So here’s another one. A West Virginia newspaper poll asks,
Should local governmental bodies be allowed to open their meetings with a prayer?
You know the answer to that one.
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
I cast my vote – current results
80% yes
20% no
Z
Might take a while if a few votes don’t alter the percentage.
Time to crash another pole!
I think it’s just that their software stinks. I casted, and it stayed at 80% yes. Clicked on ‘View Results’ and then it showed 65%. Wacky.
From the comments:
I always wonder what they are praying for.
Is it for good roads without taxes? Favorable assessments? Approval of business licenses?
Wow. Poll. It helps to read it first. So don’t go crashing into any poles now.
62% yes
38% no
I think we should clarify here that anyone in the government is free to pray to themselves or aloud as a citizen, but not acting as a government agent. Hopefully this will stave off the trolls, but I don’t think they understand the distinction.
For anybody that might question why we do this, this is why (from the comments):
Will they accept the ‘majority rule’ excuse when the majority is no longer on their side?
I’m a graduate of WVU.
While it’s true that the southern part of the state is mostly redneck nutjobs, the small cities are progressing somewhat. Morgantown has a good mix of people and is more tolerant than other parts of WV. Gov. Manchin is also a democrat, who isn’t completely off his rocker (yet).
The Bill of Rights is there to protect citizens from the tyranny of the majority in a democracy. If we went by strictly majority rule, blacks never would have gained rights in the South. It’s the same story every time; it’s so cyclical.
Oh Great Noodley One, please look favorably upon this meeting and bless us with sauce and meatballs.
NICE – when I voted, the results came back as :
YES – 62%
NO – 38%
After reading for a few minutes, I reloaded the page to see the following results:
YES – 46%
NO – 54:
And the lead changes hands!!
Sorry, just voting wasn’t enough… I had to leave a comment on the poll too.
Yes 46%
No 54%
That didn’t take too long.
I left my comment too. All fear the wrath of Odin! He has been kept outside of school and government for long enough. It’s time to take back our rights!
Looks like it’s already 63% for No.
Thanks, PZ and all. Now 38% yes 62% no.
Here’s one for you: Dalton McGuinty, the premier of Canada’s most populous province, has decided that the daily sessions of the Ontario Legislature will no longer open with the saying of the Lord’s Prayer. It’s just not inclusive enough:
The volume of comments on this decision has crashed the government’s Web site.
If you say yes, the next question will be:
Should local governmental bodies be allowed to open their meetings with a human sacrifice?
Yes my master. I will crash poll for you my master. Feed me brains master.
YES – 32%
NO – 68%
29% yes
71% no
“the 5,700 people who have written to the province so far about the proposal to replace the Lord’s Prayer”
And as in any political season, the number one issue in the people’s minds is Bullshit.
I wouldnt worry too much about those West Virginians, Eastern Panhandlers are generally pretty smart. Eastern and Northern Panhandle people are good people, it’s the jackson and randolph county folks that are stuck in a timewarp.
No 73
Yes 27
27% yes
73% no
26% Yes
74% No
Extra points to all the commenters there. Let’s keep reminding that democracy only works through convergence of views.
FTC:
Watch out for The Quickening…
YES 22%
NO 78%
I’ve always wondered: How omniscient are their gods anyway, if they can only hear prayers uttered aloud?
77% NO.
I’d say it’s crashed ;-)
Reginald @ 23. There is a real thick streak of christer in the EP. It’s better than is has been with all of the new people moving from the inner DC burbs out to here. The local rag panders to them shamelessly. I’m holding my breath for one local geniuses to suggest improvements to science education.
Why can’t they pray on their own time?
If they insist on praying, though, I’d really recommend they start with a reading of Matthew 6.5.
20/80 now.
It’s now 80% no, 20% yes.
Well there’s the Pharyngula Effect for you – 100% turnaround in just half an hour (time difference btw first post and the one before mine!)
As meaningless as this kind of poll is, I can’t help but think that messing with them like this is juvenile. In my opinion it reflect a kind of horde mentality that’s unworthy of most people here. Although it’s common knowledge that this kind of poll is intrinsically susceptible to skewing (not to mention mostly unrepresentative anyway because people tend to flock to where there biases lead them), I don’t see much of a difference in principle between poll bombing and, say, packing a cinema or lecture hall with a friendly audience. There has to be a better way of generating attention than this.
Martin
I love these poll-parties! Gives us lurkers a feeling of actually accomplishing something ;)
18 / 82
Bets on how low it can go?
I’d put mine on 1-5%, Yes.
Wow – when I said “one before mine” I should have said #28 – posts coming thick & fast here!
Yep, I just voted and got the same result: 80% no, 20% yes.
Pharyngula: Destroying people’s faith in polling data, one poll at a time.
I think this poll is inherently senseless and should be crashed. This is not an issue forwhich you appeal to the masses. They’re not picking the new color for M&Ms; this is a question that is easily answered by ignoring blinding bias and consulting the constitution.
The poll should just say, “Are you ignorant of the First Amendment: Yes or No?”
I think believers have the right to pray at home or church before they go to the meetings.
16 : 84
(that’s yes : no, by the way)
Just voted from work, looking forward to voting again from home. :)
And the odds that they’ll even report on the poll, about 97 to 3.
Yes 15%
No 85%
Gee, that was fun. Never did one of those stupid polls before.
.
Martin Christensen #34 “There has to be a better way of generating attention than this.”
Juvenile it may be, but it does show them that we are paying attention – and showing our concern wherever and whenever we can. The only way to stifle this never-ending woo-fest is to smack it down hard at every opportunity, politely but instantly every time it appears. I’m not even in the US but I am seriously concerned about what’s going on across the pond from me, and I don’t want it infecting my country (which is unfortunately already showing increasing signs of woo-festation.) If that means voting on silly online polls, then I’ll do it. I won’t cheat though – one vote only.
I’m now Alice Upright from Nitro, West Virginnie. Poll crashed. Comment left. Cousin married.
The problem is, Martin #34, that people who don’t know the difference between a median and a mean do think that these polls mean something. Think of it as the horde educating the masses in the folly of online polling.
Yes 14%
No 86%
@38 It’s not destroying polling data. In fact, it’s giving the poll a larger sample size. I dare say we’re improving the accuracy.
Also, if you click to see all the polls, there’s one at the bottom that reads “Should Berkeley County Schools and the County Commission cap funding for the public library?”
Yes 41%
No 59%
:/
…And you have such fun inciting us to crash them, PZ.
What part of “private” do these people not get?
I’m sure God won’t mind if you want to talk to him by yourself, instead of bringing a load of other irritating civil servants in at the same time. He might actually prefer it.
Re: Juvenile.
This happened where I live last year: A local newspaper columnist accepted a challenge to debate evolution with a shill from the Discovery Institute. The venue was a medium-sized hall, holding about 300 or so, and the debate was set for 7 p.m.
By 6 p.m., busloads of Christians were arriving to pack the hall. Almost nobody else got in.
The newspaper columnist got heckled and laughed at, the DI guy got applauded like it was some kind of prayer meeting.
The word had gone out, you see, that Christians needed to show up in large numbers to beat down this upstart columnist and to prevent anyone else from having a voice at the meeting.
As to “crashing” a poll … sauce for the goose.
(And I’m not even sure I like the term “crashing.” When does it start becoming dishonest when citizens post their honest responses? Sounds like Fox News logic to me.)
IMHO, this is another instance in which the maxim “The time to be silent is over” applies.
Why sit back and be quiet? So far it’s earned us nothing but a back seat on the American bus, and the freedom for everybody else to hate us.
Well, we are currently winning 20 v/s 80…
Anyhow i feel pity for you americans… luckily that
sort of thing, would never happen in my country…
Pray ? goes just as well as the politician lies…
Voted no…
While I got nothing against a moment of silence reserved at the beginning for _optional_ prayer, meditation, reflection, etc., as the individuals in attendance see fit, I’m completely against making it mandatory.
Its up to 11 vs 89. Go, Sanity!
10% Yes
90% No!
Go Banana!
I agree with Hank Fox (#52). Why is this thought to be crashing the poll? I don’t know about anyone else, but I only voted once and that seems fair enough to me. Do you have to be a newspaper subscriber to vote? They didn’t ask me to prove my WV residency status. I AM an American citizen. I don’t see the harm.
Should religious people be allowed to pray quietly in their own heads at the beginning of these meetings?
Sure! Keeps them from opening their mouths and removing all doubt!
I just wish I could see their faces and hear their rationalizations when they finally pull the poll.
Could this be the death of stupid Internet polls?
“While I got nothing against a moment of silence reserved at the beginning for _optional_ prayer, meditation, reflection, etc., as the individuals in attendance see fit, I’m completely against making it mandatory.”
Well, the question is simply whether they should be “allowed” to pray. To make prayer mandatory in such a setting is clearly a violation of the Establishment Clause. However, to actively suppress the choice of being allowed to pray (regardless of my personal opinion of it) is also treading perilously close to violating the same. The case would come down to whether a government official praying during work hours is, by definition, expending public funds on a faith-based initiative, even if he isn’t actively proselytizing. Of course, government already spends tax dollars on faith-based initiatives, and I’d sooner lay the smack down on that first, before worrying about whether Joe Crazy reserves the right to give a nod to The Great Goddess Eris (pbuh) before he gets down state business in the board room.
So this is what Atheists do now? They are so desperate
to get their point across on polls that make no difference whatsoever?
I have to admit. You guys have a lot of time on your hands. I am a theist and I don’t even have that much passion to go to every poll that you can find that has some form of religious decision on it and vote.
It sounds like some rabid video game fanboys trying to vote for their video game system and trying to mess with the polling systems.
Well, it’s true that the Internet has a lot of people who are not very mature. This kind of post on a blog to get people to vote for a meaningless poll sounds just about right for the audience on here.
No. Prayer doesn’t solve problems, it only creates them. Or, in its more benign form, just wastes my time so some fool can make a spectacle of himself.
But the Pharisee, he does love to put on the show.
Avast, ye intarnet poll. Stand and deliver.
I spent less time clicking “no” than you spent composing your screed, Kenny. You do have to admit something: it’s that you’re an idiot.
“Well, the question is simply whether they should be “allowed” to pray.”
–DSKS
No, the exact wording is “Should local governmental bodies be allowed to open their meetings with a prayer”, implying some sort of formalized group prayer. The members can pray silently any time they want, nobody is proposing to disallow them private prayer.
“Well, it’s true that the Internet has a lot of people who are not very mature. This kind of post on a blog to get people to vote for a meaningless poll sounds just about right for the audience on here.”
–Kenny
Hey, we didn’t post the meaningless poll. Our actions are only making the point that online polls like this are ridiculously pointless.
Just my two cents.
We are now officially into single digits for Yes. 9% Yes. 91% No.
Kenny,
Cheer up! What difference does it make to you? What is the difference between us voting on a poll and you commenting on this site?
Somehow we’re wasting out time but you’re not?
Perhaps you could pray for us.
Z
Cast mine:
9% Yes
91% No
How deliciously ironic…. ;)
Kenny:
Maybe you should pray for us to stop.
Hey! Only right wingers are allowed to skew polls! Just as the Free Republic. They do it so often the term Freeping was created for when they destroy the validity of polls by having teams of assholes skew the results their way just so they can flex their muscles.
Man… That thing went down in flames.
Online polls aren’t scientific, they’re mainly intended for talking points. That said, it was at 90/10 No/Yes when I voted.
Allow me to ask: Prayer ? to whom ? Mithra ? Zeus ? Jehovah ? Cthulhlu ?
Should the request for deific aid be said after the manner of the Catholics? Protestants? Southern Baptists, Jews? should it end with Amen or with Cthulhlu Ftgn! ?
Claiming it’s a Christian Nation does no good, because then it becomes necessary to decide which
Christianity. In any case, the entire Christian Nation gambit is merely a creation of the witch-doctors, who use it to further extend their control.
If individual members wish to spend a moment begging the dragon in their garage for aid, they can do so before the session opens.
And for the concerned in this thread, there is help.
Ah, lovely–West Virginia University. The folks who granted an MBA retroactivly to a Heather Bresch after she had completed 26 credits in a 48 credit program. I’m sure fact that the University president was a friend of her family and a former business associate of Ms. Bresch had nothing to do with her being awarded the degree. Luckily, the story got loose, the MBA was revoked, the provost and a dean resigned. Unfortunately, the University president is still in office (and probably the one hoping really hard that the power of prayer works).
Looks like the godidiots are falling behind…
9% Yes
91% no
Just got this from a fellow atheist:
XXXX: Well, I wouldn’t deny a member of a government body, who happened to have a broken foot, from coming to a meeting with their crutches…
Me: It’s not about a person with a broken foot coming out with crutches.
Me: it’s about a member with a broken foot forcing everyone else to use crutches whether they need or want them or not or whether they already have a wheelchair or anti-gravity flotation device or don’t believe in crutches at all..
They are asking for opinions, how is it in any way dodgy to give an honest one?
Kenny@62: “Well, it’s true that the Internet has a lot of people who are not very mature. This kind of post on a blog to get people to vote for a meaningless poll sounds just about right for the audience on here.”
Hank Fox@52: “The newspaper columnist got heckled and laughed at, the DI guy got applauded like it was some kind of prayer meeting.
The word had gone out, you see, that Christians needed to show up in large numbers to beat down this upstart columnist and to prevent anyone else from having a voice at the meeting. ”
So, Kenny… do you agree that busloads of heckling Christians packing a small auditorium for a science – antiscience debate is pathetic? Cant’ they make their points without drowning discourse? We are not interfering with the poll’s question; there is no argument to disrupt. There *is the implicit assumption that online polls provide useful information of some sort. If our altering the score by offering our votes disabuses anyone of that notion, then the world is a little better illuminated for it.
The simple way to answer that is to get on the panel and ask if they mind you opening with a prayer to Satan when it’s your turn.
We’re up to 92% “No” at this point. I love this group of ne’er do well poll crashing godless bastards. :)
Awake ye minions we have been called again onward and upward to battle by our Evil Atheist Overlord (TM). On to the fray my brethren, there’s smiting to be done. Huzzah.
9% yes, 91% no — and if I cleared my browser cookies, it let me vote again. (Of course, that vote might not have been counted, but the interface reset to the pre-voting configuration.)
Ahhh…clicking a radio button never felt so satisfying!
Kenny #62: I remember my life as a Fundie. I was like you; no sense of humor and no fun. Revive your sense of play dude! These polls mean nothing, and this is good clean democratic (note: not Democratic) fun.
Besides, as has been said earlier, what has sitting in silence gotten us?
Sometimes I love my state, and sometimes… not. This is one of the Nots.
Reginald @23:
Hey! Jackson and Randolph aren’t ALL bad! You should talk to some of the profs at D&E, especially in the social sciences… they’re just as liberal and atheist as anyone here.
Every poll? Wow, imagine that – another strawman from Kenny.
Oh, I’m sure we’ve missed a few. How many have Pharyngular poll-stomps have there been in the past year? Four, five, six maybe? I think I’ve done maybe two since New Year’s. I haven’t bothered with this one. Yet. :p
Kenny, just think of all the kittens spared from being flayed alive because we are too busy crashing polls?
Can you think of all the nasty things that atheists are known to do that can’t be done because we are too busy crashing polls? (Oh, I bet you can, Kennyboy). You should encourage us to crash polls, keeps us off the streets.
SPARE A KITTEN, CRASH A POLL!
Giving an honest answer to a public poll is not crashing the poll nor is it skewing the results because the results are the answers freely expressed by the public. Members of the public include GodBothering Souls, and BabyEating Souls, both groups assumed by their peers to be sober, thoughtful and patriotic citizens. I only voted once and I am a eating a baby now. Anybody vote twice? If you voted twice you are not nice at all.
92% No
8% Yes
At least it totals 100.
8% Yes
92% No
I’ve been calling friends who have been enthusiastically voting in this pole.
They chose their own responses, I influenced them to vote, but not how to vote.
That was Freudian.
Usually we are getting poled by the poll.
Same as 5 minutes ago, 8% Yes 92% No.
91-9 against when I voted.
I think we need proper outfits.
PZ gets a wide-brimmed conical hat in black and all his evil minions get red fez, bellhop jacket, and a pair of lovely monkey wings.
The proper syntax for doing his bidding is, of course: ‘Fly my pretties’.
@71 — the Freepers are on their way!
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2012138/posts
“The current “Top Headline Poll” on this page is being skewed by anti-Christian bigot PZ Myers and his Pzombies:”
Yes, there is that aspect as well. I voted once in the last public poll, and I expect to vote either one or zero times in this one.
Either way, I don’t eat babies. I steal baby dolls from toy stores, and trade them to blind drug dealers in exchange for really dangerous narcotics, which I mix with PopRox and Coke and suck up through a straw like the hungry, hungry hagfish that I am. :-)
….and your little dog, too!
Not enough information here. Did the taxpayers elect them to stand around and clap for Tinkerbelle? Or do they have some other job to do?
Don’t make me do it without the fez on.
Oh shit, kiddies and buccaneers, our cover is blown–
“Funny how EVERY SINGLE ONE of the Founding Fathers, INCLUDING JEFFERSON, never, ever had a problem with starting Congress’ sessions with prayer. The anti-Christian PZombies from PZ Myers’ blog (who are artificially skewing the poll) might benefit from considering that for a moment. (They won’t consider it, however.)”
—comment by jinxmchue @ 5:29pm.
Well, I guess that tears it. “Thar be a strong dissent!” And hysterical, oops, I mean historical, too.
Still the same as in #89 and #91:
YES
8%
NO
92%
92% NO
8% YES
Looks like PZ has more readers than the West Virginia Journal-News.
Comments 47, 49, 52, 65 and 77 bear repeating. And especially 87.
yes 39 %, no 61 %
Still.
Your majesty, the poll has been successfully crashed.
Our cover is blown, buccaneers and buccanettes. Oh, woe. Witness–
“Funny how EVERY SINGLE ONE of the Founding Fathers, INCLUDING JEFFERSON, never, ever had a problem with starting Congress’ sessions with prayer. The anti-Christian PZombies from PZ Myers’ blog (who are artificially skewing the poll) might benefit from considering that for a moment. (They won’t consider it, however.)”
–comment posted on the poll website.
Answering a routine poll question, $0.01; causing the results to more accurately reflect widespread opinion, $2.00; listening to the lamentations of the faithful, name your price!
@Susan (post #93)
Great first time I’ve seen a poll war on the web :)
BURN KENNY!
Doesn’t surprise me at all.
Now, how many freepers are there left?
(Kseniya, vote already. And then leave a comment.)
I actually think that comment isn’t by Kenny but by someone who wants to parodize him.
Kseniya, you don’t eat babies? Oh, they are so tasty and tender. Like chewing on untanned leather. Mmm, good.
What kind of atheist are you? Please do your part to maintain our image as inimitable to all of life. Imagine how bashful we would be made to feel if it became widely known that we really like our fellow humans. (Especially slow cooked.)
Tell me more about your baby doll dodge. Maybe I can adapt it to my own needs. Just make sure to tell me either once or not at all. ;->
92% NO.
Someone in the comments on that poll said
“Yes, the handful of mindless, obedient poll skewers on PZ Myers’ blog have spoken! Praise polls! Praise PZ!”
I’m not sure what point is being made. We’re not allowed a vote? Why not? We may not all be from Virginia, but this matter DOES affect us?
Maybe it’s because a lot of us are athiests and thus, not really even citizens at all.
Ugh, where have I seen that douche jinxmchue’s name before?
Right now its a 7-93
What I want to know is the total number of people who voted… Anyone know how to find this number?
Well here at Luten, it’s a three-cornered contest between, from left to right: Alan Jones, Sensible Party; Tarquin Fintimlimbimlimbimwhimbimlin Bus Stop Ftang Ftang Olay Biscuit Barrel, Silly Party; and Kevin Phillips Bong, who is running on the Slightly Silly ticket. And here’s the results.
Alan Jones (Sensible): 9,112. Kevin Phillips Bong (Slightly Silly): Naught. Tarquin Fintimlimbimlimbimwhinbimlin Bus Stop Ftang Ftang Olay Biscuit Barrel (Silly): 12,441.
Re #102:
“Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom? In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U. S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them, and these are to be paid out of the national taxes. Does this not involve the principle of a national establishment, applicable to a provision for a religious worship for the Constituent as well as of the representative Body, approved by the majority, and conducted by Ministers of religion paid by the entire nation?” James Madison
The autumn mermaid spoke:
All “honest” polls and all “truthful” science confirm what authoritarians already know.
I don’t. My doctor says I’ve got to watch my cholesterol. I can shred bibles and kill kittens, but no more eating babies as they are too high in fat.
oooo, can I have Moses’s babies?
wait…that didn’t come out right…
If people want to pray for guidance in their jobs I guess that’s OK. How am I to stop them? If they don’t know their jobs well enough to just pile in and get ‘er done then I guess that’s their problem. Maybe, by applying themselves diligently and learning from the mistakes of others (we call that history), they can enjoy the accolades and respect of their fellow citizens, not to mention feeling fundamentally better about themselves. But to ask me to pay for prayer time? For secret ritual? To ask anyone to pay for it? Where is their god when they need it? Get the god to pay for the damned ritual supplication! Can’t? TS.
Prayer is just one more aspect of the yearning of humanity to be more than it is. Like a scrawny fourth-grader imagining a starting position on the varsity football team. Parents will encourage the intent but, if smart, will not underwrite the cost if the boy shows no talent. Perhaps, then, the swim team? Or volleyball? Failing all, cheering?
Who will agree to fund appeals to any and all ISS*? Certainly not those whose faith is vested in only one, or several, or none of them. Why then assume that anyone else will?
Deciding which projects, what funding, and how to administrate local business seems to be much more important that what deity one implores for instruction on how to do so. The faith value that the voters expressed in electing them to office should surely fulfill this need.
Faith, the poor cousin of certainty which is the child of knowledge which is a stranger to so many.
*Invisible Supernatural Spooks
Well then, Moses, listen to your doctor. Unless he prays for guidance while you are in the examination room.
Screechy Monkey, thanks for the Madison quote. I’ve heard it before, then lost it but now have found it again due to your gracious and thorough scholarship.
(I should just come here and post questions. Better than an encyclopedia. Whoa! How about a “Pharyglopedia” of arcane, unusual, offbeat, but authoritative answers to questions we all would like to ask but don’t know who to address the questions to? I mean, if someone here doesn’t know an answer then was there a question?)
I really like this place.
“Should local governmental bodies be allowed to open their meetings with a prayer?”
Of course, they should! Provided of course they give equal time to every religion extant in the world right now. Not just the common ones–let’s go all out. If you want to open up with a prayer to the old bearded white guy, then you should also have a voodoo priest come in and sacrifice a live chicken or two (makes for good snacks during the meeting break). And, you should top off the prayer portion of the night with whatever substitute the atheists would like (say a nice game of Scrabble, or a scientific discussion about recent advances in evolution theory). Of course, if every religion (and lack thereof) gets equal time, then nothing will get done. But, if they’re relying on prayer to help them, not much productive is going on anyway…
Maybe they should pray harder for their poll to tilt back the way they want.
Still, I’m all for people’s right to pray whenever they want. Whatever you want to do that doesn’t bother anyone else, you go right ahead.
However, I’m against people forcing others to be quiet or pretend to join them in prayer, which is obviously what is meant by the poll.
So I did my part to embiggen the sample size.
Why the talk of ‘crashing’ or ‘skewing’ ?
A poll is posted, they want responses from as many people as they can. They have them.
I do object to hacking polls i.e. casting mutliple votes, scripting or manipulating results, but no one can or should complain about people honestly voting their view.
93% NOOO!!! at this point, although I do feel like somewhat of a charlatan voting from the UK (whilst a mite tipsy!)
Thanks. That’s the most fun I’ve had with a mouse in days.
Jonathan #122: I don’t see a problem with that. It’s the Internet. It’s global (a fact that a great deal of Americans tend to forget, in my experience). It doesn’t specifically say that only U.S. citizens are allowed to vote. The question is “Should local governmental bodies be allowed to open their meetings with a prayer?” – doesn’t say U.S. governmental bodies. I certainly don’t want MY local council here in Birmingham England to start mucking about with prayer sessions. So I voted with a clear conscience!
It’s fun to see the xians squirm for a change!
Yep. 93. Which is about what the Celtics will score against the Cavaliers’ eighty-odd. Bye. Gotta go to the game. Keep the faith (in the background). Go Celts!
E Pluribus Unum
#93
“Pzombies”?
I like it! At least for occasions like this. “Pharyngulistas” is another favourite.
Aren’t you the guy who was expelled?
Some zealot will click yes on that assuming maybe 50/50 and have a heart attack 93% NO
Excellent, now we’re up to 94/6.
Living in a conservative area of NE USA, it’s palliative seeing a gleeful crowd of hundreds of happy godless liberals annihilating a small newspaper poll. I do have some sympathy (I mean, they’re totally helpless), but it’s entertaining nevertheless.
Hopefully, we will one day live in a world where elementary school music teachers don’t brainwash innocent 4th-graders by “Preachin’ Jesus” to them. Amen. *ptoooh*
Anyway, keep up the good work boys!
@#129 Chironex —
Helpless? Not at all. All they have to do is pray…if they just pray hard enough…well, God works in strange and mysterious ways.
[dissolve-in-flashlight-below-P.Z.’s-face]
I AM P.Z., AND I COMMAND ALL OF MY MINIONS TO: [insert-really-bad-atheist-thingy-here]!…
YES, IT IS ACCOMPLISHED!…
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA…
[fade-to-black]
@#109 OctoberMermaid —
How ’bout it Kenny? Did you really write that comment? Was it an imposter. (Or are you going to take credit for another person’s “good work” like so many religious nutjobs do?)
((I’m honestly curious, actually. When I first saw it, I was sure it was a parody. Then I couldn’t think of why someone would feel the need to parody someone who is already a self-parody. Then I just stopped thinking about it and found better ways to use my mental energy.))
Did you guys notice who is leading the discussion at the poll site? None other than jinxmchue, who could very well also be jinx72 on the Freeper site, of dungeon fame. I clicked on the link to his blog from the dungeon, I think that he got even nuttier!
@ #130:
>>@#129 Chironex —
>>
>> I do have some sympathy (I mean, they’re totally helpless), but it’s entertaining nevertheless.
>>
>>Helpless? Not at all. All they have to do is pray…if they just pray hard enough…well, God works in strange and mysterious ways.
OK, ok, ha, ha. But seriously…we are such an alert and attentive community that very rarely can the Fundie Whangdoodles actually triumph over us in any way, shape or form. Just look at our school systems. Someone teaches ID, the school is sued and loses. And on Youtube, pro-Christian vids receive far more criticism than praise. This is why I call them helpless.
Amazing. I just checked and Jim Haught is still the editor of the Charlston Gazette in West Virginia. Mr. Haught wrote some classic editorials and books on atheism. I guessed they would have chased him out of the state by now.
I don’t mind someone fervently praying for me to have success in my job… provided the person praying is the person responsible for my paycheck and promotions. :D
@#133 Chironex —
Hey, the Freepers are trying…and their frustration is hilarious.
No matter how much they talk about how internet polls aren’t representative of actual public opinion (true, of course), they can’t help but get upset when their view, which they routinely support using argumentum ad populum, is losing.
It is interesting that despite being a minority and despite the “hearding cats” mentality, atheists have managed to be such a vocal and effective group on the internet. It kind of makes intuitive sense to me, but I’m not sure why.
Chironex, don’t be fooled. We just watched Bush roll right over dissent and disagreement for the past 7.5 years. And it was just a matter of saying “to hell with it” and doing it. If they get past this sticky little matter of caring what the public thinks, they can do anything they want.
SOME OF THESE PEOPLE WANT TO END THE WORLD. And presidents listen to them.
We’re a bunch of sedate intellectuals. They’re fanatics with guns, judges, vast wealth, and votes. They really do own the United States, and we’re all allowed to live here only because of a social contract that’s not chiseled in stone. If the stupidity level descends past some unknown mark, and the hate level rises past some unknown threshold, they could rise up and crush us all.
Sorry about the Nazi reference, but … I’ll bet all those people in Germany were equally confident that they lived in a safe and sane country.
As Han Solo said to Luke Skywalker, “Great, kid! Don’t get cocky!”
There’s been a case like this around here. A mayor of some nowhere town was always opening his councils with a prayer. There were a lot of motions to make him stop. And I think they worked but I can’t remember for sure. Myself, I didn’t care he prayed. The folks that elected him knew he was a religious nutcracker, and they had what they voted for. You just hear the guy on the radio and you think “What the heck is he talking about? Did they seriously elect that THING?”
If anything, let him continue and give the good folks a reason to vote against him. That goes for any council.
96% opposed to prayer
ROFL
Chironex @#133
I think ‘Hopeless’ is the word you’re after there…
@ #136:
>>Sorry about the Nazi reference, but … I’ll bet all those people in Germany were equally confident that they lived in a safe and sane country.
That’s actually an excellent point, Hank. Ya know, I never realized that. And it’s especially meaningful to me too; I’m Jewish. XD
The moment that prayer in school is legalized and abortion is illegalized, I’m movin’ to Canada.
…hypothetically. Realistically, I’m only 14.
@#136
Indeed.
The basis of George Bush’s views on Iran & Israel have never been so terrifyingly evident.
Aww, the coments section of the poll is screwing up, I can’t read ALL the inanity :(
I do like the term PZombie though, clever fundies DO exist. Pharyngulite sounds like an old testament religion though, and that’s pretty hardcore.
Still 94% NO :)
If you want to come to canada go for it, just stay east! theres a creation museum here in alberta *shudder*
Ah yes, I believe I’ve heard of that… (>_<)
A most perceptive comment, Chironex. Are you sure you’re only 14?
You do realize that if all like minded folks (such as you) were to actually move to Canada that the net effect would be to impose upon the good people of Canada the same impositions that you left America to escape? You would take them with you, child.
Attaboy, way to go.
As of May 6th, 8pm PST:
YES 6%
NO 94%
Man, you really need to figure out how to do this on election day.
Can you please get rid of Hillary and Rev Wright already and get on with it.
OK, I was wrong. the Celtics only scored 76 points against the Cav’s 72. LeBron was shut down. It has been demonstrated that I do not know everything and my predictive skills are not very impressive. Now, what were we talking about?
Oh, yes! Opinion. Would you like to know mine?
I’m afraid I don’t understand your comment, Crudely. I would have escaped America to avoid the impositions of Fundamentalist thought…but how would a mass liberal movement to Canada impose fundamentalism on them?
Actually, wait, I’m 24! That’s right! Up…wait, no, that’s a 1, not a 2. Nope, I’m 14 :-)
Go where you will, girl. You will not escape the madness of others.
You ask, “but how would a mass liberal movement to Canada impose fundamentalism on them? and I answer thusly:
Liberals are not all of the same stripe. Fundamentalism is a trap for them as much as it is for conservatives. But those labels are insufficient to describe the similarities between the two. Be assured that idiocy can take any form and be as alluring to you as a flower is to a bee. You will grow, you will be offended, you will learn. As you should. Welcome, young one.
If you want to come to canada go for it, just stay east! theres a creation museum here in alberta *shudder*
Yeah, but that’s in Big Valley. The Tyrell is just a few diplodoci away.
The rest of the province is an utopia of rational and reasoned discourse.
OK, I lied. Well, at least it’s not the US.
Impose away! We don’t mind. We need more smart people. Especially here in Alberta. Oil revenues and the mean IQ of a population seem to enjoy an inverse relationship.
Hmm. Brownian, I would say to go west. “The west is the best” according to The Doors and besides, I grew up with a cowboy father. Call me influenced.
Git up air! G’wan girls! (I’m punching cows in my memories.)
Really though, the trend of science and technology has been generally from east to west. Not that it means the same as the path of the sun in the sky and all . . .
But maybe we have a predilection for a certain direction? Like the handedness that organic molecules exhibit? Hell, I don’t know. I’m just learning to talk with people that know more than I.
@ #149:
>>Go where you will, girl. You will not escape the madness of others.
True. Oh, and guess what? I’m a Boy!!!
Sorry for being blunt, it’s just that that was a HUGE assumption. X-)
Well, in that case, Brownian, I would heartily encourage Chironex to head north forthwith. Given her demonstrated intelligence and the US’s increasing dependence on imported oil (Canada being the source of most oil importation), her advent in your splendid country might be good for both our nations!
*yawn* I’m going to bed now. G’nite, ladies.
Oh.
I am guilty as charged.
Well, if it heartens you, I’m not a rookie when it comes to foot in mouth disease and as a result I can land on my feet if you will simply forgive my ignorant assumption.
And to pull a stooge move in such a public place! Boy, you’d think I’da learnt by now to not judge by appearance. I apologize most humbly to you.
It must have been the -ix ending to your name. I have long associated that with the feminine gender. Shows how much I have yet to learn.
Goodnight, then, me hearty. Thar be a rascal and an andy shipmate!
Er, the -ex ending. It must be late. Forgive again? An old fool?
Now, Brownian. Just how long is a “few diplodoci?” Is it like How Long is a Chinaman?
I grew up in Alberta. It’s more like Texas than any other place in Canada, but that’s relative. It’s still a far cry from the truly inimicable right wing kookery one sees in certain US states.
At least I hope so. I was born in that bastion of socialism known as Edmonton, so perhaps my memories are biased.
(My apologies to the many Texans who are not kooks. I’m actually going to be joining you in a few months.)
From the comments associated with the poll:
“Okay, tell you what – I’ll contact the website administrators. They can easily check how many votes come from each IP address. How much do you want to bet the majority of votes are coming from a small handful of IP addresses? Seriously, put something of value on the line. I want to see if your arse is willing to cash a check that your mouth signs.”
Dollars to donuts that the author of this remark would not live up to his/her end of the bargain.
Ok, I voted, and left a stupid comment.
My work is done here.
Oh, Wrott: Steal a baby doll from a toy store, either by shoplifting or by breaking in in the dead of night. If you’re feeling generous, rip open a seam and stuff in a bunch of candy (salt water taffy works well), sew it back up, then trade the doll to a blind drug dealer – who will think it’s a sweet-smelling real baby – for lots of dangerous narcotics. It works every time.
The PopRox and Coke thing, well… YMMV.
I’ll try it, Kseniya. But it will have to wait till after sleep. Such a long day . . .
Thanks for the coaching. It all seems so simple to hear you explain it. I think I did this once.
Sleep well, wake eager. Smile often.
Thanks; I’ll try. I’m very stressed-out and worn-out. I’ll be fine in a week or two. Summer! Work, play, and no spirit-crushing load of assignments.
Etha Williams (#136):
The Internet is very good at providing catnip and tuna.
Okay, I posted another comment. Mostly because that jinx person seems to be hovering around, waiting to pounce. What a dink.
Whaddaya mean, ‘herding cats’? I’m a mindless automaton, corrupted by an anti-religious school system. (I’m not sure how that squares with the religious upbringing and schooling I seem to remember, but as a PZombie, I must obey my master.)
As of May 7, 1:46 EST, still holding 96% to 4% in our favor.
Interesting poll. I think perhaps they could be *allowed* to pray. They just shouldn’t.
Should local governmental bodies be allowed to open their meetings with a prayer?
My vote would have been no. Like all government sponsored prayers such as the one congress opens up with are highly watered down in an attempt accommodate everyone’s religion. There is no such prayer which appeals to everyone nor appeals to every religion. Not a good idea, at the very most, a moment of silence.
That’s twice now we’ve agreed on something! :-D
The Internet is very good at providing catnip and tuna.
mmm, tuna.
*drool*
“PZombie”.
Was that an intended reference to the philosophical concept, or merely coincidental?…
From Edmonton? Oil? Yes, there are some of “us” even in the oil industry in Texas. If you’re a drafter or engineer or engineering manager, and you work for the “stealth logo,” you’ll run across me at some point. :D
94:6 just now.
>Maybe you should pray for us to stop.
I thought common sense would have done that easily, but I guess not. Then again you are an atheist, so common sense and things that are obvious are for idiots.
Kenny mused thus:
Common sense, Kenneth m’boy? Do tell us all about this “common” sense!
Given the high percentage of mouthbreathing, pinheaded, superstitious peasants in the US population, Kenneth, it seems to me that sense is anything but “common”.
So do tell us what you think this “common” sense is. Please do.
>I spent less time clicking “no” than you spent composing
>your screed, Kenny. You do have to admit something: it’s
>that you’re an idiot.
yeah, dustin that should tell me! Look, you calling me an idiot means that I am on the right track. These are desperate times for atheists and it shows.
As I have mentioned, the only time I have seen this desperation is when you have fanboys who’s video game console is losing marketshare and they have to act like 10 year olds to protect it. Same thing here.
Honestly and I don’t mean this as an insult. I really mean this in an honest way. I am less and less impressed with atheists on the way they act, to the way they try to get people involved with their movement. They are not cleaver nor intelligent.
I see people that are scared, desperate, and trying to do everything they can to get rid of religion and I can see it coming down to violence even though they swear that it won’t and that they are far too advanced and civil for that.
So when you call me an idiot, I just laugh because it does not affect me personally and I know how hard they are working to get rid of anything religious or supernatural, but it’s really not up to them is it? I just know I am on the right path.
Just like there are many fake sciences like ID, there are many fake occults like scientology. You know about ID, but you don’t know about the Occults (you lump everything together for occults and religions under one roof and say they are all crap and myths). That is not true.
>BURN KENNY!
That post was not made by me. It was made by a desperate person who is probably an atheist. People on here are getting really desperate to the point of insanity. As I said I believe it will eventually lead to violence as they won’t be able to take the truth much longer.
Christians will be eventually put to death and it will be people with the same ideals in this forum that probably lead the charge (even if they admit that they will not, the temptation will be too great).
I honestly think Kenny is just a really dedicated Poe, I mean c’mon, he couldn’t be anything else.
Yes 95%, No 5% at 4:04 CST
“(My apologies to the many Texans who are not kooks. I’m actually going to be joining you in a few months.)”
amphiox, I hope you’re coming to Austin . . . you’d like our town, affectionately known as The People’s Republic of Austin. But I’ll bet you’re going to Houston if you’re in oil. That’s not so great, and the weather’s a bitch over that way.
At any rate, welcome to Texas. It’s a whole other country.
>How ’bout it Kenny? Did you really write that comment? Was
>it an imposter. (Or are you going to take credit for
>another person’s “good work” like so many religious
>nutjobs do?
It wasn’t me. I would have wrote something a little more witty. If there are religious nutjobs, there also have to be atheist nutjobs too. You can’t have one without the other.
#179 – I just know I am on the right path.
A wonderfully concise illustration of the religious mindset. They all just KNOW.
Currently: 6% Yes, 94% No
I’m slightly surprised that there seems to be more pharyngulites with a second to spare than freepers.
Always a pleasure, never a chore!
I was just up in the region of this paper a couple of weekends ago, visiting some in-laws. The editorial bent is what you might call “conservative”.
Also, I take exception to the idea that sensible folk are confined to the panhandles. There are plenty of smart, non-crazy folk down in the southern end of the state. We just leave at the first opportunity because there’s no work.
@Kenny
“trying to do everything they can to get rid of religion”
Surely, you mean “trying to do everything they can to stop religion from being forced on them”, right?
Just had to join in !! 6 YES 94 NO
Remember folks “vote early, vote often”
Kenny making claims about common sense is like Adolf Hitler making claims about gangsta rap.
Crumb! INSTANT GODWIN! I lose. :-(
@ #185:
It wasn’t me. I would have wrote something a little more witty.
That’s the spirit! You’re halfway there: keep trying!
You don’t know. You believe. It’s about time you learnt the difference.
What for?
Really, what have you smoked, and can I get it legally in the godless Netherlands?
Kenny’s projection is hilarious and disturbing at the same time.
And the poll is still holding at 94/6 for the good guys.
Kenny (#181) re: atheists:
Indeed.
Kenny said,
“Christians will be eventually put to death and it will be people with the same ideals in this forum that probably lead the charge…”
Why do you care? You christians will all be up in heaven grooving with Jesus-man, gloating at the screams and gnashing of teeth of atheists as we burn in hell. Right?
@#196 David Marjanovic —
I think he’s “smoked” the good book of Revelations (and some “supporting” end-times material in other books), based on his comment in the “God arrested” thread.
Looks like Kenny’s a dispensational premillenialist…why am I not surprised?
@#185 Kenny —
Sure. But religion gives people an excuse to be a nutjob — it tells them their insanity is not only ok, it’s holy. If you tell an atheist that God has a special mission for you and you alone and that He has been speaking to you, he’ll recognize quite rightly that you’re insane. Tell a religious person this, and they’ll say, “Praise the Lord!”
Religion isn’t a necessity for being insane, but it sure helps.
I love to crash polls.
Hey, you mean the stupid troll Jinx tried to turn out the Freeper vote, and we still crushed them?
I’m impressed.
Well done!
96 to 4!
“It’s more like Texas than any other place in Canada, but that’s relative.”
Maybe that’s because a lot of American oil-patch Southerners moved there in past decades to work in the industry.
I posted this!
Matt 6:5-6 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.”
“Say nothing of my religion. It is known to God and myself alone.” – Thomas Jefferson
They hate it when you have evidence, don’t they? ^_^
Uh-oh, PZ. Someone told on you…
(from the comments)
“Its not a few obsessive individuals obliterating your silly poll. its a PZombie apocalypse. Several thousand amoral godless drones have shown up to make you religious nuts look silly. It IS possible for a large number (not just one or two, but a LOT) of people find your worldview reprihensible. It happens from time to time. *******scienceblogs****/pharyngula/2008/05/you_all_have_such_fun_crashing.php”
Why is it that the “amoral godless drones” seem to be able to spell and punctuate so much better than these crazies?
Oh, and it was still 94% No and 6% Yes when I voted. Good work, everyone!
I repeat: How many freepers are there left anymore, with Captain Unelected’s approval ratings hovering just above the absolute minimum of 27 %?
Oh, that makes sense.
In that case he should open his eyes and read this. From top to bottom.
Unfortunately I live in southern West Virginia, and it is truly a haven for rednecks, wackos and the highly, yet very proud, uneducated. My town is Hurricane; we actually have one hospital which was, until recently, the focus of many lawsuits due to doctors practicing there without a license, reuse of medical tools without sterilization, among other atrocities. My son was taken there when he was very sick (he was two, just last year) and the doctor on staff diagnosed him improperly and caused some problems.
However, there are a shitload of churches; dozens of them, and I do not exaggerate. They are all over the place, yet we have only a single, shitty hospital. I wrote a letter to the editor of a local paper in response to an article where a woman thanked gawd for curing her cancer; this his how stupid these people are. I politely implied that perhaps next time she simply pray and avoid those evil hospitals, but of course it was never printed.
Sorry if I’m ranting a bit or even OT, but this area of the state truly sucks ass.
Actually I’m not involved in any way with the oil industry (except that I use their products)
It’s just a coincidence that I was born in Alberta and will be moving to Texas soon.
Or could it be all part of some divine plan? I suppose that depends on what your definition of “divine” is.
(Is the Jinx over there our Jinx?)
Kenny said,
“Christians will be eventually put to death and it will be people with the same ideals in this forum that probably lead the charge…”
Oh, you poor, poor, POOR persecuted majority!
Will you Fundies ever get over your ridiculous persecution complex? GROW UP, KENNY!
GROW. UP.
Depending on which poll you believe and how you defined atheism, the number of Christians in the USA for every atheist is somewhere between 8 and 200. Even if your ridiculous, paranoid assertion had any basis in fact, these number suggest what should be glaringly obvious to anyone with a shred of that “common sense” so’re so fond of evoking.
The only one talking about killing is YOU. Are you showing us glimpses into your *cough* deeper mind, Kenny? Your subconscious and unholy wish to put atheists to death is in conflict with some of your other, more peaceful beliefs, and so you project that desire upon you would-be targets? Nice.
Examine your beliefs and your motives, Kenny. Deeply.
Oops, I mean “invoking”… “evoking” is completely wrong in that context.
*mutter*
@ Richard #210
I can believe you. It’s especially bad back in the areas where the coal is mined out. Driving on US 52 through McDowell should be a requirement for anyone wanting to understand the links between poverty, education, and religion.
Regular driving on that road is what helped me develop my hypothesis of “The more words there are in your church name, the more likely it is you focus on a single doctrine, passage, or verse to the exclusion of all else.”
Ranson @ 214. Is that Ranson as in the EP Ranson, or Ranson from another context?
@tom,
Sorry, no EP here. It’s a handle I’ve been using regularly for about 10 yrs, originally from Robert Anson Heinlein.
@#212 Kseniya —
Probably not, considering the great value the NT puts on being persecuted:
They *want* to be persecuted, and now that they’re the ones in power and they’re the ones who have been persecuting people, they have to make up some elaborate masochistic fantasy in which the evil atheists are coming to kill them.
It would be pathetic if it weren’t such a strongly held conviction.
With regards to Kenny’s comment about how he’s noticed a decline in the quality of atheistic arguments et al… He may be on to something, but not for the reasons he suspects:
http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2008/03/on-the-amazingn.html
It’s a very interesting post, very much worth reading.
LMFWAO!!!! THat’s my state!!!!!!!!! Hahahaha.
THANK YOU FOR CRASHING THE POLL!!!!
Etha: Yes, exactly.
Steven / Greta Christina: Yes, exactly. ;-)
Yup. That’s the goal: Normalcy.
Well, I’ll be sad to see you leave the City of Champions amphiox. If we ever do extend the LRT out to WEM, I’ll always think of you when riding it.
The reason that people like Kenny spout such nonsense is that they know that what they believe is a set of lies.
To avoid acknowledging their own gullibility they spout ever more nonsensical & contradictory justifications for their pseudo-beliefs.
It is clear that the behavior of most “Believers” is the antithesis of the prescribed behaviors of their own belief systems. They are liars & hypocrites to the core.
They lie to themselves as loudly as they lie to the world.
They spew hate & fantasies of violence, yet call themselves victims whenever anyone opposes their venom.
p.s.
Still 94% NO . . . . . 6% YES
Seems that the holy rollers can’t even generate any backlash against us heathens.
Even in West Virginia!
Just remember the number of good Christians who said they felt “violated” and “made into second-class citizens” when a non-Christian opened a dang sporting event with an ecumenical prayer.
That’s a perfect example, Monado. They want the whole pie, they claim the entire pie was always theirs, they resent anyone who points out that the pie belongs to everyone, and revile anyone with the nerve to actually take a piece. The same thing happened when a Hindu holy man was invited to open a session of Congress. Protests! Anger! Alarm!
Pathetic, selfish children. Pffft.
So, my wee little comment probably won’t get read all the way down here, but, I figured I would share.
I work for the county government in a medium-sized city in a Southern state. Last year–right before Christmas holidays–I attended a county function. Nothing huge, just a luncheon recognizing certain people who had been with the county for requisite number of years. I myself wasn’t getting recognized, but it was an open invitation, and I was attracted by the thought of some time out of the lab….
Notice this is a county function. Paid by the taxpayers. During the workday. For the effin’ government!
It was like sitting through church. There was not just an opening prayer, but also a blessing of the food. The first prayer leader at least made an attempt to include others, by inviting us to pray according to our own beliefs, etc., before stating “These are mine,” and launching into a Christian prayer. The second leader didn’t even attempt inclusion, she led us in a “In Jesus’ name, we pray” prayer.
Very Jesus-centric Christmas music blared over the PA system, and our “entertainment” consisted of a lady from accounting singing a song about how thankful we are to Mary for giving us her son.
I was half amused, and half horrified, throughout the entire ordeal. Usually, if I am in a church or somebody’s house, or even a private function, I will be respectful and quiet, and bow my head during prayer, even if in my mind I am actually thinking about how silly it all is. But in this case, I could not summon up that sort of respect. I stared at the ceiling and rolled my eyes. I simply could not believe that this was what taxpayer money was being spent on–county employee salaries so that we could go and be preached to. I will not be attending another one of those functions.
But yeah, to relate to the subject at hand–they make you *think* that all they want is a teeny tiny innocent wittle prayer at the beginning of a meeting. But no…you give a prayer, and they turn it into church. I do not support this.
EntoAggie:
You don’t happen to be my wife, do you? That story is damned familiar, down to most of the details . . .
@227, “…my wee little comment probably won’t get read all the way down here…”
I read it. If you _had_ been one of the recognized guests, then you most certainly should’ve objected and praised something non-Xian — be it Zeus, FSM, a balrog, etc. — to rattle their frozen skulls a little. “Maybe next time…”, sayeth They.
Doh! For the record, the poll that this entire post addresses is currently:
8% Yes
92% No
I’m still having fun on their comments page. They automatically **** out “hell”.
At present:
91% NO
9% YES
The “poll” is still up.
The holy rollers have got the score down to:
88% NO
12% YES
It only took them four days without us rascally atheists voting to get those 3 points.