It's shit like this, r/atheism

I know this is just going to dig my hole even deeper, but I’m a blogger, so speaking my mind is what I do.

A couple of months ago I made a passing comment that I don’t like the atheism subreddit that much because it comes off as very sexist. Sexist comments can pop up on reddit as a whole (sometimes heavily upvoted, to my dismay), but sexist comments on r/atheism affect me more. For one, I tend to hold atheists to a higher standard, so it saddens me when they act irrationally about gender.

But two, the comments are personal. Whenever I see that I got an uptick in traffic from reddit, I’m always afraid to go check the link. Because inevitably when someone links to my blog, many of the comments will be disparaging remarks about my gender or looks. Hell, even some of the positive comments are about my gender or looks, which are still annoying – can we please comment about the content, and not my boobs, please?

So I lurk around r/atheism, but I rarely comment and never post my own stuff because I don’t want to deal with the flack. It’s not worth the frustration usually. But today I did submit my post about atheism in high schools, because it’s so important that I wanted to make sure a wide audience saw it. Young people are the future, blah blah.

But it also set up an accidental experiment. What happens when a female submitter links to her own post, and a male submitter links to his post featuring the same story? That happened when JT Eberhard linked to his post on Atheism Resource a couple hours after I linked to mine.

Let’s compare! (at the time of writing this blog)

JT’s Post:

121 upvotes
24 downvotes

1 comment with contact information (by JT) (5.5%)
4 jokes about the content of atheist clubs (22.2%)
5 jokes about high schoolers (27.7%)
8 relevant remarks about high school atheist groups (44.4%)

Jen’s Post:

110 upvotes
44 downvotes

2 comments about the appearance of women/banging them (3.3%)
19 comments basically saying how much I suck (32.2%)
22 comments (a lot of them mine) defending me against said comments (37.2%)
16 relevant remarks about high school atheist groups (27.1%)

So JT gets mostly relative posts or light-hearted humor, while I get disparaging comments and thread derailing thanks to people trying to reply. At least there are people replying (and the bad comments are getting downvoted), but it’s still frustrating. What woman would be encouraged to join this community or share posts when she has to deal with this shit all the time? And it is all the time – if you look at other Blag Hag posts people have submitted, there will always be at least some comments about my boobs, or how I have a deformed chipmunk face (I still don’t quite understand that one).

It gets old, but I don’t have a solution other than escaping to 2Xchromosomes (…which reddit mocks repeatedly). I just want to point out why r/atheism doesn’t make me feel exactly comfortable, instead of people thinking I’m just another “crazy feminist” who’s “hypersensitive” and “making up sexism that isn’t there.” I know the majority of people at r/atheism are fine, but the few rotten fruit are certainly ruining it for some of us.

One woman’s story of leaving religion

A friend of mine emailed me her story about leaving religion, and I thought it was so revealing that I asked if I could share it. With her permission, please check out her story:

Leaving religion was a very hard thing to do and there are still people from my former church who still do not know that I have completely given up God; although since they know my husband is an atheist, I am sure it would not surprise them. I do know they still pray I return.

I grew up Catholic but was really apathetic about it once I got to college. I wasn’t very religious after college; but as soon as I got married and had our first child, I rejoined a church because I “just knew” I had to have our son baptized. We moved a lot when our kids were younger and finding a church home helped fill the void of not having family near. My husband travelled a lot as well and here was a great group of people offering to help out; a welcomed support for a mom of two children, eighteen months apart and in a new town. The MOPS (Mothers of Preschoolers) group in my town became my life line as I met other young moms.

With church comes Bible study and I participated in one called The Excellent Wife. This book reinforces your hypothesis Jen, that as a woman our place is in our homes raising our children, taking care of our families and supporting our husbands and church. I fell into it hook, line and sinker. I was extremely grateful that Phil’s job gave us the freedom to allow me to stay home with our children. (Being a SAHM is something I would do again without any hesitation.) So I thought it best to do as this study taught and live by those guidelines. I did the woman work of the church: Sunday school teacher, vacation bible school leader, etc., and took the advice of this study and let Phil be the head of the household: not shared responsibilities. From the outside looking in I had the best Christian family out there. Inside looking in, not the greatest; that decision put a great deal of unnecessary stress on Phil.

Then three things happened: Phil became a vocal atheist, I am diagnosed with bipolar and Phil and I agreed to do a book swap. Phil left the church and of course this spreads like wild fire. I get pitied wife looks, lots of prayers, etc. Then I am diagnosed with bipolar. This too spreads like hotcakes but now I am told that this is God’s punishment for marrying an atheist. Here I thought God was going to help me through this horrible illness of up and down mood swings. My pastor even said so. An older member of the congregation thought otherwise. To be fair, my inner circle of friends at my church were amazing, understanding and incredibly helpful while I went through those early days of a correct diagnosis and figuring out the best meds to help stabilize me. However, cracks began to form.

The last thing that pushed me out of religion was a book swap. Phil asked me to read one of his books and I gave him one of mine. His choice was Sam Harris’ Letter to a Christian Nation. Another crack.

Through what would seem like a careful orchestration of events by my husband, I finally left religion completely behind. Those events involve TAM, Phil Plait, an LCMS church behaving like a Pentecostal one, and an insensitive pastor during my grandmother’s final days. Leaving God was easy. Leaving the church family, I had come to love, was not. My routine was hijacked, which threatened my stability. I had to go through the death of my grandmother without the comfort of God, and felt as if I had no real sense of purpose for awhile. I still miss a good potluck; Lutheran woman know how to cook (I just pretend the fruited jell-o mold isn’t there).

I have attended many skeptical/atheist events but I am tired of always hearing about god. I would much rather have a glass of wine and hear about your kids, your partner, your school work, your job, than about god. This is what Christians do very well; they have lunch with you before they try to convert you. I attended a leadership workshop on evangelism that pretty much said: have a picnic with someone, make a vested interest in their life before you bring up god. I was never a good evangelist, but I loved the getting to know people part.

I have a feeling that this is a common story for women. Like I said before, religious women often find their only source of power within the religious community. Leaving that can be shattering. Imagine how hard it is for women who don’t have a godless spouse to encourage them. Being aware of the particular difficulties women have in leaving religion is the first step to making atheist communities more welcoming and diverse.

One woman's story of leaving religion

A friend of mine emailed me her story about leaving religion, and I thought it was so revealing that I asked if I could share it. With her permission, please check out her story:

Leaving religion was a very hard thing to do and there are still people from my former church who still do not know that I have completely given up God; although since they know my husband is an atheist, I am sure it would not surprise them. I do know they still pray I return.

I grew up Catholic but was really apathetic about it once I got to college. I wasn’t very religious after college; but as soon as I got married and had our first child, I rejoined a church because I “just knew” I had to have our son baptized. We moved a lot when our kids were younger and finding a church home helped fill the void of not having family near. My husband travelled a lot as well and here was a great group of people offering to help out; a welcomed support for a mom of two children, eighteen months apart and in a new town. The MOPS (Mothers of Preschoolers) group in my town became my life line as I met other young moms.

With church comes Bible study and I participated in one called The Excellent Wife. This book reinforces your hypothesis Jen, that as a woman our place is in our homes raising our children, taking care of our families and supporting our husbands and church. I fell into it hook, line and sinker. I was extremely grateful that Phil’s job gave us the freedom to allow me to stay home with our children. (Being a SAHM is something I would do again without any hesitation.) So I thought it best to do as this study taught and live by those guidelines. I did the woman work of the church: Sunday school teacher, vacation bible school leader, etc., and took the advice of this study and let Phil be the head of the household: not shared responsibilities. From the outside looking in I had the best Christian family out there. Inside looking in, not the greatest; that decision put a great deal of unnecessary stress on Phil.

Then three things happened: Phil became a vocal atheist, I am diagnosed with bipolar and Phil and I agreed to do a book swap. Phil left the church and of course this spreads like wild fire. I get pitied wife looks, lots of prayers, etc. Then I am diagnosed with bipolar. This too spreads like hotcakes but now I am told that this is God’s punishment for marrying an atheist. Here I thought God was going to help me through this horrible illness of up and down mood swings. My pastor even said so. An older member of the congregation thought otherwise. To be fair, my inner circle of friends at my church were amazing, understanding and incredibly helpful while I went through those early days of a correct diagnosis and figuring out the best meds to help stabilize me. However, cracks began to form.

The last thing that pushed me out of religion was a book swap. Phil asked me to read one of his books and I gave him one of mine. His choice was Sam Harris’ Letter to a Christian Nation. Another crack.

Through what would seem like a careful orchestration of events by my husband, I finally left religion completely behind. Those events involve TAM, Phil Plait, an LCMS church behaving like a Pentecostal one, and an insensitive pastor during my grandmother’s final days. Leaving God was easy. Leaving the church family, I had come to love, was not. My routine was hijacked, which threatened my stability. I had to go through the death of my grandmother without the comfort of God, and felt as if I had no real sense of purpose for awhile. I still miss a good potluck; Lutheran woman know how to cook (I just pretend the fruited jell-o mold isn’t there).

I have attended many skeptical/atheist events but I am tired of always hearing about god. I would much rather have a glass of wine and hear about your kids, your partner, your school work, your job, than about god. This is what Christians do very well; they have lunch with you before they try to convert you. I attended a leadership workshop on evangelism that pretty much said: have a picnic with someone, make a vested interest in their life before you bring up god. I was never a good evangelist, but I loved the getting to know people part.

I have a feeling that this is a common story for women. Like I said before, religious women often find their only source of power within the religious community. Leaving that can be shattering. Imagine how hard it is for women who don’t have a godless spouse to encourage them. Being aware of the particular difficulties women have in leaving religion is the first step to making atheist communities more welcoming and diverse.

Why do skepticism and feminism go hand in hand?

Because facts are very useful things to have in your tool belt when arguing your point:

Women do not suffer mental health problems such as depression or post-traumatic stress disorder as a result of having an abortion, researchers reported Wednesday.

The study, published by Danish scientists in the New England Journal of Medicine, adds to a growing body of scientific literature that has failed to find that abortion causes psychological problems, as some abortion opponents have asserted.

Too bad there are too many people who don’t care about science or facts. Oh well, they’re a lost cause anyway.

THIS is how feminists should critique science

By actually investigating the merit of its claims. And we have two wonderful examples of that over at Slate. Amanda Schaffer takes down the evolutionary psychology study that claimed ovulating women become more racist to avoid rape, and Emily Yoffe points out the pitfalls of a study claiming women walk unsexily when ovulating to reduce rape.

Notice how they don’t resort to building up straw-men, using emotional arguments, automatically disregarding something because it doesn’t fit with their ideology, asserting that scientific findings make moral judgments, claiming the whole field of evolutionary biology is bunk, or slinging around nonsensical pejoratives like “Dude Science” or “Bro Scientists.”

Other bloggers, take note at these great examples.

Please. If I hear someone seriously use the phrase “Dude Science” again, I’m going to lose my mind.

Ladies: How difficult was it leaving organized religion?

At my talk for the Seattle Atheists on Saturday (which went fabulously, thanks to those who showed up!), an audience member posed a very interesting question. Why are women more likely to be religious if the vast majority of religions are so sexist? It’s a question that’s been posed before, with some of the less satisfactory answers saying women are simply hard-wired to be superstitious (with no real evidence backs that up). I have my own hypothesis::

When you’re part of a sexist, patriarchal religion, often the only source of power you have is in raising a family or helping with social events (cooking, event planning, making sure the Church pot luck runs smoothly). You aren’t supposed to be the bread winner or waste time on other hobbies when you have children to raise. Because of this, leaving your religion makes you lose the only source of power you ever had. You no longer have the social structure of the church, and often times you are alienated from your family.

I don’t claim to be the first person to come up with this idea, but it’s very important that we talk about this. If this is correct, it illustrates the importance of having friendly godless social networks as safety nets for women leaving their religion. Groups based on debates, speakers, and intellectual sparring are awesome, but sometimes what you really just need is a friend.* And while I personally approve of pub nights, they’re not somewhere a women with children can easily visit.

But I’m basically a life long atheist, so I don’t even have personal experience to back up my claims. So I leave it to my readers:

Ladies, how difficult was it for you to leave organized religion? What helped you come out as an atheist? Or if you haven’t come out, attended meetings, etc, what would encourage you to do so? Do you think this hypothesis is the main reason why so many more women are religious, or is it something else?

*Obviously not saying that women are inherently uninterested in intellectual discourse about atheism. The women who don’t need the comfort of a social group are already leaving religion and participating in atheism – this is a step to get the other women more involved.

22 Old White Men

Oh wait, that’s not the name of this list; it’s actually called The 25 Most Influential Living Atheists. But when you skim through, my title seems a bit more accurate.

The only influential female atheists you could think of were Jennifer Michael Hecht, Barbara Forest, and Susan Blackmore? Really? I mean, they’re excellent, and I’m happy they made the list – but only three women?

It’s especially annoying when about 8 of the men on the list aren’t even known for being outspoken atheist activists – they’re just scientists who’s research may help convince people that the world is a bit more godless, or may take a dig at theism every once in a while. If that’s how you want to define influential, fine. But the list explicitly says that it’s looking for people who “actively encourage others to disbelieve in God.” That ranks them ahead of people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Susan Jacoby, Valerie Tarico, Debbie Goddard, etc…?

Not to mention I haven’t even heard of a couple men on the list. Yep, definitely influential if someone very active in the atheist movement has never heard of you.

And no non-white people? I already mentioned Ali and Goddard, but how do you forget Hemant Mehta? He’s certainly influential.

At least this is on some random website. If this list appeared within the atheist community after all of the discussion we’ve been having over the last couple years, I may just give up hope of people getting it.

How NOT to respond to the gender gap

PZ recently made a post advertising the Southern California Secular Humanist Conference. While the poster was funny, I was a little disappointed in the list of names, and simply commented:

2/15 speakers are women? :|

Do I think that the event coordinators are sexist masterminds, purposefully plotting to exclude anyone with a preponderance of X chromosomes? Of course not. But I do think organizers need to be aware of these gender gaps. Some may be caused by subconscious sexism, but many are caused by a seemingly inescapable cycle:

  • Women aren’t invited to speak at conferences…
  • So no one knows what good women speakers there are…
  • So when people go to plan conferences, all of the good speakers they think of are male.

Etc, etc, etc. One way to escape this cycle is to simply be aware of the problem, and work toward more equal representation. I’m not asking for 50% women exactly, but 13% is bordering on statistically significant from the expected distribution.

It’s a big PR problem, too. You know how people keep asking where the atheist women are, or claim that atheism is a club for Old White Men? It’s because they see events like this.

So how do you NOT respond to my concerns? Like the following commenter. I point them out because this type of thinking is way too common. Let me reply line by line:

Jennifurret, do you think the organizers are being sexist?

Not consciously or malevolently. Though the rest of your comment? That kind of is.

Should they seek out more women to speak?

Uh, yes. Already explained earlier in this post.

Do you have a list of such speakers you could give them?

I know you’re trying to pompously assert that it’s my duty as an Owner of Ladybits to solve this problem, and assuming that I’ve done nothing to help. But actually, yes, I do happen to have a giant list of awesome female atheists that is linked to repeatedly. Event organizers can feel free to consult it!

If you feel there need to be more women at such conferences, then by all means, go to such conferences. Get involved, write articles, get invited. I’d do it except I’m not qualified to be a woman, so you have to.

First of all, even if I was just some random commenter, this is annoying as hell. Obviously there are no qualified women to chose from already, so I should go and do the work to be at the same level as these deserving men. Thankfully this person proves my point (and makes them look like a total jackass) because I’m:

  • Involved. Board member of the Secular Student Alliance, popular atheist blogger, founder and former president of an atheist group.
  • Writing articles. Not just here, not just my popular piece on atheism at Ms. Blog, but actually published in an atheist book.
  • Getting invited. I currently have 7 upcoming speaking events, 4 of which are at conferences. I have a couple more that are potentially being worked out, one of them at a major conference.

This post isn’t to just tell this person to go shove it. It’s to illustrate how ludicrous and common this sort of thinking is. “Obviously women are underrepresented because they deserve it” is not only unhelpful, but an outright lie.

The Most Influential Female Atheist of 2010

It’s that time of year again! Yep, time for arbitrarily quantifiable Top 10 lists. Last year’s poll on influential atheist women was so successful, I felt like it would be a great idea to do one again.

Yes, we all know polls aren’t scientifically meaningful – technically PZ Myers was one of the most influential female atheists of 2009 (should never allow write-ins when Pharyngulites are around). But the way I see it, all the women on this list are winners, and this is just one way to showcase them. Here are the nominees, suggested by my blog readers via twitter and facebook, or added by yours truly:

I know it’s hard to vote when there are so many awesome women on one list, so you can vote for up to three. If you want to vote for someone not on the list, please select “Other” and leave your vote in the comments:

Who was the most influential female atheist of 2010?Market Research

It was hard selecting just 15 nominees – you can see a much longer list of awesome female atheists here.

Some people will probably think a women-only list is just perpetuating sexism, or implying women can’t play with the “big boys” of atheism, so they need their own poll. But really, it’s addressing the problem that so many women are doing fabulous things in the movement, but too few people know about their achievements. This is just one way of highlighting all the awesome work they’ve done in the past year.

*People using Google Reader or other RSS feed aggregators may not be able to see the poll. Please visit the original post to voice your opinion!