The FFRF is going after two schools that have posted this plaque in their building:
The community is outraged, and Fox News is on it!
I found their excuses entertaining.
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We’re in the South, where we’re all soaked in Jesus!
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We’re the majority. Minorities, sit down and shut up.
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This is Texas. The people complaining are in Wisconsin. By what right do Yankees have an interest in the good education of Texans?
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The plaques have been up for two decades. You can’t ever change anything old!
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It’s a War on Christianity, they’re trying to bully us!
But really, my very favoritist argument comes from the pastor they brought on. Remember, the FFRF is arguing that this sectarian Christian message in a public school is a violation of the separation of church and state. So what does Coffmann do? He announces that their whole goal is to proselytize Christianity and defy the Constitution!
We’re all about wanting to see the cause of Christ go further,Pastor Justin Coffman, whose children attend Midlothian ISD schools, explained to Fox News host Ainsley Earhardt.We want to see the cause of Christ in more public arenas in the American culture. We don’t want to take things away from. We want to see Christ in our schools.
These people are idiots. They shouldn’t be allowed within 100 yards of any school, let alone be permitted to dictate what goes on inside.
“The holy Christian church”? Which one???
I spotted this on Reddit and my first thought was “Well who cares what the morons that work at faux news think? Fuck them!” Then I started to think about all the liberally minded and atheist or non-jesus-loving people of texas and thought, “Hrm, that’s kinda fucked up for them.”
Then it dawned on me, if they don’t care enough to speak up, then why should I or anyone else who doesn’t live there? I would never live in a place like that, they are all freely able to move or speak up, run for office, vote out the religious weirdos. I figure it’s their problem, not mine.
Also, fuck Fox news.
Shorter Lutgens: Fuck you, I’ve got mine.
That Ben is because you have the privilege of doing so. Especially if you are free to move and not be economically battered.
Your lack of empathy is noted.
As a Texan, fuck you Ben Lutgens. We do vote. We do speak up. We’re also fucking outnumbered.
And check that privilege of yours. Not everyone wants to move away. Not everyone can afford to move away. Many of us have families and jobs that we actually like and/or enjoy.
I’m not a lawyer, but this plaque seems more a pro forma dedication than active proselytizing. Not sure the FFRF would win if they brought suit.
Not all of us, though since a lot are soaking in it I have to wonder if they’ve ever thought about what they’re soaking in. Then I remember that, based on all the conversations I’ve had with them, I know they’ve given more thought on which pack of socks to buy than they ever did to which religion, if any, might be right.
Your fear of being in the minority and being treated as you treat minorities is showing. You might want to look into that.
Asks the people who’d love to foist their religion onto people in Wisconsin and everywhere else through the power of government, by their own admission. Beyond that, ignorance isn’t limited to geographical boundaries. This is especially so when said boundaries are artificial.
Except the Pledge of Allegiance and the National Anthem.
I know, right! Every single church still open, no one getting pulled over for DWC (Driving While Christian), no one being unable to find a job because they’re religious, and all the other instances of Christians having nothing actually bad happening to them. Man, it’s brutal out there for Christians!
Oh, and Ben at 2, as someone from Alabama your “concern” is noted and has been filed in its proper place. The discomfort you may feel when sitting down should pass. If its doesn’t, well, I figure that’s your problem, not mine.
The host: “… it seems like such a benign message to me”
*Replace Lord with Allah, church with mosque*
The host: “Its an outrage! This is jihad! They are trying to force their faith on us!!!”
To conclude, fuck Fox News!
“We’re all about wanting to see the cause of Christ go further,” Pastor Justin Coffman, whose children attend Midlothian ISD schools, explained to Fox News host Ainsley Earhardt. “We want to see the cause of Christ in more public arenas in the American culture. We don’t want to take things away from. We want to see Christ in our schools.”
I wonder if that will help the FRFF’s case at all?
Also, good luck finding your good buddy Christ wandering around school (doing what, who knows). No one’s seen that asshole since, like, ever.
I get a laugh every time I hear people like this complain about a FFRF action as being from a group a thousand miles away that doesn’t understand the local community/culture. The thing is that the FFRF usually doesn’t get involved unless someone local has made a complaint to them. I may be wrong, but doesn’t it take someone local with “legal standing” to file a lawsuit?
FFRF. B-but, Tpyos, I hit preview and everything!
Ben Lutgens @2:
Speaking out, publicly, against Christian privilege in most of the United States can put a person in personal and professional danger. Hell, even being the wrong kind of Christian (I was a Unitarian) can get one beaten up.
Which assumes, of course, that the job, or career, can be moved, that one is willing to move away from family, that one can sell their home, that one has the money to move. Despite the legal mobility in the United States, the people who can pick up and move are a small minority.
The “why didn’t you move” approach is just victim-blaming.
Ben Lutgens @ 2
Because picking up and moving on a whim, risking backlash from their communities, running for office and swaying an election (assuming you’re able to find time to get to the polls) are all within the means of every individual in the country. Fuck off.
Ben @ 2:
It must be very nice where you live where nothing bad happens because everyone is nice and everyone agrees on everything. I assume, of course, that you are on your local school board, city council, and have an office at your regional capital where you all get along because there are no contentious issues to discuss, right?
Also, must be nice for you to be able to move anywhere you like whenever you like. I guess, though, that it is a bit unfortunate that you have no friends, family, or obligations that could possibly tie you down to a place. I suppose all the money you have that makes moving so easy for you must be a comfort at night.
He wouldn’t know. He just moves some place else every time the sun starts to set.
And then immediately runs for office and starts voting.
I’m just saying, it’s not like anyone is forcing anything on my fellow godless heathens who live in texas. You’re not in prison, you’re not in north korea ffs. It is, in fact, a free and democratic country. I can’t really get all worked up over a sign placed on a government building. Victim blaming eh? That’s a bit of a stretch. As is the privilege statement. Relocating most certainly isn’t a privilege reserved for the 1%. Get over yourselves.
And you’re a dipshit who I wouldn’t piss on if you where on fire. It’s a free country. Put yourself out.
Just saying…
Even if the sign is bigoted and unconstitutional?
Why don’t you get over your apathy, and actually work for something that is non-bigoted and constitutional? Nobody has to relocate because of the sign, because the sign should be removed, as any constitutional lawyer would tell you. This isn’t rocket science, but if you aren’t part of the solution, you are part of the problem. And at the moment, you are part of the problem.
Take your own advice.
@Ben Lutgens #19
Ah the old “its not as bad as ” routine. You can’t get worked up, good for you! It bothers other people and it is unconstitutional. If its a free and democratic country, let people exercise their right to be pissed off and their right to do something about it.
” Relocating most certainly isn’t a privilege reserved for the 1%”
Sounds like something someone from the 1% would say (or at least someone with the same detachment from reality about all the things that go into relocation on a whim)
Ben, #20
What’s your point?
This is the second time today I’ve read the whole “Tha’s just the way things is done down hee-yah in the South” bullshit. Slate’s advice columnist told an advice seeker who was whining because one of his subordinates isn’t too keen on being called babe that people should just deal with being called sweetie and hon “cuz tha’s jus’ how they do things down they-ah in the South and it ain’t meant ta be harrassin'”.
What the fuck? If traveling below the Mason Dixon means you just have to put up with being called honey babe and the stuff PZ mentioned above because it is some cultural thing, then fuck the south. It’s like the entirety of the population down there is my fucking grandparents: “Grandpa comes from another time and that’s just what they called Hispanic people when he was a kid…”
ah.. damn formatting for HTML tags! That should have read:
“its not as bad as *some example of a theocracy and/or dictatorship* ” routine
One of my parents is a pretty dedicated right-winger. I’ve been complained at for not paying any attention to the news, WHILE I was reading the New York Times. Was not meant as any sort of ding on the NYT, it was just that, in their mind, it might as well have been a comic book.
And one of them told me that they can no longer read works of fiction. Because, invariably, there is always a character in it who is wrong about something. They find the concept of ‘someone being wrong’ unbearable. To quote: “I can’t stand it when someone is wrong, particularly when what is right is always so obvious.”
I should point out that they are not suffering from dementia.
Ben Lutgens @ 19
Your inability to understand what words mean when you use them in combination with other words doesn’t make your “it’s their own fault for living there” not victim blaming.
Words! I still don’t know how they work!! Thinking that picking up and relocating on a whim is a thing that absolutely anybody has the means to do is privilege exemplified.
You’re the one wondering why you should care about anything not directly affecting you, diddums. Not us.
Ben, #20
No, it isn’t. It’s a milder form, sure, but victim-blaming nonetheless.
We have one side putting their religious garbage on public buildings and the other side wanting it to stop. Your response is to criticize the latter for living there. That’s victim-blaming.
Here’s an interesting photo of the aforementioned dedication plaque:
http://media.nbcdfw.com/images/1200*675/midlothian-plaque-protest.jpg
Evidently the Free Masons also wanted to advertise… ;^)
Looks like there’s plenty of room for a secular dedication plaque too. Wonder what the building’s cornerstone says?
First rule of holes man, first rule of holes.
And to repeat myself, and paraphrase several other commenters, some of use have things that tie us to Texas. All of my family is there. All of Mr. Rawnaeris’ family are there. Most of our friends are there.
Why the hell should we have to move just because some people are bigots? We’re working to change Texas to make it friendlier to non-xtians. But that doesn’t happen in a vacuum, which is where organizations that are *national* like the FFRF become helpful.
/climbs down off soapbox
Ben @2: ” I would never live in a place like that, they are all freely able to move or speak up, run for office, vote out the religious weirdos. I figure it’s their problem, not mine.”
And this is why it takes so long to change our institutions when they are wrong. If you leave it to be SombodyElsesProblem, it won’t change. It will never change until someone, many someones, work to make a change.
Is Ben from the United States?
Yeah, atheists should just get their own city/state/country/continent, so they may no longer be a despised minority. The US is a Christian Nation. Maybe Ben’s going to have to follow his own argument and move.
First I would like to congratulate people living in heavy conservative areas! It is difficult to daily be exposed to all the digs, slights, misinformation and occasional outright hostility. When people believe they are morally superior a lot of us suffer.
I sometimes question taking on battles such as the plaque is it worth it? Should we pick our battles more judiciously or use more strategic maneuvering to attain our goal? I am aware we must continually struggle against the the constant push of religiosity I am not saying we should roll over but maybe we can subvert the hogwash in better ways.
And there is always an underlying liberal agenda. Every movie has one, even pap like “Avatar”, total political propaganda, according to some.
Yeah, atheists should just get their own city/state/country/continent, so they may no longer be a despised minority
That’s not at all what I’m saying. My point is that there are better places to live so you don’t have to feel so threatened and despised. It’s not as if the holybook-worshipping-zealots are suddenly going to go, “ya know what, they’re right, we’re being a bunch of douchebags.” and just stop with their nonsense.
bah, tags didn’t get included for quoting the previous post. dammit.
I suppose Ben would have told those in the south circa 1950 to quit complaining about something as silly as a burning cross in their yard. After all, its pretty, and you don’t like it you can move. After all, you have so little, wouldn’t take any time at all to pack…
Yes Ben, sorry, but your privilege is showing in massive ways. Take off the blinders bud.
Yup, and I’m not gay, so gay rights aren’t my problem. Etc.
But it is fallacious to think that, just because something isn’t “your problem” that it is then automatically and always right to do nothing to fix the problem.
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@Ben Lutgens
First, I’m not sure what gave you the impression that no one is speaking up.
But more importantly, it’s fairly basic psychology that humans try to improve their circumstances. So if you think they aren’t doing that, didn’t it ….I dunno…occur to you that there would be a reason that such people are not speaking up/moving? Or does your brain get the blue screen of death every time one of your assumptions don’t fit the evidence?
Nonsense like this reminds me why so many of the “community standards” and “states’ rights” arguments amount to so much bullshit. As if somehow the Constitution is just a little less binding in certain regions of the country.
Still, when it comes to inappropriate plaques in public buildings, I think Judge Roy Moore and the two-and-a-half ton granite tribute to his own stubbornness takes the top spot.
@19 Ben
I’ve got this great shovel for sale. Hardly used, and it’ll make your job so much easier.
Incidentally, point noted. Because moving isn’t reserved for multi-billionaires, there are no impediments to people upping sticks whenever they feel like it and finding the greener grass. QED. /sarc
Why the fuck should someone move from their city/county/state in which they pay tax and are supposed to be legally indistinguishable from Christians? Does the city/county/state belong more to Christians than to them?
Wait, wait… let me try something…
Yes, that’ll do just fine.
the exact thing I said before without taking into account any of the objections raised to it. Now I will spend several more comments defending my smug and lazy defeatism.
Not needed.
David:
The right one. Duh.
Ben Lutgen @ 36
A) You’re lying. Your first two posts are still visible for everyone to read. B) Let’s pretend your first two posts aren’t still there: why is this a useful observation?
Maybe they won’t be convinced, but if others refuse to capitulate to their demands, they can be completely ineffectual douchebags instead of highly influential ones.
Ben Lutgens,
And if you happen to be a non-Christian schoolkid whose parents happen to agree with the sentiment expressed in the plaques, you can just totes get up and move to Heathenland, right?
Dear Christina….
” Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly. ” –Isaac Asimov.
You DO live in a place like that, Ben.
We all do.
@49 Jafafa Hots — you win the Internets for the day, hands down! Slow clap.
Paramad51 @34:
One of my goals, one of my political/social goals, is to eliminate the privileged position Christianity has in the United States. All of the United States. That plaque is, no question, the use of government property to promote religion — which the federal courts have found, again and again, to be unConstitutional. Allowing any overt act which uses all taxpayer’s money to promote Christianity, no matter how small, no matter how minor, encourages Christian privilege and makes it even more difficult to win the larger battles. Would you make the argument that, well, a little drunk driving is okay? A little torture is okay? That we should ignore sexual assault and concentrate only on rape? That a blatantly unConstitutional plaque on a building paid for by all taxpayers which promotes religion, specifically Christianity, is small potatoes and we should concentrate on the really important stuff? Oh, wait, you did make that last argument.
So, what are the issues that are more important than making sure that the Constitution of the United States of America applies to all?
Here’s another example of a dedication plaque with possible First Amendment issues at Purdue University earlier this year:
http://www.christianpost.com/news/donor-wins-first-amendment-dispute-to-have-god-on-university-plaque-115754/
Honestly, this plaque doesn’t warrant a lawsuit, and I don’t think the one in Midlothian, TX does either.
Ben Lutgens:
Ah, so it is not something you can dismiss as unproblematic in a supposedly “free and democratic country” (which you claimed was a fact). Your point wasn’t clear. Indeed, I’m fairly sure that Texas is not a country and that you know this, so you seem to be realizing to some extent that this is about the US and its laws (not to mention the integrity of its education system — I won’t assume you think about such things) not just some specific spot with its wacky and totally harmless customs. Yet you don’t say that; instead, what you say amounts to “I’m going to tell myself everything is okay, so I’ll feel good.”
David, #52,
What would the religious message on a public school have to be to warrant a lawsuit in your view?
Might as well pile on Lutgens too.
Even if every adult DID have the ability to just pick up and leave (even though they shouldn’t have to), these placards are posted in schools, presumably some of the people who have problems with them are children who have no real agency about where and how they live. But fuck them, I guess they don’t count.
If you can’t tell the difference between a generic minor mention of god, and blatant specific mention of the Christian god several times, you don’t understand why one is OK and the other isn’t.
Saad @ 54:
IANAL, but IMO it would not be a matter of content as much as exclusion. The presence of the Freemasony symbol on the adjacent plaque suggests that said dedication plaque does not exclude other plaques making dedications that may or may not involve a particular faith. It’s rather like permitting a Christian prayer to open a public meeting, and then permitting an atheist to do an invocation the next, which is o.k. under current law.
Ben Lutgens #2
Assumes facts not in evidence. I’m just going to name some alternative possibilities off the top of my head:
1) People would have objected, except they’re unaware of the existence of the plaque.
2) People want to object, but don’t, for fear of antagonizing the Christian majority and risking job loss or social fallout for themselves and their kids.
3) People are objecting, but since they didn’t have the money for a lawsuit, it never made the news.
That’s three explanation that don’t have anything to do with people not caring. Three reasons why you’re wrong on just that one point.
#19
It’s not a choice between “reserved for the 1%” and “no privilege at all”. Fact is that relocating takes money that a lot of people don’t have. The ability to just move because you want to is very much a privilege and if you don’t realize that, then I can only assume that you’re completely ignorant of the economic realities that a lot of people have to face.
Even if you insist on this bullshit idea of privilege, I hope you’re not stupid enough to claim that everyone can afford to move. Surely you’re still sufficiently in touch with reality to realize that there are some people who can’t afford it, right?
So, what about them? Are they just fucked? Don’t they deserve our help? Just because they don’t make up 99% of the population, you won’t help defend their rights?
#36
So? When people break the law, we don’t just go “oh well” and let them. We get the courts involved and stop them. You know, kinda like what’s happening here.
Seriously, are you even listening to yourself? I think you should take a break and get your head in order. You’re not making any sense.
Hey, it’s just the internet. That’s the way things are here. If you try to change it, you’re a social justice warrior!
Oh…wait…This is The South and how atheists are treated there?
Then, this is clearly wrong and something should be done immediately. Certain minorities in certain places should not have to tolerate this sort of chilly climate and open antagonism.
Religious people are the worst, amirite?
/s
The Catholic one, probably, since there’s Latin on that sign.
This is Texas. The people complaining are in Wisconsin. By what right do Yankees have an interest in the good education of Texans?
This is funny. The woman running the Walker campaign is from Texas/Florida. I am from New Jersey/Maryland. I guess she has a right to make comments about our IQ, but according to these other people, living in Wisconsin means I don’t have any right to comment on theirs.
Absolutely ass-inine.
It’s not as if Protestants never used Latin, or that Catholics still do routinely after Vatican II, so that’s already some pretty weak evidence. Anyway, that specific phrase is associated with the Reformation, so it’s probably not Catholics (Roman or otherwise), because it’s supposed to stand opposed to traditionally-Catholic doctrines.
Last I checked, the Constitution applied to all the states, not just Wisconsin.
I love the lead-in to the next story. “If you don’t pay your water bill, you don’t get your water”. I’m pretty sure they were saying the opposite about grazing fees a few months ago.
I remember that one of the things that set off an escalation of protest and struggle for civil rights was a protest for something less important than voting rights it was riding in the back of a public bus . Blacks could ride the bus but had to ride in the rear even if there were seats forward. why should they live where they are treated like that? Were they not citizens of the United States? Why should it be OK to be driven out of your community because some hate you even if you do nothing that is against any just law ?
Then what good are rights under law?
I suspect that this fellow here has just not thought this through and reacted but can’t admit he might have spoke too soon.
I am under the impression that Texas is not a high tax state and does not spend a lot of money on education and may allow local groups to support their schools. If that is true that may explain the plaques as we can see there are at least 2, kind of like buying a brick with some value of donation.
That does not in any way excuse the government supporting any religion which is against the law.
uncle frogy
let me try that last part again.
That does not in any way exempt the government through the public schools from the law to not support any religion.
better?
uncle frogy
Southern Christians – wanting more Jesus in their schools, communities, etc. but only if those Jesus’es don’t come from south of the Rio Grande.
The Evil Twin #27
You know, I can empathize with the bolded part, really I can; people being insistently wrong about blatantly obvious things is pretty fucking annoying. The thing is, I am able to conceptualize the idea that things that are blatantly obvious to me may be 1)not actually true, and 2) not blatantly obvious to someone coming from a considerably different background to mine, who will consider things blatantly obvious that mystify me. I’m also able to distinguish between fictional people in fictional places and real people who actually do real things. If I’m reading a novel in which, say, the protagonist is a member of a feudal warrior aristocracy, said protagonist will undoubtedly have any number of beliefs and values that are wildly at variance from mine, but which are common and expected in that milieu. I can accept that many things which are blatantly, obviously wrong to me are not visible to such a person unless they’ve specifically sought to think about it. And, since the person in question isn’t real, I let it the fuck go and enjoy the story. This seems to be something that conservatives aren’t very good at. That and the distinguishing fictional characters from real people bit.
They shouldn’t be allowed within 100 yards of any school…
Memo to National Education Association: Per orders of PZ Myers on 10/23/14, re-education personnel must be re-assigned elsewhere and the Mid-Lothian FEMA facility will consist of only a detention camp.
Otherwise, The Plan® continues as previously detailed.
Ben #19:
Did I miss something? How did this suddenly become about you?
Kevin @ 63
Not it Scott Walker and company have anything todo about it.
I assume that Ben Lutgens is one of those dictionary atheists who are morally opposed to doing or caring about anything ever under the banner of atheism. Even absolutely minimal, basic secularism is a bridge too far for Ben.
ck, #72
Even worse: He’s taking the religious bullying side by saying “If you don’t like it, you can leave.”
OOhhh, where did I hear that? Oh right, those opposing the ‘Nam war protests. Troglodytes.
Response to Ben in general: I live in E. Texas, in a small town, and my seven year old attends public school. I’m not going anywhere. I like my job. I like the people in my small, conservative backwards town, even if they are misguided politically and religiously. As a citizen, I reserve the right to make where I live a better place. It’s an uphill battle, but it’s worth it. And for what it’s worth there are lots of us working on this kind of thing, but this kind of thing is pervasive and insidious and there is much more of it than there are of us.
Also, Midlothians! *shakes fist*
Saad wrote:
Virtually all of the dictionary atheists, tone trolls, and status quo defenders do this. It always amounts to “Shut up!”
They have such a solid argument: it’s been in place for nearly 20 years. What right does anyone have to change things? Abortion has been the law of the land for 41 years — more than twice as long, and yet state after state has been chipping away at it or outright banning it as in Mississippi.
I’m proud to announce that my home state of Tennessee is voting on an amendment to allow open season on abortion. It’s very specific about what it wants to make illegal (along with abortion clinics and possibly contraception). We have to eliminate loopholes for rape, incest, and the life of the mother (which we know God wouldn’t allow unless she’s atheist). When we went to vote today, an amendment supporter stopped us to explain that the amendment would keep the Government out of the process and put the decision into the hands of the People. She didn’t seem to understand that the only two people who matter are the woman and her doctor. I got a blank stare when I asked about ectopic pregnancies. I suppose in that case, the mother should die.
Midlothian? That’s a new one on me. Sounds like something out of a Thor comic.
Midlothians? Isn’t that what gives the Jedi their power?
The Midlothians used to live in Gondor.
Don’t even get me started on the shenanigans that go on in Farlothian.