To all the Christians who have persecution complexes due to people simply disagreeing with them, despite being the privileged majority religion in their country… Maybe this will put religious oppression in perspective for you:
[Asia] Bibi has been held in prison since June last year. The court heard she had been working as a farmhand in fields with other women, when she was asked to fetch drinking water.
Some of the other women – all Muslims – refused to drink the water as it had been brought by a Christian and was therefore “unclean”, according to Mrs Bibi’s evidence, sparking a row. The incident was forgotten until a few days later when Mrs Bibi said she was set upon by a mob. The police were called and took her to a police station for her own safety.
Shahzad Kamran, of the Sharing Life Ministry Pakistan, said: “The police were under pressure from this Muslim mob, including clerics, asking for Asia to be killed because she had spoken ill of the Prophet Mohammed.
“So after the police saved her life they then registered a blasphemy case against her.” He added that she had been held in isolation for more than a year before being sentenced to death on Monday. “The trial was clear,” he said. “She was innocent and did not say those words.”
While most blasphemy cases are successfully appealed in Pakistan, Bibi is still likely to be further harassed or even killed during the trial.
Situations like this are absolutely horrifying and really highlight the immature attitudes of some privileged Christians, like the one in my earlier post. Those “militant New Atheists” simply disagree with you and vocalize their disagreement. Notice how we’re not throwing you in jail or murdering you. Whining about how you’re a martyr because your feelings are hurt trivializes the deaths of millions of people who have been and continue to be killed in the name of religion.
Some religious people are so anti-blasphemy…until they realize their beliefs are blasphemous to someone else. How the tables do turn when you’re not in a position of privilege.
They love to FEEL persecuted because it brings them closer to their zombie lord. They just don’t care for actual persecution because it is, you know, unpleasant.Anyway, hurt feelings makes them sad, which is totally the same as imprisonment and assault and torture.
I saw the article earlier. What makes me feel good is that our tax dollars are over there to bolster that Western-style democracy.
For some religious people, they claim persecution so they can gain power and then persecute those they don’t like. Then they’ll call it “righteousness.”
You know, we ALL need a smack upside the head to restore our sense of perspective occasionally. Some of us just need it more frequently and harder than others.
You notice the defense isn’t “words aren’t a justification for putting somebody to death”. It’s “she did not say those words”. While I understand in that culture with religious law, it’s the only argument that might work, it’s still a horrible indictment of that country’s legal system.
I thought blasphemy was a victimless crime. Not anymore.
Come to Sudan and see what religious oppression is all about, here in South Sudan the mainly Christian and animist population are viewed as inconsequential, and in Darfur the non-Muslims were eliminated almost entirely. I live among oppressed people, perhaps the whinging wankers of the bible belt should join me to see what oppression really is!
There was a story on Pharyngula a few months ago which was sort of similar in content and theme where a christian family were living in a (I think) Pakistani village. The father was a policeman and when it was known that he and his family were Christians, the local clerics gathered a mob together and, while the father was at work, attacked the wife and kids in their home and killed them, or something like that.Anyway, that story turned out to be fake. I’m not saying this one is, but there is something about it that strikes me as similar to the one of Pharyngula.
Excellent point.
Oh please, what tax dollars? If you’re talking about the myth that the US spends a lot of money on foreign aid that’s bullshit. The US gives almost nothing in international aid. In reality, even the Principality of Liechtenstein gives more in foreign aid than the US (For the ignorant Americans, Liechtenstein is a tiny country of 35 ooo people in Europe, yet they donate more in aid than the US, the biggest economy in the world. I’m sick and tired of hearing this lie repeated about how much aid the US donates. Bullshit).On the other hand, if you’re talking about your illegal war of aggression, all your tax dollars are doing is killing innocent civilians and destabilising a nuclear-armed country. So you don’t get to whine about your “tax dollars” while you’re murdering innocent woman and children on a daily basis.On the third hand, if you are being facetious then I apologise. It’s sometimes hard on the internet to tell if someone is being serious or sarcastic.
Are you referring to foreign aid in terms of percentage of gross national income or overall monetary value? You need to specify your terms, and cite some damn facts if you’re going to go mouthing off. The USA spends the most per year in overall monetary terms, bar none. Not to mention overall consensus on all foreign aid is usually that it’s so earmarked and tied up in conditions that it doesn’t do shit, no matter the amount. Unless you want to argue that private US charities don’t do any good? Didn’t think so. And FYI, we’re not in any wars. We’re in a Congress-authorized military engagement along with the UK and Afghan government to pursue terrorists that attacked us on Sept 11, 2001. It’s not in anyway illegal, and it’s not pursuing any formal government system. It’s called Operation Enduring Freedom. If you were referring to Operation Iraqi Freedom, please note that it has ended and there is only a small contingency left in Iraq in an advisory capacity. Also note that it was a joint operation with the UK as well. So yah, check your facts. And the last time Liechtenstein made the news was when they were caught letting mafia bosses launder money through their borders. Also, they were secret Nazis. I’m not saying the US government is by any means ideal, but try to stop sounding like such a butt-hurt baby. I notice you didn’t compare the US to your government of choice. Tell me, where is this magical land that you live in where the foreign aid is greater than the domestic and has no aggression towards other countries? Sounds pretty sweet. I’d consider moving there if it existed, and the taxes weren’t over 70%.
Wow, how elegant and subtle religions are! Really beautiful moral teachings for life and spirituality. And people wonder why some of us wish religion were wiped off the earth.As for the persecution complex, it’s understandable. Being privileged, they are the ones who have the most to lose if something changes, so any hint of change is seen as a threat against their position.
Having your military invade and occupy another nation is a war, regardless of any Congressional double-speak to the contrary. US is engaged in a military occupation of Iraw, that is not the end of a war, but the continuation of it. ” It’s not in anyway illegal” It is under international law, including treaties signed and ratified by the US (this applies to both Afganistan and Iraq). The invasions alone are violations, the subsequent abuses by the US military are war crimes and crimes against humanity.Military expendatures dwarf all others in the US budget put together. Domestic aide makes up a tiny portion of the budget and foreign aide makes up an even tinier sliver. 70% of US income taxes is spent on the military, whereas roughly 7% is spent on all US domestic aide (including programs like social security). Only in the US would people be willing to spend more money to kill a child overseas than to feed one at home.
Unrelated, but wondering if you’ve checked out Steve Martin’s “Atheists Don’t Have No Songs.” Makes me think of your X-Mas carol contest. This atheist doesn’t sing the blues, but loves having Sundays free, watching football, and rock ‘n’ roll. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…
Indeed, and then there is actual persecution of Xians. I wonder whether American Xians realize that most of us demon non-theists would attack this with everything we had if possible, because we’re angry about persecution of any type from any source. It just so happens that nothing makes for crimes against humanity like religion does.
Oh the martyr complex Christians in the U.S. know all about stories like these. They love them. I don’t mean to imply that they don’t genuinely feel bad for this woman, but that these stories actually feed their martyr complex. It doesn’t matter that it happened an ocean away in a very different place, it still means that all Christians are persecuted and we’re only a step away from implementing Sharia in the U.S. so that the atheists can beat the Christians to death with dead babies.
Deck us all with Boston Charlie,Walla Walla, Wash., an’ Kalamazoo!Nora’s freezin’ on the trolley,Swaller dollar cauliflower alley-garoo!Don’t we know archaic barrel,Lullaby Lilla boy, Louisville Lou?Trolley Molly don’t love Harold,Boola boola Pensacoola hullabaloo!Bark us all bow-wows of folly,Polly wolly cracker n’ too-da-loo!Hunky Dory’s pop is lolly gaggin’ on the wagon,Willy, folly go through!Donkey Bonny brays a carol,Antelope Cantaloup, ‘lope with you!Chollie’s collie barks at Barrow,Harum scarum five alarum bung-a-loo!Lyrics by Walt Kelly, music by Traditional (whoever she is)
Of course this kind of reminder that things are worse elsewhere, due to Muslim oppression of Christians, would most likely backfire because you’re not exactly talking with a rational person. However I do think it’s an important point to make. Our country enjoys freedoms that need protecting, from religion, from majorities, and even from vocal minorities.
Are these people so insecure and uncertain about the validity of their beliefs that mere words are threatening to them? Doesn’t sound like “true belief” to me. Then again, these gods love their flock to be violent. Lead by example and all that.
persecution is worse than killing–Quran, 2:217
I think this may be the story you’re referring to.
I don’t think he’s talking about foreign aid, he’s talking about the military support we’ve been giving to Pakistan for decades.
A military engagement is a war. Just because Congress hasn’t declared war doesn’t mean it isn’t a war.
Also, we’re doing a lot more in Afghanistan than pursuing the people who attacked us on September 11. In fact, the people who ordered that attack have been in Pakistan for years.
That makes it even worse!
I’m pretty sure he is being facetious.
Well, in that case, I’ve already apologised :P
“if possible” ?I wonder what’s stopping you? It would appear that these situations are of more concern as a complaint against American Christians than as injustice.
the only thing i can think to say has to do with propaganda and the media. i am not in pakistan right now. nor do i speak the various languages found there. i am a person who knows a bit about that region of the world, and the american media, having spent a lot of time with both. propaganda is powerful, and a single piece of propaganda has power upon “both sides” of those involved, and more. whenever i hear a story about religious conflict, i remember that there are people who treat myth as fact, and that the media, almost all of it, treats those people as sane and logical. even as many members of the media themselves are as atheist as i am. i don’t know what happened here. i do know that right now? “the powers that be” in my country want to continue to spend billions a year on senseless war in the middle east, so a handful of rich people and the corporations they control can control the natural resources there. thus, a story like this? interests me very little. it’s a true, sad fact on our planet where billions live, die and suffer every day: mobs kill the innocent, wealthy people tell lies, and insecurity causes pain and death. i wasn’t there and nobody here was either. who knows what “really happened” or why this story is all over liberal blogs i read, this week.
“I wonder what’s stopping you?”Maybe the fact that it is utterly impossible for outsiders to go into a foreign culture and forcibly change their attitudes about religious tolerance.
The existence of such unjustified feelings of persecution are what really proves privilege… like when men moan casually about advantages given to women, or white folks moan about support for cultural groups for ethnic minorities…(Yes, I am a white male…)
Worse, while this incident is genuine, many of these types of stories are fabricated outright. PZ posted a story once a few months ago and found out later that the source of this story was a Christian site infamous for this and that the people involved (which included some very public civil positions) were not mentioned on any local new sources.
Kim, how can you be so damned stupid? We do talk of the Vietnam War and the Iraq War because our military was fighting over there! Denying they should be called wars is right-wing spin.
Indeed, we should have sacked both Pakistan and Saudi Arabia by now if we really wanted to root out Al-Quida. Most of the 9-11 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia. I think the fact that it is an absolute monarchy dominated by Wahabism, a fundamentalist sect of Sunni Islam, makes it no better than Afghanistan under the Taliban. But we overthrew one instead of the other for one reason: One has oil it wants to sell us, and the other does not!I’m sooooooooooooooooooo tired of being scammed! Aren’t you?
Yeah, because Christians are the only ones with a martyr complex. All it takes is about 5 minutes of talking with a radical gay activist for them to bring up how they were persecuted in the holocaust and would be put to death TODAY in Muslim countries. I was literally told those exact things by two different people a couple weeks ago. Lots of people use irrelevant persecution stories — get off your high horse.
Those things are true though and homosexuals still you know, get the crap beaten out in the United States on a regular basis, so uh, not fair comperation.