Comments

1. aquietvoice says

   August 18, 2017 at 12:53 am

   New commenter, apologies for poor formatting.
   Hey there! I found myself in a pretty similar situation a while back, also while pondering nazis. Lets see how much we have in parallel 🙂
   /
   I see a lot of people, people who at one point in their lives decided to reject violence, killing and aggression as a means to support their ideology -- I know I did, and I’d guess you’ve done the same at some point in the past.
   /
   Which is good! Having a society in which violence is bad, killing is shocking and awful, and aggression is not the go-to solution for problems is pretty cool, pretty neat. Lots of people getting along, lots of listening and working things out properly, just a big block of doing what good you can, everyday, for as long as you can.
   \\
   I’ll take another guess and say that your opposition to violence, aggression and killing has been part of you for quite a while, and has sunk in at least moderately deep.
   /
   Of course, there is the current dilemma: when nazis are around, all that doesn’t work. There is no ideology you can hold that will make the community a place where violence is bad, killing is shocking and awful, and aggression is not the go-to solution for problems. Nazis ideology is built around a core of violence, full stop.
   /
   So! Here is my one piece of advice when straightening this all out in your head: a lot of people have strong mental overlap between aggression, violence and killing. When they stop believing that aggression is wrong, they can stop feeling that killing is wrong.
   /
   But if you want to use any of those as tools, the first thing to do is uncouple them, really make the differences clear to yourself. A line of religious leaders holding hands outside a synagogue, barring entry to the nazis: aggression. Making someone do community service: violence. Becoming a soldier, seeing an enemy uniform and shooting the person in it: killing.
   /
   Because in the end all three of those are tools, tools that are probably very unfamiliar to you (at least in terms of using them). You will need at least aggression to deal with the nazis. They do need to be actively opposed, you are absolutely right.
   /
   So, in summary, try thinking over your new tools to approach the problem. I think (hope) it’ll help you sort out your head, and in doing so give you the tools to help prevent the further rise of the fucking nazis.

2. StevoR says

   August 18, 2017 at 12:57 pm

   I see where you are coming from here. I can relate and understand.

   I’m conflicted about this too. Torn and angry and seriously worried. (Even though, yeah, I’m an Aussie and thus the worlds largest ocean away in distance anyhow.)

   But, I’d just advise caution because anger and hatred even when entirely justified can be incredibly destructive and corrosive and dangerous things.

   Think of them like hydrazine, properly directed, extremely powerful and capable and making rockets fly but also liable to cause huge annihilating explosions and toxic with prolonged exposure.

   Choose wisely never forget to think and be kind please.

3. Nathan says

   August 18, 2017 at 1:32 pm

   @aquietvoice Hello! Welcome! Please feel free to comment more enough! I always welcome new voices. And thank you for your post. It’s food for thought I’ve been turning over in my head since you posted it.

   @StevoR Yes they can, but that’s exactly what Nazis do and are doing now. They are the violent ones; the rest of us are left with little choice but to defend ourselves, our loved ones, our acquaintances, and those victims of these Nazis who are strangers to us but still worth fighting for. That’s where we are now: self-defense or surrender.

4. aquietvoice says

   August 19, 2017 at 10:15 am

   @Nathan I find I have a little more to say, actually. Also, still having trouble putting in line breaks.
   \
   I wanted to talk a little about needing new tools to deal with a problem that is new to you. Much like a craftsman, you’re gonna need a whole set, and to practice with them. But which set? Of course I can’t make any decisions for you, but I did want to lay out the general options / paths. It’s pretty serious stuff (it’s a pretty serious subject), but we do need to talk about violence when we talk about nazis.
   \
   Starting with the violence-using options (soldier, police officer) and moving on toward the non-violent and even non-aggressive options:
   \
   The cold hard truth is that right now you are not competent enough at using or even understanding violence to make it do what you want. I certainly don’t mean that as an insult, but it is true.
   \
   If you want to be able to use violence, there are two options with the power to actually do something effective:
   Domestically, the largest and most common violence-using group is police officers. It may seem odd to suggest to a FtB blogger, but if you were to work as a responsible, effective police officer that gives you a huge number of advantages to keep the hate groups down. Actually arresting them won’t happen often, so you’ll have a far greater contribution by affecting what is normal.
   If de-escalation and talking is normal and racism is not, where will nazism grow? If violence is stopped at every turn, until unpunished violence is genuinely shocking, how can a violent-at-heart ideology take root? Plus, you get to help stop domestic violence. Trade-offs: 1) You have to do what you are told 2) You will be part of a heartbreakingly unfair system at times, no matter how much you fight against it and 3) Sometimes you’ll have to deal with the…. aftermath of the worst things people can do.
   \
   However, if you genuinely think that nazis will rise to power, the only way to physically defend people from that is to be a soldier. People who think that a gun alone will protect anyone from high-level organized violence live in a fantasy world. Trade-off: Being a soldier means being the extension of someone else’s political will, means signing up long term, means very serious responsibilities, means killing who you are told to, means getting shot at. Not an option that many choose, but it is there if you want it.
   When it comes to the most powerful violence that humans can produce, there are soldiers and there are utterly ineffective people. No middle ground, no lone wolves fighting for their own cause. People who tell you otherwise are fucking stupid -- the main practical reason that terrorists target civilians is because soldiers would kill them all instantly.
   \
   Now, for our non-violent options to resist the violent and hateful! They are much nicer, and will mirror the two violent options: The first being direct confrontation, the second being about changing things to that the nazis will not rise.
   \
   Actually, let’s start with an example or two! Probably familiar, but worth revisiting:
   http://www.neatorama.com/2007/09/03/clowns-kicked-kkk-asses/
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZpfxRxhQA8
   http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/neo-nazi-walkathon_us_59952cfbe4b0acc593e51ae5
   \
   Those examples spanned 7 years, by the way (’07 to ’14). Also, the writers really enjoyed their dramatic prose…. anyway.
   The important thing is the organization: In each case there were either two clear viewpoints or two clear groups -- and *every* passerby could instantly be accepted into the one that wasn’t the nazis. That’s one of the reasons it’s so important that they are non-violent -- they need to make a message that is instantly understandable and that everyone can join, without qualification. In the second example, the mayor walked down, put on a clown nose, and hung out with the clowns.
   \
   It may have looked ad hoc, but the messaging was clear and on-point, including professionally printed banners for the nazis-against-nazis walk.
   The other thing is that in each case, the organizers needed help, both before and on the day. Someone had to set up the table of bananas for the nazis, someone had to help make signs and props and get people there, to help make sure the signs were at the right spot for the photos during the march, and so on.
   You know, these organizers probably know a fair bit about the practical side of this stuff…..
   Ok, you can see where this is leading: the third option I’m talking about today is to learn the practical side of action.
   \
   Just like soldiers used controlled violence to achieve political ends, protestors do the same with controlled aggression. Just like soldiers put fire discipline above shooting guns, protestors must do the same with keeping their messaging on-point. Each will agree: it’s the objective that is important, not ‘feeling cool or badass’.
   Becoming a serious protester means devoting yourself to the objective, not the cool feeling of protesting.
   Trade-offs: Against a serious nazi rise you’ll become ineffective, more so than any of the other three options.
   \
   Finally, we have the most invisible people -- I call them standard-bearers. Easy to get started -- just start volunteering to help someone with something. The idea that “For every person the nazis hurt, I’ll help five” is nice…. but not the point.
   The point again is to change what is normal. Again I ask the question -- if talking is normal and racism is not, where will nazism grow? If your job or volunteering takes you out to see a lot of people, every day, and you talk a little to each one, then each one will know that the nazis are not ok, not normal, not welcome.
   If you want to take that path, then here are your tools:
   -- Being someone that people understand *instinctively* is a good person. That means keeping the aggression low -- you’re a community helper and supporter, now.
   -- Being easy to be familiar with.
   -- Being good at showing your feelings to others.
   -- Firm defense, zero offense. You will be told something like “they aren’t that bad” a lot. Shake your head, every time. Refuse to accept it, every time. Never verbally strike back at the person talking to you, if they are listening to you. They are trying to convince themselves, not you, and they need room to move.
   By the power of those combined, people will realize how much other people in their community are being hurt by hate groups -- they can see the hurt from others that has been pushed onto you.
   It’s one of the few things effective at bypassing cognitive dissonance… then suddenly they are awake, alert, and because they are part of the community via you, they have skin in the game.
   \
   Trade-offs: You’d better be good at giving and receiving emotions from people, and also people devalue caring for others as “woman’s work”, leading to worse finances. Fucking bullshit on many levels, but there you go.
   \
   So, you needed new tools to deal with a new threat, and there are some examples to make it easy to think through. Soldier, police office, protestor, standard bearer.
   Each of those has an answer to the question “is it fine for nazis to die?”
   Each of those has an answer to the question “what is ‘whatever is necessary’?”
   Each of those need commitment to work.
   I guess my next question is: To prevent the nazis from gaining control, to prevent other hate groups from gaining control, would you be willing to commit to any of these options some time in the future?
   By the way, there are a couple I left out, like politician. I mostly just wanted to talk about the power of direct confrontation versus the power of social standards, and how different tools were needed for each. 🙂
   Sorry for the long comment! I just wanted to be clear.

5. StevoR says

   August 25, 2017 at 3:41 am

   Possibly interesting article in this context here :

   https://www.facebook.com/notes/steven-barnes/the-wisdom-of-road-house-1989/10154872695363663/

   The Wisdom of “Road House” (1989) by Steven Barnes Friday August 25th 2017

   … (Snip) …Humanity has monsters in its midst, and even within the hearts of the best of us.
   But if we were more monster than human, it would not be safe for children, and our population would have collapsed rather than expanded. We notice the evil more because if one house is burning in a town of thousands, THAT’S where you put your attention. We’re programmed to notice the tiger hiding in the rose bushes. Roses will be there tomorrow, but one tiger can ruin your whole day.
   We’re better than they are, and they know it. We’re winning, despite the stress, and they fear it. They hope we’ll over-react and destroy the very society we treasure. No, we won’t.
   But if they think we are weak, that we will allow them to walk over us…they have no idea how much we love our children, and remember what happens to people who are too addicted to being “nice.” … (snip) ..

   Excerpt best part perhaps but whole article worth reading and contemplating.

   Personal anecdote of tangential relevance here -- my brothers and I used to fight all the time as kids -until we all joined and learnt a martial art. After that we ended up not fighting and becoming a lot closer.