Comments

  1. gijoel says

    I have to admit that a nazi would probably get really hurt if you threw a milkshake at them in that sort of weather.

  6. gijoel says

    @3 Well I’m sure the milkshake would freeze before you’ve taken two steps away from the Starbucks you bought it from.

  11. Sonja says

    I was only upset that they named the Nazi “Hard Right Jay.” My nephew’s name is Jay and he’s a summa cum laude liberal.

  12. Akira MacKenzie says

    While appreciate the sentiment, my tactics would be far more final.

    And by ”final, ” I mean ”lethal.”

    A dead right-winger can’t discriminate; can’t spread racism, hetrosexism, capitalism, or theism; can’t use violence against us and our goals. The dead can’t do anything but rot.

  13. John Morales says

    Akira, murder is your, um, final solution?

    (Yeah, I know it’s just depressed bluster, but still. There is literally no upside to it)

  14. PaulBC says

    @12 @13

    Didn’t we all read Crime and Punishment in high school and work through the drawbacks to this approach?

  15. John Morales says

    Nope, PaulBC. I’ve never read that (sounds boring), nor is a work of fiction a great guide to life.

    I do know the gist of it, but thing is, you’re focusing on the moral aspect; me, I prefer to focus on all of them, pragmatically. Angsting about doing stuff is not what would dissuade me, but rather the consequences.

  16. PaulBC says

    I think from Dostoyevsky’s perspective, the problem is psychological as much as it’s moral. You probably don’t want the blood of some random Nazi on your hands. It could be very different if they’re in the act of threatening you or somebody else, but if you’re only speculating on what they might do in the future, it’s really not going to turn out well.

  17. John Morales says

    Well, no. Murder is generally problematic.

    To legally kill people, one has to join law enforcement, the army, or similar.
    And you don’t generally get to decide who you get to kill.

    (And I know for a fact that, in the Australian army, if you say you want to join to kill people, you’ll be rejected)

    —

    But my major point was that Akira was providing a big, juicy cherry to pick.

    (And be assured, the odd comment on this site has been cherry-picked in the past!)

  18. unclefrogy says

    that video reminded me of a poster or photo I saw online caption was antifa disrupts something or other nazi
    picture was something like D-Day landing
    can not remember the details but the message was pretty simple we did this before
    uncle frogy

  20. stroppy says

    I haven’t seen Letterkenny. I’ll have to check it out. Reminds me a bit of Northern Exposure–great show.

    The thing with “alt-right” is that the rebranding is meant to hoover up all sorts, including feckless wannabes, so I have no problem with the portrayal in this clip.

    JM @17
    Brings to mind the psychological interview in the draft scene from Alice’s Restaurant…

    AM @19 etc.
    What the hell, dude? Get a grip.

  21. Akira MacKenzie says

    20 @ stroppy

    It’s kind of hard to “get a grip” when there is a vast, totalitarian mob of heavily armed bigots who are on the verge of a live-fire replay of Kristallnacht and all their potential victims want to do is wring their hands and winge about how killing them first is “murder.”

    I’m sorry, but they’ve made their intentions clear. They have no inclinations of following your precious rules or morality. If they have the chance, they will kill us. The time of quibbling over whether committing violence “makes us no better than the Nazis” has long, long past. This is now about survival, and we should do what needs to be done to survive.

    Yes, that includes killing Nazis before they kill us.

  22. aramad says

    “This is how one deals with Nazis appropriately.”

    No it isn’t. Willingness to attack to injure is scarcely removed from willingness to kill. You have been sliding down this path for a while now, starting with endorsement of the moderate punch given to Richard Spencer, up to endorsement of a nutjob arsonist with 6 magazines and a willingness to go down in a gunfight; I hope it doesn’t continue.

    And what the hell is with post12??

  27. Akira MacKenzie says

    You have been sliding down this path for a while now, starting with endorsement of the moderate punch given to Richard Spencer, up to endorsement of a nutjob arsonist with 6 magazines and a willingness to go down in a gunfight; I hope it doesn’t continue.

    I’m sure Mr. Spencer and his fellows appreciate your commitment to non-violence. It will make it so much easier to put you into a gas chamber when you don’t struggle.

  30. aramad says

    “I’m sure Mr. Spencer and his fellows appreciate your commitment to non-violence. It will make it so much easier to put you into a gas chamber when you don’t struggle.”

    Another idiotic assumption that ‘don’t assault people’ means ‘never do anything to oppose bad politics’. Making that inaccurate equivalence does indeed make you the immature one.

  32. Akira MacKenzie says

    JEZUS MOTHER FUCKING CHRIST PEOPLE!!!

    I know nearly 80-cushy-years of relative peace, prosperity, and security has made most Westerners (especially in an America that was almost entirely untouched by the Axis powers) forget what Hitler and his fellows did to the world, but some of us paid attention in high school history class. We are in the midst of a resurgence of global fascism. We are already seeing the horrors that led to the Holocaust play out again from Northern Syria to our own Southern border. We are seeing democracy being trampled upon by bigoted authoritarians. We have already seen armed white supremacists in the streets shouting Neo-Nazi slogans, and more than a few have KILLED for those twisted ideas.

    This needs to be stopped. NOW! If being proactive and striking first stops this trend, then so be it. I won’t lose a nano-second or sleep nor shed one tear for dead fascists. The naïve pacifism of the New Left has only allowed these thugs to fester and grow again. Whatever your noble intentions, they have failed.

  35. Akira MacKenzie says

    aramad @ 30

    Another idiotic assumption that ‘don’t assault people’ means ‘never do anything to oppose bad politics’.

    Right, because everything the mainstream Left has used up to now to stop them has worked SO well! Hell, letting them march through town is defended by our fabled “civil libertarians” because it’s only fair to let Nazis have so much contribute to the precious “Marketplace of Ideas!” It’s only fair to give them just as free and open a forum as those who oppose right-wing authoritarianism.

    Also, kindly explain to me why a Nazi doesn’t deserve to be assaulted?

  36. Akira MacKenzie says

    aramad @ 30

    …don’t assault people’ nazis also means ‘defending nazi honor’!

    Fixed that for you.

  37. PaulBC says

    Akira MacKenzie@32

    Your viewpoint is wrong both in terms of justifiability and effectiveness. Nazis marching through town is repugnant, but not a credible threat in itself justifying lethal countermeasures. Not unless they start using lethal means first. In terms of effectiveness, there are other ways to deprive them of platforms and deprive them of a favorable reception. Murdering people almost certainly has the opposite approach. While they may be awful people, a murder affects so many connected lives that the actual consequences are very unlikely to be what you’re seeking (again, ethics aside; this part is about effectiveness).

    @21

    the verge of a live-fire replay of Kristallnacht and all their potential victims want to do is wring their hands and winge about how killing them first is “murder.”

    Wrong on two counts. First, you’d really need more evidence to predict an imminent Kristallnacht. The environment in Germany was unified in its anti-Semitism to an alarming degree. There are alarming trends in the US right now, but not at the same level. (I.e., “It can happen here” but that doesn’t mean it is right now.) Second, “potential victims” want to combat the alt-right using a variety of legal, non-violent measures, and these have been effective. If we were just ignoring rising hate groups (e.g. after Charlottesville) we’d be at a very different place right now. Is SPLC wringing their hands? I think they’re working hard and a lot more effectively than either of us. Antifa uses more confrontational approaches, but they’re not murdering anyone either.

    So, yeah, get a grip. Both your words and supposed plan sound like something out of a bad movie. Real life doesn’t work that way.

    And I was originally joking about Crime and Punishment but maybe the kids today aren’t reading enough Dostoyevsky in school. Contrary to John Morales, it’s not boring at all, or I didn’t find it so. You don’t have to accept the conclusions (which are certainly in part a sign of Dostoyevsky’s religiosity) but it’s a believable study of the psychology of guilt, and ethics aside I would argue that most of us don’t want to go there.

  38. Akira MacKenzie says

    PaulBC @ 37

    Wow! Where have you been the last decade? I take it you don’t get TV or Internet under the rock you’ve been living under?

  39. Akira MacKenzie says

    <

    blockquote>Is SPLC wringing their hands? I think they’re working hard and a lot more effectively than either of us. Antifa uses more confrontational approaches, but they’re not murdering anyone either.

    <

    blockquote>

    Which is probably why they’re gaining power again.

    Also, it’s not “murder.” It’s never “murder” to kill a Nazi.

  40. Akira MacKenzie says

    Grrrrr…. rassa-frassin outdate comments section…

    PaulBC @ 37

    <

    blockquote>Is SPLC wringing their hands? I think they’re working hard and a lot more effectively than either of us. Antifa uses more confrontational approaches, but they’re not murdering anyone either.

    Which is probably why they’re gaining power again.

    Also, it’s not “murder.” It’s never “murder” to kill a Nazi.

  41. PaulBC says

    @38 Right I must be living under a rock. That explains why I do not see an imminent need for lethal force. (And having to type these missives on a manual typewriter is such a pain in the ass that I am tempted to tell my assistant that I’m just going to get on the damn “computer” myself one of these days.)

    I am actually out of touch with some parts of the media. I’m online a lot but usually skip videos, and watch very little TV. I’m pretty up to date on news sources like Slate and The Atlantic and paid close attention to Charlottesville and the response, which while not completely effective, could have been a lot worse.

    Speaking of decades, the public acceptance of groups targeted by the alt-right (let’s go with LGBTQ in particular) is higher now than it was during my formative years in the 80s. It’s also true that the hate is more overt. This is a difficult situation and requires a just and effective solution. Killing the first Nazi you encounter is neither.

  43. Akira MacKenzie says

    Tabby Lavalamp @ 42

    After all they have done and what they want to do, why is pre-emptively killing a Nazi “murder?”

  44. Akira MacKenzie says

    It’s also true that the hate is more overt.

    And why is hate more overt? I’ll tell you. Because there are no dire consequences for being a racist, sexist, homophobe, capitalist pig, or Bible-beater. All you get is a stern talking too and maybe you’re FB account get’s suspend for a month.

  45. PaulBC says

    Akira MacKenzie@44
    That doesn’t explain what’s happened over 35 years or more. In the 1980s, you could be overtly anti-gay and it was often publicly acceptable (I knew people absolutely obsessed with homophobic “jokes” and it took years before AIDS was normalized as a disease to be treated, not a consequence of immoral behavior). If you were in a reasonably cosmopolitan environment like a college campus, you would get some pushback, but a lot less than you will now. In the 1970s, in the suburbs of Philadelphia (not talking about the deep South here) it was common to hear outright racism, including the N word. Again, you might get pushback (and it wasn’t tolerated in my family) but you wouldn’t be an instant pariah (which you ought to be). Things have changed for the better. (OK, the N word is problematic when white people want to claim they’re just quoting hip hop lyrics, but it is a very different thing from the 70s).

    And to some extent, the hatemongers were showing outright hate and marching in the streets just like they do now. Nazis marched in Skokie, IL, and the KKK had their rallies as well as cross-burnings. Actually in my own neighborhood (again, not the deep South) there were attempts in the mid-70s to prevent a black family from moving in. (My parents to their credit weren’t having any of it and had been through the same crap years earlier in 50s Levittown.) The family moved in without incident. They were great neighbors who stayed for a decade or more (though I think my own neighborhood is still very white; there might be more Asians now).

    I don’t deny that something is different now, but it’s important to understand what’s different. The alt-right is influencing young people and claiming to be kind of edgy and new whereas paleo-bigotry was wrapped in “community standards” of various kinds. Kids might be bigots, but nobody thought it was “hip” to be a bigot. Today’s hate groups are visible far beyond their actual numbers. All of this is troubling (and again, stop reading and go to something like the SPLC site where they actually keep tabs on this).

    What has changed is not that we used to kill Nazis and now just pull down their facebook accounts. That’s ahistorical nonsense. Even during WWII, the allies were primarily fighting an enemy bent on world domination rather than fighting Nazism or anti-Semitism in the abstract. And we weren’t “killing Nazis” in the years since then, nor in the 70s and 80s, when there really were Nazis and other hate groups.

    What may have changed is that the hate groups are smarter in using new technology. They also pretend to be the “hip new thing” rather than what you hear from your unfiltered aging relatives at Thanksgiving. Another thing that may have changed is that a backlash is more apparent when society overall has moved in the opposite direction. I am not saying that we should stand back and watch Charlottesville or Richard Spencer’s latest attempt and do absolutely nothing. We need to keep a close watch and we need to develop effective countermeasures. The idea that there are “no consequences” or that we need to be more violent in our response is both wrongheaded and dangerous. (And FWIW I think milkshaking is fine; I was wondering recently if there could be a program of certifying protest milkshakes as food quality and not containing quick drying cement or other contaminants–kind of nip the rumors in the bud while providing a business opportunity.)

  46. booberry says

    Jesus farking Christ Akira. Enough with the internet tough guy horseshit. Something tells me you’re not snuffing out any of those animals in the red States anytime soon. Take it easy there, killer.

    Our country has become steadily more progressive throughout the years. I’m more worried about destroying the capitalists who write our laws. Trump and his “nazis” are the dying gasps of an aging and increasingly irrelevant demographic.

    Feel the Bern.

  47. unclefrogy says

    I do not know about actually hunting down the nazis and other white supremacists and killing them but it is what if they are unchecked it will end in. Make no mistake they are not some theoretical philosophical threat that will be satisfied by debate and rational civilized discourse. They worship violence. They are every bit as much a threat as any of the Islamic terrorists umbrella groups we are currently demonizing. they mean destruction down to the 5th generation. they mean a slave and master society with with themselves as despots.
    This is a country that has been steeped in Dirty Harry, Rambo , Shaft and the US Marines and will not walk peacefully into the slaughter house
    uncle frogy

  48. Akira MacKenzie says

    PaulBC @ 45

    Things have changed for the better.

    booberry @ 46

    Our country has become steadily more progressive throughout the years.

    Not in the Red State shithole where I’m stuck right now.

  49. PaulBC says

    In the mid-90s (when believe it or not, the web already existed any Alta Vista provided useful search results though it was harder to use than Google) I became aware the David Duke was online (writing bizarre, racist reviews of the Sgt. Bilko movie among other things) and telling other extremists how to get online. I stumbled upon Stormfront too, which was more overtly hateful.

    I confess that while I was appalled at this, I mostly laughed it off as the work of a few nuts that nobody cared about. That is not a mistake I would make today. However, there is a wide gulf between ignoring a problem and carrying out “extrajudicial killings” or murders in the name of all that is right and good. I do not think Southern Poverty Law Center consists of wimps or people who want to look the other way. They’re tough, they watch closely, and they will put up a fight.

  50. booberry says

    Akira @ 48

    As someone who’s been stuck in the Southeast his entire life, I feel your pain. Although Alabama did have a victory over Roy Moore recently, so there’s that.

  51. says

    @46 Booberry
    “Our country has become steadily more progressive throughout the years.”

    Really? Sometime soon the Supreme Court may make it legal to fire and refuse services to people who are trans or gay. Abortion rights are soon to follow. Children are put in cages, People are deported at the drop of a hat. Surveillance is the norm. Drone strikes on countries around the world are routine. The president makes a mockery of the constitution and laws. Police kill people of color without consequences or any legal justification.

    If this is progressive I really wonder what a non-progressive U.S. would look like.

  52. PaulBC says

    anna@51

    If this is progressive I really wonder what a non-progressive U.S. would look like.

    Any time before the Civil Rights movement, for example. Or it could look like the late 1980s when George H. W. Bush was utterly indifferent to the AIDS epidemic, and it took the work of activists to turn policies around. It could look like the passage of DOMA in 1996. It could look like Prop 187 in 1994 California.

    I’d be the last one to deny that “the bad guys are winning” when it comes to stacking the Supreme Court and repeated attempts to overturn federal protections of all kinds by the Trump administration. But public sentiment has absolutely been moving in the progressive direction. That’s the big reason we see the current backlash. There’s a lot to be done, but it shows no appreciation of history to suggest that we live in a uniquely bigoted time in the US.

  53. vucodlak says

    @ Akira MacKenzie, and everybody else for that matter

    It’s never “murder” to kill a Nazi.

    Yes, it is. Deliberately killing another person is always murder, whatever other comfortable euphemisms we might have for it. Nazis are most definitely people. We can’t forget that, either. It is murder to kill a Nazi. Murder is never a good thing. For that matter, assaulting people is never a good thing. Violence is bad.

    We need to understand all that first. After that, we need to understand that every wholly non-violent resistance action against Nazis has failed. The power of fascist totalitarians is growing around the world. They’re already killing millions.

    However, that doesn’t mean we should murder Nazis every time they pop their heads up. That doesn’t mean we should, or need to, murder or even assault every Nazi. In many cases, it’s sufficient to chase the fuckers out of town.

    Do not allow Nazis to march in your town. Do not allow them to hold ‘demonstrations.’ Do not allow them to speak at your universities. If all else fails, use violence to prevent them from doing so. If you let them become a public presence, you’re letting them recruit. You’re handing them political power like a knife on a silver platter, and they’ll cut your throat with it the first chance they get.

    Chase them out of town with a minimum of violence, but absolutely do not allow them rally. Violence is bad, but in the case of Nazis it’s the least bad option. Everything that’s stopped short of violence has only allowed them to gain power. A policy of pure non-violence has resulted in more violence. For fuck’s sake, we have Nazis building concentration camps, we have Nazi thugs committing mass murders, and we have a bunch of goddamned Nazis running the country and greenlighting genocide by other fascist thugs.

    Violence should never be easy. It should never be comfortable. Killing another human being is always murder, and murder is always bad. Sometimes, murdering someone may be the least bad option, but it should never be easy. We cannot go down the road of telling ourselves our enemies are inhuman, or that killing them isn’t murder. They are, it is, and there may come a time when we should do it anyway because the alternatives are worse.

    Noxious little assholes like the ones in the video? Don’t murder them. Chase them out of town, using violence if necessary, but don’t kill them. It doesn’t help anything to murder feckless little turds like that and, if they see how much they’re despised (particularly by other white people, who’ve they’ve been told secretly agree with them) they might just learn something and drop the Nazi shit for good.

    I understand your anger, Akira. I live in the festering puspot that gave the world Rush Limbaugh. His face (dis)graces the river wall downtown, eight feet high, and people who share his politics run this place. ‘Nice’ people have told me they’d love it if our scumbag Nazi president exterminated people like me right to my face, because they assumed I was one of them.

    But we are not them. Embracing cruelty and butchery without conscience or thought is what they do. We must always strive to be thoughtful and careful. If we sink to their level, they’ve won.

  54. says

    @52 PaulBC
    “There’s a lot to be done, but it shows no appreciation of history to suggest that we live in a uniquely bigoted time in the US.”

    I don’t think it is a uniquely bigoted time. I would never suggest that. I think the U.S is mostly not appreciably better than it ever has been. Minorities still live in fear and poverty, the world lives in fear of the U.S. deciding it deserves to have a regime change, gun violence is still rampant, people don’t have adequate health care, etc. I would argue that there hasn’t been that much progress. Maybe a bit, very slowly, but right now is a period of backtracking again.

  55. says

    I’m disappointed at those of you defending Nazis.

    Nazis are a credible, imminent threat to minorities, and y’all want to sit here and debate if it’s okay to defend against those who would outright KILL US if given the chance.

    Fucking hell.

  56. PaulBC says

    WMDKitty — Survivor@55

    Nonsense. The “debate” (at least with respect to Akira Mackenzie) is about preemptive homicide, not defense. Some Nazis would “KILL US given the chance” and some would not. There are good reasons to stop them from marching and intimidating communities. You can do this without killing them (for the most part) and you should.

    I also seriously doubt that anyone posting this sort of “tough” rhetoric at this site is prepared to act on it. (I would add that I sincerely hope I am correct about this.) How the hell do I know that you won’t decide I am a threat?

  57. vucodlak says

    @ WMDKitty – Survivor, #55
    Just so there’s no confusion on my position (my post being long and perhaps not entirely coherent), I want to be clear that I’m not defending Nazis. I believe it is often necessary to use violence in opposition to them, and that killing certain Nazis is almost certainly the least bad of our available options. I’m just arguing for discernment and, above all, for mercy.

    And yes, I know they won’t show mercy to us, but that’s what makes us different from them.

  58. vucodlak says

    @ me, #57
    Actually, scratch (part of) my last comment- I am, grudgingly, arguing in defense of some Nazis. I don’t like doing it, but I feel it’s necessary to draw the line as I have. I just don’t think it would be necessary or proper to murder every Nazi. There are other ways of holding people accountable and, if Nazis can be kept/removed from power, we should use them. Rehabilitation, not retribution, all that jazz.

    It isn’t about what they deserve, or answering like with like. It’s about doing the merciful, and therefore right, thing, which is the only way we have a chance of building a future without Nazis. Sometimes, unfortunately, the right thing to do is assault or kill Nazis. But not every time.

  59. PaulBC says

    vucodlak@58

    Well, I’d like to go on record as saying that murderous intent is not a capital crime, and I also still believe very strongly that criminal justice occurs in a court of law before a jury of one’s peers. (And also I am against capital punishment. Period. But that position is not necessary for the preceding point.)

    If it comes to civil war, all kinds of things might happen and I might feel differently about them. But war is not justice. It is irresponsible and just morally wrong to be treating the current situation as if it’s a war.

    I agree with most of your points about denying these hate groups a platform, but I believe this can be done ethically and effectively in a legal framework, at least for now. We’re not at failed-state level. Perilously close? Who knows, but there are more tools to work with now when it is not yet a war.

  60. vucodlak says

    @ PaulBC, #59

    I’d like to go on record as saying that murderous intent is not a capital crime

    That depends on your skin color. Or mental stability. Or the mood of your potential executioner.

    I also still believe very strongly that criminal justice occurs in a court of law before a jury of one’s peers.

    Gods’ blood… I don’t what it country you’re talking about, but that sure as hell isn’t how it works in the United States of America. Our courts have very little to do with “justice” of any kind.

    But the courts are irrelevant to this discussion.

    And also I am against capital punishment.

    Who said anything about punishment? Because I sure as hell didn’t.

    I’m against punishment, period. Its implementation is based on faulty premises, it’s not particularly effective, and the methods are frequently cruel.

    I agree with most of your points about denying these hate groups a platform, but I believe this can be done ethically and effectively in a legal framework

    What is ethical and what is legal are diametrically opposed here. The law is built to serve the interests of authoritarians. Their victims are at a massive disadvantage at every level.

    But again, I wasn’t discussing the law.

    Who knows, but there are more tools to work with now when it is not yet a war.

    As satisfying as it is to turn the tools of the enemy against them, if you forget who those tools were built to serve you’re liable to fall right into the enemy’s hands. Case in point- Democrats refusing to compromise or alter procedural norms, in the hopes that Republicans will also bind themselves to those norms. We see how well that’s worked out for the country.

    The law is a weapon, crafted by and for the sort of people who are just fine with Nazis killing off the untermenschen. It is not just, it is not noble, and it will not protect us just because we think it ought to protect everyone. That’s not what it was built for. It is a weapon built to be used against us, and nothing more.

  61. says

    PaulBC, don’t be ridiculous. Nazis have openly SAID they want to kill people like me, they HAVE KILLED people, and I’m supposed to just what, sit here and hope like hell they never get to me? No. I and every other American have the MORAL RESPONSIBILITY to take down as many of those swastika-waving bastards as possible.

    Vucodlak — Better a few dead Nazis than millions of dead disabled people, queers, Jews, and immigrants. There was literally a whole fucking WORLD WAR about this, dude. Quit enabling the Nazis.

  62. John Morales says

    WMDKitty, you are advocating murder too?

    Fine, that’s two people in this very thread who “have openly SAID they want to kill people”.

    (This is the thing with ideologues — bullshit words whilst ceding the high moral ground)

    —

    “Nazis Catholics have openly SAID they want to kill people like me, they HAVE KILLED people, and I’m supposed to just what, sit here and hope like hell they never get to me? No. I and every other American have the MORAL RESPONSIBILITY to take down as many of those swastikacrucifix-waving bastards as possible.” makes about as much sense. And it would feed their persecution complex no less.

    (But fine, abrogate the high moral ground, merely so you can vent)

  64. consciousness razor says

    There was literally a whole fucking WORLD WAR about this, dude. Quit enabling the Nazis.

    To use Akira’s argument above: it failed. There are still fascists, despite the gigantic fucking war all over the fucking place. And most “forget Hitler” (or so Akira alleges). Doesn’t exactly matter, because however it failed, you’re definitely not implying it’s a success.
    I mean, we could go well beyond WWII, since we have all of recorded history, filled to the brim with violence. Whatever else you may say about it, that is what led to where we are now, and that is exactly what you’re fucking complaining about. Remember? It has not worked to give you the thing you say you wanted. (What you really want is another question.)
    I’ll note that it’s not exactly “progressive” to clamor for more of the same old shit that’s always been hurting people. Normally at least, the idea is to do something other than the same old shit that hasn’t been working. Conservatives are instead the ones to be interested in conserving that shit, because some of them at least are quite content with the status quo. Does that describe you or not?
    Did you believe that so far it had all just been a very long exercise in pacifism, and that is what has not worked for us? So we should try something other than that? Somehow, the thought is, the real problem is that everyone was sorely lacking a violent asshole to make things right, and we were all just too stupid to get it. (Not sure what to make of neo-Nazis, if that’s what you think we need.) Anyway, simply put, nobody ever realized it until you brought it up, but you are just the sort of violent asshole we have always needed.
    Pretty sure that one’s a non-starter…. Maybe you believe some other absurd thing.
    You might think this time is just going to be different. Just different! No reason at all to think that. But you do promise that it will actually solve our problems, unlike all of the other times it hasn’t. Just a little more violence is all you’re asking for here (but not too much, not too little, not from “bad people,” not against you, etc.). And if somehow your recipe worked, you could at least say that much about it. But “somehow”? How? Well, you don’t know how. But you do have bullshit promises, and we’re supposed to believe them. Not a very tempting offer, I have to admit.

  65. aramad says

    Akira McKenzie
    @35
    Me: “Another idiotic assumption that ‘don’t assault people’ means ‘never do anything to oppose bad politics’.”

    Akira: “Right, because everything the mainstream Left has used up to now to stop them has worked SO well!…”

    Therefore… kill them?? This is a non sequitor. Fucking hell, not only are you morally bankrupt, you are also making plain old idiotic arguments. Also you did not address my point: since when did ‘don’t assault people’ ever mean ‘never do anything to oppose bad politics’? Question still remains unanswered.

    And as for whether the left’s measures have worked or not… we certainly do have a rising tide of fascistic and bigoted politics and public, but since when does that mean the efforts have failed? We can say with great confidence, that if there had been no opposition to this tide whatsoever, the rising extremism would have been even worse. So I guess that’s another shortfall of reason in your post.
    *

    @36
    Literal dehumanizing. The lurch towards extremism continues. Also, PZ, what ever happened to “the standard you ignore is the standard you accept”?
    *

    @39 “Also, it’s not “murder.” It’s never “murder” to kill a Nazi.”
    Yes it is. Murder is killing someone against their will.
    *

    @48 “Not in the Red State shithole where I’m stuck right now.”
    Really, how do you know this? Were you there in the 60s or so? What is your reference for comparison?

  66. logicalcat says

    Those nazis are begging for leftists like akira. They would use it as a means to bolster their ranks or as a shield to hide behind. They are already doing it with antifa despite antifa having zero kill count. The last thing we need is to make it real.

    Also the killing nazis side has stupid as hell arguments. Aparently murder isnt murder to these people. What you guys are doing right now is prosecuting thought crime which is what nazis would also like to do. In your rush to eradicate the threat you just became it.

  67. vucodlak says

    @ logicalcat, #66

    Those nazis are begging for leftists like akira. They would use it as a means to bolster their ranks or as a shield to hide behind.

    While I disagree with Akira and WMDKitty, Nazis always claim to be under existential threat from the Other. Have you seriously never heard them going on about “White Genocide?” It’s one of their biggest, and apparently most successful (if the number of fuckwits I’ve seen spouting that garbage are any indication) bits of propaganda, and if you dig down into it you find that all it really means is that is white people are having fewer babies than people of color. By their own choice. And let’s not forget all that anti-Semitic garbage about a vast Jewish conspiracies. Mein Kampf is nothing but a long, whiny pack of transparent lies but Nazis still love it and treat it as gospel.

    It doesn’t hurt Nazi recruiting or propaganda efforts one bit if no one at all comes along and threatens to kill them. They make shit up out of whole cloth all the time, and it’s a good deal more effective than “Look, see? Some rando in the comments on an obscure blog said they want to kill us all!” Even if Nazis did start trying to use comments like that to their advantage, the only people who wouldn’t laugh them off the internet are already Nazis.

    They are already doing it with antifa despite antifa having zero kill count. The last thing we need is to make it real.

    Seriously? “They make up terrible lies about us; it’s up to us to prove them wrong!”

    Fuck that noise.

    Also the killing nazis side has stupid as hell arguments.

    Clearly they’re not alone in that.

    What you guys are doing right now is prosecuting thought crime which is what nazis would also like to do.

    Jesus, how can one little sentence contain so much wrong. This is going to require a list:
    1.) No one is “prosecuting” anything. Some people are saying some things on the internet. Because what we say here can have meatspace consequences, I disagree with some of what’s being said, so I, too, am saying things on the internet. However, no one here is currently engaged in any action that could reasonably be construed as ‘prosecuting Nazis.’

    2.) Being a Nazi is not a “thought crime.” If a person confined their Nazism solely to their own thoughts, how would we ever know that they’re a Nazi? We wouldn’t. The only way we can know someone is a Nazi is if they act like a Nazi. What Nazis think isn’t what concerns me- it’s what they do.

    3.) What Nazis would most like to do is exterminate people for what we are, not what we think. I am queer, and I am mentally ill. Those are facets of my mind, not ideas I have embraced just because. I can’t decide to be straight, nor can I decide not to be mentally ill.

    Yes, it’s true that they’re not big fans of lefties either, but I can keep my political opinions to myself a hell of a lot easier than I can pretend to be straight or not bipolar.

    4.) Literally, the sentence before this one was you complaining that some people here were not calling murder “murder,” and here you’re doing the exact same thing. Nazis would murder us for what we are.

    We don’t get to hide behind comfy euphemisms, and neither do they.

  68. logicalcat says

    @Vucodluk.

    I should have said advocating for persecuting thought crime, not prosecuting. They are similar so my bad.

    And yes I know that nazis paint themselves as the victim, thats why I included what i said after how they paint antifa as the real bad guys. Nothing in your entire post is new nor is it countering what I said. I feel no remorse for nazis, but you know what? Killing them as preventative measure before they actually commit a crime, that gets normal ppl to not align with us. Moderates shield nazis on accident and alienating them by being violent psychopaths like akira helps nazis more than hurt them.

    Dont mistake me for those who think all violence against them is bad. But taking it to the irrational level akira has done is stupid.

    And it is a thought crime. Nazi sm is an ideology. It leads to violence yes, but until that happens its somones belief. I dont care about punching them or doxxing them or straight up having an extreme intolerance for shitlords with shit beliefs. But make no mistake, i am persecuting them for their beliefs. I can admit, you all can to. And if i would extend that extreme intolerance to its utmost extreme by including murder. I would now be killing them based on a belief. I made their thought a crime to be punished by. How do we know someone is a nazi if its a thought crime? The topic is literally about killing someone for what they are instead of what they’ve done. Maybe ask akira.

    Lastly, yes I know nazis would murder us all. Never said they wouldnt. And i have no fucking clue how you even arrived at the conclusion that I deny the existence of murdeeous nazis. What I want however is not to wantonly kill people, even if they are nazis when they havent actually done anything yet. This irrational bit of thinking eventualy leads to losing centrist support. And they are the real key to stoping nazis. Getting them on your side. Because they are the majority and making sure they are anti fascist along side with us and aware of the of how fascists obfuscate and lie is the best way to silence them.

    The left killing ppl without actual provocation (they cannot understand your reasons, they are centrists) will make it look like the nazis who are not calling themselves nazis because they obfuscate it, are the real victims.

    As for nazis exterminating people for what they are instead of what they think? Jews. You are forgeting that this is a religion. Religion is a belief. They made it a crime. They made thinking a certain way a crime. They made it a thought crime. Eventually this thought crime morphed into persecuting people for their percieved jewness arbitrarily cherry picking physical traits steriotypicaly associated with jews, but it was a thought crime first and still.

    And yes it is up to us to prove tjem wrong. Who the fuck else would do it? The nazis themselves? The clue less centrist? Centrists have to have it explained to them. Whos doing the explaining? Us.