The crazy Minnesotans keep crawling out of the woodwork and onto the political stage — it’s a little embarrassing. We’ve had a professional wrestler, a vampire, a crazy Jebus lady, and now…Gary Boisclair, an anti-abortion fanatic who’s running against Keith Ellison, our Muslim representative in the Fifth Congressional District. Here’s his ad (which he has no money to air, so only put it on youtube, where it got pulled for violating their terms of service), which makes a big deal of the fact that Ellison swore his oath of office on a copy of the Quran, which is full of bombastic Islamic tribalism and sectarian exclusivity, and threatens unbelievers with violence and horrible fates.
It’s a “book that undermines our Constitution,” says Boisclair. So what book would he take his oath of office on? The Bible, which is just as bad?
I’d prefer that they took the oath of office on The Origin. At least there’s less genocide in there, and better science.
Actually I partially agree with Boisclair. I don’t want someone representing me swearing the oath of office on the Quran.
Or The Bible.
Or Egypt’s Book of the Dead.
Etc. Etc.
Sometimes you have to take what you can get.
Yeah, well, he wasn’t sworn in with his hand on a Quran anyway. They don’t have their hands on anything during the swearing-in. (See snopes for all the pedantic truth.)
When I’m elected to congress (Rep. feralboy12, D, OR?) I plan to take the oath of office with my hand on a copy of Lord Of The Rings. It has its inconsistencies, but I can at least tell who the good guys are.
Theoden never offered up Eowyn for a gang rape, and his armies were never once instructed to take orc wives as concubines after the battle was won.
Pound for pound, the Bible has way more violence in it than the Qu’ran. There’s really no comparison, mostly because the Bible is full of historical accounts while the Qu’ran is more treatises.
Why not? Are oath-swearings less inane if they’re not done on books?
So, how is anything that he said in that video wrong or inaccurate??
What’s the point of this blog post, Christianity has been tamed, Islam hasn’t, it’s not a difficult concept to understand.
Origin , you say? Well, it might have less genocide, but the science behind it is still a little shaky. Also, even if they are less so YHWH, the Ori are still pretty assholish.
Okay, I appreciate that good hair does not a good candidate make, but you can certainly do better than Gary Bowlscut-air, Minnesota.
Islamophobic troll:
Bit fucktarded, are we?
1. Crying about the call to slay infidels in Quran is dishonest when the Bible also says to kill nonbelievers (Deut. 13)
2. Claiming that the Quran is inconsistent with the Constitution completely neglects the entire fucking point of separation of church and state.
3. It is demonizing someone just for being a member of certain religious group and insinuating that they are violent for that membership (much as you do) despite there being no evidence that the politician in question advocates for such violence.
The fact that Christianity is “tamed” is irrelevant to all of that.
What’s the point of this blog post, Christianity has been tamed, Islam hasn’t, it’s not a difficult concept to understand.
It’s like you’re stupid on every issue.
Thank you so much, I am very proud for demonizing bottom-feeding religious scum, the worst of course being muslims..
Regular troll:
Sigh. Ditto what Brownian said.
“Christianity has been tamed, Islam hasn’t”
Tell that to George Tiller, asshole.
He swore on some book that wasn’t a bible!
He eats meat on Fridays!
He wears a black belt with brown shoes!
He doesn’t like cherry pie!
He thinks pluto isn’t a planet!
HE IS DIFFERENT VOTE ME VOTE ME
Also, syggyx:
I want you to look down at your computer keyboard. Find the space bar. From there look up. See the B? How about the N? See the M? Now, look two over, past the comma, to the key with the period on it. See the period? It’s used to end clauses so you can begin a new sentence with a new thought? (Yes, I know what you have can’t exactly be called thoughts, but bear with me.) See it? Still looking down?
Now, mash your fucking face against the keys until the blood pours out and you can’t see any longer.
There’s a good boy.
Anteprepro: I meant Darwin’s On the Origin of Species, but the Book of Origin might still be better than the Bible.
It is certainly far more disturbing if a politician is a muslim rather than your average jesus-cultist.
Islam is not just a toxic violent superstition but also a political system that permeates every aspect of social life, and one that has not been reformed like jesus-cult has.
Not true. Xianity was put in a box several centuries ago by the efforts of many brave (and fed up) people. They keep trying to break out of their box and set up another Dark Age. Too bad the box is made of cardboard rather than Kevlar.
You forgot that the Moslems make up less than 1% of the US population. Fundie death cult xians make up 20-30% of the population and have their own party, the Tea Party/GOP.
The crazy fundie Moslems are Over There whereas the crazy fundie xians are Over Here. I live Over Here, simple as that.
I’m orders of magnitude more wary of the fundie xians. They are legion, maybe 60 million kooks, and make no secret that they want the worst for me and people like me.
Brownian, are you off your meds or something, please stop embarrassing yourself and close your internet browser..
Right. Like syggyx gives a rat fuck about examples contrary to his “what’s hard to understand?” golly-gee-whiz-aw-shucks bumpkin reasoning.
Ugh, whats the world coming to, bigoted boisclair isn’t even a rethuglican, he’s running in the democratic primary.
You used two periods that time. A pity only one was in the right place.
Is English not your first language? Or are you just the product of two siblings fucking?
Don’t worry, A.R. I figured. Just making a funny. Anyway, the troll sez:
Please inform us the ways that Islam is a political system that the other Abrahamic religions are not. No, the “but they’re reformed” nonsense doesn’t fly: it is just that our (somewhat) secular Western nations EXPLICITLY DON’T ALLOW ANY RELIGION to impose laws on us for the sake of imposing religious laws on us, i.e. don’t let people to treat their religion as if it were a political system. I can see the confusion in that there are countries in the Middle East that allow such laws to be applied, but I don’t think that someone from Minnesota was running for office in Iran or Saudi Arabia.
Wow, syggyx went a little over the edge there. I agree that fundamentalism is more prevalent within Islam (btw, what’s with the liberal protectionism of Islam? They are just as wrong as every other religion), and that the only reason Islam is thought of as being more evil by some is the fact that many don’t ignore the nasty parts of their holy book like the non-fundamentalist Christians do. I don’t single out Islam for attention though, or attack non-fundamentalist Muslims though. Sorry for the rant.
Just like xianity. I can tell you’ve never been to Texas, Mississippi, or any of those other places. And have never heard of the GOP/Tea Party which are mostly xian Dominionists who openly hate the US government and want to set up a theocracy.
I see you still can’t count. How many fundie xians are in the USA? About 60 million.
How many Moslems? About 4 million. Not all of whom are crazy fundamentalists. Your other fallacy is lumping all Moslems together. Quite a few are in the USA to get away from their own dysfunctional theocratic societies.
Damn, my second overuse of “though” in a post today…
That’s because he doesn’t think: he only responds to chemical gradients and variations in colour.
Oh Sam Harris, where are you when I need you…
Yeah,
like there’s no moderate Islam at all. Look up Bassam Tibi, idiot.
Also given the fact that the candidate in question is a fundamentalist Christian, it doesn’t really matter if Christianity has been tamed or not. Ask a literalist what they think about Christianity having been tamed.
That said to those here who are more familiar with fundamentalist Christianity and/or sophisticated theology, I have a question:
one difference that has been pointed out in the Islam v. Christianity debate is that the Qur’an is believed to be directly from god, thus unflawed and without errors, while the Bible is supposed to be “divinely inspired”, thus leaving room for human error (indeed this is also the Muslim view that the other holy books acknowledged in Islam, the Thora and the Bible are erroneous because of human error, with the Qur’an “correcting” and “perfecting” those books). This could be an obstacle against reforming and opening up Islam. But that’s not what I’m interested in here, as I know there are plenty of avenues within Islam to still get around this issue and open it up (short one word answer: fiqh)
My question is: is this true from your knowledge of Christian fundamentalism that even fundies would hold the view that the Bible can contain errors because it was written down by men (for instance, I’ve often heard the idea that the New Testament was a correction of the Old, but probably because it was Jesus who was doing the update it may not be of use here)? Or how do they rationalise the evident contradictions in the text?
You know what part of the Constitution taking an oath on a Quran, or a Bible, or “The God Delusion,” or any damned book you want or don’t want DOESN’T undermine?
Article 6, paragraph 3:
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.
I don’t like that as an atheist I will probably only ever have a choice between more and less harmfully religious candidates, but I like even less when people pretend to defend the Constitution by employing something that is blatantly unconstitutional.
Idiot.
I thought Ellison swore his oath of office on The Jefferson Bible… Am I wrong?
Subscribe to Pat Condell on youtube and you will understand, his latest 2 videos on Palestine are especially good..
pelamun: They often come up with elaborate explanations involving bad translations from Hebrew, Latin, Aramaic, and Greek. Sometimes they try to throw around “historical facts,” and sometimes they just ignore the passage.
Seriously, though, invoking Harris and Condell on the subject of Islam? I will inform you that they are no longer held in high regard here, especially on those subjects. But I will do so already despairing at such a waste of time, because I think you already know that are bringing them up just to get a few extra Troll Points. Just a few more stupid comments and you’re guaranteed an A+ for your third exam in Trolling 101, aren’t you?
And if it’s the Conservapædia bible, they just rewrite it.
@Anteprepro: just what I was thinking.
hallow are the Ori.
Naw. The fundies are all biblical inerrantists or literlists. It was all written by god.
In practice, since the bible is such an incoherent mishmash, they all just pick and choose like all good cafeteria xians. They just don’t admit it.
It’s all sort of academic. The vast majoirty have never read the bible and have no idea what is in it, or care.
Some scholars are claiming now that xianity is about dead. They don’t really care about god, jesus, or the magic book. It’s morphed into right wing extremist politics and spawned a demented Zombie trying to destroy the USA.
A.R. @ #
No it’s not. It may be more visible, or occur in sociopolitical scenarios where the open expression of fundamentalism is encouraged, but I highly doubt that fundamentalism is “more prevalent” within Islam.
There is a rather significant racist/xenophobic streak underneath a lot of anti-Islam rhetoric (and arguably, a rather significant desire not to seem racist/xenophobic underneath the “liberal protectionism” of Islam). It’s not about them being religious, but rather about them being foreign
I don’t know Keith Ellison or his politics. I don’t know how his religion is intertwined with his life. For all I know, he’s a Muslim for much the same reason I was a Christian, ie it was something he was born into. Fuck, that sums it up for most of us, I’d imagine, in that if we were religious, it is likely it was the one we grew up with(and grew out of).
So, instead of dealing with the issues, it looks like Boisclair had a problem with the fictional book Ellison had his hand on during an oath.
And:
Fuck no. Both religious, in and of themselves, are brutal and savage. That’s the fucking problem with religion. However, some religious people frame their religion in a way that the savagery and brutality do not filter into their lives. I’m sure that everyone reading this knows people that are religious and still good people. Just because someone is a Christian, or Muslim, or whatever, that doesn’t mean they adopt every fucking point and idea in the religion.
And have you been paying attention to the Dominionist movement? Those fuckers aren’t tame. Some extremist Christians can easily match the violent zealotry of extremist Muslims any day. And some of the more liberal and rational Muslims will denounce violent acts done in the name if Islam, just as the same kind of Christians will denounce violent acts in the name of Christianity.
Fuck, it is pretty simple. The religions of Christianity and Islam are brutal and savage. But not all of the Christians and Muslims are brutal and savage.
Let’s make this clear here. Just checked out a wiki article on Ellison. He seems like a good guy. There was this quote form him: “The district I represent is the kind of district where you can have a Member of Congress stand up for religious tolerance and against religious bigotry, against anyone, but also stand up for the rights of gays too.” Fuck, that’s good. I don’t know if he actually does this, but hey stating it s good fucking start. And then there’s Gary Boisclair who is attacking Ellison on the basis of Ellison’s religion.
And you mean to say that Christianity is tame?
Go live in a moderate Muslim county, idiot.
Also, A.R: I fail to see a big difference in toxicity (it’s hard to quantify anyways and you have to control for all different kinds of factors, especially that Christianity is supported by Western privilege). The book debate was one of the reasons I used to be more wary of Islam than Christianity, but from observing fundamentalist Christians, I don’t think it matters that much. A problem might Islam has certain behavioural rules, which would take some courage even in a secularised society to break. But there are parallels to rules in Christianity, and Reformed Judaism has also set aside a lot of them.
We aren’t pro-Islam. We are anti-bigot. We are anti-hate. we are anti-dumb.
You are a stupid bigoted hate filled troll.
Ze Madmax: Not sure if I can totally agree with you on your first point, but on the second, yeah, that’s probably why Islamophobia (real Islamophobia, not the legitimate criticisms and shock that are sometimes called Islamophobia) is so prevalent in Europe. I will note for the record though, that I attempt to view every religion with equal contempt.
Ze Madmax:
I also find another element to be offensive: That often the criticism of Islam isn’t that it is “just as wrong as every other religion”, but is that Islam is WORSE than other religions. That it is extra wrong, that it is extra evil. The insinuation is that the ideology is inherently worse than Christian ideology, more primitive, less humane, more willing to impose itself on others, and less worthy of respect/adherence. The fact that even atheists take this tact, despite it being blatantly Biblically-blind apologetics on behalf of Christianity, makes it all the more impressive, and all the more important to oppose.
rave: I’m afraid you’re quite wrong, I am in no way a troll (see TET and the Zombie thread for proof) I am also not directing that comment to this thread, but the liberalism in general. I do not condone in any way bigotry, but I also do not condone the protection of any religion from criticism. Now please insert a decaying porcupine into your orifice of choice for failing to actually research before calling a semi-regular a troll.
Fuckwit cites a known islamophobe for support. What a loser…
Tell it like it is Mr. Clearwood!
Anteprepro: I agree, Islam is not in and of itself “extra evil” I suppose this view stems more from the fact that there are still strong Islamic theocracies, and, as you said, blindness to Christian fundamentalism.
Bravo! You got it! This is what vast amount of evidence tells us..
Just ignore the rest of the delusional garbage after that.
A.R
What does stereotyping keith ellison have to do with legitimate criticism of islam?
raven and others,
thanks for confirming my suspicion that the view I used to hold about Islam less amenable to reform, mainly based on that “book directly from god” argument was probably informed by the biases present in Western societies. The experience of living in a moderate Muslim country, learning about the complexities of Islamic theology (fiqh) have shown me that the book argument alone doesn’t hold up. Also the reality of moderate Muslims not following the rules, just like in a secularised Christian country.
And then look at the Dominionists someone cited, and all the other strands of crazy fundie Christians, and you get a Christianity so untamed that you would be ripped apart instantly if you spent some time alone with it in a room….
Might I suggest to A.R to reexamine your biases in this light too?
[(Credible)Citation Needed]
robertm: Absolutely nothing, I was just responding to an extremely Islamophobic troll. I’ve no issue with Rep. Ellison, in fact, I think he is one of the better members of his party.
Jesus Christ, but somebody pull the plug on this brain-dead fucker already. Terri Schiavo drooled less than this clapping monkey.
Given that syggyx is a known male supremacist, you didn’t respond to him very effectively. Especially that canard about “liberal protectionism of Islam”.
Exactly. The long and the short of it is that all three of the Abrahamic religions have plenty of evil to go around. The thing is that most modern theists in the mold of the Abrahamic religions tend to be more secular. So they lose the bigotry and intolerance.
I cannot call Islam more evil than Christianity based on the actions of some fundamentalist Muslim governments. Fuck, I would hope that anyone here would know that Christian Theocracies have been as bad at times. Fuck, Christianity was used to justify fucking slavery.
But fuck, not every Muslim is some suicide bomber waiting to happen, just not every Christian wants to fire-bomb abortion clinics and stone homosexuals.
In the end, we should revile all the evils done by all the religions. We should oppose intolerance on all levels. We should fight against bigotry. We should support equality. To take one religion and put it below another is absurd. They are all irrational and prompt a backwards way of looking at things. The only reason that I tend to focus on Christianity is because that is the religion that has had the greater impact on my life.
pelamun: Oh, wonderful he’s an MRA too. The bit WRT some liberal politicians protecting Islam is something I will not bring up again, considering the reaction it provoked.
Wow, I’m so glad that you people here, on this blog, are a tiny irrational minority.
A.R @ #45:
And why would that be? As far as I understand it, certain Muslim-majority countries are host to particular circumstances that promote the development of extremists movements (e.g., weak governments, high degree of inequality, countries that were essentially made up by Western powers with no real consideration towards the particular characteristics of the different ethnic groups living there, etc.). This is part of why extremism is more visible.
The other part is that Western media is extremely biased towards a worldview that blames Islam for violence caused by Muslims, and blames anything else for violence caused by Christians (fundie christian kills abortion doctor = crazy person did the crime | fundie muslim blows up a market = ZOMG ISLAM IS TEH HATE)
Yes nothing says ‘superiority’ like simplistic, jingoist argument by assertion coupled with a literacy that qualifies as ‘just barely’.
Yeah, because running around like a chicken with the head chopped off screaming for Pat Condell is really rational.
Sure, people demonizing others just for their faith, without any indication as to what influence that has on their daily life and their decissions, is absolutely rational.
@Bruce #32 – I believe you’re half right, and Ellison swore his oath on Jefferson’s copy of the Quaran.
Maybe he doesn’t know how to hyperlink, and that’s what’s keeping him from providing evidence for his assertions.
Glodson,
Back in my days as an agnostic, I used to this a lot though. The most peaceful religion was Buddhism etc. Took me some time to realise that Buddhism is as irrational as the rest. Also in its folk religion variety, it’s got plenty of gods too.
Ze Madmax: Hmm, I agree totally that Islamic fundamentalism is typically more visible and reported on, especially after the terrorist attacks of 9/11, 7/7, and 4/11. The Christian fundamentalists are fairly numerous too, but not well reported on.
A. R
Ok I see your point, from skimming the comments I don’t see anyone trying to silence legitimate criticism of Islam, Bruce Crumley of Time magazine is, but I can’t think of any one else. Bringing it up in the context of Islamophobia is a standard islamophobe tactic and can easily be misinterpreted.
jrobie, Bruce,
you’re all wrong. Check post #3.
For those too lazy to go to Snopes, the photo taken after the actual swearing in was taken with Jefferson’s copy of the Koran, but it was not present during the swearing in.
*facepalm*
I’ll be honest. I don’t give a rat’s ass what a person believes, so long as they don’t go around trying to force me to believe it too or impose rules that come from their religion on me. From what I understand, Ellison is unabashedly secular and votes like it. Why the fuck should I care what he does in his spare time?
Oh, and for what it’s worth: Ellison, in the swearing-in ceremony that is staged by most Congresspeople for the cameras did in fact swear on a Koran. One that had belonged to Thomas Jefferson.
Not that it matters.
Not true at all.
No Religions make up 22% of the US population (66 million people) and score high in education and intelligence.
You are the tiny minority.
A troll. Very stupid. Hate filled. Misogynist.
The troll is down to trivial insults now. Boring. Maybe he will bring up some of his other hates, which is all he seems capable of doing.
Esteleth, see post #3, with the same link you posted.
Technically speaking, he wasn’t sworn in on any book. Congresspeople do stage swearing-in photo ops, but that’s not a legally binding oath, I believe (IANAL!).
Surely an anti-abortion fanatic should swear his oath of office on a DVD copy of ‘The Bourne Identity’ whilst ‘Be my Baby’ plays a stirring chorus?
Pelamun, AR, Esteleth – Thanks for the real story regarding the swearing-in ceremony, obviously I missed it the first time through the comments.
Do you think Bosclair’s head would explode if he knew that none of the members of Congress had sworn an oath of office on a bible?
Dear Brother syggyx,
I think you are very cool! Your homogenising, stereotyping, nuance-free prejudice is just the sort of thing God is looking for to win the world for Christ. Seriously, you are wasted as an unbeliever! Would you like to join me in my Christian mission? With you at my side we’ll rid God’s world of ragheads before the Almighty can thunder, ‘Vengeance is mine!’ Together we could end the Haj, sack Mecca and rock the Kasbah, all in the time it takes one of Godpa’s football coaches to molest a dozen defenceless children.
Yours in mutual Islamophobia,
Smoggy
PS While you’re thinking about it, would you mind trotting out a few more of your deranged slogans? Everytime I read one I get very aroused and have to go and re-visit the Onan chapter in my Bible.
PPS I have a good friend and fellow missionary named Floyd Rubber who thinks he may know you. Were you ever incarcerated for snowdropping and placed in a cell with a seven foot Muslim who liked to force you onto your knees facing Mecca and play hide the pork-free sausage? Certainly that would explain a few things.
Smoggy Batzrubble: Remember what happened last time someone wrote a snarky letter here? :)
Speaking about violent religious states, how about Uganda?
How about Israel?
And they have nukes.
People in a minority religion can generally be trusted to be more egalitarian since they don’t have the tacit support of the majority to hew to the more crazy tenets of that religion. Of course, this is the sort of above-first-level thinking that sgxxygxgx is incapable of.
jrobie,
since when have fundamentalists cared about the truth?
A. R, I’ve laughed out loud twice today, once was Smoggy Batzrubble, the second was yours.
pelamun: They care about the truth as long as it is their “truth” (usually consisting of a metric shit-tonne of lies)
head -> desk. Look up “Jewish secularisation” some time.
“Smoggy Batzrubble: Remember what happened last time someone wrote a snarky letter here? :)”
I have no idea. I do not read this blog as it is evil and satanic and you atheists are all going to hell where you will have to listen to lectures on sexual abstinence from Mother Theresa for all eternity while demons that resemble Anne Coulter clamp red hot weights to your genitals and then swing off them.
I only write what Jesus tells me to.
Smoggy: LOL. You are either an amusing satirist, or the strongest Poe I have ever seen!
A. R,
Smoggy actually has an OM, got it in June 2009
Indeed. Not only that, religious minorities usually have a vested interest in resisting the efforts of the nutty members of the dominant religion too. After all – a very pronounced thread of “Once we’re done with them (the gays, the feminists, the women…) it’s your turn,” runs through authoritarian religion.
At the risk of Godwinning the thread, I’ll just point out that Niemöller was describing accurately how it works – they take down one Other, then move on to the next.
pelamun: Thanks :) I was wondering about that.
What a disgusting dangerous fool you are.
When The Muslim Population Of Any Country Reaches 20% Freedom Disappears
Pelamun, Israel is just as secular as the US is. They are a Jewish nation, in the same way the US is a christain nation.
And the godbots are in charge. And keep getting elected.
Today Keith Ellison, tomorrow the world!
Backatcha, you barely literate puke.
LOL, I just remembered that Pat Condell has a term for people like you–>useful idiots
Look it up!
Wow, really? That is fucking moronic. This whole Islamaphobia thing stinks of tribalism. Hey, those people are different! We can’t have any of that shit over here.
Basically, I guess if the population of Muslims reaches 20%, fucking Allah takes over? Bullshit. This is asinine. There are reasons why it wouldn’t work everywhere, especailly here. Fuck, there are Muslims here that reject violence. Last I checked, Muslims and then us Atheists were the most likely to reject the death of civilians as ever being a justifiable act.
Basically, this is grasping at fucking straws and just emotive shit.
On to something better:
I did the same thing with liberal Christianity. I tried to make it work. I tried to edit it to my liking. But rationalism won in the end, and I had to throw the whole fucking thing away. It was too rotted to save and based on superstition and bullshit. In some ways, it was my desire to keep my beliefs as they were that kept me from admitting to myself that I am an atheist. Once I killed that stupid belief off in my whole head, a ton of cognitive dissonance left me.
LOL syggyx is a useless idiot.
Agree with your first bit. Disagree with your second. The Likud has traditionally not been a party of godbots. It has formed coalition govts with godbot parties such as Shas, that’s true.
LOL!
That is funny. What else does he say that you can parrot?
Clap at Condell, monkey, clap!
What a fucking moron you are, Troll. Seriously, the only specific thing you’ve cited here to support your ridiculous, paranoid, bigoted opinions is a 4 minute youtube clip. Is that what comes to mind when you think “credible source”? Fuck. Off.
As much as I hate agreeing with people as nasty as Syg here, he has a point: Christianity has been somewhat tamed. We need to keep it in its box of course, but it is in its box. For now.
Of course if it shatters the walls of the box, all hell (literally) will break loose. I shudder even to think. And unlike Syg, I don’t think Islam is inherently more evil; having studied both a fair amount I’d say they’re both pretty godsdamned vile.
But at least one is contained. For now.
I’m getting Segmentum flashbacks.
That’s fine, but you just know he’s going to bukkake the fuck out of you for that. Could you at least throw the rest of us a towel first?
The thing is, Hazuki, is that Christianity isn’t in a box. Ask the people who died in the Oklahoma City bombing if Christianity has been “tamed.” Ask the people who died in the Atlanta Olympics bombing. Ask George Tiller.
And those are just three examples off the top of my head.
I see Syzzygy still hasn’t learned to count.
I learned that in kindergarten.
US Moslems 4 million.
US Mormons 6 million.
US internet trolls less than a million ????
US syggyz’s 1
US death cult xians ca. 60 million.
The Mormons outnumber the Moslems and are just as malevolent and crazy. We actually once fought a war with them, the Utah war.
The fundies vastly outnumber any other threatening group we have to worry about. They’ve already done a huge amount of damage to the USA. They make no secret they will do more when they can.
I’m not going to hide in the closet because a Moslem might be there, not when they make up 1% of the population. There are much more realistic threats to worry about.
Syggyz isn’t one of them though. I doubt a single crazy stupid hater can do a whole lot of damage. Maybe there is a god after all. His hate is counterbalanced by what is clearly a low IQ.
Hazuki,
your total ignorance of life in moderate Muslim countries is noted.
Hazuki: Christianity is indeed in a box, it’s just that the lid is open and one of its arms keeps thrashing around outside destroying shit. Islam is perhaps in the same situation.
Christianity isn’t so much tamed, or in a box, as much as it happens to be predominant in countries with a surplus of leashes and cages to keep it at bay. Islam abroad, however, happens to be predominant in less industrially developed and more chaotic countries, where keeping theocracy at bay takes a back seat to more pressing matters. They barely have enough resources to worry about their food and housing to start worrying about keeping packs of rabid fundamentalists from roaming the streets. We have our packs of fundamentalists, but only have a few strays that have run off their leashes and harmed people directly. It’s not because we have a better breed: It’s just that we have better access to restraints.
syggyx, a little tip for you: The term “useful idiots” was in use before Condell was born, albeit just barely.
Anteprepro: That’s a new way of thinking about it.
Yes, members of congress are sworn in, However, no religious test may be applied. Personally, I don’t care if the person doing the swearing wants to swear on a stack of vintage Batman Comics.
(hey, would *You* break your word to Batman? he’s more real than Jehova. )
Yeah this 20% Muslims taking over European societies is xenophobia at its finest. The video cited this example of two Berlin schools that had instituted Muslim-only doors.
I did some digging, and it turns out that these doors were not officially designated Muslim-only doors, but in formally within the student population. In certain areas with a high percentage of disadvantaged minorities you get social conflict, and many European societies have had a hard time trying to find adequate solutions. It’s not a question of religion.
Very true, Anteprepro.
WRT fundamentalist Islam, I read awhile back (and, of course, I can’t find it now) an article that discussed how Hamas gained the support of the Palestinian middle class.
Free kindergarten, formula and diapers for parents of young children, textbooks and school supplies for older kids.
I am not defending Hamas in any way. But that’s how they got their power. The people had a need that wasn’t getting met, and Hamas stepped in. This doesn’t mean that the average Palestinian agrees with every single goal of Hamas. It means that they had a need and Hamas met it. This is an indictment on the failure of the not-Hamas organizations to meet those needs.
Want to defeat the radicals? Stop handing them desperate people on a platter.
Well, according to Hitchens, the best way to defeat radical religion is to defeat poverty, and to defeat poverty, the fist step is to empower women. Of course, every major religion opposes feminism.
Actually Anteprepro,
You’re quite wrong about this. Many dictatorships in the Muslim world made*) it a priority to keep those fundamentalists OFF the streets, by force.
*) past tense because overall, Muslim societies have become more democratic over the years, which has enabled some fundamentalist groups to operate more openly. But Turkey and Indonesia are examples that show that it is possible to co-opt Islamist parties into the political system of a secular democratic state.
The earliest mention of Boisclair I could find in my wingnut archive comes from ’09, when he & others demanded that Catholic bishops deny Christ Crispie crackers (aka communion) to any politician supporting Obama’s health care plan. Randall Terry then described him as “leader of the Honolulu affiliate of [Terry’s] Washington D.C. based Insurrecta Nex”.
At an anti-Council on American-Islamic Relations protest last year organized by “Tea Party Leader Andrew Beacham”, Boisclair said:
Later in 2010, he denounced NARAL and the DC Abortion fund for “selfish, deceptive, wicked ideas”.
This year he was arrested in a protest at John Boehner’s office, later writing an overwrought comparison of Boehner with 1930s British Prime Minister Stanley Baldwin and “his pacifist agenda”.
His announcement of candidacy on Oct 24 this year included such constructive rhetoric as “Ellison consistently legislates for socialist programs, which in effect make us the slave labor force of the federal government.” (followed by the usual Terry-droid frothing against Planned Parenthood).
He claims two BAs (Philosophy & French) and one MA (Education), all from University of St. Thomas in St. Paul, and a work history including grade school teaching (Edina, MN, ’98-03; Honolulu, HI, ’05-09), plus construction, painting, restaurant managing, and various stints in “youth ministry”; since ’09 he’s devoted himself to the Tea Party and another Randall Terry group, Society For Truth & Justice. His longest employment (7 yrs) was in an Edina “family-owned furniture business”.
His boss, Randall A. Terry, endorsed Boisclair’s candidacy: “I will brook no criticism for Gary, or for anyone else on our team, who risks his life to speak up on behalf of our Christian brothers and sisters who are bleeding and dying under the tyranny of Sharia Law and the Koran.”
I dunno why he hasn’t made more of a fuss about gays, Mexicans, or gay Mexicans – maybe Michele B will teach him what she knows about these other Menaces to the American Way of Life…
Well stated, Esteleth. A lot of radical organisations seem to operate that way, and manage to gain support among those individuals who would otherwise not support them.
Hell, that’s what the Christian missionaries do.
Esteleth,
it’s not just the failure of Fatah, it is also the failure of the West. I mean Hamas didn’t make money appear out of thin air to finance all their operations, Saudi Arabia, which is the prime example of a theocratic state, was funding a majority of their budget in the 2000s.
Brownian: With the vile Mother Theresa being a prime example
pelamun:
Wait…so the majority of governments in Muslim majority countries used force to assure that fundamentalists wouldn’t have the ability to enforce barbaric religious rules or commit violent acts in the name of religion with relative impunity? The “by force” part makes me think that the problem remains essentially the same, unless the governments in question were mostly secular: It is the religious abusing and desperately maintaining authority. It’s just that, instead of the problem being a violent theocracy or streets filled with violent hatemongers, it’s a totalitarian, religious-tinged government violently cracking down on people who don’t have the proper flavor of religion (or just people in general, for those countries that aren’t “radical” but still love them some death penalty). Yet another of the bugs that are less likely in a more fully secularized and stable nation (of which the United States is the notable counter to the trend).
So why are the Randall Terrybots all running as Democrats? What streak of genius made them do that?
@102/Pelamun
Yes, unfortuately I don’t know much about life in Turkey or Indonesia. I’m sure it gets to be similar to life in any other fairly cosmopolitan country, and that even an atheist will be fine as long as s/he keeps his/her head down.
You seem to know something about this. I’d be interested in your stories, if you do :)
Ugh, sorry pelamun, I’m daft. I thought that the focus of your complaint was that some countries did keep fundamentalists “off the streets” but on second reading, I see that your core complaint is actually that a good number of countries did so, despite not necessarily having a good economy, which I suggested might be necessary before one dealt with such concerns. Point taken, and, in retrospect, I should’ve known that order and justice (or even injustice) usually doesn’t often take a back seat to concerns about prosperity. My bad.
Anteprepro,
most of the dictatorships in the Muslim world weren’t all that religious. Keywords,for the Arabic countries: Ba’athism, Pan-Arabism. For non-Arabic countries, look at Kemalism and Pancasila. Pakistan is a more complicated example, because the military dictatorship under Zia (the one who hanged Benazir Butto’s father) had a decidedly religious bent.
None of these secular regimes wanted to eliminate religion, but they did strive to relegate it to a nonpolitical, cultural role, similar to the role Christianity plays in many European countries.
Even tho’ I’d read the title on the landing page, reading it again at the head of the post registered as
He and Bachmann could be FFS!
Ah, thanks for the info. So, yeah, I suppose my understanding of the matter is a bit moot, given that.
A noble goal, I suppose. Though I doubt I support the means if it was something that could be considered “by force”…
Oh, the irony, the irony.
Anteprepro: Actually, the primary reason they suppressed fundamentalism was more related to a desire to remain in power than one of secularism.
Ok, Anteprepro,
I saw your latest post now. Yeah, I also think it was often key for a dictatorship to neutralise the Islamists as they saw them as a potential threat to their regime (similar to how the Nazis viewed the Christian churches).
Hazuki,
yeah, it was quite an eye-opening experience to spend some more time in a moderate Muslim country that had undergone a painful process of democratisation. In countries like Turkey and Indonesia, you have an urban secularised part, and a more traditionally minded, rural part (and this traditionally minded part might be larger percentage wise than in Western countries due to the fact that these countries are less developed, but especially Turkey has been having a lot of growth these years). After democratisation, in both countries suppression of religious fanatics was no longer possible, so some segments have been allowed to radicalise openly (and Indonesia especially has had trouble with Islamist terrorists targeting foreigners). But it doesn’t look like the Islamist parties are actually trying to establish a theocracy nor are would they be supported by the population in that.
Some observations:
– drinking alcohol: many many urban types do it. Also, there are traditional formented beverages that are even officially exempt, like the raki/tuak, which also applies to rural areas.
– Ramadan: many people eat behind closed doors. Restaurants are open but often cover their windows, as you’re supposed not to eat in public in front of other people. Ramadan was also the only time I saw some women wear a veil, as it’s customary to do so within a mosque. However, with democratisation, the number of women wearing hijab even outside of Ramadan has visibly increased.
– blasphemy laws: both Turkey and Indonesia have them, though in Turkey it’s more like a secular blasphemy law, i.e. insulting the state and/or unity of the nation is a crime, whereas in Indonesia insulting any of the six officially approved religions is (so in Indonesia you can go to jail, for several years, for insulting the prophet, or desecrating a cracker. No death penalty like in Pakistan). Generally, both countries (Indonesia even more) are multi-cultural and multi-religious, and have used nationalism in the past as a unifier, not Islam.
– dating: even though I’m not sure how much of it is cultural and how much religious, in Islam you’re not supposed to date, it’s more like a courtship concept like in fundie Christianity. Many people opt to ignore this totally.
– secularisation: I don’t have any data for this, but I think in Turkey this might be more advanced, with large swaths of the urban population ignoring religion in their daily lives. Indonesia due to its lower income level, might be lagging behind. Even those that didn’t follow the rules that much, did try to keep appearances, at least for their families’ sakes. This also means that a pro forma religious marriage is very important to many families (which means for Western men that they’re expected to convert and get circumcised). But atheism is not a crime, and there are atheist groups operating freely. (However, about the time when Obama lived in Indonesia, atheists were being hunted down and slaughtered by the secular dictatorship because of a failed communist coup.)
“So why are the Randall Terrybots all running as Democrats? What streak of genius made them do that?”
citation needed.
The Sailor: you are aware that PZ actually does post links in his posts? If you’re too lazy to follow his links, I’m not gonna put them on a platter for you…
Pelamun, you said “why are the Randall Terrybots all running as Democrats?”
citation needed.
I’m not gonna engage you in a nitpicking session. F*ck off.
So, how is anything that he said in that video wrong or inaccurate??
What’s the point of this blog post, Christianity has been tamed, Islam hasn’t, it’s not a difficult concept to understand.
Tamed? Seriously?
The KKK is a Christarded organization, dumbass. We can’t even begin to count how many people they’ve killed. Record keeping for the brown people wasn’t high on the list of the South, you know.
Or how about these christarded thugs:
Michael Bray–bombed 10 abortion clinics and liberal groups. Raving lunatic fundie nutbar christhard. Convicted in 1985. Never should have been let out, but was in 1989. By 1989, sent a teletype to the FBI that he was going to go right back to bombing. Told Richard Dawkins in a taped interview that homosexuality and adultery should carry the death sentence. This fool is walking loose. If you had the capacity to think, you’d know what a mistake that was.
Michael Griffin–Anti abortion scumbag and piece of shit coward who murdered a Florida doctor who performed abortions. In the back.
Paul Jennings Hill–Anti-abortion scumbag and murderer of another Florida doctor who performed abortions.
Stephen John Jordi–Ah, this murderous douchebag thug. Anti-abortion scumbag and child abuser. Convicted for plotting to bomb multiple abortion clinics.
James Charles Kopp–Anti-abortion scumbag and murderer of a doctor who performed abortions. Strongly suspected of murdering two other doctors in the same area around Rochester, NY.
David Leach–publishes an anti-abortion scumbag newsletter that advocates murdering abortion doctors.
Timothy McVeigh–Right wing lunatic. Murdered 168 people in Oklahoma City.
Scott Roeder–Anti-abortion scumbag who murdered Kansas physician, George Tiller, who performed late-term abortions.
Eric Robert Rudolph–Where to start with this piece of shit? Bombed the 1996 Atlanta Olympics. Bombed multiple abortion clinics. Bombed a lesbian bar. Two people dead, and 150+ injured.
John Salvi–Anti-abortion scumbag who walked into two abortion clinics, murdered the receptionists and injured 5 staff members. Committed suicide in prison.
Shelley Shannon–Anti-abortion scumbag who attempted to murder George Tiller, first shooting him in the arms. Admitted setting fires and conducting butyric acid attacks at nine abortion clinics in four states. Raised her daughter to be an anti-abortion scumbag. The daughter would send a death threat to a doctor in Wisconsin, and was convicted for the death threat.
Fritz Springmeier–Right wing Christarded piece of shit who first robbed an adult store in Ohio, but then bombed it, too. This waste of DNA is now spending his days in a nice pen.
Clayton Waagner–Anti-abortion scumbag, car jacker, bank robber and legitimate dumbass. So stupid that he left explosives and lists of abortion clinics in a car he stole–and then abandoned. Good going, douchebag! Did he learn? Of course not. Nope, ol’ Claytie here decided to lug his wife and nine kids across the country to kill him some A-bortion doctors. Only problem: His car broke down in Illinois, and a cop ran the plates. What a surprise! That car was stolen, too! And he had firearms in his car, even though he was a felon and it was illegal for him to have guns. But wait–there’s more. Claytie somehow managed to escape (how dumb were the people watching him???). He robbed some more banks and stole some more cars, but the FBI finally caught his sorry ass. Oh–and he mailed envelopes to abortion clinics that he claimed contained anthrax. This guy is like a jack of all stupid. This Academy Award winner has fortunately been removed to a prison cell until January 2046, to protect him from himself.
All of these disgusting excuses for human beings were Christians. Every. Single. One.
I’m not gonna engage you in a nitpicking session. F*ck off.
Sorry, that doesn’t fly here. You’re the one who made the claim. You have to back it up.
Welcome to Pharyngula.
Oh, wait–I have another Christian terrorist!
William Krar. Billy was sorta mad about the way things were going in this country. So he decided to stockpile himself some weapons, you know, because he was skeered that the government was out to get him. You know, some machine guns, some bombs, 500,000 rounds of ammo, a silencer, some sodum cyanide bombs here, some hydrochloric acid bombs there–it adds up!. That’s right, cupcake, we had ourselves a Christard in this country wanting to poison tens of thousands of Americans–if not more. And he would have gotten away with it too, if the postal service had delivered the package properly to his co-conspirator, rather than to some nice man on Staten Island who understandably got concerned when he got a box full of fake birth certificates from various states, along with some photo IDs for government agencies like the Defense Intelligence Agency.
Oh and don’t be so twee about cuss words here, fuckface. Say fuck off if that’s what you mean.
We’re waiting for the citation. Cough it up or fuck off.
See? That’s how it works.
As long as Christians like Fred Phelps, Pat Robertson and Steven Andersonson continue to spew their hate, Christianity cannot be described as “tamed.”
You can f*ck off too, Aquaria. I can asterisk my words the way I want. It’s my own preference, I don’t tell you to do it
( And update the facts in your list, some people like Springmeyer have been released in the meantime.)
The article mentions two Terrybots running for office, they all run as Democrats. It wasn’t a claim, The Sailor’s nitpicking was a derail as my question pertained to the strategy of the Terrybots running as Democrats instead of Republicans. Read the fucking article linked to in the OP.
Ah, that should be just one “son” in Anderson.
Your priggish prissiness is noted.
Aquaria:
There’s also the C Street Christian politicians who are behind the loathsome policies in Uganda regarding GLBT peoples.
How about the Catholics, who persist in teaching that condoms are bad, bad, bad, no, downright evil, which results in more and more deaths every day? How about the various Catholics and Christians who run shelters and hospices, who won’t provide any help at all to anyone who doesn’t convert on the spot?
How about loathsome, disgusting asspimples like Scott Lively? There’s a Christian who would love being able to murder wholesale.
Well, I don’t like to use insults that much personally, so what? I can accept it that people use them here.
Pelamun:
It’s fucking stupid, especially as it’s a favoured thing of Tone Trolls™ to do. If you can’t cope with typing fuck, then don’t bother using it all.
Caine,
I guess it’s because I usually don’t use words like “fuck off”, so subconsciously I wanted to soften it. It’s not so much the word “fuck” in itself but the way you use “fuck off” in the imperative (no problem at all for “fucking” as a general modifier, or “fuck” as an expression of exasperation). I’ve had my history with these two posters in the past, so I guess I wanted to express my desire not to engage with them. But I’ll take your words under advisement.
fuck
@Brownian #28
I’m stealing that. Just so you know.
Rev. BDC:
fuckety.
Wow, two = all!? Color me gobsmacked.
duck butter.
Pheasant Plucker.
Try saying it a few times fast.
Duck butter? Well f**k me.
Thanks Pelamun, I have a new ‘nym!
I’m not the pheasant plucker, I’m the pheasant plucker’s mate.
I do not think they are inane. We do need some sort of procedure where someone says: “Yes, from here on out I do accept a certain level of responsibility/accountability to certain principles laws and so on. And if I fail in said duties, there will be consequences.”
It is a necessary step for court testimony, holding public office, and so on. I see it as a subset of contract law really. Here I am accepting basic terms of a contract with the public and so on.
What’s with the liberal protectionism of pheasant pluckers?
The evidence clearly shows they’re way more extremist than fig pluckers.
Hey, isn’t Boisclair one of the like-minded assholes Randall Terry of Operation Rescue recruited to run quixotic campaigns against notable Dems in fairly safe congressional districts, Terry himself running against Pres. Obama, soley to be able to force the media to run ads that have those ubiquitous gruesome abortion photos because Terry et. al. have legit campaigns? I mean those beheading shots in Boisclair’s anti-muslim/Ellison ad? Seems like the same M.O. to me. Jus’ wonderin’.
Brian:
Why? You do understand that it’s meaningless, right?
All that oath swearing started out as a sort of threat, given that one wouldn’t be stupid enough to go against God, who could do bad things to you after you swore on a bible or in God’s name.
Anyone can swear an oath, with or without gods involved, and lots of people do and have no problem violating the oath they swore. It really doesn’t have any great effect on people and it doesn’t magically make people good or ethical.
Just starting the thread, but…
Marcus Bachman’s obedient BSC wife* is my representative. I would take Ellison over her in a heartbeat.
* Apparently, according to their beliefs, that’s how I should refer to her. I might have missed something in the details, but that’s the gist I got.
To elaborate a bit on muslim minorities especially in Germany:
The German perception of what Turkey and Turkish people are, is largely distorted due to the fact that those who came to live in Germany weren’t the educated elites from the cities, but the poor, uneducated and generally more backwards people from Anatolia.
When they arrived in Germany, they were already several decades behind the mainstream culture of their home-country, and since in most cases minority groups are more inflexible and cut-off from their own mainstream culture, that distance has grown since then.
For years, you’d see more veiled women in Berlin than you’d see in Istanbul.
The fact that Germany never accepted them as citizens (there’s still no full, automatic German citizenship for children born here) or members of our community helped to create differences and gaps.
That also makes left-minded Germans very wary about Islamophobia. It’s a difficult dance with lots of nuances. Most “criticism” of Islam is only thinly veiled xenophobia. Suddenly the right wing has discovered muslim women as a poor opressed group, care about honour killings and such, when for decades their (inofficial) position was “what do I care if the Turkish bitch dies. One less I have to worry about”
How come nobody has mentioned Breivik yet?
Just huffed out to Google Jeffersons Qu’ran. It’s a translation of the Qu’ran, thus not the genuine article. It needs to be written in Arabic to be considered a Qu’ran.
Now I’ll go back to where I left off to see if anyone beat me to it.
Good thread.
Just huffed out to Google Jeffersons Qu’ran. It’s a translation of the Qu’ran, thus not the genuine article. It needs to be written in Arabic to be considered a Qu’ran. Batman sounds better here.
Now I’ll go back to where I left off to see if anyone beat me to it.
Good thread.
To those claiming that Christianity has been tamed obviously haven’t looked to Africa in the last, say, thirty years…
Why aren’t all our politicians sworn in on the Constitution? Is that not the law of the land & the documents that our country was built on? Why the need for any religious symbolism at all?
If Christianity was tamed, this blog would be about biology :)
I’ve noticed that syggyx doesn’t seem to have the staying power of many of our trolls in a thread-by-thread* basis, but I was hoping we might get a curtain call on this issue.
So, syggyx, tell us about the moslems you know personally. Clearly you know quite a number of them, and they’re primarily violent, bigoted fundamentalist throwbacks.
Otherwise, we’d have to assume you’re just parroting soundbites, and you’re far too smart and honest for that.
(*”…stitching it together!” Now that song’s gonna be playing in my head all day.)
PZ, no worries. As a resident of the 5th district (aka the people’s republic of South Minneapolis), I can assure you that we get wingnuts running against Rep. Ellison every chance they get. They don’t do well; Rep. Ellison does good work for his constituents and we vote accordingly.
Okay, dumb question: who is the MN ‘vampire’?
Just a quick question to the less than lovely troll who mistakenly sees Cassandra in the mirror – When was the last time one of these dangerous Islamic Nations invaded a non-Islamic Nation?
I’m sure the audience can see where I’m going with this, but let’s turn the question around. However repugnant I find the theocracies of the Middle East (and they are a most unpleasant bunch) it is quite a while since they had the military clout to smite the infidel in any meaningful sense, but no doubt the Tamed, Xtian democracies that have the clout have been the very models of restraint?
There were two posts I saw on Reddit a while back that I liked so much I kept a copy of them. Sorry for the length.
And also…
#158,
As pointed out earlier the actual oath (or affirmation) is on the Constitution. (per Article VI, clause 3)
It doesn’t involve any touching of paper or any religious test.
The photo ops are basically just PR.
#152,
Re: Why have an oath at all?
We are human beings.
We need to mark important events and changes in our lives with symbolic acts, pageantry, and traditions.
Why else cut ribbons to “open” an new building or wear silly hats at graduation.
Humans are inherently irrational, you might have noticed.
pelamun @30 My question is: is this true from your knowledge of Christian fundamentalism that even fundies would hold the view that the Bible can contain errors[?]
I was raised Southern Baptist. They are of the opinion (Grandpa’s voice: “Knowledge!”) that the bible is infallible and literally true, every word of it. A couple of caveats:
1. They mean the King James Version, of course. Other versions are true only to the degree that they do not deviate from the KJV. I was told by a fellow soldier once that “Only the King James bible is divinely inspired!” I suggested that if it was, then surely the Greek and Aramaic precursors would be. After much suspicious thought, he allowed that this would be true. It is the only time in my life that I have convinced a Fundamentalist of any religious matter using reason.
2. They are a little fuzzy on the whole concept of literal, since they tend to think symbolically without being aware of it.
The Earth was literally created in six days, but when Jesus said a rich man couldn’t enter the Kingdom of Heaven, he was just joking, or something.
3. They also think that they do not “interpret” the bible. My grandpa the Southern Baptist preacher used that word frequently when referring to other denominations, and you could see the venom dripping from his mouth when he did. I never found one whom I could convince that he was interpreting everything he read, in various ways.
I’m from Texas and I’m very worried about what you Minnesotans are doing up there.
Brownian, I LOL’d at your keyboard exercise.
Sailor, I <3 you for remembering Dr. Tiller. And Aquaria.
I believe you’re thinking of Hitler. Granted at times the two are easy to confuse.
Seriously, considering dominionists want the state to kill me (and are willing to do it when they have the power as shown with their darnest efforts in Uganda) Why would I care which insane religion wants to snuff the life from my body?
What benefit do I get to be killed by a crusader over a jihadist?
This is the YouTube channel supporting the guy.
http://www.youtube.com/user/ThLuckyOne?email=comment_reply_received
Roadrash548
Yes, exactly that was my question behind #134. Why do they run as Democrats? Wouldn’t it make sense for them to run for the Republican nominations? I mean they’ll never get the Democratic nominations, and even if their chances at succeeding in the Republican party are slim, they’d find more potential supporters there?
kermit
Thanks. So might be a liberal Christian thing then. I mean liberal Muslims also can say: Yes despite what the Qur’an says about [social topic], it was written when it was written and we can adapt it to our modern times.
GLub
What’s your point? Even Muslims who don’t know Classical Arabic need translations and interpretations in their own language if they want to understand the Qur’an better, even the Saudis are distributing English translations of it. Though some just memorise the Classical Arabic without understanding it. Also, the American public doesn’t care if Jefferson’s Qur’an was a translation or not.
Caine
re oaths. In many countries across the world it has been customary to swear an oath, as a politician about to enter office, or a govt official to take on a post. There is this idea that if you work for the state/nation/monarch, you have a special obligation to show loyalty towards this state/nation/monarch. It is true that god was woven into this in many cases, but many secular republics have continued this tradition.
An oath of office can
– make you liable if you violate it. In the US, several states make it perjury to violate it (though I think recent lawsuits have been less successful, it might have been more important after the Civil War). In cases of treason, I could very well imagine that it may become an aggravating factor.
– mean that per your loyalty obligation, you forfeit certain rights. In Germany, govt officials usually are granted tenure, and in return may not go on strike.
oh Culoptila
I think the vampire was Gov. Pawlenty
http://vlesports.com/viewtopic.php?t=83537&p=1039396
Ellison had a Koran once owned by Jefferson with him when he was sworn in. Jefferson was not a Christian, but a ‘Deist’ and a free-thinker who believed in exploring other religions. He also thought the myths and stories of religious texts were never meant to be taken literally. He probably owned a Christian bible but the “Jefferson Bible” often refers to a version Jefferson himself edited, taking out all the irrational elements, like walking on water and raising people from the dead. Jesus is repackaged as an Enlightened philosopher. Can you image if a presidential candidate did that today!? He would only not get elected, but we might be put under investigation. And if any congressperson actually did swear on the Jefferson Bible, they would be treated worse than Ellison.
Btw, does anyone know of any congressperson or Senator who is admitted Atheist or Agnostic? Has there ever been one?
Akhnaton,
see this article, it’s Congressman Pete Stark
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/10/04/secular-group-27-secret-atheists-in-congress/
I live in this district and there is a better chance of seeing the second coming of Christ before this idiot gets elected.
it’s Congressman Pete Stark
Speaking of which, today (or yesterday, depending on where you are) is Rep. Stark’s 80th birthday!
And fortunately he’s still running for re-election next year.
Ing@169,
Actually “useful idiots” is usually attributed to Lenin, but AFAIK, no actual source in his copious writings has been identified. It has mostly been used to describe (real or alleged) Soviet sympathisers in the West during the Cold War. It’s a phrase of particular use to those who don’t actually have any evidence to back up their claims, but think it makes them sound worldly-wise and sophisticated.
Pelamun: My apologies to you and the rest of the commentariat for failing to read through 159 comments to find my question was already answered. Time was short for me then.
However, perhaps you missed the point of post. That these are “Quixotic” campaigns against pols who are in reletively safe congressional seats. It appears it could be irrelevant which party these anti-choice folks run under as they know there is little hope of actually winning.
But media outlets are prohibited, ostensibly, from censoring or refusing to air campaign ads produced by the candidate. Good taste, perhaps, notwithstanding.
Therefore the plan is to air the afore-mentioned “gruesome” pics of aborted fetuses that are integrated into their campaign ads.
It’s not about winning office, that’s the door prize if even remotely successful. It’s all about abortion.