Comments

  1. Antiochus Epiphanes says

    Idk, John. I thought aaronbaker’s 669 (previous thread) was eloquent and evocative. YMMV, I guess.

  2. says

    This topic prompts me to mention that I twice had a conversation with someone shortly before they committed suicide (I’ve already thought of all the obvious jokes). In each conversation, the person asked me for reasons to remain alive–and both times I gave it the best shot I could.

    I can conclude NOTHING WHATSOEVER about their rationality or irrationality. Both were emotionally disturbed and desperately unhappy; it’s quite possible, given what little I knew of them, that they were unlikely to improve significantly. I know from my own experience that this belief, “It will just never get better,” has pushed me closer to suicide all by itself. Sometimes the belief is an illusion–sometimes, sadly, it’s completely accurate.

    To quote a poet: “He hates him/That would upon the rack of this tough world/
    Stretch him out longer.”

  4. anteprepro says

    Anne’s World, a new sci-fi series about a dystopian future!

    Changes will take effect 6 months from today. No-Fault Divorce is gone. In order to obtain a divorce, the plaintiff must show abuse or neglect of spouse or children, or adultery.

    You can only divorce your abusive husband if you can prove that he is abusive and are willing to risk provoking him by bringing him to court about it. And if it turns out that your marriage was a mistake, that you don’t really care about each other and simply felt obliged to marry because certain state officials and state-endorsed sex education classes demanded that one get married before ever experiencing sex? Too bad, together forever.

    Anne’s World is a world of silenced fears and constrained choices.

    Marriage is defined as one man and one woman. Current relationships not meeting that definition, yet recognized as a marriage, are immediately dissolved.

    Marriage is whatever The Leader says it is. All other marriages will be terminated. All other definitions will be put down the memory hole. It was always this way and all evidence to the contrary will be dutifully expunged.

    Anne’s World is a world of historical myopia and dictionary-thumping homophobia.

    A parent is defined as a biological mother or father, adoptive mother or father, step-mother or step-father, foster mother or foster father. A homosexual may be recognized as a parent only if they are the biological mother or father.

    Homosexuals are not permitted to become foster parents, adoptive parents, or step-parents, due to the highly infectious nature of Teh Ghey. All Homosexuals will be lovingly permitted to remain living in The Gay Quarantine, a ghetto that is also the name of a nightclub.

    Anne’s World is a world of fetishizing parenthood and arbitrary homophobia.

    Procreation by those living openly in a homosexual relationship is discouraged, and repeated offenses by homosexuals will subject them to criminal penalties. Any person, homosexual or otherwise, who knowingly assists a homosexual in becoming pregnant, or with the procurement of a child, with the intent of that child being raised as part of a homosexual “family”, will be guilty of a felony, if convicted.

    !!!!!?

    Anne did all the work on that one for me.

    The use of ART or surrogacy will be confined to married heterosexual couples, who have been married for at least one year. It is illegal to obtain or provide ART or surrogacy services by or to any non-married individuals or couples, or same-sex individuals or couples. Sperm banks are also forbidden from providing donor sperm to non-approved couples or individuals.

    Only The Glorious Straight Race are permitted to use state breeding facilities. Any Non-Straights caught breeding will be shot on sight. Please remember that every sperm is sacred.

    Anne’s World is a world of homophobic gametes and bureaucratic births.

    Sex change operations and hormone replacement therapy are banned. If a person wishes to go to another country to obtain such services, they will surrender their US citizenship.

    GENITALIA IS ABSOLUTE. GENITALIA IS THE LAW. ANY DEVIATION FROM GENITALIA WILL BE PUNISHED.

    Anne’s World is a world of utter transphobia and sexual simplemindedness.

    Alternate lifestyles such as homosexuality or transgenderism in one’s private life will not be made illegal, but expression of those lifestyles shall remain private. Further, propaganda portraying alternate lifestyles in a positive light will be banned.

    The First Commandment is Thou Shalt Portray Those Not of The Glorious Straight Race As Anything But Inferior. Glorify them, or even hint at the idea that homosexuals and transexuals are people too, and The Leader will find you and convince you of the error of your ways. With Glorious Bullets.

    Anne’s World is a world of media domination and dogmatic censorship.

    Corporal punishment will be re-instituted in public schools

    The beatings will continue, until morale improves.

    Anne’s World is a world of retrograde childrearing and violent education.

    Schools will have at least one teacher or administrator per wing, trained, licensed, and in possession of a concealed weapon.

    The natural way to make schools safer is to have a loaded firearm in every room.

    Anne’s World is a world of cowboy teachers and perfect gun safes.

    Prayer is a reasonable form of religious expression and will be allowed in public schools.

    Annejones is a clueless right-wing git who has no idea what she is fucking talking about.

    Anne’s World reflects that fact.

    If macro-evolution, Universal Common Ancestry, is taught, it must be taught as a belief akin to Creation Theory, until such a time as it is proven to be the origin of biological life on earth. The same applies to any theoretical claims for the origin of the universe.

    All is doubt, nothing is known, abandon mortal logic, embrace the chaos.

    Anne’s World is a world of selective science and esteemed idiocies.

    All hate crimes legislation shall be abolished. All violent crimes are hate crimes, and more severe penalties will be handed down for violent crimes.

    There is no such thing as minority discriminaton and no need to protect minorities from violence based on bigotry and prejudice. Because all violence is violence and equally unacceptable. Except when a teacher is doing it.

    Anne’s World is a world of Neo-nazis and lynch mobs.

    Discrimination should be discouraged, however property rights and ownership must be respected. A business owner, landlord, etc., shall not be required to employ or rent to, anyone that he doesn’t see as a good fit.

    Property rights trump personal rights. Separate but equal was acceptable. The back of the bus isn’t so bad after all.

    Anne’s World is a world of government finger-wagging in the face of Segregation Two.

    Public displays such as the Ten Commandments and nativity scenes will be allowed on public property as no one is harmed by their presence. Anyone filing suit on religious grounds must show actual physical or mental damages caused by the alleged action.

    There is no separation of church and state, as long as it is MY church, and as long the influence is only one way!

    Anne’s World is a world of budding theocracy and Christian privilege.

    Any building, public or private, may require registration of concealed weapons upon entry, but may not ban, or otherwise interfere with, a legal carrier of a registered weapon without cause.

    Guns need to be everywhere. In every movie theater, every lecture hall, every courtroom and office building. Guns need to be there, or you are not properly worshipping the state!

    Anne’s World is a world without accidental discharges and without first offenses.

    Anne’s World: A new Syfy original series, airing this fall!

  5. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    F.

    A long response to anonymous 1 just got eaten by the comment system when PZ instituted the new thread.

    Sigh.

    Anonymous, you may not get a response to your longer comment. I just may not have the spoons.

  6. Pteryxx says

    It’s a new thread. Maybe some rest breaks all around are in order.

    (now to catch up on reading…)

  7. anonymous1 says

    Crip Dyke @5,

    obviously (i hope), that’s fine. i lost a draft of two very long but related posts a few days ago. one was to the general thread: Stunned Silence and the other was addressing O’s post (and some of the replies to it) here. it was quite frustrating, especially because i’m not nearly as clear or succinct now (in either my thinking or my language). (it was also frustrating because i haven’t talked about any of it yet, nor am i sure i’ll ever be up to it here.) i’m glad that you aren’t going to continue to participate if it’s not a good time now (or ever).

    thanks for the discussion.

  8. says

    Thank you, anteprepro, that was delicious. This concludes our series on “How to Make The Handmaid’s tale Sound Like a Librul Utopia: Let Anne Choose”.

  9. anonymous1 says

    @7

    i’m glad that you aren’t going to continue to participate if it’s not a good time now (or ever).

    to clarify, by (or ever), i meant that i don’t think you have any obligation to continue the discussion with me. if you and i both want to at some other time, great. if not, that’s fine too. sorry for the ambiguity (which i only realized after i posted my comment).

  10. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    It just ate my comment again, saying I wasn’t logged in when I can see the “howdy crop dyke” message from wordpress at the top of the page.

    I’m not going to try again right now. Sorry anonymous.

  11. Portia says

    CD:

    Sometimes, if you just click back on your browser when you get that “You must be logged in” page, the comment is still in the box, unsent, and you can copy it, log in, and paste it.

  12. carlie says

    I sort of wonder how Anne would plan to deal with intersex people in her world.

    But then again, I think I really don’t want to know.

  13. anonymous1 says

    Crip Dyke @10

    i’m sorry that you lost your comment. i’m probably too drained and out of it to continue a productive discussion right now in any event. so if you do end up posting a reply to me and i don’t reply, it’s not because of animus (or anything you’ve said). i hope that’s ok.

  14. Rob Grigjanis says

    aaronbaker @3:

    Uh-oh, I’ve quoted poetry again and annoyed John Morales. I’ll pack up and go home now.

    No! This place needs more poetry.

    I went to the Garden of Love,
    And saw what I never had seen;
    A Chapel was built in the midst,
    Where I used to play on the green.

    And the gates of this Chapel were shut,
    And ‘Thou shalt not’ writ over the door;
    So I turned to the Garden of Love
    That so many sweet flowers bore.

    And I saw it was filled with graves,
    And tombstones where flowers should be;
    And Priests in black gowns were walking their rounds,
    And binding with briars my joys & desires.

    William Blake, The Garden of Love.

  15. Pteryxx says

    I’ve been getting intermittent “site is down” messages, too. Sometimes that’s just me…

  16. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @portia, 11, I tried. It wasn’t there.

    @anonymous1, no worries. A major benefit of Pharyngula for me is that we can disagree without animus…which means I get to hear intelligent disagreement more often…which means I get to change my mind on issues more often…which means I get to be a better person more often.

  17. Tony! The Immorally Inferior Queer Shoop! says

    Anteprepro:
    Good thing Anne’s World is a miniseries.
    If that was a movie, how could they top themselves for a followup since they usually up the ante for a sequel?

    Or howzabout a prequel?

  19. Tony! The Immorally Inferior Queer Shoop! says

    I’ve been thinking about some recent comments round Pharyngula about the Dome. Specifically some of those who never come here. What do they imagine it is like?

  20. John Morales says

    Rob, ah, the Garden of Love (whatever that is) has changed since William last visited it.

    Um, does it refer to entropy? To human fallibility or mortality? To religion poisoning everything?

    Beats me.

    (Might as well be noise)

  21. says

    Tony, I can maybe speak to that a bit, as I’ve been looking on from the outside for several months, and only just a few days ago posted in one for the first time.

    I’ve popped in a few times before, and found some really brutal slanging matches going on (don’t remember the topics, but proper hammer-and-tongs stuff), and I’m a fair bit conflict-avoidant, especially when the people I might be conflicting with are people I want to continue to respect and like as I already do. Also, those people may well not be looking at their best, as we’ve seen even today, and I didn’t necessarily want to spoil my impression of those folks.

    So from the outside, with small experience, it looks like a place where people go to just have at one another in awful, little-to-do-with-the-issues ways.

    From the inside, it doesn’t look like that all the time. But the frequency is not so uncommon as to be unlikely to find in a small sample, if I’m making sense. So if they only stick their heads in once in a while, they may well think it’s basically “the Horde vs n00bs, and we’ve disarmed the n00bs and gave their pitchforks to the Horde”.

    FWIW.

  23. The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical says

    Tony

    I’ve been thinking about some recent comments round Pharyngula about the Dome. Specifically some of those who never come here. What do they imagine it is like?

    Obvious answer.

    I’d avoid it if Mel Gibson was in here, too.

  25. anteprepro says

    If that was a movie, how could they top themselves for a followup since they usually up the ante for a sequel?

    Anne’s World II: The Purgening

    Tagline:
    It’s 200 Years Beyond 1984…
    And Yet Still No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition

  26. Pteryxx says

    So from the outside, with small experience, it looks like a place where people go to just have at one another in awful, little-to-do-with-the-issues ways.

    Originally, it was. Then potentially triggering stories started getting placed here rather than the Lounge, both news and personal, and then hug-fests started breaking out, and now the whole place has periodic floods of empathy and decency. It’s downright bizarre. ;>

  28. Tony! The Immorally Inferior Queer Shoop! says

    CaitieCat:
    Hmm, that makes sense. Thanks.
    Btw, I realized I’ve misspelled your nym a few times (can’t recall where), usually missing the first ‘i’. Sorry about that.

    ****

    anteprepro:
    Ok. That was good (my brain immediately thought of Highlander 2: The Quickening for some odd reason).
    Now though, what would the final part of the trilogy be like? Especially taking into account the perception held by many that Part 3’s suck (which has me wondering what would make the audience for Anne’s World 3-D think it sucked…sorry, I’ll stop)

  29. Portia says

    The ‘Dome is really not earning it’s reputation, that’s true.

    How’s this:

    All y’all suck.

    …

    I’m sorry, I didn’t mean it please have some hugs.

  31. says

    Tony, thank you, but I’m not desperately bothered about it. It happens a lot. Honestly, so long as people are referring to me as something vaguely Kate-like, and I’m able to recognize it as intended for me, I don’t mind if they spell it with three m’s and a silent q. :)

  33. says

    Harmonie du soir

    Voici venir les temps où vibrant sur sa tige
    Chaque fleur s’évapore ainsi qu’un encensoir;
    Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l’air du soir;
    Valse mélancolique et langoureux vertige!

    Chaque fleur s’évapore ainsi qu’un encensoir;
    Le violon frémit comme un coeur qu’on afflige;
    Valse mélancolique et langoureux vertige!
    Le ciel est triste et beau comme un grand reposoir.

    Le violon frémit comme un coeur qu’on afflige,
    Un coeur tendre, qui hait le néant vaste et noir!
    Le ciel est triste et beau comme un grand reposoir;
    Le soleil s’est noyé dans son sang qui se fige.

    Un coeur tendre, qui hait le néant vaste et noir,
    Du passé lumineux recueille tout vestige!
    Le soleil s’est noyé dans son sang qui se fige…
    Ton souvenir en moi luit comme un ostensoir!

    — Charles Baudelaire

    Pick your own translation.

  34. John Morales says

    morgan:

    Oh Maude forbid! Not empathy and decency? The shame, the shame.

    Relax.

    I’m still here.

    (FWIW, empathy and decency are powerful techniques, when properly employed)

  36. anteprepro says

    Ok. That was good (my brain immediately thought of Highlander 2: The Quickening for some odd reason).

    I must have been subconsciously influenced by it. I was tempted to just make it “Electric Boogaloo”. Watched too much Daily Show five years ago!

    Now though, what would the final part of the trilogy be like? Especially taking into account the perception held by many that Part 3′s suck (which has me wondering what would make the audience for Anne’s World 3-D think it sucked…sorry, I’ll stop)

    Well I was also thinking of having an Anne’s World Zero: Batshit Anne Begins.
    But for Part Three, the one that jumps the shark and makes the fans of the original hate it, let’s make it…

    Anne’s World War III, which is mostly about Anne’s World being discovered by a slightly alien race, who see the world she has made, and respond with “Kill It With FIRE!”. Then we discover that the alien race lives in an actual utopia that turns out to be another alternate reality Earth. And then get bombed to death by The Transdimensional Empire of SPACE AMERICA, which have soldiers in the final frames, looking at documents from Anne’s Grand World Government, tossing it on the ground and saying it’s Too Librul.

    -Fin-

  37. anteprepro says

    (FWIW, empathy and decency are powerful techniques, when properly employed)

    All I can imagine is some gamers on X-Box Live or something, shouting:
    “I’m gonna decency the shit outta you!”

  39. says

    You can not on one hand argue that it’s impossible to consent to having sex while you are drunk and then on the opposite hand argue that it IS possible to consent to DIEING while depressed, both are altered states of mind in which rational decision making is not possible.

    Way to fucking dehumanize people with depression. Yeah, let’s take their basic human rights away from them, clearly they’re not capable of making decisions for themselves and they need the erics of the world to make those decisions for them.

  40. ledasmom says

    Poetry? How about a little Thomas Hardy?

    “‘Peace upon earth!’ was said. We sing it,
    And pay a million priests to bring it.
    After two thousand years of mass
    We’ve got as far as poison-gas.

  41. says

    Dear Horde of the Thunderdome,

    I’m having a bit of cognitive dissonance here due to all the “Anne’s World” posts. The posts are things of beauty and wit. The inspiration for them, annejones, however, is neither, and seeing her thoughts, even mockingly, attributed to “Anne” is, frankly, giving me the wiggins.

    So if you wouldn’t mind, could you please call it “Anne Jones’ World” in future? I really don’t want to share anything with those ideas, even by coincidence. Thanks ever so.

    *goes back to lurking in a safe corner*

  43. anteprepro says

    I think we’re about done with it, but yes, I will make sure if I make any further reference to it, it will be Annejones’ World. But God help anyone who happens to also be named Anne Jones!

  44. Arawhon says

    If someone made anne world into a movie, the perfect end credit would be something along the lines of saying that there are groups currently in the USA who want the world to be exactly as shown and then list them. I wonder how many fence sitters would suddenly stop voting for christofascists.

  45. morgan says

    Will do, Anne D. Actually, I thought of this a while ago because my twin sister’s middle name is Anne (she uses it, sometimes) and I couldn’t picture her being as obtuse and hateful as the T-Dome’s Annejones. Neither are you.

  46. Esteleth, statistically significant to p ≤ 0.001 says

    Dylan Thomas?

    Do not go gentle into that good night,
    Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

    Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
    Because their words had forked no lightning they
    Do not go gentle into that good night.

    Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
    Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

    Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
    And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
    Do not go gentle into that good night.

    Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
    Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

    And you, my father, there on the sad height,
    Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
    Do not go gentle into that good night.

    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

  48. says

    Hi all,

    I’m a faithful lurker of Pharyngula. I’m having a Facebook argument about evolution with an idiot. He stated the following and I can’t make heads or tails of it. Can any of you?

    8 billion species live on the earth today. 99.9% of all species that have lived are thought to have gone extinct. So that roughly amounts to 800 billion species. Good so far? The earth, near as we can tell, is 4.5 billion years old. Life on earth, near as we can tell, started 3.5 billion years ago. Not a rocket scientist; but if species take millions of years to evolve, the formula of 800/3.5 produces about 230 new species a year… not a new species every million years. The math for evolution simply doesn’t work, or rather it is off by a magnitude of a few hundred million degrees. Unless, of course, there was a rapid explosion of species different from their parents (as is thought) – which Dawkins in his stupid mind fart experiment attempted to stupidly say “never happens.”

  50. omnicrom says

    Your creationist counterpart is attempting to use Math. Badly.

    99.9% of all species that have lived are thought to have gone extinct. So that roughly amounts to 800 billion species

    Herein lies the first lie. Many of the species that your creationist counterpart dismisses as “extinct” have actually evolved into new species. When we say that 99.9% of all lifeforms on the Earth no longer exist it is because many of them became new species over the millions of years. 99.9% of all species did not go extinct by dying out, therefore your counterpart’s anti-thought experiment is dead on its face.

    …but if species take millions of years to evolve…

    Herein lies the second lie. Your creationist counterpart is disingenuously being ignorant of HOW species arise by assuming that all species must arise ex nihilo. No, species arise from previous species. If there are a million species than given a million years there will be a new million species. Your creationist counterpart’s anti-thought experiment is double-dead on its face.

  52. Rob Grigjanis says

    Michelle Rogers @48: This says there are 8.7 million species. Factors of a thousand don’t mean much to creationists. Also, I suspect speciation is more exponential than linear in general, but with several mass extinctions thrown in to complicate things.

  54. Menyambal --- flinging the squaler says

    ledasmom, thank you for the Thomas Hardy. I think my _Wodehouse_ audiobook mentions him, but I hadn’t caught the name.

  55. John Morales says

    Michelle,

    Not a rocket scientist; but if species take millions of years to evolve, the formula of 800/3.5 produces about 230 new species a year… not a new species every million years.

    !

    I’m only giving this short shriftL that’s akin to claiming that since (globally) hundreds of thousands of people are born every day, it cannot be the case that it takes nine months to gestate a baby.

  56. Menyambal --- flinging the squaler says

    Michelle Rogers, the whole argument is moot. My creationist assures me that no species has ever gone extinct, as God would never allow that to happen. I can’t remember why, probably because there was no “why”, but it was what he said, and I am sure God inspired him.

  57. says

    Esteleth:

    Do not go gentle into that good night,
    Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

    I love that poem, however, it might not have been the best choice, given the previous discussion.

  58. Portia says

    One of my liberal, progressive, more feminist friends on facebook today told me: “As a lawyer, I’m sure you can see that the evidence against the defendants [in the Steubenville case] was insufficient.”

    She’s a lawyer too. I couldn’t even answer. I can’t even. uuuuuugh.

  59. says

    Yes. It is a horrid case of SIWOTI. It started out about atheism then turned to evolution and a horrid misunderstanding of Dawkins’ thought experiment about tracing the evolution of humans back millions of years.

    Of course, I graduated from a conservative catholic school, so only a few people are backing me up. I’m drinking a beer in the hopes it kills my SIWOTI syndrome.

  60. says

    Portia:

    One of my liberal, progressive, more feminist friends on facebook today told me: “As a lawyer, I’m sure you can see that the evidence against the defendants [in the Steubenville case] was insufficient.”

    ! and a raised eyebrow.

  62. janewhite says

    Heh. I’m pretty sure I know the woman in that photo. If she’s who I think, she’s a really talented jouster, and yes, her armor is VERY functional. (Insult her, find out for sure!) Her husband made it, he’s a skilled crafter, and he cares more about skeleton remaining intact than about her looks.

  63. Portia says

    Caine:

    I almost launched into a rebuttal, but I didn’t have the wherewithal. Which is a shame, because she’s one of the ones who listens when I talk about things like that. But the impetus for the conversation was an article comparing Miley Cyrus’ VMA performance to the Steubenville rape case. In the first two paragraphs, the author takes pains to indicate that there was no “actual rape” …I couldn’t continue. Not to mention, THE TWO ARE NOTHING ALIKE AND ARE NOT “BOTH DIMINISHING INTIMACY TO YOUNG PEOPLE” Maybe I couldn’t get into it because I didn’t know where to start…there was So Much Wrong. Fractal Wrongness.

  64. Portia says

    Good news: google is all its wisdom has revealed to me that Wonkette skewered the piece. :)

    Now to ponder why a woman who is so smart and so informed and we both took that class on women’s issues in law school, whyyyyyyyyyyyyy. Ugh.

  66. Menyambal --- flinging the squaler says

    I like the http://womenfighters.tumblr.com/ site, which was the source for the picture up top. I was reminded of an image some guy had cobbled up of a pendulous woman in a metal breastplate that followed the under-boob skin impossibly exactly. He asked for criticism—I asked how she’d put the damn thing on, how sharp that under-boob metal edge was, and what would happen if a glancing blow went up into that crease. He didn’t appreciate it.

    Steubenville? I spent some time there one day. Given what I saw, I’d be willing to believe the whole town would jump to cover up a case of rape as described. That’s in addition to my giving credence to claims of rape as a matter of principle.

  67. Esteleth, statistically significant to p ≤ 0.001 says

    Caine:
    Upon reading back up the thread, I see that.

    *chagrined*

  69. Portia says

    I wanted to read this and thoughtfully respond, but I couldn’t get past the part where he minimizes a horrible dehumanizing crime. (I’m a little upset just by the first few paragraphs, so pardon any typing errors, I’ve backspace a lot just getting this much down).

    Friend I am Sadly Disillusioned With:

    Fair enough. I am not as familiar with Steubenville as I could be. I think as a lawyer you can appreciate that without evidence (direct or circumstantial) of rape, no conviction of rape can occur–it doesn’t matter what we “know” in our hearts. I think he summarily deals with this issue (that is 11 pages of the New Yorker article), and does so admittedly without any emotion. He’s also disposing of the issue of media (social or otherwise) exploiting the victim (again, dealt with in the 11 page New Yorker article). But, the author acknowledges and reprimands what there is evidence of: the culture that created a situation where a girl can be (at least) stripped down naked and photographed and no one spoke up or said anything. I think that’s a fair criticism on those facts. I don’t think it’s unfair that he distinguishes intercourse rape from what there is evidence of having happened. And, at no point does he say what happened was even remotely close to ok.

    argleblargle.

  70. anteprepro says

    it doesn’t matter what we “know” in our hearts. I think he summarily deals with this issue (that is 11 pages of the New Yorker article), and does so admittedly without any emotion.

    My Straw Vulcan Sense is tingling.

  72. Akira MacKenzie says

    I tracked down annejones’ vision of utopia. Yikes! There, but for the grace of a college education from a major urban state university, go I. Once upon a time, I would have agreed with damn near everything in that insipid totalitarian rant, all the while believing I was doing so in the name of “freedom” and “limited government.”

    While I still have some issues to work out, I like to think that I’m better now.

  75. says

    Unless, of course, there was a rapid explosion of species different from their parents (as is thought)

    Cambrian comes to mind. Enough CO2 and oxygen in the atmosphere, and wowzer! No gods required.

  76. Portia says

    Erm, maybe you should casually post the CCC.

    “intercourse rape”? Really?

    I will actually think about doing that. I know I don’t have the gumption for a point by point take down. I may also just link to the Wonkette post, because I find it hilarious.

    I’m finally gonna fall asleep, I think.

    Thanks for the conversation, night all.

  77. Vicki says

    The main flaw in that “argument” is that the “if” isn’t valid: species don’t necessarily take millions of years to evolve, nor do they evolve one at a time. That a species is evolving across the street from me doesn’t mean another hundred aren’t evolving in Jamaica or a hundred thousand in the depths of the oceans.

    Also, his estimate for number of species is probably off by about two orders of magnitude, and he offers no basis for the assumption that the number of species is constant over time. The general trend over very long time periods is for increase, with periodic major drops in the form of mass extinctions: but the number of species that survived the end-of-Cretaceous extinction was probably significantly larger than the number that survived the end-of-Permian one, and that is almost certainly far more than existed at the end of the Ediacaran. So his numbers fall apart in two or three places.

  78. annejones says

    Since people didn’t respond to it properly last time, here it is again:

    I’ve long believed that there are numerous liberal policies that have contributed to the moral decline, and collapse of marriage and family, in the US and UK especially. Here are some changes that I’d like to see. Feel free to tear into it if you think you have better ideas.

    I think other people should make similar lists, they might spice the forums up a bit. It would be interesting to see what your world would look like, and might spark some debates.

    1. Abortion- Life begins at conception. Abortions may only be performed in approved medical facilities by licensed doctors, in the case of rape, incest, child molestation, or legitimate concerns for the life of the mother and her future reproductive ability. If such abortions involve a minor, her parents/legal guardian must be notified prior to procedure and consent given. No one, in any position, other than a parent may suggest, or make recommendations to a minor about abortion. Anyone performing an unapproved abortion, or willfully contributing to the death of an unborn child will be charged with murder.

    Abortions will be outside the scope of practice for all agencies such as Planned Parenthood, whether public or private. Women seeking counseling or services relating to abortion will be referred to the appropriate medical professionals.

    2. Divorce- Changes will take effect 6 months from today. No-Fault Divorce is gone. In order to obtain a divorce, the plaintiff must show abuse or neglect of spouse or children, or adultery. During the 6 month grace period, currently married couples may still file for divorce under the no-fault law. The new law will not effect any divorce currently in progress.

    3. Marriage and Parenting- Marriage is defined as one man and one woman. Current relationships not meeting that definition, yet recognized as a marriage, are immediately dissolved.

    All marriage licenses will go back to showing one husband and one wife, only. All birth certificates will list only the biological mother and biological father.

    A parent is defined as a biological mother or father, adoptive mother or father, step-mother or step-father, foster mother or foster father. A homosexual may be recognized as a parent only if they are the biological mother or father. Procreation by those living openly in a homosexual relationship is discouraged, and repeated offenses by homosexuals will subject them to criminal penalties. Any person, homosexual or otherwise, who knowingly assists a homosexual in becoming pregnant, or with the procurement of a child, with the intent of that child being raised as part of a homosexual “family”, will be guilty of a felony, if convicted.

    4. Adoption- Adoption exists as a means of providing a loving home and family for children whose biological parents are unable to care for them. Children will only be adopted by married heterosexual couples that have been licensed by the state’s child welfare system. These laws are also applicable to all private agencies, surrogates, and private citizens willfully terminating their parental rights in favor of adoption, as well as adoption from foreign countries. These laws will not affect any current placements, or adoption proceedings currently in progress involving married heterosexual couples.

    *Exception- If deemed beneficial to the child by mental health professionals, children who have suffered trauma from sexual abuse, rape, etc., may be adopted by single males or females. These single parents will be licensed as other adoptive parents are, in addition they will have specialized training provided by the state for dealing with the trauma of sexual abuse in children.

    5. Assisted Reproductive Technologies(ART)/ Surrogacy- The use of ART or surrogacy will be confined to married heterosexual couples, who have been married for at least one year. It is illegal to obtain or provide ART or surrogacy services by or to any non-married individuals or couples, or same-sex individuals or couples. Sperm banks are also forbidden from providing donor sperm to non-approved couples or individuals.

    Anyone acting as a surrogate will register with, and be licensed by their state’s department of health. They will undergo medical and psychological evaluations by state approved professionals, as well as criminal background checks. Surrogates will obtain insurance, and be held financially responsible for reimbursement of expenses in the case that she is not able to deliver a child to the prospective parents. The surrogate will bear the full expense of all insurance and licensing requirements, and the state may impose a licensing fee to help cover administrative costs.

    Any private citizen who fails to fulfill licensing requirements, or knowingly assists a non-approved couple or individual in obtaining a child, or pregnancy, shall be guilty of a felony upon conviction.

    6. Sex-Reassignment- Sex change operations and hormone replacement therapy are banned. If a person wishes to go to another country to obtain such services, they will surrender their US citizenship. This does not apply to people who are born with gender irregularity or ambiguous genitalia. Those situations will be dealt with by parents and medical professionals. Whatever procedures and therapies are necessary will remain available for those affected individuals.

    7. Alternate Lifestyles in the Public Arena- Alternate lifestyles such as homosexuality or transgenderism in one’s private life will not be made illegal, but expression of those lifestyles shall remain private. Further, propaganda portraying alternate lifestyles in a positive light will be banned. Fines and penalties for disseminating propaganda, written or verbal, or public displays to or around children below 18 will be doubled.

    8. Sex Education- Schools will offer sex education courses as an elective, requiring informed written consent to the curriculum, by the parents/guardians. These courses will be segregated by gender and will focus on personal responsibility for any and all sexual behavior. They will encourage children to wait until married before engaging in sexual activity, and will stress that sex between a man and a wife is the only acceptable form of sexual expression. Students will be taught the available methods of birth control and disease prevention, but school personnel will not assist students with obtaining such. These issues will be referred to the parent/guardian.

    9. Other School Issues:

    a) Corporal punishment will be re-instituted in public schools and will be enforced by the Principal, at his/her discretion, but will be used only after 2 other attempts to change the offensive behavior have failed, including parental notification.

    b) Schools will include a strong campaign against bullying. This campaign will be all-inclusive, not favoring or focusing on any group in particular. It will stress the importance of treating all people with respect, and bullying against any person for any reason, on school grounds, will be dealt with by appropriate disciplinary measures. This campaign will also strive to teach children the difference between protected rights to free speech, and bullying. It will encourage students to respect free speech rights even when they don’t like what is being said.

    School officials will not take action against a student, or be held responsible for any behavior not occurring on school grounds. This includes all electronic devices, unless the offense is committed on a school computer. If school officials become aware of such behavior that is occurring away from school, they are required to report the behavior to administrators who will contact the parents.

    Continued

  79. annejones says

    Part Two

    c) Schools will have at least one teacher or administrator per wing, trained, licensed, and in possession of a concealed weapon. In lieu of school personnel, licensed guards may be hired.

    d) Prayer is a reasonable form of religious expression and will be allowed in public schools. No one shall be required to take part in prayer, and shall not be discriminated against for not doing so. If religious beliefs require a child to pray at different times throughout the day, he will be allowed to go out in the hallway and do so. No other special accommodations shall be required of public or private schools, voluntary measures are at the school’s discretion.

    e) Religious studies will be made available at each grade level, as an option. Curricula will be designed to distinguish between empirically supported scientific facts, and theoretical science. That which is theoretical shall be presented as such, with other theories also presented, with no preference given to any particular theory. Micro-evolution may be taught as a legitimate scientific theory that is supported by evidence. If macro-evolution, Universal Common Ancestry, is taught, it must be taught as a belief akin to Creation Theory, until such a time as it is proven to be the origin of biological life on earth. The same applies to any theoretical claims for the origin of the universe.

    10. Hate Crimes- All hate crimes legislation shall be abolished. All violent crimes are hate crimes, and more severe penalties will be handed down for violent crimes.

    11. Protected Classes and Discrimination- Reasonable attempts will be made to guard against discrimination of people based on race, nationality, gender, age, or physical handicap.

    Discrimination should be discouraged, however property rights and ownership must be respected. A business owner, landlord, etc., shall not be required to employ or rent to, anyone that he doesn’t see as a good fit.

    No organization that owns property shall be required to rent that property, or allow its use by any group, or for any purpose, that it deems counter to its mission.

    12. Religion- Public displays such as the Ten Commandments and nativity scenes will be allowed on public property as no one is harmed by their presence. Anyone filing suit on religious grounds must show actual physical or mental damages caused by the alleged action. Plaintiff will be held responsible financially for all court costs and attorney fees if his complaint is not upheld.

    13. Recreational Drugs- All recreational drugs are illegal. No such drugs shall be sold, or possessed, by any entity for any purpose. Drugs used for medicinal purposes shall be approved by the FDA.

    14. Firearms- Citizens must be 18 years of age to own a firearm, and must pass a gun safety course, which will certify the owner as a safe operator, and a qualified shooter. Hunting rifles and shotguns are excepted, with parents/guardians held responsible for youth ownership and use. Criminal background checks and psychological clearance shall be required to purchase any firearm. Concealed carry permits also require a background check and yearly psychological clearance, and require registration of carrier as well as his/her weapon/s, with local law enforcement. Anyone convicted of a violent crime or felony will not be allowed to purchase or possess any firearm. No further restrictions on ownership will be allowed.

    Any building, public or private, may require registration of concealed weapons upon entry, but may not ban, or otherwise interfere with, a legal carrier of a registered weapon without cause.

  82. Akira MacKenzie says

    annejones @ 78-79

    Your fascist bullshit doesn’t sound any better after reading a second time.

  83. chigau (違う) says

    annejones
    People didn’t respond to you because they were busy responding to something important i.e. NOT you.

  84. bad Jim says

    Firearms don’t include rifles and shotguns?

    Isn’t alcohol a recreational drug? Tobacco? Caffeine?

    Reasonable attempts will be made to guard against discrimination, however, they cannot be enforced.

    The distinction between theoretical science and empirically supported scientific facts is doing a number on my brain. I’ve never seen an electron, much less a neutrino, yet my cell phone works (apart from the front display, possibly a good reason not to carry your phone in your hip pocket). Flash memory: how does it work?

    Students actually being taught about birth control would be an improvement over sexual education in many states.

  85. ekwhite says

    @Annejones

    I grew up in world like you described. It also had Whites Only signs and ‘The Knights of the Ku Klux Klan welcome you to Fayetteville, NC.’ I can tell you for certain that I don’t want to go back there.

    PS: Most people think ‘A Handmaid’s Tale’ is a dystopian novel, not a good idea.

  86. hotshoe, now with more boltcutters says

    annejones –

    Since people didn’t respond to it properly last time, here it is again:

    Since people didn’t respond the way you demand? Wait, are you the queen? Who are you?

  87. bad Jim says

    Sending all the religious students out into the hall whenever they felt the need to pray would be a reasonable accommodation. “One nation” (runs outside) “under God” (comes back in) “indivisible”. That could be fun.

    (Lately I’ve begun to wonder whether “God, indivisible” was subliminal Unitarian brainwashing.)

  89. says

    Jacob Schmidt
    Serious hugs and fluffy bunnies
    That sound like a dark and all too familiar place.
    And yeah, fuck selflessness. Nobody in that place ever got better by being selfless. Because you need to believe that you’re worth it and you need to be selfish about that. Being selfless kept me brushing my teeth and taking a shower (can’t burden other people with my bad breath and smell). But I wasn’t taking care of a person anymore, I just made sure I didn’t bother actual people.

    +++
    And since we’re swapping poetry:
    A more cheerful one (it’s an excerpt of a longer poem “El Hombre Invisible”)

    No puedo
    sin la vida vivir
    sin el hombre ser hombre
    y corro y veo y oigo
    y canto
    las estrellas no tienen
    nada que ver conmigo,
    la soledad no tiene
    flor ni fruta
    Dadme para mi vida
    todas las vidas,
    dadme el dolor
    de todo el mundo
    y voy a transformarlo
    en esperanza.

    I can’t live
    without life
    can’t be human
    without people
    and I run and I see and I hear
    and I sing
    The stars are none
    of my business
    Solitude doesn’t bear
    flower nor fruit.
    Give me for my life
    all the lives
    give me the whole world’s pain
    and I’m going to turn it into hope.

  90. says

    1. Abortion- Life begins at conception. Abortions may only be performed in approved medical facilities by licensed doctors, in the case of rape, incest, child molestation, or legitimate concerns for the life of the mother and her future reproductive ability. If such abortions involve a minor, her parents/legal guardian must be notified prior to procedure and consent given. No one, in any position, other than a parent may suggest, or make recommendations to a minor about abortion. Anyone performing an unapproved abortion, or willfully contributing to the death of an unborn child will be charged with murder.

    Because uteri are state property.

    2. Divorce- Changes will take effect 6 months from today. No-Fault Divorce is gone. In order to obtain a divorce, the plaintiff must show abuse or neglect of spouse or children, or adultery. During the 6 month grace period, currently married couples may still file for divorce under the no-fault law. The new law will not effect any divorce currently in progress.

    Because people suffering in marriages they hated and taking out their rage passive aggressively (It’s what prior generations did – spare me any fairy songs about how everyone only ever married those they loved, people have made mistakes in this kind of bonding for millenia) is totally better than a no-fault divorce.

    3. Marriage and Parenting- Marriage is defined as one man and one woman. Current relationships not meeting that definition, yet recognized as a marriage, are immediately dissolved.

    All marriage licenses will go back to showing one husband and one wife, only. All birth certificates will list only the biological mother and biological father.

    asinine, hateful, and more evidence that for all their squalling on keeping the state out of things, conservatives want it far more ingratiated into people’s personal life than socialists such as myself* do.

    4. Adoption- Adoption exists as a means of providing a loving home and family for children whose biological parents are unable to care for them. Children will only be adopted by married heterosexual couples that have been licensed by the state’s child welfare system. These laws are also applicable to all private agencies, surrogates, and private citizens willfully terminating their parental rights in favor of adoption, as well as adoption from foreign countries. These laws will not affect any current placements, or adoption proceedings currently in progress involving married heterosexual couples.,

    Because only heteros can love a child . Because the state has no business in your life unless you’re gay.

    5. Assisted Reproductive Technologies(ART)/ Surrogacy- The use of ART or surrogacy will be confined to married heterosexual couples, who have been married for at least one year. It is illegal to obtain or provide ART or surrogacy services by or to any non-married individuals or couples, or same-sex individuals or couples. Sperm banks are also forbidden from providing donor sperm to non-approved couples or individuals.

    …but socialists are the ones who hate freedom? XD XD XD
    Yeah, standard heterosexist asshattery.

    Anyone acting as a surrogate will register with, and be licensed by their state’s department of health. They will undergo medical and psychological evaluations by state approved professionals, as well as criminal background checks. Surrogates will obtain insurance, and be held financially responsible for reimbursement of expenses in the case that she is not able to deliver a child to the prospective parents. The surrogate will bear the full expense of all insurance and licensing requirements, and the state may impose a licensing fee to help cover administrative costs.

    No, seriously, ‘small government’ from you assholes is a laugh, but this isn’t hateful.

    6. Sex-Reassignment- Sex change operations and hormone replacement therapy are banned. If a person wishes to go to another country to obtain such services, they will surrender their US citizenship. This does not apply to people who are born with gender irregularity or ambiguous genitalia. Those situations will be dealt with by parents and medical professionals. Whatever procedures and therapies are necessary will remain available for those affected individuals.

    What a surprise,t he heterosexist is cissexist too!

    7. Alternate Lifestyles in the Public Arena- Alternate lifestyles such as homosexuality or transgenderism in one’s private life will not be made illegal, but expression of those lifestyles shall remain private. Further, propaganda portraying alternate lifestyles in a positive light will be banned. Fines and penalties for disseminating propaganda, written or verbal, or public displays to or around children below 18 will be doubled.

    AHAHAHAHAHA

    And they say we hate freedom of speech! Ahahahahaha

    8. Sex Education- Schools will offer sex education courses as an elective, requiring informed written consent to the curriculum, by the parents/guardians. These courses will be segregated by gender and will focus on personal responsibility for any and all sexual behavior. They will encourage children to wait until married before engaging in sexual activity, and will stress that sex between a man and a wife is the only acceptable form of sexual expression. Students will be taught the available methods of birth control and disease prevention, but school personnel will not assist students with obtaining such. These issues will be referred to the parent/guardian.

    Leave it to Beaver: How things actually worked in those golden years. But ignore everything about the marginal tax rate on the rich being 95%, that’s just liberal propaganda.

    9. Other School Issues:

    a) Corporal punishment will be re-instituted in public schools and will be enforced by the Principal, at his/her discretion, but will be used only after 2 other attempts to change the offensive behavior have failed, including parental notification.

    Because when has violence ever failed to solve an issue?

    b) Schools will include a strong campaign against bullying. This campaign will be all-inclusive, not favoring or focusing on any group in particular. It will stress the importance of treating all people with respect, and bullying against any person for any reason, on school grounds, will be dealt with by appropriate disciplinary measures. This campaign will also strive to teach children the difference between protected rights to free speech, and bullying. It will encourage students to respect free speech rights even when they don’t like what is being said.

    …respect, unless they’re gay or trans. In which case you want their ability to express themselves in the public sphere entirely fettered. I like how you’re pretending to care about Free Speech now, btw.

    c) Schools will have at least one teacher or administrator per wing, trained, licensed, and in possession of a concealed weapon. In lieu of school personnel, licensed guards may be hired.

    White people’s over-concern with shootings is kinda adorable, I won’t lie.

    d) Prayer is a reasonable form of religious expression and will be allowed in public schools. No one shall be required to take part in prayer, and shall not be discriminated against for not doing so. If religious beliefs require a child to pray at different times throughout the day, he will be allowed to go out in the hallway and do so. No other special accommodations shall be required of public or private schools, voluntary measures are at the school’s discretion.

    That’s pretty much the status quo, you jackasses just try to pretend prayer is banned.

    e) Religious studies will be made available at each grade level, as an option. Curricula will be designed to distinguish between empirically supported scientific facts, and theoretical science. That which is theoretical shall be presented as such, with other theories also presented, with no preference given to any particular theory. Micro-evolution may be taught as a legitimate scientific theory that is supported by evidence. If macro-evolution, Universal Common Ancestry, is taught, it must be taught as a belief akin to Creation Theory, until such a time as it is proven to be the origin of biological life on earth. The same applies to any theoretical claims for the origin of the universe.

    What an ignorant fuck. Seriously, you’ve missed out on 200 years of biology and think you’re the wiser for it.

    10. Hate Crimes- All hate crimes legislation shall be abolished. All violent crimes are hate crimes, and more severe penalties will be handed down for violent crimes.

    ….do you even know how hate crime legislation works? Oh wait, taht’s rather a stupid question, it’s not like you know anything else you’ve yammered on about.

    Discrimination should be discouraged, however property rights and ownership must be respected. A business owner, landlord, etc., shall not be required to employ or rent to, anyone that he doesn’t see as a good fit.

    In other words, property rights uber alles. Ofc. Libertarians should move to fucking Somalia.

    12. Religion- Public displays such as the Ten Commandments and nativity scenes will be allowed on public property as no one is harmed by their presence. Anyone filing suit on religious grounds must show actual physical or mental damages caused by the alleged action. Plaintiff will be held responsible financially for all court costs and attorney fees if his complaint is not upheld.

    In other words, the state can tell you what religions are accepted around here.

    13. Recreational Drugs- All recreational drugs are illegal. No such drugs shall be sold, or possessed, by any entity for any purpose. Drugs used for medicinal purposes shall be approved by the FDA.

    No booze? Did you learn nothing from 1918 to 1929? We have two amendments about this nonsense for a reason.

    Any building, public or private, may require registration of concealed weapons upon entry, but may not ban, or otherwise interfere with, a legal carrier of a registered weapon without cause.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    So Guns > Property Rights > minority rights. Fuck off you insufferable, inconsistent toad.

  92. says

    Oh, those asterisks are because I, in fact, AM a socialist. Which is why it brings a smile to my face to see asshats like AJ pretend Obama is a socialist. Oh I wish, dear, oh how I wish. He’s closer to you than me, and I actually have stood on both sides of that spectrum and would know.

  93. bad Jim says

    Corporal punishment. Not private, sergeant, major or general.

    What is corporal punishment doing here?

    It makes as little sense as denying poor people free health care, which also turns out to be pretty popular. The theory seems to be that punishing people makes them succeed.

    Is that what worked for them? The rest of us may have had different upbringings.

  94. says

    bad Jim

    Lately I’ve begun to wonder whether “God, indivisible” was subliminal Unitarian brainwashing.)

    No, ‘under god’ wasn’t added until considerably later.

    Is that what worked for them?

    Not really, they just hate empiricism, because the results conflict with their preconceptions.

  95. Walton says

    *headdesk* to all of annejones’ terrible ideas. I’m just going to pick on one of many.

    a) Corporal punishment will be re-instituted in public schools and will be enforced by the Principal, at his/her discretion, but will be used only after 2 other attempts to change the offensive behavior have failed, including parental notification.

    Apparently you aren’t aware, or don’t care, that empirical evidence shows that corporal punishment is psychologically harmful to children.

    It’s also wrong in principle. Deliberately inflicting pain on children in humiliating and degrading ways teaches them that their bodies are not their own and that people with power have the right to hurt them, and teaches them that violence is the right way to solve problems and enforce social control. These are not good lessons.

  96. Walton says

    13. Recreational Drugs- All recreational drugs are illegal. No such drugs shall be sold, or possessed, by any entity for any purpose. Drugs used for medicinal purposes shall be approved by the FDA.

    So apparently you haven’t learned a thing from the disastrous failures of Prohibition and the War on Drugs.

  97. vaiyt says

    Further, propaganda portraying alternate lifestyles in a positive light will be banned.

    Alternate to whom, pale-face?

  98. Walton says

    More *headdesks*.

    Micro-evolution may be taught as a legitimate scientific theory that is supported by evidence. If macro-evolution, Universal Common Ancestry, is taught, it must be taught as a belief akin to Creation Theory, until such a time as it is proven to be the origin of biological life on earth. The same applies to any theoretical claims for the origin of the universe.

    So you deny the entirety of modern molecular genetics and paleontology? Please, go ahead and put forward your arguments against common descent.

  99. says

    *headdesk* to all of annejones’ terrible ideas. I’m just going to pick on one of many.

    Sorry mate, but no. SIWOTI only goes this far. I didn’t read anything after “you didnt respond to me properly last time, so here’s me fishing for attention again”.

  103. bad Jim says

    Dalillama, of course the original was “one nation indivisible”, most likely a reference to the Civil War. I would have thought any suggestion of nefarious intentions by Unitarians would be universally recognized as a joke. Peas be upon you.

  104. says

    rorschach@102 HEY! I’m not that kind of … oh, shit, maybe I am. Read annejones’ diatribe after all. Though, like you, I literally LOL’ed at the didn’t respond to it properly last time.

  105. says

    Hi all!

    I notice that along with the disappearance of Chris Clarke’s bio from the blog sidebar, the Profile box now has had the link removed to his excellent ‘The Desert Tortoises With Boltcutters Civility Pledge’, which over the last six months has been providing a semi-frequent stream of visitors to my own blog (comment 21 seems to have had the knack of achieving that). Anyway, as I have the sads about that page being relegated to comparative obscurity of the archives, I feel it’s about time I retire the ‘chronic tuck’ in my nym and take up Chris’ suggestion of a possible Horde sobriquet from comment 404: Amy of my threads. (For some time I’ve been styling my hair after Amy Pond, past companion of the Eleventh Doctor, or rather the actress Karen Gillan. That Amy.)

    Just wanted to add my hearty thanks for everyone making helpful responses to the disgusting bigotry of annejones – “sometimes the kindest possible contribution to a discussion with someone acting in bad faith and harmfully is to tell them to go fuck themselves sideways.”

  106. says

    I’ve always liked Pablo Neruda, myself, if we’re quoting poetry:

    I can write the saddest lines tonight.
    Write, for instance: “The night is starry
    and shiver, blue stars, far away “.

    The night wind revolves in the sky and sings.

    I can write the saddest lines tonight.
    I loved her, and sometimes she loved me too.

    On nights like this I held my arms.
    kissed her greatly under the infinite sky.

    She loved me, sometimes I loved her too.
    How to not have loved her great still eyes.

    I can write the saddest lines tonight.
    think that I have not. Feel that I have lost.

    To hear the immense night, more immense without her.
    And the verse falls to the soul like dew to the pasture.

  107. annejones says

    Oh I didn’t see Anteprepro’s post above. I’ll get onto responding to that, as well as other stuff from recent and before.

  108. carlie says

    but if species take millions of years to evolve,

    Ask your creationist to look up Verne Grant. He was a botanist who created new species in the space of a few years. Loren Riesberg did the same thing a few decades later, and that’s just a couple of examples. If your creationist says that doesn’t count because they were directed, have them look up Flavobacterium, nylon-eating species. Have them look up speciation by polyploidy. Theoretically, it only takes a single generation to get a new species. In practice, it often happens almost that quickly.

    Annejones- again, what would you do with intersex people in your society?

  109. carlie says

    Also, ask your creationist to define what they think a “species” even is. Dollars to doughnuts they’ll give the biological species definition, in which case you can ask “but what about bacteria? they don’t breed”, and watch their heads asplode. Then you can start talking about different species concepts, and tell your creationist you can start off slowly with the first 26 of them. Then ask them about the accuracy of their “how many species evolve in what kind of time” statement again.

  110. birgerjohansson says

    Coyotes and ordinary wolves are distinct species even though they can interbred. Same for H. Sapiens Sapiens and Neanderthals.

    Miscellaneous:

    Science Fiction writer Frederik Pohl dead at 93 http://phys.org/news/2013-09-science-fiction-writer-frederik-pohl.html
    — — — — — — — —
    First world war model battlefield to be dug up http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/sep/01/first-world-war-model-battlefield
    — — — — — — — —
    World first as woman gets pregnant seven years after ovaries removed http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/sep/03/woman-pregnant-after-ovaries-removed-breakthrough

  111. carlie says

    I mean jeez, where did that person even get “millions of years” for a species? All you have to do is look at human evolution to see that scientists list it as having all kinds of species popping in and out over just the last 200,000 years.

  112. says

    I definitely LOL’d at “didn’t respond properly last time”. What a pompous fuckwit you are, ImaginaryFuehrer Jones. I would be a gun-toting revolutionary in your Religious Reich, Ms. Jones, and my socialist and communist friends and I would bring. you. down. If, y’know, your particular delightfully oppressive “small-government” approach ever had a hope of being implemented in a society not 100% addicted to hallucinogens. Consider seeing a therapist about that latent Nazi-worship.

    Nice job, RuteeK. What I’ve learned to call a fair number of lolsobs in there: laughs that are rueful because of truth.

  114. Antiochus Epiphanes says

    People who defend evolution should pay attention to the plants. Like carlie sez.

  116. DLC says

    AnneJones ? I thought you were writing about Ann Coulter, who would of course agree with AnneJones in toto.
    Me, I think AnneJones lives in the same world as June Cleaver, where everything’s nice and clean and she wears Ward’s Pearls around her neck demurely.
    As for poetry:
    Some A E Housman fits my mood.
    ‘Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries’

    These, in the day when heaven was falling,
    The hour when earth’s foundations fled,
    Followed their mercenary calling
    And took their wages and are dead.

    Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
    They stood, and earth’s foundations stay;
    What God abandoned, these defended,
    And saved the sum of things for pay.

  119. ledasmom says

    Menyambal @ 54, I find Hardy often too sentimental, but delicious when he’s being satirical. His “Satires of Circumstance” are great fun.

  120. Rob Grigjanis says

    Said Hamlet to Ophelia,
    I’ll draw a sketch of thee,
    What kind of pencil shall I use?
    2B or not 2B?

    Spike Milligan

  121. Pteryxx says

    New sentencing hearing in the recent “she was in control” case…

    http://www.salon.com/2013/09/04/teacher_convicted_of_raping_his_14_year_old_student_faces_new_sentencing_hearing/

    After public outcry over the lenient sentence and outrage over Baugh’s statement that the 14-year-old victim was “as much in control of the situation” as Rambold, county attorneys reviewed state law and said that the mandatory minimum in such a case is actually two years, not 30 days.

    “The state will review the issue and we will be prepared to be in court on Friday,” Yellowstone County Attorney Scott Twito told the Billings Gazette in response to Baugh’s order.

    Two WHOLE years. Also, lolsob at judge incompetence. Apparently he’s good at disregarding the whole concept of a mandatory minimum number of years for anything. /snark

  122. A Surprise to Many (formerly Mattir) says

    5. Assisted Reproductive Technologies(ART)/ Surrogacy- The use of ART or surrogacy will be confined to married heterosexual couples, who have been married for at least one year.

    Hey annejones, you do know that ART generally involves quite a lot of masturbation, right? That hospitals have small private rooms with a varied assortment of pornography to facilitate the masturbation? And yet, strangely, you say not one word about (a) married men wanking, with the facilities for such wanking paid for by health insurance, or (b) unmarried (potentially gay) men wanking to provide sperm for those nice married couples who are allowed access to AI procedures. Children are being produced while their bio fathers think about women other than their wives, or worse yet, thinking about dudes or lemurs or the family washing machine or. . . You definitely need to address this problem and consider holding off on ART in any form until you can make sure people are only thinking about Approved Topics when they do any sexytime stuff.

    Which version of the 10 commandments will be posted? I demand that they be only the original Hebrew, because reading the bible in translation is like “kissing through a canvas curtain” (as I’ve heard Orthodox teachers say). So you better get on with the teaching ancient languages in elementary school or no one’s going to know what the weird wall chart in the front hall of the school actually says.

  123. Tony! The Immorally Inferior Queer Shoop! says

    Annejones:
    Juuuuuust in case it has slipped your super duper dense mind:
    what did you mean about not being super duper mean to homosexuals?

    Oh and btw, “spark a debate” is laughable. As mentioned by others, your opinions are not backed by evidence and have been refuted over and over again.
    Your holy book provides the only support for your beliefs. Your refusal to read for comprehension or educate yourself using the many links provided you lo these many months constitutes a willingness on your part to maintain a lifestyle of stupidity, arrogance and bigotry. You offer nothing of substance.
    Begone evil one.
    ****
    As a comic book fan, I note that even Dr Doom’s world conquering plans are not as despicable as annejones’. She literally wants to take over the world and force everyone to live as she desires.

    Still wondering what made her hate gay people so much

  124. Thumper; Immorally Inferior Sergeant Major in the Grand Gynarchy Mangina Corps (GGMC) says

    @annejones #78

    I think other people should make similar lists, they might spice the forums up a bit.

    All right, fine.

    1. Abortion- Life begins at death. Therefore, it is perfectly legal to kill anyone at any time, and Planned Parenthood will form death squads to randomly roam around killing people in an effort to lower the Population.

    2. Divorce- Divorces are compulsory. Anyone getting married without first getting divorced will be sentenced to compulsory divorce.

    3. Marriage and Parenting- Marriage for everyone! Everyone who becomes a citizen is automatically married to all other citizens. This will save time and money spent on beaureaucracy.

    All marriage licenses shall be revoked and replaced with one massive one, printed on A -100 paper, marrying all US citizens to each other, to be displayed on flag poles instead of the Stars and Stripes, which it will becomes illegal to display.

    There is no such thing as a parent. All children are the property of whoever happens to be holding them at the time.

    4. Adoption- Adoption is hereby redefined as “picking up a baby, from wherever it may be laying” and makes the child your legal property.

    *Exception- The Five Second Rule stipulates that if, as the current owner of the baby, you drop it then you have five seconds to pick it up before anyone else may claim possession of said baby.

    5. Assisted Reproductive Technologies(ART)/ Surrogacy- Women wishing to undergo ART will be presented with 20 unlabelled syringes, each filled with sperm from a different species. They will pick one syringe and hope that it’s human sperm in there, unless they want a furry baby because it’s more cuddly, in which case I suppose any mammalian sperm will do.

    6. Sex-Reassignment- Compulsory sex reassignment for everyone! Everyone should experience life from an alternative viewpoint, to which end they will spend their teenage years as the opposite sex to that which they are born as, before being switched back when they hit 20.

    7. Alternate Lifestyles in the Public Arena- No one is allowed to be alternative to anyone else. Everyone must form a grey, wholesome whole of good little conformingly obedient monkeys. Beige is too exciting; it shall not be tolerated.

    8. Sex Education- Sex education is compulsory but inadequate. They will be taught just enough about condoms to know the proper way to employ them as water balloons; anything beyond that will be punished by having helium-filled condoms attached to you until you float.

    9. Other School Issues:

    a) Corporal punishment will be re-instituted in public schools, and will be administered by tying the child down and tickling their feet with a feather.

    b) Bullying will be compulsory, since it builds character. Anyone caught not bullying will be bullied.

    c) It will be illegal for any teacher to own a gun, but compulsory for students to own one. This will cut down on violence.

    d) Prayer is a reasonable form of religious expression and prayers to Allah will occurr daily in every public school throughout the land.

    e) Everything I believe should be taught as fact, regardless of how much supporting evidence it has; everything else should be disparaged as a “belief”, regardless of how much supporting evidence it has. Fuck the dictionary.

    10. Hate Crimes- It shall be illegal not to hate everyone different from you.

    11. Protected Classes and Discrimination- Class As are protected. Class Bs are discriminated against. Class Cs are barely worth taking.

    12. Religion- The Eight “I’d Really Rather You Didn’ts” shall be chiselled into every available piece of stone, along with a diagram of the FSM.

    13. Recreational Drugs- All recreational drugs are compulsory. Anyone caught being not-stoned shall immediately be stoned.

    14. Firearms- Firearm ownership is compulsory. How the hell else will you overthrow this ridiculous government?

    15. Do I really need to add a snark tag?

  125. says

    Thumper re: your 6). Have you read James Alan Gardner’s Commitment Hour? You just basically elevator-pitched the book. It’s quite good, as most of his stuff is. And he’s a very nice fellow whom I have gamed with in the past.

  127. Amphiox says

    I think other people should make similar lists, they might spice the forums up a bit.

    1. No one is allowed to make lists about what they want to compel other people to do.

  128. Thumper; Immorally Inferior Sergeant Major in the Grand Gynarchy Mangina Corps (GGMC) says

    @CaitieCat

    I have not, but now I think I will; mostly because I am intrigued to find out who’s in the planes :)

  130. Amphiox says

    Thumper @123;

    6. Sex-Reassignment- Compulsory sex reassignment for everyone! Everyone should experience life from an alternative viewpoint, to which end they will spend their teenage years as the opposite sex to that which they are born as, before being switched back when they hit 20.

    Not identical, but reminds me a bit of The Left Hand of Darkness by U. K. Le Guin.

  131. Thumper; Immorally Inferior Sergeant Major in the Grand Gynarchy Mangina Corps (GGMC) says

    @Amphiox

    What if the list is actually a huge list of hastily thought up bullshit written as a poor attempt at snark while bored at work?

  132. Amphiox says

    Micro-evolution may be taught as a legitimate scientific theory that is supported by evidence.

    It already is.

    If macro-evolution, Universal Common Ancestry, is taught, it must be taught as a belief akin to Creation Theory, until such a time as it is proven to be the origin of biological life on earth.

    Macro-evolution nor Universal Common Ancestry are scientific theories, not beliefs like Creation “theory”, about the diversity of biological life on earth.

    Neither have anything to do with the origin of biological life on earth (which is Abiogenesis theory).

    Schools should not be teaching category errors to students, on first principles.

  134. Thumper; Immorally Inferior Sergeant Major in the Grand Gynarchy Mangina Corps (GGMC) says

    @Amphiox #129

    Now that sounds interesting. Every time the subject of books comes up on Pharyngula, my reading list grows :( I still haven’t got round to Jim C. Hines! And his Goblin Trilogy looks awesome!

  135. Pteryxx says

    in more rage-making general news, California and the private prison industry:

    http://www.salon.com/2013/09/04/worst_bailout_ever_corporate_welfare_meets_community_destruction/

    Now, with the president’s Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program protecting nearly half a million DREAM kids, and flickers of hope for comprehensive immigration reform, that cash cow may be fading. Even without reform, calls to stay deportations are growing. Worse for the private prison industry, a persistently falling crime rate has led to a slightly smaller prison population in 2012 for the third consecutive year. The United States still incarcerates more people than any country on Earth, but a for-profit prison industry seeking constant growth should be alarmed by the numbers — especially if the Justice Department really declares a cease-fire in the war on drugs.

    But what do we do with struggling yet politically powerful industries in America? We bail them out, of course!

    And California is set to do just that for the private prison industry. Under a Supreme Court order to reduce the prison population, Gov. Jerry Brown has outlined a plan where he would transfer thousands of prisoners to the for-profit system and pay them hundreds of millions in taxpayer dollars for the privilege.

    Also of note, that overly restrictive parole policies are responsible for much of the incarcerated population – this is linked from the Salon article:

    California has more men and women locked up in prison than any other state, a new federal report finds, and unlike any other state, the vast majority of those placed behind bars are parole violators.
    The report bolsters contentions by critics of the much-overcrowded prison system that state parole officers, who belong to the same union as prison guards, are extraordinarily willing to slap a parole inmate back behind bars, thereby exacerbating a prison overcrowding problem […]

    On average, the nation’s state and federal prisons took in almost two new offenders for every parole violator, but in California, the reverse is true. In 2007, California prisons took in 139,608 inmates and 92,628 of them were parole violators, almost a 2-1 ratio. In only one other state, Washington, did parole violators outnumber those being jailed by the courts, and that was only by 126 inmates.

    Blog link citing this DOJ PDF.

  136. says

    Alright, my contribution to how I’d run the world:

    1. Can’t we all just get along?

    WORLD: NO!

    (cut to Hollywood soundstage, with entire Horde forming rows and rows of kicklines)

    (PZ starts to sing, a rapid-patter Hollywood musical song in the old style)

    Theeeerrreeeee iiiiiizzzzzzzz…

    – no accomodatin’
    when the Jesus-types are hatin’
    and the fascist lists are flyin’
    why are Christians always lyin’
    ’bout the things we want to do when we are booosssss?

    Sure we would teach ’em evolution
    And enough with the pollution
    And perhaps instead of prayin’
    We’d have other stuff worth sayin’ ’bout the looossss?

    Of all those disappearing species
    And Fox Network flinging feces
    Like the chimps that they are close to
    Which is just what makes it really gross to waaaaatch!

    But in the end their aging numbers
    Will roll down like clowning tumblers
    Before the swarms of gamma rabbits
    And of those with disliked habits

    (horn flourish, BIG FINISH!)

    (Like) empathizing
    Logicizing
    Conscious-rising
    Freedom-prizing
    Loving
    Living
    Having
    Giving
    Some sort of dam ’bout the whooooolllle huuuumaaaannnn RAAAAAAAACCCCCEEEEE!
    (and JAZZ HANDS!!! SMILES PEOPLE!!!)

  138. Thumper; Immorally Inferior Sergeant Major in the Grand Gynarchy Mangina Corps (GGMC) says

    @Pteryxx

    Whose bloody stupid idea was it to privatise the prions industry anyway? Grr.

    @CaitieCat

    *applause*

    That was awesome :) Caitie for President!

  139. smhll says

    Further, propaganda portraying alternate lifestyles in a positive light will be banned.

    I’m still working to create a truly catchy bumper sticker slogan that conveys the point that the politicians and voters that want to ban anal sex also want to ban oral sex. The government interfering in sexual pleasure is not a winning idea if enough voters think it applies to them.

    I’m taking suggestions, because all of my ideas are bad.

    (Yes, I know that lots more heterosexual couples are trying anal sex, but I think the percentage numbers are still lower than for oral. I figure more than 90% of the sexually active voting population is using their mouths at times and enjoying it.)

  141. David Marjanović says

    I think he summarily deals with this issue (that is 11 pages of the New Yorker article), and does so admittedly without any emotion.

    My Straw Vulcan Sense is tingling.

    Yeah. If you’re not outraged, you haven’t been paying fucking attention.

    Cambrian comes to mind. Enough CO2 and oxygen in the atmosphere, and wowzer! No gods required.

    It still took pretty much the entire Cambrian, more than 80 million years.

    Since people didn’t respond to it properly last time, here it is again:

    annejones, it’s pretty hard to respond to so much evil.

    There are several reasons. One is that it’s not easy to figure out where to even begin. Another is that so many things you say are so obviously evil that it’s really hard to imagine you haven’t noticed! Few people like to state the painfully obvious:

    Every single point in your ill-thought-out manifesto, except maybe 9b), would increase suffering, even death in some cases. In case you really haven’t noticed, that makes them evil.

    9b) sounds great, but the trouble with it is that teachers have no idea what’s going on in a classroom while they aren’t looking. Most bullying is never brought to the attention of any authority figure; and when it is, they almost inevitably know so little about it that they often take useless or even counterproductive measures – indeed, they routinely misunderstand the situation and blame the victim. Plus, from the kids’ perspective, the teachers are the enemy; telling on a bully is therefore considered treason. Guess what happens next. To simply claim that “bullying […] will be dealt with” (my emphasis) is breathtakingly naive. It’s not how the world works.

    So what has turned you evil?

    I think it’s ignorance. You lack important knowledge – and you don’t even try to learn.

    So let me spell a few things out: sexual orientation is not contagious (as if it weren’t obvious enough on its own, an actual scientific study came out recently); children growing up with two mother figures in this still patriarchal culture fare slightly better than those with only one (one study that came out maybe a year or two ago); life has only begun once as far as anyone can tell, and that was about 4 billion years ago; trouble happens when you don’t know what you’re doing, therefore withholding education is evil, and yes, I’m talking about sex here among many other things; prayer in school by kids, as opposed to government agents, is not forbidden in the USA and has never been; the theory of evolution by mutation, selection and drift is exactly that, a scientific theory, not a myth – learn where the difference is, because you don’t seem to know there even is one.

    On violence, see comment 95 – I couldn’t say it better. Well, actually, I can: You want to beat children up? How much more blatantly, screamingly evil can you possibly get?!?!? For fuck’s sake!

    Isn’t alcohol a recreational drug? Tobacco? Caffeine?

    Alcohol definitely. What happens to the Blood of Christ?

    Tobacco definitely.

    Caffeine is sort of the opposite of recreational…

    (Lately I’ve begun to wonder whether “God, indivisible” was subliminal Unitarian brainwashing.)

    Subthread won.

    Peas be upon you.

    Whoa. I know we’re in the [Thunderdome], but take that back! :-)

    Coyotes and ordinary wolves are distinct species even though they can interbred. Same for H. Sapiens Sapiens and Neanderthals.

    By calling us Homo sapiens sapiens, though, you explicitly call us a subspecies – and under every classification from the last several decades I’ve seen, that implies the Neandertalers are another subspecies (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) of the same species.

    And no, I think in this particular circumstance, Godwin can just keep his noisehole shut.

    Godwin never said anyone loses the argument, if that’s what you mean. He only said that as a discussion goes on, the probability that a comparison to Nazis will come up approaches 1.

  142. Jacob Schmidt says

    I’ve long believed that there are numerous liberal policies that have contributed to the moral decline, and collapse of marriage and family, in the US and UK especially.

    Heh. The US is one of the more conservative western countries.

    1. Abortion- Life begins at conception.[1] Abortions may only be performed in approved medical facilities by licensed doctors, in the case of rape, incest, child molestation, or legitimate concerns for the life of the mother and her future reproductive ability.[2] If such abortions involve a minor, her parents/legal guardian must be notified prior to procedure and consent given.[3] No one, in any position, other than a parent may suggest, or make recommendations to a minor about abortion.[4] Anyone performing an unapproved abortion, or willfully contributing to the death of an unborn child will be charged with murder.[5]

    Abortions will be outside the scope of practice for all agencies such as Planned Parenthood, whether public or private. Women seeking counseling or services relating to abortion will be referred to the appropriate medical professionals.[6]

    1) Life began billions of years ago.

    2) This is actually better than most suggestions in this area.

    3) Why are parents being given control over whether or not to risk their child’s life? Isn’t that a violation of the child’s rights?

    4) You want untrained people making medical recommendations as opposed to trained ones? WTF?

    5) This is actually in direct contradiction to the bible, where the punishment for murder is separate for the punishment to killing a fetus.

    6) Planned parenthood actually has many train professional on hand for this sort of thing; the only reason you’re cutting them out, I assume, is your weird assumption that PP is some sort of abortion mill.

    2. Divorce- Changes will take effect 6 months from today. No-Fault Divorce is gone. In order to obtain a divorce, the plaintiff must show abuse or neglect of spouse or children, or adultery. During the 6 month grace period, currently married couples may still file for divorce under the no-fault law. The new law will not effect any divorce currently in progress.

    Why? What the fuck is the point of this, other than punishing people who made a mistake?

    The beauty of “no fault” divorce is that you don’t need to prove abuse or neglect, since such things are notoriously difficult to prove.

    3. Marriage and Parenting- Marriage is defined as one man and one woman. Current relationships not meeting that definition, yet recognized as a marriage, are immediately dissolved.

    Again, in direct contradiction to the bible.

    A parent is defined as a biological mother or father, adoptive mother or father, step-mother or step-father, foster mother or foster father.[1] A homosexual may be recognized as a parent only if they are the biological mother or father. Procreation by those living openly in a homosexual relationship is discouraged, and repeated offenses by homosexuals will subject them to criminal penalties.[2] Any person, homosexual or otherwise, who knowingly assists a homosexual in becoming pregnant, or with the procurement of a child, with the intent of that child being raised as part of a homosexual “family”, will be guilty of a felony, if convicted.

    1) This is actually the current definition.

    2) I notice that you have no problem with homosexuals in secret homosexual relationships. Your problem with gay people is that they aren’t invisible, isn’t it?

    4. Adoption- Adoption exists as a means of providing a loving home and family for children whose biological parents are unable to care for them. Children will only be adopted by married heterosexual couples that have been licensed by the state’s child welfare system.[1] These laws are also applicable to all private agencies, surrogates, and private citizens willfully terminating their parental rights in favor of adoption, as well as adoption from foreign countries.[2] These laws will not affect any current placements, or adoption proceedings currently in progress involving married heterosexual couples.

    1) So kids are better off without any parents than they are with homosexual parents. Gotcha.

    2) So you don’t actually give a shit about personal rights. Hey, what are you gonna do if I let my kid be raised by my gay brother while I’m in school?

    *Exception- If deemed beneficial to the child by mental health professionals, children who have suffered trauma from sexual abuse, rape, etc., may be adopted by single males or females. These single parents will be licensed as other adoptive parents are, in addition they will have specialized training provided by the state for dealing with the trauma of sexual abuse in children.

    This just doesn’t even make sense. What the fuck is going on in your head?

    5. Assisted Reproductive Technologies(ART)/ Surrogacy- The use of ART or surrogacy will be confined to married heterosexual couples, who have been married for at least one year. It is illegal to obtain or provide ART or surrogacy services by or to any non-married individuals or couples, or same-sex individuals or couples. Sperm banks are also forbidden from providing donor sperm to non-approved couples or individuals.

    Anne Jones: Officially in favour of male masturbation, and lots of it (so long as it doesn’t help those filthy homosexuals).

    6. Sex-Reassignment- Sex change operations and hormone replacement therapy are banned.[1] If a person wishes to go to another country to obtain such services, they will surrender their US citizenship.[2] This does not apply to people who are born with gender irregularity or ambiguous genitalia.[3] Those situations will be dealt with by parents and medical professionals. Whatever procedures and therapies are necessary will remain available for those affected individuals.

    1) WTF? WHY?

    2) Is this for all crimes, or just sex reassignment?

    3) Does body dysphoria count as “gender irregularity”?

    7. Alternate Lifestyles in the Public Arena- Alternate lifestyles such as homosexuality or transgenderism in one’s private life will not be made illegal, but expression of those lifestyles shall remain private.[1] Further, propaganda portraying alternate lifestyles in a positive light will be banned. Fines and penalties for disseminating propaganda, written or verbal, or public displays to or around children below 18 will be doubled.[2]

    1) Whats the cutoff point between “private” and “public”? Can I go have gay orgies on my private property in view of the window? If said orgy has 12 people, does it count as public? If I host a large orgy convention in a privately rented conference hall, and the only people who have access are the 450 people I privately invite, is that still private?

    2) What about gay or trans* kids who are younger than 18?

    8. Sex Education- Schools will offer sex education courses as an elective, requiring informed written consent to the curriculum, by the parents/guardians.[1] These courses will be segregated by gender and will focus on personal responsibility for any and all sexual behavior.[2] They will encourage children to wait until married before engaging in sexual activity, and will stress that sex between a man and a wife is the only acceptable form of sexual expression.[3] Students will be taught the available methods of birth control and disease prevention, but school personnel will not assist students with obtaining such.[4] These issues will be referred to the parent/guardian.

    1) Do the parents also get to decide that their child does not get to learn math?

    2) What is the point of this?

    3) Given that you allow gay lifestyles above (in private at least), the word “only” is wrong here.

    4) Will you also be teaching kids how to use a seat belt, and then cutting them out of cars they drive?

    That’s it, I’m done. That’s enough stupid.

    *************

    Thanks for the bunny, Gilliel. It is very much appreciated.

  143. says

    Thanks all for the help. I slammed my head against my desk too much last night. Especially after he said the Cambrian explosion just proves that his math is correct. He makes no sense.

  144. Thumper; Immorally Inferior Sergeant Major in the Grand Gynarchy Mangina Corps (GGMC) says

    @Myeck Waters

    16- Metric shall become compulsory. Speed limits will be in kmph, as will car speedos. Distance shall be measured in kilometres, metres, centimetres and millimetres. Meat shall be sold by the kilo and beer by the litre or half litre. Those caught selling meat by the pound will be beaten with a 2kg salami.

    All joking aside, do the US really have a different way of measuring paper? I assumed A4, A3, A2 etc. was universal :-/ though now I think about it I have no idea why that would be the case.

    A -100 is, as far as I’m aware, entirely made up :)

  147. annejones says

    PZ Myers:

    Annejones: are you here to discuss, or to lay down diktats? Engage or go away. We don’t need spambots dumping screeds here.

    I have been. I only copied and pasted my original message because I hadn’t seen the previous responses and I wanted people to answer my queries.

  148. carlie says

    All joking aside, do the US really have a different way of measuring paper? I assumed A4, A3, A2 etc. was universal :-/ though now I think about it I have no idea why that would be the case.

    We measure paper by actual MEASUREMENTS, by god, not some indecipherable code!

    8.5×11
    11×14
    5×7
    4×6
    3×5

    All inches, of course.

  149. annejones says

    Because uteri are state property.

    No, but intentionally ending a human life is murder. The fact that this stage in the normal development of a human being requires it to be in the uterus, does not change the fact that it is indeed a human life.

    Because people suffering in marriages they hated and taking out their rage passive aggressively (It”s what prior generations did ” spare me any fairy songs about how everyone only ever married those they loved, people have made mistakes in this kind of bonding for millennia) is totally better than a no-fault divorce.

    In this country today, no one is required to marry someone that they don’t love. This encourages people to get to know each other very well before making a vow to each other that says, “…till death do us part”. It puts commitment back in marriage.

    asinine, hateful, and more evidence that for all their squalling on keeping the state out of things, conservatives want it far more ingratiated into people”s personal life than socialists such as myself* do.

    How is defining marriage according to the biological productivity of a relationship more intrusive than a definition that allows for any two people to marry?? It’s still intrusive, but allows for what you approve of while still prohibiting others. Yes, I do believe that the state should get involved and enforce the definition of natural marriage.

    And just to pre-empt the inevitable objection where someone will undoubtedly claim something like that “the above means that a married woman who gets raped but decides to raise the child with her husband who isn’t the biological father doesn’t get to have her husband on the birth certificate”, I’m not sure how often this becomes an issue, but I would not be opposed to the husband being named as the father on the birth certificate, in such a case.

    Because only heteros can love a child . Because the state has no business in your life unless you”re gay.

    Only heteros can provide a home with a mother and father role in the home, raising the child. Simple common sense.

    but socialists are the ones who hate freedom? XD XD XD
    Yeah, standard heterosexist asshattery.

    Stopping homosexuals from using kids as a commodity that helps them mimic family life because they think it helps to give legitimacy to their relationship, equals heterosexism?? Normal people just call it common decency, but since you guys need to apply hateful labels to help you portray normal people as monsters, I’ll go ahead and plead guilty to this one.

    No, seriously, “small government” from you a$$holes is a laugh, but this isn”t hateful.

    I won’t lie, my goal is to make it difficult so as to discourage the practice of renting out your uterus to those who have no business raising children in their home.

    What a surprise, The heterosexist is cis-sexist too!

    What label would you use to define someone who says they feel like a horse in spite of their biology telling them that they’re human?? Grow up and stop whining because other people won’t give legitimacy to your made-up, leftist, liberal bullshit.

    AHAHAHAHAHA

    And they say we hate freedom of speech! Ahahahahaha.

    You have the freedom to practice whatever deviant form of sex you wish, in your own home, but freedom of speech does not give you the right to promote perversion in public, and especially around kids and in schools. Welcome to Anne Jones’s World, where the national motto is…

    “Like it or GTFO”

  150. says

    Well, yes and no. You can also call those “letter”, “legal” (8.5″ x 17″), “tabloid”, for the first three, anyway. :)

    Canada uses these too, in our usual hybrid of US and UK styles.

  151. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Welcome to Mullah Anne Jones’s World, where the national motto is…

    “Like it or GTFO”

    Spoken like a true Taliban Mullah.

  152. annejones says

    Leave it to Beaver: How things actually worked in those golden years. But ignore everything about the marginal tax rate on the rich being 95%, that’s just liberal propaganda.

    If you had taken time to read before squirting your diarrhea on the thread, you’d have noticed that this list is incomplete and nowhere have I admitted that is complete, and admittedly does not touch on many areas yet. It’s important to lay a moral groundwork and build from there, because many of todays problems can be made much more manageable by injecting some common sense and decency back into society.

    Because when has violence ever failed to solve an issue?

    Hurting little Johnny’s feelings isn’t violence. You teach little Johnny some manners at home, before sending him off to be cared for by someone else, and you won’t have to worry about the issue.

    respect, unless they’re gay or trans. In which case you want their ability to express themselves in the public sphere entirely fettered. I like how you’re pretending to care about Free Speech now, btw.

    Bullying of anyone on school property is forbidden, anyone includes homosexuals and trannies being protected by that rule. A school is not an appropriate place to practice your perversion, and kids should not be indoctrinated to accept perverse behavior as perfectly normal.

    White people’s over-concern with shootings is kinda adorable, I won’t lie.

    I like the scout motto, Be Prepared.

    That’s pretty much the status quo, you jackasses just try to pretend prayer is banned.

    I didn’t say that it was banned, but labeling it a reasonable means of expression simply keeps frivolous acts like an atheist group from Wisconsin, from having any standing to interfere with a school board having a prayer before its meeting in South Carolina. In that case, link below, the valedictorian and salutatorian were told by the school board that they were forbidden from making any reference to God or religion, at the biggest moment in their life. The bullying by the FFRF and the ACLU in similar cases, filing lawsuits, etc., is a ludicrous abuse of the legal system.

  155. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    The bullying by the FFRF and the ACLU in similar cases, filing lawsuits, etc., is a ludicrous abuse of the legal system.

    You mean the watchdogging of groups trying to violate the Constitution.

    The Constitution, that thing you obviously hate.

  156. Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle says

    It’s important to lay a moral groundwork and build from there, because many of todays problems can be made much more manageable by injecting some common sense and decency back into society.

    Translation:” We have buried the putrid corpse of liberty! (or at least I really, really want to. Fuck America!)”

  157. Walton says

    annejones, it’s pretty hard to respond to so much evil.

    There are several reasons. One is that it’s not easy to figure out where to even begin. Another is that so many things you say are so obviously evil that it’s really hard to imagine you haven’t noticed! Few people like to state the painfully obvious:

    QFT. That’s why I didn’t try to take her Manifesto o’Hate apart point by point.

    (But where she’s blithely disregarding actual objective facts, such as the fact that corporal punishment of children is empirically associated with psychological harm, I felt it was worth pointing it out. If only for the edification of lurkers.)

    sexual orientation is not contagious (as if it weren’t obvious enough on its own, an actual scientific study came out recently);

    As a tangent: although this is true, I’m somewhat uncomfortable with using it as a primary argument, because it seems implicitly to concede some ground to the homophobes. It’s obviously true that having gay parents, teaching kids about LGBT issues in schools, etc., won’t actually “turn kids gay” – but I think that when we’re saying this, we also ought to make the point that even if it actually did lead to more young people identifying as gay or bi, there wouldn’t be anything bad about that, because straightness is not actually better than queerness.

  158. Tony! The Immorally Inferior Queer Shoop! says

    annejones:

    I have been. I only copied and pasted my original message because I hadn’t seen the previous responses and I wanted people to answer my queries.

    Yes, but all you’re doing is restating your same bigoted, unsupported bullshit.
    You’ve had responses to all the stupid shit you’ve posted. Many of these responses have contained actual, relevant, science based information, rather than your biblical BS.

    You have been posting your screeds long enough to know that NONE of us has agreed with you and surely you’re not so ignorant as to think ANYONE here will ever agree with you.

    WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU HERE?

  159. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Annejones

    I have been.

    No, you have been preaching. You present no evidence, and don’t respond to evidence with evidence of your own. You aren’t capable of engaging in an evidence based argument. You will lose, and you know that.

  161. Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle says

    WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU HERE?

    Well, apart from adding to the pile of undeniable evidence that you hate American values so much that you consider completely controlling every aspect of individual citizen’s lives a moral imperative, but conveniently NOT corporations.

  162. Thumper; Immorally Inferior Sergeant Major in the Grand Gynarchy Mangina Corps (GGMC) says

    @Kevin #146

    I don’t understand. You want it to be mandatory to wear speedos while driving? Sure, why not? It would cut down on road rage issues. Who’s going to get out of their car if they’re wearing speedos?

    Also, your avatar is a red panda! :D :D :D

    They’re what a hipster racoon would like like.

    @carlie #148

    Ah, that does admittedly make more sense. Except for the inches, but Thumper’s Authoritarian Dictator Rule #16 will soon take care of that.

    @AnneJones #147

    I have been.

    Liar.

    #149

    Stopping homosexuals from using kids as a commodity that helps them mimic family life because they think it helps to give legitimacy to their relationship, equals heterosexism??

    No. You genuinely believing that a gay couple adopting a child is ” homosexuals… using kids as a commodity that helps them mimic family life because they think it helps to give legitimacy to their relationship” is heterosexism. Not to mention fucking stupid. And homophobic. And fucking stupid. Did I mention fucking stupid?

  163. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    but labeling it a reasonable means of expression simply keeps frivolous acts like an atheist group from Wisconsin, from having any standing to interfere with a school board having a prayer before its meeting in South Carolina.

    All blatantly unconstitutional acts, which if the folks were honest, had integrity, and and had good morals, they wouldn’t do.

  164. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    AnneJones, read Matthew 6:6-8, and tell me how ostentatious public prayer can be condoned by anybody calling themselves a Christian….

  166. Owlmirror says

    Welcome to Anne Jones’s World, where the national motto is…
     
    “Like it or GTFO”

    So you should have no problem in leaving the world of those who are not bigots and who reject your hate-filled bigotry.

    I note that in your fascist and totalitarian world, Isabella Miller either would not exist, or would be . . . where, exactly? Her biological mother and father (and the fertility doctor, and the non-biological mother) would all be in jail as felons, presumably. . . would Isabella be in jail with them? Or would you just leave her in the woods to die as the abominable offspring of criminals?

  168. says

    annejones of super-duper meanness, Judas has some of those things, what do you call ’em, oh yeah, words for you, about that fuck up of a god of yours:

    Ev’ry time I look at you
    I don’t understand
    Why you let the things you did
    Get so out of hand
    You’d have managed better
    If you’d had it planned
    Now why’d you choose such a backward time
    And such a strange land?

    If you’d come today
    You could have reached a whole nation
    Israel in 4 BC
    Had no mass communication
    (Don’t you get me wrong)
    Don’t you get me wrong
    (Don’t you get me wrong, now)
    Don’t you get me wrong

    Only want to know
    (Only want to know, now)
    Only want to know

    Jesus Christ
    Jesus Christ
    Who are you? What have you sacrificed?
    Jesus Christ
    Jesus Christ
    Who are you? What have you sacrificed?
    Jesus Christ
    Superstar
    Do you think you’re what they say you are?
    Jesus Christ
    Superstar
    Do you think you’re what they say you are?

    Tell me what you think
    About your friends at the top
    Now who d’you think besides yourself
    Was the pick of the crop?
    Buddah was he where it’s at?
    Is he where you are?

    Could Mahomet move a mountain
    Or was that just PR?
    Did you mean to die like that?
    Was that a mistake or
    Did you know your messy death
    Would be a record breaker?

    (Don’t you get me wrong) Don’t you get me wrong
    (Don’t you get me wrong, now) Don’t you get me wrong

  169. Esteleth, statistically significant to p ≤ 0.001 says

    car speedos

    So…I totally just had a mental image of a car wearing a swimsuit.

    I got +++ ERROR DIVIDE BY CHEESE +++

  170. Jacob Schmidt says

    The fact that this stage in the normal development of a human being requires it to be in the uterus, does not change the fact that it is indeed a human life.

    The idea that a fetus is a person does not change the fact that denying control of ones body is a violation of human rights.

    In this country today, no one is required to marry someone that they don’t love. This encourages people to get to know each other very well before making a vow to each other that says, “…till death do us part”. It puts commitment back in marriage.

    So this is literally about reducing freedom.

    No, no one is required to marry one they don’t love. But, by your reasoning, one is required to stay in a marriage to someone they do not love. You seem to think that relationship are static rather than dynamic. You also make it significantly harder for one in an abusive relationship to leave their abuser; you’ve ignored that particular criticism.

    How is defining marriage according to the biological productivity of a relationship more intrusive than a definition that allows for any two people to marry??[1] It’s still intrusive, but allows for what you approve of while still prohibiting others.[2] Yes, I do believe that the state should get involved and enforce the definition of natural marriage.[3]

    1) The former inhibits arbitrarily; the latter does not.

    2) This is too ambiguous to parse well.

    3) Marriage is not, nor ever was, natural.

    Only heteros can provide a home with a mother and father role in the home, raising the child. Simple common sense.

    Simple common assumptions. You’ve yet to demonstrate any need for a “father role” or “mother role”. Anything a mother can do, a father can do, with the exception of certain biological restrictions. However, artificial formula replaces breast milk quite well, so that will never be an issue.

    Stopping homosexuals from using kids as a commodity that helps them mimic family life because they think it helps to give legitimacy to their relationship, equals heterosexism?? Normal people just call it common decency, but since you guys need to apply hateful labels to help you portray normal people as monsters, I’ll go ahead and plead guilty to this one.

    Your assumption that homosexuals are using kids as a commodity rather than loving them as parents is heterosexism. Amusingly, you are the ones treating children as a commodity to deny the legitimacy of homosexuality.

    What label would you use to define someone who says they feel like a horse in spite of their biology telling them that they’re human??[1] Grow up and stop whining because other people won’t give legitimacy to your made-up, leftist, liberal bullshit.[2]

    1) Dunno; never met one. I have met trans* people, however.

    2) You’ve yet to answer my question about gender/body dysphoria; I take it you’ve also placed nearly all medical and psychological groups into the leftist, liberal bullshit camp?

    You have the freedom to practice whatever deviant form of sex you wish, in your own home, but freedom of speech does not give you the right to promote perversion in public, and especially around kids and in schools.

    AHAHAHAHA, it literally does.

    Hurting little Johnny’s feelings isn’t violence. You teach little Johnny some manners at home, before sending him off to be cared for by someone else, and you won’t have to worry about the issue.

    But corporal punishment is. You don’t get to walk back from that now.

    Bullying of anyone on school property is forbidden[1], anyone includes homosexuals and trannies being protected by that rule. A school is not an appropriate place to practice your perversion[2], and kids should not be indoctrinated to accept perverse behavior as perfectly normal.[3]

    1) In principle; not in practice (though you wish to change that principle, since corporal punishment is bullying).

    2) EWWWW! Johny kissed a boy! Mary is wearing boy clothes! EEEEEEWWWWWW!

    Seriously, you sound like a petulant child when you pretend your arbitrary bigotry has any objective quality to it.

    3) It actually takes indoctrination to teach kids that being gay or trans* is wrong; young children who haven’t been indoctrinated yet typically have little to no problem accepting gay and trans* people. It’s the adults teaching them that seem to be the problem.

    I didn’t say that it was banned, but labeling it a reasonable means of expression simply keeps frivolous acts like an atheist group from Wisconsin, from having any standing to interfere with a school board having a prayer before its meeting in South Carolina.[1] In that case, link below, the valedictorian and salutatorian were told by the school board that they were forbidden from making any reference to God or religion, at the biggest moment in their life.[2] The bullying by the FFRF and the ACLU in similar cases, filing lawsuits, etc., is a ludicrous abuse of the legal system.[3]

    1) You’ll note that a school board is not a student. Your proposed “change” doesn’t actually address this.

    2) Because the valedictorian represents the student body, not his or herself. If you want to express prayer at your graduation, do it on behalf of yourself, not the entire student body. (Also, if you peaked in highschool, I have to feel bad for you. I’m happier right here at my laptop than I was during my graduation. Holy fuck was that ceremony ever tedious.)

    3) Your understanding of the constitution is weak.

  171. Tony! The Immorally Inferior Queer Shoop! says

    annejones:

    No, but intentionally ending a human life is murder. The fact that this stage in the normal development of a human being requires it to be in the uterus, does not change the fact that it is indeed a human life.

    Fine.
    No human being has the right to make use of another human beings body against their will. Fetus or not.
    If you think that fetuses have the right to use the body of another human being, then you also agree to forced blood transfusion.

    Moreover, you show all this fucking concern over a fetus, but once the fetus is born, your ridiculous list above means they start losing rights. You do not want people to grow up to become individuals, you want them to grow up to be clones of you and other religious bigots.

    Also, why do fetuses are not ‘persons’.
    They do not have any of the qualities of personhood.
    Why then, do you attempt to grant fetuses the same rights as a person?

    This encourages people to get to know each other very well before making a vow to each other that says, “…till death do us part”. It puts commitment back in marriage.

    Why do you get to have any say in anyone’s marriage?
    If you think commitment is so important, stay committed in your marriage. What goes on in ther marriages is none of your goddamned business. Nor is it any of your imaginary God’s damn business.

    How is defining marriage according to the biological productivity of a relationship more intrusive than a definition that allows for any two people to marry??

    Do you ever actually get out of your church?
    You want to limit marriage to one of the 8 types of marriage found in the bible.
    You want to prevent people that you do not like from getting married.
    You want the government to impose restrictions on marriage, for no reason other than religious ones.
    That’s an intrusion on the private lives of consenting adults.

    Next you’ll be advocating for the government to monitor peoples’ bedrooms so oral sex doesn’t occur.

  172. says

    Next you’ll be advocating for the government to monitor peoples’ bedrooms so oral sex doesn’t occur.

    Well, yes, but we have to give the drone pilots something to do when we run out of brown people to blow up. Also, the In-Bedroom Monitors (all the people who used to waste their time making computers and software, saved the logo, changed the mission when it was nationalized under the “Small Government Act” of Never-ever) will be tastefully dressed in dark clothes, and will be hardly noticable in your government-approved Thursday Night Reproduction Time.

  173. Tony! The Immorally Inferior Queer Shoop! says

    annejones:

    The bullying by the FFRF and the ACLU in similar cases, filing lawsuits, etc., is a ludicrous abuse of the legal system.

    Someone doesn’t know their Constitution. Separation of Church & State. It is not bullying. The FFRF and the ACLU are fighting to protect the constitutional rights of all Americans where people like you continually seek to infringe on those rights.
    BTW, your religious privilege is showing.

    See, you’re not *just* a bigot.

  175. chigau (違う) says

    carlie
    annejones does not believe that intersex people exist.
    annejones does not believe that the state of being intersex exists.

  176. Esteleth, statistically significant to p ≤ 0.001 says

    I’m guessing that her parenthetical about “genital abnormality” is about intersex people.

    Also guessing that she thinks that the correct thing to do is when a child is born intersex to pick a sex and “normalize” the child’s genitals.

  177. says

    Carlie:

    annejones keeps ignoring my intersex question. :(

    Oh, in Super-duper meanness world, there’s no such thing. Just babbies with a wee deformity that can be fixed right up with a little surgery.

  178. chigau (違う) says

    I just figured it out.
    The Geyz® have to pretend to be like the Normal™ people because they are actually aliens.
    Like the Coneheads.

  179. says

    Annejones:

    Shut the fuck up about the scout motto, because I guarantee you you have not the slightest idea of how to go about being prepared. For that matter, your entire manifesto violates EVERY SINGLE ITEM of the Scout Law: trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent. (An aside – the latter is interpreted by many many scouts and leaders to refer more to one’s attitude towards and treatment of the natural world than to fawning before a Magic Sky Bully(tm)).

    Being prepared is having a gun safe, having a society with a vastly diminished number of guns, and knowing first aid and shelter-in-place skills. It is not arming the kindergarten teacher with rocket-propelled grenade launchers.

  180. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Carlie
    First, annejones included this in her original BS

    6. Sex-Reassignment- Sex change operations and hormone replacement therapy are banned. If a person wishes to go to another country to obtain such services, they will surrender their US citizenship. This does not apply to people who are born with gender irregularity or ambiguous genitalia. Those situations will be dealt with by parents and medical professionals. Whatever procedures and therapies are necessary will remain available for those affected individuals.

    Second, I don’t know whether or not you are intersex or not, but the way you write about the topic is as an outsider.

    There is a long history of non-intersex people using intersex people as props – for their careers, for their courses, for their arguments. Your “questions” to annejones come across as a repeat of that fucked up history.

    If you wanted to hold yourself up and ask, “What about me?” it would be scary to me, but I’d be fine with it.

    To use the intersex sexual organs of other people as a shock-prop to make the minds of non-intersex people explode is no different to me than med school profs using pictures of intersex folk with the genitals visible but the faces blacked out in order to have fun watching their students’ heads explode.

    Stop it. Right the fuck now.

    No one else’s genitalia is yours to throw in front of annejones for your amusement. it was triggering enough to see her use “ambiguous genitalia”, but she’s annejones.

    For you to fail to read her work, then assume a tone of knowledge from where you repeatedly point to other people’s genitals so you can smirk knowingly – again and again and again – when we’ve already had to deal with her posting her crap here twice…it’s frustrating. It’s humiliating. It’s awful as F.

    Stop it. Right the fuck now.

    ==================
    For the rest of the Horde:
    And grilled cheezus, I had to walk away from this thread for a bit b/c of no spoons and in the time I’ve been gone no one else asks you to stop this?

    Why is this on me?

  181. David Marjanović says

    Oh crap. Looked something up on Wikipedia, got distracted for hours, found that I hadn’t submitted the following comment. Now I finally want to start to work, so I haven’t caught up beyond my own comment 141.

    From there:

    You want to beat children up?

    To be fair, that’s not what you’ve said. But where’s the difference to the kids? What does it change who beats them up? You want children to be beaten, and that is evil. In other news, the sun rose this morning, and experts predict it’ll set this evening.

    From elsewhere:

    Said Hamlet to Ophelia,
    I’ll draw a sketch of thee,
    What kind of pencil shall I use?
    2B or not 2B?

    Spike Milligan

    I haven’t laughed so hard in weeks! :-D :-D :-D Day saved!

    Which version of the 10 commandments will be posted?

    Indeed: Exodus 20:3–17, preferred by Protestants, or Deuteronomy 5:7–21, the version that allows Catholics to list “thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife” and “thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s goods” as two separate commandments and to keep the number at 10 by not having to pretend that “I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage” (Ex 20:2) = “I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage” (Deu 5:6) is a commandment?

    reading the bible in translation is like “kissing through a canvas curtain”

    I like that.

    …The saying, I mean. I haven’t tried kissing through canvas or a curtain.

  183. says

    No, but intentionally ending a human life is murder.

    Maybe, but choosing not to let someone else use your organs is a normal choice for humans. If you’re not caviling that people should be forced to give up their organs in any other sense, uteri should be no different. Except Uteri are community property, under your barbaric concept of society.

    The fact that this stage in the normal development of a human being requires it to be in the uterus, does not change the fact that it is indeed a human life.

    I’m a human life. I’m about 2000% sure that if my life required a kidney transplant, you would be against the state mandating that kidney transplant from you (assuming you were a match).

    In this country today, no one is required to marry someone that they don’t love. This encourages people to get to know each other very well before making a vow to each other that says, “…till death do us part”. It puts commitment back in marriage.

    Commitment’s already in marriage. Do you think divorce is easy? No-fault restricts the punitive aspects, yes, but that doesn’t mean it’s some cakewalk, either legally or emotionally. And uh, actually people are not much less forced to marry now as they have been historically (Social pressure can be a terrible thing). People have always been in unhappy marriages; that’s why divorce, solely amongst europeans, has existed for more than a millenia (Let alone anyone else). We just restricted it nonsensically.

    Also, more state intervention. I don’t mind the concept, but you’re the one treating it as an alleged evil.

    How is defining marriage according to the biological productivity of a relationship more intrusive than a definition that allows for any two people to marry??

    A: Biological productivity is a bad thing given that we don’t have alternate energy and are running out of fuel, as well as potable water.

    B: Well, any two consenting adults. But, to answer the question, it’s the state saying “No, you can’t enjoy the benefits of married life ever, and you can’t list yourselves as married without suffering retribution”, the latter especially in your model. Whereas in mine, nothing stops you from being an asshole to gay people except your concern for other people’s opinions of you.

    And just to pre-empt the inevitable objection where someone will undoubtedly claim something like that “the above means that a married woman who gets raped but decides to raise the child with her husband who isn’t the biological father doesn’t get to have her husband on the birth certificate”, I’m not sure how often this becomes an issue, but I would not be opposed to the husband being named as the father on the birth certificate, in such a case.

    But you would prevent two actual fathers from listing themselves on the birth certificate, and proudly, so I don’t see how this saves you.

    Only heteros can provide a home with a mother and father role in the home, raising the child. Simple common sense.

    ‘a mother and father role’ as TRU BIOFAX is wrong. ‘Simple common sense’ fails you as much as it has failed the USian people in thinking military force can solve complex political situations.

    Stopping homosexuals from using kids as a commodity that helps them mimic family life because they think it helps to give legitimacy to their relationship, equals heterosexism??

    Considering that you created a blanket ban on gay parenting to stop gays from allegedly using kids as a commodity to mimic family life, yes. If that actually happens to a degree further than that of heteros (Unlikely; heteros already often have kids out of ‘normalcy’, and they don’t have half the country hating them for contemplating children, unlike gay people), then it’d have to be case by case – and hetero cases would have to be judged too. But all heteros get a pass, and all gay people get banned; that’s very nearly the definition of heterosexist.

    I won’t lie, my goal is to make it difficult so as to discourage the practice of renting out your uterus to those who have no business raising children in their home.

    Do you realize that surrogate mothers have been a thing long before gay people realized we could hire them? And you object to being called heterosexist? What the fuck? You should be wearing it as a badge of pride, not shying away from it.

    What label would you use to define someone who says they feel like a horse in spite of their biology telling them that they’re human??

    There’s a specific brand of furry that does that, but I forget what they’re called.

    Grow up and stop whining because other people won’t give legitimacy to your made-up, leftist, liberal bullshit.

    This, from the woman whining that I’m not accepting her made-up bullshit on how gender is biofax and not an invention at all XD

    You have the freedom to practice whatever deviant form of sex you wish, in your own home, but freedom of speech does not give you the right to promote perversion in public, and especially around kids and in schools. Welcome to Anne Jones’s World, where the national motto is…

    Actually, freedom of speech explicitly means being able to promote ‘perversion’ in public, especially without the threat of state power hanging over our heads. The entire concept revolves around the right to make political statements (Like “Gay people are normal people”, because the world is fucked up enough to question it in the real world, let alone your fucked up wet dream) without the state threatening to punish you based on the contents of your beliefs, or your willingness to share them. I differ from most Meriken socialists in that I don’t agree with the absolutist form that Meriken tend to demand, but I don’t hail myself as a defender of Free Speech as you do.

    “Like it or GTFO”

    See, here’s the thing: I know you made up your own little fantasy world, but in it, you cast yourself as defender of freedom of speech, while explicitly banning it. In fact, “Like it or GTFO” means no complaining and no protesting – which again, bans freedom of speech (and association, almost inevitably). Do you not understand that the things you claim to care about don’t just apply to you?

    If you had taken time to read before squirting your diarrhea on the thread, you’d have noticed that this list is incomplete and nowhere have I admitted that is complete, and admittedly does not touch on many areas yet. It’s important to lay a moral groundwork and build from there, because many of todays problems can be made much more manageable by injecting some common sense and decency back into society.

    ‘common sense’ is your pattern-seeking brain finding ‘wisdom’ where there is none. In your world ‘decency’ means lying to teens and not adequately preparing for facts of life.

    Hurting little Johnny’s feelings isn’t violence. You teach little Johnny some manners at home, before sending him off to be cared for by someone else, and you won’t have to worry about the issue.

    “Corporal punishment” is not “Hurting feelings”. It is explicitly violence – do you know what any of the words I just used actually means? Corporal punishment means beating children, not saying mean words to them.

    FYI, you said “At the principle’s discretion”. That means that it can be done for any fucking reason whatsoever – Were I principal, I could beat your children senseless (or to the limits you’ve set out) because I don’t like you – even if you taught them what passes for ‘morals’ in your eyes, and even if I agreed with those morals.

    Bullying of anyone on school property is forbidden, anyone includes homosexuals and trannies being protected by that rule. A school is not an appropriate place to practice your perversion, and kids should not be indoctrinated to accept perverse behavior as perfectly normal.

    They should instead be indoctrinated instead to hate normal people, like the gays.

    I like the scout motto, Be Prepared.

    You would, wouldn’t you? Whereas in the real world, this implementation of ‘be prepared’ will probably increase school shootings.

    I didn’t say that it was banned, but labeling it a reasonable means of expression simply keeps frivolous acts like an atheist group from Wisconsin, from having any standing to interfere with a school board having a prayer before its meeting in South Carolina. In that case, link below, the valedictorian and salutatorian were told by the school board that they were forbidden from making any reference to God or religion, at the biggest moment in their life. The bullying by the FFRF and the ACLU in similar cases, filing lawsuits, etc., is a ludicrous abuse of the legal system.

    Wait, you’re not talking about kids in day-to-day life? You’re an ignoramus.. Do you know what the first amendment tot he constitution is?

    As to banning ‘our father’ at the speech… you consider that establishment by the school, and I know this because you wouldn’t let that woman make a speech on gay rights (Which, just fyi, is not religious), and you consider that ‘indoctrination’.

    Also, seriously, can PZ please warn this jackass? She has consistently thrown out that transphobic slur like it’s nothing, and it’s getting old fast.

  185. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    There’s a specific brand of furry that does that, but I forget what they’re called.

    I’m in the same predicament.

    I keep thinking, “Eqwhuh’s?”

  186. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @annejones

    intentionally ending a human life is murder.

    No. It’s really, really not. It could be self-defense. It could be suicide. It could be legal execution. It could be warfare.

    Murder is a thing. If you don’t know what it is, don’t use the word. I have no patience for bullshit today.

  187. cicely says

    Daily *hug* dump for These Trying Threads.
    Also: Foxes on a trampoline.
    –
    Hi, Michelle Rogers, and Welcome in!
    –

    One of my liberal, progressive, more feminist friends on facebook today told me: “As a lawyer, I’m sure you can see that the evidence against the defendants [in the Steubenville case] was insufficient.”

    O.o
     
    o.O
     
    WTF?
    –
    Quoth annejones:

    Since people didn’t respond to it properly last time, here it is again:

    I assume that by “properly” you must mean, “approvingly”.
    You’ll not get that here.
    –
    *applause* for CaitieCat.
    :)
    –

  188. says

    Crip Dyke:

    Stop it. Right the fuck now.

    No one else’s genitalia is yours to throw in front of annejones for your amusement.

    Knowing Carlie, I doubt it was for amusement’s sake. That said, you are right, and as for why you end up dealing with this? Perhaps because at the moment, you are the best equipped to do so. Also, I glaze right past annejones’s posts, and most of the responses. I am sorry, I’ll be more attentive in the future.

  189. says

    I hadn’t been reading the Horde’s responses to AJ, by and large. I concur with Crip Dyke though, I think. Also, I think I’ll start reading the Horde’s responses.

  190. chigau (違う) says

    Crip Dyke
    Have you seen the documentary InterSEXion?
    CBC ran it on their Passionate Eye series and it’s available on their website.
    I found it informative in a truly horrifying way.
    I’d like your opinion as to whether it would be a good thing to point to for educating people.
    It’s brutally hard to watch, though.

  193. DLC says

    Thumper; Immorally Inferior Sergeant Major in the Grand Gynarchy Mangina Corps (GGMC) :
    (waaaayy back at 124)

    6. Sex-Reassignment- Compulsory sex reassignment for everyone! Everyone should experience life from an alternative viewpoint, to which end they will spend their teenage years as the opposite sex to that which they are born as, before being switched back when they hit 20.

    But what if, after reaching 20, they do not wish to flip back to the original gender ?

  194. carlie says

    Thank you, Crip Dyke, you’re right. The reason that I was thinking about it, and was kind of insistent to her about it, was not to be a “gotcha” but because I teach a course on the evolution of sex and it is a topic that we devote some amount of time on, particularly in trying to get across the idea that it isn’t something that one can just choose or is, as she put it, a little “deformity” that can be easily manipulated in some way. I try to make sure my classes understand that gender isn’t an easy binary from a biological standpoint (people aren’t even a topic until the last week of class), and that there are also sociological issues that stem from that when we talk about humans. I was in teacher mode, trying to pull her out on that one thing to open up more on gendered roles, and you’re totally right to call me out on the carpet for it being inappropriate.

    In general, it’s a really tricky area trying to talk about things that are not part of one’s own experience without somehow objectifying them, and I totally fell into that here. I’ve obviously got a lot of going back and learning things to do while shutting up, and it’s a point well taken. I’m really sorry.

  197. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    I don’t really have time, but I’m kinda thinking I should just spend a whole week pointing out casual anti-trans oppression.

    I don’t wanna do it b/c you’re all evil people. Frankly, if I didn’t have some faith that you were good people, wlling to learn, then I would believe that education is wasted on you and isn’t worth the effort. So when I slam your behavior when you had no idea that you were doing anything at all to erase trans* people from the earth.

    Okay, so faith that you’re willing to learn removes a reason *not* to do it. But why do I want to slam all this language, all the time, for as much of the next little while as I can manage?

    It’s just that I ignore so much to participate in these threads, that i think people have no idea what they’re asking of trans and intersex folk. I hope to give you some idea of what it might be like to be bombarded day after day in every frickin’ thread… though so as not to get banned myself, I’m gonna confine most of my activities to TD.

    We’ll start with Thumper & DLC

    6. Sex-Reassignment- Compulsory sex reassignment for everyone! Everyone should experience life from an alternative viewpoint, to which end they will spend their teenage years as the opposite sex to that which they are born as, before being switched back when they hit 20.

    But what if, after reaching 20, they do not wish to flip back to the original gender?

    @Thumper:
    “Opposite” is a duality concept. Thank you for defining all intersex and trans people out of existence. The people who violently stab our genital regions as part of murderous overkill in an attempt to remove the possibility of anything other than duality appreciate your support of their philosophy, though they note your failure to embrace their tactics.

    @DLC
    Sex is not gender.

    If my sex was indistinguishable from my gender, I would have no way to even articulate the concept of being trans which requires an appreciation of one’s membership (assumed, assigned, voluntary, coerced, enforced, or otherwise) in one category **in relationship to one’s membership in another category**.

    if the categories were the same, there could be no such thing as society disapproving of having a gender which society disapproves of for that sex.

    Congratulations, DLC, for defining transsexual people and a good number of transgender people out of existence. The religious right welcomes your agreement with their position that transsexuality is non-existent and a non-sense category, though it notes you still refuse to agree that the bible is good evidence supporting that position.

  198. Owlmirror says

    I think I’m going to step up and disagree with Crip Dyke on this one point. I think a lot of what she’s said has been important and correct, but I think that not talking about intersex people erases them, especially to totalitarian gender essentialists like annejones.

    I’ve used intersex people as an example myself, in trying to promote the idea that is between people’s legs is not and should not be relevant to the State, in terms of granting or withholding rights, and I don’t think it’s wrong to point out the various edge cases that a gender essentialist perspective is not equipped to consider.

    Gay people are already a minority, and annejones hates them and wants them to be in hiding, banished, or in prison, and she probably really wants them dead. But she can bluster her way into justifying her hate by saying that practicing one’s sexual orientation is a choice, and she hates that freedom of choice.

    Trans* people are an even smaller minority, and annejones hates them and wants them to be in hiding, in prison, or banished, and she probably really wants them dead. But she can bluster her way into justifying her hate by saying that changing one’s gender is a choice, and will not be a legal choice, in her freedom-hating world.

    Intersex people are an even smaller minority, and I’m pretty sure that annejones hates them as well, and she probably really wants them dead as well. But they can’t choose to be born as they are. Her “solution” is, of course, to deny them the choice of their own gender (or selection of genders, depending on how they wish to present), leaving it up to the parents and doctors. And of course, in annejones’ horrible totalitarian world, an intersex child for whom the parents and doctors made the wrong choice would be banished if they wanted to make a different choice, upon growing up.

    I think it’s worthwhile to point out to annejones’ that her hatred of freedom causes harm to minorities like intersex people, although I’m not sure that it’s really that helpful, because she obviously thinks that hatred of minorities is a good thing, and that harming minorities is a good thing.

  199. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    On the other hand, with the sequential dustbinning of the texpip, StevoR, and annejones, has the Thunderdome actually, *gasp*, run out of trolls?

    wait

    StevoR actually/finally got banned?

  200. Esteleth, statistically significant to p ≤ 0.001 says

    While all that’s true Owlmirror, the people who get to decide when a minority group gets used as a cudgel to whallop someone with rhetorically are that minority group.

  202. carlie says

    I think it’s worthwhile to point out to annejones’ that her hatred of freedom causes harm to minorities like intersex people

    That’s what I was trying to do, but I did it by using intersex as a cudgel that I was wielding, which was not right in any sense. Crip Dyke, I have a good sense of where I should go to fill in the holes of what I should have learned the first time, and I’m glad that you pointed them out before I continued falling into them and hurting people even more.

  204. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @carlie

    I never thought you were a bad person. I’m taking on behavior here.

    Also, you’re not alone, my treatment of Thumper & DLC’s language is much more harsh.

    If you are a teacher and teach about this, I’d like to make a suggestion.

    Stop.

    This isn’t because of this one mistake. It’s because there’s no such thing as ethical quality control in this area. Bring in Emi Koyama, Alice Dreger, or me to discuss intersex ethics and review your course material if you want to cover it. In the meantime, even when people are bringing up intersex in order to benefit intersex folk, misinformation and casual mistakes of gender and sex are so common that you are probably sending a very mixed message. When you aren’t bringing up intersex in order to benefit intersex folk, it’s almost certainly going to go badly.

    I say this after years in academia and never once meeting a professor who could consistently, on the fly such as when answering a student question, always and correctly make the distinction between sex and gender.

    And once you start conflating the two, you’re just spouting the talking points of the most hateful people around.

    Unless you have a supervisor who has done work on intersex ethics that can hold you accountable (some random intersex person from your community isn’t enough, we haven’t all studied ethics) then you are in a position of unaccountable power juggling knives over the heads of others.

    Seriously, I recommend that you don’t teach in this area without a review from a competent intersex ethicist also familiar enough with the biology to understand what you’re attempting to communicate so that the suggestions can be most useful to you.

    On second thought, Emi might not be the best at that last bit, but she’s probably good enough. Alice Dreger would be ideal.

    i am available in another life for hiring as a consultant.

    in the meantime, again, strongly considering dropping it.

  205. carlie says

    I swear, Esteleth, I was composing that in a window that didn’t have your response yet. Didn’t mean to plagiarize.

  206. Owlmirror says

    Crip Dyke, I honestly did try to get it right, as best I could. If I got something wrong, please call it out, so I can try and do better.

  207. carlie says

    Crip Dyke – most of the course is about sex; people at all are only the last week, and then it’s “and gender is a whole different thing”, with trans and intersex as different subjects and intersex info mostly from ISNA. It’s at least a year before the class comes up again, so it’s a lot of time for me to figure out how to get it evaluated or to eliminate it entirely.

  208. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Owlmirror:
    I said:

    There is a long history of non-intersex people using intersex people as props – for their careers, for their courses, for their arguments. Your “questions” to annejones come across as a repeat of that fucked up history.

    You said:

    I think I’m going to step up and disagree with Crip Dyke on this one point. I think a lot of what she’s said has been important and correct, but I think that not talking about intersex people erases them,

    I thank you for your disagreement. I will make mistakes, and if you won’t stand up to me when things are most emotionally powerful, then it is my most damaging mistakes that will be repeated.

    however, in this instance, I believe that I can make it clear you’ve misread me.

    1) I never said don’t mention the topic of intersex. To annejones or anyone else.
    2) I already mentioned in my original comment that annejones was aware of intersex – annejones didn’t erase intersex folk, she advocated brutality toward them.
    3) carlie’s comment did not create awareness of the harm done to intersex folk. The entirety of what was said amounts to, “Intersex genitals exist!” Where is the education of annejones harm? What would it add to the discussion if I screamed: “Owlmirror has genitalia!”
    4) if bringing up intersex persons is being used to counter the oppression of intersex persons, I’m all for it. If bringing up intersex persons is being used to win an argument to which the actual harm to intersex persons is peripheral, it’s wrong.
    5) Since no one mentioned the harm to intersex persons, I believe it is safe to conclude the harm done to intersex persons and preventing annejones’ actions from harming intersex persons were as peripheral as it gets.

    I appreciate the dissent, Owlmirror. I think your criticism is off base. In fact, I don’t think you’ll ever find me advocating silence on any topic. The most I ever advocate is “shut up and listen” when harm is being done, but that’s not silencing a topic, that’s asking for harmful behavior to stop unless and until better behavior can be mastered.

  209. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Owlmirror:

    In the spirit of open response to your request for feedback:

    I think besides reading me as advocating silence on an entire topic/class of people, you’re doing better than most. However let me add:

    I’ve used intersex people as an example myself, in trying to promote the idea that is between people’s legs is not and should not be relevant to the State, in terms of granting or withholding rights, and I don’t think it’s wrong to point out the various edge cases that a gender essentialist perspective is not equipped to consider.

    Why are intersex people the edge cases? What about someone who has had a hysterectomy, intersex or not? What is it about non-intersex people that makes them not-edge and intersex people that makes them edge? You may have a good education on the topic and a complex, human view of intersex people, but aren’t you, yourself, voluntary placing intersex people in the position of “edge” and therefore “not normal” when you do this?

    Further, do you want the state ONLY out of the pants of intersex folk? Why? If not, then shouldn’t you have an argument using non-intersex folk that is at least as convincing as that using intersex folk?

    Trans* people are an even smaller minority, and annejones hates them and wants them to be in hiding, in prison, or banished, and she probably really wants them dead. But she can bluster her way into justifying her hate by saying that changing one’s gender is a choice,

    This one is iffy, b/c it is what annejones would say. However, does a transsexual person change gender or change sex? Please explain your answer.

    If you aren’t ready to explain your answer, you risk putting yourself in a conversational position where someone might ask you a question in which your answer is indistinguishable from annejones’ answer. I, of course, give you the benefit of the doubt here, as you were clearly saying that this is specifically what annejones would say and not merely stating in your own words a position with which you disagree.

    Intersex people are an even smaller minority, and I’m pretty sure that annejones hates them as well, and she probably really wants them dead as well. But they can’t choose to be born as they are. Her “solution” is, of course, to deny them the choice of their own gender (or selection of genders, depending on how they wish to present), leaving it up to the parents and doctors.

    Like many people interested in genocide, she’s not interested in interest people being dead, she’s interested in intersex people never having existed at all, ever.

    This is a subtle point, but read the UN adopted Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, which includes this definition of genocide:

    …any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    (a) Killing members of the group;
    (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
    (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
    (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
    (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

    While the legal definition limits its application to crimes against “a national, ethnical, racial or religious group”, it is vital to note here for our purposes that genocide isn’t merely a lot of murders. It doesn’t have to include any murders. It’s conspiring to make a group not exist.

    Don’t assign to annejones the desire to murder when she is
    a) not guilty of that through the plain language of her own writing
    b) actually guilty of something far, far, far worse. Something so barbaric that on most days the word doesn’t pass through my brain and which causes me to shake as I type this.

    annejones advocates intersex genocide. Don’t ever let her off easy.

  211. says

    Crip Dyke:

    What about someone who has had a hysterectomy, intersex or not?

    Or, why not someone like me? I was repeatedly denied sterilisation when I was 17, so I went for the next best thing, a Copper-7 IUD, which had a rep for causing infertility. It did a bang up job in my case, so the need to be surgically sterilised was no longer necessary.

  212. says

    DLC:

    Sorry. not going to be trolled. Thanks.

    You weren’t being trolled, and I expect you know that. What you did was fuck up, and you caused offense. Now, you had a chance to actually learn something, so you won’t mistakenly hurt someone in the future.

    I suppose I should thank you for letting us all know, upfront, that you have no interest in learning.

  213. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @ Caine:

    You are a creative genius … and I’m sorry you were put through that.

  214. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says

    Crip Dyke,

    Natalie Reed linked to this and I find it useful for a simplified, quick clarification of sex/gender difference. That one works ok?

  215. says

    Crip Dyke, thanks. :) As for the creative part, eh, I was really lucky the Copper-7s were around, and that I had health issues which allowed me to say a very loud ‘no!’ to the pill. Even so, the doctor, who was a woman, argued with me for 2 fucking hours over my choice, wanting me to take the pill instead. Back in the ’70s, it was just appalling to people, the thought of a woman not wanting to breed.

  216. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says

    Just for preventing ignorant cis folks for stepping right into it and hurting someone, not as anything approaching complete education, of course.

  217. says

    Beatrice:

    Natalie Reed linked to this and I find it useful for a simplified, quick clarification of sex/gender difference. That one works ok?

    I’ve always found Genderbread Person to be helpful, especially when you need quick basics for someone very new to such issues.

  218. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @beatrice

    One problem with these is that they are often created by trans folk without the input of intersex folk.

    There are 3 problems:

    one is that the “spectra” are presented with all of the traditional categories, e.g. “woman” and “man,” at opposite ends of the line. While the line clearly has arrows pointing left and right which suggests a continuation beyond “woman” and “man” (likewise for the other lines), the positioning says to most people that these are as far apart as you can get. It’s nice to get away from checkboxes. To that extent it’s great. It’s not doing away with all the problems, however.

    Second is that to be intersex is not to be “a combination of” male and female. Many intersex traits are unique to being intersex. An intersex phallus is not half-a-penis+half-a-clit.

    Third is that many categories, including intersex, don’t naturally fall as “middle ground” between two other categories. Genderqueer is not being half-masculine and half-feminine. A sheet with eye holes may conceal your gender on Halloween, but is it androgynous? Why or why not?

    If you are able and willing to talk about these three things, I think it’s a great place to start.

  219. says

    Crip Dyke, I get why ‘androgynous’ and ‘intersex’ get stuck in the middle of these types of illustrations (I’m not terribly thrilled with ‘bisexual’ being stuck in the middle, either), and no, it’s not accurate, but to make it easy for dummies (read: me), are there specific changes you could make the genderbread person, or would it be necessary to scrap it altogether and go with a completely different illustration?

  220. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says

    Crip Dyke,

    Thanks for answering (thanks to Caine too)! Right now I’m just about ready to fall asleep at the keyboard, but I’ll keep reading tomorrow.
    I really don’t feel knowledgeable enough to discuss this without messing up, so my strategy is to mostly shut up and read, with an occasional question/observation thrown in. I appreciate your explanations and effort in this as well as the previous conversation about triggers.

  221. says

    Frinst., if instead of having just a horizontal line going from woman to man, would a horizontal line with spaced vertical lines, illustrating a sliding scale be better, or as inaccurate?

  222. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Everything is an oversimplification. If you are aware of the limits and can point them out clearly and briefly, then it’s probably okay.

    I agree with you that there are reasons that they get stuck in the middle, and I have often used these in the past with reservation and explanation rather than throwing them completely out.

    But when I have control over the image, such as at a white board (I’m not good at computer graphic design) I tend to use triangles, balanced on a point but fully contained within a shaded circle. When one of the options is associated with a feminine gender or female body-aspect, it goes on the bottom point (but still within the shaded circle!) and masculine/male stuff goes on the upper right point. This mirrors the shorthand circle-symbols with + on botton and –> pointing up right. An example that belongs to neither of the categories goes on the up-left corner.

    I say that someone can be anywhere within the shading, but that we pay most social attention to the corners, so they are worth pointing out if for no other reason than to emphasize how little area the points encompass.

    Discussing different gender identities, for example, I ask, “Do you identify as a man in opposition to being a woman, in relation to being a woman, in relation to being FtM genderqueer, or in relation to being FtM genderqueer?” After getting responses, I point out, “These are all different ways of identifying yourself that are close enough to one corner that we have no problem saying that they all belong to the category ‘man’, but nonetheless they are different ways of identifying oneself. Likewise, are you straight because the thought of fucking another woman is disgusting to you, or are you straight because penises are absolutely delightful to kiss? These are different ways of identifying yourself to yourself, and thus different sexual orientation identities…but they are in the pattern of color near to one point, so we simplify them as if they were all landing exactly on that same point though straight people experience straightness in very different ways.”

    This gets across the idea that it’s not that there are “simply men” and “simply women” and then those complicated trans* folk. [Or straight folk, gay folk, and fence sitters.]

    It is absolutely vital to do this in a way that doesn’t “other” the bi/pan/omnisexuals among us, the intersex folk & the trans folk. That it’s difficult to do and that in all the time – decades! – I’ve been doing this I’ve come across maybe 3 people besides me to do it well does not negate the importance of actually doing it.

  223. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @beatrice:
    I’m always trying to be helpful. Today I’m trying to be helpful to myself.

  224. says

    Crip Dyke:

    But when I have control over the image, such as at a white board (I’m not good at computer graphic design) I tend to use triangles, balanced on a point but fully contained within a shaded circle. When one of the options is associated with a feminine gender or female body-aspect, it goes on the bottom point (but still within the shaded circle!) and masculine/male stuff goes on the upper right point. This mirrors the shorthand circle-symbols with + on botton and –> pointing up right. An example that belongs to neither of the categories goes on the up-left corner.

    I say that someone can be anywhere within the shading, but that we pay most social attention to the corners, so they are worth pointing out if for no other reason than to emphasize how little area the points encompass.

    Okay, this makes much sense to me! Thank you.

    Likewise, are you straight because the thought of fucking another woman is disgusting to you, or are you straight because penises are absolutely delightful to kiss? These are different ways of identifying yourself to yourself, and thus different sexual orientation identities…but they are in the pattern of color near to one point, so we simplify them as if they were all landing exactly on that same point though straight people experience straightness in very different ways.”

    This is beautifully illustrated, and a great way to make a point and provide an explanation. Thank you again.

  225. The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical says

    Crip Dyke

    If you are a teacher and teach about this, I’d like to make a suggestion.

    Stop.

    I wanted to expand on this a little with an example that is tangentially related, but hopefully illustrates the point you’re making:

    When I was in college, the professor teaching the intro to sociology class had a section about gender. He wanted to lecture on trans* people, but lacked a personal understanding of the topic so he decided to bring in a guest lecturer. This guest lecturer was a trans woman and a friend of his. She had no education in gender studies. She had only the vague understanding of intersex issues that comes up when people are appropriating it, but decided to talk about it anyway along with Harry Benjamin Syndrome. She did her best and I think it was really hard for her. It was downright cruel to her to put her in that position IMO, but she also did a lot of damage. She confused some terms and reinforced a lot of cis-sexist ideas.

    In particular, she decided to talk about reading trans* people and how fun this was to use her “trans radar.” This is a really terrible idea to reinforce and was made all the worse by illustrating it in a literal 101 classroom. She picked me out of all the students there to run through a description of my features that looked “masculine” to her and how she could thus read me as being another trans woman. Nothing came of it and as a non-binary person who generally presents as androgynous I still have a lot of privilege for protection that a trans woman wouldn’t have in that situation, but it could have been far worse if she had picked someone vulnerable. At absolute best, she reinforced the idea that trans* people are visually identifiable and it’s acceptable to police other people’s appearances. At worst, I shudder to think of the harm that could have happened to a vulnerable student.

    Everybody fucks up. There are at least a dozen times in the past few days that Crip Dyke could have called me out, and may yet do so if this series of posts continues in here. Any random trans* or intersex person is most likely not going to be well-versed in ethics or gender theory or biology. They’ve been raised in the same cis-sexist society as everyone else. Professors will get it wrong, their friends they turn to for help will get it wrong. It takes a lot of careful research and input from knowledgeable people to teach it well.

    If it’s that hard to do it well with a trans woman as a guest lecturer on being trans*, imagine all the landmines of teaching about intersex people with nothing but non-intersex people speaking.

    I hope this example isn’t out of line here. It just often comes to mind when I think about all the ways shit can go wrong in a classroom.

  226. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Any random trans* or intersex person is most likely not going to be well-versed in ethics or gender theory or biology. They’ve been raised in the same cis-sexist society as everyone else. Professors will get it wrong, their friends they turn to for help will get it wrong. It takes a lot of careful research and input from knowledgeable people to teach it well.

    Yes!!!!

    There’s an article, well, a couple articles contained within a special issue, in the professional journal “Radical Teacher” that specifically talks about going “beyond the guest lecturer”.

    Hrmmmm, searching google…

    click, whirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr….

    Here it is.

    The articles that can be of most use belong to Erica Rand and Diana Courvant. But read the whole issue if you ever teach any trans* or intersex material.

  227. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Mellow Monkey

    If it’s that hard to do it well with a trans woman as a guest lecturer on being trans*, imagine all the landmines of teaching about intersex people with nothing but non-intersex people speaking.

    I interrupted my reading of your comment to quote that one section. When I got to the end, I wanted to say this as well:

    I didn’t see anything problematic with what you wrote. In particular, when you brought up intersex folk, you made it clear that you were doing so out of a concern for intersex folk and in the process of advocating things that you believe would prevent damage to intersex folk.

    This is different from Carlie’s usage, and is a model of when and how to bring intersex issues up among a group of people who aren’t your close friends.

  228. says

    Crip Dyke

    Do you identify as a man in opposition to being a woman, in relation to being a woman, in relation to being FtM genderqueer, or in relation to being FtM genderqueer?”

    It’s a minor thing, but did you mean for the last two to be the same? I can think of a couple things that might have been intended to be different, but I would prefer to ask for clarification rather than assume. On an unrelated note, L has lost your email, but has some questions about your preferences for the project you commissioned from him.

  229. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Dalillama:

    No. I did not.

    Please consider the corrected version to read:

    Do you identify as a man in opposition to being a woman, in relation to being a woman, in relation to being FtM genderqueer, or in relation to being MtF genderqueer?”

  230. w00dview says

    Omnicrom@50:

    When we say that 99.9% of all lifeforms on the Earth no longer exist it is because many of them became new species over the millions of years. 99.9% of all species did not go extinct by dying out, therefore your counterpart’s anti-thought experiment is dead on its face.

    This is a very important point to make because I have found that anti-environmentalists will use “99.9% of the Earth’s species have become extinct ” as an excuse to not protect biodiversity because hey, they are probably going to go extinct anyway so why bother with delaying the inevitable. It is one of the most insidious uses of the natural fallacy I have come across.

    Rutee Katreya@90:

    asinine, hateful, and more evidence that for all their squalling on keeping the state out of things, conservatives want it far more ingratiated into people’s personal life than socialists such as myself* do.

    One of the things I have learn about conservatism is that it is super dandy with big government. Conservatives mainly use government as a tool to keep those uppity non whites, women and homo and transsexuals in their place. It is only when government is suggested to restrict the damage of the powerful or level the playing field that they suddenly advocate for small government. So that is why conservatives are a-ok with squashing voting rights for minorities but will scream like babies about OMGTYRANNY!! when the EPA suggest new lightbulb efficiency standards. This is probably not news to anyone here but when I looked at it this way, their hypocrisy on big goverment made a hell of a lot more sense to me.

    Thumper@124:

    That list was hilarious. I think it would be hilarious if someone copy and pasted that list onto WND or the Blaze just to see the commenters freaking out about what teh libruls want to do to Murka!

    Anne Jones:

    You are a scary, scary person. I hope you keep as far away from political office as possible.

  232. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Chigau, #190

    I haven’t seen it. I don’t think. at least I haven’t seen it recently. I’ll try to remember to get around to watching it, but no promises. How long is it?

  233. chigau (違う) says

    Crip Dyke #232
    It’s about 45 minutes long.
    But it took me longer than that because I needed to pause it occasionally.

  234. says

    #167, Caine, Fleur du mal:

    Xanthe! So happy to see you.

    Caine, thanks so much for the welcome. I really wish I’d had the spoons for doing some more of the lifting around here, recently; it’s plainly obvious how much of a toll recent happenings have taken.

    #193, DLC:

    Thumper; Immorally Inferior Sergeant Major in the Grand Gynarchy Mangina Corps (GGMC) :(waaaayy back at 124)

    6. Sex-Reassignment- Compulsory sex reassignment for everyone! Everyone should experience life from an alternative viewpoint, to which end they will spend their teenage years as the opposite sex to that which they are born as, before being switched back when they hit 20.

    But what if, after reaching 20, they do not wish to flip back to the original gender ?

    Crip Dyke had already done a good job deconstructing the obvious gender binary favouritism of this whole scenario of Thumper’s, but DLC, you might have at least considered that for some people in that situation, the opportunity not to be required to change back would be highly desirable. And what would be wrong with making that decision? Your response:

    Sorry. not going to be trolled. Thanks.

    … is dismissive and disappointing. Other people in this thread without personal experience have been prepared to apologise when they mis-stepped and listen and learn, why not join that bandwagon. It’s the right one to be on.

  235. says

    Xanthe:

    I really wish I’d had the spoons for doing some more of the lifting around here, recently; it’s plainly obvious how much of a toll recent happenings have taken.

    It would have been great to have you there, but please don’t feel bad about that. We all took breaks, and got through. It does look like the Richard Cohen thread my blow up, hard to say right now. I wish I could smack that ass on the head with a drawer full of spoons.

    Well, at least I know who Miley Cyrus is now.

  236. procrastinatorordinaire says

    w00dview@230

    Omnicrom@50:

    When we say that 99.9% of all lifeforms on the Earth no longer exist it is because many of them became new species over the millions of years. 99.9% of all species did not go extinct by dying out, therefore your counterpart’s anti-thought experiment is dead on its face.

    This is a very important point to make because I have found that anti-environmentalists will use “99.9% of the Earth’s species have become extinct ” as an excuse to not protect biodiversity because hey, they are probably going to go extinct anyway so why bother with delaying the inevitable. It is one of the most insidious uses of the natural fallacy I have come across.

    It would be an important point were it true, except that it is not. The vast majority of species do not evolve into other species.

  237. Thumper; Immorally Inferior Sergeant Major in the Grand Gynarchy Mangina Corps (GGMC) says

    @Crip Dyke #197

    I’m sorry, I didn’t even know intersex was a thing. I apologise for my ignorance; some googling has gone part-way to rectifying it. I’ll be more careful in future.

  239. Bicarbonate says

    Sometimes I wish that what banned people have written didn’t get erased because it’s very instructive to read what they have to say and then watch someone take it apart. When you read just the taking-apart part, you don’t get the full impact. I’m saying this in reference to the banning of Anne Jones, that sounds like a title of something, The Banning of Anne Jones.

  240. pHred says

    So the Richard Cohen thread just set me off and I do not want to derail so I will do this here …

    Well it wasn’t a real robbery. You didn’t get dragged into the bushes or beaten. I mean, really, you never even saw a gun! You must have wanted to be robbed, going around carrying money like that. It was your fault for using an ATM dressed like that in the first place!

    Arggh! Why do people think they are entitled to all of the details of a rape so that they can decide if it “counts” ???? ARHHGGHRH!

  241. says

    Bicarbonate, if you click on the archives going several months back, and going through the various Tdome incarnations, you’ll find enough annejones and subsequent take downs to keep you busy for a long while.

  242. says

    pHred:

    Arggh! Why do people think they are entitled to all of the details of a rape so that they can decide if it “counts” ???? ARHHGGHRH!

    Fuck if I know, but I am right there with you. Same on the whole “rape needs to be classified!” No, it fucking well does not! Rape is rape, it’s all wrong, it’s all bad. Jesus.

  243. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    google:

    annejones site:freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula

    5th result, from 17 January 2013 at 8:29 pm (UTC):

    Hello, I’m a Christian ID and Creationism advocate, and I’d like to take issue with the scientific method and the derision of Christian beliefs and creationism/ID as established fact.

    Go nuts, bicarbonate.

  244. says

    Do you identify as a man in opposition to being a woman, in relation to being a woman, in relation to being FtM genderqueer, or in relation to being MtF genderqueer?”

    I identify men, women, trans* people of all sorts and genderqueer people as possible expressions of the trait “member of Homo sapiens“. Obviously some varieties are more common, others less common, but they are no more opposites to each other than red roses are to white or yellow roses.

    +++
    TW: the recent discussions about the Stunned Silence thread and especially Ogvorbis’ comment.
    So, apparently we’re all pro-pedophile rape apologists.
    It’s amazing how the same people can firmly believe that 12 yo cannot consent freely to sex because duh, they’re lacking the mental capacities of adults, but at the same time believe that 12 yo can make the informed decision to rape somebody. But apparently they get to have it both ways.
    Apparently the children in tow of the WBC are just as morally responsible and reprehensible as Shirley Phelbs herself.

  245. says

    Giliell:

    It’s amazing how the same people can firmly believe that 12 yo cannot consent freely to sex because duh, they’re lacking the mental capacities of adults, but at the same time believe that 12 yo can make the informed decision to rape somebody.

    Yeah, I know, it’s very tough to let that shit slide, however, I do think immense stress plays a part, from being triggered. Bad situation all the way around. I have to say, what bothers me the most is that a person who was raped consciously decided to keep pushing, even after being informed they would cause serious harm. Still bothers me.

    All that said, none of us are saints and we all fuck up. That was a way bad fuck up.

  248. Bicarbonate says

    Caine and Crip Dyke,

    Thank you for the advice and link. I just assumed that banning erased everything the person had ever written anywhere on FtB. So, it only erases what they’ve written in the thread on which they were banned?

    Anyway, C.D., followed your link and reading Anne Jones intro to herself made my head hurt. I discovered that I don’t really want to read any more of her than I already have.

    When I read people here, I get images of the person. For instance, I imagine Thumper as a rabbit, duh. These images are mostly unconscious but sometimes I become aware of them. Often, I assign the faces of people I have known to them. For instance, Tony somehow got the face of someone I loved many years ago. But, for Anne Jones, there’s no image at all. Even if I try to imagine one, I can’t.

  249. says

    No, banning doesn’t delete comments. It just prevents them from making more comments.

    In some cases, I manually delete comments. If a banned poster sneaks back under a new pseudonym, I do not let them get away with that — we’ve got a couple of active, persistent trolls who have 30+ identities they use to try and make comments. You do not get rewarded for signing up for another email account with the ability to leave more droppings here.

  250. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @bicarbonate:

    reading Anne Jones intro to herself made my head hurt.

    Yeah. I know what you mean. On the other hand, I did learn something when annejones said:

    It is a myth that science and Christianity are at war, one owes its existence to the other.

    Then I finally got it!!!

    Christianity is a social psychology experiment by Geoffrey Miller!

  251. says

    Well, one thing can be said for annejones – even if she did try to sockpuppet, she’d never be able to hide who it actually was posting. She’s an incredibly long-winded one note person.

  253. Thumper; Immorally Inferior Sergeant Major in the Grand Gynarchy Mangina Corps (GGMC) says

    @Caine

    What kind of idiot to I have to be if even my apology is offensive? Gah. Thanks. More reading.

    Sorry again, Crip Dyke.

  254. Tony! The Immorally Inferior Queer Shoop! says

    Giliell @244:
    Would you happen to have a link to Ogvorbis’ comment?

  256. Thumper; Immorally Inferior Sergeant Major in the Grand Gynarchy Mangina Corps (GGMC) says

    @Bicarbonate

    I imagine Thumper as a rabbit, duh

    My work here is done *twirls ears dramatically*

    But, for Anne Jones, there’s no image at all.

    Probably for the best. For some reason, I imagine her to be a blonde lady with long hair in her mid-twenties. I have absolutely no idea why.

  258. Thumper; Immorally Inferior Sergeant Major in the Grand Gynarchy Mangina Corps (GGMC) says

    @Caine

    Huh. I wonder what it is about her that gives that impression?

    @everyone

    Does anyone els picture annejones like that?

  259. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Unfortunately, I imagine annejones as possessing a law degree, and being a skinny, leggy republican

  260. Nightjar says

    I don’t have a mental image of annejones. Or anyone else, actually. You all are just nyms and names to me, except for those who have posted photos of themselves. And even then I tend to forget.

  262. says

    Nightjar:

    I don’t have a mental image of annejones. Or anyone else, actually. You all are just nyms and names to me, except for those who have posted photos of themselves. And even then I tend to forget.

    In my head, you are very beautiful, sun washed and have deep, coppery hair, a little past shoulder length, mostly straight, with a wave at the ends.

  263. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Probably for the best. For some reason, I imagine her to be a blonde lady with long hair in her mid-twenties. I have absolutely no idea why.

    I would add obviously bleached blond with obvious contact lenses, and make-up worthy of Tammy-Faye Bakker. Nothing honest about the face.

  264. says

    Nerd:

    I would add obviously bleached blond with obvious contact lenses, and make-up worthy of Tammy-Faye Bakker.

    I don’t see that at all. Annejones isn’t out to commit fraud, she’s a believer. She thinks her faith and ideas are righteous, so I tend to see her sans make-up, or very little.

    At any rate, this is making me a bit uncomfortable now, so I’m gonna stop.

  265. Thumper; Immorally Inferior Sergeant Major in the Grand Gynarchy Mangina Corps (GGMC) says

    @Caine

    That’s it! In my head she looks almost exactly like Anne Coulter in jeans and a hoody!

    Ah, thanks Caine :)

    @ Nightjar

    I have a weird mix. I have an image I associate with most people, but it’s not always an image of what they might look like. When I think of Caine, for example, I see her avatar (I still can’t figure out what it is, btw; probably because it’s a thumbnail). When I think of you, Nightjar, I see a thrush (because I don’t know what a nightjar looks like). I see Nerd as a redheaded couple (probably because I’m confused as to what Nerd’s gender might be), the man with short red hair and glasses, sat at the computer, and the woman with long red hair stood behind him with her hand on the back of the chair, reading the screen over his shoulder.

    My brain is weird sometimes.

  268. The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical says

    I represent people online with emotions and sensory associations. Annejones is a particularly mean-spirited shade of green on par with split pea soup.

    …my brain is really weird.

    (Caine is a royal purple cotton silk blend.)

  269. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says

    At any rate, this is making me a bit uncomfortable now, so I’m gonna stop.

    Because the conversation has waded into the territory of stereotypes about dumb blondes with their stupid fake make-up and stupid opinions?
    Yeah.

  270. Thumper; Immorally Inferior Sergeant Major in the Grand Gynarchy Mangina Corps (GGMC) says

    @Caine

    Oh, that’s fucking cool :) I really like that.

    Also, I oversimplified slightly. It’s not always your avatar, sometimes I see you as a woman in her early thirties, with black hair in a bun, wearing a black top hat with a red hat band (I think you mentioned you had one once? presumably that’s where that comes from).

    @TMM

    Aw, I like pea soup :(

    Out of curiosity, what colour am I?

  272. Walton says

    [TW: anti-refugee rhetoric]

    Ugh. I’ve been saying for years that Pat Condell is a deeply racist and xenophobic person, whose hatred of Islam is a pretext for pushing a nasty anti-immigration agenda. I think this latest outburst proves my point.

  275. says

    MM:

    (Caine is a royal purple cotton silk blend.)

    Mmmmmmmmmm. All over mmmmmmmmmmm. To me, you’re yellow, sun yellow, with shards of crisp ice blue, almost invisible, glints in the sun.

    Beatrice:

    Because the conversation has waded into the territory of stereotypes about dumb blondes with their stupid fake make-up and stupid opinions?

    Oh yes. My association of Ann Coulter to annejones had nothing to do with a dumb blonde stereotype at all. Ann Coulter is reprehensible on many fronts, however, she is not remotely stupid.

    By the way, you’re watered silk, dappled cool greys and azure blues, like water on a partially cloudy day.

  277. The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical says

    Oops, I cut myself off. Thumper: you are a heather grey wool. Itchy, but warm.

    And Beatrice is liquid mercury with many reflections of different colors, though the majority of them lean toward shades of violet.

  280. Nightjar says

    Caine,

    In my head, you are very beautiful, sun washed and have deep, coppery hair, a little past shoulder length, mostly straight, with a wave at the ends.

    Oh. My hair is like that, a little past shoulder length and waved at the ends, but it is deep, dark brown.

    I find it fascinating that your brain does this, and with such detail. I wonder if you being an artist has anything to do with it.

    Thumper,

    When I think of you, Nightjar, I see a thrush (because I don’t know what a nightjar looks like).

    Ha! Nightjars don’t look like thrushes at all, but I like thrushes too, so that’s fine by me. :)

  282. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says

    I really like Mellow Monkey and Caine’s way of seeing us.

    Not just because Caine’s description is so nice :)
    (and sounds a lot like the color of my eyes)

  285. says

    Nightjar:

    I find it fascinating that your brain does this, and with such detail. I wonder if you being an artist has anything to do with it.

    As Janine tells me, my brain works in a very odd way. Words turn into pictures.

    Beatrice:

    (and sounds a lot like the color of my eyes)

    Ooooh, pretty. Storm eyes.

  287. says

    PZ:

    AnneJones also has some comments piled up in the spam queue in which she protests that this is “so unfair.”

    Oh man. What about what she did to us? For months on end no less, and I never did get an answer from her as to what she meant when she said she was not super-duper mean to gay people.

  289. pHred says

    @ Caine – oh man I missed that. Your comment 266 acutally made me laugh. I suppose I should have expected it. I will have to visit the thread when I get a chance. I am supposed to be working on my hydro lectures.

  290. The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical says

    Caine

    Words turn into pictures.

    Does it work as the reverse for you as well, by any chance? When I’m drawing or sculpting, my creation gets a full blown personality in my head. It’s not a narrative explaining what’s happening in the image/object; it’s just the same sort of sense of identity I get from intensely interacting with a person. The image or object doesn’t even have to look like a living thing for it to kick in, because I go to the same headspace when it’s abstract. It’s very weird when I gift one of my creations, as if I’m giving up a relationship.

  291. Thumper; Immorally Inferior Sergeant Major in the Grand Gynarchy Mangina Corps (GGMC) says

    @TMM

    you are a heather grey wool. Itchy, but warm.

    Having thought about my record here, I think that’s fair and rather accurate :)

    It’s interesting that you see a colour and a texture.

    @Caine

    Ann Coulter is reprehensible on many fronts, however, she is not remotely stupid.

    If anything, her intelligence makes her more reprehensible. Hers is a calculated malice.

    @Nightjar

    Lol some googling has revealed that they really don’t. This one is very pretty :)

    As long as you aren’t offended by being thought of as a thrush, I’m happy :)

    @ PZ

    Of course she does. It’s not bigotry, it’s her opinion *vomit* and freeze peach means she totally has the right to inundate the rest of us with her bigoted opinionated spewings.

  292. says

    Caine

    Ann Coulter is reprehensible on many fronts, however, she is not remotely stupid.

    She does, however, suffer from a common problem among conservative commentators, which is that her rigid ideological blinders often lead her to saying very, very stupid things.

  293. says

    MM:

    Does it work as the reverse for you as well, by any chance? When I’m drawing or sculpting, my creation gets a full blown personality in my head. It’s not a narrative explaining what’s happening in the image/object; it’s just the same sort of sense of identity I get from intensely interacting with a person. The image or object doesn’t even have to look like a living thing for it to kick in, because I go to the same headspace when it’s abstract. It’s very weird when I gift one of my creations, as if I’m giving up a relationship.

    Yes, it does. Works much like that, actually. In the process of creating a piece, as it takes shape, it starts speaking to me, self-describing, as it were. By the end, there’s a full sense of identity, and it is often painful to let go of them. I don’t like the idea of someone else ‘owning’ them, because I don’t know if they will develop a relationship with one of my pieces. It’s as though they all start as a piece of me, then grow apart and distinct, into their own. Works whether it looks organic or inorganic, concrete or abstract.

  295. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    She does, however, suffer from a common problem among conservative commentators, which is that her rigid ideological blinders often lead her to saying very, very stupid things.

    Or she knows exactly what she is doing pandering to the stupid wing of the republicans (big wing), for both notoriety, book/speaking/tv sales and “power” allowing her to push her whole agenda.

  297. Thumper; Immorally Inferior Sergeant Major in the Grand Gynarchy Mangina Corps (GGMC) says

    @MM and caine

    I decided recently that I need to get back into art (I haven’t done anything for about three years now), and so I sat down and did something in pencil… I find myself as intensely protective of it as I always used to be of my stuff. At the end of the day it’s just a drawing, but I feel like I want to preserve it forever. I think it’s because of the amount of work that goes into it, coupled with a sense of amazement that I’m actually quite good at art. I still can’t get past that. Other people look and coo, but I can only see the flaws and the places I could have done it better :)

  298. says

    Rev. BDC

    allowing her to push her whole agenda.

    The point I was getting at is that many elements of that agenda are deeply stupid, in that they neither accomplish their stated nor apparent unstated purposes, and often actively impede other elements of the same agenda.

  299. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    She does, however, suffer from a common problem among conservative commentators, which is that her rigid ideological blinders often lead her to saying very, very stupid things.

    Even though I say things similar to this sometimes, it really is important to note that something can be judged “stupid” to say only in a certain context that takes into account the motivation for saying it.

    I think some of the things that I’ve said recently were quite ‘smart’ (to pick an antonym of stupid)…but only in the context of TD in response to current events.

    if I took “famous H’s” for 800 and was given the clue, “The poet who gave us the original story of the rock and the hard place,” talking about whether or not “safe space” can ever exist for all survivors would be a monumentally stupid response…assuming I wanted the 800 bucks.

    Coulter wants things. The things she says get her what she wants.

    Dalillama, I believe your statement is an overzealous application of Hanlon’s Razor.

    Crip Dyke’s law of accountability:

    When determining whether apparent malice is adequately explained by stupidity, the goals of the actor must be considered, and evidence of those goals can certainly include repeated action generating similar consequences, which can thus be presumed desired by the actor.

  300. Goodbye Enemy Janine says

    A few years ago, when I was commenting more and this blog was a bit more free wheeling, I would havve been all over annejones just as I was Barb, Silver Goat and other advocates of religious suppression.

    As it stands, that simple fact that she answered my question; would she kick her child of her mouse if the child was gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered with a “yes” told me all I needed to know about her. Annejones is a horrid human. And her type are responsible for the death by neglect of many LGBT children.

    Yes. I do think annejones has blood on her hands. And she is proud of it.

  301. says

    Crip Dyke
    I suppose it depends on whether we assume that her only goal is to ensure that she has a comfortable lifestyle and ego-stroking fans, in which case she appears to be only malevolent, but not stupid, inasmuch as she has chosen a particularly vile method of accomplishing that goal when she could have probably done a series of ‘self-help’ books or similar, and achieved the same goal with a great deal less collateral harm. If, however, you take her blatant advocacy of fascism and strong efforts to push the Overton window in that direction as an indication of sincere belief, it is reasonable to classify her behaviour as self-defeating, and therefore stupid, as well as malevolent. This is because her vile screeds tend to alienate rather than convince those who are not already true believers, while fascism itself is intrinsically prone to corruption, overreach, and concommitant inability to build foundations which can sustain their excesses. If Ann Coulter got her way tomorrow, given how badly America’s infrastructure has already corroded and how militarily overextended we already are (fascism has gotten a pretty decent foothold again these last 30 years or so), I wouldn’t give more than 15-20 years at the outside before we’d be looking at total, catastrophic collapse, and Ann Coulter, now 51, has a pretty good chance of still being around to reap the metaphorical whirlwind.

    I would also not that my premise here can be shortened to ‘Malice as a cornerstone of belief leads almost inevitably to certain classes of ultimately self-defeating behaviours’; I don’t consider the resultant stupidity to be any less culpable, though.

  302. says

    Janine:

    Yes. I do think annejones has blood on her hands. And she is proud of it.

    I agree. While we all had a good laugh over the whole “not super-duper mean to gay people” statement, I really did want an answer to that, because in that post, it read to me as if she participated in some form of harassment a/o bullying of GLBT people in school, perhaps not as aggressively as others (maybe), but a full participant.

    It doesn’t take very much to tip many young GLBT persons into despair, and onto suicide.

  303. says

    Caine

    Thumper, I think I may have subconsciously connected her rhetoric to Ann Coulter, so worked off that image, but younger.

    Funny, I have her just like Coulter

    PZ

    AnneJones also has some comments piled up in the spam queue in which she protests that this is “so unfair.”

    So much for property rights. Refusing PoC seating? OK! Banning gay people from publicly saying that they’re normal human beings? Yes, please!!!
    Being banned from commenting on a blog?
    I want me Freeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzeeee Peeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaachhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Jacob Schmidt
    I want to make sure most emphatically that this was NOT Elsye.

  304. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    The point I was getting at is that many elements of that agenda are deeply stupid, in that they neither accomplish their stated nor apparent unstated purposes, and often actively impede other elements of the same agenda.

    And the point I’m trying and maybe failing at getting at is that they appear stupid to you and I and many others, but her base “fans” eat it up and it gives her more clout with them. And they are really the only ones she’s appealing to.

  305. Goodbye Enemy Janine says

    But Caine, those LGBT people started the bullying of christians like annejones by daring to let their sexuality and/or gender expression be known in public. She had to fight back. Because if all of those people were raised in proper christian families, they would have stayed cisgendered heterosexuals.

    (I do not care that annejones is unable to defend herself at this blog. She has her own long neglected site, the one where she never got around to answering Cubist’s responses.)

  306. says

    Bottom line: It doesn’t matter whether Ann Coulter is a true believer or calculated mercenary, or some mix of the two. What she does sells, and she has the intelligence to make it pay. *shrug*

  307. says

    Rev BDC

    but her base “fans” eat it up and it gives her more clout with them. And they are really the only ones she’s appealing to.

    So you are assuming that she’s only in it for the money and acclaim, rather than because she is genuinely attempting to effect political change.

  308. says

    Janine:

    But Caine, those LGBT people started the bullying of christians like annejones by daring to let their sexuality and/or gender expression be known in public. She had to fight back. Because if all of those people were raised in proper christian families, they would have stayed cisgendered heterosexuals.

    Oh yes. As you know, that repugnant view is all too common. Poor persecuted and oppressed xians, damn reality! Annejones was of the particularly virulent type of xian, but shit, how many times have we seen the same sentiment from the rapturoids and others?

  309. Goodbye Enemy Janine says

    Not sure which I find worse; being a true believer of the most toxic and reactionary BS or not truly caring but willing to sell to that audience. Either way, the harm is done.

  313. says

    Well, I, for one, appreciate the opportunity to watch a conversation about her that never once mentions that “she’s probably a guy anyway”. It feels like years since I’ve seen that happen, and it’s a breath of unexpectedly fresh air in the topic of someone’s exceeding inhumanity.

  314. pHred says

    It doesn’t take much to tip teenagers into despair in general – hormones being what they are – anything that makes you different can make you that much more of a target.

    annejones strikes me as the sort of person who would make many peoples’ lives a misery – coming from the wrong neighborhood, wearing the wrong clothes, being GLBT, not being cis enough, not conforming to her version of normal in any way. I spent years being terrified of such people.

  315. Esteleth, statistically significant to p ≤ 0.001 says

    I’d ask what MM and Caine think I look like, but my face has been seen. :/

  316. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    So you are assuming that she’s only in it for the money and acclaim, rather than because she is genuinely attempting to effect political change.

    Who knows, but due to her serious self promotion I would be inclined to think that she’s more in it for the fame, power and money, but that she also isn’t opposed to the evil she spreads. And probably actually believes much of what she says. But if it came down to it she’d take the fame power money over the political change.

    And she’s damn good at what she does.

    We’re still talking about her after years of the same shtick

  318. Goodbye Enemy Janine says

    CaitieCat, that is because many people here worked hard to make sure that gendered insults are not use here. *nn C**lt*r is a horrid person because she espouses policies that would harm and kill people if implemented, not because some assholes think she is really a man (How fucking Ace Ventura of them.)

  321. dianne says

    Recreational Drugs- All recreational drugs are illegal. No such drugs shall be sold, or possessed, by any entity for any purpose.

    I know, I know, I’m totally late to the party, but…You do realize that nicotine, alcohol, caffeine, and theobromine are recreational drugs, right? Say goodbye to communion wine, legal smoking, coffee, chocolate, tea, etc. Sugar’s a little dubious too, at least concentrated sweets. Fruit’s one thing, but any refinement of sugar moves it from a food to a drug. So much for baked goods (including most bread-the yeast has to eat something), candy, granola bars, etc. Cheese isn’t looking the best either, though I suppose a case can still be made…

  322. says

    Speaking of RR:

    Saints, I don’t know what to say on this, only that we are going home very soon. It has reached the point where Hollywood is completely mocking and making fun of the rapture and the tribulation period. It was truly heart breaking to watch the trailers. –

    I couldn’t believe what I was watching and hearing. This is what’s come to and we must be aware of what’s taking place around us as the spirit of the antichrist is becoming more and more aggressive and accepted into society.

    It we are still here by June, which I hope we aren’t, it makes you wonder how many Christians may end up watching these blasphemous movies? I know I for one, won’t be watching them.

    I won’t post the trailers here for there is foul language and a lot of blasphemy.

    One movie coming out on June 7th is called “Rapturepalooza”

    The second movie coming out is on June 12th, is called “This is the End”

    So… I just watched both trailers (you were right, plenty of profanity). I don’t know whether to be heartbroken or disgusted. Or both. The Bible is a joke to these people. The horrors that are to come are a joke to these people. How do you make light of what will be the most horrific time man has ever faced? We can only pray that these people will have a change of heart before it is too late. It would be awesome if we were raptured before these films come out. This world is just spiraling out of control.

    Both movies look incredibly juvenile and stupid. It’s going to be sad for these people if they dont repent and believe the gospel.

    He who laughs first laughs last. Actually, there will be no laughs when they realize the lake of fire is real also.

    So who knows, maybe we go home in June!

    That oughta make ’em even happier.

    BTW, one of my sons mocks me as well. Right now we are not even speaking!

    I think it would serve these mockers to have it happen in the movie theatre as they are watching their mocking movie. It would be a sure way of letting them know it is real when they realize people they knew are missing!

    I know more than one mocker whom I would love to disappear right out of my clothing before their very eyes. Poof!

    That’s probably not a very godly attitude. Sometimes I don’t feel so grown-up and would love to rub someone’s nose in their own stinky mockery….

    Its sad that these movie producers found it necessary to create a genre of screwball comedy that does nothing but mock Christians, Jews and God. They’re going way out of their way to offend God and I suppose that means they do believe in God but they hate Him and His Son. That’s just beyond my understanding – that kind of arrogance and disrespect toward your own Creator who made the mouth you’re blaspheming Him with. And mocking your only path to salvation is plain stupid.

    These movies are the work of Seth Rogan and friends who brought us that awful movie “Paul” about the wisecracking extraterrestrial who is suppose to be living proof that the Bible is false.

    A LOT of blasphemy?! For crying out loud…that’s more than a lot.

    What IS more than a lot?

    Shooting a giant laser cannon from the antichrist’s backyard and killing Jesus Christ? That is just beyond…it’s just…

    I have no words. Both movies are horrifying.

    Did you guys know there’s a big budget Hollywood remake of “Left Behind” coming out next year? I’ve read that Nicolas Cage will play Raford Steel … not sure if the other parts have been cast yet.

    I don’t hold much hope this movie will remain true to biblical prophecy or contain the gospel message — it wouldn’t succeed with today’s audience. Christians aren’t enough to make a movie financially successful.

    I have a feeling the film will concentrate on the suspense surrounding the disappearances of millions while leaving the cause open to speculation.

    btw, as a HPN http://www.hollywoodprayernetwork.org supporter (and Omaha’s HPN chapter director)

    here’s the list of both films (pray for each of those mentioned. many of whom are agnostics)

    There’s eight pages of this stuff.

  323. says

    CaitieCat

    I’d ask what people think I look like, but that’s one of those questions that transition has taught me never to ask, so I’m not. :)

    You’re a slender black cat, with white socks and a white star on her forehead going down to the nose.
    My brain works a lot with words, so if you have “cat” in your name, cat appears in my brain. Unless your Avatar shows someting else, so M.M. is a butterfly, not a monkey….

  324. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    But Caine, those LGBT people started the bullying of christians like annejones by daring to let their sexuality and/or gender expression be known in public.

    The right wing would like to thank you for communicating that there is such a thing as non-public gender expression. Annejones would love everyone to believe that the people of which she approves aren’t expressing gender – only those freaks do – so that rights to gender expression can be characterized by Tom Delay, John Boehner, and others as “special rights”. Your approval of their special rights rhetoric will be a treasured and buoying event for theocrats in these difficult, god-hating times.

  325. Vicki says

    “Any entity for any purpose.” In other words, doctors are completely forbidden to ever prescribe the most useful pain medicines, even for use in the hospital. (A doctor, hospital, or pharmacy is an “entity,” after all.)

    Taken literally, this also means that the police cannot learn what marijuana smells like, because in order to do so they and/or the police department would have to possess marijuana, for a purpose. The evidentiary consequences are either amusing or horrifying: any drugs seized by the police would have to be destroyed as soon as a test came back saying “yes, this contains an illegal drug.” Possibly in mid-test: the lab technician and police department are also entities, and determining the concentration of narcotics in a sample is a purpose, as is determining which illegal drug you have seized. I suppose that’s one way to avoid ever finding out that police labs are committing fraud.

  326. says

    Caine, that’s hilaritragic. I almost wish they would be right, and they could all get to go spend eternity playing harp with Baby Jeebus, and the rest of us can get on with building a just and judicious world.

    I’d say our hopes link up exactly, except that what I’d call just, they’d call demonic, but tomato, tomahto. Bring on the Rapture!

  327. dianne says

    Vicki, good points! Sadly, annejones’ proposals are only slightly sillier than the actual drug policy of the US…

  328. Goodbye Enemy Janine says

    I view any upcoming Rapture to be like the expelling of middle manage types from The Hitchhikers Trilogy.

  329. says

    Esteleth:

    I’d ask what MM and Caine think I look like, but my face has been seen. :/

    I haven’t seen your face. If it was a hangout or something like that, I don’t watch those because of my ‘net access restrictions.

    I get a strawberry picture of you. I know, I know…um, pale white, flashes of red, delicate scent, earthy and blended, grasses, wild blossoms, fresh garden soil…wild.

    Caitie Cat:

    I’d ask what people think I look like, but that’s one of those questions that transition has taught me never to ask, so I’m not. :)

    You’re warm. Harvest moon orange, chenille, textured with wonder and stories, comforting, scent of spice and chocolate.

    Oh, and I don’t know why, scents just kicked in, they are pouring in for everyone.

  330. Portia says

    I was going to suggest earlier that the reason she was perceived as a blonde skinny woman is that Ann Coulter was seeping into the picture for people.

    —

    Jesus Fucking Christ, I am thinking about deleting all my facebook friends and letting people add me back if they want to. Because today, we have

    TW rape, fatphobia

    ” Hmmm…I don’t think it is just about good or bad, I think it is about control. Sex is good, but loss of control is rape and is bad. Food is good, but loss of control leads to starvation or obesity, bad. In all cases, children have limited control and adults SHOULD be advocating for them, not taking advantage of them.”

    “The long-term effects are often the most agonizing. Like with rape or trauma, obesity can affect/destroy someone across their entire life.”

    So, feeding kids fast food = letting priests rape them. In terms of negative effects. I want to scream and throw shit. It’s offensive on so many levels, for one, lots of fat people are perfectly happy being fat, the bad effects are mainly from a fatphobic society. And seriously?! Rape is on par with eating hamburgers? Oh, and don’t worry, I didn’t miss the anti-asexual sentiment that “Sex is [universally] good.”

    end rant.

  331. Portia says

    Woops almost forgot about the horrible classism in the facebook discussion…feeding your kids what you can afford is equivalent to horrific violence against them.

    This is more than a Bigotry Hat-trick, it’s like a Bigotry Royal Flush.

  332. says

    Crip Dyke:

    Annejones would love everyone to believe that the people of which she approves aren’t expressing gender – only those freaks do

    Also, annejones is the arbiter of sex and gender, after all, she’d consider me a man because I deliberately set out to destroy the essence of my femaleness by making absolutely sure my uterus was happily non-functional.

  333. says

    CaitieCat:

    Caine, that’s hilaritragic. I almost wish they would be right, and they could all get to go spend eternity playing harp with Baby Jeebus

    Oh years ago, they did *epic* threads on ‘what will heaven be like’, ‘what will you do in heaven?’ and ‘what will your job be in heaven?’ Oh, those were effing priceless. It’s Disneyland! Seriously, that’s exactly what it came down to, with everyone getting their fondest wishes granted, like having a pool with their very own dolphin, having a horse farm with their very own horsies, yada, yada, yada.

  335. cicely says

    But, for Anne Jones, there’s no image at all.

    I “see” annejones with Anita Bryant’s face.
    –

    Annejones is a particularly mean-spirited shade of green on par with split pea soup.

    (My bolding)
    Entirely reasonable.
    I shall therefore endeavor, in the future, to envision annejones as a bowl of split pea soup of especially livid hue.
    (If, for any reason, the future requires that I envision her at all.)
    *gesture of aversion*
    –

    To me, you’re yellow, sun yellow, with shards of crisp ice blue, almost invisible, glints in the sun.

    Call her Yellow Mellow?
    :D
    –

  338. says

    Goodbye Enemy Janine #300

    As it stands, that simple fact that she answered my question; would she kick her child of her mouse if the child was gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered with a “yes” told me all I needed to know about her.

    As a certified Terrible Typist, I just couldn’t let that slip by unremarked. Kick her child of her mouse? WHAT A MONSTER!

  339. The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical says

    Esteleth, I haven’t seen your face. If it was in a video, I don’t usually watch those because of my difficulties with processing speech. And in my mind, you’re cool, drizzling molasses. All dark and shiny and slowly sauntering along.

    CaitieCat, you are warm orange fur to me, sparkling in the sunshine. It’s a very cheery, inviting color.

    cicely

    Call herxir Yellow Mellow?

    That works. :)

  340. Goodbye Enemy Janine says

    Yikes! That is one of my worst typos! And, sadly, I make as lot of them.

    (I wish I could afford an editor.)

  341. says

    Cicely:

    Okay, I’m curious, Caine; how do I look in your mind?

    Oh, you’re ocean. Colours of molten glass and light, sussuration, murmurs, hidden power, salt, sea spray, wind. Incredibly beautiful.

  343. chigau (違う) says

    This is getting awfully fuzzybunny for the Tdome.
    Where’s the vitriol?
    Where’s the naughty language?
    Won’t you think of our reputation?

  344. cicely says

    Call herxir Yellow Mellow?

    Oops! My bad.
    Sorry, Yellow Mellow Monkey. I am contrite.
    Had I the knees for it, I would grovel at your feet for pardon.
     
    Wait. These are the Intarweebs! In (cyber)Space, no-one can hearsee you(r) screamknees!
    *grovelling for pardon at (Y)MM‘s feet*
    –
    Caine:
    *jaw-dropped&speechless*
    –

  345. says

    I cannot deny wondering what I could have been, what I could have done, what I could have made, if I had the luxury to spend my life focusing on my place in the weaving instead of unknotting my twisted thread.

    Retracing the steps. Thank you Caine, for linking to that previous discussion. Thank you Gen, Uppity Ingrate and Ilk, for quoting that. And most importantly, thank you onion girl, OM, for writing that.

  348. Goodbye Enemy Janine says

    Where’s the vitriol?

    I said that annejones is proud of the blood on her hands.

  352. chigau (違う) says

    Am not! you you you small arboreal mammal native to the eastern Himalayas and southwestern China.

  354. says

    Rev. BDC:

    I’m bacon colored.

    Mm mm. You’re fire, a swirl of all the colours of peppers, drift of woodsmoke, heat, with a layer of moisture beads with the slight malt of ale.

  357. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says

    You bunch of bureaucrats!

    There, that’s my worst.

  361. Jacob Schmidt says

    Fancy jelly beans are the worst. They all taste bad, but they’re 40 bajillion times more expensive then the 40c/lb jelly beans I get at a bulk store.

  362. says

    I once agreed with someone who had a mental picture of Caine that looked like Joni Mitchell (I think it was), but actually she looks like Emmylou Harris to me (sorry).

    Apropos of nothing at all, Walton looks like a young Walter Matthau (must be the Walt in both their names). On a similar note, Portia has a Natalie Portman-like quality and Esteleth that of a former cow-orker named Esther (who actually has a passing resemblance, going by that picture of you holding that molecule).

  364. says

    And Janine looks like a woman (I was tempted to say ‘girl’, probably because I thought of myself as a boy back then) I used to see in NYHC videos all the time (but now that I try to find an example, I can’t find her).

  367. says

    Janine:

    Cow-orker?

    Old usenet joke.

    SQB:

    I once agreed with someone who had a mental picture of Caine that looked like Joni Mitchell (I think it was), but actually she looks like Emmylou Harris to me (sorry).

    Wow. No need to be sorry. I’m not anywhere near as pretty as either of them, but I’m closer to Emmylou Harris in colouring. 3 little pages of Caine. That’s all the Caine there is.

  368. Anthony K says

    You bunch of bureaucrats!

    There, that’s my worst.

    I think I’m technically some kind of one of those. But I actually try my damnedest to be useful, so I sometimes get the feeling I’m doin’ it rong.

  369. chigau (カオス) says

    Caine
    I missed your note on the Time thread but I think things are going well.
    Sort of.
    I’m AFK until later tonight.

  371. Bicarbonate says

    Good evening people on Angry Dome.

    Tell me, I just got barraged by all kinds of sexist insults of the usual awful kind and I had nothing to throw back but insults that were just as stupid. These were men who pride themselves in openly hating women. Not people who would take offense if you suggest they’re “a bad ally”.

    What is a good game plan when you’re confronted with such stuff?

  372. Nightjar says

    Apologies, but I’m slowly working my way through the Anti-choicers thread now and I need to vent somewhere.

    Fucking forced-birthers. Isn’t it, uh, telling how they only enjoy entertaining hypotheticals that involve the violation of women‘s bodily autonomy, specifically? I mean, they can’t even fake it, for fuck’s sake. That thread, so far:

    Forced-birther: Say, how about *hypothetical featuring a woman*. Isn’t *woman using her bodily autonomy* totally evil in that case? Shouldn’t she go to prison?

    Pharyngula: Uh, no. How about *similar hypothetical that can be applied to cis men too*? We don’t force people to do that!

    Forced-birther: Oh, no, no, that’s totally disanalogous! Because Reasons! Consider instead this other situation where a woman is being all frivolous and stuff and doesn’t want to take responsibility! I mean, prison, right?

    Pharyngula: What about the man who was being all frivolous and stuff with her, do you also think his bodily autonomy should be violated if *hypothetical*?

    Forced-birther: But the woman! She consented! There’s a woman involved, don’t you see? Why blame the man!? Also, consider this hypothetical where I want to force a woman with mastitis to breastfeed. Just because.

    …

    *rage*

  373. says

    Moin, moin … Ich bin Ein Hamburger!

    (As rusty as my German is, I feel that I am getting on rather well. Or maybe people are just very polite.)

    @ Caine

    I trust the incontinent ratlet is now behaving himself. Super-absorbent freaze-dried
    Scritches are being expedited.

  374. Bicarbonate says

    317 Dear CaitieCat,

    You said you don’t dare ask what people think you look like and then something about transitioning. I’m too new around here to know your story or in which direction you are transitioning but I see you as a tall woman, very thin blonde hair of the kind swimmers sometimes have, you know a tint of chlorine in it or something ? You look like my sister sort of, she’s a firefighter.

  375. says

    Thank you, Bicarbonate; that’s very kind. I’m actually just over 5’9″ now, and on my way down, having peaked at just short of 5’11”. My back problems are such that I’m expected to lose about half an inch per vertebra, give or take, so I’m looking forward to shopping on the petite rack for my old-lady clothes. ‘Course i’ll likely be shaped like a question mark by then.

    Transition was 20 years ago, actually 21 in a couple of months, so the Caitie you see is the only Caitie there is or will be. Huh. I guess that means in five years I’ll have been outwardly me for half my life.

  376. says

    Oh, and pretty much completely grey, shoulder-length very curly hair, and I’m solidly fat and quite okay with it. The nice thing about the grey is that I can thus make my hair very, very colourful. I have a couple of bottles of Special Effects Indigo right beside me, that my partner’s going to do for me on Saturday. It’s not quite my “natural purple”, as people called it when my hair was a rich royal purple for a good while, but it should be fun anyway. :)

    Pale as dead fish bellies, can burn like bacon-wrapped magnesium on a cloudy day, blue-grey eyes.

    My cat-thing is panthers. I love me some panthers. My next tattoo I want to get is of a stalking panther, with the words (in kanji/kana) “tsuyoku naritai” (I want to become stronger) somewhere close by. Eventually I want to have a tat for each language I speak.

  377. Bicarbonate says

    Oh CaitieCat, I was sure you were about 25 ! Because your words flow. You make me feel old.

  379. says

    Theophontes:

    I trust the incontinent ratlet is now behaving himself. Super-absorbent freaze-dried
    Scritches are being expedited.

    Theo is always well behaved. Sometimes a Rain Piss™ is necessary. Theo, Chester, and Vasco had great fun last night, knocking my easel over. No one was hurt, but I haven’t seen those boys run that fast since they were two months old! Hee.

  380. Lofty says

    Meow?
    I am definitely not my avatar but the cat of my avatar looks at me accusingly every morning before breakfast.
    Nnnnoooowwww!
    Purrrr.

  382. says

    Theophontes:

    Yay, rodents!

    Very much so. I imagine they were most proud, doing all that climbing, and scaling the very top of the easel. They are all large boys, and they surely didn’t anticipate tipping it. (It’s very old, and quite heavy.) It crashed into one of the studio doors with a tremendous noise, and off they scarpered like the Three Stooges.

    So. Effing. Cute.

  383. Esteleth, statistically significant to p ≤ 0.001 says

    I have been ruminating lately on privilege. This latest rumination was inspired by (of all things) cheese.

    My great-grandfather died when I was a very small child. I remember him only dimly.

    What I remember, specifically, was cheese.

    He loved extra-sharp Cheddar cheese that had been aged. It was sold in a black wax wrapper, and he fed me some. I promptly loved it too.

    I haven’t had that cheese in over twenty years, because I couldn’t ask for it in the store and never spotted it in the dairy case.

    I couldn’t ask for it because the only name I had for it was what I heard him call it. I do not know if that was actually the name it was sold under in those days or not (I would like to hope it was the former, if for no other reason than the idea of a family member casually inventing such a nickname is galling).

    I found it by chance yesterday. It has a bland, descriptive name. I bought some, and it is as delicious as I remember.

    But here’s the thing about privilege. When I think of the name that I heard as a child, it pains me because it is gross and inappropriate. But it doesn’t sting, like if I’d heard it used to describe myself or people like me.

    If that was in fact its official name (at some point, one hopes that it was no longer is official name in the late 1980s), then that’s just another chit of evidence indicating the appalling levels of casual, everyday racism that existed – still exist – in American society.

    If that wasn’t its official name, then that’s another white man born in the first decade of the twentieth century who had an issue seeing people darker than himself as fully human. And while that distresses me, I know that it shouldn’t. It shouldn’t surprise me. If anything should surprise me, it would be stories about how he wasn’t racist, wasn’t a product of his times.

    But my real privilege is that the closest brush I had this week with racism was in the dairy section of a supermarket, when I found what I’d heard described as “[racist slur] cheese.”

  384. Bicarbonate says

    Esteleth, thank you for this lovely rumination.

    But I don’t get it. What “race” could be associated with cheddar cheese? All I can think of is the English and the only racist slurs I know for them are from the French and weren’t the English supposed to be the top-top dominant group in the USA? Who else eats cheddar cheese in our imaginations but mice?

  385. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    There’s no way to explain this other than to post this e-mail entire, and I just want to post it here. It will be long. I hope lots of you read it.

    I’ve been pointing out the everyday language that denies the existence of trans people, or that in other ways marginalize us (e.g. gender expression is what trans people do instead of what all people do) in ways that support the politics of oppression.

    And in the middle of this, which I kind of imagined would last a week, though I wouldn’t rigorously look at every comment, just try to notice when I *feel* a problem (I don’t read these to find problems, and I probably miss some, but that’s okay. The exercise is to show how common it is to be harmed by the language of trans* oppression, even here on Pharyngula. So you can imagine how relentless it is in other contexts.

    Why, then, do I want to post my own e-mail? Because it’s a major piece of trans* oppression that just happened to happen this week. Consider it a datum you can use in your attempts to estimate the ubiquity of trans* hatred experienced by those who live in the progressive paradise of North America: Canada’s west coast.

    ===============
    An intro to the letter – what my partner knew before I sent it:

    I was asked to write a reflection on a law class. It’s a very feminist thing to do, but not a law school thing to do. The professor in question is a feminist activist of many years. Her current class is on a very particular topic related to the rape and murder of many – far too many – aboriginal women in Canada. Why is it in a law school? The class is focused on this delightful little fact that the police ignored nearly every single report of a missing aboriginal woman in the northern 85% of BC, and most of them in the Lower Mainland. Her course raises the questions: Is systematic refusal to investigate entirely credible reports of missing women and raped women a constitutional violation, specifically when that refusal exists for aboriginal women but not for other women. Is there a way to hold Canada accountable for these actions? Does such a way exist intraterritorially? Does such a way exist extraterritorially?

    I am very interested in this topic, but the rape threads have been triggering for me. In my reflection paper I was asked what I wanted out of the class. I admitted that being a rape survivor I found myself fearful of the prospect of talking about rape. I knew I could do it, but I knew I would have to protect myself. I further feared that the course would be especially bad if it invisibilized trans survivors.

    Mind you, I didn’t want the course to talk *explicitly* about trans survivors, and didn’t advocate that, and the reflection paper was supposedly in dialog with myself, not the teacher. We were not asked to give her feedback on what we wanted from her, and especially not asked what we would change about a course we had yet to take.

    I was talking about doing things like conflating sex and gender, or saying, “both men and women” to mean everyone. I was talking about the people in the course doing the same kinds of things I’ve called out on this thread. Not because the people in my class – or on this thread – are bad, but because we live in a society so relentlessly gender obsessed, that when we have a fucking picture on our ID, it’s not enough to identify us without some indication of sex.

    I said that **as a rape survivor** I was feeling triggered, and I would have a hard time **as a rape survivor** if we were talking about rape, thus rendering me vulnerable, and then on top of that someone spoke in ways that treated me as if I didn’t exist – or shouldn’t.

    She read the response paper and called me in for a meeting. She wanted to schedule it less than 24 hours later. I complied.

    This is what I wrote to my partner afterward.

    =============
    So I just finished my meeting w/ [Professor Redacted].

    Gods it was hellish.

    The non-hellish part, the part that was sweet?
    She wanted me to hear it from her that she was trial counsel to [Redacted Client] in [Redacted Case].

    She didn’t tell me any of her own ideas about the case, etc. She was afraid that I would freak out just that she was counsel. As if I’m not professional enough to treat opposing counsel as human. She didn’t say it right away, but she made sure that I knew that she got abuse from people who disliked her advocacy during the case.

    So she managed to communicate concern for me with concern that I not attack her. At least the two were separated in the conversation so that I got the unadulterated loving concern first before she started talking about being abused by the anti-[Redacted client] members of our community.

    At one point she actually said that she wanted me to know this about her **b/c** she had been abused by people.

    The most generous interpretation – and I’m certain it’s partly true, even significantly true, but 30% true or 99% true I have no idea – is that she saying, “I witnessed how vehement responses were, and I don’t believe that people would have responded that way unless they were really hurt, therefore I have good evidence that you being hurt is a possibility.”

    The least generous interpretation is, and again, I’m certain it’s true, but 1% of the total reason or 70% I don’t know, “I’m scared you’ll abuse me.”

    Very nice to express fear that someone will use language that denies that you exist and have that reader’s response be, “I’m scared you’ll abuse me.”

    To be honest, it went downhill from there. She acted confused about the point that invisibilizing is different than failing to discuss. My property law class didn’t discuss trans people. That doesn’t mean it rendered trans people invisible. In the same way that property law didn’t discuss Chinese repression in and of Tibet, but it didn’t render that oppression invisible. I don’t know why she’s so smart but can’t grok that.

    She used her confusion to bring up her concern that I was going to make the course all about me. This despite evidence that she had in hand before she read my note that I didn’t want to talk about my personal stuff in class. We literally had an exchange in which I was invited to talk about personal stuff in class, declined, then after class we talked and clarified that I was very interested in talking about the course material, but not interested in talking about my personal stuff.

    So what does she do? Treats me as if she has evidence that I’m going to derail a course about aboriginal women with my personal, non-aboriginal stuff.

    It’s one thing, when you have no evidence, to make a judgement call that’s wrong. It’s another thing to have your prejudice be so strong that in the face of directly contradictory evidence.

    I noted that she hadn’t brought up derailing as a concern with all the white folk in the course, just me. Her response was that she had my response paper which – in her mind – clearly threatened to make the course all about me.

    She also said and I fucking quote – “I don’t mean to put you on the spot.”

    Really?

    Really?

    You called the meeting, you picked the topics, you set the agenda, in your office – not neutral ground – expressly as professor-to-student, and you didn’t mean to put me on the spot?

    It happened by fucking accident? How the hell was I supposed to understand that?

    “Whoops! Didn’t mean to be having this conversation with you. These words accidentally came out of my mouth! I had no idea that there was a student-professor power dynamic at play! Who are you again? I wasn’t even sure with whom I was communicating. If you are on a spot of any kind, it is entirely the product of circumstances beyond my control or intention.”

    It was a lie. Worse it was an obvious lie. Everything about her actions was intentional – even deliberate. She thought about whether she would respond to my response paper, she thought about how, she thought about where, she thought about her responsbilities to other students (who would have their education derailed by the impulsive, uncontrollable tranny), she thought about phrasing.

    “I didn’t mean to…” almost ANYTHING would have been a lie.

    to her, it might – to give her the most generous interpretation – have been intended as a little white lie, a fiction designed to communicate that it was not her intent to hurt or harm me. Even then, she’s a fucking lawyer. She should know that we intend the predictable consequences of our actions. She intended to say things that -in her mind- were nearly certain to cause harm or offense. She said them.

    So what does “I didn’t mean to” really signal?

    It signals “Don’t fucking hold me accountable.”

    Sure. You’re the professor in this situation. I’m the student in this situation. We’re in your office and there is (as far as I know) no device recording this interaction, so you’re free to characterize your actions any way you like in front of anyone or any body you choose. But just make sure that you tell me explicitly that I’m the bad guy if I treat you as in any way responsible for your actions. Cause, no. You’re only a law professor and life is too difficult to navigate for people as marginalized as law professors to fear that someday they might actually have to be accountable for their own choices!

    And the very, very worst part? The moment she chose to deflect responsibility was early on and (at least explicitly) about something where she couldn’t be held accountable at all. “put me on the spot” is something evil these days?

    and, of course, after I tell her that it’s bullshit and that nothing about this situation is accidental, she concedes in a mealy-mouthed way and then falls silent, so it’s up to me to bring back a tone of exchange, openness, and conversation. So I remind her that despite the fact that her statement was a lie (in the actual meeting I was trying to make it as calm & productive as possible, so I think I called it wrong, but I might have used the word lie without remembering), there was no need to be accountable *merely for putting me on the spot*.

    I don’t know if she heard the implicit criticism in that or not, but it allowed the conversation to move forward that I conceded that the action for which she sought to avoid accountability wasn’t wrong, and thus even though she’s accountable for her actions, there was no need to take any accountability steps in the moment.

    And thank goodness. I wanted to hear everything she had to say.

    It doesn’t change anything about my decision to take the class. She’s a slippery person who engages in the banal evil of assuming the worst of the marginalized and then avoiding accountability for doing so. But she’s a knowledgeable lawyer teaching a valuable topic.

    But the cherry on all this? She called me in because I said that dealing with rape would be a difficult topic for me b/c I’m a survivor.

    Did she ask me one time about my support network? Did she **one time** even refer to me as a rape survivor?

    No. She managed the whole meeting saying that I had mentioned the course might be hard. She even mentioned that I mentioned I might find it hard if certain language was used (though she got the language disastrously wrong).

    She never once said that it would be hard for a rape survivor to be in the room discussing rape. She made only the most oblique references to taking care of myself, and every single time she did, she made sure that she said, “It’s hard for anyone”

    Translation: It’s hard whether you’re a rape survivor or not, so I don’t have to determine if you’re a rape survivor. I just wanted you to know that I’m not disbelieving you, but I’m not believing you either, and your oh-so-personal issues can stay personal. Because the rape of certain victims is important to discuss, but your thing, whatever it is, is so, so private.

    I really couldn’t believe that in the whole meeting she couldn’t once refer to me as a survivor. Not once.

    She kept referring to potential problems I might have “with her”. She never once said I might have problems “with her actions”. She really is incredibly deft at phrasing things so that all the problems are mine (What possible problem could I have “with her”? She’s a good person, right? And if she’s a good person, then certainly each and every action she ever undertakes is beyond reproach! Let’s not discuss actions. Let’s discuss good character!)

    Fuck.

    None of this changes my desire to take the class, but I’m wondering what to do about her. She’s acting like she’s making it easier to take the course, but she’s only making it harder.

    I’m still going to read everything and kick ass at the work of understanding anything she puts in front of us, but it certainly won’t be to impress someone who cares about some rape survivors but doesn’t give a shit about my rapes.

    Jeez. Okay. I have a meeting. I have to go. but that’s all from the [Redacted Professor] appointment. So now we know.

    I’m sure from her point of view all her most important goals were met, so at least I won’t have to go through another one.

    Love. & It’s great news that [Kid1] & [Kid2] are walking each other to class. […snip…]

    Oh, and one more thing: in a spirit of generosity, I offered to ask you what you know about on campus resources so that she could have a list to give students, generally, in sending us a general take-care-of-yourself message.

    So if you could compile a short list of where you go on campus when you feel like crap? That would be good for my fellow students and also my relationship with [Professor Redacted].

    Thank you.

  386. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    I know it’s a wall of text.

    Thank you to any who read it all. There’s something very important to me about making this type of crap visible, instead of always and only posting about rape & murder.

    I’ll never be murdered more than once. I haven’t been raped in years. If you think that extreme violence is what defines trans oppression, you’re wrong.

  388. says

    Esteleth
    It depends on which racist slur you mean; if it was one starting with C, then the answer is yes, it was (and apparently in places is) sold under that name

    bicarbonate
    It has to do with the color of the wax wrapper on the cheese…

  389. says

    Oh Crip Dyke, there’s too much suckitude in there to describe. I’m so sorry you were made to dance on a wire only to end up dangling from it.

    I don’t have any advice or suggestions, just all the support. And love.

  390. says

    Dalillama:

    if it was one starting with C, then the answer is yes, it was (and apparently in places is) sold under that name

    That was my thought, too. Ate it when I was a sprog.

  392. Bicarbonate says

    Hi Crip Dyke 386,

    I read it all. Sounds like she was doing a “power trip” on you (haven’t had that expression on my tongue or in my brain for nigh on 30 years). Slights and put-downs.

    She was obviously assuming all kinds of stuff, but I don’t know what those things were. You say she said she didn’t want you to make the class “all about you”. Is that something people think trans people will do?

    I reread your post again. So she said she was “concerned” that you would “freak out” and “abuse” her. Bullshit, right?

    And so you are left trying to figure out her motivations and meanings, 1% of this? or 70%? Or was it this, or that? And that takes a lot of vital energy and it beats you down.

    Keep us posted on how things develop.

  393. says

    Bicarbonate:

    Is that something people think trans people will do?

    I expect so. Seems to me the Prof spent a great deal of time othering and attempting to justify it a/o cover her arse.

  395. says

    Bicarbonate, yes. As in “oh, she’s a monster.” That’s a form of othering. It removes a person, distances them from being human or being what is perceived to be normal. What would not be othering would be to say “oh, she committed a monstrous act” because that admits that yes, human beings are capable of doing monstrous things.

    This is a nice summary: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Othering

  396. says

    To clarify, it seemed to me that the Prof wasn’t just othering Crip Dyke on being a trans*person grounds, but she was othering her as a person who had been raped, acting as though that meant there would be some sort of auto-hysteria, all consuming melodrama switch, which would flip on no matter what. Very demeaning.

  397. cicely says

    And that when the “auto-hysteria” switch is inevitably flipped, the most important thing would be that it wasn’t her (the Professor’s) fault.
     
    *hugs* and support, Crip Dyke.
    –

  398. Esteleth, statistically significant to p ≤ 0.001 says

    Caine:

    I get a strawberry picture of you. I know, I know…um, pale white, flashes of red, delicate scent, earthy and blended, grasses, wild blossoms, fresh garden soil…wild.

    MM:

    And in my mind, you’re cool, drizzling molasses. All dark and shiny and slowly sauntering along

    Well. I am a mix of German, Swedish, English, Scots, and Irish by ancestry. And my appearance is strongly that of the first three – which is to say that I’m blonde and blue eyed and have very pale skin (even by the standards of “pale”).

    My cooking apron is decorated with strawberries and cherries. And I love both kinds of fruit.

    And I love molasses, and molasses-flavored things.

  400. says

    Cicely:

    And that when the “auto-hysteria” switch is inevitably flipped, the most important thing would be that it wasn’t her (the Professor’s) fault.

    Yes. I’m still caught at just how deep of an insult it is, to presume that someone who has been raped would automatically make it all about them. That’s just one hell of an insult, on so many levels.

  402. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    to presume that someone who has been raped would automatically make it all about them. That’s just one hell of an insult, on so many levels.

    To be generous to her, I’m white in a course about women of color: there should definitely be concern about derailing – including white people making it all about themselves/white people.

    To be truly fair, we must note that she didn’t say it generally to all the people in the class, she said it to me & me alone.

    Okay, 6 o’clock class is starting, a little late, but starting. I may read during class if there are extended analysis of the syllabus…but I’m looking at the initial handouts & it looks like class one here is pretty heavy…looks like we’ll be reading cases in class since we didn’t have the materials in advance.

  406. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Apparently a short mid-class break.

    @Caine, 403:

    Of course, but you hadn’t mentioned white racism, and I think that plays an important role here – not at all an absolving role, but an important role in understanding what she meant by derail.

    I just wanted to make sure racism wasn’t neglected.

    @Bicarbonate, 404

    For these purposes, it doesn’t matter. If it was a white ally fearing racism, there is still no more reason to fear it from me than anyone else.

    If it was a person of color, there may be more reason to fear it – or more actual fear – but there is still no more reason to fear it from me.

    Plus, if it was a person of color and I said that, it would provide major help to identifying the professor, which I’m not interested in doing. If it was a white person and I said that, then refused to do so if something similar happened later in my law school career when it *did* involve a professor of color, it would help a little with identifying the white person and in a major way with identifying the later professor because the switch would be a tell.

    Since it doesn’t affect an analysis where the relevant comparison is me to other white students, not the professor to other professors, and since it would tend to aid in identification, and since it might tend to make it seem like the behavior is more right or more wrong given the race of the professor*, I will choose not to identify that information.

    *How understandable it is might change, sometimes even how subjectively hurtful it is might change, but how **wrong** it is doesn’t change.

  408. Vicki says

    Crip Dyke–

    *hugs* if you want them.

    Not only did she say it just to you, but she attacked you in response to a paper where you said you *weren’t* going to do the things she was allegedly worried about, and why.

    I would be astonished to hear that she had an equivalent conversation with every other white student in the class. But it should be obvious to her that you almost certainly aren’t the only rape survivor in the class, both on statistical grounds and because she has to be aware of the cultural pressures not to report, and not to talk about it.

  409. Jacob Schmidt says

    Esteleth

    Hmm. My partner’s step father refers to black licorice in the shape of people as “n***** babies.” She gets a little uncomfortable when I point out the racism in that.

    Crip Dyke

    I’m so sorry. Hugs and support are available, should you want them.

    Bicarbonate

    You say she said she didn’t want you to make the class “all about you”. Is that something people think trans people will do?

    There is a history of white people derailing discussions of PoC discrimination, so there’s that.

    Aside from that, I suspect that any sort of view that isn’t privileged seems disproportionately common to anyone that’s privileged, like a rough grain on an otherwise smooth surface. For example, people complain about how “gay pride” is too visible and “in your face”. But when you look at any other source of media and most PDAs, it’s all straight. We’re saturated in heterosexuality everywhere you look, but an annual parade of homosexuality is, somehow, just too much.

    Someone asking that a discussion surrounding rape use the correct language so that trans* people don’t get erased probably seems too “in your face” (or some other such nonsense) to someone else who is used to language and media that makes trans* people invisible.

  410. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says

    Anthony K,

    I think I’m technically some kind of one of those. But I actually try my damnedest to be useful, so I sometimes get the feeling I’m doin’ it rong.

    Considering my place of work and jobs I get saddled with, I think I’m technically some kind of those too, at least occasionally. How do you think I knew what the worst insult is? :)

  412. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says

    Oh, Crip Dyke, I’m sorry your professor acted like that. *hugs* if you want them

  413. chigau (カオス) says

    Well, I’m here but probably not for long.
    —
    Crip Dyke
    I read it all but I did not understand.
    (three reads now)
    I do not understand the prof’s interpretation of your paper.
    I do not understand why she would be so threatened by you.
    The reflections of your class-mates must have been … bland.
    Are you really the only rape-survivor?
    Are you really the only Person Of Unusual Sexuality?
    —-
    I’ll read it again in the morning.
    —
    I do offer *hugs*.

  415. says

    Crip Dyke
    *big hugs, support and fluffy bunnies*
    That was really a shitty thing of her to do.

    Caine
    Interestingly, your eyes are the same colour as Mr.’s. I alsways imagined them to be a glowing demonic red ;)

    re: Joanna Russ
    Sadly I couldn’t get into her writing style with novels. The Female Man is still sitting on my shelf after I read the first few chapters.

    Dreams
    So, what happens when forced birthers talk enough about making me a slave to the fetus?
    I dream about being pregnant, shortly before delivery. I can hardly remember when I last had a dream in which the bodily sensations were that intense. I could feel the fetus moving, the kicks just under the ribcage, I could feel that something was wrong and then it started to claw itself out through my belly, Alien-style when it must be years since I last saw the movie. I thought “I must call 112 (our 911) or I’m dead”, and so I did, and then I posted what was happening here and beatrice and rq managed to arrive even before the paramedics did.
    If you’re now asking about how you looked like: I don’t remember. Vision was not that clear.

    Rambling
    I don’t understand why many parents still think that giving their kid half a litre of soda for school is a good idea. I especially don’t understand those who give their overweight/obese kid 1.5l of soda for school. That’s the calories of a 4 cheese pizza and the kid hasn’t eaten a bite. And no, it can’t be a money issue.

  416. chigau (カオス) says

    Giliell

    The Female Man is still sitting on my shelf after I read the first few chapters.

    That makes me very sad.
    But it’s one of those really individual, personal things.
    (give it another try?)

  418. chigau (カオス) says

    Giliell
    I understand.
    When It Changed was a powerful short story. The novel was harder to get into.
    —
    When I clicked on Caine’s photo link up there, one of the first I looked at was one that look just like me.
    Aten’t telling which one.

  419. Thumper; Immorally Inferior Sergeant Major in the Grand Gynarchy Mangina Corps (GGMC) says

    @Crip Dyke

    That sounds incredibly insulting and uncomfortable :-? Sorry you had to deal with that. I don’t even understand why she reacted that way.

    @jacob Schmidt

    My partner’s step father refers to black licorice in the shape of people as “n***** babies.” She gets a little uncomfortable when I point out the racism in that.

    You have to point out the racism in that?!

  420. Walton says

    I’m sorry that happened to you, CD. That sounds like a very uncomfortable meeting, to say the least. Academics need to be much more aware of how their own position of institutional privilege impacts dialogues with their students.

  421. Walton says

    And I also wanted to add, to CD, that I’ve learned a great deal about social justice, and the unintended errors in my own thinking, from your posts on this thread alone. Thank you.

    For that matter, when I was studying at an American law school and taking some feminist-oriented and social-justice-oriented classes, I probably should have been much more conscious, in class discussions, of my own position of privilege as a white cis man. Something of which I was well aware intellectually, and for which I attempted and continue to attempt to account in my thinking, but that isn’t always enough. I tend to be talkative by nature, and I worry that that can inadvertently shade into talking over other people. But I digress.

  422. Bicarbonate says

    411 Caine Magic Mommas, Trembling Sisters and female power

    Yes really great stuff.

    It’s like stripping the plastic off a live wire and getting shocked.

    Jump start your engine.

  423. says

    Just a quick note – Joanna Russ, among her other complicated identities, was pretty strongly anti-trans, and wrote some rather unpleasant things. She did moderate her views somewhat before she died, and she`s among the few second-wave feminists to have done so, but it`s probably good to note that element of her work when recommending it? Not going to freak out on anyone for it, but I’d not like to be a trans woman dealing with transition now, and come on her unawares.

  424. Jacob Schmidt says

    Thumper

    You have to point out the racism in that?!

    No no. She knows. She just doesn’t like talking about it. Her step father is the only decent parent figure she has.

  425. Thumper; Immorally Inferior Sergeant Major in the Grand Gynarchy Mangina Corps (GGMC) says

    @Jacob Schmidt

    There I go again, opening my mouth without knowing the whole story. Sorry. Yeah, that’s totally understandable; we all gloss over our parent’s flaws.

  426. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Does anyone know if Og reads TDome?

  427. Ogvorbis says

    Crip Dyke:

    I do. Sometimes.

    I read much of the discussion regarding trigger warnings. I apologized as well as I can about not posting a trigger warning on my idiocy on the Stunned Silence thread.

    Then I went up and read what brought that about and went downhill.

    For those who missed it, I am deeply sorry and I apologize that I forgot trigger warnings.

  428. Antiochus Epiphanes says

    Crip Dyke: Thanks for your #385 (among other eye-opening comments). Although it isn’t your responsibility to educate me, and probably not even your intention, I learn a lot from you.

  429. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Og, even if the choice not to use a trigger warning was conscious, and even if it qualified as evil, you would still find me holding your hand.

    You would still find me looking into that evil with you.

    You would still find me condemning the action, cursing the white.

    And you would still find me loving you: Ogvorbis.

    This is me loving you.

  431. says

    Ogvorbis, I love you. I will always love you. That will not change.

    Giliell:

    Interestingly, your eyes are the same colour as Mr.’s. I alsways imagined them to be a glowing demonic red ;)

    If I could figure out how to do that…

    Chigau:

    When I clicked on Caine’s photo link up there, one of the first I looked at was one that look just like me.

    Aten’t telling which one.

    Heh. I aten’t asking.

  432. says

    @CaitieaCat –

    The essay Caine posted was about the stress of feminist groups and how our own internalization of patriarchal culture can lead us to make increasingly rigid behavioral demands on each other which leads in turn to the disintegration of activist communities. It’s not perfect and needs to be viewed with an eye for privilege and intersectional dynamics since I think she doesn’t fully consider those issues, but her basic point, that stress from external forces resisting change sought by feminism increases the likelihood of severe within-group conflict, is quite timely. I’d never read it before and different people sent it to me several times over the last months.

    It also has a nice subtext about how self-care is actually a radical act and how one should not sacrifice oneself for “the movement,” since that just carries on the “women have to take care of everyone” meme that is so incredibly harmful.

  433. says

    Here’s the comment I made on the New Commenting Rules thread:

    Several feminists have pointed me to this Joanna Russ essay in recent weeks. I think it’s useful for thinking about our desire for safe space and the means we use to achieve it. It’s probably not accidental that personal rancor has skyrocketed among longtime members of this explicitly feminist community (including, but not limited to, arguments I’ve been involved in) precisely at a time when we are confronting rape and sexual harassment by prominent members of our community and efforts to blacklist controversial feminists from participation in atheist events.

    We obey the Feminine Imperative sometimes, even when we don’t know we are doing so.

  434. says

    Interestingly, your eyes are the same colour as Mr.’s. I alsways imagined them to be a glowing demonic red ;)

    If I could figure out how to do that…

    Caine, really? I mean, really?

  435. says

    About the Russ essay, I liked it. I remembered Reading Russ back in the day. All that said, CaitieCat’s mention is important, and should be kept in mind. As we move forward, it is more important than ever that we all learn about the issues surrounding trans*persons and intersex persons, and not only support them, but learn how to be inclusive and not erase them or their experiences.

    I know that in the 80s, things were a bit different, however, we have to be very careful not to embrace mistakes made, whether they were honest ones or calculated ones.

  436. says

    Darn. Seems like a comment with two measly links went into moderation. Oh well.

    Caine, search for colored contacts, there are lots of them with fire in one way or another. Now for that flaming sword to go with it…

  437. says

    SQB:

    Caine, search for colored contacts, there are lots of them with fire in one way or another. Now for that flaming sword to go with it…

    Oh, I know. I’ve long coveted a collection of about one thousand different FX contacts. I’ve never worn them though, and they are spendy. Also, if I want scrip ones, an astigmatism makes it more difficult and expensive. That said, Mister would have a fit. My eyes are the odd ones, that change colour with mood or surroundings or light. He loves my eyeballs.

    As to the sword, well I have a love of sharp, pointy things. Have a bunch. Flames are showy, and unnecessary. :D

  438. says

    @432: Well, thank you for the long and matronizing lesson about the times when I became an activist. It’s nice of you to assume that I found out about her then-transphobic views by some magic spell, but in fact I’ve fucking read her work. I read her work back in the early 90s, when I was volunteering at a sexual assault support centre, right in the middle of the “second wave”. And got turfed out of that centre, for being trans, when one of the volunteers, a friend whom I’d spent a good deal of time talking through some heavy loneliness and depression, repaid me by taking a private letter I’d written about my past (before volunteering, mind) and sent to the volunteer coordinator, asking her whether it was appropriate and okay, laying out my own sexual assault history, and sending it to the board as copies. She found it while snooping through a desk as a house-sitter.

    The board didn’t invite me to the meeting. I found out because I had some friends among the volunteers who had integrity.

    I resigned, before the organization could tear itself apart about it. I didn’t sue, though others did when it happened to them, and they won. I didn’t want to take the money away from an org that did good work and helped a lot of people. Because I, too, have integrity.

    So I don’t say things like “hey, you might want to warn trans* people before sending along links to Joanna Russ, because she had some pretty transphobic stuff in her writing” without having a teeny little bit of knowledge in my teeny lady brain, k? And I didn’t say anything more than that, either: you just might want to let trans* people know when you recommend this. I didn’t say don’t read it; I didn’t say ban her works; I didn’t say don’t recommend her. I gave a piece of information.

    And then you cisplained at me for a while.

    So take your little history lesson, and your suggestion that I don’t have a fucking clue what I’m talking about, and shove it somewhere that will make you feel unhappy.

  440. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @argh, Caitie Cat,

    I don’t always pay attention to who writes what, so although I saw your heads up, and I saw the post above, I didn’t connect the two.

    My bad.

    You’re right, this is cis-splaining.

    I even didn’t like it without the dynamic of it being directed at you. I thought it was obvious that if you warned against the content, that meant you read it.

    I’m sorry this happened and that I didn’t have your back.

  441. says

    NP, CD – I was just kinda, like, seriously? I go out of my way to put the criticism as reasonably and gently as I could, and I’m still getting this?

    So, thanks, CD. Appreciated. :)

  442. says

    CaitieCat – that is a horrifying and painful story and I am sorry that happened to you. It should not happen to anyone.

    I posted what I did as a heads up that this particular piece, by a writer whom you cautioned commenters should be noted for her status as a TERF, did not contain overtly trans-exclusionary language and that a conversation could be had about the ways in which it is or is not applicable to today’s feminist atheist community. I had not know that Russ was overtly TERF, but knowing that, I will henceforth preface any reference to her work with a content note concerning intersectional issues generally and trans issues in particular.

    I do not talk about my gender identity or sexual orientation much on the Internet, but way to go with assumptions. As it happens, I am a feminist person who is fairly masculine in appearance and behavior, has some masculine secondary sex characteristics, and has female chromosomes and reproductive organs. I do not particularly identify as feminine or cis gendered, but I am not at this point in my life motivated to change my pronouns or official gender designation.

    I was not matroning you because, most importantly, I am not actually your mother and it is a social role I do not accept from other than my biological and custodial children. And I will not, on your behalf, insert anything in any part of my body or self to make myself one iota less happy than I am on this lovely September evening.

  443. says

    Azuma in the “Stunned Silence” thread, and bold is my emphasis:

    The entire world isn’t this way is it? Because, horrible thought just occurred, if it’s this bad in the western world, how much worse is it in India, Africa, and other half-feral shitholes full of Islamic rot and tribal violence?

    I realize that the thread in question was not ideal for any sort of callout about racism, but, JFC, that’s one obnoxious, racist comment.

  444. says

    @443: That is nasty. Ugh. I’m sorry I missed it. There were parts I had to skim. :/

    Anyone got the spoons to/feel like taking Butch there to school on why “I’m a bit queer myself” isn’t an appropriate response to “that was cissexist”? Include some reading lessons, on my actual OP, maybe?

    Cause I don’t. I’m regretting the impulse to actually speak up and warn people.

  446. says

    Oh, learn to read, Caine. Daisy, yes, that was a nasty comment, and I shouldn’t have let it slide, but I didn’t want a derail in thread, with so many survivors coming forward. Azuma has some issues.

  448. says

    I’m not going to go all Monitor and tell people to cool their jets, because this is thunderdome. That said, calling people names other than their nyms or known acceptable nicks is not helpful. Tear into ideas, not people, please.

  449. says

    Okay, I am going all Monitor.

    Monitor Note: Calling people names other than their nyms or known acceptable nicks is not helpful. Tear into ideas, not people, please. All people are allowed to discuss their experiences. Have a good fight, but keep it clean, please.

  450. Walton says

    I realize that the thread in question was not ideal for any sort of callout about racism, but, JFC, that’s one obnoxious, racist comment.

    Yes, it is.

  451. says

    So, Caine, your message is – it’s okay to be cissexist and double-down on it, but if I use one wrong word, that’s “not clean”. I see. So…cissexism is clean here?

    Okay then. Sincerely disappointed.

  452. says

    CaitieCat:

    So, Caine, your message is – it’s okay to be cissexist and double-down on it, but if I use one wrong word, that’s “not clean”. I see. So…cissexism is clean here?

    No, that is NOT my message. The use of names, that goes to *everyone*, it crops up in fights. Fight all you like, you have a right to do that, which I said. This is about addressing ideas, which are often bad, addressing attitudes, which are often bad, not attacking a person themselves. You are owed that protection, the same as everyone else.

  453. says

    Well, the cissexism and the doubling-down comes first in the thread. Why does my tone come before hir cissexism? And no message about the cissexism, so not even “before”, but “instead of”.

  454. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Mattir & CaitieCat

    The way many people use “mansplaining” and “cissplaining” et c., it does not require that the person be a man or cis to do it.

    However, many people do use those words in a way that limits it to a certain behavior carried out by a man or by a cis person. In that case, condescension is condescension, and condescension that has the effect of minimizing oppression is oppressive condescension – regardless of who the condesplainer is.

    There is possibly some unintended confusion here because of these different definitions of decidedly-neo logisms.

    That said, it is not okay to minimize oppression. It’s not okay to assume that someone is or is not cis.

    Please feel free to jump on ideas, but please don’t jump on each other.

  455. says

    :deep breath: Okay, a refresher:

    1. This is a rude blog. Expect rough handling.

    2. Justice is more important than civility. But aspire to be charitable at first.

    3. Recognize that your words may not perfectly convey your content — and that the words of other commenters may not perfectly convey theirs. When necessary, clarify what you mean, or ask other commenters to clarify what they meant.

    4. When someone says something apparently stupid or vile, verify before opening fire. Express your objection and ask them to rephrase their statement. Then open fire.

    5. Do not bring arguments from elsewhere into the comment threads. Do not talk about another commenter in the third person; do not call out commenters from other threads.

    I’m done. Fucking fight all you fucking want.

  456. says

    CaitieCat:

    Why does my tone

    It is not a matter of tone. It is a matter of calling people names. I would not pass it if someone called you names. I don’t give a shit about your tone.

  457. says

    Well, thanks for the backup, folks. It’s joyous to see how important my tone is, compared to the actual cissexism being chucked around, and the fucking amazing condescension. But fine, I’m out. Enjoy your transphobic asswipe, don’t tell anyone about her, because gods forfend we actually think about providing trigger warnings for fucking trans* folk too.

    Really, really fucking disappointed.

  458. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @CaitieCat –

    I’m a little slow on the draw, b/c I’m reading law, par-baking some eventual home-made hash browns, trying to keep two kids from fighting, and preventing Kitty from stealing food. I had something open and partially written before Caine came along.

    Condesplaining isn’t okay, whether it meets someone’s definition of cissplaining or not.

    Mattir, if you want to know why it comes across badly, it does so because trans people have been asked or told to ignore trans oppression in feminism for a couple decades now (before we were just kicked out of feminism, not ordered to read it). To have a heads up by an out trans person or ally get a follow up from the recommender of the material comes across as minimizing the warning.

    The harms of existentialist feminisms have been minimized enough. It’s time to simply let such warning stand without comment when they are given.

  459. chigau (カオス) says

    CaitieCat
    Are you really defending your use of the epithet “Butch” as using “one wrong word”?

  460. ksen says

    Posted in Thunderdome per Caine’s request:
    —————————————————–
    COMBAT ACCOMODATIONISM

    We stand for active ideological struggle because it is the weapon for ensuring unity within Pharyngula and the secular organizations in the interest of our fight. Every Atheist and secularist should take up this weapon.

    But accomodationism rejects ideological struggle and stands for unprincipled peace, thus giving rise to a decadent, Philistine attitude and bringing about rational degeneration in certain units and individuals in Pharyngula and the secular organizations.

    Accomodationism manifests itself in various ways.

    To let things slide for the sake of peace and friendship when a person has clearly gone wrong, and refrain from principled argument because he is an old acquaintance, a fellow townsman, a schoolmate, a close friend, a loved one, an old colleague or old subordinate. Or to touch on the matter lightly instead of going into it thoroughly, so as to keep on good terms. The result is that both the organization and the individual are harmed. This is one type of accomodationism.

    To indulge in irresponsible criticism in private instead of actively putting forward one’s suggestions to the organization. To say nothing to people to their faces but to gossip behind their backs, or to say nothing at a meeting but to gossip afterwards. To show no regard at all for the principles of collective life but to follow one’s own inclination. This is a second type.

    To let things drift if they do not affect one personally; to say as little as possible while knowing perfectly well what is wrong, to be worldly wise and play safe and seek only to avoid blame. This is a third type.

    Not to obey orders but to give pride of place to one’s own opinions. To demand special consideration from the organization but to reject its discipline. This is a fourth type.

    To indulge in personal attacks, pick quarrels, vent personal spite or seek revenge instead of entering into an argument and struggling against incorrect views for the sake of unity or progress or getting the work done properly. This is a fifth type.

    To hear incorrect views without rebutting them and even to hear superstitious remarks without reporting them, but instead to take them calmly as if nothing had happened. This is a sixth type.

    To be among the masses and fail to conduct propaganda and agitation or speak at meetings or conduct investigations and inquiries among them, and instead to be indifferent to them and show no concern for their well-being, forgetting that one is an Atheist and behaving as if one were an ordinary believer. This is a seventh type.

    To see someone diminishing the rationality of the masses and yet not feel indignant, or dissuade or stop him or reason with him, but to allow him to continue. This is an eighth type.

    To work half-heartedly without a definite plan or direction; to work perfunctorily and muddle along–”So long as one remains a monk, one goes on tolling the bell.” This is a ninth type.

    To regard oneself as having rendered great service to Reason, to pride oneself on being a veteran, to disdain minor assignments while being quite unequal to major tasks, to be slipshod in work and slack in study. This is a tenth type.

    To be aware of one’s own mistakes and yet make no attempt to correct them, taking an accomodating attitude towards oneself. This is an eleventh type.

    We could name more. But these eleven are the principal types.

    They are all manifestations of accomodationism.

    Accomodationism is extremely harmful in a secular collective. It is a corrosive which eats away unity, undermines cohesion, causes apathy and creates dissension. It robs the secular ranks of compact organization and strict discipline, prevents policies from being carried through and alienates secular organizations from the masses which Pharyngula leads. It is an extremely bad tendency.

    Accomodationism stems from ingrained religious privilege, it places interpersonal interests first and the interests of Reason second, and this gives rise to ideological, political and organizational accomodationism.

    People who are accomodationists look upon the principles of methodological materialism as abstract dogma. They approve of methodological materialism, but are not prepared to practice it or to practice it in full; they are not prepared to replace their accomodationism by methodological materialism. These people have their methodological materialism, but they have their accomodationism as well–they talk methodological materialism but practice accomodationism; they apply methodological materialism to others but accomodationism to themselves. They keep both kinds of goods in stock and find a use for each. This is how the minds of certain people work.

    Accomodationism is a manifestation of opportunism and conflicts fundamentally with methodological materialism. It is negative and objectively has the effect of helping theism; that is why theists welcome its preservation in our midst. Such being its nature, there should be no place for it in the ranks of secularism.

    We must use methodological materialism, which is positive in spirit, to overcome accomodationism, which is negative. An Atheist should have largeness of mind and he should be staunch and active, looking upon the interests of Reason as his very life and subordinating his personal interests to those of Reason; always and everywhere he should adhere to principle and wage a tireless struggle against all incorrect ideas and actions, so as to consolidate the collective life of Pharyngula and strengthen the ties between Pharyngula and the masses; he should be more concerned about Pharyngula and the masses than about any private person, and more concerned about others than about himself. Only thus can he be considered an Atheist.

    All loyal, honest, active and upright Atheists must unite to oppose the accomdationist tendencies shown by certain people among us, and set them on the right path. This is one of the tasks on our ideological front.

  463. ck says

    Wow. In case anyone was under any illusions that a woman raping a man wouldn’t be filled with accusations of lying or bullshit about it being impossible, we have a comment thread full of people denying it here (viewer discretion advised): http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/09/06/chicago-woman-charged-with-raping-a-man-at-gunpoint-stealing-his-iphone/

    Of course, there are a few MRAs there, too, which are unable to do anything other than whine about feminists (i.e. the usual).

  464. says

    ksen cribbed off of Mao’s Combat Liberalism. I’m not sure to what end.

    Seconding 458. No, someone else fucking up doesn’t justify ‘Butch’ as a pejorative. But I get anger and lashing out.

  465. opposablethumbs says

    ksen, what on earth do you imagine to be the point of that little exercise in search-and-replace? Perhaps you have something you’re trying to say (if so, you don’t seem to be making too good a job of it) but for the nonce it just looks … rather silly.

  466. morgan the interabang !? says

    Caine, please consider me an ignorant noob who is studying hard. Why did you ask ksen to post the Combat Accomodationism manifesto in post #460? I know that the level of contention has lately been beyond horrid. And I know that what you give to the community is huge and probably costs you emotionally. I just don’t understand how the manifesto might help solve our problems. Please tell me if I am simply obtuse.

  467. says

    Morgan, I asked him to post it here, because this is an open thread. The ‘future’ thread was humming along nicely, and there was a great discussion of books and cons and that stuff going on, when *boom*, a highly inappropriate (to that thread) wall o’ text landed smack in the middle of it. Asking it to be posted here, and asking for subsequent discussion of it to also be posted here allows the ‘future’ thread to recover, and people who want to comment on Ksen’s post may do so freely. That’s Monitor level stuff.

    On a personal level, I think the whole damn thing is silly, and I also think it was wrong to rip off someone else’s writing with nary a mention of doing so.

  468. morgan the interabang !? says

    Oh Caine, I’m so sorry. I feel like such an idiot. I did not know that this wall of text had been posted on another thread. Of course it belongs in the ‘dome. I assumed (a bad thing to do) that in your frustration with various confusions in the ‘dome conversation that you called in this long ideological rant. My profound apologies. The rant is silly, as you say, and sure as hell is not something that I thought you would endorse.

    You do a helluva job here, Caine. Above and beyond the call of duty. I am grateful and thankful and a little in awe of your capacious brain.

  469. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Morgan

    a little in awe of [Caine’s] capacious brain.

    Don’t we all envy that about her?

  470. Jacob Schmidt says

    morgan, that apology is rather… over the top. Actually, you’re original request for clarification is over the top. It reads to me like you think Caine will track you down if you’re not polite enough.

    ck

    Of course, there are a few MRAs there, too, which are unable to do anything other than whine about feminists (i.e. the usual).

    Really? Reading through the comments, I see people mocking the man (/spits) and people pointing out that just because he’s a man doesn’t mean he’s not a victim.

  472. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    I ate all of the guacamole.

    ALL of it.

    everywhere.

    I’ll be doing my best floating grinch impression over here if anyone needs me.

  473. says

    Morgan, glad that got cleared up. I don’t read all the threads myself, so I’ve often found myself doing a ‘wtf?’ over something until I can track it back, or do the easier thing and just ask someone.

    Jacob:

    morgan, that apology is rather… over the top. Actually, you’re original request for clarification is over the top.

    Y’know, it would be really nice if you kids could figure out how to fuckin’ behave on the playground. Just saying.

    Okay, I am out of here for the night. I have Mortal Engines on my tablet, and Predator Cities look like a barrel of fun right now.

  475. morgan the interabang !? says

    Flautas! Tortillas rolled around a core of thick guacamole and quickly deep fried. And a good night to all.

  477. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    The guacamole was leftover when a friend of the Redhead’s, while getting her husband some menudo, got some for the Redhead and her father during the in-law visit. The store threw in the guacamole.

  478. chigau (カオス) says

    RevBDC

    I ate all of the guacamole.
    ALL of it.
    everywhere.

    nuh uh
    *backs into corner clutching bowl*

  480. ck says

    Jacob Schmidt (#470) wrote:

    Really? Reading through the comments […]

    Really. The mods have deleted some of them, but there’s still a few that start at this comment by “Guest” with “GendErratic” picking up the torch shortly after:

    Guest wrote:
    but these feminist have people thinking that women can’t be the aggressors. WE are always the ‘victim’, they say…

    Even in a story about teh menz, it’s “What about teh menz?!?” That’s why I said it’s the usual MRA whining about feminists.

    So far, I don’t think it matters what your age, sex, or colour is when it comes to hyper-skepticism about the validity of a rape accusation. The excuses for why it’s a “false rape charge” or not a “legitimate rape” change, but the message remains the same.

    Although it may be somewhat inappropriate, I couldn’t help but laugh at this parody of Sen. Todd Aiken:

    August West wrote:
    At least we know he won’t get pregnant. The body has a way of shutting that process down.

  481. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Caine I will gladly accept your offerings of avocados!

    I just found Excalibur on directv

    I forgot how high the level of cheese was in this movie.

    So

    Much

    Cheese

  482. Jacob Schmidt says

    ck

    Even in a story about teh menz, it’s “What about teh menz?!?” That’s why I said it’s the usual MRA whining about feminists.

    MRAs: It isn’t about helping men, it’s about shitting on feminists.

    morgan

    Oh Jacob, you fool. Stuff a marshmallow in it.

    Eh? I’m confused. My comment was supposed to be and idle and meaningless observation. Sorry to have offended.

    (Aside: I won’t be sticking marshmallows anywhere but the trash; can’t stand ’em myself.)

  483. pHred says

    I always fed my marshmallows to the ants – it was fun watching them trying to get them into their nests.

  484. says

    Rev. BDC:

    I just found Excalibur on directv

    I forgot how high the level of cheese was in this movie.

    I know, I know, but I love that movie! Helen Mirren, Nicol Williamson, Nigel Terry, Liam Neeson, Patrick Steward, Gabriel Byrne…

  487. morgan the interabang !? says

    Ever try making home made marshmallows? They redefine sticky. You could use those things as flypaper.

  492. cicely says

    I may not make it to the bottom of the thread before game time, so I’m going to post this, even though it’s possible someone else has already done so.
     
    Remember all the outrage because a woman suggested that it would be nice to put the pictures of notable women (other than the Queen) on Britain’s money? Here is the follow-up on that.
     
    Trigger Warnings: Rape threats, murder threats, general evidence of misogyny, incivility-of-language.
    Caroline Criado-Perez’s speech on cyber-harassment at the Women’s Aid conference
    –

  497. carlie says

    chigau – I had free Sirius radio for the last week (they occasionally do it as a promotion, and it was embedded in my car), and that was one of the songs I heard on it. :)

  498. carlie says

    Needless to say, it did not convince me that Sirius radio was something I needed to have in my life.