking SEVEN churches burnt.
http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150630/PC16/150639930/1177/fire-crews-responding-to-blaze-at-african-american-church-in-greeleyville
Attack upon attack. I guess there are some Roof-fans who want to keep working on inciting that race war he wanted to start? Or is this “retaliation” for how popular opinion, retailers and many politicians have finally turned against the use and celebration of the Confederate battle flag?