In the past while I’ve been off at conferences, I’ve had you ask me various questions for blog filler. I figured this time we’ll do the opposite – I’ll ask you guys questions, and you can feel free to discuss in the comments while I’m away. So, here we go with the first question of the week:
For those of you who are no longer a part of the religion you were raised of, do you still have some religious hang ups that you just can’t shake? Things that make you feel guilty even though you rationally know you shouldn’t?
And for those of you who weren’t raised with religion (like me!), do you have any religious hang ups from being raised in a religious society/having religious friends/etc?
Hmm. I find it harder to get along with conservative christians a lot more than I used to. So I am not really sure if that is a hang up, but I wish I could get to a point where I can get along with them, despite our differences in politics and religion.
Well, besides the fact that I haven’t had the courage to tell my dad that I’ve become an agnostic…As much as I want to not-believe in everything associated with religion, sometimes I can’t help but think of people as “being in Heaven”, especially with a good friend being diagnosed with some pretty bad lung cancer. Sometimes it’s comforting, even though the rational part of me says “you can’t pick and choose, you have to drop it all”.I’d love to say that I’ve completely shed all my religious hang-ups, but not quite yet. I’m getting close, though.
I used to stress about things like shopping on Sunday or having a drink or masturbating, but not so much anymore.
I’ve dropped most of my religious hang ups, but I have one superstition, separate from my religion that I can’t shake even though I want to: I always knock on wood. Whenever I say something about how great something in my life is, I feel an overwhelming need to knock on wood.Also, there are some things I simply won’t say or do. Like the whole “sell your soul to show you really don’t believe in one”. Can’t do it, and I can rationalize that, but it’s really just an old religious hang up. I used to have a terrible fear of the devil.
I can’t stand other people “being religious” around me. I know it sounds weird, and it’s highly inappropriate of me to expect them to obscure their own beliefs when they’re not actively trying to push them on me or anything… but even if mention of god comes up in a conversation, I begin to get very uncomfortable… If I’m able to, I’ll pretend I didn’t notice it, but most of the time, because I’m such an ass that gets hung up on trivial details, I’ll rashly use it as an opportunity to ridicule the other person for believing in a deity, then feel terrible for it the remainder of the day, but won’t admit that I feel terrible for it.
In still think that I’m partially neurotic, because it tends to be very common in Jewish culture.
Having been brought up in a Catholic household (am now an atheist), there’s a lot of residual guilt. It’s just built in. Normally this is easy to rationalize, but it’s like dealing with anxiety (not that I’m normally a deeply anxious person), it’s learned behavior and has become so ingrained that it’s difficult to unlearn. I think Richard Dawkins equated a religious upbringing with child abuse. I wouldn’t go so far as to put that label on it, but it’s something negative that has stayed with me for a long time.
Jen, I’m unfortunately one of those oddballs that thinks that “God created evolution — mostly to cause controversy as part of his ambitious science simulation to auto-assemble a sapience capable of solving the simulation using simple physical rules”. I think that sort of invalidates my comment as I’m in an outgroup given your two categories, but I’ll comment anyway :P I’ve got you in a syndicated feed reader ever since you described “Boob Quake” and find your discourse fascinating. I am greatly encouraged by the sanity and diplomacy of your blog. Anyway, I think that my hangups are more about humans than about God (right, since I’m still theistic). I am unhappy when people commit violence because of their beliefs (any beliefs) — it results in a very visceral feeling of disappointment.
Oddly enough, no. I grew up almost literally without religion — my parents were immigrants from Britain, where most people were and are hardly religious in any meaningful way. Not only did I grow up in a non-religious household, but irreligion wasn’t felt to be anything unusual that needed to be asserted or explained. I never particularly absorbed religious attitudes about anything.My feeling about religion has always been: how dare this completely pointless and irrational phenomenon constantly try to impose its stupid taboos on society, including on me? I don’t think that’s a hang-up. I think that’s a sensible response.
I was raised Catholic and left at around 12. I am, at this point, basically an agnostic/atheist. I had a religious girlfriend at one point so I tend to express gratitude to the universe once in a while. I also express a belief in Cthulu at work, because it’s a cool way to mess with the religious. Cthulu is not being a deity but really a very powerful being so it doesn’t really count as being a theist.
In person, I still frequently (but not always) have some difficulty overcoming that “talking about religion is rude” thing, even in situations where other people bring it up. I tend to only answer direct questions, and then only briefly, and feel like anything I say might hurt their feelings (which I’d rather avoid).It’s kind of annoying, because this has happened to me even in response to a breathtakingly stupid “Man, atheists are just fucking stupid” from a person whose feelings I legitimately did not care about hurting. I just clammed up.
When I was a kid I got in the habit of praying to help me find things I lost. At this point I still get the urge to, though I don’t get the urge to pray at any other time. Kinda strange really…
Children have this wonderful capacity to understand things we can no longer believe, things like Christmas and Santa Claus, Easter and the Bunny. Those are old beliefs, old superstitions, old religious celebrations thrown off as we reach toward adulthood and restricted to the youth by equally supernatural religions.Funny how we accept their beliefs as uninformed and quaint, while many adults still hold on to the remnants of old religions past in their lives and those views are regarded in a similar fashion, but with a little more respect. ‘Knocking on wood’ as Gus Snarp mentioned, ‘salt over the shoulder’, ‘not stepping on cracks’, or a newer one like banging on the TV or even the computer monitor when things go wrong with the program or signal, none of these will actually fix or prevent anything, but they are ingrained into our subconscious nonetheless. And it is interesting how religious converts and practitioners are referred to as ‘children’ as if, as their religions teach, they lack the ability to ever understand fully the forms, the rituals and the beliefs they profess everyday.So I ask, why would anyone want to be treated like a child their entire lives and not be allowed to make their own decisions? Maybe the change that needs to be made is the recognition that we are only really still children if we cease to learn, that the most adult thing we can ever do is educate ourselves continually and never cease to discover something new.
When I’m in a particularly bad situation I still sometimes ask the empty air for help. Less these days, but it still happens. And hell still terrifies me in the middle of the night when I’m alone and feeling down. Other than that I think I’m pretty much hangup-free
Really? The shopping on Sunday stuck with you?? Mormons must be fierce!
Saying “Bless You.” after someone sneezes. It’s more habit than anything else, not actually wanting to bless someone for fear of their snot being possessed.
I was raised a Jehovah’s Witness and left at 21. I’m still dealing with anxiety rooted in being raised to believe Armageddon was going to happen any day. I have a lot of dreams about cataclysms happening in front of me–usually airplane crashes–and I can’t do anything to stop them. I want to help the people involved, but there’s nothing I can do to change the fact that their deaths are imminent.It’s a good thing I have medication and counseling, otherwise I’d be a total basket case.
I was never raised in a religious household, but the best school in our area was Church of England and a few of my friends were Christian so I grew up to accept it. I’ve grown out of that now, but sometimes I still worry about cursing myself with hubris – like, if I think “wow, I’ve been really lucky lately and everything is going well” I’ll start to expect some misfortune to ‘balance it out’. I’m not sure if it’d count as religious or superstitious, but rationally I know it’s stupid!
Considering how rigorously my parents tried to indoctrinate me when I was young, I’m pleasantly surprised that I have as few hang-ups as I do. Most of the major things, like silent prayers and masturbation guilt, left almost immediately. But sometimes I see one of those nice pictures of a handsome, well-groomed, Caucasian Jesus and feel a stab of guilt for abandoning my friend. Or sometimes, I’ll come across a really neat scientific fact and automatically think, “Wow, God is so cool. Look how he made that.”
Yes! I have this same problem. I can’t not say something when someone sneezes so I’ve taken up the habit of saying “Gesundheit” even though I can’t speak another word of German.
I was raised fairly tabula rasa; neither religious nor atheist. I hate being a hypocrite, so I try really hard to not use “god” in expressions, but it is HARD! When I got a hugely important job, I kept wanting to “thank god” even though I know there is nobody there! So I kept thanking myself for all my hard work getting to this point. My step-mother gets all up in arms when I use religious expressions since I don’t believe, including jumping down my throat when I QUOTED somebody who referred to god (“Experience is a brutal teacher but you learn; my God do you learn” ~ C.S. Lewis). Other than that, I have never believed in heaven/hell so I just go on with my day!
My dad has always been a strong Catholic. He used to go to church every sunday. Thankfully, my mom wasn’t very religious…she’s more of what you would call “spiritual”. She decided when I was six and my sis was already 10 that she wanted us to be able to make our own decisions about religion so she quit making me go. I’m so thankful for this. It’s allowed me to lack the shame and guilt that most people still have remnants of from being religious. The only thing I still can’t bring myself to do is to tell my dad. Not because I fear him or think he’ll get angry or disown me. Not because I think he won’t accept me…but because I don’t want to disappoint him.
I grew up in a religious society. I am the only atheist/agnostic I know from our society (I am not saying which except it is somewhere from Africa). My conversion from christianity to atheist/agnostic probably took 15+ years. I went through all phases pretty much in this order: – all the angels we worshipped stopped making sense (there is only one god and jesus is his son)- idea of jesus didn’t make sense either (there is only one god)- but what is god anyway (why does he have to be male)- why is god in human form anyway- there is god and we don’t know his form -big bang, evolution and rest of science make sense but they are probably driven by god…. skip many years …- hey I am bending backwards to accomodate the existense of god .. why should I- idea of god doesn’t make senseNow I am a complete physicalist/materialist/reductionist/atheist with pretty much no hang-ups from my religious upbrining. I am surrounded by religious people all the time, so, yes I do get annoyed very often with other peoples’ beliefs. I am non-confrontational but I fume inside (I know not good for me).The only thing I wonder is just that it is mind boggling how nature operates. I always have this thing in the back of my mind that there is something huge we don’t understand. My hang-up sometimes is believing all these (big bang to present) evolving on its own. But then I say well if there is something else driving nature then that thing has to be even more complex it would require its own driver. So, the only explanation i can think of is complex things have to come from simpler things ..
I was also raised in a Roman Catholic household, which we all know can be the ultimate guilt trip. I’ve been agnostic since early adolescence, but I haven’t told either one of my parents, even though its been over 15 years. I have a feeling my mother, who is Lutheran-Missouri Synod, knows and is okay with it, but my father, the Catholic, would have a total fit. My sister knows and understands, even though she flits between agnosticism and gnosticism. I know this will create problems in the future if I ever get married and have children, since I have no desire to get married in a church by a priest, nor do I want to get my children baptized.My biggest hang-up seems to be admitting my agnosticism in groups where I know there are others who are religious. I’ve stated it in the past when asked, and there are people who instantly confuse agnostic for atheist (not that I have anything against atheists–I simply can’t bring myself to completely dismiss things out of hand, and once DEFINITIVE proof of a god/dess exists or I die, go to the Pearly Gates, I will be more than happy to sing the praises) or come down on me like a ton of King James bibles, berating me for my ‘evil’ ways and attempting to bring me back into the fold and ‘save’ my eternal soul. These reactions have created a bit of a grudge, so nowadays I tend to react rather rudely when people start proselytizing their Christian beliefs.
I can remember being very young and learning about the dinosaurs and realizing dinosaurs weren’t in the bible, but I just kinda blocked the logic and went with what I was told. Then later when we learned about Greek Mythology I remember thinking (at age 9 or 10) how can we make fun of these people and their beliefs and pretend that ours aren’t just as archaic and silly? So I think I’d been battling for a long time.When I was in middle school and early high school I thought something was wrong with me and tried to force myself to go to church/read the Bible. But eventually I accepted that I didn’t believe in religion. I still believed in God but it was more of a God that wasn’t involved. Then I transitioned to agnosticism and like you, I couldn’t call myself an atheist. It has taken a lot of thought and acceptance, but I’m finally admitting to myself that I’m an atheist and I’m okay with it. My sister almost cried when I told her and she basically thinks I’m going to hell. My mom wasn’t surprised, but she thinks I’m just not experienced enough to realize there’s a god…(she basically pulled the “I’ve figured something out that you haven’t yet”) But my mom has always had a problem and borderline hatred and cynicism about Bible Beaters and holy rollers. So she’s not looking down on me, really, she just thinks I’m going through a phase. All my close friends know, but I don’t tell everyone because I’m afraid it will have negative social effects not just in my personal life but ultimately my career.
I didn’t grow up in a seriously religious family, but I was exposed to it. It has colored my mannerisms and way of speech, though I have worked to eliminate them. For instance, I no longer say “bless you” when someone sneezes, but instead keep up the social norm with “gesundheit.” It makes more sense since it is a wish of health for the person sneezing, instead of a desire for divine intervention.I still use “Jesus” as an expression of exasperation or surprise, or “oh my god” at times too, though I am working on eliminating these from my speech as well.
I have a super hang-up about being blessed. My mind just thinks, “How dare you think your God cares if I sneeze?!”
I’ve been left with a slightly superstitious dislike of horoscopes. For some reason, aged about 12, I decided that reading them, or even having them read to me, put me at risk of even instinctively giving them some kind of credence, i.e. putting them before God. For that reason, I actively avoided them (as in deliberately unfocussing my eyes or turning the page if I found them in a magazine), and refusing to tell anyone what my star sign was.Obviously now I’m an atheist, I can see my reaction as slightly screwy, but I’ve never lost a vague uncomfortable feeling around horoscopes, or telling people my star sign.
I was raised as a Catholic – I attended church every week and at one point even got quite into it. One thing I really notice in discussions like these is just how mellow this Catholic upbrining was. The Church is seen as the ultimate moralising, guilt-tripping, mysticism-ridden sack of Pope-droppings, but almost none of the cliches ever applied to my particular church.I even attended a Catholic school, but despite RE being a compulsory subject religion was never really pushed. We studied other world religions, masculinity (all-boys school), mental health, ethics and rational argument and a critical/historiographical analysis of the Bible. It was the last one that made me an agnostic.So really, after that lifelong upbringing as a Catholic, the only hang-up I have is not hating the Catholic Church as much as everyone else seems to. At least, not until I actually learned the “official” Catholic position on most things…
Actually, it’s the theists who shouldn’t say “God” or “Jesus” as an exclamation. It’s against their religion. It’s perfectly OK for us non-theists to use it, since it is in essence mocking their God.I think my remaining hang-up is when “fringe” groups like Mormons or Jehovah’s Witlesses call themselves Christian, and my immediate reaction is “No, you’re not, you heretic.” and then “Why do I even care?”
I do the same thing. Just the other day, I lost my prescription sunglasses and I was like, “Please help me find them!” and finally realized how odd it was that I did that.
You’re not the only one, Rawr. Since I’ve rejected religion and God, the mere mention of God or religion in conversation (especially with family) makes me very uncomfortable. My cousin was joking around about how every generation had a priest in it, and the current one didn’t. He turned to me and said, “Rick! You’re our last hope!” My father, who knows I’m an atheist, scoffed/laughed and said, “Hah, there’s no chance of that happening.” Utterly uncomfortable. I’m the only atheist (as far as I know) in my entire family. Especially since we have priests and reverends in our family.
The main difficulty I’ve found with becoming Atheist is not knowing what to scream during really awesome sex. I mean, you can’t really come out with a hearty OH GOD without giggling a little bit…
The guilt complex in Mormonism is deep and broad. It rivals that of Catholicism.
Seconding the residual guilt. I think I will always be a guilty person. Yay catholicism.
Saying “Jesus christ” as an exclamation or referring to Christmas has about as much relationship to christianity to me as the relationship between “Wednesday” or “Thursday” has with Woden or Thor. I’ll put Christ back in Christmas when you put Thor back in Thursday.
I think I’ve shed most of my hang-ups. I don’t feel any guilt for anything anymore, but I really have to watch myself around my parents and younger siblings, lest I let out a stray “holy fuck” or mention how much I love tequila or how drunk I was at my friend’s birthday party, or what guys I find hot. Being an atheist with extremely strict an orthodox Mormon parents is pretty exhausting.
I used to do the same thing, and I drove myself crazy when I would. Instead, after someone sneezes, say, “Wow, you’re so good looking!” It’s much more interesting, trust me. I still have difficulty with some of the other religiously-oriented exclamations, though. I’m trying to break myself of the habit of saying “Oh my god,” “Thank god,” even “Goddamn.” :) We need better atheist exclamations! Ideas, anyone?
Hmm. I wasn’t raised in a traditional religion, but not atheist either so I have my own hangups. I suppose it was a sort of newagey thing. So I have to get over being told repeatedly as a child that I was put on this earth for a purpose, that I’m special. I’m special to my loved ones and I’d like to achieve some kind of lasting legacy but I’m not special just cos someone says so. Also, because I grew up in Ireland I have a feeling some of that messed up catholic bullshit managed to creep its way through to my psyche. Guilt and superstition. Ugh.
We always prayed to “St. Anthony,” who is apparently the “finder of lost things.” What a lame job… stuck spending eternity helping people locate their car keys.
I relate to a lot of this, but would add, because of my Catholic involvement during youth, I actually KNOW a lot of the official catholic position on lots of stuff. I paid attention to what was being said, and having served a lot of mass, I knew a lot about what was going on with the priest and what he was doing. As such, I am able to address catholic issues with a lot better understanding of the church’s position. I don’t agree with much of it, but at least I know why they are saying what they say. For example, the restriction against married priests doesn’t strike me as near as silly as it does to a lot of people (although the woman priest thing is certainly indefensible sexism)
This is so me. One woman once said to me “Anyone who doesn’t believe in God needs their head examined”. Did I defend my beliefs? No! I felt like such a coward afterwards. Why should I care whether I insult her beliefs after what she said about mine? I should at least have said something to educate her. My hang-up is definitely treating religion as something sacred, not to be criticized, even though I don’t believe that things should be that way at all.
I’ve been left with a strong dislike for the Catholic church and an extreme emotional reaction to the topic of abortion. I am pro-choice these days, but it took a lot to get there and be comfortable with it, so I get rather unreasonably angry when EITHER side of the argument makes claims about how “obvious” or “self-evident” or what-have-you their position is.I also was absolutely bombarded with pictures of aborted infants, which still make me physically ill when I see or think about them. Because of this, I don’t know if personally I could ever abort a child, knowing the nightmares that would ensue.
I’ve spent a lot of time processing and reprocessing my attitudes of universalism since leaving theism. I don’t have a problem justifying it, but I have a problem enforcing it. Laws and whys are one thing, but the ought is another. Why we generally try not to suck is pretty obvious, altruistic behaviors have a long evolutionary history and it’s good for the species. But because we developed that way isn’t a good reason to do anything, since plenty of negative behaviors developed as well. Because it’s good for everyone is a good reason to follow current laws, but I don’t find it convincing for the visceral feeling I have toward a universal (albeit invented) truth of human rights. In a purposeless, emotionless universe, there’s plenty of reason for me to be nice, but not much reason for me to force someone else to be nice. I’ve been reading some on nontheistic Friends, but I think it would just further complicate the issue (and it may already be confusing me) to try to include too many people in my ruminations, especially since I’m not likely to find many of that stripe in the Bible Belt. I’m certainly still very interested in religious studies, as I find the impact of religions undeniable regardless of the veracity of their many claims and I believe we should meet people where they are instead of attempting to drag them to our playing field when discussing issues. Some already have mentioned this as their hangup, but I think it’s our greatest tool.But, really, my biggest problem is that I have very little desire to build relationships with other atheists based solely on their atheism. I’d rather have a friend that’s the wooiest of woo that I otherwise agree with on multiple issues than risk dealing with an atheist I disagree with. While all people are ridiculously arrogant, few are so likely to call someone who disagrees with them insane. The lack of any gods is not sufficient to build a relationship on.
Me? I still have a thing for the strange hats.http://laughinginpurgatory.blo…
I’m in the “raised religious & rejected it” category. I don’t exactly think of it as a hangup, but I still feel very nostalgic and sometimes tear up a little when I hear some of the old songs that I heard in church as a child. Do you know the Edwin Hawkins Singers’ recording of “Oh Happy Day”? (circa 1970)? That one gets to me every time.
Yep. “Gesundheit” is also my replacement. Just gotta remember to use it! I DO feel ridiculous though, since I can’t speak German either.
Yeah, I got in trouble at my place of work because I have a habit of saying “jesus christ!” when I get upset (I work in a very high-stress environment) and have been called out on a couple occasions for it. My favorite response directed at me was “Now LeAnne, jesus isn’t going to help you with this. Calm down.”
I am still vegetarian because I was brought up so for religious purposes. I find it really annoying that I still amn’t really comfortable eating meat (partly because I think it tastes funny and haven’t gotten used to it). Oh well — at least my grocery bill is smaller.
Although it’s origin is religious, saying “Bless You” doesn’t really count as a religious hangup unless you still genuinely mean to bless someone, no more than cursing using Jesus/God etc.As an atheist raised in a catholic family I still do both without a hint of guilt – because to me, especially the way I use them, they stopped having any religious meaning.
No. Catholics have it easy. Do anything you want all week, tell the priest about it in the confessional on Sunday….you’re forgiven and you start the process over the next week.
I dont know if its a “hang up” per se, but when someone dies I have a hard time realizing there is no “I’ll see you again moment” after believing that there was an afterlife for 21 years. On a related note, the heaven discussion in the “Invention of Lying” was my favorite part.
when people tell me that, i explain that i’m so mean that no demons would WANT to get into my mouth when i sneeze. always good to confront em with the roots of their idiocies
I feel guilty about assertiveness (I always feel rude!) or even feeling angry about the way I was raised. Every time I write something about it, I feel guilty. And, kind of embarrassing but honest: sometimes I still have a hard time letting things roll off my back instead of “searching my heart” to see if it’s true (it used to be so I could ask God for forgiveness), and I have a hard time getting out of the victim mentality because now I don’t have to be. As a fundamentalist woman, though, martyring yourself for Jesus is the only recourse you have when people take advantage of you or abuse you. It’s hard to learn to stand up for yourself after that. For me, anyways.
I was raised Catholic (lost my religion just a few years ago, around high school graduation) and I still have some serious hang-ups about sex. Not so much masturbation; I was able to rationalize that even before leaving the religion, since there’s nothing in the Bible that says it’s wrong.But I still feel compelled to not have sex before marriage and all that, even though I don’t really agree with it anymore. It’s bad enough that I ruined a relationship with my first boyfriend because I thought he was “going too fast.”I also have a strange and unnatural affinity for liberal christian churches, despite knowing that they’re seriously cherry-picking. I think it has to do with the fact that most of them have the same views towards sex as I do (cautious approval).There’s also the wanting to be accepted by the church which is still held-over from my last days of religiosity.
I’ve passed through various religious views – currently believing there may be some form of theistic universal truth, with many different religions all seeing the same thing from a different angle… except New Age/wicca/paganism/etc. After hanging out with a lot of Evangelicals, itwas drummed into me that this was EVIL & WRONG, and however much I try to see it as as valid a spiritual belief as any other, I can’t shake that feeling.
I was raised Catholic, and even though my parents were liberal enough Catholics not to instill any terrible guilt complex in me (that I know of), there are still certain things I can’t shake. For example, even now that I’ve been atheist for about 7 or 8 years, when there is something I am really wishing for, I often find myself thinking “please, please, please” as if I am praying to some sort of deity for whatever it is I really want. Logically I don’t believe there is anyone out there listening to my wishes, and I even consciously know that I am not directing my “pleases” to anyone, but I still do it involuntarily. Also, half of my extended family is extremely Catholic, and I’m still ashamed to ‘come out’ as an atheist to them. I even avoid friending many of the most religious of my family members on facebook for fear that they might see the many pro-science/anti-religion articles and comments I post there. Then again, I did friend some of my younger Catholic cousins, and I get a secret bit of joy from the thought that I might be exposing them to anti-religion info on occasion… =)
Me too! I’m like, uh, thanks, but there was really no point in saying that.
Personally, I like to insert Flying Spaghetti Monster instead of god. Like, TFSMIF!
I wonder if “Oh God Yes” is an appropriate answer here. I’m Atheist, but not in the “Lacking all spirituality” sense. I have strange but oddly logical spiritual beliefs that I won’t get into here.But I was raised Roman Catholic and went to a Catholic School for about 3 years in jr/sr high. We were a Church every Sunday kind of family and Bible Camp every summer. (Not all as bad as you think) Because of this I have rather extensive knowledge of the Bible (To the point that I can quote large sections of it from memory)My religious hangups come in the manner of “Odd Knowledge” (You think the religious trying to remove evolution is bad? Listen to this shit.)Until I was about 18 years old, I thought men had one less rib then women. I knew this with absolute conviction because it was something that was taught to me in Sunday School and never corrected until I was having a conversation with an older friend who was getting a biology major. She had to show me photos of male and female skeletons to get me to realize that my religious based scientific “facts” were out and out lies. I was already well onto the road of dismissing my religion at that point but that rather clinched it for me. As well until I was 24 years old I was under the impression birds did not have sex. That they were like fish and the boy birds would just sit on the eggs and they’d become fertilized. Granted, that might have just been a “city kid” thing.Even today I have issues dealing with sex and sexuality as well as the concept of the divine and its place in the world. My Mother still pressure me to become baptized and while part of me is almost willing to do it just to get her off my back (or to get myself kicked out of baptismal classes for either correcting the teacher or questioning) a part of me fears it because it is a spiritual contract. (Well that and I’m just a creature of my word. So once I promise something it is upon my honor to follow through with it. So I’d never make a promise to follow Roman Catholicism without then having to follow through) However my Mother knows that I’m not religious. She worries and mourns for it but she also knows that I’ve read the Bible clean through in 3 different languages (English, Hebrew and Koenic Greek, the last two being the original languages it was written in) so she also does not try to convince me (other then motherly guilt) or get into religious debates because she knows that I’ll win (and not even using logic, but the Bible itself. Really it’s not such a bad book once you read it in the original language with a knowledge of the history at the time and who’s writing that part)The amount of hang-ups I have from Christianity however are about equivocal to the amount of hangups I have from watching Disney movies and Horror Movies when I was young. (Still waiting for True Love, My Dreams to Come True Via Wishing on a Star, and a chilling belief that babies come ripping out of your chest and screaming up the wall a’la “Aliens”)
I was raised catholic and there are two things still stuck with me from that. 1) I don’t swear [out loud] for the most part. 2) I still have difficulty talking or thinking about sex without getting embarrassed. It’s getting better, but it’s still quite annoying.
Well and even without religiosity attached to it environmentally and economically speaking it’s better to be vegetarian anyway. Wish I could do it, but I love bacon just way too much.
I was raised in a religiously ambivalent household (parents are Baptist and Lutheran and disagreed about which church we should attend, so lucky for me they decided not to go to church at all…yet they still guilt trip their children for not believing). I don’t know if I have many hang-ups directly tied to religion. I have some regarding “fate” and “destiny”. I think this might have arisen from the many times I was told as a child that god has a plan for me, or my parents trying to justify horrible things that happen to people with the “everything happens for a reason” crap. So it is hard to think about things without invoking that language. I’m about to be engaged, and I catch myself doing that a lot in reference to my relationship. I catch myself thinking that fate brought us together or that we were meant to be together, or we are “soulmates”. I realize it is complete BS but I still do it. I also do it in negative situations, which is more harmful because it gives me a reason to sit back and do nothing to change things, if I don’t stop myself. I’m better at challenging those thinking patterns than I used to be.
Alhough I was only a christian for the first 13 years of my life, 4 years later and I still cant help “taking the lords name in vain” my most common expression of frustration is either “jesus christ”, “for gods sake”.
I really loved how my ex-boss, who used to be a Youth Pastor, would talk for hours about religion, and pull others into the discussion. But God forbid we should discuss anything else–then it was “Back to work!”
We Germans totally like it when you guys do that, even if you don’t understand our language.
Chalk another one up for remnants of Catholic Guilt. Luckily though, I was rationalizing my “sins” before I even stopped believing. Why the hell would it be wrong to masturbate? It’s my body. I’d say my only hang ups are on openly discussing my beliefs with people. I’ve told my immediate family, and most of my friends. But I’m hesitant to “come out” to the rest of my family or friends who aren’t particularly close. I also have some residual guilt about purchasing condoms or other sex related paraphernalia. I believe this is more of a societal thing than a religious thing. Add to that the fact that I’m in the military, and they have a “Kick you out because we don’t like your morals” clause in the UCMJ. (Article 133 “Conduct Unbecoming of an Officer and a Gentleman”).
After reading through the comments I realized that my situation is more the rule than the exception. I was raised Lutheran and although I’ve been god-free for about 3 years now I can’t even come out to my friends from high school about my atheism. Luckily for me no-one from my high school is going to the same college as me so I don’t have to keep up the act.I still use ‘god’ and ‘jesus h christ’ in my angry outbursts from time to time, but I’ve rationalized that by realizing that those words are mere gibberish words and can be used like any other expletive. When I “lost god” I kind of turned into Jekyll/Hyde. Being forced to play nice towards my family made my atheist side much more severe. Because of that, I think, I’ve lost most of my religious hangups, or at least I ignore them. The biggest and worst hangup I still have is the “turn the other cheek” mentality. I’m nowhere near as assertive as I need to be.It’s almost funny in a non-funny way, christians are supposed to be special and important but being raised in a christian household robbed me of any self-respect and self-confidence I might have had.
So true.
FYI: “turn the other cheek” was not meant to be an act of passivity, it was an act of defiance. In the culture of the Roman Empire, hitting a person once was a way of demeaning, controlling, and oppressing that person. But for you to stand up and look the hitter in the eye was an invitation to the hitter to treat you as an equal. Hitting twice was an act of battle fought between warriors – and warriors only battled other warriors, only equals battled. If you got hit the second time because of your invitation, you were now on equal footing with the hitter. This is just one of the reasons that the early Christian church was such a pain-in-the-ass for the Roman Empire. It was not that the Church defeated the Roman Empire, the Roman Empire co-opted the church.
Deify your sex partner. “Oh God(dess)!” S/he’ll take it as compliment, I assure you. Of course, nobody minds a self-explanatory “Oh fuck!” as well.
The best cure for being embarrassed about thinking about sex is to spend A LOT of time thinking about sex. It’s good therapy, I assure you.
I reflexively bow my head if I’m not paying attention when someone starts to pray. Very confusing for everyone involved because everyone I associate with knows I don’t pray. That’s when I try to play it off like I did it out of respect for them or something.
Having just finished a 3-year term as an Elder in a Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) congregation; based on many of the comments in this group of posts, I am as much of an “atheist” as most of the people here.If you are up to it, I am cordially inviting you to read 1 or 2 articles – especially if your church experience has been painfull or unfullfilling.I am not interested in trying to change anyone’s mind. I am interested in conversation and hearing your stories – only as much as you feel comfortable in sharing.Thanks and Peace,Doug SloanGOD IS…http://dmergent.org/2010/07/02…RECLAIMING CHURCHhttp://dmergent.org/2010/06/03…
My parents worked full time and thought it better to have family time on Sunday mornings. The extent of my religious education was learning a few Psalms in Spanish and saying grace a couple of times a week. My parents never made me go to church, but they still expected that I should have turned out Christian. Once a year at Christmastime they must remind me of the “Historical merits of the bible” and the great “code of morals within it’s pages” or some crap like that…It somehow makes me feel inferior, because these are my elders and they’re supposed to be wiser than I. They seem to think my atheism is a passing trend, but It’s been 6+ years since I came out. Believing and practicing love and kindness is not good enough for some people.I hate confrontation, so my atheism is mostly revealed when I’m emotional, drunk, or trying to meet guys. I once had a really sweet Christian counseler for my depression in high school, but I could only ever tell her half of the truth for fear of offending her. I lost a boy a really loved when he started practicing Buddhism to ease his depression and I was apathetic (no…squirmy and Eye-rolly) to what he was so passionate about. I couldn’t tell him that I thought it was garbage.I had a Mormon cousin who converted to Judaism after losing his faith in Iraq. The post trauma drove him mad, and at his funeral, seated behind me was a heckling Jew from his Rabbi’s crew. I REALLY should have given him a piece of my mind. Though this was more about family and honor, I still can’t fathom how people claim to be brothers under God. He felt so betrayed by his Rabbi for caring about a Christian family. And yet, I still felt awkward…and somehow guilty about being an atheist at a funeral. I turned the other goddamned cheek like a coward.Like a lot of the other posters, I feel inhibited by the notion that it’s inappropriate to talk about religion. EVER.But I proudly curse and have pre-marital sex all the time! What’s wrong with me?
I didn’t know that! Just another thing christianity twisted for their own purposes. Even if the man known as Jesus originally meant “defy the Roman Empire” it has been turned into “let everyone walk all over you.”That was one of the biggest reasons I left religion, everyone translated/interpreted the bible differently, and the chance of a typo being made then passed down as truth for all time was too great for one tiny part of one religion to say they had the definitive 100% true interpretation.I also hated being called a sheep. Even though they meant it in a positive way, as a person of intelligence being compared to one of the dumbest animals on the planet was insulting.
I was raised in a secular house. My parents were Christian but not practicing and didn’t believe in any organized practice of religion. I’m an atheist, and it drives me crazy that I say “Bless you” to people that sneeze. Isn’t there something else I could say?
maybe you do have a soul. you can have a soul and not believe in a religion or in a god.
I never say ‘Jeez’. I’m an atheist raised by Catholics. My parents never cared if I used words like ‘darn’ or ‘Jeez’. I never even knew the latter referred to Jesus. One day I said ‘Jeez’ at a friend’s house and was informed that their family ‘didn’t take the name of the Lord in vain.’After that I began to intentionally self-censor (so as not to offend). I may swear like a sailor when annoyed (‘Jesus Titty-f*cking polygamous Christ of Latter-day Saints!’ ), but it still feels weird/uncomfortable to say ‘Oh, Jeez.’
i was raised with the feeling that this was somehow the “polite” thing to do, in fact, i never really associated anything religious with it. however, this has also led to me feeling awkward when someone coughs, because i feel like i should say something, but “bless you” doesn’t fit there :/
I haven’t been Christian for almost a decade, but I still occasionally get the unshakable feeling that there’s somebody in the sky watching me. That happens less and less now though, I’m pleased to note. I also occasionally feel irrationally anxious about masturbating, partly because of the aforementioned voyeuristic skydaddy thing and partly because of being indoctrinated by Catholic school. It’s really annoying.I say things like ‘jesus’ and ‘oh my god’ and ‘bless you’, but I don’t angst about it too much. I figure it’s kind of on par with celebrating Christmas – it’s cultural, and I just don’t think it matters enough to change my vocabulary or stop giving people presents in December, y’know?Also, I’ve been lurking for a while but this is my first post here, so hi everybody!
I don’t really see a meaningful association between phrases like “oh my god” and the Christianity from whence they came. The only people who would ascribe any meaning whatsoever to it are the same people who wouldn’t want to say it in the first place for fear of breaking a commandment. Personally, as both an atheist and someone with a penchant for all things crude, I enjoy blaspheming and like to do so in as filthy and creative a manner as possible.
For real. Every time I go sleeveless I have a minor panic attack. No joke.
“I am as much of an “atheist” as most of the people here.”An athiest is someone who does not believe there are any gods. That is the only criteria. Since it’s fairly evident from your comment and links that you do believe in God (please correct me if I’m wrong about that), I can only conclude that your statement is meant to imply that we also believe in god. Has anyone ever confidently told you that you believe something you don’t believe? It’s pretty annoying, and it happens to atheists all the time.I don’t believe there’s a god. Most of the people who’ve commented here don’t. So why did you link to an excercise that explicitly requires the assumption that God exists? I’m trying to get rid of my hangups, not reinforce them. I’ve been trying for years, and it’s a difficult and sometimes painful process. I find it pretty disrespectful that you’ve come to a thread specifically set aside for people like me to commiserate about how religion makes you crazy, and asked me to put myself back in that theistic headspace.
I did. For a while anyway. Then I hit a point where I lost myself, and it felt like I was drowning under ice. Fighting for air, freezing to my core…unable to find my way out. Very hard on me. It felt like that for years. I pondered what good my religion had done me…trusting in God, trusting in the bible…it did nothing to help. I was empty. A husk.It was after that, that I came to realize…if there was a God…he didn’t care. He didn’t “love” me, or my devotion to him would not have been rewarded with suffering. It was like being in an abusive relationship. You give, and give, and give, and all he does is make you suffer. The final straw was a betrayal that occurred….suddenly my life made sense.I let go of the ridiculous “God” thing, and took up my own little belief system that works just perfect for me. No wondering if I’m going to “hell”…no worry about the “afterlife”. No wasted time thinking on what my “sins” are.My beliefs? Everyone just goes back to a universal whole…shares their knowledge, and then, after a break, they return to life…somewhere. As this is a very simplistic belief system, there’s nothing to worship, no big fat book to read to fill your head with lies and BS…so I worship cocktail wieners. Face it, life would not be life without those little cocktail wieners. They are awesome. And you don’t have to “pray” to cocktail wieners. No asking their forgiveness for eating them. They are there to serve. Literally and figuratively.So, no. No religious hang-ups. No guilt. Nothing holding me back from having all the fun I can before I buy the farm. And if there IS nothing…I won’t be terribly disappointed. I am prepared for anything. And, if by some miracle, the religious whack jobs have been right all along…I’ve already signed a contract with the Bringer of Light, which ensures I get a nice little summer home on the shores of hell. I hear Ozzy Osbourne and Alice Cooper will be my neighbors.Life is too short to live with regrets anyway.
Yes! I’m guilty of this too! I try to remember to say “gesundheit”, but I always forget.
I just say “damn demon infestation” instead.
I do feel a little “dirty” or sinful after masturbating
I don’t think there’s an alternative to ‘bless you’ in the UK. Gesundheit is viewed as a German/American thing. So I really don’t know what else to say! Gesundheit makes far more sense than ‘bless you’ anyway.
We have a joke around our way. So a Belfast mob stop a motorist at a road block and drag him out of his car.’What are you’ they shout. ‘Are you a Protestant or a Catholic’.’Neither’ he says. ‘I’m an atheist’.’Right’ they say ‘but are you are Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist’.Hmmmm. There’s a lot of truth in that. So I’m a Catholic atheist.
Whoops didn’t mean to like, I meant I can relate. My Catholic also did anti-abortion presentations, complete with photos of sucked out, hacked up, burnt fetuses. We were 14 and no other view point was given. Most of it was out of context or scientifically inaccurate. My ‘knowledge’ on abortion was mostly wrong. Even though I’ve attempted to educate myself on the issue and practice, I still am very anti-abortion. That said, I am pro-choice. Most people cannot understand how it is possible to be anti-abortion and pro-choice simultaneously, but it is. I think a woman should have the right to an abortion under certain circumstances, it’s just not something I would ever do. Thankfully I am manically mindful of birth control, so it has never been an issue. Luckily my Catholic school did not skew my view of that too!
Doug – your post seems pretty dishonest (we expect that from evangelists). This is a thread for atheists and agnostics to discuss why we rejected your feeble myths (and others) – and you post christian evangelism?It’s not welcome because it’s dull, boring and patronising – particularly here. Do you think the folks posting here haven’t thought through (very completely) your particular set of garbage? W e have and we have rejected it.When you too reject it, perhaps you will understand the frustration we have with people like you trolling our discussions. Now – here’s a link for you:http://www.rechelleunplugged.c…Great women, Jen and Rechelle. Honesty. Integrity. Sense of humour. Just the job.
I think a disbelieving look of astonishment is all the response that woman deserved.
Danke. Sie sind ausgezeichnet!An American woman in her forties was visiting Germany for the first time. After spending a couple of days in Berlin, she got separated from her tour group. She tried asking people for directions, but with her poor luck, she was unable to find anyone who could understand her. Suddenly, she sneezed.A man near her said, “Ah! Gesundheit!”She replied, “Finally! Someone who speaks English!”
Why not? It’s just as appropriate. Of course, I mostly do it for humor’s sake.
“My religion teaches that only priests have the right to bless me, so your statement offends me.” (giggle)
I think that’s the most reasonable reaction to abortion. I know this pro-choice lady who oopsed twice, and both times had the kid. You’ve just taken the very rational point of view that you cannot impose your view on others.
But I don’t believe in a soul, either. Anyway, my rationalization goes like this: I’m an inherently honest person, I have trouble lying, which is why I can’t mumble along in church when I have to go to a funeral mass, similarly, I can’t say I am selling my soul because it’s a lie, I don’t believe I have anything to sell.Also, I have no trouble saying flatly that I do not believe in a god or devil, but I make a sort of Pascal’s wager. Not living as if God is real when I’m pretty sure he’s not, but not offering anything up to a devil I don’t believe in, because I gain nothing from it, but on the off chance he were real would lose a lot. Really it’s a more sensible wager than Pascal’s.
This is called bearing false witness.Your links led not to a discussion group, but to a lecture hall.You are in danger of the fires of Hell.
See how they respond to “genuine” non-religious profanity, and inform them that there’s nothing in the bible against it.
It’s not God, it’s just the spy satellites. Remember to wave “Hi!”Oh! And welcome!
Yes, I find I have the same problem. I was raised a Christian, baptised, christened, even confirmed… I went through a long phase of feeling guilty for not being able to believe…Finally, now that I’ve come to terms with my own agnostic state, I still find it extremely difficult to get along with any kind of religious/ conservative person, especially Christians.Hopefully I’ll overcome that bias some day :)
There’s only one thing that after thirty years of atheism still has me shivering in my boots. That thing is HELL. The word still appears to me in capital letters, usually with flames crackling around it. Although the intellectual part of me knows that hell doesn’t exist, some deeper part of me is certain it does. It’s a fear that’s difficult, perhaps impossible, to extinguish.
Oh I wish I could stop!! It’s so ingrained in me that it pops out of my mouth before i can think! Maybe Gesundheit is the way to go. Will try that now ;D
Rechelle’s post is phenomenal. My only disagreement was her posting it as a personal apology – even when meant satirically – the point being that the churches she attended owe her an apology.For the record, there are those of us who do not accept it as Christianity. What Rechelle experienced is a perpetuation of the culture and pagan religion of the Roman Empire with a heavy dose of Fundamentalist absolutism and anti-intellectualism.In these comments, when there are descriptions of the God and Church that has been rejected, there are many others like myself that have also rejected those same descriptions and experiences while not rejecting the concept of something “more” that is good, loving, beautiful, and completely inclusive.Respectful, intelligent conversation among diverse people (even disagreeing people) is a good thing – right?
Well, missing ribs aside, you’ve definitely suggested one possible silver lining to the religious upbringing cloud: I wish I could read the Bible (among other things) in the Original Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek.
how about “there-is-no-god-bless-you”?
When I took Spanish in high school, I was taught that saying “Salud!” was a common response to someone sneezing. Like “gesundheit,” it means “to your health,” but I find it’s nice to change things up a bit from time-to-time. Apparently such secular responses are the norm outside of English-speaking countries.
I was never raised in a religious home, but I did grow up around hippies and the like, so my hangups are more woo-ish than based on religion. I still catch myself falling for the ol’ appeal to nature from time to time.
Interesting responses. Despite being a Catholic from the ages of 9 to 23, I really don’t have a problem with the whole guilt thing. Quite the opposite. I feel liberated! Happier than I’ve ever been! The world seems so much more beautiful to me now. My journey towards atheism was unintentional, and since I was looking for the truth and cannot stomach living a lie.There is nothing appealing about religion. The loss of it from my life was like the pain of the world being lifted off my shoulders–who would miss the nonsensical rules and restrictions, the absurd stories of child-virgins being impregnated by God, or the *very* convenient lie that the pope (however evil and heinous he may be in everyday life) was magically infallible in matters of church doctrine when he speaks “ex cathedra”? Because somehow God bestows perfection on him temporarily when he makes doctrine announcements. Riiiiight.It is the best thing that has happened to me. Make no mistake, it has not been easy. God was my constant companion, someone who was always there and always loved and understood me no matter how crappy my life was. That being said, being in control of my own destiny is much better. Realizing that I can still be a kind and good and compassionate person, and that I have the power to take matters into my own hands, fix my own mistakes, and be responsible for all my actions free from ridiculous man-made rules has been worth it all.Heaven IS on earth! Like Jen says… where do you go when you die? Well, in the ground. I’m ok with that. I just know now that I have not a second to lose in living my life to the fullest. What a grand adventure!!
I still feel guilty about not taking the sacrament when I get guilt tripped into going to church for some reason (my brother are musicians, so sometimes there’s a performance or whatever).
I totally and completely agree.
Isn’t it strange how we can be taught that our silly stories are the only true ones but there are a ton of other ones out there that are just silly superstitions? My family is very into education, and there was never any question about learning Greek/Roman/Egyptian mythology and religious beliefs. But they were presented as stories and deities that only uneducated, ancient people would believe in. A sun god? Silly! An omniscient, omnipresent god? Well duh, of course HE exists… I still to this day don’t know how they can take that attitude with all the other religions, whether ancient or “modern.”
“I’ll put Christ back in Christmas when you put Thor back in Thursday.”LOVE IT!
I KNOW my boyfriend thinks my pet name for him is “God,” for just that reason…
My little brothers are still deeply entrenched – one is on a mission in Guatemala right now – and the one thing that’s hard is not being myself around them. My parents I worry about less and less (although my dad is on the stake high council or something), but it sucks to not know how to deal with the younger sibs. I don’t think they would not like me anymore if they knew the extent of my disbelief, but I struggle because I for some reason respect their beliefs and don’t want to shatter their image of me, maybe. I hate that.
Haha, yeah, it’s Google Earth, memorializing all our sins so others can look them up and zoom in! :)
yeah, it’s a really shitty situation to be in. They know I don’t believe in Mormonism, but I don’t think they realise how strongly I disbelieve. The youngest are still at home with my parents, and it pains me to see how thoroughly they’re being brainwashed to ignore reality. The other day they were talking about how other religions are “silly” for beliving that angels have wings. I wanted to yell, “There’s no such fucking thing as angels! Also, your religion is far sillier than the one you’re criticising.” *sigh*
I grew up in the Unification Church, which forbid dating and falling in love in favor of arranged marriages, and what basically equated to a caste system. So, I have a huuuge inferiority complex and have guilt trips when I talk to women still. Another weird hangup is that whenever I sit down to have a proper meal with people, I have the urge to pray over my meal, even though I don’t pray anymore. Occasionally, if other people are praying, I’ll actually start praying too and then catch myself, giving “god” the humorous message of “Heavenly Father, thank you for thi-Oh, fuck you.”
I was raised in a Methodist family in the Southeast. My parents are extremely liberal by Christian standards, though, so I don’t have any real guilt issues with my normal activities. I do catch myself saying “oh my god,” which annoys me, and I occasionally change that to “oh your god!” – a gem I picked up from an atheist friend in another online community. Also, while I didn’t grow up with woo, in the early stages of rejecting Christianity, I headed in that direction for a bit as a more palatable spiritual alternative to the hypocrisy and hate ingrained in most major Western religions. So I still occasionally find myself anthropomorphizing trees and whatnot in my head. The biggest (and only major, really) hangup I still have is thinking in terms of at least the mind continuing in a recognizable form after death. It’s less about loved ones, and more about me being soundly irked at the knowledge that I don’t get to see what happens after I die. We’re programmed to seek immortality by reproducing and thereby spreading our genes, but that’s not enough with me. I want to see what my kids, and my grandkids, and their kids and so on DO with their lives. I want to see what kind of achievements and discoveries humanity makes. I want to still be able to come back and participate in them when something interesting’s going on! So the life-after-death thing is pretty hard to shake, though I’ve mostly dealt with it at this point. (And I have incentive to figure out how to map my mind onto a computer, Accelerando/Otherland-style! *mad scientist cackle*)
Yeaaaaah, same problem >.> “oh fuck yes” is my preferred alternative.
I am either a christian or an agnostic, depending on what is meant be ‘christian’. Christianity is not a single monolithic belief system. There is a wide variety of dogma & philosophies, and a lot of the vitriol here is (often deservedly) directed at the extreme view practiced by a fringe who make easy targets. You can agree or disagree with the existance of any sort of higher power, but when you criticise specific points of doctrine, please remember there are probably whole churches who agree with you.
Is it absolutely terrible to have read that and thought “I wonder how often he gets prayed to about finding that lost virginity?”
I was raised Catholic, but not staunchly. I’m very comfortable in my atheism, but the one thing I can’t seem to kick is saying things like “god damn it” or “thank god” or “bless you” when people sneeze. I’m sure the people that hear me say it don’t think twice, but I always feel a little silly, and have to rationalize it as mockery, rather than habit.
This is probably my religious hang-up. Although I do it all the time, I feel guilty when I say things like “oh my god” or “Jesus Christ.” I’ve spent most of my life in a small Midwest town where 99% of the population attended church every Sunday. I now assume everyone I meet is religious and I’m always super careful to try not to offend anyone.
When I was a kid, the part of Sunday school that stuck with me more than any other was the idea that God was listening to every thought in my head… sometimes just listening to my internal monologue, but mostly judging me. As a preteen I got quite paranoid about it, especially around churches.I’m over it today, but it took conscious effort to deprogram because it’d become ingrained as a habit — I didn’t manage to dislodge it until quite late into my conversion through deism and agnosticism into atheism.
I was just talking about this with my SO the other night- it took me SO LONG after I had left Christianity, straight through my dabbling in various other religions up to agnostic and finally atheist, before I could shake the feeling that somehow, in the end, I’d turn out to be horribly wrong and die and discover that I was going to suffer eternal torment in hell, even though intellectually it just seems so stupid. For awhile, I had to put the whole idea of hell behind the wall in my brain that hid the things that I was not to think about under any circumstances. I recently came to terms with this. In other news, I rarely say “oh my god” except in jest, except for the other day when I was in a car that very nearly got in an accident at a high speed and on reflex I started chanting “Oh god I don’t want to die oh god I don’t want to die”Once we were safe I was rather embarrassed.
I was raised in a secular household. My father was nominally Christian but never mentioned it, my mother openly mocks certain religious beliefs, but generally holds an agnostic-but-respectful view towards it. Most of my friends and extended family were equally ambivalent, so I can’t say I had any religious beliefs instilled that I’ve had to get over. I now consider myself an atheist and I can be quite confrontational about religion (though I often hold my tongue to avoid hurting people’s feelings). And I still have these “someone is reading my thoughts” and “wishful thinking can change the outcome” beliefs. I know they’re irrational and I chide myself for it at times.I think thoughts like that are just human nature. It probably helps to explain why theism can even come into existence in the first place.
I was raised by baptists: General Regular Baptists, who think that you shouldn’t have anything to do with Southern Baptists because they’re WAY too liberal. The lingering issues? Mostly lack of social skills. We were raised in a way that made sure we wouldn’t have any friends in the outside community (the kids next door were the only exceptions). As a result, I don’t think I had a genuine friendship until I got to college. I think Dawkins totally has it right: this sort of religious indoctrination is nothing more than child abuse.And on top of that, I have massively low self esteem as a result of growing up in an extremely conservative and religious area of the country. I always felt I was extremely unattractive because guys were never interested in me when I was a teenager and young adult. Now, in my late 30s, through the wonders of Facebook I have discovered that most of the guys I pursued as a young adult were gay. Only of course they were in the closet because the extreme religiosity meant they couldn’t come out. Probably they hadn’t even figured out why they weren’t attracted to me, because it’s not like exploring your sexuality was encouraged. It took getting out of the oppressive environment, going to college somewhere open, and years of self discovery before they would even know. But it turns out my problem was that I didn’t have a penis. I’ve gone through my whole life thinking I was ugly and undesirable just because of religious dogma and our societal oppression of gays. Now I’m in my late 30s and horribly confused. Maybe I’m attractive and have no way of knowing it. Thinking I’m ugly is just too ingrained. I really can’t shake it. Maybe I’d dress differently or carry myself differently if I’d ever had a reason to think I was attractive. I have no way of knowing.
That rang a bell before I even finished reading the question. I for one, and I think all of those who have been raised religious, have probably the littlest things that was the only way we were taught to do things stuck in the back of our brains, but I try to get rid of those one by one.Aas soon as I recall there’s no reason for doing it; example, saying ‘bless you’ after someone sneezes, I stopped doing that after the quizical question by George Carlin, “bless me with what?”. I now instead refer to” cover your face with your sleeve in case a handkerchief is not approachable, we don’t want you blessings of germs and mucous all over us.”
Jon,Of course: but I’m with Sam Harris (as an ex-Christian of course) in observing that the existence of the so called moderates creates the space for the so called fundamentalists. Extremist or moderate, all Christians who look to the bible for truth usually end up with some pretty horrible views about women, the life issues, maybe gay people etc. It’s because the agenda comes first, and finding common ground on that agenda is the top priority.Doing the right thing because it’s the right thing isn’t even there.Doug: Rechelle’s post was not in anyway ironic I believe. I felt a deep connection to the points made – as have many thousands of others I believe. She expressed my own views perfectly (and with a beautiful honesty in fact).Cheers Jim
Yes, I always wondered why the english-speakers say “bless you” after a sneeze.
The most important moment in my becoming an atheist was when a high school teacher of mine made a comment about mythology. She was telling us about a holy site in ancient Greece where all sorts of miracles of the medical sort had occured. One was that a virgin gave birth after being pregnant for an impossibly long time. Everyone laughed at how stupid that was and she asked, “Miracles and a virgin birth remind me of another story most of you probably believe in.” I wish I could thank her for challenging us like that.
Hi everyone–first post here–I was raised Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, which is almost like a mainstream Protestant church except they still insist that the world is only 6000 years old. I kicked that belief to the curb a few years before kicking the rest of it.Most of the hangups I see here I never had, fortunately. I used to feel guilty about masturbation when I still believed, but I lost that guilt pretty quick. Still have a hard time with actual sex, though; not because I feel guilty about it but because actually having sex involves not just me but someone else–therein lies the problem. But that’s another topic.One thing that did take a long time to leave me was saying some kind of prayer before going to bed. For a long time it was the only shred of belief that still hung on–I don’t know why but when I would turn off all the lights in my apartment before going to bed some tiny repressed part of me was just a little afraid that some demonic entity might make an appearance, attracted by my playing computer RPGs (that was laid on my not by my church but from fundie websites I stupidly read). I felt like I’d have to fire off a quick prayer to keep the place evil-spirit-free. That went away when I discovered I never had that problem sleeping in other places, so after 4 1/2 months in Iraq (I’m in the Air Force) never praying once before bed, I guess the habit just broke that way.Only two things left. First, I can’t help but wonder sometimes “what if I’m wrong and there really is a hell and I’m destined for it?” and this makes my inevitable death seem a little bit frightening.Other thing: I still never told my family–my parents and older brother. How can I? All three of them are hardcore right-wing Glenn Beck-watching socially conservative Christians. My Dad especially has a dislike for anyone who isn’t a right-wing conservative Christian. I don’t know how he’d react but it would be unpleasant. And my Mom, I just know it would make her cry.
I *wish* I could break the habit and switch to Gesundheit, or anything else for that matter. So I’m not an oddball for kicking myself everytime it slips out!Ditto for exclamatory phrases like “Good Lord!”, “Jesus H. Christ!”, “for Christ’s sake”, etc.
Thank you, very good point! One less thing to kick myself about. I will blaspheme at will!
GrumpyMrGruff,I am *totally* going to use and promote ‘Jesus Titty-F*cking Polygamous Christ of Latter-Day Saints’. That’s outstanding!
Anybody else have problems when people say they will pray for you?It drives me crazy that I get a deer-in-the-headlights thing about this. Assuming the person who said it truly has good (albeit misdirected) intentions, it would be so rude to say, “would you mind please sacrificing a chicken as well, because if you’re going to help you may as well go all out”, which is what I’d really like to say. But I can’t just bring myself to say the polite “thank you” and leave it at that, since that would make me feel like a hypocrite. What to say?
Don’t you love that double-standard-guilt thing? My Dad once told me his only disappointment in me was that I am not religious. Never mind that he stopped going to church when I was young, got divorced from my mother (super no-no for a supposed Catholic) and got remarried and divorced again, and — most importantly — went out of his way to teach me to think for myself and to not accept received wisdom uncritically (truly beautiful thing for a father to do). Why should he be surprised that I turned out this way? In a way, he taught me to be an atheist.
Being attractive is like all other kinds of confidence, it’s about pretending until you believe and then everyone else believes too. If you dress well and wear a bit of make-up, mascara and lipstick are the basics IMO, then you will be more attractive and feel more attractive. It’s a circle and you can start small and build up from there. Please don’t give up on yourself, god knows none of us are Angelina Jolie (lol) but that doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy yourself. If you’re worried about buying clothes take along a friend who’s taste you like and have a day out, you deserve it.
Three cognitive errors rife in a religious society (even amongst the nonreligious):1) Vulnerability to Is/Ought and Naturalistic Fallacies (“It’s not natural!”)2) Belief in Fate and/or other teleological meaning-given (as opposed to meaning-we-make) beliefs (“It was meant to be.”/”It’s all for the best.”)3) The idea of sacrificial suffering (“I’ll hurt myself to make up for what I did to you.”)
*delurking* My mother is Christian, but not a devotee of any particular sect — when we moved, we’d just go to whatever was the closest church. Which is how I ended up being baptized three times (making me a former “MethoBaptiTerian”). I played along from about age 12 on, despite my growing qualms and disbelief, right through my wedding and baptisms of my three kids, but after my divorce, I really just thought, “Enough! I don’t believe any of this shit!” I became a pagan for awhile because, quite honestly, it was just the thing to freak out my former mother-in-law.I’m not sure what I am these days. I don’t worship anything — not gods or nature, I don’t follow any religious practice, and I don’t believe there’s any sky-daddy (or mommy). But I can’t help but believe there is some greater force binding all things. Not a god-like “force” but some as-yet-unknown thing to be discovered by science. The only way I can explain it is that I’m a rock collector — not special rocks or even pretty ones; in fact most of them I find on the side of the road during my walks — and the ones I bring home “feel” right when I pick them up.My two biggest hangups are: life-after-death (I like thinking of the dead, especially those I’ve loved, as continuing on in some way) and Ouija boards, which just creep me out because my grandmother (who was about as agnostic as you could get without being an atheist) absolutely freaked when she saw a cousin and I playing with one and said they opened doors better left closed.
I was raised Catholic and it took a while to understand that faith and feelings are really crappy ways to know anything true. Religion gives you this dippy idea that the truth will “resonate” with you– that you don’t want to be like “doubting Thomas”.Religion has always been sort of embarrassing to me. I never could get it to makes sense. I’d prefer people kept their magical beliefs to themselves (the way they do with their fetishes and bowel habits), so that I can presume they are rational like me. I don’t like having to walk on eggshells to protect the feelings of believers when I know my feelings are not any concern of theirs. I end up feeling sad and embarrassed for them– like I would for any delusional person, I guess. They may as well be telling me that the aliens are giving them anal probes. TMII do find goofing on religion cathartic… a nice way to heal the damage inflicted on my mind from childhood indoctrination. I had a lot of vague worries in child hood about whether I loved and believed in the right invisible guy(s) with the right fervency and was following the right rubric to win “happily ever after” on the pass/fail test that supposedly was my life. (Heck I still don’t know how you make yourself “love” or “believe”. My feelings and thoughts are not really subject to that level of control. ) I’m glad I can laugh at that which once caused me much angst. I hope sharing our stories makes it easier for others going through the process.
The best reply I’ve heard to “I’ll pray for you” is “Thanks, and I’ll THINK for you.”
I segued to “woo” because I thought faith and feelings were good ways to know something… I picked that idea up from religion, no doubt. (My Mormon friends told me about the “burning in the bosom”…)There are a couple of documentaries about this guy named Clive Wearing (you can google him and “youtube”). Clive damaged his hippocampus, so he can’t make any new memories. It’s really sad, because he always thinks he’s just waking up from a coma. He’ll cry because he missed seeing his children grow up… but he didn’t! And you can’t tell him, because he won’t remember.I thought, if you can’t remember without a hippocampus, how can you be anything at all without a brain? I realized the soul couldn’t be real. (Oddly, Clives condition made his wife MORE religious–but it made me a confirmed rationalist.). Despite eons of belief, there is not an iota of evidence for souls– though every scientist would be interested in refining and honing and testing such evidence if there were any. We spend millions to collect star dust! And look how much we’ve come to learn it the few years since we discovered DNA! What scientist wouldn’t be interested in a soul– not just for themselves… but for their loved ones… to help ensure a decent afterlife or immortality or whatever. And yet, there’s nothing. Souls seem an illusion just like a flat earth or the notion that the sun goes across the sky.Clive took care of my last vestige of belief– even though, I really, really wanted to believe, because I lost a husband to cancer when we were both 28. Before Clive, I had woo-ish beliefs like “the secret” or “creative visualization”, but when it didn’t work as advertised, I thought it was because I didn’t focus or believe enough. But as I understand how unlikely the soul was… and that we can test things that are real… my new-agey type woo disappeared too. I think it’s somewhat natural for humans to appeal to or believe in the supernatural to help us feel in control of things we can’t control or to give us something that feels like an explanation when we don’t understand something.
Me too.The nice think about atheism, is that we cull our “members” from all faiths. (ha)
I don’t think I buy that claim. It sounds like something some fool conservative Christian made up to make his Jesus sound less like some hippy pacifist.
Try saying “Gesundheit” which is German for “good health.” It’s said in Germany and not uncommonly here in the USA as a response to another person’s sneeze. Maybe it’s supposed to ward off whatever disease the sneeze may be a symptom of.< pronounced roughly: guh-SOONT (oo as in moon) -hite. >
Same here. And it wasn’t just silly things like feeling like I probably did something wrong every time a cop was behind me –for many years, I couldn’t even feel happy without feeling guilty for being happy!I think it really messes with you to say “I am not worthy” over and over in church all those years.
I guess the occult is still where I have my hang-ups. I wasn’t raised explicitly religious, we never went to church or anything, but both my parents are conservative and profess some sort of belief in a God/the supernatural. My mother in particular is “open minded” about all sorts of weird supernatural things; she wasn’t the type to have crystals around the house or anything but she did buy into the Nostradamus stuff around the turn of the millenium, she’d read UFO books, said she heard ghosts in the house, etc.When I was little I somehow got involved in Christianity through a friend and went to Bible day camp and such. I considered myself a christian until I was 14 or so when for some reason I felt like a failure in my faith. I felt like I wasn’t doing enough and so I tried really really hard to “let God into my heart”, but I never felt anything and started to question whether there was really anything there. At that point I was also questioning certain moral teachings from the Bible (about homosexuality and women in particular). I finally came to the conclusion about a year later that there wasn’t a God, but I still subscribed to some sort of hippy-dippy higher power spirituality thing. I looked into other religions for a while, particularly new-agey or Buddhist inspired stuff, trying to find something that felt right, until I realized what I was doing: trying to find something that “felt right” was no way to figure out the nature of the world or establish moral standards.I had a moment a little later when I was walking through a dark room and was afraid a ghost was there (we lived in a big creepy 300 year old farmhouse). I literally stopped where I was and thought, “look, you don’t believe in the afterlife, or the supernatural, so just stop being scared”. It largely worked. But a couple years ago my friends went to this old covered bridge and were scared shitless because they said they saw a bunch of ghosts; they even brought a picture back that was pretty uncanny (it looked like a soldier standing in the distance in a field, and it was identifiable as such before they told me what it was). I’m not convinced by any means that it really was a ghost, but I thought to myself: if I saw what they did, would I have gone nearer to investigate? Probably not. I also probably wouldn’t participate in Ouija, a dark magick ritual, etc. out of being spooked, despite knowing that both are full of crap.
You can’t stand it because you know it’s aggressive, pushy behavior on their part. This is nothing for you to feel guilty about; it’s just your slow realization of the way the religious take advantage of social convention to push their agenda and feel better about themselves.
I occasionally get panicky about end-times things. My wife was raised atheist (well – Hungarian Catholic Communism-brand atheism: all the guilt, none of the spiritual support) and says she feels the same thing.Wouldn’t it suck to refuse to believe in Christianity and then it turns out to be true and you’re cast on the fire? Which is, of course, just one of the many mechanisms it uses to get its hooks into your brain. If these memes weren’t effective they wouldn’t have survived.
I really kind of like the chicken thing, actually – though I’d never have the guts to say it.Our son has kidney problems, and through an immense amount of effort (which consumed about five years of my wife’s full effort after she finished her doctorate in theoretical physics, so that she’s only now really starting her career again), we seem to have it under control.Her mother said the only reason he’s doing better is that my sister-in-law and her husband – devotees of one of the most loathsome evangelical sects it has ever been my misfortune to witness – have been praying for us.Now, normally, I’m touched when people pray for us. We have a number of religious friends and we coexist just fine; we don’t make a Thing of being atheist, and they don’t make a Thing of being Christian; we’re just friends. When they mention they’re praying, we thank them and know they’re expressing their concern.But my sister-in-law and her husband are malicious. We can only talk to their kids under strict supervision, and the husband screens our calls and reads all letters before they’re approved. He’s basically in this church because it validates his sociopathy. I can’t express how painful they really are.It may well be that they’re praying for our son. But in their case, they’re not doing so because they love him, or us – they’re doing it so they can feel magical power over us and chase our demons out. So when my mother-in-law said that (I wasn’t present, so this was after the fact) I went into a real rant, which is not too typical for me.Prayer can be injurious. The Christian’s use of prayer to feel magical power over situations and people can be useful in stress relief for the Christian – or it can be another expression of aggression. Nobody ever talks about that.
You can always say “Gesundheit”, which is just wishing the other person health. That’s what I’ve always done anyway, and it assuages your need (and the social convention) to acknowledge the sneeze, while not being so weird as to draw attention.
As anyone who works in a nursing home will tell you, rote responses and especially swearing must come from a different part of the brain than normal conversation, because stroke victims who can’t get out a word that they want to speak can still swear like longshoremen.
I have an atheist friend who is exactly the same way. She grew up in an ultra-religious Pentecostal church and despite rejecting everything else, her fear of the occult is still quite strong. Actually, she’s the reason I became…whatever I am. When we were 8, she invited my 6yo sister and I to “Bible School.” Sis and I went to a very laid-back church so the “speaking in tongues” and general insanity that erupted completely freaked us out. (Seriously traumatized me, to the point I still have nightmares on occasion, 30-mumble years later.) Well, over the hubbub, I kept hearing the minister telling us to come to the altar if we wanted to be saved. Being crying, absolutely terrified kids, we thought he knew an escape route. We were so disgusted when we got there to find out he only wanted to tell us about Jesus. Yo, already heard of him, I WANNA CALL MY MOM! I believe there was also kicking of shins until someone complied.
Oh, fuck, Suzie…me too. And I only started deconversion some 16 months ago. If it helps, you can look at tentmaker.org for some information. They’re very much a Christian site, but they’re universalists, and they have some VERY interesting material on the origin and evolution of the Hell we know today.I’m not entirely convinced of course, but it helps to know there ARE other viewpoints.Email me at azumahazuki at gee-mail dot calm (you know how to change this; it’s so I don’t get spammed by site-crawlers) if you want to talk; I’d be glad to talk with someone else with the same issues.– Hazuki
Actually, that didn’t come until AFTER I gave up on religion. (heh you think they’d actually teach you that stuff? LAWD no, might actually get people thinking for themselves or something.)Proper religious upbringing may give lip service to reading the Bible, but in actuality doesn’t want you to read more of the Bible then the few verses pulled out of context and spun so complex it makes scant sense within the theological principals of the original text.But no, if you can get a decent translation and read the whole thing in context it’s not that bad of a read. And most of those obnoxious beliefs Christians hold tend to be non-biblical (often to the point that the Bible speaks against what they’re doing) and nothing pisses off baby Jesus more then hypocrisy like that.
From a linguistic perspective I always think it’s silly to try and change something like that. Now-a-days it hardly has the religious connotation that it once had, may people from many religions or no religion at all but who speak English still use it as just a polite thing to say when someone around them sneezes. It’s like an “Excuse me” only for your nose. In some sense of it refusing to use parts of your language because it “belongs” to some religion either comes across (to me) like you are acknowledging that said religion has power. Heck the full phrase is supposed to be “God bless you” but for the sake of making it less religious people have dropped the “God” bit. It’s been a long time since it had any true religious meaning so I can’t see why people should get bent out of shape about it.
And some of the most attractive women I know would be totally out of place on a cat walk, say: there’s this slightly geeky looking woman I know who runs emergency aid programmes. She’s just beautiful in an all round kind of way though she’d never get a job as a model; and a friend who ended up a journalist – not attractive at all in the normal sense, but she is just gorgeous because of her humour and sassy attitude. You’d never want to go drinking with anyone else. Etc.Unfortunately looks can matter lots (and perhaps, unfortunately more so for women because we men can be seriously wrapped up in the physical while women are so much more forgiving – thankyou!). But also lots of us can turn whatever there is into beautiful if the person is beautiful in themselves. Honsetly – I do this all the time…
I grew up in a very religious household. It wasn’t until college that I finally dumped the ridiculous enterprise. I’ve given up virtually all of it and have been open about it to my gravely disappointed family. But what I’ve found difficult is giving up praying before I do something difficult or, more specifically, dangerous. For instance, I do a lot of skateboarding, mountain biking, and snowboarding. Often, before I attempt to do something that has a very finite chance of getting me injured, I have a knee jerk reaction to say a prayer asking God to protect me. I have to tell myself not to do it because I know, rationally, it makes no difference whatsoever. But what I find interesting is that the ritual itself was something that was a calming agent as I still have the natural reaction to start a prayer when I’m in certain anxiety-causing situations. Obviously, it stands as evidence for remnants of an almost successful brain-washing campaign.
I think a better response might be, “Thanks for nothing.”
You just have to be strong. Don’t let them affect other free-thinkers as well.
And the story of the Tower of Babel really meant that languages developed separately in different parts of the world, too, right? The bible is so wise and I’m so dumb. Doug, can you recommend a good church for me to follow because, clearly, I can’t do a good enough job interpreting God’s true intentions in the bible.
“…or a newer one like banging on the TV or even the computer monitor when things go wrong with the program or signal, none of these will actually fix or prevent anything,”What?! Utter sacrilege!
I heartily recommend a replacement “ritual”!”I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”Because in the grand scheme of things, if you’re going to take your rituals from a book, you might as well pick a decent writer!
Having been raised Uniting Church of Australia/Presbyterian, I don’t recall any strong views on abortion (although there were heaps of letures about no sex until you’re married). What I picked up from school, newspapers, etc, was that sometimes they are medically necessary. After the heartbreak of loosing three wanted babies to miscarriage, I know it would take a very strong reason to make me have an abortion, however, I am very strongly in favour of women being able to make the choice that’s right for them, not having someone else’s choice imposed on them.
Or even better, HAVING lots of sex, with lots of different partners, so you can figure out what you do and don’t like, as opposed to what you’ve been told you should NOT like. (Why doesn’t there seem to be any sort of sex that you should like?)
Being attractive or not is really more about how you see yourself than about a body shape, weight, or facial features. It’s a reflection of your level of self respect and how you treat yourself. Do you look after yourself – fitness and grooming? Do you dress in a way that is flattering to your shape? How do you move, do you lumber as though weighed down or is there a spring in your step? Do you smile at people or do you look at your feet? How do you expect others to treat you, as an equal, or as the drudge? As an intelligent being, or a bimbo?Like you, my problem was a lack of penis. It wasn’t that I was told that women should not be attractive, it’s that I was told by my father that because I was a girl, I was automatically stupid, worthless, a waste bothering to educate, incompetent (even at “women’s work”) and every cent that was spent on clothing, housing, or otherwise looking after me was begrudged. My mother simply believed that she couldn’t produce anything of value – and that included her children. So from her I heard phrases such as “who are you to think YOU can do/be/have that”. I’m nearly 40 and she still tells me that I couldn’t possibly do that (whatever that is under discussion).I spent much of my childhood and teenage years trying to be a better boy than the boys – a losing battle if ever there was one, whilst my mother nagged me about having to be “ladylike”, and being smart, knowing science and being able point out when someone had their facts wrong (as my father often did), was not “ladylike”.It has taken years to get over and I’m not there yet. I still am hesitant to express an opinion, I have to push myself to call bullshit when I hear it. I am finally gaining confidence that I am smart, and being an avid reader with a strong interest in science, can at least argue facts. I’ve gone back to Uni to study building design. I am doing reasonably well, enjoying it, and in an area that is still so male dominated, am finding that I can beat the boys – by being the best WOMAN I can be. The more I do, the more I gain confidence that I can do it.I don’t think my father’s misogyny has religion as it’s cause, but that is certainly how he justifies it. Plain sexism I can fight, but sexism mixed with religion still tends to make me panic and feel trapped, despite having rejected both sexism and christianity.
Hear hear!
You have my heartfelt sympathies. I’ve had the experience of two miscarriages and one still-birth, and agonized over all of them, but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t let my current wife have an abortion should she want one. It’s not much of an issue, thanks to Dr. Snippy, but those aren’t 100%.
Unfortunately, things like misogyny and racism seem to be inherited–from being one’s parents. It’s mostly self-hate passed down the generations. Congratulations on your escape from that nasty cycle. I do think the current educational generation benefits from public awareness. Yes, these things can be cured! :)
Cue profane response:It drives me fucking nuts. I also hate it when people (especially on facebook) say they’re praying for this or that, like when the kid, Kyron, disappeared, and I’m thinking, “Wait a minute, you hypocritical fuck, you don’t even believe in God!” Of course, it drives me even further nuts when some idiot prays for their team (or most likely, their kids’ team) to win. Do they really think their hypothetical God gives a shit who wins a game? If they were “real” Christians, they’d realize how profane that was.Thanks for letting me vent. Anaxagoras, you got me where it hurts. :)
My heart goes out to you. It’s not easy to face that kind opposition from your family. I imagine it’s a little like being a closeted gay.
The ironic thing is that Hell was made up by “Saints” Paul and Augustine. The Old Testament only refers to “Sheol” which means “the grave”. The only direct reference to hell is by Paul, who liked (and probably beat off to the thought of) saying people would burn for this and that. In Revelation, John says that “the Beast” would be thrown into a fiery pit (only) after Armageddon, and that only for a thousand years.Fire and brimstone is all well and good, but only works as a scare tactic. Shame on the X-ians for inventing it.
Omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient, all in one package? I’ve got a bridge to sell you. Cash, please, and in small bills.-paraphrased from “The Notebooks of Lazaurs Long”Thank you, Robert Heinlein!
Dear St. Anthony, I seem to have lost my faith. Oh, wait, never mind.
Teehee! Not at all.
“while not rejecting the concept of something ‘more’ that is good, loving, beautiful, and completely inclusive.”I don’t think you get this atheism thing.
I haven’t been on in a while, so I just read this now, so I’m sure it’s after the fact, but:I *need* to believe that my dead sister isn’t gone forever and that someday I’ll be able to be with her again. The need didn’t crop up with any other relative – grandparents, uncle, even when our dad died. It’s been over four years and the thought of her being a non-entity just fills me with grief and rage and sets me off sobbing. I know it’s irrational, and I know it’s just my desire for life to be fair. I need to believe it anyway.
What I don’t understand is why “Jesus Christ!” is the only name used as an expression of surprise/upset/etc. Why not “Oh Buddha!”, or “Oh Gandhi!”, or “Oh Muhammad!”. Or even “Oh Dawkins!”? Why not replace Jesus H Christ with Charlie P Darwin? (Strikes me it only works cos there is something “special” about this particular name, but I’d be interested to hear other thoughts)