That is, Jenny McCarthy, ditzy mummy who opposes vaccinations because she thinks they cause autism, and Amanda Peet, smart woman who knows that inoculation is a great benefit. McCarthy has just sniped at Peet:
“(Peet) has a lot of [nerve] to come forward and be on that side, because there is an angry mob on my side, and I like the fact that I can say she’s completely wrong. I look at (Peet) now and say to myself, ‘That was me before I had autism in my life,’ and until she walks in our shoes, she really has no idea.”
Oh ho — so Jenny McCarthy’s great logical defense of her position is that she fronts an angry mob? Well, two can play that game. Pharynguloid mob, get over there and support science and intelligence in their poll. Amanda is down, 46% to 54%!
Bad enough she’s married to that ex-porn star goof of an overpaid actor husband.
There, I did my duty and voted. Also, it must be because it’s late and I’m tired, but I read “ditzy mummy” and pictured the other kind of mummy. You know, the scary type :-S
I despise Jim Carey. He’s what New Age ecumenical drivel is all about…just listening to him run his mouth about spirituality is enough to cause polyps in one’s colon.
“We are not against vaccines…”
Well you could have fooled me.
50:50 now. Bonus: I like Amanda Peet, and don’t reflexively turn the channel if I see her in a movie. This is not true for McCarthy, even before she admitted being an ignoramus with her belief that her son’s condition is due to vaccination. Nice to know Amanda Peet is smart too.
Done, and not just because I’ve had a crush on Ms. Peet since She’s the One.
Amanda Peet (68%)
Jenny McCarthy (32%)
Total Votes: 105
another worthless, un-scientific poll appears to be heading towards the side with evidence to back it up.
Yeah, calling for boycott of the sensible, nice and pretty lady’s movies. Dickheads. I don’t see anyone boycotting McCarthy’s mov… er, let’s use Carrey instead. I don’t see anyone on the sensible side trying to boycott Carrey. No need when you’re right and can back it up.
Funny, someone who elected to get a boob-job is speaking out against vaccines.
Amanda’s up to 80%…
We have fucking crushed that poll.
Impressive….Peet now WAY up….
Mob rule rears its ugly head on the internets.
Amanda 83%
Jenny 17%
204
Looks like our mob of goons can shoat loader than their mob of goons.
Voted 88:12 now.
I have no idea who Jenny McCarthy is, but I would vote for anybody as pretty as Amanda :)
Tried to vote (first and only time, honest) and it said I had already voted. That and the occasional “you already commented” messages I get from here is starting to make me suspicious there is someone else in the building where I work reading, commenting, and obeying PZ and getting us confused because all our ‘net traffic goes through the same proxy. Oh noes!!1! I’m associated with evil atheists more than I thought. Or maybe not, please don’t let it be Pete Rooke. Please. Oh I feel faint – I may need to say a little prayer. Brb…
Amanda Peet (86%)
Jenny McCarthy (14%)
Total Votes: 252
Our angry mob can beat up their angry mob. So there. Neener neener.
Never mind vaccines, is Jenny McCarthy yet another data-point for the case that being blonde has a detrimental effect on intelligence.
Amanda Peet wins because she is way better looking than that hag McCarthy, but also because she’s on the money. Who’d have thunk you could have looks and brains? :P
I’m curious, what is the mechanism these
wackjobscraziesnutcasesadvocacy groupswackjobs think vaccines are causing autism by?http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15858952
Holy shit, it’s not vaccines!
Not to mention, the “cause” they like to point to thiomersal, even though it’s not used in childhood vaccines anymore.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18172138
Fucking retards.
No PZ, McCarthy’s argument boils down to “I have a son with autism and you don’t, so I can say whatever I want and you’re just a big meanie who doesn’t understand what it’s like, boo-hoo-hoo-you’re a horrible person-boo-hoo-hoo!”
To Jenny: let’s talk about a real public health crisis. Unlike the vaccine-autism non-link, shameless appeals to emotion and claims that only members of the in-group truly ‘get it’ have been demonstrated to cause infectious stupidity time and time again.
Why is it in America, they ignore their own findings?
Johns Hopkins discovered the link decades ago and suggested waiting til children were older before giving them the shots, but you guys just keep on pumping out brain damaged Americans and making fun of anyone who tries to save people.
Thank god your economy is in the shitter, you guys suck.
Pharynguloid mob?
We have become PZ’s Flying Monkeys!
Speaking of… The Calgary Herald had a nice, sane editorial today on this sorta thing (more specifically on a certain god-besotted twat’s opposition to the Gardasil vaccine program, but with bonus mention of MMR, too).
(And it was 90/10 when I looked in on the McCarthy/Peet thing.)
Oh noes, i’m not sure I dare disagree with Tanya (even if she is 100% wrong).
Amanda is ahead of turnip brain McCarthy. Doesn’t turnip brain have her god on her side? Who the hell caused her son’s autism?
peet way up, and besides – she looks better naked.
(yes, that’s a sexist, objectifying statement. deal with it.)
You’re crashing celebrity polls???
A shoat is a young pig. Mob of goons shoat loadering, indeed.
@ silencer #21
Citation, please… or are you just doing the “I know this cuz a friend of a friend of a friend once dun tol’ me” thing?
Amanda’s characterization of anti-vaccinationists as “parasites” is an apt one, as they benefit from the herd immunity vaccines help confer without contributing to it themselves (or rather, having their children contribute).
Why do Amish kids not have any autism? God? Or the lack of vaccines?
Or maybe just coincidence? Correlation doesnt mean causation.
Amanda Peet all the way. Brains and looks.
93% Now behind Amanda. The mob rules.
Stupid polls.
They do have autism, you fucking tool, and they do vaccinate. If you have nothing more than antivax lunatic ‘talking points’, please do us all a favor and beat your head against an oak wall if the urge to post here again strikes you.
They do. And the Amish do vaccinate, albeit typically at fairly low rates.
Orac’s post this summer on Jenny McCarthy and her Indigo-Children phase was hilarious:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/06/your_friday_dose_of_woo_generation_woo.php
OK, I think we Pharyngulites definitely count as a mob. The vote count is now over 600, with Peet leading McCarthy 93% to 7%. We RAWK.
A very close and dear member of my family has gotten caught up in this anti-vaccine hysteria, and it just makes me sick and sad. I can’t stand the way they value emotion over evidence. Scary how the anti-science tropes can come from the left as well as the right…
Jenny @ 30,
It’s a myth that the Amish don’t vaccinate. They do. However, it’s not a myth that they have much lower rates of Autism.
Next.
94/6. We hear and obey.
People who want to learn more about autism can listen to free audio podcasts entitled “Autism and Vaccines: Parts I & II” put out by Midnight In Chicago at http://www.mic.mypodcast.com
“Why do Amish kids not have any autism? God? Or the lack of vaccines?
Or maybe just coincidence? Correlation doesnt mean causation.”
bwahahahahaa, awesome. because the Amish are such a great control group for vaccines; or any other the other thousands of things they do differently than the average American.
#30
Whether you are Jenny McCarthy or not, your statement is equally both frightening and ignorant.
First, the Amish DO vaccinate, and second, Amish children DO have autism… just not at the rates one would expect given the same number of population, statistically.
Please do some, you know, actual research before spouting such ignorance. Start here for this particular false claim:
http://autism.about.com/b/2008/04/23/do-the-amish-vaccinate-indeed-they-do-and-their-autism-rates-may-be-lower.htm
Oh jebus, the mercury militia has arrived. Now all we need are the 9/11 twoofers and the Dilbert fans.
Hmmm, I’ve had autism in my life. My younger brother is badly autistic, to the point that he will never be able to live on his own or really care for himself.
He was vaccinated later than most children and, in fact, manifested symptoms of autism long before he ever got a shot in the arm.
95/5
I’m not sure if you’re trying to parody Ms. McCarthy or seriously posing this question, but the answer is: They do. Dan Olmsted didn’t look very hard.
http://autism-news-beat.com/?p=29
Jenny’s kids better not go to school my with kids. Even though my kids have measles boosters, I don’t know what other diseases her kids may be carrying.
It really didn’t take long to swing this poll.
Power to the PZ Pod People!
Still 95-5 Amanda. Hot and smart beats hot and dumb any day.
total domination.
This is going to give Peet a big head. Oh wait she’s a TV star and anatomically I think they all havebig heads! Have you ever seen Robert Redford or David Hyde Peirce. Huge heads for their bodies. Juliette Roberts too.
Not anymore.
I choose Amanda Peet. I don’t even have to know what the question is; I choose Amanda Peet. Now, if I could just get Amanda Peet to choose me…
For those who think the ilk are just a bunch of “do as the tentacled overlord says”, I viewed PA’s post, I clicked the links, I saw stupidity versus intelligence, and voted, as always, on the side of intelligence.
96 to 4 now, favoring Amanda Peet. Online polls are goofy, but it felt nice to click a key for the kiddies.
One side may have an angry mob, but the other side has reality.
And, of course, a mob just waiting to prove their point.
96% to 4%. Reality is winning.
OK, I voted. After forcing myself not to retch with disgust I voted for “Amanda Pete”. Not that I wanted to vote for “Amanda Pete”. I’d rather be asked to vote on the validity of evidence based biomedical research. Instead, I’m asked if to decide which side I “believe is right? Jenny McCarthy or Amanda Peet?” As if I should base my “beliefs” on the opinions of two “B” list Hollywood actresses. (Ok, maybe they’re “A” list, but what do I know, I’m gay?) Seriously though, when did questions of epidemiology, and the efficacy and ricks of vaccination become something we can (or should) answer with American Idol like “opinion polls”? What’s next? An unknowledgeable, incurious, self-proclaimed “hockey mom” being considered by nearly half of the voting population to be a qualified and viable candidate for the second highest (and one pretzel choke away from the highest) office in the land for no other reason than “she a lot like me”?
Dear god. If I wasn’t already an expat i’d emigrate.
I used to say “I want to want to fuck Jenny McCarthy!”. Now, I say “Fuck Jenny McCarthy!”
96/4 at last count
Peet, 97-3. Oh yeah. It’s my birfday.
AP: 97% JM:3% You have an awesome power P. Z. Please use it only for good, never for evil.
Wow. You just can’t beat that logic:
“I happen to know someone who has condition/disease X, so this makes me an authority in the field of medical science concerning condition/disease X, and everyone else should keep their fucking mouths shut!”
Actually, that’s what I did. I tend to ignore American practices when it comes to medicine and look to European practices instead. I do that because our system is to unduly influenced by money and governmental policy corruption.
OTOH, the woman with the Autistic child is just plain wrong. And the whole “vaccines = autism” movement is just plain wrong.
So, in fact, I find fault with most of the industry and its critics.
Lol. Don’t worry, we’re taking you with us… What our free-market idiots have done has the potential of making the Great Depression look like a cake-walk.
Somewhere a slightly grumpy clear box with blinking lights has powered up and is calculating the amount and density of Insolence that will be let loose.
97% to 3%. That didn’t take long.
“I lost my wife in the world trade center attack, so I’m an authority on terrorism”
I wonder what evidence McCarthy has that the shot was responsible for autism? I’m betting none at all.
Who’s Juliette Roberts?
1. Being gay, I have never seen either of them naked but I voted for Amanda.
2. My older son is autistic, so I’ve lived in her shoes–not the 4″ heels–but I have never had to strike out and blame someone or something for my son’s condition.
3. Jim Carrey did porn? Now that is truly disgusting.
Jenny @ 30
Amish kids don’t use light bulbs or zippers at anywhere near the same rate either, perhaps the reason is one of them. It can’t be due to vaccination, since they DO vaccinate, as has been pointed out many times.
I would hazard a guess that the real reason may be genetic, since they are probably a fairly closely related group.
1552 votes, reality winning 97% to 3%
Danio – Nice shot by the way. ;o)
Yeah, and someday that’s going to fail massively. If the non-vax rate rises from say, less than 5% to ten percent or so, that is a nation of thirty million within your borders without immunity to MMR and polio. They are not geographically distinct, but they are an immunologically distinct population overlaid atop the rest of you. Canada’s not so bad for antivaccine activism, but stupidity crosses borders.
I hope it is mumps or measles rather than polio that hits first; maybe people will smarten up. But they are all bad.
Fixed.
Amanda 97%
Jenny 3%
O.T., Sarah Pukin’ interviewed by Hugh Spew-it.
HH: Do you think the mainstream media and the left understands your religious faith, Governor Palin?
SP: I think that there’s a lot of mocking of my personal faith, and my personal faith is very, very simple. I don’t belong to any church. I do have a strong belief in God, and I believe that I’m a heck of a lot better off putting my life in God’s hands, and saying hey, you know, guide me. What else do we have but guidance that we would seek from a Creator? That’s about as simple as it gets with my faith, and I think that there is a lot of mocking of that. And you know, so bet it, though I do have respect for those who have differing views than I do on faith, on religion. I’m not going to mock them, and I would hope that they would kind of I guess give me the same courtesy through this of not mocking a person’s faith, but maybe perhaps even trying to understand a little bit of it.
http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/blog/g/0c03d39e-df44-41fc-af7d-f2f9a7f56b68
So being amicable is out of the picture?
Treat the mob as people with great thirst for knowledge and teach them.
Give them a piecemeal lunch, piece by piece. Ask them small, brief questions on how they define different terms and things.
For instance, make them explain how the increase in number of autistic children is measured? Make them be scientists about it. If they are impatient and unwilling to go through the hoops, be amicable again. Be royal about it.
There is a great chance to win hearts and minds for science but instead people will rather do anything to reinforce the image that scientists are really pricks the people say they are.
Jenny may be an ass but she’s an ignorant ass. Being an ass while knowing better is really just a little bit worse.
As Michael Clarke Duncan’s character, Frankie Figs, said of Amanda Peet’s character (an apsiring hitwoman) in The Whole Nine Yards,”You know, I can’t think of nothing finer than a fine naked woman holding a gun.”
Part of the reason for the rise in autism rates is also that it’s being diagnosed as such at a higher rate, including border-line cases. That may be a factor in lower rates of Amish autism.
IT HAS BEEN PHARYNGULATED, SIR.
Yes, the mob is going to listen to those who say everything’s fine when there are a few alarmist voices out there telling them it’s not…
Amanda Peet 97%
Jenny McCarthy 3%
Total Votes 1978
Kel,
yes, well, I do understand that it is difficult.
What I’m saying is, the negative emotions thrown back is not just bad PR, but reinforces the emotional conviction on the other side that there is really something fishy about the situation.
Be the better one. Not for the sake of being right and better.
Give the others respect even if they will throw it at your face and rather show that you care, but that you can not and will not give up on the principles of science.
Dealing with emotions you must first defuse the situation by engaging the emotions. The facts and science stands on its own.
By ridicule you are being _unscientific_.
Slightly off topic
Posted by: Blake Stacey | September 30, 2008 7:07 PM
Oh jebus, the mercury militia has arrived. Now all we need are the 9/11 twoofers and the Dilbert fans.
WTF is up with Dilbert fans? I’ve been an avid follower of Pharyngula for a good six to eight months now, and I guess the whole Dilbert thing was before my time.. I keep seeing it referenced and I have no idea what anyone is talking about. Is it just the fans or is Scott Adams a total YEC/jebus freak/you hurt my cracker choad also? If someone could point me to the correct thread/controversy I would greatly appreciate it.
And the poll was completely destroyed by the time I got to it 97/3. Anything else I would say about it would sound utterly sexist, so I’m gonna shut up now.
Dogbert: “I’ve got something much better – anecdotal evidence”
Dilbert: “Who’s going to believe anecdotal evidence?”
Dogbert: “I’ve narrowed it down to… PEOPLE”
As of two minutes ago:
Amanda – 97%
Jenny – 3%
Reality – WIN
BAW – EPIC FAIL
Poll crashing – priceless
In other unrelated news, EXPELLED (aka Excreted) is soon to be on DVD:
http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/09/29/expelled-redux
Enjoy!
If Amish have a lower incidence of autism it is likely due to genetics. They are a highly closed society in all ways including genetics. Unfortunately, this means they have a high incidence of some other genetic problems caused by recessive genes.
I am the mother of an autistic boy and gratefully follow vaccine schedules for him.
Jenny McCarthy leading an angry mob? Oh dear. I am now picturing her in Kenneth Mars’ role in Young Frankenstein as Inspector Kemp.
“A riot is an ungly thing… . undt, I tink, that it is chust about time ve had vun.”
Pale @ #78:
These people HAVE been shown the evidence, HAVE been fed it piecemeal and whole, HAVE been treated as people. The problem is that they insist on having something to blame rather than accepting that reality can be harsh and uncaring. Their behaviour is akin to a childish foot-stamping tantrum. Unfortunately their tantrum could affect a whole population in a very real and negative way. Sometimes a metaphorical slap is needed to end the hysteria.
SimonC,
mmh… maybe, you’re right. Dunno.
I’d still aim for divide and conquer. Get one (1) person in their midst to convert and you’ve got that someone who has the mandate to turn the tide.
Hank @ 81
Oh no, now we’ll be inundated with commercials for the DVD of that insane crap. I only wish I could edit a few “Special Features” into the finished pile of shit!
Justin @ 79,
Here’s a place you can at least start.
http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/comments/scott_adams_is_a_wally/P25/
Oh man did I pick the wrong time to quote Dilbert to make a point :P
“Why do Amish kids not have any autism? God? Or the lack of vaccines?
Or maybe just coincidence? Correlation doesnt mean causation.”
Jenny, look, I grew up in Lancaster, PA, the historic home of the Amish (No, I’m not Amish). My first job was working on an Amish farm and my family has lots of Amish friends and aquantances.
So take it from me when I saw that autism, downs syndrome, retardation and a host mental and physical ailments plauge the Amish society. Spend a day at the S. June Smith Center in Lancaster — a facility that assists children with mental and physical handicaps, many of them Amish children — and you’ll see it for yourself. In fact, I encourage you to do that. The center does wonderful work and could use the exposure that a visit from a celebrity like yourself could bring.
Your assertion that the Amish don’t suffer from autism is patently wrong.
The truth is that there are only a handful of original Amish families and — save for a few that left the sect entirely — they only marry within the Amish community.
This means that in-breeding since the 1700s and the resulting genetic complications that come with it are commonplace in Amish society.
I don’t fault you for wanting to assign blame for the cause of your child’s autism. After all, that is a very natural, human reaction. But people in emotional circumstances are often willing to be led down the primrose path of pseudo-science if it makes them feel better. I’m sorry to say this, but you’re just wrong on this count. Doesn’t mean you’re dumb, just ill-informed.
Angry counter online mob powers activate! Form of a Poll Crasher!
Ian H Spedding FCD @ # 17: Never mind vaccines, is Jenny McCarthy yet another data-point for the case that being blonde has a detrimental effect on intelligence.
Dude! Blonde jokes are, like, so pre-Palin.
I just checked in on the poll on the Ecorazzi website and saw this:
[Update: Welcome Scienceblogs readers! Your poll mobbing is indeed impressive.]
Not nearly as impressive as our evidence.
(Oh, and about the mocking of the Dilbert fans, I think this thread from January 2007 rather cemented the impression in the Pharynguloid consciousness.)
Now this is one poll I’m all too happy to crash.
I’m an Aspie and I cannot stand the pity and fear mongers disguised as ‘Autism Advocates’.
Win!
I wonder if this is a good thing or bad. It does show very anedcotally (they like that stuff right?) that science is on the side of the sensible one.
[Update: Welcome Scienceblogs readers! Your poll mobbing is indeed impressive.]
PZ you need to start putting ‘nofollow’ on the links.
Hank @ # 81: EXPELLED (aka Excreted) is soon to be on DVD…
They must have finalized the box before Ebert offered them his recent quotemine.
The packaging (in the promo from the American Family Ass’n™, which by blessed coincidence sells said DVD) shows the traditional plug on the cover:
It’s credited to (well, who else?) … Ben Stein.
I couldn’t vote. I really am torn, I don’t know what to think about the vaccine/autism debate. I’m waiting to see what Winona Ryder has to say about it before I decide. I trust Winona, she’s gorgeouser than the other two.
Voted.
Amanda Peet (97%)
Jenny McCarthy (3%)
Total Votes: 2,830
‘That was me before I had autism in my life,’ and until she walks in our shoes, she really has no idea.”
Well dang, I’ve had friends and family with cancer. I guess that makes me an oncologist now.
O.T., Sarah Palin says being gay is a choice:
“I have one of my absolute best friends for the last 30 years happens to be gay, and I love her dearly. And she is not my “gay friend,” she is one of my best friends, who happens to have made a choice that isn’t a choice that I have made. But I am not going to judge people.”
Nice refutation of this stupidity:
My sister has kyphoscoliosis, that doesn’t make me an expert. Reading tons upon tons of research also doesn’t make me an expert on it, it just makes me more informed. Reading something you found on the internet from a “Dr. Anas” doesn’t make you informed, it makes you gullible.
So sexual orientation is a choice now? I suppose when you’re already convinced
your god is nice and made them heterosexual and they chose to be otherwise and thereby subject themselves to the eternal torment and early death by murder your neolithic superstition directs for said sexual orientationit’s a choice before you see the evidence which contradicts that view, I suppose the cognitive dissonance would finally get the better of you…I am going to ask a favor of you guys and gals. Please don’t use the term “retard”. You see, my son has Down syndrome and there are people who think it is funny to use that word to describe him. McCarthy is a horse’s ass. She is an ignorant butt head. But please avoid the r-word. Every time I read it it’s like a little stab in the heart. To us in the disabled community it hurts like the n-word hurts. Thanks.
Those Dilberts posts are fucking painful. I’m sorry I even asked.
It would appear that Jenny McCarthy’s mob is tiny and insignificant compared to reality’s mob.
Just voted. The score is now Amanda 97%, Jenny 3% with 3K some votes cast.
On another matter, check out this hilarious exchange when Bill Maher appeared on The View earlier today: ‘Sherri Shepherd, whose devout religious beliefs have provided fodder for the show before, asked, “When you did this movie, you talked to a lot of people about God — have you ever just talked to God, and asked God what does he think?’
When Maher asked Sherri if God ever answered her, and she said that he did, Maher said: ‘Well then we should call Bellevue.’ Bellevue is a New York hospital known for its psychiatric facilities.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/30/sherri-shepherd-bill-mahe_n_130581.html
Well, if we’re sharing stupidity, check out the latest, greatest Sarah Palin video.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/Media/Play/33323/1/CBS-Palin-Newspapers.wmv/
just in case you’re wondering:
“Some families of children with autism believed that thimerosal might have caused autism, but numerous scientific studies conducted in the past 10 years have shown that thimerosal does not cause autism. Other families and one gastroenterologist falsely believed and promoted the idea that MMR might cause autism.
Ironically, Halsey says, “the MMR vaccine can prevent the very infection, rubella, that science does link to autism. When rubella infects a pregnant woman, the unborn child gets infected and often suffers severe neurologic damage, including autism in some children. Just as people should not be misled by promises of cures from fake medicine, we should not mislead people with false villains to blame when unexpected illness occurs.” ”
“”The CDC recently announced that we have had more cases of measles in the United States this year than in any year in the past decade. Many of the children who developed measles had not been vaccinated because of false concerns about vaccine safety.””
from: http://www.hopkinschildrens.org/researchDetail.aspx?id=5268
last time I checked: 97/3
By the way..I really loved the special message to us “Pharynguloids”
IF you get CBC: “Religulous” (Religious/Ridiculous) actors? producers? are on The Hour tonight! 11-12 Eastern Time: Larry Charles and Bill Maher.
craig @108
She reads ALL of them, huh? I doubt she’s picked up Nature, National Geographic, Scientific American, or Science except maybe to get the latest copy of People or Entertainment Weekly…
George Stomboulopoulos pronounces “Maher” as “Marr” – is that right?
The Hour
Link to video
I came, I saw, I voted, 97% for the good guys, 3% for the fools at 3000+ votes so far, I also commented as a father with a son diagnosed with an autistic spectrum disorder (Aspergers Syndrome, and every time I turn the TV on lately I see someone trying to portray an Aspy, what gives, it Aspergers the flavour of the month or something)I also pointed to some of the latest research that could indicate that Testosterone has more of a role to play in Autism http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/7417.php
Maybe if Jenny McCarthy didn’t have such big balls she wouldn’t have this problem (my wife and I often joke that she has bigger balls than me, so before anyone starts down that track, get a grip)
#112 Yes, that’s right.
Posted by: mellowjohn
peet way up, and besides – she looks better naked.
Links please
Could be the poll calculator has saturated.
I will begin with a common adage…Too much of a good thing can be a bad thing.
I accept that vaccinations are good science and a benefit to humanity and I personally do not believe that vaccinations are bad. I do have concerns that the current schedule of vaccines is detrimental to children. You might think it is because of thimerosal, but it is not. Although thimerosal presents itself as the likely candidate as it has been shown to activate autism in those children already genetically predisposed to have it (as per the CDC). In other words, thimerosal can activate autism in children. I know they do not based on their current sample of studies have any evidence that thimerosal can cause autism.
I have reviewed the statistics presented by the CDC and the IDEA. You can review the stats for yourself and the schedule of vaccines here:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/stats-surv/nis/data/articles.htm#94
This link below from the CDC links to the IDEA for their Autism stats:
http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/faq_prevalence.htm
You can follow the link under the references to get the raw data.
I will summarize the information as I found it.
In 1994, the national average for vaccination was 75% of those sampled received immunizations. The schedule only included 5 vaccinations (DTP, Polio, Flu, Measles and Hep B)
By 2005, the the average had reached over 80% nationally. An increase but I will not say too much of one but an increase none the less on the percentages. The key increase was the number of vaccines had increased to 7 (DTP, Polio, Flu, Measles, Varicella, PCV, and Hep B)
Now these seem small until you understand the number of vaccinations per vaccine that were injected. The number of doses had increased across the board for all these immunizations.
*Also along with this increase does not include the other vaccines that were administered that are not covered by this study. (I am still looking for a reliable listing to link to support this list but I am working on anecdotal evidence to support that comment.)
If you look through the information, you will see a steady increase of vaccinations from 1994 – 2004.
In contrast to this information is the steady increase of the number of cases of autism over the same period. In 1994 the cases of Autism being reported was 1 in 10000. The current number as reported by the CDC is 1 in 150 (or 66 in 10000) Please note that the CDC states the 1 in 150 is for 8 year olds, but it does believe this number to be an overall representation of the whole with variations over and under based on the area of the country the individual is located.
I invite you to look over the state data and you will find a general correlation to the number of vaccines with the number of cases of Autism.
I think based on this, a review should be done to adjust the vaccination schedule. Also they should review a possibility of interaction between the vaccines that may cause some unknown effect that results in Autism.
In relation to the Amish community. This is based on an Article written by Dan Olmstead. It can be considered very unscientific. Many of the Amish children with Autism would not necessarily be reported in any studies as they usually will handle the children within their community and forego any medical assistance. Also, the Amish have a similar disease unique to their inbreeding that can be hide reports of autism as they have similar effects. Overall there rate is closer to the rates the general population experienced in 1994. Also the Amish do now get vaccinations but on a modified schedule.
So overall, I am left with a concern that something is fishy in Denmark, and a scientific review is called for based on the statistical data.
My vote is for Jenny McCarthy…this is the same Jenny that posed for Playboy right? I would like to something to be reviewed and sometimes you need extremist to get to the middle…
@117
Perhaps you should read up a bit on confirmation bias. Also, the rates of many diseases have gone up considerably and due to a lack of evidence, it is likely this is due to better diagnoses than increase in prevalence. When we get better data, make the call, until then, the data points to “no link to vaccines” unless you are talking about risk of death by childhood disease, in that case, vaccines are extremely linked to a lower death rate.
I too have a kid with autism, and so by McCarthy logic I’m allowed to speak on this subject.
Jenny McCarthy, you’re a moron. Amanda Peet was right.
I am familiar with confirmation bias and I will admit it is possible here. I cannot deny that fact.
I can agree also to the fact that better diagnosis also plays a part, but as of yet there has been no studies to confirm that the increase relates to better diagnosis. What I would like to see is studies that can define and explain these increases. I am very willing to admit they can be explained but ignoring these numbers because vaccines are good and therefore all vaccines are good is not good enough. the studies performed to date including the MMR study which are very good do indicate that each one of these vaccines on their own are good. It is the combination and frequency that I am saying that needs study. the data right now points to some correlation unless we can identify the cause of autism or the increase in the rate can be defined to be related to something other than the vaccinations.
I also will note that although the comparison to these two areas have a correlation, it may be some other item that may be contributing to autism, such as, for example only, the percentage of fluoride or arsenic in the drinking water that may also have the same statistical correlation. the problem is that these studies have not been published.
I will also accept those results and be happier for knowing the facts.
AK47 #119,
Me too and I agree.
:)
McCarthy was on CTV news this morning. She says she’s not opposed to vaccinations – just to the intense protocols used today.
She also claims her child has recovered from autism through diet, etc.
She’s entitled to her opinion, especially since she wasn’t saying don’t vaccinate – just be careful about it, much as vets are recommending for our pets these days.
It’s been tried.
Next.
@117
Thimerasol is an antimicrobial preservative that was used in multi-dose vaccines. Note the past tense; thimerasol has not been used in the regular childhood vaccines for a number of years. The Poling case involved a mitochondrial disorder that was potentially aggravated by immunological inflammation. The evidentiary hurdle for the vaccine compensation board is practically non-existent. It was not an autism case.
So, you paraded out that shabby straw man for the fun of it?
That’s very nice, Nancy Drew.
Let me remind you that correlation is not causation, lest we fear the dwindling number of pirates and their influence on average global temperature. What’s the R2 on that correlation since you’re playing statistician today?
Do you honestly think that the vaccine schedule was established without thought or review?
Because the 20+ peer-reviewed studies finding no link between autism and vaccines just isn’t enough to drive the point home to you, you want to waste more research funds beating on a long dead horse.
I fixed that for you.
Your concern regarding your “not quite high school level” statistical analysis has been noted.
It is often easier to place the round peg in the round hole rather then beating it through the square hole with a hammer.
Correlation doesn’t equal causation.
You could just as well say that global warming/any other changing factor is linked to the autism, unless otherwise proven not to… then go on to say that other correlations, or things that explain the correlation aren’t proven yet…
To #124 Mike R
Very good response.
In reference to Thimerosal I would point you to the FDA’s report.
http://www.fda.gov/CBER/vaccine/thimerosal.htm
It is still being used in trace amounts. in the Influenza vaccine for children. and for vaccine for those those over the age of 6. I do not state that it is the cause. I do not know…I just wanted to be sure to mention it and to point out that because of its nature it would seem like it, but I am not advocating that it is and in fact, I doubt that it is.
I love the correction to my comment on Dan Olmstead…
Please understand that I am not a right wing nut case. I am trying to be as impartial as I can be. I have come from a position that was the extreme non-immunization side of the case and have eliminated a great deal of the arguments from that side as bogus. I figured by posting my current viewpoint here I would get the needed critical response to challenge my position and I thank you for your review.
I will refer to my post # 120 in response to the rest.
Again thanks.
You must not have tried very hard. Newschaffer et al. (2007) came to that very conclusion in a paper entitled “The epidemiology of autism spectrum disorders” in Annual Review of Public Health. Although, Rutter (2005) beat them to that conclusion in a paper entitled “Incidence of autism spectrum disorders: change over time and their meaning” in Acta Paediatrica. You should try out PubMed.
That’s the second one that I have fixed for you.
And, it has been millions of times. If the schedule were the problem, those who deviate from the schedule would show the difference. Remember the Amish that you paraded out previously? They don’t follow the usual schedule, yet autism spectrum disorders still happen.
You’re still failing basic statistics. A correlation does not imply causation.
This is where you should have stopped.
So, you’ve gone from I think that I can see a correlation by staring at survey numbers to I think that there are correlations regarding [insert random ion]. That’s some fancy logical gymnastics there.
Could it be that as part of proposing a study, you have to have some basis for the methodology and I have this really awesome hunch just doesn’t work?
Accepting only the evidence that you want to see is the road to conformational bias.
Phoesune said “In relation to the Amish community. This is based on an Article written by Dan Olmstead. It can be considered very unscientific…”
First off, it is spelled “Olmsted”. And second, the man claimed to have gone to Lancaster, PA, but never bothered to visit a clinic there dedicated to the care and research of the Amish (it is called the “Clinic for Special Children”). He only learned of it after his first article was written, and when he finally called them they refused to talk to him because they knew that he was not an impartial reporter, but one with an agenda… an agenda that does not include facts. See:
http://autism-news-beat.com/?p=29
And you also said “In contrast to this information is the steady increase of the number of cases of autism over the same period. In 1994 the cases of Autism being reported was 1 in 10000. The current number as reported by the CDC is 1 in 150 (or 66 in 10000) Please note that the CDC states the 1 in 150 is for 8 year olds, but it does believe this number to be an overall representation of the whole with variations over and under based on the area of the country the individual is located.”
Do you realize that 1994 is also the year that the DEFINITION of autism changed? Do you not think that might have an effect?
I have a child who was diagnosed with oral motor dyspraxia in 1992, but not autism. The high school psychologist suggest he might actually have Asperger’s with the more recent standards, but she was not qualified to diagnose him.
Anyway, never mind that… just give us the actual scientific evidence (real papers that I can find at my local medical school library, not anecdotes from news sources or random websites) that the MMR is worse than measles (which has a 1 in 1000 chance of real death, and a 1 in 5000 chance of severe neuro-damage to the others who survive), mumps (which tends to cause deafness and/or sterility), and rubella. Or at least the real actual factual scientific evidence that the DTaP is worse than diphtheria, pertussis (which kills over a dozen American babies each year) and tetanus (which emits two toxins, that tend to kill one out of ten who get it, and there is no such thing as “herd immunity” for tetanus).
Come on… this is SCIENCEblogs… show us your science!
@124
The average age at formal diagnosis in the US is 61 months.
Well, it’s not. If thimerasol were the culprit, autism would have a very small incidence rate now.
Chemical names can do that. Ethyl-mercury (the type found in thimerasol) is actually rather short lived. The half-life in infants is a little less than 4 days.
I realized that you are trying to play the middle ground.
That’s somewhat of the problem. Science is about the evidence. Some ideas are simply wrong.
That’s one way to do it, but trying to disprove all competing ideas is the long way to go about it. A simpler approach would be to follow the evidence to the positive conclusion, such as autism is not a single disorder but rather a spectrum of varied but similar neurological disorders and that these disorders have a major genetic component that must be factored in before any single cause can be considered.
Posting here is definitely a way to get a quick critical response; you just have to have skin think enough to handle the critical part.
#127 Mike R
I think your second fix is incorrect =). You underestimate my ability to admit when I am wrong.
I will review the report and thank you for providing it.
The Amish comment was to point out that nothing could be derived from reviewing them. I didn’t intend to put them forth as a defense of anything.
The comment regarding the fluoride was an attempt to indicate the absurdity of pointing out my correlation is causation statement.
Hopefully, the report you provided answers my question. I just want to make clear my position because from your response I do not think I came across correctly.
I am not saying that vaccines are the cause of autism. My view up to this point was that there has been a rise in Autism since 1994 to the tune of 66 times more reported cases. I feel that studies should be done to identify the reasons for the increases. As far as my research into the subject, so far, I could only find one area of correlation where there was sufficient data to have a correlation. I did consider diagnosis as a potential cause but could not find data. If the report you provided or others from that site or PubMed has that information then I will abandon any connection to vaccinations.
I went through a lot of stuff already debunking the other junk I used to believe about this. So I can and will accept good scientific evidence as valid. I mean two weeks ago, I abandoned religion because of the evidence. So (don’t) give me a break!!! =P
I have a son with autism. According to Jenny McCarthy this qualifies me to have an opinion. I’m with Amanda Peet on this one. Jenny McCarthy just pisses me off. I’ve said so before.
As pointed out by HCN
Do you realize that 1994 is also the year that the DEFINITION of autism changed? Do you not think that might have an effect?
to HCN #128
This is the reason I came here. I knew I could be directed to the right resources as I had pretty much reached my end as my search seems to have been focused on the wrong side of the problem. It’s hard to find the cause, if your looking in the wrong area. Also, this discussion will help greatly in dealing with others in my family that are dead set against vaccinations.
to Mike R #129
I have a thick skin so don’t worry. I did learn one thing from this…start out by stating my intentions before posting. I think I should have begun with “Help me out here.” instead of sounding so dogmatic and psuper-psuedo-psientific.
94% to 6% !
Bring back Studio 60!
z
Amanda Peet is now ahead 97 – 3 percent. You’d think the question was “Which one is better looking?”
The long and short of it is,Amanda Peet is a classy intelligent actress,and Jenny McCarthy is a trashy dumb nutcase.
94% to 6% !
Bring back Studio 60! …and in an unrelated theme Firefly.
z
PZ, I can see how hot a topic this is, and I’m really glad you pointed that article out. I hope you’ll plug the ScienceBlogs.com/bookclub which is discussing Autism’s False Prophets starting today (1 Oct).
As for this: “In addition, the national autism advocacy group Autism United is calling for a boycott of all of Amanda Peet’s movies.” I already made the decision to avoid anything with Jim Carrey (which is sad because he’s funny) or Jenny McCarthy (which won’t be a problem, like, I’m sure, y’know?) in it. It’s kind of like how I won’t buy Clear Eyes anymore… >_>
97% to 3%. Where’s your mob now Jenny? Perhaps they are too stupid to use a computer!
Another well-crashed poll.
Perhaps PZ should arrange a proxy button for use in such polls, so that we can swarm off en masse and vote for reason without making it obvious that we’re all coming from the same place ;)
Wow, I thought the vaccines vs autism debate had been well and truly put to bed, I can’t believe it’s picking up steam again. Seems to me to be a classic example of Post hoc ergo propter hoc
How about heading over to Jon Stewarts Forum?
http://forum.thedailyshow.com/tds/board?board.id=13123
People posting stupid stuff because Jon had Bill Maher on last night.
There are proofs of how god created the universe, how Einstein believed in god,… real stupid stuff.
http://forum.thedailyshow.com/tds/board?board.id=13123
The most recent comment on that site is worth noting (and responding to):
“Kate says: As a mother with TWO autistic children, I find McCarthy’s ignorance appalling. Don’t we have enough difficulty in dealing with and understanding the Autism Spectrum without letting fad pseudo-science sway our families away from proper health care for our children?
end of quote.
Hey call me the bitch but sometimes this is what it takes to get it through these people’s heads. Hey Kate! Why don’t you have another child vaccinate it and make it three for three!
The government wouldn’t be making pay outs to people whose children are autistic as a RESULT OF VACCINATIONS.
Good luck with that 3rd child. they say 1 in 100 kids is autistic now. Yet I have hundreds of friends who didn’t immunize their kids and NONE of them are autistic. Imagine that.
But you keep telling yourself that. Go for number 3. 3rd times a charm. I have no sympathy for people who are so stupid they blindly trust the DRUG COMPANIES. Go talk to plenty of scientists AND doctors who disagree with you.
Liz Finn (and yes my uncle is Tom Finn the attorney who helped many people in this country whose children died or fell ill (or became autistic) from Vaccines.
I’m sure we can all think of nice friendly things to say to Liz.
//Seems to me to be a classic example of Post hoc ergo propter hoc//
Not even that,there was Autism going around long before vaccines,with or without mercury,we just didnt call it Autism.
People are just looking for something to put the blame on,which is somewhat understandable.
Percentages haven’t changed from #139, but I particularly liked this update to the poll:
“[Update: Welcome Scienceblogs readers! Your poll mobbing is indeed impressive.]”
Good job, guys. On behalf of autistic people everywhere, thanks for bringing some sense back into a fad nation where this kind of thing could really do a lot of harm to a lot of children.
(Both the ones who aren’t vaccinated because their parents are led astray by this sensationalism, and the ones who are autistic and are given dangerous chelation treatments because “it’s all due to the mercury.”)
Oh,and while we are talking about anti-vaccers :
Bill Maher on The View about Palin:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=N7fv9kTwOuw
Between Phoesune and Caveat I think what this thread needs is heapin’ helpin’ of some (not-so) Respectful Insolence.
Orac is to antivaccinationists as PZ is to creationists.
@ 147
//Orac is to antivaccinationists as PZ is to creationists. //
I disagree.
PZ gets his facts straight most of the time and follows the scientific method.
Can I just say to the RI admirers here,Orac is mostly on the right side of the argument,but facts are not his strongest side.
Peet : 97 %
anti-innoculation butterface autist-phobe: 3%
Poll status: crashed.
Who in their right mind would not innoculate their children? How does McCarthy think innoculation against blights like polio cause autism? As far as I know, autism is a genetic condition, and can not be induced by anything in a siringe.
//As far as I know, autism is a genetic condition, and can not be induced by anything in a siringe.//
Vidar,you dont want to go there,trust me,its one big can of worms.
And AFAIK noone knows whether its genetic or what.
If the Amish have much lower rates of autism, or any other disease, I would look to these 3 factors first, to try to find the reason.
1. Genome. The Amish who keep the culture going tend to marry people who were also raised Amish; if autism (or anything else) has a genetic cause, it may be their limited gene pool had a smaller chance of it going in.
2. Epigenome. Scientists have only fairly recently become aware of the importance of the layer of proteins that cover the outside of DNA. Turns out, they often serve an important regulatory function. The epigenome is effected by the environment to a greater extent than DNA is, and studies have shown a major stressor such as famine can effect the genome for at least 2 generations after. The Amish’s very different lifestyle could have healthier epigenome coding passed down through generations.
3. Environment. Whether a child is vaccinated or not, an Amish child is less likely to drink out of plastic cups, sit close tot he TV, be exposed to volatile chemicals at the gas station, be exposed to strong, artificial cleaning agents… and so on, and so on.
Vaccines have been studied to prove they don’t cause autism. So maybe instead of wasting so much time and energy on re-proving the same old thing, the anti-vaxxers could shut the fuck up and maybe donate money for *other* research that might find something useful.
AAAAARGH! Another half-baked moron spouting the innoculations-cause-autism BAD SCIENCE.
Voted: 97% plays 3%
Where’s your angry mob now?
Phoesune wrote:
Congrats!
We have an angry mob. Argumentum ad baculum. nice.
Can I just say to the RI admirers here,Orac is mostly on the right side of the argument,but facts are not his strongest side.
Citation, please????
I have to say, no poll-crashing has warmed the cockles of my evil little heart the way this one has. It’s at 97% now.
I too tried to vote and was told I had already, and there is no one else here who could have. All I could do was leave a comment suggesting (no, stating) that it was a dishonest poll. I suspect that a certain percent of votes for the pollsters preferred outcome are automatically rejected … or have I joined the ranks of the paranoid?
Welcome to the world of rationality Phoesune and good luck on your journey.
I note that the site in question has a link back to Pharyngula and a comment that our poll mobbing is truly impressive. Hey – they wanted opinions, they got them. As for innoculation causing the condition – no evidence that withstands any examination. Further, autism seems to be rather poorly defined, making it difficult to get a real estimate of the rate of occurence past and present.
Carlie,@ 155 :
Im watching Indy4 right now and cannot possibly be bothered to go through years of blog posts.I know,its not a good excuse…..
Lets just say he has a tendency to talk numbers up(or down)when needed to make a point.
Sometimes people just need someone to blame for the bad shit in their lives. It’s easy to throw all of the blame on vaccinations because really, what else CAN they get angry at for ‘causing’ autism? Even if there is no proof of a link, it still makes it easier for some people if they can point a finger and do their two minutes hate.
When we lost our son in the NICU at 11 days after birth, we had to keep coming back to that same NICU where his brother and sister were still being kept in isolettes. I had no problem accepting that somethings bad things happen, and it was really nobody’s “fault” that my babies arrived 14 weeks early and one of them didn’t make it. I knew going into it that a triplet pregnancy was inherently risky and we may have a bad outcome – or maybe not.
My husband wasn’t prepared for that bad outcome at all. He hadn’t rationally considered the odds of having three healthy full-term babies (33 weeks would have been considered term for triplets). He was having a really hard time dealing with it until he found someone to blame for the situation. There was a picture of the NICU founder on the wall, and I told him if he needed to hate and blame someone, why not that guy? The guy was long-dead or retired, but it made a good object for my husband’s anger. He was able to deal with it a little better once he had a focus for the blame. Silly, but I can’t deny that it helped him deal with a very long and difficult time in our lives.
Heather,
very well said.Sorry for your loss ! NICUs can be tough places.
Phoesune spake thusly:
Well, I’m glad you found it and that you have a thick enough skin.
If you want some reading on thimerosal and vaccines in infants, there was a 2008 paper on the subject:
M. E. Pichichero, A. Gentile, N. Giglio, V. Umido, T. Clarkson, E. Cernichiari, G. Zareba, C. Gotelli, M. Gotelli, L. Yan and J. Treanor (2008). Mercury Levels in Newborns and Infants After Receipt of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines. Pediatrics 2008;121;e208-e214
and here’s one on vaccines and autism:
S. K. Parker, B. Schwartz, J. Todd and L. K. Pickering (2004).
Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines and Autistic Spectrum Disorder: A Critical Review of Published Original Data. Pediatrics 2004;114;793-804.
There is plenty of evidence against autism-vaccine links, and while I won’t state that all vaccines are worth having for all people, for the most part there’s some solid epidemiology underlying their use.
The only thing this post tells me (anti-vax parent, family of 5 injured) is just how DESPERATE you doctors and scientists are getting about keeping your beloved Vaccine Program in place. I have one word of advice for you – move to a communist country so that you may live under an extreme dictatorship where your services for the “greater good” will be appreciated. This kind of herd immunity mentality may be compared to the works of Hitler – in his own mind, his criminal acts were for the greater good of mankind.
Phoesune wrote:
“two weeks ago, I abandoned religion because of the evidence.”
I’m pretty pleased and impressed. I also found your arguments in your original post well thought out and worthy of discussion. The subsequent posts proved comprehensive (congrats fellow pharguloids) seemed to address many of the concerns raised. Thick skin is essential, but it is well worth hanging on.
Mandydax (#138) – I like the look of your blog – especially the link to Christie MacAuliffe’s missing lessons. I will try to call back to your blog again
Ugh,
My favorite morning radio show here in Atlanta is having Jenny McCarthy on at 9:30 this morning to talk about this little snit. One of the hosts actually had the nerve to call her stance “courageous.” So ridiculous, giving that woman a platform from which to shout her garbage is insane.
Damn, Godwin in a vaccination thread! Well done, Dawn!
Hey, this “greater good” you speak of… yeah, gassing Jews and millions of actually saved babies, same thing.
If the angry autism anti-vax mob gets on Amanda Peet’s case, can we call it McCarthyism?
Oh oh… Dawn’s here. Everyone type slowly, she doesn’t read too well.
Hey Dawn, you wouldn’t happen to frequent Today’s Parent would you? I’ve run into a few anti-vax morons there that argue about as cogently as you do.
Dawn: Once you can demonstrate the link with something other than anecdotes, I’ll be glad to read the scientific article.
I truly hope that not vaccinating doesn’t hurt your family, or those around it. I would hate to hear that someone’s ignorance had caused others harm.
Then you haven’t learned anything. To bad, really. However, you’ve made up your mind about something without looking at the hard evidence in place, preferring to believe in anecdotal evidence and allowing yourself to be led by your emotions. You won’t get much sympathy here when you do that.
Also, please look up Godwin’s law. Save the Hitler comments for when the topic is Hitler and/or the Nazis.
For Dawn, Public Health = Nazism.
Nice.
Dawn, do you dump the contents your family’s chamberpots into the local reservoir? Because, you know, public sewage and water treatment are just forms of genocidal Fascism.
Pahryngula’s angry mob > Ditzy’s angry mob
What do we win???
Wow, I think there’s some counter mobbing of said poll – it rose from 3% to 5% support.
Perhaps we need to push a few more over there to vote.
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Hey Sven,
I was thinking of you yesterday! I had lunch in a little dive in Cambridge, and guess what were on the menu.
.
.
.
Frappes!
I had no one to chuckle with.
This just in. When I voted the page re-loaded with the following update at the bottom:
“[Update: Welcome Scienceblogs readers! Your poll mobbing is indeed impressive.]”
High praise for us.
Actually, yes it does appear to be a myth, as far as can be determined. I’ll give a little wiggle room in that the Amish are notoriously hard to study and it’s hard to get good prevalence data, but that difficulty cuts both ways: There’s no way you–or anyone else–can say with such confidence that the Amish definitely have lower rates of autism.
Of course, even if they did, it wouldn’t be particularly good evidence that vaccines cause autism. After all, why does it have to be the vaccines? The Amish are inbred, eschew most modern technology and conveniences, and live a pastoral lifestyle. There are so many confounding factors there that could explain such a difference, if it exists, in particular the inbred population given that autism has a large genetic/biological component. But to antivaccinationists, it always absolutely, positively has to be The Evil Vaccines That Done It! There could be hundreds of other possible genetic or environmental factors that could potentially explain differences in autism prevalence, but the antivaccine loon doesn’t even consider all the other possibilities and instead zeros right in on vaccines. Because to antivaccine nuts, it is always the vaccines. Always.
As for the resurgence of the whole Jenny McCarthy vs. Amanda Peet thing, I tried very hard not to blog about it, but with PZ bringing it up I don’t know if that will be possible any longer. Thanks a lot, PZ.
There’s an interesting article that traces the history of the erroneous Thermosal=>autism link. It turns out the guy who started it, Andrew Wakefield, had a conflict of interest. He also has had his research results debunked. The Lancet and other publications (such as salon.com) have retracted his paper or issued retractions on stories about autism (respectively).
Here’s my favorite quote:
A lie travels halfway around the world before the truth can put its boots on. — Winston Churchill.
Here’s the salon article:
Inside the vaccine and autism scare
Orac,
I could certainly be wrong, I’m not a scientist and can only go by what I’ve read here and there. However, it does at least seem the Amish have slightly lower rates of Autism.
That said, I’m with you 100% as far as your observations about all the variables that would need to be looked at and data sifted through to deduce why they have lower numbers. Those that have the default “vaccinationsdidit” mentality are idiots.
Orac (again),
I shouldn’t have said “much lower rates” that was a mistake.
Anyway, you are all wrong since it is cow milk that causes autism (and cancer, ear infections…) according the marvelously intelligent PETA :
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/09/peta_even_more_impossible_to_parody_than.php?utm_source=mostactive&utm_medium=link
Hehe… that gave me my morning giggle.
Amanda Peet? Yes please. Always preferred brunettes anyway.
Careful, SC. I suspect that frappes cause autism. Or at least activate it. Somehow.
By the way, the clowns over at Age of Autism are trying to match their puny power against the might of the Pharynguloid hordes:
http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/10/vote-for-jenn-1.html
Heh. Perhaps PZ should unleash his hordes on AoA. :-)
Holy crap, Dawn’s here. Anyone who would like to witness the absolute insanity that is Dawn would do well to check out Orac’s posts about vaccination from August.
Phoesune, another factor you should consider is that as autism diagnoses have risen, diagnoses for mental retardation have fallen. Autism Diva discusses one study here: http://autismdiva.blogspot.com/2006/10/autistic-to-be-specific.html, and I think Prometheus has also blogged about it but I can’t find the post right now.
From the linked post:
For anyone too lazy to do the arithmetic, the increase in autistics was 9.1 per 10,000, while the simultaneous decrease in children with mental retardation was 9.3 per 10,000.
I’m sure some of you have read cectic, but for the others…
Is Jenny McCarthy the Y.A.P.?
Wow, this whole thing sound familiar. It is like they just cut and pasted the words “autism” and “vaccine” over “evolution” and “creationism”. Argument from special knowledge, check, arguement from popularity, check, arguement from junk science check.
There is an increasing number of commenters at that site promoting the vaccine link. Perhaps people should go over there again and explain?
Over 6300 when I voted, 96 : 4.
(obligatory link added)
Yes, and the world is soon to end. I’m not sure which is going to come first.
True blondness comes from within.
You mean you don’t open polls in a new tab? For me that’s always more convenient than going back and forth in the same one.
Oh, btw Orac – I liked your article thanking Jenny. I’d never read your stuff before, but consider me a reader now :)
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/health/2008/10/01/intv.mccarthy.cnn
WHY! Why do they keep giving her a voice on this shit. Listen to the way they phrase the questions… “Why do you think they are reluctant to talk about a link?” Not “Why do you continue to insist on a link when all of the observed data shows otherwise?” or “What evidence can you provide to show that it was the vaccines and not some other factor that caused your son’s autism?”. They just jump straight in and hand her a platform to spew her garbage from.
Yeah, you are damn straight us “anti-vax” are not going to shut up. I blame you doctors, nurses, scientists, etc for harming my family. Yes, I do compare your works to that of Hitler because he had an agenda…what was it? A “super race” – nobody could stand in his way. The weak (in his eyes) shall be exterminated. It is EXACTLY like the Vaccine Program. Even if ONE PERSON (we all know it is a lot more than that) died from a vaccine, what gives you the right to try to play God? Any people that sadly die from vaccines are worth it because it is for the greater good? What the hell planet are you from?
Orac even stated how bogus and seriously flawed VAERS is!! Someone reported that they turned into Hulk and it was put on record? Hello? That means that we have NO system of checks and balances and the only individuals responsible for making sure vaccines are safe are Big Pharm themselves?! Again, Vioxx, Heparin, and Paxil scandals…
Ah, Dawn. She’s given us such gems as
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/08/thanks_again_jenny_mccarthy_and_andrew_wakefield.php#comment-1064767
I’m sure that one will sparkle in my memory for some time to come.
IP address vote lockout on http://www.ecorazzi.com/? I voted on my computer, told my wife who looked on her computer, but the vote totals were already showing and she could not vote. I checked on my other browser and it too showed the totals. This was around 3500 votes.
Dawn is being hysterical again.
Uh, no, I said nothing of the sort. VAERS is flawed as a means of doing longitudinal studies of prevalence because it is so easily manipulated. But that’s not its purpose, anyway. Its purpose is as a “canary in the coalmine,” where anyone can report anything they believe to be a vaccine reaction. The problem is, even as an early warning system, it’s been corrupted and coopted by antivaccine loons and trial lawyers, who urge parents to report every case of autism as a vaccine injury. Even aside from that, any time there’s publicity about vaccines, there’s a wave of new reports. It takes careful epidemiology to determine if reports to VAERS represent a real phenomenon, and that careful epidemiology shows no link between vaccines and autism. None. Nada. Zip.
Also, we do have another system of checks. It’s called the Vaccine Safety Datalink. It’s a lot more rigorous (only physicians and health care professionals can enter cases). It is also more suitable for longitudinal studies. Studies based on the VSD have also failed to find any link between vaccines and autism.
Oskar @ 167
Pure win!
I try to use the killfile sparingly; really, I do. But Dawn has just been treated to a well-earned place on the kill list. Still, in response to the last of her comments I will ever read:
Seriously, Dawn: if your brain really equates genocide as a means to purify a Master Race with vaccination to prevent the spread of potentially deadly communicable diseases, there is something really, really wrong with it.
If even one person dies as a result of vaccination, then the entire public health system should be dismantled?
Do you, like, drive on highways?
Have you not noticed the medium that you are using to state that?
Play God?
But, seriously, I noticed that you didn’t even mention the lives saved. Polio mostly eradicated (except in portions of the world where people are afraid of vaccines. Imagine that), smallpox eradicated, measles, mumps and rubella all but unheard of in the states. You would seek to undermine all of this progress in your anti-scientific vendetta. What is your reasoning?
“What is your reasoning?”
It’s selfishness.
I have mentioned this elsewhere, the choice to not vaccinate is not a “personal” decision, any more is the decision to drink and drive. By not vaccinating, it’s not just your child who is at risk, it also puts MY child at risk by providing a vehicle for the re-emergence of disease. As such, I have a stake in your decision, as does everyone in our society. Your decision to not vaccinate puts US at risk.
So it’s not all about them, no matter how much they think it is.
Oh awesome. Dawn is here.
The level of logic and honesty in this thread just plummeted quicker than the stock market on Monday.
Even if ONE PERSON became dumber (and we all know it is more than that) from reading your rants, what gives you the right to play the false Saviour and victim concurrently. All the people you dupe into believing your sewage laden trail of distortion and falsehoods are worth it because it makes you feel better about having someone to blame?
How about all the people your falsehoods and lies will cause to become ill and die from contracting diseases that they would never get had they and the people around them been properly vaccinated?
Dawn once again proves the adage that “…a lie can be halfway around the world before the truth can get its boots on.”
I’m not saying that Dawn is lying – she doesn’t strike me as someone who has the requisite abilities. No, but Dawn has bought the lie that others have told and is – as is the nature of parrots – endlessly repeating it.
For a true conspiracy believer like Dawn, there is no contradictory data that isn’t forged, no opposing viewpoints that aren’t bought and paid for and no criticism that isn’t further evidence of how wide the conspiracy has spread.
By now, a significant fraction of the US population must be “in” on the conspiracy. I wonder when they’ll get around to using their mind-control device on Dawn?
I hope it’s soon.
Prometheus
Though I haven’t bothered to blog about it yet, I got spam from Autism United asking me to boycott Peet’s movies.
So not only are they ferociously uninformed about the lack of an autism link in vaccines, and the risk the trend of unvaccinated kids is to other kids, but they’re dirty rotten SPAMMERS.
Ahh I see SC has covered this, and much more eloquently :)
If by ‘like’ you mean ‘opposite to,’ sure. Vaccination protects everyone. The anti-vax movement will lead to everyone being exposed to endemic viruses like the measles, and let the weak, the young, the old, and the immunocompromised take their chances.
So not only are they ferociously uninformed about the lack of an autism link in vaccines, and the risk the trend of unvaccinated kids is to other kids, but they’re dirty rotten SPAMMERS.
I assume that’s meant to be ironic given that this comment is on a thread post whose entire purpose is to spam-bomb a poll into irrelvance? Which is in itself ironic given that this is taking place on a science-blog which – you’d think – would be interested in keeping a survey as honest and unmodified as possible.
Wow that was interesting.
Polls which ASK you to vote on them vs. email addresses not requesting your interaction.
Yes the same thing exactly Matt.
Internet polls are inherently flawed by their nature. If someone puts a poll on the internet for the purpose of having people on the internet vote on it. And people on the internet vote on it, that is dishonest or ironic?
Dawn you said
Teh woot? Your stooopid burns me at a rate close to that of fundagelicals.
Are you really comparing the vaccination program to Hitler? You think that vaccines are going to lead to a race of “super people”? My kids think i’m “super” and they have had vaccinations. There is link and causality there! You’re onto something.
Sheesh. Maybe we should just give up vaccinating our children. We can let all sorts of bugs take over and start the elimination of the human race.
I am sure a case of smallpox would be a pleasant gift to give or receive during Christmas.
I am sure that due to your psychosis that you are ready to move to areas of our planet where there are no vaccination programs….right?
I see none of you nitwits can present a decent argument so you have to start calling a woman names. Bunch of faggots.
John Best -hopefully, not the one I know from Va-said
Best unintentional ironic zinger of the day.
@John Worst #210
I see none of you nitwits can present a decent argument so you have to start calling a woman names. Bunch of faggots.
Funny. Following your link back to your sorry-ass excuse for blog reveals not merely name-calling and fallacious arguments that far exceed the most earnest attempts at parody seen here, but a measure of masturbatory hate-mongering that makes many right-wing blogs seem like journals of rational discourse.
OH fuck. Who left the door open.
John Best is here.
@130 … “My view up to this point was that there has been a rise in Autism since 1994 to the tune of 66 times more reported cases.
Yes, and there was a thousand-fold rise in the reported cases of Legionnaire’s disease between 1977 and 1987 … because they had a way of diagnosing it. It went from being hidden in the vague cloud of “pneumonia of unknown origin” to a bacterial disease.
In 1994 autism got some concrete diagnostic signs … and it moved out of the vague cloud of “childhood schizophrenia”and “mentally retarded” into it’s own niche. No increase in incidence needed, just better labeling. BTW, childhood schizophrenia is almost gone now, and the decrease in “mentally retarded” just about compensates for the increase in autism spectrum diagnosis.
These things can go the other way: My epidemiology professor cited a southern state where the reported cases fo “malaria” dropped from thousands to ZERO between one year and the next. The only thing that changed was the diagnostic criteria … to report malaria you had to have a laboratory confirmed sighting of the parasite in a blood smear, not just a fever.
Eric,
There’s not much point in arguing with you queers during your little circle jerk here. All you idiots need to know is that your grade school stabs at propaganda won’t stop us fathers of autistic kids from curing them.
I see you’re also stupid enough to think there is a difference between left wing and right wing ideology. We independents never consider aligning with either group of morons. I wonder what you queers would say if were men and had children of your own.
John “Mr. Loon” Best: you couldn’t cure a ham, much less autism. And your puerile insults do nothing to advance your cause.
Johnny, tell us more about queers.
keep going, it’s hilarious.
OK, not that he deserves it, but John, have you read the comments from parents of actual autistic children who support science? If being a parent of an autistic child was authority enough on the truth, why should we listen to you rather than them? Provide an argument there. (I don’t expect one.)
The real argument, of course, is that that’s not an argument at all. For or against, personal experience is nothing. Your or my suffering, I’m very sorry, means nothing. The truth is the truth and that’s it. The difference is that those other parents have actually looked at evidence, and made an informed (and smart) decision.
Sure, I’ll tell you fags more about yourselves. You see, men would never come out with all of this bullshit that hurts children. Men protect children while queers like you go around behind pseudonyms trying to hurt them. That’s why I can state my name here and most of you queers are afraid to do that. You’re afraid men like myself will hunt you down and beat the hell out of you for propagating lies that hurt our kids.
Have any of you jerks met a kid who was cured of autism? I have, biomedical treatments give these poor kids their lives back. You queers are hurting severely disabled kids with your lies and you think it’s funny. You’re all pathetic.
Tell us about a woman’s place next.
Mr Best: you seem to be flinging around accusations of homosexuality as if it were an insult. It isn’t, nor is it a reasonable excuse for hunting someone down and “beating the hell” out of them. But it does tell me a lot about you, and it’s telling me that you are the kind of thick-skulled bigot we don’t want around here. Clean up your act, or you’ll be gone.
You’re a crank and a liar, and I’ll happily accept any excuse you might give me to throw your tightly clamped sphincter into the dungeon.
Oh now PZ, Mr. best has cured his kid of Autism and anyone who doesn’t accept his anecdotal evidence along with Ms McCarthy is a flaming homosexual out to destroy children. And if you are a Woman, you need to shut up.
He’s just Speaking the facts man.
I’m gonna go beat some queer and make myself a man. Thanks for the suggestion, Best!
Damnit, is Dawn gonna start crashing in on all my favourite blogs now?
Trebuchet & chamber pots ready, Sir!
Myers, you call yourself a scientist, yuh right. Do scientists run around the internet slinging bogus nonsense about a nightmare like autism that could prevent parents from learning how to help these kids.
Do you have kids? How would you like to watch your kid smash about 20 holes in the walls of your house with his head? Would you like to watch your kid smear feces all over himself and everyplace else every time he defecated? Would you like hearing your kid scream all day long from pain of constipation and have some ER doctor tell you he won’t treeat autism, not even to address the chronic constipation or what ever other pain the kid has that also makes him bite his arms until he bleeds?
I went through all of that for a long time, years, before I was able to start chelation. All of that behavior and the constipation is long gone now. Chelation works because we identified the cause and removed it. I’m not done trying to repair the damage that was done to my son’s brain but I got rid of the worst part of the autism. Why do you and your followers want to deny this to children?
You got one thing right, hunting down queers is not what I said. I only want to hunt down people who lie about autism because I don’t like watching children suffer needlessly. There’s nothing funny about it.
Quote from johnny
PZ you sure do know how to amuse the Ilk. That Best is a howler!
And for one more record, he loves the cock!
All the trappings of True Believer(TM). Lots of venom and noise, but no substance. If he wants us to listen, try a few references to refereed journal articles.
Your choice of pictures for the two actresses illustrates your editorial bias in favor of Big Pharma.
Quick tangent, as this whole thing got me thinking and my fiance and I are expecting our sprog in March, could somebody point me to some of the current research on autism?
Actually, I’d rather have an autistic kid than have him turn into a science-illiterate redneck on me, but it does scare me.
He hasn’t. He claims to have cured his other kid of ADHD; a much more subjective claim. His autistic kid has been chelated for, I don’t know, 3 years? Way beyond any treatment course for real and severe heavy metal poisoning as recorded in the medical literature. I understand the kid is as autistic as ever, just a bit more mature.
For that matter, I haven’t seen actual evidence that Ms. McCarthy’s son is non-autistic now. I’ve actually read indications to the contrary.
Yeah Johnnie, that’s it. I’m so terrified of your righteous rage that I hide behind a moniker. I’m actually psychic, and I predicted that I’d need this pseudonym years ago, so I began slowly building an alias. Finally, it has served its purpose – protecting me from you!
Moron.
Your gang is the one propegating lies, Johnnie. Read the headlines, look at the measles outbreaks. That’s the tip of the iceberg if people promote this anti-vax crap.
Let’s get this perfectly clear – if I choose to vaccinate my children, it has no negative effect on your children. In fact, my children’s vaccinations protect your kids. If you choose not to vaccinate your children, they can serve as a disease vector to my children, because vaccines aren’t 100% effective. Comprende, Johnnie? If anyone needs their ass kicked, it’s you, you fucking parasite. Morons like you endanger other people’s children as well as your own.
On the other hand, it’s nice to have the cool people from RI like Tsu Dho Nimh here at “home.” Saves me the trip. :)
John Best –
I’m gonna laugh when your kid needs hospitalization because of the chelation therapy. You are the worst of the worst.
I can see you’re emotional because your kid has autism, but your overemotionality has caused you to lose any grasp on reality.
And stop being a homophobic needledick.
And as for the physical threats – you are aware there’s something called jail for assault, right?
PZ is welcome to him. I’ve had to put up with him intermittently for three years–dating back to before I even joined ScienceBlogs.
Hey, wait a minute!
JB
Given his circumstance, I’d call that a reasonable response.
@Johnny the Homicidal Maniac
Well, that was unoriginal and batshit insane…
I wonder what you queers would say if were men and had children of your own.
and…
You’re afraid men like myself will hunt you down and beat the hell out of you for propagating lies that hurt our kids.
Staggeringly wrong on multiple counts. My oldest son is a Marine. Who learned to fight before he ever went off to boot camp. From me. But since you’ve offered an implicit challenge – bring it, bitch.
Orac – There’s your remedy. Next time ol’ Johnny shows up at your blog being a blowhard, tell him there are some sluts and faggots over at PZ’s joint that need help. He was ever so informative this time. *snort*
Katharine,
There is no such thing as homophobia. People who use such idiotic terms are enablers of psychotic behavior.
Epinephrine,
Measles is no big deal. Another stupid argument from team nitwits.
My kid is autistic because he was vaccinated simpleton.
No doubt “men” like Johnny imagine that when they hunt us down and beat us up, they will effectively counter our Flaming Hammer of Big Pharma with a Flying Chelation Attack, or some such Z-grade action movie nonsense…
As a dog returneth to it’s vomit, so doth a fool to his folly.
Eric,
I learned to fight on a hockey rink. I also learned it was much better to be an officer than an enlisted guy so I went to college before I joined the military. Why weren’t you smart enough to send your kid to college instead of encouraging him to be a grunt? Seems like the same sort of intelligence that would deny the truth about things in vaccines that hurt babies. And you call me a moron?
@244
I’ve read some blazingingly stupid comments before, but that has to be the stupidest thing I’ve ever read, seen, or heard.
Wow.
I learned to fight in the girls lavatory.
Yes, there is such a thing. Read about the folks who kill gays for being gay. It’s like racism, but against gay people. You’re out of your fucking mind, dude.
Measles is a pretty fucking big deal. And your kid is autistic because his genetics weren’t so good. You unwilling to think that your genes suck so bad? You unable to comprehend polygenetic inheritance, you kid-sickening scumbag? Yes, by giving your kid chelation therapy, you might make him end up like the 5-year-old kid in 2005 who died of kidney failure from chelation therapy. Fucker.
I’m a neuroscience student. Autism is under pretty heavy research right now, and I can tell you that the genetics are complex and we still haven’t hashed it out yet, but, uh, every scientific study published, EVER, by any independent source has said that VACCINES DO NOT CAUSE AUTISM. Most people on here have been vaccinated, and most of us don’t have autism. Just because you’re a parent doesn’t mean you know everything about your kid’s brain. Try listening to people who actually study it for a living.
And stop slinging around physical threats. There is precedent for calling the cops on your dumb ass. Fucking stop, before one of us decides to ruin your life.
Why weren’t you smart enough to send your kid to college instead of encouraging him to be a grunt?
I didn’t encourage him one way or the other. It was his interest, and I laid out the pros and cons (I grew up in the military myself, son of an enlisted man who is to this day one of the hardest-working and most honorable men I know) and let him make his own decision as an adult. From the comments you’ve left here, I can see how the concept of informed adult decisions would be extraordinarily difficult for you to grasp.
Seems like the same sort of intelligence that would deny the truth about things in vaccines that hurt babies.
You’ve caught me; I guess I’ll have to confess a few other things to you, then – the moon landings were faked, aliens inhabit a secret base under Area 51, the collapse of the Twin Towers was a controlled demolition, and Hollywood is secretly run by the Jews. Yawn.
And you call me a moron?
Why, yes; yes I do.
Another thing – if you were indeed an officer, as you imply, then you would be in a position to know just how important a highly trained and dedicated force of enlisted personnel are to our nation’s armed forces. That you speak with contempt of “grunts” is a good indicator that you were a piss-poor excuse for an officer.
To say nothing of the high-functioning autistic individuals, though – their autism clearly doesn’t affect them so pathologically and, indeed, being in the broader autistic phenotype can confer some advantages on people. People with more severe and pathological autism, though, well, then their genes subjectively didn’t really work out so well for them.
To clarify my perspective, I’m not autistic, I know of several individuals who are and who have done well – Temple Grandin, for example, is an accomplished agricultural scientist.
Johhny, tell us what you think about womenfolk.
Why Chimpy, you are a VERY naughty boy. *sly smirk*
You are wasting your time and energy with John. He is a troll welded immovably to his belief. Sadly, his son is the one who is paying.
If you want to read about his more exotic beliefs first hand please try my thread where his idiocy in most things is laid bare.
Other than that I would suggest ignoring him and that PZ plonks him.
“
Katharine,There is no such thing as homophobia. People who use such idiotic terms are enablers of psychotic behavior.
Epinephrine,
Measles is no big deal. Another stupid argument from team nitwits.
My kid is autistic because he was vaccinated simpleton. DUH HUH HUH HUH I LIVE UNDER A ROCK”
FTFY ASSBAG
Apparently I don’t know how to use HTML tags .
Eric,
I have no contempt for enlisted men. My father was an enlisted man. So were my grandfathers. I’m pointing out your stupidity and ineffectiveness as a father for not showing your son the benefits of education. For someone dumb enough to think vaccines are safe, that figures. Are you aware that lots of enlisted men are coming back home all screwed up from vaccines? If they worked for me, I’d pencilwhip the paperwork and get them out of the shots. Bonehead.
OK, McCarthy and Peet…
But where the hell are Tom Cruise and Dustin Hoffman when you need them?
John Best, you’re such a cute homophobe by the way.
John do you live in Alaska and are you and expert on Foreign relations because Russia is just right over there
<-----------
by: Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT, OM | October 1, 2008 7:32 PM
Johhny, tell us what you think about womenfolk.
I think you and this Katharine idiot would make a nice couple.
Kev,
Still afraid to face me huh? Need more bananas?
I’m sure Katherine is a wonderful woman but I’m married.
I’m curious Johnny boy. What’s your thoughts on a woman’s place?
John, I hate gays too.
@Johnny Pencil-neck
I have no contempt for enlisted men.
Yet you spoke of enlistment in a
I’m pointing out your stupidity and ineffectiveness as a father for not showing your son the benefits of education.
In other words, you have no idea what kind of education enlisted men receive when they choose particularly difficult and challenging fields in their service in the armed forces, as my son has, nor do you appreciate how valued they will be in the civilian world after their service. I repeat; piss-poor excuse for an officer. Fuck off, butter bars.
Are you aware that lots of enlisted men are coming back home all screwed up from vaccines?
I am aware that you are a pathological liar with delusions of adequacy, a misogynistic homophobe visibly seething with closeted self-hatred, and a fringe conspiracy nut who is barely able to get past the same handful of long-discredited talking points in any given incoherent screed.
@Johnny Butter-Bars
First line should have read “Yet you spoke of enlistment in a contemptuous way.” I apologize for the mental vapor-lock you undoubtedly suffered trying to parse that.
Everyone here is facing you John. Not one of us is afraid. It’s quite amusing to watch you thrash around in impotent rage.
Wow. Look at the vaccine knuckle draggers go. They should wipe their chins and take a few deep breaths before they burn up the last of their brain cells.
Yay – Amanda Peet on 93%, Jenny McCarthy on 7%.
Total Votes: 9,519
Jenny wins.
When someone tries to tell you how to parent or to gamble with your child’s life, they deserve a good smack-down. Jenny is in the right; Amanda needs to stop telling other people how to raise their kids.
Furthermore, Jenny isn’t against vaccines. She’s against the toxins in vaccines. She just wants to clean them up.
(I say this as someone who caught measles as a baby because other people weren’t vaccinated and I was too young to get vaccinated.)
sted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT, OM | October 1, 2008 8:15 PM
I’m sure Katherine is a wonderful woman but I’m married.
I’m curious Johnny boy. What’s your thoughts on a woman’s place?
That’s a difficult question. Eight Belles placed place in the Derby. But, then she broke her ankles and had to be destroyed, it was sad. Maybe you could be more specific as their are probably different places for different women. Julie Gerberding’s place should be prison while Julie Krone’s place was the Jockey’s hall of Fame.
I was just curious because you seem to be into choosing to insult people based on their sex, well only women of course, and you like to throw around homophobic slurs.
Seems to me you have some issue you need to address. you know, deep down issues.
Did your mommy not love you?
Patricia,
I see that some of you are presenting your stupid arguments but I was only addressing Kev. I’ve made him look like a fool so many times, all he can do now is cry for help when he knows he can’t debate his points.
Eric,
I was one of the people who educated those enlisted men. This would be a good time for you be quiet so you can read and learn.
Chimp,
I was insulting the whole group of you, regardless of sex. It just seemes that no father would begrudge anyone curing their son so, perhaps I made a bad assumption that you were all queer.
@Johnny Butter-Bars
I was one of the people who educated those enlisted men.
The word “was” makes me glad that you are no longer in a position to damage the good and decent young people who serve our country.
This would be a good time for you be quiet so you can read and learn.
Psychotic fucktards like yourself have nothing of value to teach myself or anyone else, Butter-Bars.
JB, the officers I knew would disown you. You are a sorry piece of shit and need to apologize to all the brave men and women who serve their country without your attitude.
@Nerd of Redhead
Agreed. I know many current and ex-military, both officers and enlisted, from different branches of the service and I guarantee that every one of them would stockade this sniveling little bitch of man if they heard him conduct himself in such a manner. Come to think of it, that’s probably why he’s no longer there, isn’t it…?
John -I gave you no argument. I simply stated that none of us are afraid of you.
You are a homophobic blowhard. We’ve seen and heard that so many times it’s a bore. You’ll have to try much harder to ruffle the petticoats here.
John Best, #274, wrote:
Er, you are aware that gay men can – and do – father male children, aren’t you?
Then again, from the display of ignorance you’ve made here so far it wouldn’t surprise me that basic physiology is beyond your comprehension.
And, for the record, your misogyny is sickening. I hope you don’t have any daughters.
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/06/the_jenny_mccarthy_rally_tomorrow_antivaccine.php
***
Somehow I suspect John Best would have no trouble hiding his from the magic-thieves in Africa.
Because, silly, it gets the viewers worked up and more of them tune in and the ratings increase, which results in revenue.
Journalism 101: conflict sells. If you don’t have some ready-made, stir some up. That’s the real reason for the “balance in all things” school of “two sides to every story” journalism: one-sided stories don’t sell.
Correct. Dishonorable Discharge. Officer my ass.
Just out of curiosity I visited the AoA blog and noticed that some of the folks from here got comments posted. Were there many that did not get posted? I have left a few comments there, and only one has been posted.
Oh, by the way Ms. Vignault said “Jenny wins.
When someone tries to tell you how to parent or to gamble with your child’s life, they deserve a good smack-down. Jenny is in the right; Amanda needs to stop telling other people how to raise their kids.”
Actually, the vote on what science shows is not based on popularity contests. Here are the studies on MMR (which never contained thimerosal):
http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p4026.pdf
and then for thimerosal:
um, well all pediatric vaccines are available without thimerosal, so what is the point?
If you have any real scientific evidence that the MMR is worse than measles, mumps or rubella, please present it (oh, goody you survived measles… 1 out of 1000 do not). If you have any real scientific evidence that the DTaP is worse than diphtheria, tetanus or pertussis, please present it.
And my irony meter broke with your comment… Ms. Peet is telling folks that vaccines are safe, while Ms. McCarthy is going around telling parents to give up lattes to pay for thousands upon thousands of dollars for supplements, not to let them have milk or wheat, treatments and all sorts of crap. She just a got a special stripper pole for her son:
http://www.autismvox.com/mccarthys-er-autism-pole/
Patricia,
You’re a slow learner, there are no homophobes. There are people who think they should go back in the closet where they belong and keep their perversion to themselves. I suppose if I told you I disapproved of NAMBLA you’d call me a NAMBLAphobe. Or, if I disapprove of liars who promote false information about autism, I might be a liarphobe, right?
Eric,
I was in the military a long time ago. The officers I knew would have joined me in beating you bastards senseless for abusing children, then we’d have thrown the queers out of the military and had a few beers to congratulate ourselves for a job well done. You liberal pukes need to get your heads out of your asses.
Translation: I’m a rationalizing homophobe.
Hey PZ, where’s your killfile? This kid-killing, homophobic, right-wing fundamentalist fuckface needs a banhammer.
John Best – I do not approve of child abuse in any form. Your homophobia is disgraceful. You are correct, I was a slow learner regarding gays and lesbians. Simply because they are so terrorized by christian fanatics where I live that I didn’t know any. Now I do. What delightful companions they are! Witty, charming and down right fun to be around. Not once has a gay or lesbian person made an indelicate advance toward me. Grow up.
I fear John doth protest too much. Check the stance John.
Off topic, but I need some info and I thought this might be a good place to ask. I thought I remembered some research that was done not too long ago that showed that particularly homophobic men show strong homosexual preferences. Something like that, anyway. I need to dig up that study–does anyone know where I can find it? :)
This sounds just like Scott from Oregon’s brilliant witty remark “there are no poor people in America”
If I found out John Best lived in my home town it wouldn’t shock me in the least.
First Jenny McCarthy, now Johnny Best.
There seems to be a stronger correlation of autism in the children of psychopathic fruitcakes than there is in vaccinations.
I’m not playing with you any more John. Your behavior is not acceptable amongst decent people.
Hurl him please PZ.
Patricia,
Thanks for telling us you’re prejudiced against Christians. Do you wear your KKK hood proudly?
Does my Christianity threaten you? God doesn’t like queers either. That doesn’t make Him a homophobe.
The all-loving God of Christianity here on a platter. Jesus loves you and forgives you for your sins… unless you are a fudge-packer in which case he’s going to enjoy watching all you pillow-biters suffer.
If God hates homosexuality, then why did he invent lesbian porn? ;)
“Thanks for telling us you’re prejudiced against Christians. Do you wear your KKK hood proudly?”
The KKK is a Christian organization.
@Johnny Butter-Bars
I was in the military a long time ago. The officers I knew would have you damn kids git off my lawn and keep the wimmenfolk in the kitchen and Gawd bless the John Birch Society blah blah blah zzzzzz…
Gosh. I’m truly sorry, Butter-Bars; I had no idea that your dick was THAT small. I’ll bet you’re upset about those uppity Negroes, too.
Newsflash, Einstein – the KKK is an exclusively Christian organisation. You’re a pig-ignorant, racist, homophobic misogynist turd.
Your son – heck, every son – deserves a better father than you.
Actually, I feel as though I should apologize to PZ for Best. After tolerating his vile antics for nearly three years at my blog, I finally banned him this summer when he started dissing my dog who died back in July. He’s also lately been accusing me of being a NAMBLA member based on a “NAMBLA member list” posted around Usenet back around 2000 by Holocaust deniers trying to discredit those of us who took an interest in refuting their lies. He knows the list is bogus and came from neo-Nazis, but he used it anyway.
It takes a lot for me to ban someone, but I think you’ll agree that Best long ago passed the threshold. That I put up with him for so long should be testament to my dedication to free, unfettered speech.
Wowbagger,
If you know what KKK stands for, you can figure out which kind of Christianity I subscribe to. Nitwit.
Orac,
What I know about you is that you’re a liar. You commit malpractice all day long by lying about mercury, autism and chelation so who knows what else you’ll lie about. Why should I believe anything you say? Am I supposed to be bothered by being banned from some nitwit infested blog?
And on that note, we say adieu, John. You won’t be at all bothered to learn that you have been banned from another nitwit infested blog.
*fireworks, pealing of bells, cheers ring out across Pharynguland*
I’m honestly surprised that Johnny Butter-Bars hasn’t yet stridently declared that vaccinations are a conspiracy cooked up by the troika of the Skull and Bones Society, the Illuminati, and the International Jewish Monetary Conspiracy. It wouldn’t be any less frothingly demented than anything else he’s said thus far…
He’s not the sharpest tool in the shed, just an idiot with a fixation on the evils of homosexuality… Just like Ted Haggard.
Wouldn’t be surprised if he were a closet homosexual; maybe that’s why we wants them back in the closet. He’s been sitting in it all alone waiting for them to come back and give him a reach-around.
Orac – You have the patience of Job to put up with that much troll poop for three years.
Way to hurl PZ!!!!
Huh. I was kind of curious as to what this meant:
“If you know what KKK stands for, you can figure out which kind of Christianity I subscribe to. ”
Probably not important.
And on that note, we say adieu, John.
What, I missed the action! But I found a recreation on YouTube.
Love the dungeon inscription
It seems that Jenny McCarthy’s book is polling well on Amazon, maybe its time to balance the reviews a bit.
http://www.amazon.com/review/product/0525950699/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?_encoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
Wait a minute – didn’t he get that wrong too?
The muzzy brain tries to recall – didn’t we decide we have dickwits, titwits and nipwits here? err…that left out the clitwits, that’s just not right.
“I’m honestly surprised that Johnny Butter-Bars hasn’t yet stridently declared that vaccinations are a conspiracy cooked up by….the Illuminati. It wouldn’t be any less frothingly demented than anything else he’s said thus far…”
He does believe that. A blog post of his: http://tinyurl.com/d1ckh34d
My, you’re stupid. You think the words Ku Klux Klan have meaning relative to a sect of Xinanity? I guess I can extrapolate that you’re referring to the particular version of sky-daddy-and-son ooga-booga that the Klan held in low regard: the cracker-worshiping, child-rapist supporting kind.
Good riddance, as they say, to bad rubbish. Try learning something – you may actually be able to be good father to your son.
Hi Kev @ 311,
It seems Johnny took his ball and ran home to his own miserable excuse for a blog: here’s a more up-to-date posting, being an even more scurrilous rant about PZ and all of the apparent “queers” that post here:
http://tinyurl.com/h0m0ph0be
Regards, Philip (queer and unashamed)
He usually does Philip :) – basically, if you don’t agree with him he froths and insults and rants and then loses his energy (he’s not a young man) and gets his wife to mop his brow ;)
People who vaccinate are twits and morons, so Jenny and Amanda are obviously both twits and morons; only, Jenny is (like me) a reformed moron, while Amanda is still suffering under the illusion that vaccines prevent diseases.
Watch my presentation “Vaccination: Miracle or Mayhem?” on youtube videos. Part 1 is about the disgusting ingredients in vaccines, part 2 about vaccine-injured children. There will be 10 parts in the series when it is complete.
Oh fuck, we have another troll again?
Fuck off, Erwin, we’ve had our fill of anti-vaxer idiots who don’t know anything about vaccines and why they work.
Erwin, any chance you appropriately reference refereed medical journals anywhere in your videos? If you don’t, your videos are pure trash, the ravings of a TrueBeliever(TM).
It would be interesting if any of the anti-vaccination people were actually real medical scientists and preferably medical statisticians. If they brought an impartial look at it through the use of corroborating data instead of hearsay and scaremongering then there might be a case.
As with everything: SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE
10 parts of fail.
There is no evidence based science that supports the vaccination autism link.
@Kev
He does believe that.
Oh, fuck; sometimes real life IS the parody. And AIDS is artificial and deliberate??!?!?!??!?!?!?!? You know, I once considered that idea. Twenty years ago. For about ten minutes. Then evidence knocked and said “The Fifties called; they want their stupid paranoia back.” Holy shit, however deranged we think these asylum-dwellers are, they are infinitely worse…
Eric I posted this link earlier, but I figure it’s worth posting again.
It’s John Best’s greatest hits.
It’s John Best’s greatest hits.
?
!
?!?!?!?!!?!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???
Holy shitburgers. That is weapons-grade fucknuttery right there. How does this twit’s head not spontaneously combust????!?!?!
Elaine @ 270
You appear to be the post and run type, so I’m not holding my breath for an answer, but:
1. What ingredients does McCarthy want removed from vaccines?
2. How does she know these ingredients are toxic at the doses they are used?
3. What does she propose to replace the “toxins” with, as every ingredient in a vaccines serves a specific purpose?
4. How will the replacement ingredients affect the vaccine’s efficacy and/or safety?
Erwin @ 315
Aside from the fact that I don’t personally find any vaccine ingredients disgusting, the fact that something is disgusting doesn’t mean it’s not medically sound. Using maggots to clean wounds sounds incredibly disgusting to me. But that treatment is supported by actual medical evidence, so the fact that it’s gross isn’t really relevant.
“Toxins” (yes scare quotes) she 100% doesn’t understand. They are either not in the vaccines or in safe doses.
The dose makes the poison.
These people lauding Amanda Peet are delirious. They should just stop drooling over her here and whack off somewhere else as they don’t seem to care about the actual issue at hand. Look, attacking vaccines alone is silly. Vaccines aren’t the point and I doubt there is still much that is toxic in them. Vaccines were dangerous when they had thimerosal in them, and it’s not out of all the vaccines anyway. That mercury should have never been taken out of the issue when it was the real culprit. Those who knew about the dangers of thimerosal should never have looked for other things about the vaccines to blame when they became discouraged by the falsifiers.
Lurker, I can’t make out your point. Do you have one?
Show your work.
At this point, I’m wondering if Best’s kid being no longer autistic (assuming that’s true — Best isn’t exactly the most reliable witness) is a good thing. Now he can grow up to be a violent homophobic psychopath like his old man.
Well, maybe I’m being too pessimistic. Unlike autism, being a homophobe (or violent) may not be genetic.
That’s a myth. There’s actually no evidence that the Amish have a lower incidence of autism. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s higher actually. The prevalence of developmental disability seems to be higher in some Amish communities.
“The Amish are 12 percent of the local population, but their children represent close to half of the area’s most severe cases of mental and physical retardation.”
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E04E7DF153FF933A15755C0A9649C8B63
I’ve written about the prevalence of low functioning autism among the Amish here.
“I can’t make out your point. Do you have one?” Stop acting like a creep that is clueless. Those who put thimerosal in vaccines are the ones that are guilty and caused harm. This other vaccine scandal is a distraction. Period.
“Show your work.” It’s not my work. Find out about the evidence of dangers and toxicity of thimerosal yourself that have been covered years ago.
Eric – this is why John can’t be reasoned with. I’ve been trying for 3 or 4 years and got nothing but pointless insults made to my autistic daughter as a result. He thinks people don’t argue with him because we’re all ascared. In reality its because we’re really, really bored.
Dave – John’s son (Sam) is most definitely just as autistic as he was when John started using him as a guinea pig. John (like Jenny McAirhead) claims his child is better, then worse, then better, then almost cured depending on what audience he’s writing for. The truth is the poor lad is just an autistic child trying to make his way – can you imagine living under the pressure of being John’s son? No wonder he’s constantly head-butting.
lurker – sorry but your comments make next to no sense at all. I suggest calming down a little bit and trying again.
Um no. You are making that assertions. Show me the links that prove Thimerosal caused some kids to get autism.
Go ahead. You can link it right here in the comments. If you can’t you are either lying, don’t have a link or are just regurgitating what someone told you.
There is no causal evidence. Period. Parents just want someone to blame for their child’s autism. They can’t accept that it’s probably inherited genetics or a mutation that happens in the first 8 weeks from conception.
You get way more mercury from eating fish than you do from a vaccine. Are they going to blame fish sticks and tuna salad too?
Damn straight! Fish sticks scrambled my kid’s brain! Mrs. Paul is a homo!
Kev, yes the comments do make sense. You don’t make sense you sissy! I don’t need to calm down so I can be a sedated emotionless wimp like you.
“Um no. You are making that assertions. Show me the links that prove Thimerosal caused some kids to get autism.” Um, yes. Not everything said here is backed up by links. Anyone here should have a rudimentary knowledge of the controversy and should have heard something about it. Besides, you won’t believe anything I present anyway.
Geier, D. A., and Geier, M. R. 2007. A prospective study of mercury toxicity biomarkers in autistic spectrum disorders. J. Toxicol. Environ. Health, A 70:1723-1730.
Austin, D., Shandley, K. (2008). An Investigation of Porphyrinuria in Australian Children with Autism. Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health, Part A, 71(20), 1349-1351.
Nataf, R., Skorupka, C., Amet, L., Lam, A., Springbett, A., and Lathe, R. 2006. Porphyrinuria in childhood autistic disorder: Implications for environmental toxicity. Toxicol. Appl. Pharmacol. 214:99-108.
“You get way more mercury from eating fish than you do from a vaccine.” Why don’t you prove that? And why not prosecute the people who release mercury into the environment which ends up as methylmercury in fish?
Board on Health Promotion and Disease Prevention, Institute of Medicine (2004)
Basically you anti-vaccinaters are putting your own children and other children at risk by spawning conduits that could facilitate a measles outbreak. The vaccines are there for a reason, they prevent debilitating and deadly contagious diseases. To ignore that because hearsay tells you otherwise is not only dangerous to your own children, but it puts the lives of other children at risk.
being called a Big Pharma shill in 3..2…1…
I’ll do some research on those articles and get back at ya.
Geier should be good.
“Kev, yes the comments do make sense. You don’t make sense you sissy!”
Awwww….you’re copying what i say! How cute. I think from now on, I’ll just call you mini-me.
“I don’t need to calm down so I can be a sedated emotionless wimp like you.”
No, but you do if you want anyone to take you even remotely seriously Mini Me.
Kev, I think it’s funny how lunatics like to call other people crazy and lacking in credibility.
Lurker, can you show me any large scale statistical study proving that vaccines are linked to autism? Or this the reverse true–all large scale studies prove no cause/effect? Unless you have the proper data you are wrong.
I heard that some of the early CDC studies, which weren’t publicized, found strong links. The subsequent ones by the CDC contained many faulty and devious adjustments which decreased the relative risks shown for autism.
“Unless you have the proper data you are wrong.” No. Lack of evidence of something doesn’t mean something isn’t true.
Lack of evidence of something doesn’t mean something isn’t true.
it does allow you to make up any BS you wish, though, fool.
Why don’t you prove that?
would labels warning of high mercury levels near every can of tuna in your supermarket count as evidence for you, I wonder?
I wonder if a child who dies of a preventable infectious disease, laid at your feet, would count as evidence of what happens when one DOESN’T inoculate their kids?
OTOH, who cares, you’re a moron.
Of course, but it doesn’t make speculation any more valid. Presently there’s no evidence to suggest a link between autism and vaccination. There is however, plenty of evidence that shows why vaccination is good. To be opposed to vaccination without any evidence to do so is downright dangerous, it puts the lives of children at risk and it gives a breeding ground for dangerous diseases.
“Kev, I think it’s funny how lunatics like to call other people crazy and lacking in credibility.”
I don’t think I called you crazy did I Mini Me?
See? Babbling incoherently and making stuff up doesn’t make you crazy – just a worthless debate opponent Mini Me.
Ichthyic and Kel, I’m not talking about not vaccinating. As long as the thimerosal has been removed from the vaccines, there isn’t a reason to not use them. I heard there still is thimerosal in flu vaccines and I heard that not all countries are using vaccines that are without thimerosal. Those who previously were harmed by thimerosal are still around, so there isn’t a reason to stop talking about it.
Vaccines themselves weren’t the problem. This anti-vaccination hysteria is a problem and a distraction. The people who tried to expose the mercury connection should have been persistent against the liars, instead of resorting to blaming the vaccines themselves. There has been a lot of evidence of a link between thimerosal containing vaccines and autism among other things, and it hasn’t been cogently refuted. The corporate perpetrators still shouldn’t get away with it.
Kev, you don’t like debating because you can’t make a reasonable argument for what you contend. You’re full of crap and you’re a certified lunatic who won’t deal with his own issues, so you spew nonsense at others. There used to be a time when the assertions of the nutcases were met with suspicion in favor of sane people.
There’s absolutely no evidence that thimerosal causes autism though.
the World Health Organization has concluded that there is no evidence of toxicity from thiomersal in vaccines and no reason on safety grounds to change to more-expensive single-dose administration.
Besides, it’s been removed from most vaccinations yet the autism rate hasn’t gone down.
In the U.S., the European Union, and a few other affluent countries, thiomersal is no longer used as a preservative in routine childhood vaccination schedules.
Your argument speaks of a non-existent danger. That’s the problem, it’s arguing from hearsay and conjecture. And even if it were true, it’s downright negligent to remove any medicine based on a rumour. Real evidence is needed, we don’t even know what causes autism. So blaming it on a preservative with no evidential link is downright fallacious. But scaremongering propagates much faster than empiricism…
I’m trying really hard to find ANY reputable organisation that thinks that. They all keep saying it’s safe
“There’s absolutely no evidence that thimerosal causes autism though” Lie. Many people won’t be duped into believing there is no evidence.
“the World Health Organization has concluded that there is no evidence of toxicity from thiomersal in vaccines and no reason on safety grounds to change to more-expensive single-dose administration” What do they care? Who have they ever helped? I don’t trust the big organizations. Corporate interests, who want to save money at any cost, could suffer if the truth about thimerosal was accepted, and they have the power and money to protect themselves and the government has been happy to help them.
“Besides, it’s been removed from most vaccinations yet the autism rate hasn’t gone down.” How do you know? There is no evidence that the autism rate has stayed the same.
“Your argument speaks of a non-existent danger. That’s the problem, it’s arguing from hearsay and conjecture. And even if it were true, it’s downright negligent to remove any medicine based on a rumour. Real evidence is needed, we don’t even know what causes autism. So blaming it on a preservative with no evidential link is downright fallacious. But scaremongering propagates much faster than empiricism…” The existence of the danger doesn’t depend on whether you acknowledge it or not. The poisoning shoudn’t be allowed to go on because someone declares there isn’t any “evidence” even as evidence is piling up. Putting 3 periods after a sentence means someone is full of arrogant crap. Thimerosal has no therapeutic value, so ridding it from whatever vaccines it still is in isn’t taking away medicine. A better way to preserve vaccines should be used. I think the scaremongering of implying that poisoning with horrific consequences must be accepted to maintain safety is a shining example of tyrranical intentions. A lot is coming into knowledge about autism causes, so don’t act like nobody has a clue.
That was an inane piece of rubbish; borderline conspiracy theory at the start then complaining that we are ignoring non-existent evidence at the end. Not to mention you ignored the part about the preservative not being used anymore. But that would hurt your argument, especially as autism rates aren’t dissipating at it’s removal.
But of course that won’t convince you. The preservative has been removed yet you are still making a big deal about it. Why can’t you just say “we don’t know what causes autism and it should be something that is looked into” instead of coming to an unsupported conclusion with a degree of certainty that borders on fanaticism?
Lurker, you are at blog about science. In science you are wrong until you prove yourself right. We may take the word of somebody who has a good track record, but that precludes you. Can you show any large scale evidence that 1) thimerosal is present at any significant levels in present childhood vaccines, and 2) any large scale study showing cause and affect of thimerosal and autism? If you can’t, you are just wrong.
I would suggest looking at Califonia data of reported autism for the last 10 years and see if you can tell me which year thimerosal was banned.
Kel, so what I sound like a conspiracy theorist? Things happen, and I refuse to believe everything the government tells me. I didn’t ignore that it wasn’t used anymore. It should be removed from all vaccines everywhere so it doesn’t become injected into infants anymore. People in countries where it has been taken out of vaccines don’t have to worry about it, except for the flu vaccine. There is no reliable evidence that autism rates stayed the same or went up. What is this obsession with California data for prevalence? Why is this cherry picking going on? And California DDS data are worthless cause I think it could be too erratic. There should be a system to report total numbers of cases of autism in specific age ranges, within a country over time.
“In science you are wrong until you prove yourself right.” Then how can you prove yourself right besides making snooty comments and judgments?
“We may take the word of somebody who has a good track record, but that precludes you.” You’re not a paragon of scientific reasoning, but a lapdog of vested interests that manifest themselves in snotty pretentious attitudes. Screw the “good track record” of whoever you believe.
“thimerosal is present at any significant levels in present childhood vaccines” Irrelevant question. Thimerosal has been removed from most vaccines except for the flu vaccine. I’m talking about what happened years ago that the falsifiers want people to ignore.
“any large scale study showing cause and affect of thimerosal and autism?” Check out the earliest CDC studies that were put aside. Particularly the analyses done in Nov. and Dec. of 1999, in which they actually used a control group that had no injections containing thimerosal.
“If you can’t, you are just wrong.” Once again this fallacy that a lack of evidence means someone is wrong. It would mean I could be wrong, but it doesn’t prove I’m wrong. Besides, the evidence is out there.
Lurker, you did not address the California data. California banned thimerosal prior to the FDA doing so. Please use the reported autism data to show which year this happened. If thimerosal was a problem, there should be a dip after the ban went into effect. Please show the data.
Science-you’re trying to do it wrong. You are wrong until you prove yourself right. Period.
@lurker: You haven’t heard that Geier & Geier are completely discredited? Just like Wakefield.
Even if you don’t care about that, it’s interesting to look at their work. They never control for any confounding. They always take advantage of correlations that are evidently not causative. I’d be surprised if they don’t know what they are doing. Mark Geier is a professional expert witness in vaccine injury cases.
As to the association between porphiria and autism, even if it were confirmed (it isn’t – there are some methodological questions to be resolved), does that imply heavy metals are associated with autism? No. It only tells us porphiria is associated with autism.
Is that the evidence you have?
Here you’ll find a graph of the 3-5 autism caseload in California DDS from Q2 2002 to Q1 2007. The data is so erratic that, get this, the R^2 of a linear fit of the data is 0.9954.
Can you spot removal of thimerosal there? Maybe they are making up autistic kids in California these days.
They actually have thousands of autistic kids in California. It’s a pretty good data set in this sense. Of course, these are only autistic kids who have been identified and registered with CDDS, not all autistic kids from California.
“California banned thimerosal prior to the FDA doing so.” How does that make the data better? I’m not the only one who thinks the DDS data are unreilable. How can a bureaucratic entity be expected to have a proportional correspondence between actual prevalence rates and numbers of cases in their system, when so many changes in policy can take place over the years? Not to mention, diagnostic criteria changes.
I haven’t looked at the California data. To see a dip after a ban went into effect, I think the dip should be expected specifically after the stocks of thimerosal vaccines actually ceased to be used.
Yet you trust the numbers from the ultimately biased groups that make these claims.
Interesting.
Lurker, so you are saying you don’t believe the Califonia data beceause it doesn’t back up your assertions? That is what it sounds like to me. If this is true, it makes anything you say liable for the highest level of skepticism.
Joseph, I’ve heard a lot of the smear material about the Geiers, and I don’t believe the conclusions of it. Those studies didn’t show an association of porphyria and autism. Why did the studies show that autistics had elevated levels of specific porphyrins which were markers of heavy metal exposure? And how come in one of those studies after they administered chelating agents, the levels of those markers went down?
How does there being thousands of autistics in California make their data better? What is making CDDS’ caseload rates go up consistently? How can those rates be reflective of actual prevalence? Think of all the factors affecting their numbers. What about changes in funding available for the CDDS to use for their caseloads, as well as policy for how their money is allocated for specfic conditions, and choices of who will get to receive services? Who knows how much changes in policy over time happen with changes in the bureaucratic officials and goals of the CDDS? What about the public who seeks out those services in possibly ever increasing numbers because of the high publicity about autism? Who knows how much overdiagnosis there could be in California.
A couple of people on your side don’t think DDS data are reliable for tracking prevalence either. I don’t think you should use data only when it suits your purposes.
I posted the graph. Based on a CDC survey of vaccine providers across the US, availability of TCVs dropped from 56% in Sep, 2001 to 1.9% in Feb, 2002 (it was quick). So when should we see a dip in the 3-5 caseload?
While it is true that the DDS count is not an exact count of all autistics in California, it is clearly at least an approximate lower bound. Even considering this, you should still see a dip, obviously. If, let’s say, recognition of autism in a given year is 50%, and growing an extra 5% per year, and there’s a drop in the actual 3-5 prevalence of 50% in, say, 3 years, what should we see? Unless levels of recognition shoot up at precisely the same time, we should see a dip to about 32% of actual prevalence, or a drop of 40% in caseload.
In other words, if there is anything to the thimerosal hypothesis, the trend should’ve at least flinched a little. It didn’t.
Redhead, no. I don’t believe the CDDS data because there are too many factors affecting the data to find an answer as to the question of true prevalence changes. I heard that some of the other people who believe in thimerosal causation cited the CDDS data at times to try to show a decreasing rate of autism after thimerosal removal, but I disagreed with that tactic, because those numbers aren’t reliable and won’t hold up. There should be straightforward ways of tracking prevalence.
Well Lurker, you have just admitted you are a liar, bullshiter, and fraud. Nothing you say will be held as any truth and you will have to back up everything you say with hard data from this point forward. Opinion is worth the electrons it is writen with. You are all opinion, no hard data. Time to STFU and take your paranoia elsewhere.
The fact is that they plagiarized an early draft of a paper. Anyone can go and confirm this. They also created an IRB (an ethics review board of research on humans) that consisted of themselves and their partners.
But like I said, it’s interesting to look at examples of their work as well. See EpiWonk’s recent deconstruction of one of their papers.
As to the studies on porphyrins, there are several issues. One possible confound (brought up by NotMercury) is that autistics have lower levels of creatinine. So urine measures that are controlled based on ratio to creatinine could be easily skewed.
Another issue is that autistics could have slightly elevated levels of heavy metals that are nevertheless not causally associated with autism. Dietary differences are noted usually. Other confounds seldom considered are (1) Pica, and (2) the fact that autistics are recognized more often in more densely populated areas (basically, if you compare random groups of autistics vs. non-autistics, the autistics will more often live in cities).
Whether the porphyrins that are found to be elevated are specific markers for mercury is not something I can really comment on, but I believe that’s an unconfirmed claim by one researcher.
NotMercury is an expert on these types of things. He wrote about it here.
“While it is true that the DDS count is not an exact count of all autistics in California, it is clearly at least an approximate lower bound. Even considering this, you should still see a dip, obviously. If, let’s say, recognition of autism in a given year is 50%, and growing an extra 5% per year, and there’s a drop in the actual 3-5 prevalence of 50% in, say, 3 years, what should we see? Unless levels of recognition shoot up at precisely the same time, we should see a dip to about 32% of actual prevalence, or a drop of 40% in caseload.” That sounds reasonable, but I think there are other factors that would affect the numbers. Recognition of autism would be among them, and those type of considerations may be more complex. I doubt the CDDS is run the same way over time and wonder how policy changes could affect who gets access to their system. I found some analysis here.
http://citizencain.blogspot.com/2005/08/autism-epidemiology.html
If the thimerosal hypothesis is contradicted by the CDDS data, how can the alternate hypothesis of autism being purely genetic be considered in light of the same data? If it’s only genetic, and with there being a very low chance of change in genetic prevalence over time, why would the CDDS numbers show a steady large increase if the prevalence of autism is the same over time?
The CDDS data wouldn’t be consistent with either hypothesis because of other considerations, such as awareness or increased availability of services, or whatever. But the existence of those factors aren’t mutually exclusive with the possible realities of either hypothesis, so how can that data rule out or show anything?
I was one of the first to critique that. I didn’t say, “CDDS data is useless” although others did say something close to that. It’s clearly not useless. There’s a reason why they produce it. It probably takes a lot of work to produce. There’s a wealth of information there.
The problem is that some people pay no attention to the caveats of the data, and don’t know how to interpret it or analyze it.
What they did is take the caseload one quarter and subtracted it from the caseload the next quarter. They called this “new cases” and tried to see if “new cases” (intended as an indication of incidence) were dropping. The problem is that this calculation doesn’t give you “new cases” at all, as CDDS itself warns in their caveat documentation. (The Geiers have a paper that makes this exact mistake, BTW).
To illustrate, imagine I wanted to see how many people were born in the US between 2007 and 2008. To do this, I subtract the population in 2007 from the population in 2008, and I call it “number of births.” You see the mistake? What I actually calculated is number of births minus number of deaths.
In the long run, as the population levels off, the “new cases” in CDDS should drop. This is to be expected. What is happening in CDDS with “new cases” at the moment, though, is that it fluctuates. It’s not on a downward trend yet, but it should get there eventually.
Anyway, that’s why it was proposed that the 3-5 caseload is what should be looked at instead. Kirby’s infamous prophecy comes from this.
“If the total number of 3-5 year olds in the California DDS system has not declined by 2007, that would deal a severe blow to the autism-thimerosal hypothesis.”
Who says the only alternative is that it is purely a genetic disorder?
Any scientist looking at the California data would see no effect on autism rates due to removal of thimerosal from childhood vaccines. QED. Same is true of all large scale studies world wide.
You have problems with what the data says, so you are trying to weasel out in some fashion. That doesn’t say much for your intellectual integrity. If you don’t like the way the studies have been run, why don’t you run your own and publish it in an approriate refereed journal? That is what any scientis would do. Oh, right, the data isn’t there to support your presumptions.
Redhead, why won’t you acknowledge anything I said? I have been addressing your questions numerous times and you haven’t really followed up on it. You haven’t been able to come up with a reasonable rebuttal of what I say and your smears are ridiculous so you go into attacks on character. I just admitted I don’t find validity in all the data cited by my side, like the CDDS thing. You’re the one that would just take the word of someone who you deem to have a nice track record. Sounds like cronyism to me. I have to back up everything I say with hard data? But your fellow cover up artists don’t? That says a lot about your ethics. I think everyone should back up what they say. You’re nothing but an ass kissing, establishment bolstering, pharma shill with a snooty way of dismissing things you don’t want to recognize! Paranoia? For what? All I’m doing is trying to see things for the way they are. I guess I should just believe that the government and vested interests would never lie to me so I can be a nice little sheep!
There are some indications that California policy changes have an effect, albeit minor and not long lasting, in autism caseload. It’s not an effect that could offset thimerosal removal, if indeed thimerosal is a major cause of autism. It’s something that would have to occur at precisely the right time, too. You saw the graph. It would take a lot to keep that line straight.
It reminds me of David Kirby’s bizarre excuses: thimerosal removal was offset by crematoria, forest fires and mercury plumes from China (as if these things didn’t exist prior to the removal of thimerosal).
The hypothesis that autism is purely genetic would simply say that actual prevalence is (roughly) stable, while prevalence of diagnoses is increasing. This is consistent with the data. The thimerosal hypothesis says actual prevalence had increased and then decreased, a key part of the hypothesis being that we could tell actual prevalence was increasing by looking at data sets like CDDS. This is now inconsistent with the data.
Ahh yes. The Pharma shill gambit.
I know it was coming sooner or later.
knew even
Lurker, you keep putting up strawmen agruments that I see through. As any practicing scientist would see through. If there is a thimerosal/autism link, you need to show some positive unrefuted proof for it (your cited paper was refuted by a citation from Joeseph). All large studies to date prove no link. At the moment you are making a lot of noise with little substance.
You also ignored or attempted to handwave away the California data that is very, very conclusive, but doesn’t say what you want to hear. So you have very selective hearing.
What effects could those confounders you mentioned have on this? If the ratios were higher because of a lower level of creatinine rather than from heavy metals, why did the ratios go down after administration of chelating agents? I think that finding really puts down a lot of doubt about the heavy metal association.
“Another issue is that autistics could have slightly elevated levels of heavy metals that are nevertheless not causally associated with autism” That would be an immense coincidence. I wonder who could be convinced of that. And the Geiers aren’t the only ones who looked into the porphyrin thing.
Back to your perhaps. Perhaps. Perhaps. Maybe. Throwing suspicion on things isn’t science. Determining the facts with good methodology is. The facts say there is no thimerosal/autism link. You just can’t seem to deal with that. So you try to change the subject a bit.
You are the one making the claims, so the burden of proof is always on you in science. Show me data from refereed journals confirming your perhaps and maybes. If you cannot supply the proof in science, you need to step away from the claim until you can do so. Time for you to step away and you do the work required for confirming your hunches and publish it in refereed journals.
What is the specific paper about chelation of porphyrins again? I haven’t had the chance to look into it yet.
Unless you’re referring to the Geier & Geier paper. I automatically consider any paper by Geier & Geier suspect. It’s not that I automatically consider all anti-vax papers suspect. They are a special case.
It’s not a coincidence. It’s a documented fact. I’m aware of research (not yet published I think) that shows levels of mercury are statistically the same between autistics and non-autistics once you control for seafood consumption. For some reason, autistic kids are given more seafood. Pica is well know to occur in children with developmental disabilities. The association with urbanicity is also well known.
Joseph, I wouldn’t doubt that other environmental sources of mercury would complicate studies of prevalence, but I think that such exposures likely would have to change over time to explain unexpected changes in prevalence.
“The hypothesis that autism is purely genetic would simply say that actual prevalence is (roughly) stable, while prevalence of diagnoses is increasing” Since diagnoses are increasing, why couldn’t that trend coexist with the reality of thimerosal causation, where those diagnostic increases were due to something other than higher prevalence during the recent years? I think that the prevalence went up way back when thimerosal was in vaccines and the diagnoses went up with it, and the prevalence likely went down after its removal, but the diagnoses continued to go up for some other reason.
Redhead, what is with this strawmen crap? I hear that crap from just about every one of you mercury lovers. Who up in command is instructing you to use arguments with that word? Who funds all of those large studies that “disproved” the link? Why can’t those studies be refuted? What unrefuted proof of a link? Check out the November and December analyses of the VSD study, the analyses done before the study was changed to dilute the link that was found. There is lots of evidence making the link seem likely.
I don’t agree completely with Joseph’s refutation. He nearly admitted there may be slightly elevated levels of heavy metals in autistics. What is the conclusion about the California data? The same data repudiated by two thimerosal link deniers. Here’s one of them:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/citizencain/112372930229902214/#14693 The same data once used by the Geiers.
It seems like you dismiss data when you don’t like the conclusion and use the same data when its presented to show what you want. I don’t run any studies because I’m not a scientist. Why not look for real prevalence studies to find the changes in prevalence over time? I doubt it could take more effort than analyzing the DDS messes. What do you fear will be revealed?
Redhead, the facts do not disprove a link. Harm has not been disproven. You wouldn’t recognize any credibility if I talked in terms of certainty. While there still is a doubt, caution should still be exercised against using thimerosal at all. There is too much at stake to forgo action because of lack of scientific certainty. Scientific certainty isn’t always easy to come by.
Joseph, I don’t remember which one was about chelation and porphyrins. It was one of the two earlier ones. I’ve heard there is evidence of decreased ability to detoxify mercury in autistics due to genetic susceptibilities.
Couple points: (1) You’re trying to have your cake and eat it too; (2) That’s not really possible. You see, there’s a pace to the increase in recognition. It would be unbelievable if you remove a major cause of autism, and the trend in diagnoses doesn’t change at all. I think I already explained this.
That’s not how it works. There are correct ways to interpret data, and there are incorrect ways to interpret data. I for one have never dismissed the raw data.
Joseph, both the Geier and Nataf et. al. studies tested chelation on porphyrins.
This study shows there isn’t a lower level of urinary creatinine in autistics, and even corrects for age and gender.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/120124578/abstract
McCarthy use to say her son was autistic because he was an Indigo Child — a more highly evolved human who was at the vanguard of our evolution toward a more telepathic, sensitive society. Okely Dokely, crazy person.
I support Peet’s opinions and her right to express those opinions with threat of retribution by the fringe group who follow McCarthy and her cult of personality.
“It would be unbelievable if you remove a major cause of autism, and the trend in diagnoses doesn’t change at all.” That sounds reasonable, but I’m not settled on what the cause of the recent increases in diagnoses leading to the continuing of the ever steady increase in numbers is from. I’m not sure why there was a steady upward trend in the years before the thimerosal was removed. I suspect there is recent overdiagnosis. And the increases from quarter to quarter are influenced by other factors.
I saw some explanations about complications with CDDS from two sources that don’t believe in a thimerosal link.
http://www.theautismwiki.com/Datasources/CDDS
http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=501
It’s called education, you blithering imbecile. People who are intelligent enough to recognise fallacious forms of argument and informed enough to identify them by name will actually tend to do so.
Lurker, you aren’t getting it. Science is positive field. You make a hypothesis, and then try to prove it. You can’t prove a negative (disprove something). So if you are searching for a cause/effect relationship for diseases, a scientist usually picks up on a possible cause through epidemiological studies, then you need to go to the lab and demonstrate cause/effect typically using animal studies. There is no relationship shown between thimerosal and autism. Period. Your feeble attempts to try to show one is laughable. If thimerosal fails, you pull out other crap.
At this point, the burden of proof is upon you to show the harm from the agents you mention, not science to show the non-harm (which has already been done in clinical studies).
Not to make a fine point of it, but I’ve been critical of statements to the effect that CDDS cannot be used for epidemiology. It’s a mistake to put it that way. (One of the blogs you cited, LB/RB, is a group blog where I can post). In fact, Schechter & Grether (2008) is clearly epidemiology and it uses California DDS data. Many epidemiological studies use data sets that are either equivalent to California DDS or even of poorer quality.
Again, the problem is not the raw data. The problem is the meaning people assign to the raw data, which is often mistaken. A typical example is that people cannot tell the difference between autistic children in general, and autistic children who happen to be diagnosed and registered with CDDS.
Education! Wow Martin. I bet it’s like reeducation camps, so others can be indoctrinated to think and act like they are told to. I’m sick of you elitist homos who stick up their noses at what they don’t want to acknowledge and talk with snotty obnoxious voices, and refuse to admit the phoniness of their own flawed arguments. I’m sick of all you smart people living it up while I have to endure being consumed by shit everyday, while you claim to represent all of the facts of reality. What forms of argument are acceptable to you?
Hate to quibble, since your larger point is right on, but philosophers of science (esp. of the Popperian variety) would disagree. The usual formulaiton is something like: no hypothesis can be proven correct, but many hypotheses–the good ones–can indeed be disproven (falsified). Disproving a positive statement is not the same as proving a negative statement, as you seem to imply.
Lurker, you seem to want science to do something for you, but your aren’t learning enough about how science works to know what you can reasonably expect. I suspect you want science to prove that something in vaccines cause autism. Never mind that science shows otherwise. There is no vaccine/autism link, therefore no one component in vaccines can be the culprit.
Autism, which is really several disorders linked under one diagnosis, is either genetic or developmental in its origins. The timing of the diagnosis frequently happens after the vaccinations are given, but that is due to how children develop and become mature enough for a diagnosis to occur. It cause people to believe vaccines are the cause when they aren’t.
And you keep forgetting that mercury has been removed from childhood vaccines.
Redhead, I think studies have proven a link. I don’t care what the falsifying studies say. For the upteenth time, the early CDC VSD study analyses showed a link. Look at this animal study:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=35740&mesg_id=36267
Thimerosal is not safe. Ethylmercury that comes from it isn’t safe. There is evidence of lack of dexotification ability in autistics.
Joseph, then I would take serious issue with such epidemiological studies. I still think CDDS is inconclusive about some things. I wish someone would procure better data sets for such studies.
Lurker, that study has been refuted. Thimerosal is no long in vaccines. There is no cause and effect proven.
“I suspect you want science to prove that something in vaccines cause autism” I want the truth to be proven. Those who suspected vaccines knew what was in them that was suspect. Mercury is one of the most toxic elements out there. How could it be anything else in vaccines besides mercury? How is it safe to inject small amounts of mercury into babies who have undeveloped brains? Not to mention, not every child may have the ability to detoxify those amounts of mercury.
“Never mind that science shows otherwise. There is no vaccine/autism link, therefore no one component in vaccines can be the culprit.” Not true.
“Autism, which is really several disorders linked under one diagnosis, is either genetic or developmental in its origins” Genetic or developmental? How are they mutually exclusive?
“The timing of the diagnosis frequently happens after the vaccinations are given” I’ve heard that lying explanation years ago.
Wow lurker. Just give up. Go somewhere else. We actually understand how science and data works. Your “I don’t accept those findings because it falsifies what I WANT TO BELIEVE” is stupid. We get those types of arguments from creationists claiming there was a global flood or that the earth is less then 100,000 years old.
Redhead, I don’t believe every refutation. Don’t remind me that thimerosal is out of vaccines. I’m talking about what happened years ago when it was in vaccines, and all you do is derail the conversation and pretend your claims are irrefutable.
Lurker, I still don’t quite understand what you want.
Mercury has been remove from childhood vaccines with no decrease in reported autism. This equals no mercury/autism link. Most mercury people absorb comes from living near a coal fired electrical generation plant. It is also ubiquitous in soil. You are obsessed with mercury. It isn’t the cause.
A large contingent of reseachers are looking for the cause.
As for the timing, that is the truth whether you like it or not.
You, sir are a True BelieverTM in mercury theory of autism. The facts won’t change your mind.
Many people won’t be duped into believing there is no evidence.
nice projection.
the facts at hand are that it’s obvious that many people HAVE been duped. The problem being that it’s those who think vaccinations cause autism that have been duped.
…by lawyers.
You guys sound so much like the “fake lunar landing” conspiracy theorists, it’s spooky.
you might ask yourself why that is sometime, before you completely lose what little mind you have left.
Steve, I’m sorry you can’t take it, that I’m raising so many doubts about your lies. What about what you want to believe and how that benefits and protects those who manufactured thimerosal? Who should people trust?
The Hewitson study had major methodological issues that were clear as soon as you read the abstract. The group sizes were very different (no randomization). There was no indication that there was blinding. The effect was such that if you extrapolate it to humans, then 70% of all people should be intellectually disabled. It didn’t make sense. See Orac’s takedown.
What really killed Hewitson et al., though, was that the main author did not disclose she is a petitioner in vaccine court. Conflicts of interest matter, but undisclosed conflicts of interest are immediately suspect. Additionally, Wakefield was one of the authors. See Kev’s summary.
Lurker, science is not built upon one study here or there. There needs to be a body of work. Replication is key. You basically have to let things develop and see where they lead.
How could it be anything else in vaccines besides mercury
do you understand developmental biology and immune systems?
no?
then how would you have the slightest clue if there were any other effect to vaccines that might cause adverse reactions besides the tiny amounts of mercury?
answer:
you don’t. Your basing your entire argument on what you WANT to believe, instead of any knowledge of human developmental biology.
ya know, you actually HAVE a great opporunity to ask dumb developmental biology questions of someone who actually teaches it (or weren’t you aware that PZ teaches developmental biology?)
Instead, you waste all your time on insisting your ignorance counts as knowledge, just like the creationists.
Ethylmercury that comes from it isn’t safe
If you were born before say, 1975, you were breathing lots of ethyl and methyl LEAD. You do recall at one time we used this stuff called “leaded gasoline”, right? Were you also aware of the effects of lead on human neurology and development?
no?
shocker.
why aren’t you all up in arms about leaded gasoline’s effects on your kids?
because you WANT to believe the cause is the tiny amount of mercury in ancient vaccines.
you’re pathetic, and actually dangerous, though you’re probably too ignorant to know it.
the ignorance can be fixed, if you really want answers, and not a “cause” to work in order to egg on your OCD.
Bottom line: you don’t WANT knowledge, you want to place blame.
it’s a fools game, and you are doing a fantastic job playing it.
Redhead, I want the mercury spewers to pay for what they did. The decrease in autism hasn’t been thoroughly looked for. I think the cherry picked data showing otherwise has been egregious. I’ve only seen extra evidence over time that mercury is involved in the causation. Mercury from coal fired power plants also could contribute. Those power companies should be prosecuted too. I wonder how much danger there is from mercury in fish being eaten by pregnant mothers.
God damn you are a fucking ignorant piece of shit! The preservative has been removed, the rates of autism haven’t gone down; thus no reason to suspect causation.
So…much…fail…
You do realise there are several independent bodies around the world who have all certified it as safe. Impartial organisations, 40-odd countries with socialised medicine, researchers, medical professionals. Basically what you are alleging is that the entire medical and scientific community is hiding evidence.
Yet you don’t have ANY PROOF that Thimerosal causes autism. You are certain of something with no evidential backing. To propagate that as fact is borderline retarded.
All evidence points to it having no effect, in fact in one study people who were injected with Thimerosal vaccines had a lower rate of autism. It’s not dangerous, it’s not even used anymore, you are on a crusade based on misinformation and hearsay. Then again, all religious crusades are like that.
Lurker, now we are seeing the hate filled anger you have been hiding all day. You still don’t have a valid scientific point, like everything else you have presented today. If you did, you would find people here agreeing with you, including myself. All I see is paranoia that needs professional treatment. Time for you to go home.
Well, Joseph, I don’t know how much can come out of a monkey study because of the differences between humans and monkeys.
“do you understand developmental biology and immune systems?
no?
then how would you have the slightest clue if there were any other effect to vaccines that might cause adverse reactions besides the tiny amounts of mercury?”
I don’t know about those things Ichthyic. What is your point? What indications are there for such a possibility? I don’t want to fall into that trap.
“insisting your ignorance counts as knowledge, just like the creationists” Why do you belittle things you can’t rebut?
What does leaded gasoline have to do with this? I wasn’t aware of leaded gasoline much at all, and its effects on children. It seems like such forms of lead could be very harmful. I’ve only heard of unleaded.
“why aren’t you all up in arms about leaded gasoline’s effects on your kids?” Because I don’t have any and this issue likely occurred before I was born.
“because you WANT to believe the cause is the tiny amount of mercury in ancient vaccines.” Ancient? You’re talking about leaded gasoline from over 30 years ago and you imply that my complaint about thimerosal, which has been out of vaccines for less than a decade is ridiculous? I’m tired of you going off subject.
“you’re pathetic, and actually dangerous, though you’re probably too ignorant to know it.” You’re contending that injecting mercury into infants is safe. That means you have no credibility when it comes to safety. What the hell is so dangerous about me?
“Bottom line: you don’t WANT knowledge, you want to place blame.” Those two aren’t mutually exclusive. I’m not interested in relinquishing blame to keep the culprits comfortable and happy.
/headdesk
And yet you never thought of looking it up?
/headdesk again
And lurker’s true personality comes out
la la la la di da
wait
what?
Yes, if we are not on your side, then we must all love mercury… pull the other one it plays jingle bells.
You are full of shit lurker and your true colours are showing. Because you can’t produce evidence, you’re trying to assassinate our character. Quite pathetic really.
Just to put a double underline on this.
Thiomersal in vaccines amounts to 12.5 micrograms. Micrograms. On other words virtually nothing. Anecdotal evidence of the Spectrum dates back to 2000 BC – well before any coal fired power stations. Thiomersal was invented in 1929 and was in the system in 1931. Eugene Bleuler had already coined the phrase “Autism” (1912), and Emil Kraepolin had already written about “youth dementia” (1893) – which has similar symptoms and traits to Kanner’s Syndrome.
Lurker, get off the thiomersal kick. Get off the mercury kick in fact. It’s garbage. Ethyl mercury is safe at the level it is in thiomersal. Methyl mercury (which is what is in fish) is not as safe. The Geiers are idiots. Joseph is spot on.
(Quick note – this thread has attracted a lot of stuff. Nice to see another person send Best packing for being the homophobic poor excuse for a father her is. Yeah I know that’s not why he was banned but it’s still a true statement about him)
And on topic, the mercury militia is fighting back on the poll.
Amanda Peet 90%
Jenny McCarthy 10%
Total Votes: 11,406
I voted for Amanda of course. McCarthy is an idiot, and is a front runner for the Phil’s World Idiot of the Year.
Rev., that nonsense has been going on all day. All emotions, no logic except “mercury bad”. Lots of sound and fury meaning nothing.
Lurker, time to go home. You failed to win us over because you lacked the proper evidence.
blockqutoe fail above there.
Should read like this
Maybe the funniest thing I’ve read all day.
First. How old are you lurker? It has nothing to do with the validity of your arguments, I’m just curious.
Secondly. You know of unleaded gasoline. So wouldn’t that maybe point to a LEADED gasoline if there is an UN version?
The amount of mercury in thimerosol is so many orders less than what one gets from the environment or eating certain foods that it is not even a worry.
Everything is toxic given the dose lurker. EVERYTHING.
You really should give up.
“God damn you are a fucking ignorant piece of shit! The preservative has been removed, the rates of autism haven’t gone down; thus no reason to suspect causation.” Provide reliable evidence of the lack of decrease in rates.
“You do realise there are several independent bodies around the world who have all certified it as safe. Impartial organisations, 40-odd countries with socialised medicine, researchers, medical professionals. Basically what you are alleging is that the entire medical and scientific community is hiding evidence.” I don’t think they’re impartial. There always tends to be people making a lot money who don’t want trouble. So I am alleging that. Besides, thimerosal in childrens’ vaccines has been banned in many European countries.
“Yet you don’t have ANY PROOF that Thimerosal causes autism.” You refuse to recognize any evidence, so you’ll just keep saying that.
“in fact in one study people who were injected with Thimerosal vaccines had a lower rate of autism. It’s not dangerous, it’s not even used anymore” I don’t believe a nonsense study crafted for the wanted result of those who funded it. What about the flu vaccines that still have thimerosal?
“Lurker, now we are seeing the hate filled anger you have been hiding all day. You still don’t have a valid scientific point, like everything else you have presented today. If you did, you would find people here agreeing with you, including myself. All I see is paranoia that needs professional treatment. Time for you to go home.” Redhead, so what I’m filled with hate? I don’t like the idea of being a passive little bitch that lets the big people get away with what they want. You hate the valid scientific points I presented because of what they expose. It isn’t science to you unless it is favorable and supportive of what you claim. I would have found people agreeing with me if I agreed with them like a yes man. So you call me paranoid and say I should be treated for it to protect the vested interests from the danger that I am.
Skeptic magazine for the win!
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/07-06-20.html#feature
There’s just too much here
Good, well reasoned and supported arguments. That is what. You might consider picking up a book on logic.
So far you are scoring in the lowest percentile. Maybe you should let the smart people handle it. You’re doing a terrible job representing the dumb people. Or maybe not.
In terms of rates:
http://www.fightingautism.org/idea/autism.php
After 10 years, where are the whistleblowers, Lurker?
Which ones were the valid ones again? I keep seeing the easily debunked ones.
Absolutely everything we could ever possibly need to know about lurker’s grasp of science was brilliantly summed up by his direct statement above at #389 –
I don’t care what the falsifying studies say.
Thank you for playing, lurker; here’s a cookie.
Good grab there Eric.
He’s the definition of a True Believer and he wants there to be a connection so he has something to get all sweaty and angry about. With out this horrible blight on the world brought on by those nasty scientists what else will he have to stew over while he’s sitting in his chair breathing out of his mouth and needing to be pissed at something …. anything?
I’m guessing he’ll probably turn that anger on the “fags”. He’s already hinted at that.
There is no amount of evidence we could how him that will change his mind.
He doesn’t care about facts, only about taking out some form of revenge on someone or something.
“Because you can’t produce evidence, you’re trying to assassinate our character.” Kel, you don’t like evidence. Who in their right mind wouldn’t think that what I presented raised a doubt about the safety of thimerosal? Your characters deserve to be soiled because of your attempts to cover up the causes of immense horror.
Phil, what is the safe level of thimerosal for injection into infants?
“All emotions, no logic except “mercury bad”. Lots of sound and fury meaning nothing.” Like you’re all paragons of logic because you pretend to be enlightened cyborgs. I wonder where I can find science saying mercury is great and healthy.
Rev, I’m 24. I may have realized that leaded gasoline exists or existed upon hearing about the unleaded version, but I didn’t think about it much.
“The amount of mercury in thimerosol is so many orders less than what one gets from the environment or eating certain foods that it is not even a worry.” I don’t know if that’s true. How much mercury would small children usually be exposed to through what they eat? Toxicity depends on route of exposure, and who knows what barriers and protections mercury from the gut has to penetrate to enter the blood, while injected mercury just enters the blood? Besides, mercury should be kept out of the environment too. I think harm could happen also through mercury containing fish consumption by pregnant women.
Micrograms may seem like small amounts but they aren’t.
“Everything is toxic given the dose lurker. EVERYTHING.” There is no established dose below which mercury is safe for injection into infants. Besiedes, what if there are some children who have decreased ability to detoxify it to begin with?
“You really should give up.” I guess I should give up with you. You won’t acknowledge what I contend no matter what I present. You don’t want blame to be laid on the guilty people.
Lurker, you should have given up on us once we started challenging your evidence, as you have none. Time to go home, and take your paranoia with you.
Or really. Says who?
jesus. fucking typos
Oh really.
Dr. Offit did the calculation. “First, prior to its removal from vaccines in the spring of 2001, it was possible that children less than 6 months of age could receive as much as 187.5 micrograms of ethylmercury in thimerosal. But because mercury is part of the earth’s surface, and is contained in our water, that wouldn’t have been their only source of mercury. A typical breast fed child would receive about 360 micrograms of environmental mercury, methylmercury. Because environmental mercury is eliminated from the body 10 times more slowly than the ethylmercury in thimerosal, it is much more likely to accumulate.”
To further put it in perspective, a tuna sandwich will have about 20 micrograms of methylmercury. One thimerosal-containing vaccine had about 25 micrograms of ethylmercury.
Tuna sandwiches are evil, right Lurker? If you like tuna sandwiches, we’re gonna have to call you “mercury defender” from now on.
“Good, well reasoned and supported arguments. That is what. You might consider picking up a book on logic.” So you attack my credibility because I fought back at others’ arrogant mudslinging. What do you think I am?
“Maybe you should let the smart people handle it. You’re doing a terrible job representing the dumb people. Or maybe not.” I’m not sure what you’re talking about.
Joseph, I think the whistleblowers were ignored, smeared, or bought off. Who knows what kind of intimidation some of them faced?
“Which ones were the valid ones again? I keep seeing the easily debunked ones.” I mentioned the early CDC VSD analyses, the porphyrin link, the chaos in the CDDS data, and the evidence of susceptibility to toxicity through attenuated detoxification.
“He’s the definition of a True Believer and he wants there to be a connection so he has something to get all sweaty and angry about.” I have lots of things to be angry about besides this.
“There is no amount of evidence we could how him that will change his mind.” I haven’t seen a lot of exculpatory evidence presented. Some of it raised meaningful questions, but it didn’t really contradict the link I contended.
And BOOM! goes the irony meter.
Let’s see:
American Medical Association
American Academy of Pediatrics
American College of Medical Toxicology
National Academy of Sciences
Food and Drug Administration
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
World Health Organization
Public Health Agency of Canada
European Medicines Agency
and pretty much all scientists who work in the field
Lurker, you are out of your league at this blog. Time to go home and stay there. And we will get the last word.
No I am saying you do not posses the logic skills needed to debate or argue effectively.
Logic, study it. The fact you didn’t know or refused to find out what a strawman was is prima facie evidence of this.
Thanks for supporting my argument.
Utterly ridiculous. In other words, lack of whistleblowers is evidence of how nefarious the conspiracy is.
Real cover-ups have whistleblowers. Google “tobacco whistleblower”.
We’re supposed to believe that there’s a cover-up by Big Pharma, helped by the CDC, the NIH, the FDA, the AAP, the WHO, and every national health organization around the world, and after 10 years, not one whistleblower. Not one parent or grandparent? Not a parent of an autistic child? Do these guys not vaccinate their kids?
Do you actually buy that?
Joseph, I’ve heard about where Paul Offit has received some of his funding from. I’ve heard about some of the differences between methyl mercury and ethyl mercury. I heard that ethyl mercury has a lower lalf life than methyl mercury. I also heard that ethyl mercury is dealkylated to inorganic mercury faster than is methyl mercury, and that there could be higher resulting inorganic mercury levels in the brain, and inorganic mercury has a longer half life than organic forms of mercury in the brain.
I realize that the 360 micrograms you mentioned seems comparable to the amount from injection, but what about the intestinal barrier that the ingested mercury would have to cross, limiting its access to the circulation, whereas injection would bypass that barrier?
Buy it? Heck, he doesn’t just buy it – it’s the priceless wobbling stick upon which spins the delicately balanced china plate of his world-view.
“No I am saying you do not posses the logic skills needed to debate or argue effectively.
Logic, study it. The fact you didn’t know or refused to find out what a strawman was is prima facie evidence of this.”
You have used no logic whatsoever in arguing with me. It’s been foolish nonsense that you wouldn’t use in any of your other endeavors. I looked up that straw man thing and I think the accusation is baseless.
Joseph, there have been whistleblowers but why would you care? I know what those like you do to try to ruin their reputations. Dr. Verstraeten, who worked on the CDC VSD study, claimed to believe in the link in 2000 based on evidence he had. Then in 2003, he said the same evidence was neutral, after starting to work for GlaxoSmithKline.
Kel, FTW @424.
(is that right?)
(Hi, K)
Just curious Lurker, what biochemistry training do you have?
indeed
Kel, I don’t know what you mean by training, but I studied some of it in college.
So where did your studies relate to immunology, toxicology and the effects of autism?
Kel, I don’t know what the studies I mentioned had to do with immunology, and I don’t know much about it. The studies about porphyrin association don’t seem to go into toxicology itself, but suggest the presence of a toxicant in autistics. I haven’t mentioned any studies that relate toxic effects of mercury to the effects of autism, outside of ones about epidemiology, but I have heard of them.
Way to deflect answering the question. I repeat, what makes you more qualified that almost the entire scientific community to think your opinion is of more worth than every single health organisation around the world?
I didn’t deflect anything.
“what makes you more qualified that almost the entire scientific community to think your opinion is of more worth than every single health organisation around the world” That wasn’t the question. But to answer it, nothing makes me more qualified. I don’t have qualifications. Don’t think about what my opinion is, but consider the opinions of the qualified scientists who are proving the link and have not recanted.
Just because all of those other scientists have the credentials doesn’t mean they will tell the truth. I believe the direction of what they do is influenced by who bankrolls them. And the vested interests have lots of control over who receives the money.
So you are in effect alleging a conspiracy theory? Do you have any idea the number of people who would have to be in on it?
“So you are in effect alleging a conspiracy theory? Do you have any idea the number of people who would have to be in on it?” I guess I am. I believe in conspiracy theories. I don’t know how many people it would take to support it, but I think there may be many health professionals who deny the link, who just believed what they were told by the other authorities, and didn’t look into the information themselves.
You “heard”, lurker? Heresay is your evidence? Do us a favor! All conspiracy theories here are based in heresay. You’ve just shot yourself in the ankle because you haven’t looked at the information yourself. You confessed yourself you aren’t qualified. You’re being pwned on this blog, bud.
Okay, so you are an absolute nutter then.
All organisations I listed before, the people who work for them on many levels, researchers into the link, medical statisticians and many medical professionals. In other words, a lot of people.
At least you are honest in playing your cards. Stupid but honest.
Jimmy, I heard those things from studies. I’ve been looking at studies and information. I don’t believe what you said about conspiracy theories. Why shouldn’t I try to figure out the issue just because I’m not qualified? What are your credentials? Your defensive arguments have been whipped around by the evidence I brought up, but you all just pretend it doesn’t exist.
Oh really? Why is it baseless?
Did you ever answer this?
What’s your take on 9/11?
“All organisations I listed before, the people who work for them on many levels, researchers into the link, medical statisticians and many medical professionals. In other words, a lot of people. ” I wonder if some of the people in those organizations who deny a link, won’t say they really believe in it because they don’t want to make waves where they have their careers. What are they going to do if they really think there is a link? Besides, I bet many of them just were convinced by what they were told to believe, or haven’t looked at all of the research themselves.
Lurker, on of things we are against here is something called “woo”. Our way of defining “woo” is something that doesn’t hold together if examined critically. Creationism and ID fall into this category, along with grassy knoll theories, Elvis is alive theories, 9/11 truther theories, and most other conspiracy theories including the thimerosal theories by the anti-vaxers. So for us, you appear to be spouting woo. So we ask you for the primary data, which is a way of getting to the truth. If the data appears to be hearsay, and we must trust your judgement on the conclusions, that makes our BS detectors go off in full alarm mode. In order to be sure we aren’t being BS’d, we then demand data outside of your control, preferably in the public domain like journal articles. You get upset when we do this since the literature is not kind to your theory.
The intelligent design advocates say the same thing about biologists…
The climate change deniers say the same thing about climatologists…
The UFOlogists say the same thing about government personnel…
It’s nothing more than rhetorical bullshit, tautological in nature trying to use the absence of evidence as evidence in itself.
Are you really trying to make that argument? You must get tired twisting yourself and everyone else on earth into knots to fit neatly in your assumptions.
So to you it’s that everyone is lying to cover their ass and that is why more people aren’t coming out to support the vaccination > autism link? That’s branding a lot of people as dishonest with zero evidence of their dishonesty.
Wow. What a morally lazy person you are.
Yet you can’t take the more logical and obvious path that people aren’t coming out to support the link, because there isn’t one. Your assertion that people are hiding it is because you sooo want it to be true. If I were you I’d sit back and really reassess my position.
Occam’s Razor for the win.
I hear that crap from just about every one of you mercury lovers.
Homer:
Mmmmmm, Mercury… *droool*
/Homer
Well, it’s been fun, but eventually poking sticks at asylum inmates wears thin.
bye “lurker”.
good luck with that OCD, denial, and projection.
The UFOlogists say the same thing about government personnel…
don’t forget the moon landing deniers!
I really get a kick out of those folks.
kind of a more interesting “flat earth society”
“”There is no established dose below which mercury is safe for injection into infants.”
Oh really. Says who?” Rev, what do you mean says who? What is the level for safety where no harm can happen? Prove to me such a safe level exists.
“What’s your take on 9/11?” I don’t believe conspiracy theories about that.
“Our way of defining “woo” is something that doesn’t hold together if examined critically.” Redhead, I think you all are against anything that contradicts what the government says. “Creationism and ID fall into this category, along with grassy knoll theories” Oh crap you actually deny grassy knoll theories. I think you guys are either very gullible or are advocates for the government for some motivation.
“and most other conspiracy theories including the thimerosal theories by the anti-vaxers” Thimerosal theories aren’t conspiracy theories. The epidemiologist Verstraeten uncovered the link with the CDC VSD study in 1999, before the study was changed and diluted, and he recanted after going to work for a pharmaceutical company.
What do you consider primary data? Look at the CDC VSD Generation Zero part of the study done late in 1999. I can’t find an actual copy of it, and it was never put in a formal report, but I saw an explanation of the study somewhere.
I could have gone on all day.
You are proof to the contrary
Let’s see:
No evidential basis
No expert support
Alleging that multiple large organisations are conspiring together to hide the truth
Denying any contrary evidence
Let’s face it, you are a classic conspiracy nut in the same vein as the 911 truthers. It’s just that you are even dumber because the preservative you rave on about isn’t used any more in western vaccinations. And if you are going to complain about the 3rd world, they have more immediate problems like AIDS, TB, maralia, starvation, war, and limited access to even the most basic medicine that should come before worrying about a slight increase in autism rates.
Prove to me such a safe level exists.
one wonders if this moron has ever eaten seafood.
no, wait, strike that, I really DON’T wonder, nor care.
“So to you it’s that everyone is lying to cover their ass and that is why more people aren’t coming out to support the vaccination > autism link? That’s branding a lot of people as dishonest with zero evidence of their dishonesty.” Rev, I see no reason to not come to that conclusion, and I doubt as many people as you claim are compelled to even have a position on the issue. I wonder how many of such people just do their job and aren’t really interested in what’s going on, especially when working in bureaucracies.
“No evidential basis
No expert support
Alleging that multiple large organisations are conspiring together to hide the truth
Denying any contrary evidence”
Bullshit Kel. I’ve been pointing to evidence all fucking day and you pretend I haven’t! Experts have weighted in on the issue claiming a link. You guys are just flat out liars.
“And if you are going to complain about the 3rd world, they have more immediate problems like AIDS, TB, maralia, starvation, war, and limited access to even the most basic medicine that should come before worrying about a slight increase in autism rates.” Great, so take advantage of their vulnerabilities. Think of how much harder it would be to survive in such horrible conditions while being brain damaged and mentally impaired. The damn corporate vermin out there make me sick. I don’t think there would be as many of those problems if such predators weren’t so devious.
And those who believe JFK was assassinated by the government claim they have evidence too… just as the 911truthers claim they have evidence… just as the young earth creationists claim they have evidence… just as the UFO nuts claim to have evidence… just as, well you get the idea right?
You should get out 911truth.org, then tell me that any half-arsed comment is evidence.
Here’s a question. If you have EVIDENCE, why aren’t you taking it to researchers? There are plenty out there who would love to make a name for themselves. Why instead are you preaching to the masses?
Why shouldn’t I try to figure out the issue just because I’m not qualified?
Because without the qualifications there is no possible way you could understand it enough to be an authority on the subject. Listen to those who are qualified as the rest of us do. Or are you scared? You haven’t pointed to evidence all [ahem] day. You’ve pointed to heresay all [ahem] day.
Just remember, Lurker, that creationists point to a select few scientists with Ph.Ds as the basis for evidence and use those lone voices of dissent as a means to launch the intellectual attack of “we have the evidence”. Check answers in genesis, there are Ph.D guys there talking without restraint that the earth is as God said in Genesis; 6000 years old and no evolution. You can always find a few people who will give the opinion you want, what matters is when than opinion becomes consensus in the academic arena and right now the consensus is that there’s no risk from that preservative.
You are such an insolent fuck! You do realise that the vaccinations they give save lives. You are just one persistent piece of shit, you know that? How about you actually ask 3rd world doctors if it’s more important to stop the spread of polio or worry about the slight risk of autism (which according to all major health organisations isn’t there), or AIDS, or TB, or Measles, or Smallpox, or Malaria. These things are fucking killers! You understand?!? Thousands are dying every day over there and you are trumpeting a non-existent thread! You are a fucking worm, a worm without conscience.
Lurker said; “Phil, what is the safe level of thimerosal for injection into infants?”
There isn’t one officially, because it’s safe. Or if there is it’s probably a gram. Still way off. Infants don’t get 100,000 injections!
Kel, I understand your anger but it might be an idea if you curbed the language. Just a polite piece of advice. Swearers end up losing debates whether they are right or wrong.
This isn’t a debate, it’s the insane ranting of a madman who won’t listen to reason, and half a dozen people trying to convince the madman that he won’t listen to reason. If this were a debate, I would agree with you. Profanity isn’t a polite way of going about things and doesn’t win you any friends. But if the guy acts like an arsehole, he gets treated like one. When he wants to grow up and drop his silly delusion that all medical companies are poisoning babies for profit then I might drop my Aussie mentality and be civil.
Lurker, you don’t need advanced degrees to write scientific papers and get them accepted. However, you do need to use the methods of science in order for that to happen. Hearsay evidence is not scientific. Conspiracy theories aren’t scientific. Attempts to prove these will get a paper rejected. You need the hard data. If you have that data, write it up and submit it to an appropriate journal.
However, you have not presented any unrefuted data. The thing with science is that it is dynamic. A paper covering a small study that might indicate thimerosal is bad is refuted if later larger studies show no effect. That is what happened with your precious paper. It was superseded by better knowledge and facts. Your precious paper has essentially ceased to exist.
Time to go home and stay.
Yet again more proof that you don’t have a grasp on logic.
You made the assertion that there is no safe level. You said it not I.
It is your burden of proof to back that up.
So show me a study that suggests that no level of mercury is safe.
I’m betting you can’t because it is something you just threw out there to make it seemed like you know what you were talking about. Instead it makes you come off like an ignorant fool.
The dose makes the poison.
If there had been, I’d know about it. There haven’t been any whistleblowers. Even Lenny Schafer admits this and wonders about it.
That’s the conspiracist take. In fact, the earliest analyses of the data by Verstraeten did indicate there was an association. But there was no control for confounding at all. As more confounding was taken into consideration, the effects faded. That’s how they got to the “neutral” results of Verstraeten et al. (2003).
That’s not the end of the story, though. The CDC did what they were supposed to do, which is to carry out a better study in order to confirm or discard the earlier results. This would be Thompson et al. (2007). It had a number of methodological strengths compared to Verstraeten et al. Most notably, they evaluated children using standardized tests, instead of solely relying on diagnoses recorded in VSD. The results of Thompson et al. (2007) were statistically amazing. They took over 300 measures, and the number of statistically significant associations was almost exactly what you’d expect to get by mere chance if the null hypothesis is true.
That’s how science works, Lurker, and I’m not sure you get that. You want to hang on to the earliest unpublished findings by Verstraeten et al. even though they are weak findings, already discarded based on more solid ones.
In essence, Lurker, it’s clear that you have some familiarity with the anti-vax talking points (some very old ones that no one uses anymore) that I’m guessing you got out of whale.to or AoA, but you just don’t have a depth of understanding of the state of debate in regards to those talking points. You need to frequent LB/RB or Respectful Insolence if you want to get up to speed.
I can’t find an actual copy of it, and it was never put in a formal report, but I saw an explanation of the study somewhere. – lurker
I’ll treasure that one!
Congratulations for honesty: it’s obvious that you don’t know. If you knew anything about the very topic you’re talking about, you’d know how ridiculously small those differences are.
Twenty-two years ago in the USA. Later elsewhere.
Please follow that link and read the whole article. Your ignorance on lead is staggering.
Which means that the autism rates there have decreased. Right? Right???
Or will you make up another factor that happens to have lead to just the right increase in autism at precisely the right time, like you did for California?
Why do you keep carrying these questions around with you? Why have you never tried to find out what the answers are???
That’s what I don’t get.
Actually, I do get it: you like to use your lack of knowledge as an argument. That makes learning counterproductive.
He doesn’t. He has simply never thought that far.
Which is a shame, because comment 430 is spot-on.
Barrier? Mercury and its methyl and ethyl compounds are soluble in cell membranes. They just pass through. No barrier.
You wonder. You bet. But you don’t know.
You have fallen among the scientists, my friend. Show us that what you allege is actually the case, or shut up. Merely showing that your imagination doesn’t contradict the laws of thermodynamics isn’t enough.
You’re doing it wrong. For everything that doesn’t cause cancer there is a safe level, however low it might be. Show us that the safe level for ethylmercury is low enough to be surpassed by vaccination. And then show us that autism is among the effects of ethylmercury.
Men are from Mars, women are from Venus, scientists are from Missouri. Show us.
What government? You didn’t really believe all of us are Americans, did you?
Kel, don’t act like you care about the people in the 3rd world receiving medical care! Lots of people out there aren’t receiving it anyway. They don’t need to have thimerosal in their vaccines. I’m sick of it being kept in there so the drug companies can save a few dollars. And you attack my conscience you cock sucker!
Redhead, how did subsequent epidemiological studies that “disproved” the link go about looking for it?
Rev, you should act like you understand the concept of caution. If it is unknown which level below which toxicity is absent, exposures to any level should be prevented, instead of waiting for the scientists to find out when they feel like doing so.
Joseph, what confounders did they have to account for to see the effect go away, to explain away those huge relative risks? What good were the later versions of the study when they eliminated the control group that was exposed to no thimerosal, and just compared children exposed to different levels of it?
“In essence, Lurker, it’s clear that you have some familiarity with the anti-vax talking points (some very old ones that no one uses anymore) that I’m guessing you got out of whale.to or AoA, but you just don’t have a depth of understanding of the state of debate in regards to those talking points. You need to frequent LB/RB or Respectful Insolence if you want to get up to speed.”
What is this intricate understanding you’re mentioning? What is being debated currenly by those who gave up on the old theories and started making up other theories? What is there to see on those two blogs? LB/RB doesn’t talk about the mercury theories anymore as the opponents haven’t contended about it as much anymore. I once saw a breakdown of one of the link debunking studies on that blog, and I thought the study was a mess, one reason being that a bunch of the cases that were supposed to be in the study left it, and that cases that leave the study would be more likely to have been severely affected by the conditions the study looked for.
David, I don’t know why you’re talking about lead to me. I don’t know about the autism rates in those countries. I also don’t know about their level of awareness over time as that could affect how many diagnoses they make.
“Barrier? Mercury and its methyl and ethyl compounds are soluble in cell membranes. They just pass through. No barrier.” I was thinking of the detoxification/sequestering that could happen in the intestines, from metallothionein.
“Show us that the safe level for ethylmercury is low enough to be surpassed by vaccination.” I don’t think there is an established safe level, or how much that level varies from one individual to another, so it’s not proven that levels that were in vaccines were safe.
“What government? You didn’t really believe all of us are Americans, did you?” I didn’t think of that. But what does it matter when so many of the other governments are denying the link? I feel the same argument I made would apply.
Stop moving the goalposts Lurker. You claimed there was no level of mercury that is safe. Trying to switch the topic to “caution” is changing the subject. You can throw out statements like that all day but they are worthless if you can not support them.
Support that statement with data. If you fail to do so, your point is exposed as more blabbering about things you know nothing about.
Yet you claimed that we know that there is no level of mercury that is safe. Now you are contradicting your self. Which is it? Do we know or not know?
And if you say we know. Back it up.
Rev, I didn’t really say that. There isn’t a known safe level, which would likely be extremely low. What data do I need to support the fact that there isn’t a known safe level for injection into children? Who can find that nonexistent figure? Caution isn’t a different subject. How does a lack of such facts about safe levels obviate caution towards the substance? Stop trying to remove all context from the arguments. What do you know about this? Where is your data? Maybe you shouldn’t make claims one way or the other if you have so little facts to offer. Back up what you claim.
Lurker, Science, you’re doing it wrong.
Large scale well run epidemiological studies showed no problematic effects due the amount of mercury in the vaccines in the old days. These are the gold standard studies for showing cause/effect in medicine. If they did show problems, show us the data from those studies or shut the fuck up. Your continued harping on that one refuted paper is tiresome and borderline neurotic. Deal with the fact it has been refuted and drop any mention of it.
Again, mercury has been removed from childhood vaccines without any decrease in the rate of autism. This is fact. Deal with it. And stop with the constant mercury/babies bit. It is just a lie these days.
If you think you have a better system for preserving vaccines, develop, test, and patent it, and sell it to the companies that make the vaccines. Oh, thats right, you just want to complain, snivel and act in a bad manner until other people do your bidding. We don’t buy your complaints. And you are at the wrong site for something to be done about it.
Why don’t you start a group, raise money, and fund your own research into the areas you think needs to be studied.
Redhead, I don’t take your word for it that those studies were done right. I don’t know where to find copies of those studies, but I would like to. There is no reliable proof that the rate of autism has remained the same or went up. Someone should show evidence besides the CDDS data to back that up. The question of prevalence changes is too vital to the controversy to be left to one faulty set of data.
Don’t ask me to do things like finding alternative preservatives or to raise money and fund my own research, because I don’t have the means to do those things. I would like to, but I can only hope someone else does so.
OCD
look it up, lurker.
Actually, I do get it: you like to use your lack of knowledge as an argument. That makes learning counterproductive.
same exact psychology as a die-hard creationist.
this is why I concluded long ago that creationism has far less to do with religion than it has to do with psychology.
I didn’t think of that.
As the old saying goes…
We could fill a library with the things you didn’t think of, and don’t know.
pathetic and sad.
Ichthyic, why?
Lurker, I didn’t say for you to do the research, but to the organization and fundraising so the research could get done. A lot of people have been affected by autism. They might be willing to donate money to find a cause. You might even be able to get a NIH grant if you get some facilities. But this approach requires you to do something constructive.
Nobody in science has to do your bidding or answer your questions. Get that out of your mind. We have tried to explain things to you, but you don’t want to listen to the answers as they don’t confirm your conspiracy theory. The studies mentioned above by Joseph and Kel are in the literature and can be found at most university libraries. If you have full article citation, you may be able to get the article through your local library via interlibrary loan. And some people/organizations are putting the articles into the public domain (internet) after a couple of years.
Ichthyic, why?
that’s the question I keep asking myself:
Why?
why are there so many people whose personal egos decide for them that a stance of complete ignorance is the preferred way to approach serious questions.
I’m sure there is some underlying specific psychological malady that propels you folks. Whether it’s something as simple as some variant of OCD seems unlikely, but the symptoms at least are specific, and show little variation no matter what area of knowledge the person involved has chosen to be in denial of (perhaps you noted the short list provided above?).
seriously, sometime you should sit down, and look at a forum where you are NOT on the side of the conspiracy theorists.
for example, you don’t think the moon landings were faked, do you?
go to one of the moon landing denier sites, compare the way you approach THIS issue with the way they approach that one, and see if a little light doesn’t come on in your head.
If it doesn’t, suggest you seek help from a mental health care professional.
…or at least stop using Orwell’s 1984 as an instruction manual.
“War is Peace”
“Freedom is Slavery”
“Ignorance is Strength”
you’ll never get very far in this endeavor utilizing your current approach, and that’s as nicely as I can put it.
seriously, sometime you should sit down, and look at a forum where you are NOT on the side of the conspiracy theorists…
That’s really good advice.
“but to the organization and fundraising so the research could get done. Redhead, a lot of people have been affected by autism. They might be willing to donate money to find a cause. You might even be able to get a NIH grant if you get some facilities.” Those are great ideas, but I personally don’t have the means to be involved with those things. I wouldn’t know where to start.
“Nobody in science has to do your bidding or answer your questions.” I guess not, but whose bidding do they have to answer to?
Not many studies have been even mentioned by Joseph and Kel. I would be willing to look at them and think about them. I have mentioned published studies, but have only received minimal response from some of you about them. There’s nothing I can do about that.
Since you aren’t presenting any unrefuted evidence, and won’t do the work necessary to see that the research you want done gets done, what next? Your ideas have been throughly discredited. So the only thing left is for you to declare victory and leave (this is what creobots do). Please do so.
Ichthyic, I don’t think that my reasoning is much similar at all to those who believe in false conspiracy theories. I feel I should fear people who think mental health professionals are there to neutralize people who hold opinions that are detested by dominant people. I think Orwell’s 1984 was misinterpreted and its points misused.
@lurker
I don’t know where to find copies of those studies, but I would like to.
Bullshit, and bullshit. The existence of PubMed is hardly a secret; it’s well-known to anyone and everyone with an interest in general medicine, immunology, epidemiology, and just plain biology. For that matter, there is “the Google” fer chrissakes. There is no excuse whatsoever for not finding and reading the data.
You show all the symptoms of being a TrueBelieverTM in the mercury/autism conspiracy. The TrueBelieversTM think nothing is wrong with them, just with everybody else who doesn’t agree with them.
Time to declare victory and leave.
Redhead, not all of the evidence I mentioned was refuted. You refuse to recognize any evidence to the contrary of your position as valid. So I guess there is nothing next.
All you alleged evidence was refuted by later studies. You just can’t believe that.
Redhead, I haven’t seen many of those studies. I looked at one of them that came out like a year ago and I repudiated that one. The other evidence I mentioned hasn’t been refuted well. The validity of the CDDC data upon which rests the conclusion that autism rates didn’t decline, was refuted by some people on your own side, and was even used by Geier, the guy whose credibility you reject. The only refutation of the porphyrin issue that I think is valid is the association with urbanicity.
Lurker, nobody here is going to look at anything you are trying to present. You have shown yourself to be woo artist and autism conspiracy believer. We do not associate with woo or conspiracy theories. You can find a more receptive audience elsewhere. We have been trying to tell you that for two days now. You are oblivious to our suggestions. So I will put it bluntly: Time for you to leave and find that other audience elsewhere.
*Begone*Lurker*Begone*
There are many confounds in data sets like that used by Verstraeten et al. For example, parents who don’t like vaccinations might also don’t want psychiatrists to label their kids. But more importantly, there was a coincidence of trends in the early 1990s. Children born in, say, 1990 might not have received as much thimerosal as children born in 1995. At the same time, children born in 1995 were more likely to be diagnosed with autism than children born in 1990. However, whereas an upward trend in thimerosal exposure only occurred in the early 1990s, the autism upward trend has been occurring ever since the condition was first described, to this day.
I think the Geiers understand the coincidence of trends very well, judging from their “studies”.
Redhead, I’m glad that you admit that you refuse to consider the evidence because you don’t like the theory, and want to dismiss it as crazy, while granting recognition to the theories of the dominant authorities. I think you don’t even want to debate it because you can’t win. I want to see if Joseph has anything else to say about the epidemiology studies.
It’s sort of a waste of time to explain things to you, Lurker, but here’s one more attempt. A hypothesis that is based on CDDS data can be falsified using CDDS data. This is completely logical, regardless of any issues the data might have. The thimerosal hypothesis is largely based on CDDS data and special education data.
Why do I say the thimerosal hypothesis is based on CDDS data? You have to look at Mark Blaxill’s presentation to the IOM (July 16, 2001). See page 10 specifically. This is a presentation of the thimerosal hypothesis by the foremost organization pushing the hypothesis at the time, SafeMinds. Do you see what it says? California cases, as recorded by CDDS, have been going up because thimerosal exposure has been going up. For 10 points, Lurker, what is a key prediction of this hypothesis?
Lurker, you have already lost the debate. Your facts and your interpretation of the facts are wrong. You acknowledge none of our evidence which refutes your pathetic ideas, so there is no real debate. Just you present bad facts and whine when your ideas and paranoia are refuted. The difference between you and creationist is subject matter. Creationists at least have the courtesy to declare victory and leave by now.
Joseph, time to quit feeding the troll.
“For example, parents who don’t like vaccinations might also don’t want psychiatrists to label their kids.” I don’t know how confirmed that trend is. I heard the CDC studies had many children who were too young to even be diagnosed, and that the later versions of the study eliminated the no exposure to thimerosal group. I heard if a study subject had more than one diagnosis, not all of them were considered for that study subject, ignoring subsequent diagnoses. I also heard some diagnoses weren’t considered as many likely happened after some of the study subjects were no longer enrolled in the HMOs they were in. I heard at some point the highest exposure group of 37.5 micrograms within hours after birth, which showed very high relative risks, was taken out of the study. What confirms that the upward trend of autism continued even after thimerosal levels stopped increasing?
I don’t agree that CDDS data should be used to prove the thimerosal theory. There have to be better ways to truly track prevalence over time.
“For 10 points, Lurker, what is a key prediction of this hypothesis?” I don’t know.
You don’t know, huh? Then stop typing because you don’t know what you’re talking about. You’ve been crushed by everyone here and fake pride is preventing you from admitting it.
No, I just mentioned the opinions of organisations that have read the studies. Giving you the studies would be like giving Casey Luskin the ecoli experiments; it seems you don’t know the first thing about what to do with them.
Though if you are willing to pay, there’s always here
This, this and this all seem to be free
So there, several broad studies that say no link. There’s a reason beyond conspiracy that all world health organisations say there’s no link. ;)
No, I just mentioned the opinions of organisations that have read the studies. Giving you the studies would be like giving Casey Luskin the ecoli experiments; it seems you don’t know the first thing about what to do with them.
This, this and this all seem to be free
So there, several broad studies that say no link. There’s a reason beyond conspiracy that all world health organisations say there’s no link. ;)
Do you not realise that it’s not the medical companies who fund the vaccines, it’s charities and welfare organisations. If they have to spend more on individual vaccines, then less people will get them. When something costs more, less is sent to the third world. In terms of problems facing the third world, the non-existent threat of thiomerosal is way way way down on the list. Do you not agree that measles, mumps rubella, polio, smallpox, malaria, AIDS, tuberculosis, clean water and food are higher priorities than (in your worst case scenario) a very slight in the autism rate?
If you don’t realise, the vast majority of people were vaccinated with those drugs yet autism is very rare in the population. Even if there were a causal link, it’s still going to be in an extremely small amount of cases. But of course, there’s no reason to even suggest that link is there; so many studies just not finding a link. It’s been declared safe, can you agree that even if it weren’t there are far bigger priorities in the world to solve and especially in the third world.
Kel, opinions of organizations aren’t studies. Don’t mangle words. I don’t know how the confounders were handled in the study of Denmark’s relative rates. In the 2003 Verstraeten et al study you mentioned, I don’t know why relative risks weren’t mentioned for autism in some of their tables. The study said something about a significant association with language delay.