Great and accurate analysis. Already, there is a MRA idjit pulling the usual rape apologetics, including it can’t be rape outside of the criminal justice system, which proves AM’s point about those backing MS can’t look at the forest of evidence for the trees of misogyny in the way.
Pierce R. Butlersays
Ashley Miller also has a(nother) severe rash of slymetrolls, mostly beating the Alison-Smith-is-a-drunk-slut drum: an amazingly tedious and tendentious crew of dis-ingénues.
HappyNatsays
johngregg wants us to “define consent”. What a bunch or scary, scary people. They are tedious in their attempts to use Vulcan logic, stick to dictionary definitions, and use court of law ruling as the only truth, but it frightens me that such people exist in society. Even if they are just playing word games on the internet they are providing cover (or haven as it were) for truly despicable people.
I’m glad Ashley is letting their comments stand, their comments are as damning to themselves as any counter argument could ever be.
The “court of law” argument implies that they think any old awful thing is permitted as long as you can get away with it in court. That’s – worse than scary – and speaks volumes about their sense of what’s right and wrong.
@4: taken to its logical conclusion, their court-of-law bullshit also precludes anyone ever reaching a court of law, since apparently no accusation can be made if the subject hasn’t already been found guilty…
They are terrible people.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trollssays
I cross posted #5 Crystal Clear Consent with AM’s blog.
Saad: Openly Feminist Gamersays
Holy shit, some of the commenters over there…
Great informative post by Ashley though.
arthursays
I read Ashley’s post on the train earlier, and agree that it is a fair and comprehensive overview of the situation. I’ve been following this fairly closely for the duration.
Michael Nugent was deeply offended by the accusation that he was providing a haven for rapists, misogynists and abusers. And that is a very harmful accusation not to be taken lightly. If it were made at me, I would want to challenge it as vigorously as Nugent.
But Ashley’s post goes a long way to explaining why that the accusation against Nugent was not without grounding, and was not an unreasonable assertion. Assuming Nugent read the witness statements made against Shermer and James Randi’s statement, why on earth would any right thinking person launch blog posts in Shermer’s defence.
Michael Nugent deserved to be criticized for coming out defending Shermer. And several people, including PZ Myers did just that. (He didn’t deserve to be called an “Irish Wanker”, which was out of order, but that’s a whole other matter. )
Saad: Openly Feminist Gamersays
Nerd, #7
Prepare for some sea-lion “but what if…” scenarios now.
zenlikesays
From the Nuge’s latest post:
it was in response to me defending others that PZ turned his focus on me.
Self-awareness: zero.
Also:
This time around, some defenders of PZ’s hateful rhetoric are now extending the ongoing smearing of me personally, to now also smear the integrity and good work of Atheist Ireland
Sorry Nuge, it is you who has dragged in your own organisation into your ongoing personal vendetta against PZ. Not our fault.
The comments section is a true who-is-who of slymepit assholes. Not going to wade into that quagmire.
I also see DJ and JT have taken the wrong side on this. Again. What is it what accommodationist fuckers and their love for decorum and the status quo? Fuck that shit.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trollssays
Prepare for some sea-lion “but what if…” scenarios now.
Not going back. Been a long day, and I need a little down time.
HappyNatsays
Nerd,
Thanks I was going to post the CCC link, but with those fucking guys whats the point? Still good to have it out there to a different audience.
arthur @9
He didn’t deserve to be called an “Irish Wanker”, which was out of order, but that’s a whole other matter.
If one walks like an Irish wanker, and talks like an Irish wanker . . . Nuge has been a tedious bore for how many months and how many thousands of words now? I think calling him a wanker is generous.
I think it’s inappropriate. Wanking (if done quietly in the comfort of one’s private space, or with a friend) is completely innocuous and nobody needs to know or care that you’re doing it. Nugent’s actions, in that sense, are almost the opposite of wanking. Indeed, perhaps he should let off a little of that bottled up frustration he’s displaying using a good wank, a hot shower, and perhaps a short nap.
Besides, as a half-Irish wanker, I don’t want Nugent to be declared The Irish Wanker. Doubtless there’s plenty of energetic competition for the title, and if his actual wanking is as petulant and effusive as his online activities, he’d be in the competition but far from certain to win.
arthursays
@13 No problems with calling Nugent a wanker. Don’t know what it’s like where you’re from HappyNat, but where I am the only people who use group descriptors like “Irish *****”, “Pakistani *****”, “Jewish *****” etc are bigots and racists. Like Jeremy Clarkson, who, after abusing his producer with the “Irish ****” descriptor and punching him, faced calls for prosecution for anti-Irish abuse.
That PZ turned his focus on me bullshit is particularly annoying, though. I have not “focused” on him. I have almost entirely ignored him, while he’s been on this obsessive crusade against me.
chigau (違う)says
Maybe he’ll stop if you send him a Leica rangefinder.
maddog1129says
One of the more curious things is the anger over “providing a haven for abusers, harassers and rapists.” Almost without fail, the complainers elide the “abusers ” and “harassers, ” to focus solely on “rapists, ” as if rapists is the only label being applied to people hanging out at Nugent’s blog. The abusers and harassers far outnumber the putative rapist; but it’s the abuse and harassment (and the large population of abusers and harassers, willing to mobilize on a moment’s notice ) that makes any potential rapists feel safe.
gmcardsays
How many of these people complaining bitterly about including “Irish” in that insult due to the continuing English racism against the Irish, despite the insult coming from an American, also vigorously use “c*nt” on American blogs and against Americans in the skeptic/atheist community because it’s “not misogynistic” in the UK or Australia.+
+It is misogynistic there, too.
Drolfesays
Are in fact Irish people insulted by being called Irish, generally speaking? If so, apologies for the question. Or is it like how white people can say Black in such a way it comes across as a slur?
Sorry that’s a bit off-topic.
Rey Foxsays
I think it’s inappropriate. Wanking (if done quietly in the comfort of one’s private space, or with a friend) is completely innocuous and nobody needs to know or care that you’re doing it. Nugent’s actions, in that sense, are almost the opposite of wanking.
“Wanking”, to me at least, has connotations of rudeness and making public an act that should probably not be so. So “wanker” is a different thing than “masturbator”.
As for the “Irish” part, that’s a bit trickier. I think Nugent brings it upon himself to a degree by being the self-declared poobah of atheists in Ireland, but otherwise, arthur’s got a point.
Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaidensays
Michael Nugent:
Ah, Eire! by any other name would poison the discourse!
Wow, this Michael Nugent guy is quite the thinky-type. I like him! I like him almost as much as I like that playwriting master, Bowdler.
PZ:
He is pricked: doth he not wank?
Dammit, see now that was gratuitous. Next thing you know he’ll be so grossly uncultured as to use head-on-a-plate imagery, or make analingus jokes. “What with my tongue in your tale?” indeed.
Where is that Bowdler guy when one needs a verity or two?
embertinesays
The thing I find particularly delicious about this whole farrago is that, for anyone in the skeptic/atheist community who didn’t know that Shermer was likely a rapist, Nugent is bringing those accusations again to the forefront. He may have a policy against naming names, but as everybody else knows exactly what he’s talking about and are not mealy mouthed about discussing it on their own blogs, more and more people are looking up the evidence against Shermer and coming to their own conclusions. As that evidence is pretty damning, I say thanks to Michael Nugent for the signal boost.
antepreprosays
The whole handwringing apoplexy over calling Michael Nugent “Irish” is quite a nice illustration of how thinned skin Nugent is and how ridiculous these complaints are. In context, it is clear what the significance of calling Nugent “The Irish Wanker” is instead of just calling him “The Wanker”: It identifies him without using his name. Much like the “Bicycle Shorts Wearing” in “The Bicycle Shorts Wearing Serial Rapist”. Without that identifier, you might not know what serial rapist I was referring to. Same with Irish.
I am baffled to imagine that Irish is a slur even in the UK, though I do imagine it could very well be used with a snarl (as Drolfe at 21 alluded to). I would be very interested to hear the opinions of someone actually from the UK, or anyone who is actually from Ireland specifically,
As I’m also part Scots/Irish on my father’s side, I find it hard to understand why anyone would think I’d use “Irish” as a slur.
embertinesays
I am just one person from the UK, and so take my opinion with a grain of salt: I can see why calling attention to someone’s race/ethnicity/background in the context of disagreeing with them might not be seen as fair play. The Irish have obviously been discriminated against in UK history, but referring to someone as Irish is no more a slur than pointing out that someone is black (if they are and if it’s an appropriate context to mention it). However, if you are publicly arguing with someone and call them, for example, a “black bastard”, I don’t think many people would think that was OK even if it was a totally accurate description.
However, the fact that Nugent insists on concentrating on this and other forms of tone policing rather than the actual substance of his opponents’ posts is very telling.
I am baffled to imagine that Irish is a slur even in the UK, though I do imagine it could very well be used with a snarl (as Drolfe at 21 alluded to). I would be very interested to hear the opinions of someone actually from the UK, or anyone who is actually from Ireland specifically,
As a British person, I’d be quite wary of using it as part of a derogatory remark. Too much baggage. That ‘No blacks, no Irish, no dogs’ thing is very much still within living memory, as are incidents like this. It’s a highly specific context though. I don’t see how it can apply to non-Britons, as Nugent appears to think it does.
Okidemiasays
I’ve always thought “Irish wanker” was an inverted spoonerism, but apparently, it wasn’t…
Hj Hornbecksays
Fucking hell, Miller’s thread is Exhibit A for why you should be heavy on the moderation. I know some of those commenters are alleged to have engaged in pedophilia, or accidentally admitted they hate women to me; whatever the case, they’re strongly motivated to blur the lines of consent and sexual assault at all costs. People like me, who can’t weigh in with a comment frequently and like to research and take their time, are at a strong disadvantage. The result: a dog-pile where the loudest voices dominate, and more thoughtful stuff gets buried under rape apologetic bullshit.
After I got stuck watching it happen while being unable to weigh in, I got a little angry when I wiggled free. Citations are in the mod queue, so check back if they haven’t popped out yet.
badgersdaughtersays
If he’s the spokesperson for Atheist Ireland, it’s certainly appropriate to think that he makes being Irish a large part of his identity. I’m an Irish immigrant married to an Irish citizen, and we think there’s no particular reason to single our Irish affiliation out in an insult for any reason; it might be more appropriate in someone’s mind to insult us as, in the local vernacular, “yon fat Yank hoor” and “yer man that culchie waster”, in the local vernacular. But Nugent leads with his Irishness, as it were.
Great and accurate analysis. Already, there is a MRA idjit pulling the usual rape apologetics, including it can’t be rape outside of the criminal justice system, which proves AM’s point about those backing MS can’t look at the forest of evidence for the trees of misogyny in the way.
Ashley Miller also has a(nother) severe rash of slymetrolls, mostly beating the Alison-Smith-is-a-drunk-slut drum: an amazingly tedious and tendentious crew of dis-ingénues.
johngregg wants us to “define consent”. What a bunch or scary, scary people. They are tedious in their attempts to use Vulcan logic, stick to dictionary definitions, and use court of law ruling as the only truth, but it frightens me that such people exist in society. Even if they are just playing word games on the internet they are providing cover (or haven as it were) for truly despicable people.
I’m glad Ashley is letting their comments stand, their comments are as damning to themselves as any counter argument could ever be.
The “court of law” argument implies that they think any old awful thing is permitted as long as you can get away with it in court. That’s – worse than scary – and speaks volumes about their sense of what’s right and wrong.
Crystal clear consent.
@4: taken to its logical conclusion, their court-of-law bullshit also precludes anyone ever reaching a court of law, since apparently no accusation can be made if the subject hasn’t already been found guilty…
They are terrible people.
I cross posted #5 Crystal Clear Consent with AM’s blog.
Holy shit, some of the commenters over there…
Great informative post by Ashley though.
I read Ashley’s post on the train earlier, and agree that it is a fair and comprehensive overview of the situation. I’ve been following this fairly closely for the duration.
Michael Nugent was deeply offended by the accusation that he was providing a haven for rapists, misogynists and abusers. And that is a very harmful accusation not to be taken lightly. If it were made at me, I would want to challenge it as vigorously as Nugent.
But Ashley’s post goes a long way to explaining why that the accusation against Nugent was not without grounding, and was not an unreasonable assertion. Assuming Nugent read the witness statements made against Shermer and James Randi’s statement, why on earth would any right thinking person launch blog posts in Shermer’s defence.
Michael Nugent deserved to be criticized for coming out defending Shermer. And several people, including PZ Myers did just that. (He didn’t deserve to be called an “Irish Wanker”, which was out of order, but that’s a whole other matter. )
Nerd, #7
Prepare for some sea-lion “but what if…” scenarios now.
From the Nuge’s latest post:
Self-awareness: zero.
Also:
Sorry Nuge, it is you who has dragged in your own organisation into your ongoing personal vendetta against PZ. Not our fault.
The comments section is a true who-is-who of slymepit assholes. Not going to wade into that quagmire.
I also see DJ and JT have taken the wrong side on this. Again. What is it what accommodationist fuckers and their love for decorum and the status quo? Fuck that shit.
Not going back. Been a long day, and I need a little down time.
Nerd,
Thanks I was going to post the CCC link, but with those fucking guys whats the point? Still good to have it out there to a different audience.
arthur @9
If one walks like an Irish wanker, and talks like an Irish wanker . . . Nuge has been a tedious bore for how many months and how many thousands of words now? I think calling him a wanker is generous.
I think calling him a wanker is generous.
I think it’s inappropriate. Wanking (if done quietly in the comfort of one’s private space, or with a friend) is completely innocuous and nobody needs to know or care that you’re doing it. Nugent’s actions, in that sense, are almost the opposite of wanking. Indeed, perhaps he should let off a little of that bottled up frustration he’s displaying using a good wank, a hot shower, and perhaps a short nap.
Besides, as a half-Irish wanker, I don’t want Nugent to be declared The Irish Wanker. Doubtless there’s plenty of energetic competition for the title, and if his actual wanking is as petulant and effusive as his online activities, he’d be in the competition but far from certain to win.
@13 No problems with calling Nugent a wanker. Don’t know what it’s like where you’re from HappyNat, but where I am the only people who use group descriptors like “Irish *****”, “Pakistani *****”, “Jewish *****” etc are bigots and racists. Like Jeremy Clarkson, who, after abusing his producer with the “Irish ****” descriptor and punching him, faced calls for prosecution for anti-Irish abuse.
http://www.irishpost.co.uk/news/calls-for-clarkson-fracas-to-be-reported-to-police-if-anti-irish-abuse-took-place
PZ calling Nugent an “Irish Wanker” wasn’t one of his finer moments.
Neither is your continuing complaint about it here your finest moment….
Is he not Irish? Is he not a wanker?
That bullshit is particularly annoying, though. I have not “focused” on him. I have almost entirely ignored him, while he’s been on this obsessive crusade against me.
Maybe he’ll stop if you send him a Leica rangefinder.
One of the more curious things is the anger over “providing a haven for abusers, harassers and rapists.” Almost without fail, the complainers elide the “abusers ” and “harassers, ” to focus solely on “rapists, ” as if rapists is the only label being applied to people hanging out at Nugent’s blog. The abusers and harassers far outnumber the putative rapist; but it’s the abuse and harassment (and the large population of abusers and harassers, willing to mobilize on a moment’s notice ) that makes any potential rapists feel safe.
How many of these people complaining bitterly about including “Irish” in that insult due to the continuing English racism against the Irish, despite the insult coming from an American, also vigorously use “c*nt” on American blogs and against Americans in the skeptic/atheist community because it’s “not misogynistic” in the UK or Australia.+
+It is misogynistic there, too.
Are in fact Irish people insulted by being called Irish, generally speaking? If so, apologies for the question. Or is it like how white people can say Black in such a way it comes across as a slur?
Sorry that’s a bit off-topic.
“Wanking”, to me at least, has connotations of rudeness and making public an act that should probably not be so. So “wanker” is a different thing than “masturbator”.
As for the “Irish” part, that’s a bit trickier. I think Nugent brings it upon himself to a degree by being the self-declared poobah of atheists in Ireland, but otherwise, arthur’s got a point.
Michael Nugent:
Wow, this Michael Nugent guy is quite the thinky-type. I like him! I like him almost as much as I like that playwriting master, Bowdler.
PZ:
Dammit, see now that was gratuitous. Next thing you know he’ll be so grossly uncultured as to use head-on-a-plate imagery, or make analingus jokes. “What with my tongue in your tale?” indeed.
Where is that Bowdler guy when one needs a verity or two?
The thing I find particularly delicious about this whole farrago is that, for anyone in the skeptic/atheist community who didn’t know that Shermer was likely a rapist, Nugent is bringing those accusations again to the forefront. He may have a policy against naming names, but as everybody else knows exactly what he’s talking about and are not mealy mouthed about discussing it on their own blogs, more and more people are looking up the evidence against Shermer and coming to their own conclusions. As that evidence is pretty damning, I say thanks to Michael Nugent for the signal boost.
The whole handwringing apoplexy over calling Michael Nugent “Irish” is quite a nice illustration of how thinned skin Nugent is and how ridiculous these complaints are. In context, it is clear what the significance of calling Nugent “The Irish Wanker” is instead of just calling him “The Wanker”: It identifies him without using his name. Much like the “Bicycle Shorts Wearing” in “The Bicycle Shorts Wearing Serial Rapist”. Without that identifier, you might not know what serial rapist I was referring to. Same with Irish.
I am baffled to imagine that Irish is a slur even in the UK, though I do imagine it could very well be used with a snarl (as Drolfe at 21 alluded to). I would be very interested to hear the opinions of someone actually from the UK, or anyone who is actually from Ireland specifically,
As I’m also part Scots/Irish on my father’s side, I find it hard to understand why anyone would think I’d use “Irish” as a slur.
I am just one person from the UK, and so take my opinion with a grain of salt: I can see why calling attention to someone’s race/ethnicity/background in the context of disagreeing with them might not be seen as fair play. The Irish have obviously been discriminated against in UK history, but referring to someone as Irish is no more a slur than pointing out that someone is black (if they are and if it’s an appropriate context to mention it). However, if you are publicly arguing with someone and call them, for example, a “black bastard”, I don’t think many people would think that was OK even if it was a totally accurate description.
However, the fact that Nugent insists on concentrating on this and other forms of tone policing rather than the actual substance of his opponents’ posts is very telling.
anteprepro #25:
As a British person, I’d be quite wary of using it as part of a derogatory remark. Too much baggage. That ‘No blacks, no Irish, no dogs’ thing is very much still within living memory, as are incidents like this. It’s a highly specific context though. I don’t see how it can apply to non-Britons, as Nugent appears to think it does.
I’ve always thought “Irish wanker” was an inverted spoonerism, but apparently, it wasn’t…
Fucking hell, Miller’s thread is Exhibit A for why you should be heavy on the moderation. I know some of those commenters are alleged to have engaged in pedophilia, or accidentally admitted they hate women to me; whatever the case, they’re strongly motivated to blur the lines of consent and sexual assault at all costs. People like me, who can’t weigh in with a comment frequently and like to research and take their time, are at a strong disadvantage. The result: a dog-pile where the loudest voices dominate, and more thoughtful stuff gets buried under rape apologetic bullshit.
After I got stuck watching it happen while being unable to weigh in, I got a little angry when I wiggled free. Citations are in the mod queue, so check back if they haven’t popped out yet.
If he’s the spokesperson for Atheist Ireland, it’s certainly appropriate to think that he makes being Irish a large part of his identity. I’m an Irish immigrant married to an Irish citizen, and we think there’s no particular reason to single our Irish affiliation out in an insult for any reason; it might be more appropriate in someone’s mind to insult us as, in the local vernacular, “yon fat Yank hoor” and “yer man that culchie waster”, in the local vernacular. But Nugent leads with his Irishness, as it were.